highaltitude.log.20160114

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[02:34] <Laurenceb_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l285JDSiOOo
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[09:04] <AndyEsser> morning
[09:04] <fsphil> goood morning #ha
[09:04] <AndyEsser> #ha?
[09:04] <fsphil> short for #highaltitude
[09:05] <AndyEsser> ah
[09:05] <daveake> no
[09:05] <daveake> ha
[09:05] <AndyEsser> thought you were hashtag laughing
[09:05] <AndyEsser> :P
[09:05] <fsphil> if I ever do, kill me
[09:05] <AndyEsser> haha
[09:05] <AndyEsser> I was once at a conference and turned to the friend beside me and made a hashtag signwith my hands and went "Hashtag!"
[09:05] <AndyEsser> he got up, walked away, and didn't talk to me for a few hours
[09:06] <daveake> #unsurprised
[09:06] <AndyEsser> #isamoron
[09:06] <AndyEsser> my little breadboard tracker is still going :)
[09:06] <fsphil> on the plus side, it's made americans call the # symbol hash
[09:07] <fsphil> instead of pound
[09:07] <AndyEsser> yea
[09:07] <AndyEsser> ....
[09:07] <AndyEsser> have you seen Olympus Has Fallen? Or White House Down (can't remember which one)
[09:07] <AndyEsser> they have to explain that, since there was a # in the code to disarm the nukes
[09:08] <eroomde> i can play chopin's prelude in F-hashtag-major
[09:08] <AndyEsser> wouldn't it just F-hashtag?
[09:08] <AndyEsser> I sometimes program in C-hashtag
[09:09] <fsphil> bash keeps ignoring my hashtags :(
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[09:16] <gonzo__> ed is feeling quite sharp today
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[09:20] <eroomde> it's just a minor complaint
[09:21] <daveake> noted
[09:21] <eroomde> early diagnosis is the key
[09:21] <fsphil> always the same old tune
[09:22] <AndyEsser> can I interrupt this highly amusing gag to ask a serious question?
[09:22] <eroomde> no
[09:22] <eroomde> you're new here
[09:22] <eroomde> you'll learn
[09:23] <eroomde> (of course, fire asway)
[09:23] <AndyEsser> no no- wouldn't want to break up the band
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[09:24] <daveake> pun convos are #2 to actual real questions
[09:24] <AndyEsser> on the tracker - the blue circle around a balloon, that's 5 degrees above horizon, I believe?
[09:24] <AndyEsser> what's the green one?
[09:24] <daveake> they are 0 and 5 degrees
[09:24] <AndyEsser> ah ok
[09:26] <daveake> Nice shot of this morning's ISS pass (not mine I should add) https://www.flickr.com/photos/perfexeon/24002434669/
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[09:27] <AndyEsser> that's quite cool
[09:28] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03hkLo1 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=hkLo1
[09:29] <fsphil> there was a nice picture on stargazing live last night showing a fair bit of detail of the station
[09:29] <AndyEsser> fsphil: but the ISS isn't real
[09:29] <fsphil> I've seen it man
[09:29] <daveake> Imaginary Space Station
[09:29] <RealBorg> AndyEsser, a new conspiracy?
[09:29] <fsphil> and used the packet repeater on it
[09:30] <AndyEsser> RealBorg: no - I was joking
[09:30] <fsphil> lol
[09:30] <AndyEsser> It was a joke at the expense of the tinfoil hat wearing people
[09:31] <RealBorg> AndyEsser, don't make jokes about such things
[09:31] <daveake> I made a joke about flat-earth people on twitter, and attracted their attention
[09:31] <RealBorg> i just felt obliged to google and there is a youtube video: "The International Space Station, just like everything else brought to us by NASA, is a Freemasonic hoax, a"
[09:31] <daveake> "mad" doesn't begin to describe them
[09:31] <fsphil> flat-earth .. it's a "global" conspiracy
[09:31] <daveake> they're living on the edge
[09:32] <fsphil> they're quite 2 dimensional
[09:32] <RealBorg> the sum of intelligence on this planet is a constant...
[09:32] <AndyEsser> lol - tracker prediction line shows my payload will reach the far North East tip of russia
[09:32] <gonzo__> I though it was quite plane to see?
[09:33] <AndyEsser> good lord the puns in this channel are terrible
[09:33] <RealBorg> or as einstein said: two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity
[09:33] <gonzo__> but seriously, on the level.........
[09:34] <RealBorg> youtube has become conspiracy central
[09:34] <AndyEsser> RealBorg: you can just avoid those videos/comments
[09:34] <gonzo__> AndyEsser, we've not even warmed up yet!
[09:34] <RealBorg> AndyEsser, unfortunately you get this shit "recommended" even if you only watch serious stuff
[09:35] <gonzo__> worse if your kids use your pc
[09:35] <fsphil> the recommended videos on anything even slightly related to nasa are just awful
[09:35] <mfa298> damn, I was trying to get the score onthe first pun fest and find out its all gone a bit flat
[09:36] <AndyEsser> ¬¬
[09:36] <gonzo__> too busy looking to the horizon?
[09:36] <RealBorg> worst thing is to search youtube for cern
[09:37] <gonzo__> would you like to disk-cuss it?
[09:38] <RealBorg> I would like to ask someone who was around when the tevatron was built if people were so stupid back then
[09:38] <mfa298> we might get a-round to it
[09:38] <gonzo__> the earth is round? a load of balls
[09:39] <gonzo__> (actually, oblate spheroids, but the thought brings tears to my eyes)
[09:40] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DC2EH-13 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DC2EH-13
[09:50] <SpacenearUS> New position from 032E0EBR-4 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=2E0EBR-4
[09:51] <RealBorg> when it comes to tinfoilhats: reality beats satire
[09:51] <AndyEsser> don't link to that stupid hat
[10:05] <gonzo__> we had one in here a while ago.
[10:05] <gonzo__> we had half an hour of fun out of it though
[10:10] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DC2EH-7 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DC2EH-7
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[11:18] <AndyEsser> suppose I should prototype a circuit and code for reading/writing to an SD card
[11:21] <eroomde> sd cards have an spi interface
[11:21] <eroomde> which is lovely
[11:21] <eroomde> and go for microsd unless you've a compelling reason not to
[11:22] <AndyEsser> Yea, I saw that they are pretty simple to read/write to
[11:22] <eroomde> and have a few coffees before trying to crank the datarate of writing up
[11:22] <AndyEsser> And yes, microSD not full size
[11:22] <AndyEsser> I'm in a constant state of "having a few coffees" :)
[11:22] <RealBorg> so you could just connect the spi pins to eg a rpi?
[11:22] <eroomde> no need for a typical hab flight but if you need to be getting into Mb/s territory they can require some surprising and annoying manouvres
[11:23] <eroomde> RealBorg: yes
[11:23] <AndyEsser> ah ok - cheers for the headsup eroomde
[11:23] <eroomde> they ahve internal wear levelling and the control often randomly fires a kazoo in your face to stop you (a wait state) and the waiting periods can be surprisngly long and very much a function of your pre-allocation strategy and other things
[11:24] <eroomde> had a devil of a time once with a fairly basic implementation of FAT which i think kept hammering the one part of memory that housed the file allocation table
[11:24] <eroomde> and the controller kept wear-levelling that and causing 200ms waits and so on
[11:24] <AndyEsser> ouch
[11:24] <AndyEsser> that's fairly hefty
[11:24] <eroomde> which was badness tenthousand for that particular application
[11:25] <RealBorg> must be a problem with journalling filesystems
[11:30] <AndyEsser> eroomde: can you think of any other sensors/devices that would be good to have on 'all' launches?
[11:30] <AndyEsser> currently thinking GPS + 3-axis accelerometer
[11:32] <BARC> temperature, pressure and humidity are all quite interesting
[11:32] <AndyEsser> I believe the AVR has a built in temp sensor - but an external would be better
[11:33] <AndyEsser> and I had already thought about pressure/barometer... not sure why I forgot about it
[11:33] <AndyEsser> might look at building a small module for the outside of the enclosure that has temp, humidity, pressure sensors on etc
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[11:35] <RealBorg> bmp180 is nice
[11:38] <AndyEsser> cheers
[11:39] <eroomde> AndyEsser: sorry for lag, work has actually started proper fr me today
[11:39] <eroomde> so irc-age will collapse slowly
[11:39] <AndyEsser> no worries
[11:39] <eroomde> so instrumentation is actually an area of engineering i find most fascinating because it;'s really hard to do well
[11:39] <eroomde> it's extremely easy to measure the temperature of a temperature sensor at 35km
[11:40] <eroomde> and much harder to measure the temperature of the air at 35km
[11:40] <eroomde> certainly the avr temperature sensor will have little to do with air temp, but it's a useful thing to log as an electronics temperature
[11:41] <AndyEsser> Yep - I wasn't going to think of it as "air temperature" or anything
[11:41] <eroomde> if you want to measure air temperatuyre you'll have to work a bit harder, depends hopw much you care about it
[11:41] <AndyEsser> more "operating temperature" of the board, and even then as a rough estimate
[11:41] <eroomde> likewise pressure
[11:41] <eroomde> yeah, that's a useful stat
[11:41] <eroomde> accel is good
[11:41] <eroomde> gyro is good
[11:41] <eroomde> if you just get a combined accel/gyro IC i'd log the lot
[11:41] <eroomde> likewise mag
[11:41] <eroomde> all usefgul data even if you don't use it immediately
[11:41] <AndyEsser> I just basically want to be able to load it up with as many sensors as is feasible :)
[11:42] <AndyEsser> Yea I was thinking a full on IMU
[11:42] <eroomde> so for example you can use 3-axis accel for some fancy-pants tricks like detecting burst and firing a cutdown instantly to avoid any tangling
[11:42] <AndyEsser> o0o
[11:42] <AndyEsser> gives me a reason to investigate pyro's :)
[11:42] <eroomde> if the magnitude of the accel vector drops beneath, say, 0.2g for >100ms (for instance) you could say that's a burst (because the payload is temporarily in freefall then)
[11:43] <eroomde> but for now, just lof everything
[11:43] <eroomde> high speed gps data is good too
[11:43] <AndyEsser> Yea, that's why I want the SD card - so I can just log everything, not necessarily send it over RTTY
[11:43] <eroomde> did you see me parachute talk-ette at the conf?
[11:43] <AndyEsser> and can analyse the data afterwards
[11:43] <AndyEsser> eroomde: Err
[11:43] <AndyEsser> which conf?
[11:43] <eroomde> ukhas
[11:43] <eroomde> 2015
[11:43] <AndyEsser> I think I started watching a 3-part video on GPS
[11:43] <AndyEsser> Yes, sorry, I guessed UKHAS meant year ;)
[11:44] <AndyEsser> Actually no
[11:44] <AndyEsser> I haven't seen it
[11:44] <AndyEsser> I've just seen a diagram on the Wiki that I believe was a product of the talk
[11:44] <RealBorg> AndyEsser, http://www.banggood.com/GY-87-10DOF-MPU6050-HMC5883L-BMP180-Sensor-Module-p-963792.html
[11:44] <eroomde> it was basically just a quick public service annoucnement about how to use and calculate parachutes
[11:45] <eroomde> as people often come on here having been confused by 9 different onkline calculators that disagree with each other
[11:45] <RealBorg> i can even you basic perl code to talk to this sensor
[11:45] <AndyEsser> plastic carrier bag would work fine - wouldn't it?
[11:45] <AndyEsser> :P
[11:45] <eroomde> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7KujrsUB1w&feature=youtu.be&t=3h49m57s
[11:46] <AndyEsser> do you wear anything but shorts?
[11:46] <eroomde> not for hab
[11:46] <AndyEsser> is this video the entire day?
[11:46] <AndyEsser> :)
[11:47] <eroomde> the talk might be a bit torturous about being explicit about what is a force and what is an acceleration and units and so on, hopefully you don't find it too patronising
[11:47] <AndyEsser> what's a force?
[11:47] <eroomde> it's just that people tie themselves in knots about forces vs accelerations vs weight vs mass and 'the force of gravity' and other such general confuse
[11:47] <eroomde> so i laboured it a bit
[11:48] Action: AndyEsser is a muppet
[11:48] <eroomde> but hopefully you will see what i mean about logginggps quickly
[11:48] <AndyEsser> just been hunting around under things to find some paper to write on
[11:48] <AndyEsser> the thing I looked under.... my notebook
[11:53] <AndyEsser> I do want to attempt an airbag landing in the sea at some point :)
[11:57] <AndyEsser> eroomde: the way my code currently works - it keeps a "Last GGA Sentence" from the ublox, but only sends data out (using that occasionally) using that last sentence
[11:57] <AndyEsser> to modifiying it to log out that last GGA sentence as quickly as possible should be fairly easy
[11:57] <AndyEsser> ie GPS position update is unrelated to telemetry send (which is obvious)
[11:57] <eroomde> yes, and that's a good way to decouple it
[11:58] <AndyEsser> Yea, the two are actually unrelated
[11:58] <AndyEsser> so no point forcing the two to be coupled
[12:01] <gonzo__> NMEA stuff comes in at 1sec updates. So even if you were to read in/parse the GGA before sending your telem string, that would not result in any appreciable delay
[12:02] <AndyEsser> Yea - I read and parse the data as it comes in - not at the send end
[12:02] <AndyEsser> I also want to disable a number of sentences from the ublox to reduce processing overhead
[12:03] <gonzo__> (That is how I did it. I complete the telem frame, then wait for a new gga, parse it and format up the next telem string. Worst case is a 1sec of unkeyed carrier)
[12:04] <AndyEsser> atm I have my GPS parse and my Telemetry send contained in a god awful loop so they're kind of lnked atm - but once I've sorted out my hardware interrupt timers they'll be completely decoupled :)
[12:05] <AndyEsser> note to self... just buy 8MHz xtals next time...
[12:05] <gonzo__> mine is all done under interrupt. The handler will get each rs232 character, but will junk it if we are not waiting for a gps packet. Even when sending the soft uart rtty. The processor load is so low that there is no need to bother disabling uart. (On a pic16
[12:08] <AndyEsser> cool
[12:08] <gonzo__> I have a sort of similar loop. The foreground sits flags that it wants a gps frame, so the interrupt handler can clock it in. Waits in a loop till it gets one. Parse and make telem frame in foreground. Then flag to the rtty send (in interrupt again) to start sending and foreground will lloop and wait till it is done. That repeat
[12:16] <AndyEsser> Is short wearing basically mandatory for the UKHAS conference....
[12:16] <AndyEsser> ha
[12:17] <gonzo__> aside: I also just copy the NMEA data directly to the telem frame. I prefered not to do maths on the lat/lon in the air, as the tracker does not need to. keep flight code as simple as poss
[12:18] <AndyEsser> I split the string on the , delimiter - but don't do any maths or manipulation of the string
[12:18] <AndyEsser> of the data*
[12:18] <gonzo__> have seem plenty of trackers that fail when they cross the meridian etc. At least sending the raw strings, youi can still manually recover the data if things go wrong
[12:18] <gonzo__> yep, snap
[12:19] <AndyEsser> Only thing I do is prepend a '-' character based on NS and EW
[12:19] <gonzo__> double snap
[12:19] <gonzo__> NMEA presision and leading zero's can change, but the delimitation is fixed
[12:20] <AndyEsser> yea
[12:20] <AndyEsser> that's why I don't do fixed width chunking or anything
[12:20] <gonzo__> simple, I like simple. (I am simple)
[12:21] <RealBorg> keep it simple brought us to the moon ;)
[12:22] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PIZERO - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PIZERO
[12:22] <gonzo__> I have extra code that can converet the values to use in the tracker, eg triggering things on altitude. But that is separate to the telem
[12:22] <AndyEsser> o0o is daveake doing something?
[12:22] <daveake> might be
[12:23] <gonzo__> dirty bugger
[12:23] <AndyEsser> gonzo__: I'm tempted to do some manip and bring in data from the IMU and stuff - mainly for fun rather than actually using that data
[12:24] <craag> collation of a few decent IMU datasets from different flights would be quite interesting
[12:24] <gonzo__> why not, as long as it is not inrtuding into the simple telem code
[12:24] <craag> particularly with different chutes
[12:24] <AndyEsser> I more meant for positional updates - ie using last best GPS + IMU data since to try and calculate position
[12:24] <AndyEsser> primarily as an interesting challenge
[12:24] <RealBorg> i am running a process reading data from the gps, when it receives a position it writes it to a file and atomically replaces that
[12:24] <AndyEsser> the GPS is unlikely to lose lock mid-flight for long enough to matter
[12:25] <craag> dead reckoning :)
[12:25] <AndyEsser> yep
[12:25] <AndyEsser> part of me kinds of wants to run pure IMU + a start location
[12:25] <craag> some ublox can take the sensors as inputs and do it itself
[12:25] <AndyEsser> and see how accurate I can see it thinks it is when it lands
[12:25] <AndyEsser> craag: yea, not my one unfortunately
[12:25] <craag> oo that would be nice
[12:25] <AndyEsser> basically submarine navigation :)
[12:26] <craag> proper inertial nav
[12:26] <AndyEsser> yea
[12:26] <craag> yeah - tornado used to have quite a unit for doing that too iirc
[12:26] <RealBorg> submarine is very stable compared to a balloon in the wind
[12:26] <gonzo__> the phantom haqd a similat nice gyro unit
[12:27] <eroomde> AndyEsser: eith cheap mems sensors it will think it has just passed the moon and will still be accelerating at 35,000mph
[12:27] <AndyEsser> I suspect I'd move up to a 32-bit CPU for that project though
[12:27] <craag> heh thought that might unfortunately be the case
[12:27] <eroomde> there is an entire massive science to fusing inertial sensor data together to get good estimations, and it's beyond most people
[12:27] <AndyEsser> don't fancy doing that lot with an 8-bit CPU and no hardware float
[12:27] <craag> the gyro units for proper nav are big and heavy
[12:27] <craag> stm32!
[12:28] <gonzo__> the phantom one apparently took a week to spin down. Which caunght more than one tech out. Unbolt grom avionics bay, try to turn sideways to get down ladder. Ladder translates sideways....
[12:28] <craag> but yeah - high-rate logging to sdcard would be a good start ;)
[12:29] <AndyEsser> Yea, I want to have every launch log a complete set of data to an sd card - so need to prototype out and test the hardware and code to do that
[12:29] <AndyEsser> as a minimum
[12:30] <AndyEsser> I had hoped to do my first launch in March, but that doesn't give me much time to have confidence in the designs, and file a NOTAM
[12:30] <gonzo__> I read about someone doing a practical joke, leaving a suitcase with a giro inside, unattended on a platform. And waiting for someopne to try stealing it. (Though these days it would get blown up!)
[12:30] <gonzo__> gyro
[12:30] <AndyEsser> o god... I want to be in Crete eating a giro now...
[12:31] <gonzo__> that's putting a new spin on it
[12:37] Action: cm13g09 hits gonzo__ - Puns cause instability in here....
[12:41] <fsphil> he won't change his position
[12:42] <cm13g09> Hmm.....
[12:42] <fsphil> he'll never be turned around
[12:42] <Ian_> [12:21] <RealBorg> keep it simple brought us to the moon ;)
[12:42] <Ian_> !me looks around
[12:42] <cm13g09> In fairness.. it's always a little bit up in the air in here isn't it.... fsphil
[12:43] <RealBorg> Ian_, "humanity"
[12:43] <gonzo__> another in a long line of puns. A precession?
[12:43] <fsphil> they keep coming around
[12:44] <gonzo__> sort of cyclic?
[12:44] <Ian_> Folks, I have an excuse, but aren't you bods supposed to be earning a crust . . . or is it a long NAAFI break or lunch :)
[12:44] <gonzo__> ed will be in to give us the chop, with one of his axis
[12:44] <fsphil> I'm avoiding fixing a problem in git...
[12:44] <gonzo__> I'm just being a git
[12:46] <Ian_> I had better git going as I have to be elsewhere shortly.
[12:47] <AndyEsser> fsphil: what problem?
[12:47] <fsphil> I moved files around in two different branches
[12:48] <gonzo__> is that two or three pun threads going now??
[12:48] <fsphil> now I can't rebase or merge them without lots of complaining
[12:48] <gonzo__> DON'T CROSS THE STREAMS!!
[12:48] <fsphil> yep, I basically crossed the streams
[12:48] <fsphil> egon was right, it was bad
[12:48] <AndyEsser> yea... you're going to have to deal with that conflict
[12:48] <fsphil> yeah, trying the interactive rebase thing. never used it before
[12:49] <AndyEsser> I have never, in 5 years of using git - had to use rebase
[12:49] <fsphil> well it was handy. my live branch would get small updates now and then
[12:49] <fsphil> rebase brought them into my devel branch
[12:50] <AndyEsser> why not just a normal merge?
[12:50] <AndyEsser> is there a particular rason you need the commits played in order?
[12:50] <fsphil> not really
[12:50] <fsphil> my git level is "uses it daily but doesn't really understand it"
[12:51] <AndyEsser> fair enough
[12:51] <AndyEsser> my issue with rebase is it alters history - which is something I don't like doing
[12:51] <AndyEsser> every TV show and movie ever that deal with time travel has taught me that
[12:52] <fsphil> except quantum leap
[12:52] <fsphil> that always worked out well
[12:52] <AndyEsser> I've never actually seen it
[12:52] <AndyEsser> he'll always be Captain Archer to me
[12:53] <fsphil> another show that ended on a high
[12:53] <fsphil> it was just getting good
[12:53] <AndyEsser> Indeed
[12:53] <AndyEsser> Despite what many people thought of Enterprise - I really enjoyed it
[12:54] <AndyEsser> think I might be due another watch soon
[12:54] <AndyEsser> currently hooked on The Expanse
[12:54] <AndyEsser> but as it's currently being aired - I have to wait 1 week between episodes
[12:54] <AndyEsser> such an archaic method of media delivery
[12:54] <fsphil> yeah I've been watching some repeats of enterprise, it was fairly solid most of the time
[12:55] <fsphil> seen phil plait was paid to advertise the expanse
[12:55] <AndyEsser> I don't know who that is
[12:56] <fsphil> the bad astronomer
[12:56] <fsphil> who's actually pretty good
[12:56] <AndyEsser> that doesn't narrow it down ;)
[12:56] <AndyEsser> haha
[12:56] Action: AndyEsser googles
[12:56] <fsphil> https://twitter.com/BadAstronomer
[12:56] <RealBorg> star trek seems to have some good scientific consultants
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[13:00] <AndyEsser> Does Steve Randall ever come into the channel?
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[13:03] <fsphil> now and then
[13:03] <fsphil> not heard from him in a while actually
[13:03] <AndyEsser> just watching a video he recorded of a launch
[13:03] <fsphil> he might be hibernating for the winter
[13:03] <AndyEsser> keeping an eye out for things I might miss
[13:03] <fsphil> he's RocketBoy on irc
[13:05] <AndyEsser> cheers
[13:11] <BARC> Steve had had some unfortunate circumstances just before Christmas so that could be why he's not been here recently
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[13:17] <AndyEsser> can somebody explain the concept behind the bottles of water or whatever, that are attached when filling
[13:17] <AndyEsser> I presume that's suppose to be payload weight + something to show when it has enough lift?
[13:18] <craag> fill them up until they weigh your desired neck lift
[13:18] <craag> - hose weight
[13:19] <craag> and then when you're filling, once the balloon *just* lifts them - you're done!
[13:19] <AndyEsser> and the neck lift is what would effect the ascent rate?
[13:19] <craag> yes, see http://habhub.org/calc/
[13:19] <craag> neck lift is payload weight + free lift
[13:19] <craag> free lift is what gives you the upwards force
[13:20] <AndyEsser> Yep - gotcha
[13:20] <AndyEsser> thanks
[13:20] <craag> you should aim for an ascent rate of ~5m/s
[13:20] <AndyEsser> I just wanted to check that what I had in mind was actually accurate
[13:20] <craag> :)
[13:21] <AndyEsser> so if I have a payload of 500g - the neck list will be 500g + whatever free lift I need to reach a ~5m/s ascent rate
[13:21] <AndyEsser> neck lift*
[13:22] <craag> exactly.
[13:22] <fsphil> some people have used luggage scales upside down. but the water bottle method is more accurate
[13:22] <R6mco> is there also a calculator for a floater?
[13:23] <craag> luggage scales can be a pain when there's wind and the balloon is bobbing up and down..
[13:23] <fsphil> the weight of the filling pipe is a bit annoying
[13:23] <craag> 0, 99, 2, 96, 43, 13, 82, etc...
[13:23] <fsphil> yeah. though filling in general with wind is tricky
[13:23] <craag> yeah
[13:24] <fsphil> unless you have one of those fancy flow meter things with automatic cut-off :)
[13:25] <craag> R6mco: There's several ways of floating, different envelopes, and different tricks that affect things - so a calculator is hard to make
[13:25] <craag> people just tend to find one combination that works, and then optimise it.
[13:25] <fsphil> the tolerances for floating seem to be quite tight, it can be unpredictable
[13:26] <R6mco> craag: understood
[13:26] <craag> simple up-burst-down latex weather balloon is a lot easier to model :)
[13:26] <R6mco> I suggested at our radioclub to try a balloon once
[13:26] <R6mco> craag: burst .. I know
[13:27] <AndyEsser> I'd like to make a floater sometime as well
[13:27] <AndyEsser> lots on my list of things to do
[13:27] <fsphil> I like the floater flights. makes recovery much easier
[13:27] <AndyEsser> ha
[13:28] <craag> a light-as-possible payload under a qualatex 36" is the cheapest and easiest way to give it a go
[13:28] <R6mco> I am somewhat inspired by the picospace balloons , and world wide tracking them
[13:28] <craag> 12-36h seems reasonably doable
[13:28] <craag> depending on weather
[13:28] <daveake> It is rather nice to launch a balloon then have a cuppa or beer instead of chasing it
[13:31] <gonzo__> I factor the value of the payload, the probability of recovering it and the cost of fuel. It does not hav eto go very far at all to not be worth chasing
[13:35] <AndyEsser> I'm quite looking forward to a chase
[13:35] <AndyEsser> I don't mind long drives and hunting things down
[13:35] <AndyEsser> so... if anyone is planning a launch and needs someone to volunteer recovery... let me know :)
[13:35] <AndyEsser> (UK only...)
[13:35] <daveake> All part of the fun
[13:35] <daveake> But sometimes it's nice to launch and relax :)
[13:36] <AndyEsser> Yea, I'd been tempted to wrap up my breadboard testbed, strap it to a pico sized balloon or something and just let it go
[13:37] <eroomde> gliders are the answer
[13:38] <daveake> yes
[13:38] <daveake> launch, bbq, beer, payload lands next to you
[13:39] <fsphil> I had the parafoil out yesterday. it got tangled again
[13:39] <daveake> hah yeah that's their natural state
[13:40] <fsphil> I need to make a little plastic thing that keeps them apart
[13:40] <fsphil> sure there's a proper name for that
[13:41] <AndyEsser> o god
[13:41] <AndyEsser> recommended videos next to Steves launch
[13:41] <AndyEsser> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KVgP6RLr_Q
[13:41] <fsphil> lol
[13:41] <fsphil> the youtube recommended video thing is totally broken
[13:44] <fsphil> the comments are worse
[13:44] <AndyEsser> I think I've just lost some brain cells
[13:44] <AndyEsser> committed suicide from the stupidity
[13:46] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RPF-A1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RPF-A1
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[13:48] <eroomde> python code blowing up cos something wanting complex numbers got a real
[13:49] <AndyEsser> Shizz got real, dawg
[13:49] <eroomde> this kind of BS does make you look longingly at languages with proper type systems
[13:49] <AndyEsser> Strong Typing FTW :)
[13:50] <eroomde> i think i'd prefer static typing in this case
[13:51] <eroomde> to tell me i'm being an idiot before i try and load the huge data file and do other stuff to it and eventually get to this little time-bomb bit of code
[13:51] <eroomde> static strong
[13:55] <AndyEsser> according to the tracker, if I launch now... it'll end up in arctic ocean just north of Alaska...
[13:56] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: so use labview
[13:56] <Laurenceb_> /troll
[13:58] <AndyEsser> "Gateway drug picture"
[13:58] <AndyEsser> ha
[14:01] <eroomde> ?
[14:01] <AndyEsser> from your talk at the conf last year
[14:04] <eroomde> o
[14:11] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BARC after 032 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BARC
[14:25] <AndyEsser> And now predictor says landing in Cambridge.... in Canada
[14:25] <AndyEsser> ha
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[14:26] <fsphil> this the live predictor?
[14:26] <AndyEsser> yea
[14:26] <AndyEsser> the prediction line on the tracker
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[14:41] <BARC> is it possible to tell the prediction line on the tracker how high you're expecting to go?
[14:41] <BARC> or does it make some assumptions?
[14:41] <Ian_> estimations!
[14:42] <BARC> based on?
[14:42] <craag> The burst altitude is currently hardcoded server side
[14:42] <AndyEsser> That seems slightly inflexible
[14:42] <AndyEsser> :)
[14:42] <craag> If you ask nicely in #habhub they may be able to change it for your flight
[14:42] <Ian_> I'm just noise. I think that adamgreig and a few others can answer your questions
[14:44] <craag> AndyEsser: It is, I think there's a few predictor-related todos that are currently waiting for the new predictor engine
[14:44] <AndyEsser> Is that being worked on?
[14:45] <craag> Yes, it's an active project at CUSF
[14:45] <AndyEsser> ah cool
[14:45] <AndyEsser> I presume it's not as simple as: Take Current Position, Add Wind velocity, Increment Time step,
[14:45] <AndyEsser> ?
[14:45] <craag> Not quite ;)
[14:46] <craag> The new one will also model floats, and rockets.
[14:46] <AndyEsser> cool
[14:49] <craag> The core is done as far as I understand, it's the UIs that are dragging on.
[14:50] <AndyEsser> heh
[14:50] <AndyEsser> Make it pretty!
[14:50] <AndyEsser> :)
[14:50] <craag> I have seen shots of early versions, and it was very pretty :D
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[14:58] <AndyEsser> I'm guessing I could reuse parachutes - as long as I recovered them and checked for damage?
[14:58] <daveake> sure
[14:59] <daveake> I've left a couple on trees
[14:59] <daveake> They can snag at the top of the tree
[14:59] <daveake> That's when you find out that chutes and trees are both pretty strong
[15:00] <AndyEsser> heh
[15:00] <AndyEsser> although parachute isn't the most expensive bit... bit good if I could recover and reuse balloons
[15:00] <AndyEsser> ha
[15:01] <gonzo__> we re-used a mat office sonde chute, that came down in a friends garden
[15:01] <gonzo__> met
[15:01] <gonzo__> and it was recovcered, so can fly a third time if req
[15:02] <AndyEsser> woo
[15:02] <adamgreig> AndyEsser: at its simplest it is basically "new position = old position + wind velocity"
[15:02] <adamgreig> but as ever devil is in the details
[15:02] <adamgreig> specifically if you do it that naively over a short time period you get incredibly rubbish results
[15:02] <AndyEsser> do you factor in existing velocity and things as well?
[15:03] <adamgreig> lots of better ways to do the numerical integration
[15:03] <adamgreig> but really the other problems are "how do you get the wind velocity" and "how do you do this quickly" and user interfaces and ascent/descent profiles and stuff
[15:03] <adamgreig> it's all open source https://github.com/cuspaceflight/tawhiri/
[15:04] <AndyEsser> cheers
[15:05] <BARC> Thanks for the info, very interesting
[15:05] <Vostok> adamgreig: wind velocity * time step, surely
[15:05] <eroomde> yes i think that's safely implied
[15:06] <adamgreig> so the biggest clever thing the predictor does really is have 24GB of wind data quickly accessible and downloading a fresh set every 6 hours
[15:06] <adamgreig> that it can also simulate a 3 hour balloon flight, in python, in about 2ms, is nice too
[15:07] <AndyEsser> does the NOAA model basically just provide wind velocity at a given XYZ
[15:07] <AndyEsser> (to some sort of resolution)
[15:07] <adamgreig> well
[15:07] <adamgreig> if only
[15:07] <adamgreig> it gives a predicted wind velocity at every half degree grid point for a range of atmospheric pressures
[15:07] <adamgreig> you can map the pressures into altitudes using pressure predictions
[15:07] <adamgreig> and it does so on a regular time grid
[15:08] <adamgreig> so you just have to interpolate between latitude, longitude, pressure-altitude, and time, inside a 16 point hypercube sort of thing
[15:09] <adamgreig> you can be more or less clever with interpolating
[15:09] <[1]michal_f> sounds easy ... everyone knows how 16 point hypercube looks like ;P
[15:09] <adamgreig> likewise you can do new position = old position + velocity * dt, but that's euler integration and not numerically stable or good really
[15:09] <adamgreig> so we do a more complicated rk4 integration
[15:09] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Imaad_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Imaad_chase
[15:09] <adamgreig> then you have to know how fast the balloon is going up and coming down which is relatively ok but involves again working out the current pressure at altitude for drag equations
[15:10] <adamgreig> really as craag said the remaining work is javascript and html and css to make a pretty web interface that's easy to use and supports floats and builds-in the burst calculator
[15:10] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03MH-43-AT-6990_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=MH-43-AT-6990_chase
[15:10] <adamgreig> but at the start of an 8 hour working session on that we found a flaw in the burst calculator assumptions
[15:10] <adamgreig> which derailed everything
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[15:14] <eroomde> kicad q
[15:14] <eroomde> re: multiple grounds which are electrically connected
[15:14] <eroomde> say i want to do a kelvin connection across a sense resistor
[15:14] <eroomde> of which one leg is connected to gnd
[15:15] <eroomde> in eagle you can do a bodge single-pad pointless link thing to connect the 'gnd' leg of the sense resistor to actual gnd, and that letts you keep an airwire from the amplifier input directly to the resistor leg
[15:16] <eroomde> rather than the amplifier input just directly connecting to its local gnd pour or whatever
[15:16] <eroomde> you know what i mean as you must have done this before so i'll stop torturously explaining. Basically, is there a more elegant way of differentiationing between regions of gnd (or whatever) in kicad?
[15:20] <adamgreig> so i will just use different gnd nets
[15:20] <adamgreig> agnd, dgnd, pgnd, gnd, etc
[15:20] <adamgreig> and bond them whereever it is i want, e.g. through a sense resistor
[15:21] <adamgreig> uhm
[15:22] <adamgreig> oh sorry I think I misunderstood
[15:23] <adamgreig> you have an amp where the inputs are gnd and the top of a sense resistor, and you don't want the - input to just flood fill to any old gnd, you want it to go to the leg of the resistor before it goes to gnd?
[15:23] <eroomde> precisely
[15:23] <eroomde> i want a nice differential pair routed back across the board from sense resistor to amp inputs
[15:25] <eroomde> in eagle i have a p;ointless 2-port components called 'pointless link' which is actually just a pad. I insert it between resistor leg and gnd, that means the 'gnd' sense trace to the op-amp thinks its connected between two components (resistor leg and pointless link) rather than just to gnd
[15:25] <eroomde> problem solved, cludge unhappiness increased
[15:29] <adamgreig> hmm
[15:30] <eroomde> don't worry about it if there's not an obvious right way
[15:30] <eroomde> i'll figure something out
[15:30] <adamgreig> yea I think I've mostly either done it just in pcbnew or done as you describe
[15:30] <adamgreig> certainly you're not the only one: https://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Pavilion
[15:32] <eroomde> yeah, that's exactly it
[15:32] <eroomde> oh well, there are no new ideas etc
[15:33] <eroomde> i can't tell you how nice it is to have pin numbers in layout view
[15:44] <AndyEsser> !
[15:44] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
[15:44] <AndyEsser> Scope is being shipped today :)
[15:45] <craag> rigol?
[15:46] <AndyEsser> Yarp
[15:46] <craag> sweeet :)
[15:46] <AndyEsser> Doubtful it'll arrive tomorrow :(
[15:46] <AndyEsser> but o well
[15:50] <AndyEsser> uh oh
[15:50] <AndyEsser> think my tracker might've finally stopped working
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[15:53] <AndyEsser> or maybe not... logtail shows it arriving correctly :)
[15:53] <AndyEsser> just not updating on the map view
[15:53] <AndyEsser> a ha - it's lost GPS lock
[15:53] <daveake> yup
[15:54] <AndyEsser> also apparently my code returns -0,-0 when no lock
[15:54] <AndyEsser> not 0, 0
[15:54] <AndyEsser> should probably change that
[15:54] <AndyEsser> ha
[15:54] <daveake> yeah
[15:54] <daveake> also, if it loses lock, it's best if it re-sends the last known position
[15:55] <daveake> at least then if the gps loses lock after landing, you'll still find it
[15:55] <AndyEsser> Yea, that'll require a slight change in code - but easily possibly
[15:55] <AndyEsser> possible*
[15:55] <AndyEsser> and it's back :)
[15:59] <Ian_> And here I thought that zero was both a positive and an even number. Despite not being divisible by two
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[16:20] <critcalmass> Is there a part of the UK, recognised for being the 'golden' launch point for HAB?
[16:21] <critcalmass> I live in Surry, right by a laod of major airports, so I can't launch from here.
[16:21] <critcalmass> Oah, hello all. Sorry, that one didn't send.
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[16:29] <AndyEsser> critcalmass: taking a 'quick' trip around the M25 to East Anglia is properly your best bet
[16:30] <AndyEsser> very flat, not that populated, and if something goes wrong etc, it's more likely to end up in the North Sea than someone's greenhouse :)
[16:32] <Vaizki> Greenhouses are cheap to repair you know
[16:32] <critcalmass> Is it wrong of me to prefer my hard work to go into someone's greenhouse, rather than the sea?
[16:32] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: I'd rather not have to deal with an angry pensioner ;)
[16:32] <AndyEsser> critcalmass: then head the other, down towards Salisbury plain or something :)
[16:33] <Ian_> More likely to get a fix on your package from a greenhouse owner and glass is cheap at about £3.50 a sheet
[16:33] <Ian_> Pensioners are pussycats as long as you arrive with a small gift!
[16:34] <critcalmass> Good call. I've only got the army to contend with then. I'm ex-raf so they'll be on the back foot from the off! I think the west country might be the best bet though.
[16:34] <adamgreig> cambridge is a classic spot for balloon launches
[16:34] <adamgreig> not great in winter as far as winds go though
[16:34] <adamgreig> new forest is also nice and not so far from surrey
[16:35] <Ian_> Also ex RAF
[16:35] <daveake> Yeah for winter, west is good. For summer, ideally you want somewhere close to a sparcely populated area
[16:36] <daveake> (low popluation of people, trees and airports. Not necessarily in that order)
[16:36] <Ian_> Trees rarely ring-back
[16:37] <critcalmass> Ha, cheers chaps.
[16:37] <critcalmass> Ian_: How long have you been a civvy?
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[16:43] <AndyEsser> o0o according to the text I just got from Interlink - it will arrive tomorrow :)
[16:43] <AndyEsser> Ah, I see we have some Brylcream boys in here :)
[16:44] <AndyEsser> sorry :
[16:44] <AndyEsser> :P*
[16:46] <critcalmass> Ha, it's a long time since anyone has called me that. I'm a little follicly challenged :-)
[16:47] <Oddstr13> any recommendation on screwdriver brand? /me is currently looking at the list of torx T10 screwdrivers on farnell
[16:47] Nick change: Guest78999 -> nigelvh
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[16:50] <AndyEsser> critcalmass: didn't serve myself, but my father was in the Army for 36 years - so I've been conditioned against RAF boys :)
[16:51] <eroomde> Oddstr13: i have and like Bahco for my electrical hand screwdrivers
[16:51] <eroomde> i usually serve myself
[16:51] <eroomde> too hungry to wait for someone else to
[16:51] <AndyEsser> hur hur hur
[16:51] <AndyEsser> speaking of which
[16:52] <AndyEsser> I presume there's a good pub not far from you? :)
[16:52] <eroomde> yes
[16:52] <eroomde> we have plenty of options
[16:52] <AndyEsser> good
[16:52] <AndyEsser> I will be ravenous when I get there
[16:52] <AndyEsser> nice early start
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[16:53] <Oddstr13> eroomde: so, this one should be good? http://no.farnell.com/ergo-bahco/be-8910/screwdriver-torx-t10x65mm/dp/7238174
[16:54] <Ian_> criticalmass 1988
[16:54] <Ian_> Telegraphist/Communication Controller. Expect the TG11 is now history like Cold War Warriors
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[16:56] <Ian_> Gone - must have reached . . . critical mass
[16:56] <AndyEsser> *facedesk*
[16:56] <Ian_> No fingerprints on your new scope when it arrives
[16:56] <AndyEsser> aww
[16:57] <AndyEsser> I'm going to have to resist setting it up at work
[16:57] <AndyEsser> unless it arrives in the morning then I can play at lunch time
[16:57] <critcalmass> Still here Ian_
[16:57] <critcalmass> I didn't join until 1999!
[16:57] <Vaizki> Wiha and Bahco screwdrivers for me
[16:57] <critcalmass> Left in 2009.
[16:58] <Ian_> The world has changed a few times since I joined up in 1964
[16:58] <Vaizki> :D
[16:59] <critcalmass> What was your trade, Ian_?
[16:59] <Ian_> Telegraphist / Communication Controller and you?
[17:00] <Ian_> For the unwashed, this is a standard question. Not it was not What branch were you!
[17:00] <Ian_> :)
[17:00] <Ian_> Note
[17:01] <critcalmass> I joined as an aircraft electrician, but my trade was soon almalgamated with avionics. So I left as a fairy.
[17:01] <critcalmass> And not a DF :-D
[17:02] <critcalmass> And beore that
[17:02] Kodar (~Kodar@78-1-252-191.adsl.net.t-com.hr) joined #highaltitude.
[17:02] <critcalmass> ... Avionics were Air Comms, Air Radar and Air Photo
[17:02] <critcalmass> But they were all merged years ago.
[17:03] <critcalmass> So while I'm here asking all sorts of dumb questions about HAB, if anybody needs any avionic advice, I'm all ears.
[17:04] <adamgreig> did you use spec 55
[17:04] <Vaizki> We're more like ntsb here
[17:04] <critcalmass> As long as it's military helicopter with two rotor head related.
[17:04] <Vaizki> Trying to find where it crashed
[17:04] <AndyEsser> Right - home time
[17:04] <AndyEsser> back in a bit
[17:05] <critcalmass> adamgreig: yep, still do
[17:05] <adamgreig> yay
[17:05] <adamgreig> what connectors do you like
[17:05] <critcalmass> That's pretty much what aircraft are held together with.
[17:06] <critcalmass> Sexy ones.
[17:07] <critcalmass> The Amphenol 602 series are very common on Chinook. Crimped pin variation. They're a doddle to work with.
[17:08] <critcalmass> Some of our new kit used the GlenAir Mighty Mouse and they are really bad.
[17:08] <adamgreig> is 602GB like 62GB?
[17:08] <adamgreig> I've used 62GB and they're very nice
[17:08] <adamgreig> they look vaguely similar
[17:08] <Ian_> I did Wittering, Khormaksar(Aden), NATO Northwood, Tengah(Singapore), NORMAR(Pitrievie Castle), Maastricht, Digby, Boddington, UKRAOC(High Wycombe), DADPTC(Blandford Forum), Ascension, back to DADPTC and then civvy street
[17:08] <critcalmass> I don't know tbh, not without getting a catalogue out.
[17:10] <critcalmass> Bloody hell Ian_!!! That's mental. Times have changed now. I was only in for 10 years, but I did RAF Odiham (Chinook) and RAF Aldergrove - NI (Chinook).
[17:10] <critcalmass> Plus various dets, some operational, some not.
[17:10] <critcalmass> 1 trip to Afghan and 4 to Iraq.
[17:11] <Ian_> When I came out of training TG11 had what was known as an adverse Home to oversease ratio. Next posting in the mail on disembarkation leave . . .
[17:11] <Ian_> By 1975 All trades had a waiting list for any oversease posting of nigh on 7 years
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[17:12] <Ian_> They promised to nuke us but not so much in the form of IED and rounds - except beer and sandwiches from the NAAFI
[17:14] <Ian_> So I came into electronics and programming through Operating. I guess your experience was from the other direction, with Operating (ham licence) yet to come!
[17:15] <Ian_> Sorry mixing you up with Andyesser
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[17:19] <critcalmass> :-)
[17:21] <critcalmass> Yeah, I don't really have any inerest in operating HAM. I'm an engineer at heart and for my this HAB project is a typical system engineering project. I just have to play the part of hardware engineer, software engineer and operator as well :-)
[17:23] <Ian_> A licence gives a useful playground for a lot of RF stuff when all said and done.
[17:23] <critcalmass> The radio operating side of things is really just an enabler for me to be able to complete the project. However, looking at some of the SDR software out there, it is bulging the old interest gland a little ;-)
[17:24] <critcalmass> Understood Ian_, I certainly haven't ruled it out.
[17:24] <mfa298> there's quite a few people here that have HAM radio licenses that don't use them to talk much. The training / exams cover lots of RF / electronic basic that are useful
[17:24] <Ian_> I just wish a lot of the kit we are playing around with now was around twenty to thirty years ago
[17:25] <Ian_> it's mind blowing really. So many good projects and ICs to get to grips with
[17:25] <daveake> Yeah I found it interesting to do; just a shame we can't use it for payloads
[17:25] <Ian_> :-)
[17:25] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03hello_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=hello_chase
[17:26] <Ian_> Rewmember daveake that we didn't have CB at one time either!
[17:26] <daveake> I remember when that started ...
[17:26] <mfa298> you can make some use of the Full license if you do floaters at least, although technically probably over some EU countries + USA (and a few others which are harder to reach)
[17:26] <daveake> ... I made a jammer to to and shut up a local operator :/
[17:27] <daveake> True mfa298
[17:27] <adamgreig> you can't use a UK licence airborne over the USA
[17:27] <adamgreig> (but you can over much of the EU..)
[17:28] <Ian_> Best not to jam, just to tweak a little - activate the HAM self destruct mechanism!
[17:28] <AndyEsser> I've returned!
[17:28] <AndyEsser> what idd I miss?
[17:28] <Ian_> Not a lot really!
[17:28] <mfa298> adamgreig: USA is part of CEPT, or do they have some restriction on what foreigners can do ?
[17:29] <adamgreig> they're not "part" of CEPT
[17:29] <adamgreig> (not least because they're not in europe)
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[17:29] <adamgreig> instead their FCC part 97 allows cept operators to operate in the USA with the subset of a USA general licence and their home licence powers
[17:29] <AndyEsser> Ian_: my dad and thus the family travelled a lot in the 70's/80's overseas - don't think it's so common in any of the Forces now
[17:29] <AndyEsser> UK <> Afghan
[17:30] <adamgreig> https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2013-title47-vol5/xml/CFR-2013-title47-vol5-sec97-107.xml
[17:32] <Ian_> I did Cyprus and Malaysia with my folks
[17:32] <Ian_> as a kid
[17:32] <AndyEsser> Ian_: Germany and Brunei were the big ones for me
[17:33] <adamgreig> the USA is a party on http://www.erodocdb.dk/docs/doc98/official/pdf/TR6101.PDF
[17:33] <AndyEsser> Dad did Singapore and places before he had a family
[17:33] <AndyEsser> however my favourite posting was RAF Wattisham :)
[17:33] <adamgreig> which lays out the CEPT terms for non-CEPT countries
[17:33] <Ian_> What did they fly from Wattisham, lightnings?
[17:33] <adamgreig> so your UK Full licence is a CEPT licence which gets you a US Amateur Extra licence
[17:33] <AndyEsser> It was all helicopters - Lynx and Gazelle
[17:33] <AndyEsser> and then the first shipment of AH-64's I believe
[17:34] <AndyEsser> but we left just before they arrived :(
[17:34] <adamgreig> but the authorisation for that says you have "the operating terms and conditions of the amateur service license granted by the alien's government", which in our case is no airborne
[17:34] <Ian_> Were they the ones that stayed in storage for absolutely ages
[17:34] <adamgreig> I mean, I suspect you'd get away with it...
[17:35] <Ian_> Not too difficult to get a US licence
[17:35] <adamgreig> indeed
[17:35] <adamgreig> I did the tech, general and extra exams all back to back in about an hour?
[17:35] <adamgreig> and no practical test
[17:35] <AndyEsser> Ian_: wouldn't surprise me - I think it was the same time that it was decided you had to be an officer to fly them - and therefore cut the avaiable number of pilots down to basically no-one
[17:36] <mfa298> adamgreig: The being signed up to CEPT / TR61/01 is what I was meaning by part of CEPT. obviously they're not part of the EU, but there are a few non EU coutries that are joined up with the CEPT agreement.
[17:36] <adamgreig> the USA isn't a CEPT country
[17:36] <adamgreig> the CEPT document differentiates
[17:36] <adamgreig> http://www.erodocdb.dk/docs/doc98/official/pdf/TR6101.PDF
[17:37] <adamgreig> table 1 is cept countries, does not include USA
[17:37] <adamgreig> annex 4 table 2 is non-CEPT countries which have an agreement
[17:37] <adamgreig> does include USA
[17:37] <Vaizki> ceptic countries
[17:37] <Ian_> Vietnam certainly gave a lot of people helicopter flying skills - very transferable skill set
[17:38] <AndyEsser> Ian_: helicopters are easy - wiggly stick + handbrake
[17:38] <AndyEsser> ;)
[17:38] <Ian_> lol
[17:38] <Vaizki> helicopters are also really really expensive
[17:38] <AndyEsser> Cyclic and Collective (I'm not completely unknowledgeable)
[17:38] <AndyEsser> hehe
[17:39] <Ian_> You could probably afford one Vaizki, except you spend all your pocket money on test equipment
[17:39] <adamgreig> so in my view it's fairly clear that a UK licence-holder cannot operate airborne in the USA
[17:39] <mfa298> The Recommendation as revised in 1992 has the aim to make it possible fo
[17:39] <mfa298> r non
[17:39] <mfa298> -
[17:39] <mfa298> CEPT countries to
[17:39] <mfa298> participate in this licensing system.
[17:39] <adamgreig> but as a USA licence holder I can't use my UK licence in any FAA territory anyway so :P
[17:39] <adamgreig> or FCC rather
[17:39] <Vaizki> Ian, I only go for a good deal ;)
[17:39] <mfa298> hmm, that failed on the copy and paste. I think that's pretty much what I was trying to say
[17:40] <adamgreig> mfa298: yep - the USA participate as per annex 3, but they're not a CEPT country and only implement CEPT as per their own laws, which are in 97.107
[17:40] <Vaizki> and most of it I bought on my wife's company tab :)
[17:40] <Ian_> Sounds like a good plan!
[17:40] <mfa298> I'm pretty sure that the same applies to the EU countries in the CEPT agreement, that they can place limits on what visitors can do.
[17:41] <adamgreig> hmm
[17:41] <adamgreig> possibly? not sure they necessarily can
[17:41] <adamgreig> but e.g. france doesn't allow airborne amateur either iirc, so CEPT visitors must oblige that
[17:41] <adamgreig> you always expect to be bound by the local rules
[17:41] <adamgreig> just the USA is unusual in additionally binding you by your home rules
[17:43] <eroomde> c.f. taxes
[17:44] <adamgreig> that's more the other way around
[17:44] <adamgreig> but yes also a bit weird
[17:44] <AndyEsser> eroomde: c.f.?
[17:44] <adamgreig> guess that's what they get for having federal and state tax though?
[17:44] <adamgreig> meaningless
[17:44] <adamgreig> "cf." means "compare to" in latin though
[17:44] <adamgreig> cf. being short for conferre and should not have a dot in the middle :P
[17:45] <AndyEsser> ah - that's not how I read it
[17:45] <critcalmass> Well my RAF career was pretty much GB > NI > GB > AFGHAN > GB > (IRAQ > GB) X2 > NI > (IRAQ > NI) X2
[17:45] <AndyEsser> seems more polite and relevant in that case then
[17:45] <mfa298> and there are potentially some EU countries that are not signed up to CEPT as well (although I think almost all are)
[17:45] <adamgreig> well maybe eroomde meant charlie foxtrot :P
[17:45] <eroomde> no i just gave it a dot it didn't deserve
[17:46] <mfa298> I may have been remembering the local rules apply bit for cept, but then that would allow for the local rules to place extra restrictons on those visiting, as the USA does
[17:46] <adamgreig> hmm yea I guess that's true. CEPT might say that you must get the same licence that nationals do but I'm not sure if it does and cba reading it right now :P
[17:47] <adamgreig> all a gigantic pain if you want to operate in the amateur service on a long duration floater over 60 countries
[17:48] <mfa298> but then half the AR licening is crazy. Someone with both UK and USA licenses could launch 2 payloads (1 USA call, 1 UK call) and legally only one could transmit when over international waters/
[17:48] <adamgreig> lol
[17:48] <adamgreig> I think the same payload could swap callsigns at will
[17:49] <mfa298> I'm assuming the USA license allows airborne transmission over water, but plenty of Americans seem to do it so you'd hope it's allowed.
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[17:50] <adamgreig> i think it's a little weird, because it mostly talks about US-registered airplanes
[17:51] <mfa298> true, which makes the legallities even more mad (although I think the UK license says you need to "shutdown the station" when changing callsigns
[17:51] <adamgreig> it's all crazy rule lawyering and you can bet neither ofcom nor fcc would commit to anything anyway
[17:51] <adamgreig> just gotta try it and hope you don't get found guilty by a jury in california or something
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[17:59] <Ian_> 'Shutdown the station' == drop carrier for some mseconds!
[18:00] <Ian_> Legally the effective ownership of The Equipment transfers with the callsign in use at any given time.
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[18:04] <Vaizki> A global floater would probably need a hefty doze of "ask forgiveness instead of permission" was always my impression...
[18:04] <Vaizki> Dose
[18:05] <Ian_> So much more effective and diplomatic of course.
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[18:10] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> evening
[18:15] <mfa298> Vaizki: I think that's how most people have operated and is probably ok for the occasional balloon.
[18:15] <mfa298> there's always the: "well you know where it is, feel free to go turn it off" approach if someone does complain
[18:18] <Ian_> Hidden in plain sight at 35km
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> adamgreig: 'terms' - can the terms be read as to say you can't be airborne over the UK?
[18:22] <adamgreig> hmm
[18:22] <Ian_> No, the licence prohibits airborne operation.
[18:23] <adamgreig> does it..
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> Does the licence specify it only applies in the UK?
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> http://arxiv.org/abs/1601.03256 'I don't want to say it's aliens. But it's aliens'
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> 'Within the context of dust-occultation models, the century-long dimming trend requires 10^4 to 10^7 times as much dust as for the one deepest Kepler dip. Within the context of the comet-family idea, the century-long dimming trend requires an estimated 648,000 giant comets (each with 200 km diameter) all orchestrated to pass in front of the star within the last century.
[18:24] <adamgreig> it says, 2(1), the licensee may only operate the radio equipment in the UK subject to (c) the radio equipment may not be established or used in any aircraft or airborne vehicle
[18:25] <adamgreig> so you might have a point
[18:26] <adamgreig> but it's quite a confused section
[18:26] <adamgreig> "The licensee may only operate the radio equipment in the united kingdom subject to b) where this licence is a full licence only, the licensee may operate the radio equipment in countries which have implemented CEPT"
[18:26] <adamgreig> so you may only operate the equipment in the united kingdom in countries which have implemented CEPT
[18:28] <adamgreig> I think possibly the reading is "you may operate only in the UK, except full licence may operate maritime mobile, in CEPT countries, and no one may operate airborne"
[18:30] <Ian_> Over international waters, your UK licence TC&Rs apply. If you have no licence, who's duristiction would you fall under over international waters . . . Good question.
[18:30] <adamgreig> ITU
[18:30] <Vaizki> I am not condoning breaking laws of sovereign states of course.
[18:30] <adamgreig> I like to hope that UK T&Cs only apply in international waters when you use your UK licence
[18:30] <adamgreig> i.e. transmit under your UK callsign
[18:31] <Ian_> Exactly my point
[18:31] <adamgreig> but in that case it's quite weird that the UK licence specifically gives you permission to operate in CEPT countries
[18:31] <adamgreig> could it withhold permission?
[18:32] <Ian_> Yes by means of revokation of your licence . . . presumably.
[18:32] <Vaizki> I don't think so...
[18:32] <adamgreig> you can see why harmonised APRS is so appealing
[18:32] <adamgreig> uhm
[18:32] <adamgreig> harmonised ISM I mean
[18:32] <Ian_> Unlicensed over international waters ITU and others would have a bun fight working out who should bring legal proceedings
[18:33] <Vaizki> Then again I'm a bloody liberal who thinks everything is allowed if not forbidden
[18:33] <mfa298> from the quick scan of the TR61/01 doc earlier, some countries have seperate bits of paper for the national license and for nationals who want to use CEPT, so that line is presumably part of the clarrification that one bit of paper covers both uses
[18:33] <adamgreig> I guess that would make sense
[18:33] <adamgreig> feel like it could just say "this is a cept licence"
[18:33] <Ian_> Even under CEPT, you might need to import the Radio Equipment legally!
[18:35] <adamgreig> :P
[18:35] <mfa298> I think P1-3 do efectively say this is a cept license as well. no doubt some of whats in the license conditions come from previous variations so might be redundant
[18:36] <Ian_> I guess so, that was why Ofcom had a review and re-wrote it last year . . . :)
[18:39] <mfa298> not that they re-wrote much
[18:40] <mfa298> I suspect a lot is still very similar to the old and defunct BR68, with a few subtle changes to trip up those that dont stay with the times
[18:41] <Ian_> It's still as woolly as it was. Loosely described as a legal document -- lots of guidance but short on some hard facts.
[18:41] <Ian_> I like to throw cryptography into any Ham discussion, for the polarised reactions.
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[18:43] <Ian_> If I send a CW message with first and last group reading DRILL, then who is to say if the text is encrypted or random groups?
[18:43] <Ian_> for operator training.
[18:43] <mfa298> you could probably make that even more interesting if you asked about steganography rather than crytology
[18:43] <adamgreig> a message that was "DRILL ABCDE ABCDE ABCDE DRILL" isn't a valid amateur service message though right?
[18:44] <adamgreig> I mean beyond being senseless junk, it's not a message for general reception or for another amateur
[18:44] <adamgreig> obviously if you were actually doing morse training you wouldn't key up
[18:44] <Ian_> I would love it if I could get a bit of steg into an SSTV net and demonstrate the hidden message.
[18:44] <adamgreig> but yea there are a million ways to hide messages
[18:44] <Ian_> adamgreig, it is a valid message for the purpose of CW training.
[18:44] <adamgreig> aiui messages had to be either for general reception or addressed to another operator
[18:44] <adamgreig> and that's not really either
[18:45] <adamgreig> but yea there are a million ways to hide messages anyway
[18:45] <Ian_> Obviously addressed to another licenced operator, the student
[18:45] <adamgreig> you're allowed crypto signatures to verify messages it would seem
[18:45] <adamgreig> oh hmm
[18:45] <adamgreig> I see what you mean
[18:45] <adamgreig> indeed
[18:45] <Ian_> One man's compression is another man's obfuscation
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[18:47] <Ian_> The reason that the absolute ban on cryptography was dropped was because it was relaxed at a recent WARC, where the absolute ban was dropped and is not up to National Administrations.
[18:47] <Ian_> If permitted, good in country but not between different countries.
[18:48] <mfa298> as long as you've documented how to decode the message you could be ok any way, probably even if that information is on display in a cellar with no lights or stairs
[18:49] <Ian_> Typically in an appropriate public place; whether lights or stairs or not
[18:50] <daveake> Behind a door with the sign "beware of the leopard" ?
[18:50] <Ian_> "Mary's lamb is green today"
[18:51] <craag> so who can decode the voice codec in d-star?
[18:51] <mfa298> exactly daveake
[18:51] Action: craag stands back ready for flames...
[18:51] <Ian_> Proprietry!
[18:51] <craag> ikr
[18:51] <daveake> yeah I thought that was your reference :)
[18:52] <Ian_> So we send secret messages and advertise the very expensive key device to display the true meaning, which is freely on sale.
[18:53] <adamgreig> _very_ expensive
[18:54] <Ian_> The purpose of the cryptograpy being legal, in that it isn't designed to obfuscate the message being sent, but to make loads of moolah
[18:56] <AndyEsser> note to self.. don't store power regulators and transistors that are the same package next to each other...
[18:57] <Ian_> Read the labels :) Is that indicative of a bad experience or an almost?
[18:58] <AndyEsser> Ian_: the labels are tiny ;)
[18:58] <AndyEsser> I think I've buggered my power regulator - went to replace it - still not working
[18:58] <AndyEsser> then read the label on the package and realised it was an NPN...
[19:00] <Ian_> Sympathy . . . look it up in the dictionary, it comes somewhere between Sex and Syphilis . . .
[19:00] <Ian_> :)
[19:01] <mfa298> I think there were some recent comments about crypto but that was aimed more at things like Raynet for when there might be a need to transmit sensitive information. I think that bit also said it had to be requested by the user service and the fact it was used should be logged.
[19:01] <critcalmass> Chaps, just out of curiocity... When filling a balloon, how does one measure how much gas has gone in?
[19:02] <Ian_> Usually it's just the neck lift that is produced that is of concern
[19:03] <Ian_> Metering is not simple or cheap.
[19:03] <Ian_> Fill for effect!
[19:03] <critcalmass> Excellent news!
[19:03] <AndyEsser> :(
[19:03] <Ian_> Calculate your need ahead of time and assume that you might get as much as 80% from your cylinder, but don't bank on it
[19:03] <AndyEsser> buggered my power regulator I think
[19:03] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> critcalmass, You don't, its best to measure the lift
[19:04] <critcalmass> Ah, with a strain gauge of some sort?
[19:04] <Ian_> If you have an excess of He, then party balloons are good.
[19:05] <Ian_> No bottles of water to the appropriate weight of the package and free lift required to achieve ~ 5mS climb
[19:06] <Ian_> !wiki free lift
[19:06] <SpacenearUS> 03Ian_: No results for your query
[19:06] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> !wiki neck lift
[19:06] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: No results for your query
[19:06] <AndyEsser> !wiki filling
[19:06] <mfa298> there was some discussion of this earlier which might help
[19:06] <SpacenearUS> 03AndyEsser: Wiki page 03filling_foil_balloons (guides) - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:filling_foil_balloons
[19:06] <AndyEsser> mfa298: indeed :)
[19:07] <AndyEsser> Yours truly asked basically the same questions :)
[19:07] <critcalmass> NIce one chaps, thank you :-)
[19:07] <mfa298> 1317 by my IRC client
[19:07] <AndyEsser> Lastlog:
[19:07] <AndyEsser> 13:18:32< craag> fill them up until they weigh your desired neck lift
[19:07] <AndyEsser> 13:19:06< AndyEsser> and the neck lift is what would effect the ascent rate?
[19:07] <AndyEsser> 13:19:36< craag> neck lift is payload weight + free lift
[19:07] <AndyEsser> 13:21:36< AndyEsser> so if I have a payload of 500g - the neck list will be 500g + whatever free lift I need to reach a ~5m/s ascent rate
[19:07] <AndyEsser> 13:21:48< AndyEsser> neck lift*
[19:08] <AndyEsser> Well... lack of bench PSU or regulator effectively puts an end to my tinkering for now
[19:13] <critcalmass> Thanks for explaining neck lift to me, it all makes sense now :-)
[19:15] <AndyEsser> Doing a Farnell order - recommend things I might want/need :)
[19:15] <adamgreig> flux
[19:15] <AndyEsser> capacitor?
[19:15] <AndyEsser> :P
[19:15] <adamgreig> probably in pen form
[19:15] <Vaizki> both
[19:15] <adamgreig> side cutters
[19:15] <Vaizki> flat on one side
[19:16] <Ian_> Regulator :)
[19:16] <AndyEsser> I more meant components ;)
[19:16] <AndyEsser> Tools I have
[19:16] <AndyEsser> Ian_: funny ;)
[19:16] <AndyEsser> 10 of them was the first thing I put in the cart
[19:16] <Vaizki> lab psu? :)
[19:16] <Ian_> Not so funny if you managed to overlook it in your excitement though
[19:16] <AndyEsser> Ian_: indeed ;)
[19:16] <adamgreig> I don't think it's worth getting random components until you have a project that's using them
[19:16] <adamgreig> seriously do get a flux pen
[19:16] <adamgreig> and good electronics flush side cutters
[19:17] <adamgreig> solder sucker might be useful for pth work
[19:17] <Vaizki> or solder wick
[19:17] <AndyEsser> have a solder sucker
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[19:18] <adamgreig> heatshrink
[19:18] <adamgreig> hookup wire
[19:18] <Vaizki> componenta.. ds18b20?
[19:18] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: o0o heatshrink would be good
[19:19] <Vaizki> 0.1" header stripd?
[19:20] <Vaizki> battery holder?
[19:20] <Vaizki> cable ties? :)
[19:20] <AndyEsser> I have headers, and using 9v batteries - have plenty of cable ties
[19:20] <Vaizki> 9V ... whyyy?
[19:21] <Vaizki> AA lithiums ftw
[19:21] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: convenience
[19:21] <adamgreig> lithium primary cells are such pleasing batteries
[19:21] <adamgreig> you can get lithium 9Vs I think though, in PP3
[19:21] <AndyEsser> I'm not planning on using 9v batteries in the actual payload - they were just convenient to have around
[19:21] <Vaizki> 9V batteries have crap capacity
[19:21] <Vaizki> ok
[19:21] <AndyEsser> easy to combine and don't roll around and therefore need a holder :)
[19:22] <Vaizki> lithiums also dont die at -30
[19:22] <mfa298> bag of capacitors suitable for use as decoupling capacitors.
[19:23] <AndyEsser> mfa298: got that as well :)
[19:24] <adamgreig> s/bag/reel
[19:24] <AndyEsser> order placed
[19:24] <Vaizki> mosfets .. always good to have..
[19:24] <AndyEsser> eeww
[19:24] <AndyEsser> I have my transistors and relays ;)
[19:24] <AndyEsser> hehe
[19:24] <Vaizki> you have an itchy order finger
[19:24] <AndyEsser> free delivery - doesn't really matter if I have to do 20 orders ;)
[19:24] <adamgreig> min order is £20?
[19:24] <AndyEsser> nope
[19:25] <Vaizki> no free delivery here... digikey does free for 65 euros
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[19:25] <mfa298> once you read a bit about mosfets you'll burn your transistors and relays (unless you really need the seperation)
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[19:25] <AndyEsser> mfa298: nah I know
[19:25] <AndyEsser> I just hadn't remembered about mosfets when I Was looking at building a little rover
[19:25] <AndyEsser> so have a bunch of transistors and relays
[19:30] <Lunar_Lander> mosfets rock!
[19:30] <Lunar_Lander> hi andy :)
[19:30] <AndyEsser> hey Lunar_Lander
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[19:31] <Lunar_Lander> today my prof saw the stacked boards for the first time, he said that it looks good
[19:31] <AndyEsser> cool :)
[19:31] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[19:32] <Lunar_Lander> I want to try to deadbug a quarz onto the CPU board
[19:32] <Lunar_Lander> that might just work
[19:32] <Lunar_Lander> damn chirality of the footprint :D
[19:38] <eroomde> if anyone in the uk is thinking about a tool cabinet, machine mart are doing vat-free on their toolchests until end of jan
[19:38] <eroomde> i am probably going to take it up on the offer
[19:38] <Ian_> I had to look up that word Lunar_Lander . . . so much for native speakers eh?
[19:39] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[19:55] <Lunar_Lander> earlier I had an idea
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander> quite trivial though, calculating the velocity of the HAB onboard
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> might be a handy feature
[19:58] <eroomde> ...
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander> of course that is for our new team member so he gets the hang of the system
[19:59] <RealBorg> dead reckoning or gps ground speed + vertical speed?
[20:00] <RealBorg> i found it useful to use ecef coordinates for this
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> sounds interesting
[20:04] <Lunar_Lander> it is not that easy to introduce new people with little electronics and software experience I found out
[20:05] <eroomde> i think we rather found that out with you too Lunar_Lander :p
[20:05] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:05] <eroomde> but! you launched and are soon to launch again, so it's all good
[20:05] <Lunar_Lander> :) thanks
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[20:20] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/5QD9K5R
[20:20] <AndyEsser> Anyone know what that might be?
[20:28] <eroomde> somthing aviationy i guess
[20:28] <eroomde> most airband stuff lives around there
[20:30] <AndyEsser> Yea
[20:30] <AndyEsser> I imagine it's something Hawarden airfield
[20:30] <AndyEsser> I know they have something around ~130Mhz
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[20:35] <mfa298> the spacing looks very regular, so possibly also just some local interference / harmonics
[20:38] <fsphil> try disconnecting some nearby ethernet cables
[20:38] <AndyEsser> yea.... no
[20:38] <AndyEsser> :P
[20:38] <fsphil> * ping timeout
[20:38] <AndyEsser> !flights
[20:38] <SpacenearUS> 03AndyEsser: There are no flights currently :(
[20:38] <fsphil> I've found network cables do a good job of covering 100-200mhz with carriers like that
[20:39] <AndyEsser> I was just scanning the waves
[20:39] <AndyEsser> saw an interesting pattern :)
[20:39] <AndyEsser> still can't pick up anything from the airfield :(
[20:39] <fsphil> bumped into DAB yet?
[20:40] <AndyEsser> nope
[20:40] <Vaizki> or TETRA
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[21:14] Action: AndyEsser spots a spurious craag in the UKHAS 2015 video
[21:19] <mfa298> no doubt a spurious craag will appear here a bit later (I suspect he's at the pub currently)
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:20] <AndyEsser> ha
[21:20] <AndyEsser> wish I Was at the pub
[21:20] Action: AndyEsser glares at buggered voltage regulator
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[21:30] <Lunar_Lander> what happened with it?
[21:31] <AndyEsser> I erm...
[21:31] <AndyEsser> might've gotten my red wire and black wire confused
[21:31] <AndyEsser> :)
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[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> oh
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[21:38] <Vaizki> AndyEsser must be a cyclist..
[21:43] <AndyEsser> ?
[21:44] <Vaizki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yiu1uLgwF1E
[21:44] <Vaizki> just this.. :)
[21:44] <AndyEsser> hahahahaha
[21:44] <AndyEsser> love it
[21:46] <Vaizki> so which reg did you bugger?
[21:46] <AndyEsser> my 3v3 one
[21:48] <Vaizki> LD1117?
[21:48] <Vaizki> or something nicer.. :)
[21:48] <AndyEsser> TS2950CT
[21:48] <AndyEsser> farnell order shipped :)
[21:49] <Vaizki> 150mA reg? hmm.. I guess it's enough for everything
[21:50] <AndyEsser> got 10x 500mA ones coming tomorrow
[21:53] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/gallery/uQAk9h3
[21:56] <Vaizki> electrical hydroengineering dept
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[22:22] <critcalmass> Don't have a massive budget atm but thinking about ordering one of these RTL-SDR DONGLES. Any thoughts? http://www.rtl-sdr.com/buy-rtl-sdr-dvb-t-dongles/
[22:23] <chris_99> i got one from cosycave which the shipping was pretty fast from, then got some different converters
[22:23] <critcalmass> Just looking to start getting used to receiving signals and finding the best software to use.
[22:24] <SA6BSS-Mike> taht rtl sdr blog one is qute good, main feture are the 1ppm oscil and readely mounted sma
[22:24] <critcalmass> Excellent. Have you used it for live tracking of your own payload before or would it not be up to the job?
[22:24] <critcalmass> Oh, ok.
[22:26] <SA6BSS-Mike> its as good as a dedicated ham radio, compared minte to my ft817 and ts2000
[22:27] <SA6BSS-Mike> all in the antenna and hight and if long cable run a lna
[22:28] <AndyEsser> critcalmass: that's the exact dongle I've got
[22:29] <Vaizki> and here's the rest of andy's stuff.. http://i.imgur.com/eOBafSo.gif
[22:29] <Vaizki> (tomorrow that is)
[22:30] <AndyEsser> haha
[22:31] <AndyEsser> that's basically how I imagine my PCB's will arrive and all the components when I order them
[22:33] <Lunar_Lander> :D
[22:36] <SA6BSS-Mike> I just bought another one to my rtl/sdr collection, nice update with an aluminum case :)
[22:37] <critcalmass> Oh good, I found a good bit of kit. I'll get one on order. Need to think about antenna and ant run now.
[22:39] <AndyEsser> critcalmass: I had mine running for the last 24 hours with the provided aerial receiving telemetry from my prototype (admittedly only over about 1.5m) and it worked fine
[22:39] <AndyEsser> haven't used it for a chase though
[22:39] <AndyEsser> but for £20 or whatever, can't really complain
[22:41] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: watching your SDR talk now :)
[22:42] <Vaizki> yea complaining comes with £25 mininum.. and I'm turning it, it's 00:40 again. happy tinkering&
[22:43] <Vaizki> hope you get your scope for the weekend ;)
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[22:45] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: it arrives tomorrow :)
[22:45] <AndyEsser> but I'm away this weekend anyway
[22:46] <critcalmass> I'm not in a position to be able to spend £500 on a ham radio for chase, so I'm hoping a £20 dongle, a HABamp and a selection of well designed antenna will do the trick.
[22:48] <AndyEsser> critcalmass: likewise
[22:49] <critcalmass> Are you new to this AndyEsser?
[22:50] <bertrik> critcalmass: exactly what we have at the hackerspace, works OK for HAB tracking
[22:50] <AndyEsser> critcalmass: I am :)
[22:50] <AndyEsser> joined in channel Decemberish - I think
[22:53] <fsphil> 7th december, 19:27:11 :)
[22:53] <fsphil> *UTC
[22:54] <AndyEsser> heh
[22:54] <AndyEsser> stalker ;)
[22:55] <fsphil> bored. I have to tidy out a room for guests and I'm doing everything except
[22:56] <fsphil> I've found so many scart cables. why did I collect so many
[22:56] <AndyEsser> ha
[22:57] <AndyEsser> I needed a scart cable yesterday
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[22:59] <mbales_> my very first production run of boards starts shipping tomorrow, woo
[22:59] <fsphil> I'll probably dump all but a few of these
[22:59] <fsphil> nice!
[23:00] <AndyEsser> mbales_: woo
[23:00] <AndyEsser> I'm looking forward to seeing my first boards arrive
[23:00] <fsphil> to customers or from pcb house?
[23:01] <AndyEsser> sorry, pcb house
[23:02] <mbales_> whod you get your boards through?
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[23:02] <AndyEsser> I was recommended Dirty PCB
[23:02] Nick change: Upui -> Upu
[23:03] <AndyEsser> (for clarity - I haven't ordered yet - haven't even designed the board yet)
[23:09] <AndyEsser> Anyway, night all!
[23:09] <AndyEsser> Tomorrow is Scope Day!
[23:09] <AndyEsser> (and new regulators... but ssh)
[23:11] <fsphil> we won't tell anyone
[23:19] <mfa298> critcalmass: for sdr there are potentially better ones that are still cheaper than a £500 dedicated radio one option being the airspy. That said Ive not used the airspy or a cheap dongle with R820T2 chipset. My older E4000 and R820T based rtlsdr's are noticeably worse than the better sdrs (FCD Pro+ in my case) and the dedicated radios (FT817 and TS2000)
[23:19] <mfa298> however as others have said having a relatively cheap rtlsdr in the box is always useful
[23:20] <mfa298> cheap enough that one stays in my bag and if it gets knocked about too much to get broken/lost its no loss.
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[23:30] <critcalmass> Cheers mfa298 :-)
[23:31] <critcalmass> AndyEsser: I've used PCB Train for boards for work projects before. They were fast and pretty cheap.
[23:32] <mbales_> the production boards I got were through macrofab, nice guys and the boards came out well.
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[23:43] <mikestir> mfa298: critcalmass: the only real issue I had even with E4000 and R820T based sticks compared with a real radio was the lack of dynamic range. The FCD would certainly be better in that respect. In the most part they were perfectly usable as long as no one was on the local 70cm repeater
[23:46] <critcalmass> There are repeaters?
[23:48] <mikestir> amateur radio repeater
[23:48] <mikestir> the 434 MHz ISM band overlaps the 70cm amateur band
[23:50] <critcalmass> I'm not clued up with amateur radio
[23:53] <critcalmass> Guess I need to fix that
[23:54] <mikestir> getting a foundation license is pretty trivial
[23:56] <critcalmass> ok, will look into it.
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[23:57] <critcalmass> Not intending on transmitting with a license, so it would simply be for the knowledge side of things.
[23:59] <Lunar_Lander> good night
[23:59] <mikestir> gn
[23:59] <critcalmass> night
[23:59] <mikestir> critcalmass: it's a pity about the restrictions on operating airborne in the uk, otherwise it would be far more useful from a hab perspective
[00:00] --- Fri Jan 15 2016