highaltitude.log.20160118

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[00:04] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[05:56] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DC2EH-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DC2EH-11
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[06:01] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DC2EH-6 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DC2EH-6
[06:02] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DO2EIM-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DO2EIM-11
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[08:10] <Vooloo> hi, I am starting a HAB project. Do you recommend a raspberry model a+ or a arduino? also is there are ready made APRS tracker for these to buy?
[08:10] <Vooloo> I would also like a live feed from a camera during the entire flight (or almost) is this possible?
[08:16] <SM0ULC-Reb> 2nd, live as video och continous pictures such as SSDV?
[08:18] <Vooloo> SSDV
[08:21] <SM0ULC-Reb> possible
[08:21] <SM0ULC-Reb> usually over RTTY then
[08:22] <SA6BSS-Mike> look at pi in the sky kit http://www.pi-in-the-sky.com/
[08:23] <Vooloo> how do I know if there is RTTY coverage in my country?
[08:23] <SA6BSS-Mike> you do the tracking oc
[08:23] <SA6BSS-Mike> wher di u live?
[08:24] <Vooloo> Sweden
[08:24] <SM0ULC-Reb> oh
[08:24] <SM0ULC-Reb> Välkommen
[08:24] <SA6BSS-Mike> me to :)
[08:24] <Vooloo> :D
[08:24] <SA6BSS-Mike> we nd reb
[08:24] <SM0ULC-Reb> Vooloo: where?
[08:24] <Vooloo> Göteborg
[08:24] <SA6BSS-Mike> we help you track :)
[08:24] <SM0ULC-Reb> me in Sthlm
[08:24] <SA6BSS-Mike> falköping
[08:24] <Vooloo> / Borås
[08:24] <SM0ULC-Reb> Grannar!
[08:25] <SA6BSS-Mike> coolt, väldigt nära :)
[08:25] <Vooloo> Ballongen går alltid österut med prediction
[08:25] <SA6BSS-Mike> japp, nästan alltid
[08:25] <SM0ULC-Reb> Vooloo: nästan så ja.
[08:26] <Vooloo> Måste åka till norge om den inte skall hamna på öland
[08:26] <SA6BSS-Mike> ska vi starta ett eget chatt fönster, david kan du fixA?
[08:27] <SA6BSS-Mike> vilken höjd siktar du på ? 300000m?
[08:27] <SA6BSS-Mike> 30000m
[08:27] <Vooloo> Ja
[08:27] <SA6BSS-Mike> ok
[08:28] <SA6BSS-Mike> vindarna ändras något frammåt vår/sommar
[08:40] <Vaizki> jei jättekul det är en svensk talande hab kanal!
[08:41] <SM0ULC-Reb> :)
[08:41] <SA6BSS-Mike> fasen, kan du så bra svenska :)
[08:42] <Vaizki> vet du.. vi måste ha 7 års av svensk i skolan
[08:42] <Vaizki> or something like that :d
[08:42] <Vaizki> not av.. hmm
[08:43] <Vaizki> anywaaaaays.. swedish is the other official language of Finland in case you were not aware.. it's a compulsory subject in school and you can't even graduate from university without passing a language test
[08:45] <SA6BSS-Mike> yeah I heard! but not anymore
[08:45] <SA6BSS-Mike> ?
[08:47] <Vaizki> not sure.. but no offence, I think it's a big handicap that we have two compulsory languages (Finnish + Swedish) that everyone has to learn and spend ~10 years of their life on.. because neither of those languages is very useful in the global economy.
[08:47] <Vaizki> every time I have had business dealings with people in Sweden we have spoken English
[08:49] <Vaizki> well it's the same with Spanish really, I know enough Spanish to get work done in the language but I always speak English with the customers because that way the language advantage is mine and not theirs
[08:49] <gonzo_> in the uk, the secons language (optional) taught in schools is usually french
[08:50] <Vaizki> well we have swedish + an additional compulsory language which used to be spread between english, german, french and russian
[08:50] <Vaizki> but everyone in their right mind does english
[08:51] <Vaizki> and then we get a third foreign language later .. and a fourth one.. optional ones :)
[08:51] <gonzo_> we do have the advantage of having imposed english on the world. But chinese or even polish would be more useful as a second language at the mo
[08:51] <Vaizki> so before you get to university you can have 4 foreign languages if you want
[08:51] <gonzo_> plenty of native brits even have trouble with english
[08:52] <Vaizki> even plenty of native brits.. you mean? :)
[08:52] <Vaizki> sorry!
[08:52] <gonzo_> but we are lazy regarding languages. There just isn't the pre4ssure to learn any additional ones. It's embarrsing really
[08:53] <gonzo_> I was meaning, those who learned english here as thier first language. plenty of them can bearly speak it
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[09:07] <Vaizki> barelt!
[09:07] <Vaizki> barely even.. I can't type :(
[09:08] <Vaizki> it's even worse in the US so you are ok.. I went to school in the US with 2 months worth of English lessons before we moved there. a year later I won the school spelling bee.
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[09:08] <Vaizki> which was a bit embarassing for the other students...
[09:09] <daveake> Like fisjing in a pond
[09:09] <Vaizki> of course in those spelling bees it's 50% luck which word you get in the finals
[09:09] <daveake> -j+h
[09:17] <AndyEsser> morning HABers
[09:20] <daveake> morning HAButante
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[09:25] <gonzo_> I thought you were showing off your norwigean dave?
[09:27] <daveake> That wouldn't take long
[09:27] <AndyEsser> Y'all seen the landing?
[09:27] <daveake> Been there lots of times; all I know is "takk" and "god morgen"
[09:27] <gonzo_> nor me, I can't even spell it
[09:28] <daveake> oh, and "hei"
[09:28] <gonzo_> we had a guy at work, called morgan. So you can imagine the std joke
[09:28] <daveake> ha
[09:30] <SM0ULC-Reb> daveake: aprs with pie-sky-shield should be doable?
[09:31] <daveake> There's a separate APRS shield to fit
[09:31] <daveake> So you would need PITS (for the GPS and PSU) plus APRS boards
[09:32] <russss> https://www.instagram.com/p/BAqirNbwEc0/
[09:32] <AndyEsser> russss: just had this on loop for about 5-10 mins
[09:32] <AndyEsser> :)
[09:32] <daveake> so close
[09:32] <AndyEsser> I love the fact that SpaceX has an instagram of a 'failed' rocket landing...
[09:32] <AndyEsser> imagine NASA doing that
[09:33] <daveake> it did land
[09:33] <russss> NASA has broadcasted a fair few failures live
[09:33] <daveake> it was the standing-up bit it failed at
[09:33] <russss> yeah that landing couldn't have been better, shame about the leg
[09:33] <AndyEsser> It was perfect in the bullseye
[09:34] <AndyEsser> given wind and wave behaviour - I'd personally take that as a win
[09:36] <SM0ULC-Reb> daveake: ah ok!
[09:37] <daveake> The PITS radio is the wrong frequency for APRS
[09:38] <daveake> Also APRS needs to be driven from the PWM pin
[09:42] <SM0ULC-Reb> ah
[09:43] <gonzo_> the media will give them a panning anyway. Afterall, when the team landed a probe on a comet, all they could worry about was the spokesman's tie
[09:43] <AndyEsser> And Mission Control dudes Hair
[09:44] <AndyEsser> and JPL dudes shirt
[09:44] <AndyEsser> it's like.... come on... priorities
[09:45] <gonzo_> the media seems to be loaded with people who have little grasp of what they are reporting on (or possible their audiences grasp)_ so latch on to what their little minds can understand
[09:46] <daveake> I get fed up of saying "it's not space you know" to media types
[09:48] <gonzo_> 'B' ark, for the lot of them
[09:48] <daveake> Yeah but who's going to keep my mobile phone clean?
[09:49] <Vooloo> guess Ima use PITS for me balloon
[09:51] <eroomde> Vooloo: don't want to build your own flight computer?
[09:54] <Vooloo> not really
[09:54] <Vooloo> Im building a dashboard, its enough of a project
[09:55] <Vooloo> and the balloon itself
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[10:05] <mfa298> Vooloo: for APRS note that not every where allows its use airborne so you might want to check the local rules. It also requires an Amateur Radio license so if you don't have one you'll need to either get the license or team up with someone that does.
[10:05] <daveake> building a balloon ?
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[10:08] <eroomde> a dashboard?
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[10:08] <LunarWork> hello
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[10:09] <Vooloo> mfa298: I know
[10:10] <Vooloo> daveake: yea
[10:10] <daveake> plastic superpressure? something else?
[10:11] <Vooloo> would be nice if habhub supported images
[10:12] <Vooloo> near space balloon
[10:13] <daveake> You said you were making the balloon. If you mean a standard latex weather balloon then you just buy those rather than making them.
[10:14] <daveake> And yeslive flight images can be uploaded to habhub, but not via APRS
[10:14] <Vooloo> no I mean the payload :P
[10:14] <daveake> ah, would be good to use the right words :/
[10:15] <Vooloo> sorry ;)
[10:15] <Vooloo> habhub supports ssdv on the map view?
[10:15] <daveake> There's a separate ssdv page
[10:15] <daveake> But presumably this is why you want your own dashboard, to pull the map and images together
[10:16] <Vooloo> ye
[10:29] <fab4space> http://sodera.org/# wow if it is gonna be 100$ price!
[10:30] <fab4space> The SoDeRa is the first cheap open source SOftware DEfined RAdio that can both send and receive
[10:30] <fab4space> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/revolutionizing-wireless-communication-maarten-ectors
[10:31] <eroomde> so you're building the payload
[10:32] <AndyEsser> "Loop statements may have an else clause"
[10:32] <eroomde> that's why I asked why not build your flight computer?
[10:32] <AndyEsser> What manner of horrid have you guys sent me down...
[10:32] <eroomde> the flight computer is the payload (the rest is just a box)
[10:33] <eroomde> and most people build their own flight computers and enjoy it a lot
[10:33] <Vooloo> I thought you meant the software
[10:33] <eroomde> hardware and software
[10:33] <AndyEsser> Vooloo: highly recommend building your own flight computer :)
[10:34] <AndyEsser> It's fun :)
[10:34] <Vooloo> I am probably going to use a pi with raspbian lite
[10:34] <eroomde> AndyEsser has just been doing this after the last few weeks. seems to have enjoyed it so far, not to mention learned a lot
[10:34] <daveake> More you put in (e.g. build tracker, code it) the more you get out (satisfaction)
[10:34] <AndyEsser> ^
[10:34] <AndyEsser> Vooloo: nothing lite about a pi :)
[10:34] <daveake> satisfaction + experience/knowledge
[10:35] <mfa298> fab4space: for first I guess that depends on how you define cheap, I suspect many would have already described the HackRF as a cheap opensource (and open hardware)) SDR that can send and receive.
[10:35] <Vooloo> Just concerned with the amount of peripherals I need
[10:35] <daveake> gps radio cpu done
[10:35] <eroomde> yep
[10:36] <Vooloo> pi camera for live feed
[10:36] <Vooloo> It seems go produce fine images
[10:36] <AndyEsser> Vooloo: my tracker, that is currently just on a breadboard - has less than 20 components - including the passives
[10:36] <Vooloo> did you make your board from scratch?
[10:37] <daveake> As simple as this (not mine) http://www.daveakerman.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/ardpro_jimbob_real.jpg.jpg
[10:37] <Vooloo> there is no way I am doing that xD
[10:37] <gonzo_> but a stand alone, simple and reliable tracker is well worth having. Then if the pi/pc based complicated stuff fails in flight, you still have a chance of recovering it, or at least enjoying tracking the rest of the flight
[10:37] <eroomde> Vooloo: that's easy!
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[10:39] <Vooloo> so two GPS?
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[10:39] <Vooloo> I looked at the TK102
[10:40] <daveake> Have a read of http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=1732
[10:40] <daveake> TK102 is a useful backup; just don't rely on it actually working
[10:40] <AndyEsser> Vooloo: I did yes
[10:41] <AndyEsser> it has a simple 8-bit microcontroller that controls the Radio (NTX2B) and reads the GPS from the Ublox Max M8C component
[10:42] <AndyEsser> speaking of GPS - what antenna do people recommend for it? I'm guessing I just have 2x SMA connectors on my PCB, 1 for the radio and 1 for GPS and then connect appropriate antennae?
[10:42] <Vooloo> yeeeeeaaa, I'm gonna use a pi ;)
[10:43] <eroomde> you can attach a radio and gps to the pi easily enough
[10:43] <daveake> Yeah you can get a magmount GPS antenna for a few £, with SMA plug on the end. These usually have 3-5m of cable too which you might want to cut short and put a new SMA plug on the end. They also have a magnet (duh) which you can prize out to save a bit of weight
[10:43] <eroomde> AndyEsser: yes.
[10:44] <Vooloo> eroomde: got a good radio?
[10:44] <eroomde> the reason for cutting the cable down, other than weight, is the losses that we talked about on sat
[10:44] <fab4space> mfa298, 100$ could be cheap isn't it?
[10:44] <eroomde> Vooloo: the ntx2b is very popular for hab here in the UK
[10:45] <gonzo_> AndyEsser, if you use one of UPUs breakout GPS boards, that has it's own antenna and for the TX ant, just a bot of wire soldered to the board. Save s a bit of weight and less to go wrong
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[10:46] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: yea, the problem with the breakout board is it doesn't expose some of the pins I want :)
[10:46] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: but might do that for my first launch - have the breakout board at home for testing
[10:47] <gonzo_> I sonder the tx ant (bit of wire) directly to the NTX2 and the groundplane wires to the tin plate box
[10:47] <daveake> AndyEsser If you're putting a camera in the payload, then my preference is to put the GPS aerial outside, on top of the payload box, where it's further away from any interference the camera may generate
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[10:48] <Vooloo> eroomde: for aprs?
[10:48] <AndyEsser> daveake: yea - I'd always prefer to run with a proper antenna
[10:48] <eroomde> Vooloo: no, we can't use APRS in the uk
[10:48] <Vooloo> eroomde: oh
[10:48] <eroomde> we can't use our amateur radio licenses airborne here
[10:48] <Vooloo> do you have something equivalent?
[10:49] <eroomde> we have sort of invented our own thing
[10:49] <craag> AndyEsser: http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_65&product_id=119
[10:49] <eroomde> which is why ballooning has got quite popular here, i think
[10:49] <daveake> See http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=1732 :)
[10:49] <AndyEsser> craag: active antenna? That'd require me to do something fancy at the board end, right?
[10:49] <daveake> Yes, and with a much (much, much) stronger and more helpful community than elsewhere
[10:49] <eroomde> we use rtty on 434MHz usually, and other amateur radio enthusiasts volunteer to tune in and help track the bnalloons
[10:50] <Vooloo> I see
[10:50] <craag> AndyEsser: Are you using your own board, or a PITS?
[10:50] <eroomde> we have written a bit of software which gathers the decoded messages and puts them on the online map at habhub.org/tracker
[10:50] <AndyEsser> on board
[10:50] <AndyEsser> own board*
[10:50] <craag> ah ok, yes it would.
[10:50] <AndyEsser> but I'm going to shush for the moment to reduce SNR for Vooloo
[10:50] <eroomde> tracker.habhub.org sorry
[10:50] <craag> rgr
[10:50] <Vooloo> I'm pretty sure I can use aprs tho
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[10:50] <eroomde> where are you?
[10:51] <Vooloo> Sweden
[10:51] <AndyEsser> aww, jealous!
[10:51] <daveake> Try not to lanbd in a tree then :)
[10:51] <daveake> Aim for a frozen lake instead :/
[10:51] <Vooloo> Probably wil land in a lake
[10:52] <eroomde> there are a few swedes here
[10:52] <eroomde> who can probably help with specific local advice
[10:52] <Vooloo> So I have to be done before the snow is gone, which goes fast
[10:52] <eroomde> where in sweden are you? I was based in Uppsala for a bit
[10:52] <Vooloo> Gothenburg
[10:52] <eroomde> oh nice
[10:52] <Vooloo> The wind blows east, which is godo for me
[10:52] <eroomde> good for the winds
[10:52] <eroomde> yes
[10:53] <Vooloo> But checking the prediction it blows all the way to Öland, the island :S
[10:53] <Vooloo> How accurate is that thing?
[10:54] <eroomde> it's honestly pretty good
[10:54] <eroomde> if you get a decent parachute and fill your balloon accurately so you get the ascent rate the same as the predictor
[10:54] <Vooloo> Worst case scenario I will drive up to norway
[10:54] <daveake> e.g. I did a 100km flight and missed target by 2km
[10:55] <daveake> but 10-20km radius isn't a bad estimate of accuracy
[10:55] <Vooloo> Is there a good parachute supplier in UK that ships EU?
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[10:55] <Vooloo> that and the balloon is the hardest thing to get
[10:56] <daveake> http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Welcome.html
[10:56] <daveake> ^ balloons and shutes and other bits and pieces
[10:56] <daveake> chutes
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[10:57] <Vooloo> ok will check them
[10:57] <Vooloo> have you ever launched at night?
[10:57] <eroomde> yes
[10:58] <eroomde> i wouldn't do it for my first launch
[10:58] <Vooloo> can you see the ground lights good?
[10:58] <eroomde> well, i might, but my 'giving helpful, responsible advice' inner voice would suggest not doing it for your first attempt
[10:58] <eroomde> you can sort of, but often the exposures are so long that the pictures are full of streaks
[10:58] <eroomde> ]because the payload is swining around
[10:59] <Vooloo> I wont, just curious what the image looks like
[10:59] <daveake> unimpressive
[10:59] <eroomde> yeah, not that exciting
[10:59] <eroomde> but sunrise is great!
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[10:59] <daveake> http://www.daveakerman.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/2013-12-28-16-11-33-CLOUDY-807-Fixed.jpeg
[11:00] <daveake> Sunrise/sunset better as eroomde says
[11:00] <daveake> This was a sunset one http://www.daveakerman.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/2013-12-28-16-44-33-CLOUDY-810.jpeg
[11:01] <daveake> Benus just visible in the middle there
[11:01] <eroomde> https://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/3740894370/in/album-72157621752577188/
[11:01] <daveake> V
[11:01] <daveake> nice
[11:01] <AndyEsser> Motion to rename Venus to Benus!
[11:01] <daveake> Motion to fix my eyesight
[11:02] <AndyEsser> eroomde: what approximate altitude was that?
[11:02] <Vooloo> Wow you can see venus from up there?
[11:02] <eroomde> 32km?
[11:02] <eroomde> 30km?
[11:03] <eroomde> unsure
[11:03] <eroomde> something like that
[11:03] <Vooloo> Those clouds are cool
[11:03] <AndyEsser> eroomde: these pictures prove the earth is flat
[11:03] <AndyEsser> :)
[11:04] <eroomde> Vooloo: if you want to see some of them stitched together: http://i.imgur.com/OktESIh.jpg
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[11:06] <AndyEsser> I'll be in my bunk
[11:06] <Vooloo> do you angle your camera or just point it straight?
[11:06] <eroomde> i think that was angled about 15-20 degrees down
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[11:19] <eroomde> the problem with retina screens is that when i'm not on one i keep thinking my eyesight is going blurry when i look at datasheets
[11:19] <criticalmass> Morning all. Back to work this week so installed an IRC client on my phone, just so I don't miss you all too much.
[11:21] <criticalmass> Does anyone have any experience with CadSoft Eagle?
[11:21] <eroomde> lol
[11:22] <eroomde> (which is to say, yes)
[11:22] <mfa298> fab4space: more than I'd probably argue that the HackRF is also cheap, so was the first and it's open Source and open Hardware.
[11:25] <eroomde> criticalmass: if you have eagle questions, just throw them to this channel as seeds to a pavement
[11:25] <eroomde> and the circuit pigeons will land and peck at them
[11:25] <eroomde> and possibly shit on you as they leave
[11:25] <AndyEsser> lol
[11:25] <AndyEsser> beautiful metaphors as ever eroomde
[11:26] <Laurenceb_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRtzNRKJqqg&feature=youtu.be
[11:29] <criticalmass> Ahahaha, good to know. Is Eagle the industry standard free PCB design software these days? I've found a board that has been designed in Eagle but need do make an adjustment before I send to print. Don't want to spent too much time learning it if I'm not likely to use it again.
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[11:30] <russss> criticalmass: there are an increasing number of people using kicad now, which is free-as-in-open-source rather than limited-free like Eagle
[11:30] <eroomde> industry probably does not use eagle
[11:31] <eroomde> but it's still very popular in hobby circles
[11:31] <russss> but I think Eagle is still a bit easier to use, and you're likely to find more tutorials online for it
[11:31] <eroomde> probably the most popular, and certainly there are lots of parts libraries for it
[11:32] <eroomde> i have probably layed out hundreds of boards with eagle and 1 with kicad (which I am currently learning)
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[11:32] <eroomde> and i might slowly switch over to kicad
[11:33] <russss> hopefully kicad will become the standard
[11:34] <mfa298> the impression I've been getting is if you're new to designing PCBs kicad is possibly the way to go, but prepare for a bit of learning curve which ever way you go
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[11:37] <criticalmass> OK, thanks chaps. So what I might do is ask if somebody with some Eagle experience would mind making my adjustment so I can get the boards printed, then I can start learning kicad to redesign from scratch.
[11:38] <eroomde> what is the adjustment you need?
[11:39] <criticalmass> 4 status leds are pull down but need to be pull up. That's it at the moment.
[11:39] <eroomde> lob the files up somewhere
[11:40] <criticalmass> Amazing, thank you. Probably won't be able to do it until this evening, but I'll let you know.
[11:41] <eroomde> ah, i'm not around this eve but ping me if no one else does it
[11:42] <Laurenceb_> http://i.imgur.com/ONXGKov.png
[11:42] <Laurenceb_> FTS?
[11:50] <AndyEsser> Is the ascent rate of a balloon constant? or does it decrease with altitude?
[11:51] <daveake> Roughly constant
[11:51] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Unless its a floater
[11:52] <daveake> :)
[11:52] <AndyEsser> I really dislike the word floater... summons terrible images in my mind
[11:52] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Look up then rather than down ;-)
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[11:52] <AndyEsser> Geoff-G8DHE_: heh
[11:52] <AndyEsser> daveake: cheers
[11:52] <daveake> After recent eye activity I have plenty of floaters here, so I tend to agree :/
[11:53] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Not done anything nasty to your eye I hope ?
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[11:53] <fsphil> AndyEsser: you need to flush that image from your mind
[11:53] <daveake> old age + very short sighted. Needed cryotherapy and laser treatment to weld the retina on
[11:54] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Ooh, not so nice has it all settled down now ?
[11:54] <daveake> yeah getting better
[11:54] <AndyEsser> fsphil: :)
[11:54] <AndyEsser> bad man
[11:54] <daveake> First week wasn't fun as I had to stay horizontal 24/7
[11:55] <AndyEsser> :(
[11:55] <fsphil> yes /me hangs head in shame
[11:55] <Geoff-G8DHE_> That's good then, thought you'd been a bit quiet.
[11:55] <daveake> AndyEsser Light payloads + large balloon results in a barely inflated balloon that rises slowly (say 2m/s) before the shap improves and it accelerates
[11:55] <daveake> yeah that's why
[11:55] <daveake> (being quiet)
[12:04] <AndyEsser> 27 mins until lunch...needs to hurry up, I'm freezing and starving
[12:05] <AndyEsser> (Not literally freezing and starving obviously... dramatic effect)
[12:05] <fsphil> you need dramatic music and a big red beeping count-down timer
[12:06] <AndyEsser> I remember doing a midnight software launch at one company - starting playing The Final Countdown as it got closer :)
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[12:06] <fsphil> ok not yet or beeping, https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=f_kA3IbS4m4#t=419
[12:07] <fsphil> red*
[12:07] <AndyEsser> haha
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[12:08] <fsphil> unzipping an image file direct from zip to the SD card. linux is great sometimes
[12:08] <AndyEsser> http://inception.davepedu.com/
[12:08] <AndyEsser> Need this to trigger at 12:30
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[12:12] <AndyEsser> woo... python function to take ascent and decent rate and apogee and show a graph which shows the ascent profile
[12:12] <fsphil> lunch here is an hour later
[12:12] <AndyEsser> (simple I know - but at least it's a real world use of python)
[12:13] <fsphil> I must try the ipython stuff
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[12:13] <fsphil> it looks handy. close as we'll get to a CSI-style interface :)
[12:13] <russss> I love ipython
[12:14] <AndyEsser> I'm a little bit in love with ipython notebook
[12:14] <AndyEsser> damn you all
[12:14] <AndyEsser> :P
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[12:35] <eroomde> working lunch https://www.dropbox.com/s/hpa8303k79a1hm1/2016-01-18%2012.23.38.jpg?dl=0
[12:36] <eroomde> hashtag RocketEngineersOfInstagram
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[13:16] <Vooloo> is industrial grade helium without oxygen important?
[13:16] <Vooloo> or does the other one work too
[13:16] <daveake> unimportant
[13:18] <RealBorg> the cheapest will work fine
[13:18] <RealBorg> purity is important for chemistry and welding
[13:18] <eroomde> but you still want >99% purity
[13:19] <eroomde> unless you can get like 96% for super-cheaps
[13:21] <AndyEsser> eroomde: hard start to the week?
[13:21] <AndyEsser> :P
[13:21] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ZS5LT-9_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ZS5LT-9_chase
[13:22] Action: fsphil just had soup :(
[13:23] <AndyEsser> chicken wrap from the tesco deli :)
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[13:38] <eroomde> AndyEsser: rather nice
[13:38] <eroomde> monday lunch is about using up leftovers
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[13:41] <AndyEsser> left over wine?
[13:41] <eroomde> yes
[13:41] <AndyEsser> :P
[13:43] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/7u74May <- can I claim to be a scientist now?
[13:43] <AndyEsser> :P
[13:44] <daveake> Not till you get the descent right, no :)
[13:45] <AndyEsser> it's incorrect?
[13:45] <daveake> Yup
[13:45] <daveake> What happens when a parachute tries to work in 1% atmosphere ?
[13:45] <AndyEsser> This isn't accurate ;)
[13:45] <AndyEsser> hehe
[13:46] <adamgreig> if you want to be an actual scientist you have to get the ascent right too
[13:46] <AndyEsser> Hmm...
[13:46] Action: AndyEsser looks up parachute data
[13:46] <daveake> air density rather than parachute
[13:46] <adamgreig> perhaps watch ed's ukhas conf parachute talk :P
[13:47] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: I have - couple of times :)
[13:48] <AndyEsser> daveake: well I was assuming that the parachute datasheet contains it's efficiency at various air air densities?
[13:48] <eroomde> s/density/density(altitude)/
[13:48] <eroomde> 'parachute datasheet'
[13:48] <eroomde> so sweet!
[13:48] <AndyEsser> haha
[13:48] <AndyEsser> surely parachute manufacturers release data on how their chutes perform?
[13:48] <eroomde> some bloke called tony sewing some material together and pulling a Cd number from the depths of his bottom to put on a webpage
[13:49] <AndyEsser> fine!
[13:49] <eroomde> they do in The Real World
[13:49] <AndyEsser> I shall take all the data I collect from all my launches to slowly refine this over time :)
[13:49] <eroomde> but not hobby rocketry cottage industries
[13:49] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RPF-A1 after 032 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RPF-A1
[13:49] <AndyEsser> also pretty sure it won't go from +5m/s to -5m/s in the space of an insant :)
[13:49] <AndyEsser> instant*
[13:49] <AndyEsser> I'm aware it needs improvement
[13:49] <AndyEsser> but...
[13:49] <AndyEsser> PRETTY CHARTS!
[13:49] <adamgreig> let's try this
[13:50] <adamgreig> parachute in vacuum
[13:50] <adamgreig> does what?
[13:50] <AndyEsser> sod all
[13:50] <daveake> correct
[13:50] <adamgreig> so, how fast does your payload fall in vacuum?
[13:50] <adamgreig> (but still in earth gravity)
[13:50] <AndyEsser> accelerates at 9.8m/s^2
[13:50] <AndyEsser> up to some amount
[13:50] <adamgreig> up to what amount?
[13:50] <adamgreig> in vacuum
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[13:51] <adamgreig> (and from what starting speed?)
[13:51] <adamgreig> ok I have to run for a meeting but follow that train of thought all the way to the ground :P
[13:51] <adamgreig> then you can think about the ascent part
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[13:52] <LunarMobile> Works :) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1lke6hPHKJDVlhNRHA3RlVQNWs/view?usp=docslist_api
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[13:53] <LunarWork> yay that worked :)
[13:54] <eroomde> Looks great LunarWork
[13:54] <eroomde> lovely job
[13:54] <LunarWork> thanks :)
[13:54] <LunarWork> see you all later :)
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[13:56] <fsphil> he seems to be missing an important component
[13:56] <eroomde> 'and i launched it'
[13:57] <eroomde> 'and then i noticed something - i had no soldered on the microcontroller! XD'
[13:57] <eroomde> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DgbUBoxa48
[13:57] <AndyEsser> :P
[13:57] <fsphil> lol
[13:57] <AndyEsser> eroomde: I need to bookmark this video :)
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[14:02] <AndyEsser> At 34,000 free fall velocity would reach 816 m/s when it hit the ground.. (ouch)
[14:02] <AndyEsser> I believe...
[14:03] <AndyEsser> 34,000m
[14:05] <eroomde> sounds about right
[14:05] <eroomde> mach 2-3ish
[14:05] <AndyEsser> heheh
[14:05] Action: AndyEsser claims to make supersonic payload
[14:05] <AndyEsser> just because chute failed to deploy
[14:05] <AndyEsser> :)
[14:06] <fsphil> is it supersonic if there is no air :)
[14:06] <eroomde> point taken
[14:06] <AndyEsser> "In space, no-one hears your break the sound barrier"
[14:06] <AndyEsser> :)
[14:06] <AndyEsser> s/your/you
[14:07] <eroomde> AndyEsser: you will probably want to turn this slide into some functions https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/atmosmet.html
[14:07] <eroomde> then you can finish your solver
[14:07] <AndyEsser> heh - was just about to google for those sorts of numbers :)
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[14:09] <eroomde> for chute descent you just assume its in equilibrium the whole time
[14:09] <eroomde> so you calculate descent rate just based on the local density at that altitude
[14:09] <eroomde> no accelerations
[14:09] <eroomde> that's plenty good enough
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[14:16] <AndyEsser> Aww, it was all going so well
[14:16] <AndyEsser> I suspect my <11000 calculation is wrong
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[14:20] <AndyEsser> eroomde: in that slide you showed, do the [] notation mean anything special? or just "everything within these brackets to the power of x"
[14:21] <eroomde> the latter
[14:25] <AndyEsser> woo, seems to fixed now :)
[14:30] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/AzA5AdZ
[14:30] <AndyEsser> :)
[14:30] <AndyEsser> seems to match other graphs I've found to reference
[14:30] <eroomde> that looks good
[14:38] <adamgreig> yep
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[14:40] <AndyEsser> :)
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[14:51] <eroomde> adamgreig: has the electronics club meeting happened yet?
[14:52] <adamgreig> wednesday
[14:52] <adamgreig> my PCBs from dirty updated to "shipped" last night, so the race is on
[14:54] <AndyEsser> eroomde: How do I plot multiple lines on a matplotlib figure?
[14:54] <adamgreig> just keep plotting before you hit show
[14:54] <AndyEsser> googling shows add_subplot and things, but I can't seem to wrangle that
[14:54] <AndyEsser> ah ok
[14:54] <adamgreig> plt.plot(x1, y1); plt.plot(x2, y2); etc
[14:55] <adamgreig> in ipython notebook just have multiple calls to plot and anything else and they all go into the final displayed figure (you can use plt.show() to start a new figure)
[14:55] <AndyEsser> why on earth didn't I just try that...
[14:55] <AndyEsser> seems obvious now
[14:55] <eroomde> it's not actually that obvious
[14:55] <AndyEsser> Ah, I know I tried
[14:55] <AndyEsser> plt.plot(x, y1, y2)
[14:55] <AndyEsser> that's why
[14:55] <AndyEsser> I think
[14:55] <eroomde> it's sort of a matlaby interface to what is a slightly more object-oriented interface underneath that you will want to learn at some point when you get into it
[14:56] <eroomde> but not worry about now
[14:56] <AndyEsser> TBH I don't really want to plot these all on one figure anyway
[14:56] <eroomde> if you have a list of datasets that all need plotting against, say, time, you can just pop it in a loop. it will give them all different colours and whatnot
[14:57] <eroomde> for dataset in datasets: plot(time, dataset)
[14:57] <eroomde> but if you want to manually control all that (colours and so on) then you can do that too
[14:59] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/nEZadLO
[15:00] <AndyEsser> eroomde: yea, I came across all the colours and whatnot options when I was googling around about multiple lines
[15:05] <Vooloo> does habhub have a rest API?
[15:05] <adamgreig> yes
[15:05] <AndyEsser> :)
[15:06] <adamgreig> http://habitat.readthedocs.org/en/latest/database.html
[15:06] <AndyEsser> Ah, good ol' couchdb :)
[15:06] <adamgreig> good luck
[15:07] <Vooloo> what about the SSDV?
[15:07] <adamgreig> ask fsphil
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[15:12] <AndyEsser> so, just working out the drag force caused by a chute of radius r... coming out at 26.7m/s for a 2ft parachute
[15:12] <AndyEsser> that seems... high
[15:12] <AndyEsser> (at sea level air density)
[15:12] <adamgreig> drag force in m/s? :P
[15:12] <eroomde> what mass?
[15:14] <eroomde> ha units police
[15:14] <eroomde> fighting the good fight
[15:14] <eroomde> i believe when i first gave you the link i said something like...
[15:14] <eroomde> [11:47] <eroomde> the talk might be a bit torturous about being explicit about what is a force and what is an acceleration and units and so on, hopefully you don't find it too patronising
[15:15] <AndyEsser> "something like"
[15:15] <AndyEsser> :P
[15:15] <eroomde> brew has broken my avr toolchain
[15:15] <eroomde> tiresome
[15:17] <eroomde> the number is perfectly reasonably at some altitudes
[15:20] <R6mco> https://www.google.nl/maps/place/45%C2%B007'14.4%22N+11%C2%B049'34.2%22E/@45.12067,11.823976,849m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0 <- where DC2EH-11 is 'landing'
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[15:21] <AndyEsser> eroomde: am rewatching your talk - stand by for either a) more questions b) more graphs :)
[15:21] <eroomde> tis why i'm here
[15:22] <eroomde> would be nice if a physics programming language could do a dimensions check on all your calculations
[15:23] <eroomde> avr-toolchain restored
[15:23] <adamgreig> pretty sure you can do that in haskell
[15:23] <eroomde> and building gcc has blown lots of fluff out of the guts of my laptop
[15:23] <AndyEsser> ha
[15:23] <eroomde> adamgreig: that was my internal thought
[15:24] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: checking the talk, and my code - it appears I am calculate Newtons...
[15:25] <AndyEsser> calculating*
[15:25] <adamgreig> i recommend m/s for speeds
[15:25] <eroomde> meow
[15:26] <adamgreig> ugh, the only useful flight I can pick for this conf is ryanair
[15:26] <AndyEsser> so, the calculation that got of a website (yes, yes, I know)... uses the same formula as Ed's talk (before he re-arranged for V)
[15:26] <adamgreig> sigh
[15:26] <AndyEsser> but says it's m/s
[15:26] Action: AndyEsser should know better than to trust website
[15:26] <adamgreig> which formula?
[15:26] <adamgreig> or which website
[15:26] <AndyEsser> Fd = 1/2*rho*v^2*Cd*A
[15:26] <adamgreig> if it's computing a force Fd it's probably not going to be in m/s
[15:26] <adamgreig> which website?
[15:27] <AndyEsser> http://www.rocketmime.com/rockets/descent.html
[15:27] <AndyEsser> heh... in fact
[15:27] <AndyEsser> it doesn't actually say m/s for that section
[15:27] <AndyEsser> I've just been a muppet instead
[15:27] Action: AndyEsser goes and commits sepuku
[15:27] <adamgreig> corr
[15:27] <adamgreig> "Cd = 1.5 because the rocket uses a true domed parachute "
[15:28] <eroomde> heh
[15:28] <eroomde> i think one of the first things i said in the video was how Cd values are always silly from hobby rocketry prople
[15:28] <AndyEsser> eroomde: you did :)
[15:28] <AndyEsser> shots fired :P
[15:28] Action: SM0ULC-Reb throws in a question. A wav recorded with LSB. Is it possible to invert to USB with "sox -v -1"? yes, I know it won't be real USB-fq. Have super wierd results with rtl_fm. USB seems to be exact same as LSB.
[15:28] <eroomde> but yes the physics in that page looks ok
[15:51] <AndyEsser> my god my maths really really sucks
[15:53] <eroomde> we're here to help
[15:54] <SM0ULC-Reb> AndyEsser: everything sucks for me. rtl_fm seems to have a bug with USB. And sox does not "invert" the audio. :/
[15:54] <SM0ULC-Reb> AndyEsser: and yes, I don't understand the USB/LSB-code in rtl_fm, yet.
[15:55] <AndyEsser> Ok, so the descent speed is a function of the "downwards" Force, caused by mass and gravity, and a force generated by the parachute in the opposite direction
[15:57] <eroomde> yes
[15:58] <AndyEsser> force generated by the parachute is based on the velocity of the payload down
[15:58] <eroomde> yes
[15:59] <AndyEsser> I can calculate the speed of the payload in free fall at time t
[15:59] <eroomde> so the velocity increases until the drag force (up) is equal to the weight force (down)
[15:59] <eroomde> don't worry about time so much in this
[15:59] <eroomde> just assume the parachute is in equilibrium (weight = drag) throughout its deployment
[16:00] <eroomde> so that the descent velocity is just a function of your altitude (more specifically, the air density at that altitude)
[16:00] <AndyEsser> So, I have a function that calculates drag force from the parachute based on air density (and an optimistic 1.5 Cd)
[16:01] <eroomde> make Cd 0.7
[16:01] <eroomde> you don;t really need to calculate the drag force, i'd just rearrange the equation to calculate the velocity directly
[16:01] <AndyEsser> sorry - brb
[16:01] <eroomde> k
[16:01] <AndyEsser> work nonsense
[16:01] <Miek> SM0ULC-Reb: that sox command just inverts each sample which won't really do much
[16:07] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BERKOHAB - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BERKOHAB
[16:08] <Miek> SM0ULC-Reb: i think you want something like this - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3520557/how-to-spectrum-inverse-a-sampled-audio-signal
[16:08] <SM0ULC-Reb> Miek: check
[16:09] <AndyEsser> eroomde: back
[16:09] <eroomde> ok
[16:10] <AndyEsser> eroomde: the website from earlier gives this as a way to find descent velocity: v = sqrt( (8 m g) / (p r Cd D2) )
[16:10] <AndyEsser> (no idea what 8 magic number is in there)
[16:10] <eroomde> so ok stop now
[16:10] <eroomde> stop
[16:10] <AndyEsser> I've stopped
[16:10] <eroomde> work out what the 8 is there for
[16:10] <eroomde> i can see instantly why it's there
[16:10] <eroomde> you should be able to work it out
[16:10] <eroomde> don't go further without understanding
[16:12] <eroomde> here is a hint (answer). I use area in my equation, they don't. what have they done?
[16:13] <AndyEsser> ok, so rearranging the equation you had in your presention to give chute area
[16:13] <AndyEsser> results in A = piD^2/4
[16:13] <AndyEsser> why doesn't IRC have some sort of LaTeX....
[16:13] <eroomde> grand
[16:13] <eroomde> no if you sub that it, you see where the 8 comes from
[16:13] <eroomde> now*
[16:14] <AndyEsser> the 4 and the 2 constants in both equations multiply, to give 8?
[16:14] <eroomde> V = sqrt(2*m*g / density*Cd*A)
[16:14] <AndyEsser> (when rearranging)
[16:14] <eroomde> yep
[16:15] <AndyEsser> right, ok - magic number worked out :)
[16:15] <eroomde> good
[16:15] <eroomde> let's continue
[16:16] <Vooloo> what do you use to get the altitude and climb rates?
[16:16] <Vooloo> if you had a Pi
[16:16] <eroomde> the pi
[16:17] <Vooloo> it can sense altitude?
[16:17] <eroomde> oh sorry
[16:17] <eroomde> the gps
[16:17] <Vooloo> but it will die out at a specific height?
[16:18] <AndyEsser> Vooloo: if you manage that - you've gotten very high :)
[16:18] <adamgreig> 50km or so
[16:18] <adamgreig> ("it depends")
[16:18] <adamgreig> a ublox in normal mode: 12km
[16:18] <adamgreig> a ublox set to airborne mode: 50km
[16:18] <adamgreig> various other GPS units: varies, often 18km
[16:19] <AndyEsser> eroomde: ok so pumping sea level rho into that equation, a rocketman 2ft gives 3.83m/s descent rate
[16:19] <adamgreig> a space rated GPS for satellite use cases: probably like 20,000 km? depends
[16:19] <AndyEsser> they use GPS on satellites for position?
[16:19] <adamgreig> yea
[16:19] <AndyEsser> nice
[16:19] <Vooloo> ok so its the ublox
[16:19] <eroomde> AndyEsser: that sounds reasonable
[16:19] <adamgreig> if you're using the pi-in-the-sky software it should set it to airborne mode for you, and thus it will work up to 50km
[16:20] <AndyEsser> so basically, my graph then just wants to take rho from my previous functions (based on the slide you gave me) and plot that then, to show descent rate over tiem?
[16:20] <AndyEsser> time*
[16:20] <eroomde> yes
[16:21] <eroomde> exactly so
[16:22] <eroomde> altitude = altitude - descent_rate(altitude)*dt
[16:22] <eroomde> that's the update step^
[16:22] <eroomde> for a simple forward-euler method solver
[16:22] <eroomde> do that until altitude <= 0
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[16:24] <adamgreig> in python you probably want to just compute an altitude vector as a function of a time vector
[16:25] <adamgreig> though then you need to work out how much time to compute for I suppose
[16:25] <adamgreig> (you can solve for this also)
[16:25] <eroomde> i would write a simple loopy integrator first if you don't remember calculus though
[16:26] <Vooloo> to have the gps track up to 50k you need the antenna on the top of the box right?
[16:26] <eroomde> or rather, it's a very rusty distant a-level memory
[16:26] <eroomde> Vooloo: yes
[16:26] <eroomde> it might get a lock not on the top but i wouldn't recommend it
[16:26] <Vooloo> do you put aprs or similar at the bottom?
[16:26] <eroomde> yes
[16:26] <eroomde> aprs is for earthlings
[16:26] <eroomde> gps is for extraterrestrials
[16:26] <Vooloo> hole mandatory?
[16:27] <eroomde> hole?
[16:27] <Vooloo> for the antenna
[16:27] <Vooloo> how far does it have to stick out?
[16:27] <eroomde> it depends on what you're transmitting
[16:28] <eroomde> what frequency
[16:28] <eroomde> and the type of antenna you want
[16:28] <Vooloo> ssdv plus data
[16:28] <eroomde> do you have a ham radio license?
[16:28] <Vooloo> no but I think I can use another frequency
[16:28] <eroomde> do you know what aprs is?
[16:28] <Vooloo> kinda
[16:28] <eroomde> i don't think you do
[16:29] <Vooloo> amateur radio
[16:29] <eroomde> you definitely don't know what aprs is.
[16:29] <eroomde> so
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[16:30] <eroomde> aprs is a specific messages service operated by amateur radio people where stations listen on a specific frequency for messages from other stations, and broadcast them along to something else (like another station, or onto the internet).
[16:30] <Vooloo> I know
[16:30] <eroomde> that is a fixed frequency that they listen on
[16:31] <eroomde> so you can't just 'use another frequency' - that makes no sense
[16:31] <Vooloo> you mean I cant get a signal from my car?
[16:31] <Vooloo> with an antenna
[16:31] <eroomde> irrelevant and confused question
[16:32] <eroomde> just listen
[16:32] <eroomde> imagine you find a random walkie-talky radio
[16:32] <eroomde> like what a security guard might use
[16:32] <eroomde> and you say 'i'm going to send sms messages with this'
[16:33] <eroomde> i would say 'you can't, sms uses the gsm network and is a specific kind of message on specific frequencies with specific modulations'. And you understand what i mean - a walkie-talkie and a mobile phone, though they both use radio waves to communicate, are different things using different bits of spectrum
[16:34] <eroomde> aprs is like a sort of sms service invented by amateur-radio people for them to use to send messages
[16:34] <Vooloo> so the aprs protocal cant be used on another frequency even if I tune two devices to talk to eachother?
[16:34] <eroomde> if yor law requires a ham license to use aprs in your country, you can't therefore use aprs by merely using another frequency. You can use aprs-like messages, but no one will be listening at that frequency you are transmitting them on
[16:35] <eroomde> however, you could tune *your own* radio to that frequency and be the only person listening
[16:35] <eroomde> you are free to do that
[16:35] <Vooloo> that was what I was saying
[16:35] <Vooloo> I know nobody else will listen to my random frequency
[16:35] <mfa298> technically you could run aprs on a different (presumably license free) frequency but there's very little point as a) there won't be anyone listening for it and b) the way it works isn't as power efficient as other schemes (so on license free powers the range will be reduced)
[16:35] <eroomde> so in the UK we can't use aprs anyway
[16:36] <eroomde> so we invented our own thing that was suitable for low power balloons
[16:36] <craag> however at that point you're just using the data modulation from APRS, known as Bell 202/AX.25. Which really is quite rubbish.
[16:36] <eroomde> and now hundreds of people tune into 'our random frequency' and help us track
[16:36] <Vooloo> but you made it sound like the aprs protocal was technically impossible because of frequency change
[16:36] <craag> aprs is the system
[16:36] <murb> Vooloo: no just pointless.
[16:36] <eroomde> you might want to do that as if you're not going to use aprs, you might aswell use the sort of defacto standard for european ballooning - the thing we invented here
[16:36] <craag> ax.25 is the protocol
[16:37] <Vooloo> so you have a custom protocol too?
[16:37] <eroomde> yes
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[16:37] <eroomde> usually 50 baus rtty
[16:37] <mfa298> aprs on license free frequencies has been done but no sane person would do it (the balloon I can think of that did that had almost zero listeners)
[16:37] <eroomde> it's very, very simple to implement with a microcontroller and the radios we often use
[16:37] <Vooloo> ok so if I use rtty then, and I am the only one listening
[16:37] <eroomde> you won't be
[16:38] <eroomde> there are already quite a few swedes who track our balloons
[16:38] <eroomde> using our system
[16:39] <Vooloo> ok that is fine
[16:39] <craag> You send an email to our mailing list, telling them when and where, and they'll switch their receivers on and tune in to help you :)
[16:39] <eroomde> you will probably reach some of the poles too
[16:39] <Vooloo> then I can replace aprs with rtty
[16:39] <eroomde> yep
[16:40] <craag> Have you read the link to Dave's blog Vooloo ?
[16:40] <Vooloo> so the original question, how long does the antenna have to stick out of the box? :D
[16:40] <eroomde> right, so assuming you use our system, that is usually 434MHz
[16:40] <eroomde> we use a kind of antenna called a 1/4-wave with ground-plane
[16:40] <mfa298> if you're doing ssdv then you're almost certainly going to be doing that over rtty, and the pits (if that's the route you're going) is designed to send telemetry and ssdv together. rtty is almost certainly also going to give you more regular position updates than aprs so even if you miss some you're still better off
[16:40] <Vooloo> craag: ya
[16:40] <craag> :)
[16:41] <eroomde> as the name suggests, the 1/4 must be 1/4 of one wavelength of a radiow ave at a frequency of 434MHz
[16:41] <eroomde> which is 17.5cm
[16:42] <Vooloo> you would be able to track my balloon from UK?
[16:42] <eroomde> it might not get to the UK
[16:42] <eroomde> the range is basically the distance to the horizon for the balloon
[16:42] <eroomde> which might be like 500km?
[16:43] <Vooloo> ok
[16:43] <Vooloo> bit too far
[16:44] <eroomde> you might hit hamburg
[16:44] <eroomde> berlin if lucky
[16:44] <Vooloo> so you use something like this https://www.tessco.com/products/displayProductInfo.do?sku=87558 ?
[16:44] <mfa298> the important bit there is "distance to the horizon for the balloon" so as the balloon comes down the range reduces meaning you really need to be chasing it so you're reasonably close to it as it comes in to land
[16:44] <eroomde> oslo
[16:45] <eroomde> Vooloo: this is what you want https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:payload_antenna
[16:45] <AndyEsser> eroomde: http://imgur.com/4asX3ZO
[16:45] <mfa298> Vooloo: something like that with a magnetic base is reasonable for the car, on the payload what eroomde just linked to.
[16:45] <eroomde> AndyEsser: that looks wrong
[16:45] <Vooloo> Oh wow
[16:45] <eroomde> v wrong
[16:45] <Vooloo> It hangs from the bottom?
[16:45] <eroomde> yes
[16:46] <Vooloo> I see
[16:46] <eroomde> it broadcasts in a sort of cone downwards from the payload
[16:46] <Vooloo> what about the GPS antenna?
[16:46] <eroomde> those 4 bits sticking out sideways are very important
[16:46] <eroomde> the gps antenna can just be a bought one on the top
[16:47] <eroomde> http://www.frontierprecision.com/images/mgis_patch_antenna.jpg
[16:47] <eroomde> that sort of thing
[16:49] <Vooloo> do you hang the reflector on the bottom antenna?
[16:50] <AndyEsser> eroomde: :(
[16:56] <SM0ULC-Reb> The cheap yagis för 430 mhz. Anyone remember the site? German site?
[16:57] <Vooloo> http://community.balloonchallenge.org/uploads/default/611/27cf01dbb846cbaf.jpg will that interfer with the bottom antenna?
[16:58] <AndyEsser> eroomde: time to head home - but I'll keep bashing away at this
[16:58] <AndyEsser> I imagine the graph should be steeper to start off with and gradually get less steep as the altitude increases
[16:58] <mfa298> Vooloo: check your local laws, you may not need a radar reflector
[16:59] <Vooloo> laws yeah but dont want an aircraft flying into it :P
[17:02] <mfa298> the time you're in the path of any major aircraft should be fairly minimal, and there's a lot of space up there with not much in it
[17:10] <eroomde> AndyEsser: i think people like github can render ipython notebooks
[17:10] <eroomde> so you can upload the whole thing in a gist maybe
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[17:37] <Vaizki> I feel a bit old when my teenage kid is playing D&D with his friends in the next room and I don't agree with their rules interpretations
[17:38] <adamgreig> hah
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[17:38] <adamgreig> what edition do they have though?
[17:39] <Vaizki> some newfangled stuff.. I've only played first edition :D
[17:39] <Vaizki> which makes me feel even older
[17:39] <eroomde> enterprise edition
[17:40] <Vaizki> I am not going in there and embarassing them by asking :)
[17:41] <Vaizki> I already got desperate looks from my son when I had to go get a tablecloth from the room and commented "Jesus saves, others take full damage"
[17:42] <Vaizki> unfortunately old dad jokes are not appreciated around here
[17:43] <adamgreig> old dad jokes are never appreciated by kids, right? that's the fun of them
[17:44] <Ian_> Boys in particular turn about 14 and parents aren't supposed to have opinions of any sort. Around 20 they start re-joining the human race.
[17:45] <eroomde> When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.
[17:45] <eroomde> (mark twain not me)
[17:45] <Ian_> :) that sounds about right, on both accounts
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[17:56] <AndyEsser> D&D 4e was best edition :)
[17:56] <adamgreig> i really liked d20 modern and future, but i am a dnd deviant so
[17:57] <AndyEsser> been many years since I playedD&D :(
[17:58] <eroomde> i have never played.
[17:58] <adamgreig> too cool?
[17:59] <eroomde> must have been
[17:59] <eroomde> i never came across it once at cranleight
[17:59] <AndyEsser> heh
[17:59] <eroomde> AndyEsser:?
[17:59] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: it's too much like fun
[17:59] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: and eroomde is against fun
[17:59] <AndyEsser> :)
[17:59] <AndyEsser> eroomde: hmm?
[18:00] <AndyEsser> o sorry - didn't see that last line of yours
[18:00] <AndyEsser> nope - never saw it until I joined the games industry
[18:00] <eroomde> and yes, it's unlikely i would have got into it at uni
[18:02] <eroomde> cusf soaked up most time for nerdery
[18:02] <adamgreig> CUER are having 3 full-time (paid) roles next year btw
[18:03] <eroomde> cambridge university expensive racing
[18:03] <adamgreig> mm
[18:03] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03QM-SkyPi-test_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=QM-SkyPi-test_chase
[18:03] <eroomde> did they manage anything this year?
[18:03] <adamgreig> they actually completed the course
[18:03] <eroomde> haven;t heard a peep since it all went very wrong for them for whatever reason a couple of yrs ago
[18:03] <adamgreig> they've done really really well this year
[18:04] <adamgreig> they have one person full time now and a generally competent team it seems
[18:04] <adamgreig> but yea they got a new vehicle that's different to what everyone else and their dog races and completed the entire course
[18:04] <adamgreig> didn't place per se but I don't think they were in the "race" category anyway
[18:04] <adamgreig> so yea it's by far the best they've ever managed :P
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[18:05] <eroomde> nice
[18:05] <eroomde> 22nd!
[18:05] <adamgreig> and we can't talk much after martlet 2 did the whole self diassembly thing
[18:06] <eroomde> martlet completed the course
[18:06] <eroomde> and placed in a hole in the ground
[18:06] <adamgreig> lol
[18:06] <AndyEsser> Did it have lots of fanfare and fireworks when it did so?
[18:06] <AndyEsser> :)
[18:07] <adamgreig> more like lots of swearing and radioing in "heads up, parts coming in hot!"
[18:07] <adamgreig> my i-never-learn, highly-integrated rocket flight computer's coming along http://gerblook.org/pcb/fKEPZE2nKdejfaMFnFhzLJ
[18:08] <adamgreig> just one very scary bit of routing left really
[18:08] <eroomde> the tagconnects are just jtag right?
[18:08] <AndyEsser> why "i-never-learn"?
[18:08] <adamgreig> eroomde: swd only
[18:08] <eroomde> right
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[18:09] <adamgreig> AndyEsser: last time I made a flight computer that was one monolithic integrated thing I swore the next go would be a modular thing on a can bus and all that
[18:09] <adamgreig> wrote a big postmortem etc etc
[18:09] <eroomde> so no daisychain
[18:09] <eroomde> iirc
[18:09] <AndyEsser> heh
[18:09] <adamgreig> yea correct
[18:09] <eroomde> (i was wondering why 2 connects)
[18:09] <adamgreig> so
[18:09] <adamgreig> the bottom one is break-away but doesn't overhand anything so I can use the clip underneath to hold the probe in place
[18:10] <adamgreig> the top one is for use once it's all assembled but I still need to reprogram or debug
[18:10] <adamgreig> but you can't clip the probe onto the top one so it'd be very annoying in development
[18:10] <eroomde> right
[18:10] <adamgreig> they are electrically the same
[18:10] <eroomde> yes
[18:10] <eroomde> oh this is unfinished
[18:10] <eroomde> i was looking at the middle layers wondering where the hell the fanout was for the bga
[18:10] <adamgreig> was going to put a normal .05" SWD header on the breakaway part, but that's £1 I don't need to spend
[18:10] <mattbrejza> is the -ve connector of the battery gonna get in the way of the sd card?
[18:10] <adamgreig> haha yea
[18:10] <adamgreig> the bga routing is the scary part that's left
[18:10] <eroomde> yes
[18:10] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: yes/no
[18:10] <eroomde> grab yourself a nice glass of sherry
[18:10] <adamgreig> going to clip it flush and solder just into the hole
[18:10] <eroomde> mozart on
[18:11] <adamgreig> the microsd is slightly above the board and plastic anyway
[18:11] <adamgreig> so should be fine
[18:11] <mattbrejza> yae thought that was going to be the case
[18:11] <adamgreig> i can definitely do the fanout in this spec and pitch https://agg.io/u/bga196.pnghttps://agg.io/u/bga196.png
[18:11] <adamgreig> uh
[18:11] <adamgreig> https://agg.io/u/bga196.png
[18:11] <adamgreig> and I don't expect to need every signal
[18:11] <adamgreig> but I need to do the pin allocation first
[18:11] <eroomde> on the right hanf side pcb, is the middle device one of those MSI pressure sensors?
[18:11] <adamgreig> and that's what I'm putting off
[18:11] <adamgreig> yes, ms5611
[18:11] <eroomde> cool
[18:11] <adamgreig> the only part that's not centered in the x-axis (it's off by 0.5mm)
[18:11] <eroomde> i like them
[18:12] <adamgreig> I like them EXCEPT they promise they indicate when a conversion is complete but they appear to be lying
[18:12] <eroomde> what's the actual dimensions of the bottom pcb?
[18:12] <adamgreig> 16x60mm
[18:12] <adamgreig> one AA battery
[18:12] <eroomde> nice
[18:12] <adamgreig> it's precisely the size of the plastic moulded AA battery holder
[18:12] <AndyEsser> good lord, my office at home is colder than work office
[18:12] <AndyEsser> might have to turn the underfloor heating back on :(
[18:12] <adamgreig> same as https://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/19930250108
[18:13] <Vaizki> why would you turn underfloor heating off
[18:13] <Vaizki> it's the best way to heat...
[18:13] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: I thought it might've been causing my current... fly issue
[18:13] <adamgreig> and it's got a molex picolock connector
[18:13] <adamgreig> which is new to me
[18:13] <adamgreig> but quite small and has positive retention
[18:13] <adamgreig> i'm doing a totally gross thing with it
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[18:13] <eroomde> bulgin holder?
[18:13] <Vaizki> AndyEsser: flies don't eat floor tiles, they eat mostly the same stuff as you :)
[18:13] <adamgreig> it has gnd + data
[18:14] <adamgreig> and the data carries half duplex UART (the stm32 can internally bond rx and tx and drive them open drain)
[18:14] <adamgreig> and CAN in degraded media state
[18:14] <adamgreig> i.e. can_rx and can_tx on the same line with a diode into tx
[18:14] <adamgreig> so I can either run a CAN network over it or use it for serial in/out
[18:14] <eroomde> i getcha
[18:15] <adamgreig> plan is for extending to chunkier pyros or datalogging/analogue stuff that wants synchronisation, or radio PAs or something
[18:15] <adamgreig> it's an MPD holder
[18:15] <Vaizki> so the bga is a stm32f4?
[18:15] <adamgreig> yea
[18:15] <adamgreig> in .8mm pitch
[18:16] <adamgreig> can't do .5 or .4 sadly
[18:16] <adamgreig> also I'm unhappy with the smps and want to replace it but can't find anything better
[18:16] <adamgreig> but i bet that current layout and routing will be horrible
[18:16] <adamgreig> however its recommended PCB layout is total junk and not helpful
[18:16] <Vaizki> so.. why does it have to be so small? for a rocket? :)
[18:17] <Vaizki> or is this a rules thing
[18:17] <adamgreig> really just to see how much I can put into a small pcb
[18:17] <adamgreig> quite like the "AA battery" footprint
[18:17] <Vaizki> ah ok, best reason right there :)
[18:17] <adamgreig> started out as a silly idea to see how much you can pack in with a bga part
[18:17] <adamgreig> there's a slight motivator in that a boosted dart configuration rocket would benefit from a very narrow diameter dart
[18:17] <adamgreig> and this will fit inside a 1" OD dart... just...
[18:18] <adamgreig> don't really want to think about a 1" OD dart doing mach scary though
[18:19] <Vaizki> I think they're called anti-tank rounds
[18:19] <adamgreig> but yea, you get 20 hours of an AA battery, total mass is something like 15g with battery
[18:19] <Vaizki> what do you boost the voltage with and why not a 3V lithium?
[18:20] <adamgreig> for which you get micro SD card, 168MHz Cortex-M4 with DSP and FPU, a beeper, USB connector, two 1A pyro channels, ublox GPS receiver, external connector, +-200g accelerometer, 9dof IMU, pressure sensor, and ISM radio transceiver
[18:20] <adamgreig> it's a 1.5V lithium primary and I want 3v3 and 1v8 rails
[18:20] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: me likely
[18:20] <AndyEsser> likey*
[18:22] <adamgreig> most parts are running off 1v8 but a few bits need 3v3 (usb on the stm32, the uSD card, the analogue parts of the MEMS sensors)
[18:23] <AndyEsser> I presume 130 seconds to get from 35km to 0 isn't quite right ;)
[18:23] <adamgreig> bit speedy
[18:23] <AndyEsser> hehe
[18:26] <AndyEsser> http://nbviewer.jupyter.org/gist/anonymous/b5c6ec9f938c4219f230
[18:26] <AndyEsser> eroomde: Not sure that's quite what you wanted :)
[18:27] <eroomde> perfect
[18:27] <AndyEsser> please don't look at my code...
[18:27] <AndyEsser> :P
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[18:28] <eroomde> ok i won't
[18:28] <eroomde> i mean, I have
[18:28] <eroomde> and i have 43 comments
[18:28] <eroomde> but i'll just assume it's all WIP
[18:28] <AndyEsser> I appreciate it's probably not as elegant as it could be :P
[18:28] <AndyEsser> yes
[18:28] <AndyEsser> ALL WIP
[18:28] <AndyEsser> (TM)
[18:28] <AndyEsser> :)
[18:28] <Vaizki> snow is engulfing britain then and killing you lot off it seems..
[18:28] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: no snow here
[18:29] <Vaizki> Weather experts fear that 8cm of snow could hit today in the hardest-hit areas.
[18:29] <AndyEsser> and none on my drive up from Bristol yesterday
[18:29] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: london-centric weather
[18:29] <AndyEsser> Appears to be all the South-East and Midlands from what I saw
[18:30] <Vaizki> a week ago we got 73cm of snow in one day on the western coast of Finland :D
[18:30] <Vaizki> then again, we are "slightly" better prepared for it
[18:30] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: and I'm guessing your country didn't grind to a halt
[18:31] <Vaizki> no of course not, because it's a regular event.. we got about 5cm in a few hours today as well
[18:31] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: my views on snow in the UK can be summed up as follows
[18:31] <AndyEsser> "Entirely predictable snow, once again unexpected"
[18:32] <AndyEsser> it's embarassing how this country stops due to 1ft of snow
[18:32] <adamgreig> 1ft?!
[18:32] <adamgreig> 1cm will do it
[18:32] <AndyEsser> sorry
[18:32] <AndyEsser> 2cm
[18:32] <AndyEsser> heh
[18:32] <Vaizki> yes it's like the first time roads freeze into ice here every year.. the tabloids go out with "commuters shocked by surprise winter"
[18:33] <Vaizki> well yes it's december and daa-a
[18:33] <fsphil> shock summer in july. actually that would be a shock
[18:33] <AndyEsser> fsphil: indeed
[18:34] <Vaizki> it was warmer on july 24th here than it was on december 24th..
[18:34] <eroomde> AndyEsser: you see where you've done this kind of thing? pressures = []; pressures.append(blah)
[18:34] <Vaizki> sorry june 24th
[18:34] <eroomde> you can instead do
[18:34] <Vaizki> july was definitely warmer
[18:35] <eroomde> pressures = [p for p,_,_ in pressureAtAltitude(r)]
[18:35] <Vaizki> eroomde is going to wow us with inline for statements now
[18:35] <Vaizki> yes!
[18:35] <eroomde> _ mean 'don't car'
[18:35] <eroomde> care*
[18:35] <AndyEsser> I never car
[18:35] <AndyEsser> ;)
[18:35] <eroomde> tbh i would refactor it all a bit anyway but i'm witholding comment like you said
[18:35] <AndyEsser> ah, the p,_,_ is because I return a list of 3 elements from pressureAtAltitude?
[18:35] <eroomde> yes
[18:35] <AndyEsser> eroomde: Yes - this was just mash through
[18:35] <eroomde> and you only care about the first one
[18:35] <AndyEsser> function names are all basically wrong etc
[18:36] <AndyEsser> 3rd one
[18:36] <adamgreig> yea, they all have capital letters in!
[18:36] <AndyEsser> I care about density, not pressure
[18:36] <adamgreig> definitely all wrong names :P
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[18:36] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: convention on the python website said CamelCase
[18:36] <adamgreig> what
[18:36] <adamgreig> no it didn't
[18:36] <eroomde> you could likewise do: temps = [t for _,t,_ in pressureAtAltitude(r)]
[18:36] <Vaizki> you could also p,q,r because they'll be dropped out of scope anyway but _ is just cleaner
[18:36] <adamgreig> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/
[18:36] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: might've been for Class names
[18:36] <Vaizki> camelcase is for classes, not fucntions
[18:36] <adamgreig> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/#function-names
[18:36] <adamgreig> Function names should be lowercase, with words separated by underscores as necessary to improve readability.
[18:36] <eroomde> and a function called pressureAtAltitude should not be returning temperatures and densities
[18:36] <eroomde> and and and
[18:36] <eroomde> but you will neaten all that up i'm sure
[18:36] <AndyEsser> eroomde: I expanded the function ;)
[18:37] <Vaizki> just stick to 1 letter variable and function names, no case problems
[18:37] <AndyEsser> eroomde: but thanks for the headsup
[18:37] <Laurenceb_> inb4 matlab
[18:37] <AndyEsser> nice one-liner
[18:37] <AndyEsser> Laurenceb_: eww
[18:37] <eroomde> list comprehensions are 'pythonic' which is a good thing in this case
[18:37] <eroomde> they are elegant and succinct
[18:37] <eroomde> you can add filtering intoo
[18:37] <eroomde> in too*
[18:38] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: underscores are god awful
[18:38] <AndyEsser> *shudder*
[18:38] <eroomde> [x for x in range(100) is x%2 == 0] will give you the first 50 even numbers
[18:38] <eroomde> if not is, sorry
[18:38] <Vaizki> next up, map() and lambda functions
[18:38] <eroomde> that's obviously a stupid way of ggenerating a list of even numbers but it illustrates the syntax
[18:38] <eroomde> Vaizki: no we're being pythonic
[18:38] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: meh
[18:38] <AndyEsser> atmospheric_properties_at_altitude
[18:38] <AndyEsser> that is horrid
[18:38] <Vaizki> eroomde: :)
[18:38] <adamgreig> map and lambdas are lame, all about list comprehensions :P
[18:38] <AndyEsser> atmosphericPropertiesAtAltitude is much nice
[18:39] <AndyEsser> nicer*
[18:39] <eroomde> no it isn't
[18:39] <eroomde> stick to the conventions and don't complain
[18:39] <AndyEsser> yes boss
[18:39] <eroomde> else i'll start talking about text editors again
[18:39] <eroomde> and i can definitely be far more annoying than you
[18:39] <eroomde> it's a superpower
[18:40] <AndyEsser> heh
[18:40] <AndyEsser> :O
[18:40] <AndyEsser> Am I still really annoying?
[18:40] <AndyEsser> :P
[18:40] Action: AndyEsser watches tumbleweed
[18:40] <eroomde> no i mean in the same way that objecting to underscores is stupid, having flamewars about text editors is stupid
[18:40] <AndyEsser> O yea
[18:41] <SM0ULC-Reb> eroomde: "ed" is the editor. :)
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[18:44] <eroomde> AndyEsser: ok this is causing me to twitch a bit
[18:44] <Vaizki> I have to say I find python list comprehension syntax a bit confusing sometimes. well confusing enough that I have to sometimes google it.. like [ x +1 if x % 2 else x for x in range(100) ] for example
[18:44] <eroomde> sorry
[18:44] <eroomde> i must intervene
[18:44] <eroomde> your pressureataltitude function
[18:44] <Vaizki> andy will never again post any code on the channel :D
[18:44] <eroomde> apart from all the styleguide stuff about naming and whitespace and stuff, the second test
[18:45] <eroomde> elif altitude > 11000 <= 25000:
[18:45] <eroomde> the 2nd test is redundant
[18:45] <eroomde> if it was >25000 it would have been caught above
[18:45] <Vaizki> ok that's eeps
[18:45] <eroomde> and at the end you return altitude because.........
[18:46] <adamgreig> more to the point
[18:46] <adamgreig> "if altitude > 11000 <= 25000:"
[18:46] <Vaizki> wait how would that work anyway?
[18:46] <adamgreig> does not do what you think
[18:46] <Vaizki> yes that's I was wondering too
[18:46] <adamgreig> "if 11000 < altitude <= 25000:"
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[18:47] <eroomde> ah yes i totally read it as being the right way round
[18:47] <eroomde> that's bad
[18:47] <adamgreig> you're checking if 11000 is less than altitude and also less than or equal 25000
[18:48] <adamgreig> which is not really helpful (11000 is _always_ less than 25000)
[18:49] <Vaizki> the whole a < x < b construct is a bit superfluous me thinks.. just type out x < b && x > a .. :P
[18:49] <adamgreig> helpfully the end result is correct
[18:49] <Vaizki> personal opinion of course
[18:49] <adamgreig> Vaizki: I think a < x < b is really nice because you so often want that
[18:49] <eroomde> yes
[18:49] <eroomde> i agree with adamgrieg
[18:49] <eroomde> it shows the logic quite nicely
[18:49] <Vaizki> it confuses people who are not pythonic ;)
[18:49] <eroomde> and it's how i'd write down the maths
[18:49] <adamgreig> it only confuses people who expect C
[18:50] <Vaizki> damn scientists taking over python!
[18:50] <adamgreig> i think it makes a lot more sense to people who know maths
[18:50] <eroomde> i agree
[18:50] <adamgreig> likewise "and" instead of "&&"
[18:50] <fsphil> not sure why C didn't go with words for logic operators
[18:50] <adamgreig> wouldn't look right :P
[18:51] <Vaizki> yea sorry I've been Cing all last week
[18:51] <Vaizki> back to python tomorrow ;)
[18:52] <AndyEsser> o good lord
[18:52] <AndyEsser> how the heck did I manage elif altitude > 11000 <= 25000
[18:52] <AndyEsser> sorry - was AFK making coffee
[18:52] <Vaizki> fingers were involved
[18:52] <fsphil> you might need more
[18:53] <AndyEsser> eroomde: that second test (for < 25000) was to catch when it was AT 25000
[18:53] <AndyEsser> which yes, is redundant, but somehow in the confusion of fucking up that elif statement... I spazzed out
[18:53] <AndyEsser> two secs
[18:55] <AndyEsser> right, fixed that
[18:55] <AndyEsser> although don't think it would've had an effect on the result anyway
[18:59] <AndyEsser> does python not have a ++ style operator?
[18:59] <adamgreig> no
[18:59] <adamgreig> if you find yourself incrementing a variable in a loop, you should probably be doing it differently
[19:00] <adamgreig> in general, thing += 0.2 or whatever
[19:00] <adamgreig> but mostly you should be doing iterators in loops instead
[19:00] <AndyEsser> for something like:
[19:00] <AndyEsser> for rho in densities:
[19:00] <AndyEsser> I guess I could
[19:01] <AndyEsser> i = densities.index(rho)
[19:01] <AndyEsser> or whatever the command is (saw it earlier)
[19:01] <adamgreig> what gross no
[19:01] <adamgreig> for idx, rho in enumerate(densities)
[19:01] <adamgreig> is probably what you want
[19:01] <adamgreig> but really you probably don't want that either - what are you using idx for?
[19:01] <AndyEsser> time step increment
[19:02] <AndyEsser> for i in range(0, len(densities)
[19:02] <AndyEsser> :
[19:02] <AndyEsser> :)
[19:02] <AndyEsser> rho = densities[i]
[19:02] <adamgreig> you almost never ever want "for x in range(len(thing))"
[19:02] <eroomde> yeah
[19:02] <eroomde> that's like a textbook antipattern
[19:03] <eroomde> in that case you want
[19:03] <eroomde> for d in densities:
[19:03] <eroomde> rho = d
[19:03] <eroomde> but i don't know why you have to assign to rho anyway
[19:03] <eroomde> just use d
[19:03] <AndyEsser> Which is what I do above (and in my code)
[19:03] <AndyEsser> for rho in densities:
[19:04] <AndyEsser> and then use rho directly
[19:04] <eroomde> yeah
[19:04] <eroomde> that's the right way
[19:04] <AndyEsser> but I need a counter of number of seconds that's passed
[19:04] <AndyEsser> hence incrementing timeIndex by 1 each loop
[19:04] <adamgreig> so ideally you should have a 'time' list that gives the time of each density in the 'densities' list
[19:04] <adamgreig> then you can "for t, rho in zip(time, densities)"
[19:04] <AndyEsser> o0o zip(x,y) looks useful
[19:05] <AndyEsser> what happens in the event that each list doesn't have the same number of elements? just errors out I guess?
[19:05] <AndyEsser> (I appreciate it shouldn't happen in the instance above)
[19:05] <adamgreig> try it and see
[19:06] <AndyEsser> omg... need to stop clicking on the nbviewer instead of the actual notebook tab...
[19:06] <AndyEsser> o0o very clever
[19:06] <AndyEsser> stops at the smallest size
[19:07] <adamgreig> there's also zip_longest in itertools
[19:07] <Vaizki> from itertools import magical devices of doom
[19:07] <adamgreig> https://docs.python.org/3/library/itertools.html?highlight=itertools
[19:07] <Vaizki> haha
[19:07] <Vaizki> sync
[19:07] <adamgreig> but 'zip' is builtin
[19:07] <adamgreig> and very often useful
[19:07] <AndyEsser> nice
[19:07] <AndyEsser> thanks
[19:08] <adamgreig> (itertools comes with python so is also "built in" but you have to import it)
[19:09] <AndyEsser> I'm guessing numpy is as well
[19:09] <AndyEsser> is matplotlib?
[19:09] <Vaizki> itertools is neat but you should not get to know it under pressure
[19:09] <adamgreig> neither numpy nor matplotlib come with python
[19:09] <Vaizki> just approach it when you have a bit of idle time and soak in it
[19:09] <AndyEsser> ah ok
[19:10] <AndyEsser> no doubt that'll trip me up someday when I come to use python on some system that doesn't have all these modules available :)
[19:10] <adamgreig> they're generally very easy to install
[19:10] <AndyEsser> conda install numpy
[19:10] <AndyEsser> ?
[19:10] <adamgreig> on linux you can usually get them from the package manager, on os x and windows you can install anaconda which comes with everything you want, and otherwise "pip"
[19:10] <adamgreig> conda is part of the anaconda distribution
[19:10] <adamgreig> which comes with numpy and matplotlib (and others)
[19:10] <adamgreig> but it's not standard python
[19:10] <AndyEsser> which is what I've installed to get ipython notebook
[19:10] <AndyEsser> kk
[19:10] <adamgreig> with standard python you generally use 'pip'
[19:11] <Vaizki> pip comes with new python version automagically even
[19:11] <Vaizki> so you don't need to install it
[19:11] <AndyEsser> pip install numpy, then?
[19:11] <AndyEsser> :)
[19:12] <Vaizki> aye
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[19:12] <AndyEsser> pip install make_python_usable_please
[19:12] <AndyEsser> :)
[19:13] <Vaizki> pip install curly_braces
[19:13] <Vaizki> ;)
[19:13] <AndyEsser> heh
[19:14] <AndyEsser> well I more meant install all the useful modules
[19:14] <AndyEsser> rather than a dig at the language itself
[19:14] <Vaizki> well there's a lot in standard lib tbh
[19:14] <eroomde> i use pip on osx and have zero issues
[19:14] <eroomde> the new pip is really nice
[19:15] <Vaizki> scipy has library dependencies that I don't think pip will deal with
[19:15] <Vaizki> but numpy should be easy
[19:16] <eroomde> Vaizki: deals with them fine for me
[19:16] <eroomde> no issues
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[19:16] <eroomde> i'd only recommend anaconda for windows because doing anything software-development other than my-little-pony games on windows is horrifying
[19:17] <eroomde> (like trying to get a working gfortran to build scipy deps which almost killed me a few yrs ago before conda existed)
[19:20] <AndyEsser> eroomde: http://imgur.com/tZcU5xt
[19:20] <AndyEsser> This is more like I'd expect
[19:20] <eroomde> *that* looks on the money
[19:20] <eroomde> yep
[19:20] <eroomde> nice
[19:20] <adamgreig> now plot altitude against time for the whole flight :P
[19:21] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: that's what I'm trying to do
[19:21] <AndyEsser> (will do descent first)
[19:21] <AndyEsser> and then bodge them together :)
[19:21] <AndyEsser> problem is, to get the graph above
[19:21] <AndyEsser> I had to do two things
[19:21] <AndyEsser> (and one makes perfect sense)
[19:21] <AndyEsser> one, is remove the if currentAltitude < 0: break
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[19:21] <AndyEsser> from my: for rho in densities: loop
[19:22] <AndyEsser> and two, stop plotting it against time which had nothing to do with the density of the atmosphere (which is what was used in the descent rate calculation)
[19:22] <AndyEsser> so still need to tidy stuff up properly
[19:25] <AndyEsser> Good lord it's freezing
[19:25] <AndyEsser> might have to grab laptop and go and plonk myself in front of the fire
[19:25] <AndyEsser> Yay for ipython notebook files being text and easily git-able :)
[19:26] <adamgreig> better yet
[19:26] <adamgreig> just keep running ipython notebook on desktop
[19:26] <adamgreig> on the laptop go to the thing in your browser
[19:26] <AndyEsser> ha yes!
[19:26] <AndyEsser> well actually, no
[19:26] <adamgreig> (nb you will either need to SSH tunnel or have ipython listen on all addresses, by default it only binds to localhost)
[19:26] <AndyEsser> without changing something in the ipython config
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[19:26] <AndyEsser> or use my existing nginx reverse proxy to access it
[19:26] <adamgreig> it's easy
[19:27] <adamgreig> ipython notebook --ip='*'
[19:27] <AndyEsser> o sweet
[19:27] <AndyEsser> yay for command line parameters :)
[19:27] <AndyEsser> ta muchly
[19:27] <AndyEsser> right, I'll be back in a bit
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[19:40] <Lunar_Lander> evening
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[19:44] Nick change: gurlavie_ -> gurlavie
[19:45] <AndyEsser> back
[19:46] <Lunar_Lander> wb andy
[19:47] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/fduQqo0 <- there are worse places to have to decamp to I guess
[19:47] <AndyEsser> :)
[19:53] <Vaizki> you need a kotatsu
[19:54] <Lunar_Lander> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1lke6hPHKJDMjBwV0o1eXlqVE0/view?usp=sharing
[19:58] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: a what?
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[20:11] <Ian_> What between one of those and a large samovar, it seems ideal :)
[20:12] <Ian_> Not to be confused with a Komatsu of course.
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[20:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03TXF1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=TXF1
[20:19] <AndyEsser> right... now I'm confused
[20:19] <AndyEsser> I have a list of descent rates based on altitude
[20:19] <AndyEsser> I would have thought something like
[20:20] <AndyEsser> for dr in descent_rates: current_altitude -= dr
[20:20] <adamgreig> you really want a function where you give it an altitude and it tells you the descent rate
[20:20] <AndyEsser> altitudes.append(current_altitude)
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[20:22] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: done that
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[20:22] <adamgreig> great, then you just want to step through time, updating your current altitude and descent rate based on that?
[20:22] <adamgreig> lots of ways of skinning this cat I suppose
[20:24] <AndyEsser> yea, which is what I thought I had been doing, but it resulted in a linear drop in altitude
[20:24] <AndyEsser> which I know isn't right :)
[20:25] <AndyEsser> I'm mainly just talking this through as a form of rubber duck debugging
[20:25] <AndyEsser> rather than wanting specific help :)
[20:25] <AndyEsser> need to figure this stuff out myself and try to dredge up the 10 year old A-level maths that hasn't been used
[20:27] <AndyEsser> gah
[20:27] Action: AndyEsser flips table
[20:31] <Vaizki> so you're already bored with the scope then, burying yourself in math now? :)
[20:32] <Ian_> maths
[20:32] <Upu> :)
[20:33] <Vaizki> and kotatsu is an integrated table-sofa-blanket-heater
[20:33] <AndyEsser> Ian_: +1
[20:33] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: it's all related
[20:34] <AndyEsser> and the scope is a test/debugging tool - not a toy to play with
[20:34] <Ian_> Komatsu, dig dig!
[20:34] <AndyEsser> the knobs will drop off if I fiddle too much
[20:34] <AndyEsser> :P
[20:34] <fsphil> it's not a toy? crap
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[20:35] <Vaizki> damn
[20:35] Action: Vaizki stares at his 10MHz waveforms crawling on the screen
[20:36] <AndyEsser> sod it - going to take a break and come back
[20:36] <AndyEsser> catch y'all laters
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[20:53] <Vaizki> when a Finnish company imports & rebadges chinese el cheapo stuff they really should try to get rid of the engrish..
[20:53] <Vaizki> http://sekokupu.pp.fi/kaluja/20160116_142849.jpg
[20:54] <Vaizki> or maybe they tried and just made it worse. argh.. :)
[20:56] <Ian_> Attempting to appeal to a larger market perhaps?
[20:56] <Lunar_Lander> looooool
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[20:59] <Jartza> Vaizki: LOL.... up in the ass of TIMO :D
[20:59] <Jartza> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAGbrM-MMRk
[20:59] <Vaizki> Pro Timo 100 km/h
[21:01] <Lunar_Lander> :D
[21:01] <Jartza> I guess Timo didn't have rubber grommet in his ass when the stone came through
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[21:02] <Vaizki> he was not prepared
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[21:06] <Jartza> not very pro :(
[21:07] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:10] Nick change: CrashX_ -> Crashdroid
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[21:22] <fsphil> what a pain
[21:29] <Lunar_Lander> https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/688905957422706688
[21:29] <Lunar_Lander> it *could* have worked
[21:30] <Lunar_Lander> https://www.instagram.com/p/BAqirNbwEc0/
[21:32] <Lunar_Lander> like delta clipper back then
[21:37] <fsphil> successful landing, unsuccessful staying still
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[21:54] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[22:06] <Oddstr13> Is my mess starting to look messy enough? :P https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4306267/ShareX/2016/01/2016-01-18_23-04-43.png
[22:09] <fsphil> Lunar_Lander: your picture earlier. didn't seem to have a cpu? :)
[22:10] <Lunar_Lander> indeed
[22:10] <Lunar_Lander> didn't solder one yet because of the several errors on the PCB
[22:11] <Lunar_Lander> thinking about making a new revision first and save my atmegas for that
[22:11] <fsphil> gotcha
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[22:13] <Lunar_Lander> :)
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[23:39] <Laurenceb_> http://tech.slashdot.org/story/16/01/18/1615236/how-amazons-drone-deliveries-will-work
[23:39] <Laurenceb_> sounds a bit bonkers
[23:39] <Laurenceb_> just drop it on peoples homes bomb style
[23:40] <daveake> YodelDrone
[23:41] <fsphil> TNT
[23:42] <fsphil> it does all seem very silly
[23:43] <daveake> 100 HAB points to the first person to misappropriate one of these and program it to collect their landed HAB
[23:44] Action: AndyEsser puts away plans for automated recovery system....
[23:45] <fsphil> nearspacex
[23:45] <fsphil> being able to catch it before it hits the ground would be very cool
[23:46] <daveake> That reminds me I need to remind DM to answer my question
[23:47] <Lunar_Lander> I saw videos from EOSS being present when the payload was on final before landing
[23:47] <mfa298> wow, 55lbs drone to deliver a 5lbs package, I'm not sure that sounds that efficient - although no doubt a good proportion of that is batteries
[23:49] <AndyEsser> mfa298: as oppose to 3 tonne vehicle to deliver 5lbs package?
[23:49] <mfa298> I suspect that 3 tonne vehicle is a bit more efficient in terms of power needed to deliver the 5lbs
[23:50] <craag> many times 5lbs too
[23:50] <Ian_> Hopefully it will be done in the US initially, so that they can experience the Amazon bleeding edge experience. After all they have had lob it in the yard paper deliveries for years. We just have an affinity for our letterboxes
[23:50] <Ian_> The loss rates will soar I think.
[23:51] <craag> hermes are already doing the lobbing here for them
[23:51] <craag> we've had 2 thrown over the back gate
[23:51] <craag> both on very wet days :/
[23:52] <Ian_> I ordered something small from Ebuyer, expecting next morning delivery, but left for Madrid thirty mins before the first attempted delivery. The neighbour said that the van had been on three separate days and on the third day she say the guy hurl the small package into the van in disgust . . .
[23:52] <mfa298> heh, good Q&A on one interesting Amazon item. Q:
[23:52] <mfa298> If I opt for air mail does it get delivered by Amazone Prime Air or CIA drones?
[23:53] <Ian_> s/say/saw
[23:53] <Laurenceb_> I pictured "telepresence" based manual drop off via call centre
[23:53] <mfa298> A: No sir, just give us your coordinate and we will deliver it via intercontinental missile in less than an hour, guaranteed speed
[23:53] <Laurenceb_> that might be more practical
[23:53] <mfa298> on http://www.amazon.com/Images-SI-Uranium-Ore/dp/B000796XXM
[23:54] <Laurenceb_> if there was someone on the other end watching footage they could avoid pets and stuff
[23:54] <Laurenceb_> ideally on the phone to the person doing pick up too
[23:55] <Ian_> And notice the neighbour through the bedroom windows
[23:56] <Ian_> It should be fun witnessing them attempt to refine the delivery model over time though.
[23:58] <Laurenceb_> "no I can't make the delivery until you get your pets under control"
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[23:59] <fsphil> "We where unable to deliver your parcel due to: Falcon attack"
[00:00] --- Tue Jan 19 2016