highaltitude.log.20160112

[00:17] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[00:21] <critcalmass> Hi all, just been reading up on tracking using an SDR, but the UKHAS WiKi page states that this method isn't good enough for real time tracking of an actual flight. What kind of setup will I need to track my payload when I send it up?
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[00:29] <mfa298> critcalmass: depends a bit on which sdr you use.
[00:30] <mfa298> the cheap rtlsdr can struggle, but people have used them with the addition of the habamp
[00:31] <mfa298> things like the fcd pro+ and airspy are much better but obviously cost more
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[00:48] <critcalmass> Cheers mfa298:
[00:49] <critcalmass> I am trying to keep costs down a little so not too interested in spending a fortune on receiving gear
[00:50] <critcalmass> Do people tend to use a directional antenna?
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[01:05] <PsionicOz> critcalmass: look at crossed dipoles if you intend to track the balloon from underneath, otherwise 1/4wave or vertical antenna with gain will suffice
[01:06] <PsionicOz> habamp is always a good idea with SDR
[01:11] <mfa298> 1/4 magmount on the car may well be enough
[01:12] <mfa298> yagi (directional antenna) may be useful f you need to direction find or if the signal is weak - but youll need to be stopped to use it
[01:12] <critcalmass> Gotcha
[01:13] <critcalmass> I'm a bit new to this. Used to play silly games with CBs and directional antennas as a kid but that's about it.
[01:15] <critcalmass> With the usb receivers, like the airspy, I'm assuming received rf is sent directly to decoding software without the need for an audio cable into a sound card?
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[01:19] <mfa298> you may need some sort of audio connection, but there are some apps around that can do it virtually
[01:19] <critcalmass> Thanks
[01:19] <mfa298> vbplug I think is the free one of virtual audio cable which is paid for
[01:19] <mfa298> s/of/or/
[01:20] <Ian_> BrainDamage Check out bottom of page 19, top of page 20 third column 'Amateur Radio Satellite Service' http://licensing.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/spectrum/amateur-radio/guidance-for-licensees/nov/licence.pdf
[01:22] <Ian_> So, satellites (amateur radio) operate under amateur radio licence regulations and the frequencies used for each bird are 'coordinated by IARU via National AMSAT organisations - I believe'
[01:23] <Ian_> Note that satellites are not 'airborne'
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[06:33] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-58 after 037 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-58
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[07:48] <sv3ora> good morning
[08:05] <fsphil> morn!
[08:06] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03hkLo1 after 0313 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=hkLo1
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[08:52] <AndyEsser> morning peepsicles
[08:59] <Vaizki> Morning from Hoth
[08:59] <sv3ora> morning
[09:00] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: bit nippy outside is it?
[09:00] <AndyEsser> did you get that 50cm of snow?
[09:00] <AndyEsser> hey sv3ora
[09:00] <sv3ora> Hello from Greece
[09:00] <AndyEsser> sv3ora: whereabouts in Greece?
[09:00] <sv3ora> sunny day here today
[09:00] <sv3ora> Near Patra City, Pelloponeese
[09:02] <Vaizki> no just 30cm or so
[09:02] <Vaizki> So far. Still snowing full steam.
[09:02] <Vaizki> http://www.kelikamerat.info/kelikamerat/Uusimaa/Järvenpää/tie-4/vt4_Järvenpää
[09:03] <Vaizki> oops wrong one
[09:03] <sv3ora> Nice flat UK roads.....
[09:03] <Vaizki> Finland
[09:03] <AndyEsser> sv3ora: ah cool
[09:03] <AndyEsser> sv3ora: my dad lives in Crete
[09:03] <fsphil> rain here. just lots and lots of rain
[09:03] <sv3ora> Crete is the only place I have never been. I have to sometime
[09:03] <AndyEsser> fsphil: it's not raining here :)
[09:04] <Vaizki> I bought a Li-Ion snow blower :D
[09:04] <AndyEsser> for a change
[09:04] <AndyEsser> ha
[09:04] <sv3ora> I mean the only place in Greece
[09:04] <AndyEsser> sv3ora: yea, I guessed :P
[09:04] <AndyEsser> I need to go back sometime, didn't go out and visit him at all last year
[09:04] <sv3ora> Is he Greek? Or just lives there?
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[09:05] <sv3ora> You do not need to answer if you do not like :)
[09:05] <AndyEsser> sv3ora: Nah, he's British
[09:05] <AndyEsser> but retired out there because it's close enough for the flights not to be tedious
[09:05] <AndyEsser> but the weather is better
[09:05] <AndyEsser> (all he does is complain about the weather...)
[09:06] <sv3ora> Mine does so. When he goes fishing!
[09:06] <R6mco> [07:33] <SpacenearUS> New position from PS-58 after 7 hours silence - http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-58 <-- not true
[09:06] <AndyEsser> haha
[09:07] <AndyEsser> sv3ora: I do enjoy when I go out there
[09:07] <R6mco> PS-58 is continuously heard through the last 10 hours (or so) with 10 min intervals
[09:07] <AndyEsser> quite like the taverna culture they have going on there
[09:08] <sv3ora> People in Crete are passionate about food!
[09:09] <sv3ora> They have many pure items related to food (my English are not too good)
[09:09] <AndyEsser> There is very good food in Crete :)
[09:10] <sv3ora> I am hungry now... :P
[09:10] <AndyEsser> haha
[09:10] <AndyEsser> me to
[09:13] <SM0ULC-Reb> Vaizki: the snow came mostly as rain here.. but more snow today and mayby finishing of the week below -20C.. :)
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[09:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 032E0EBR-4 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=2E0EBR-4
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[09:33] <mfa298> R6mco: the bot will be going by what information it sees which may only be aprs data and/or manually added data strings, so if it doesnt get those it won't know where the balloon is.
[09:35] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 032E0EBR-10 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=2E0EBR-10
[09:40] <mfa298> hmmm, 2E0EBR appears to be a balloon on the Italy/Germany border.
[09:42] <mfa298> actually only 3,500m I wonder how high the ground is there.
[09:42] <daveake> hmmm same payload ID flew here ... https://twitter.com/aprsballoons/status/652901170810368001
[09:45] <mfa298> OSM suggests it's 2000-2500m ground level so could be a car and bad gps lock
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[10:13] <SM0ULC-Reb> mfa298: the path seems to indicate balloons
[10:15] <SA6BSS-Mike> helicopters?
[10:15] <SM0ULC-Reb> could be
[10:15] <SM0ULC-Reb> but a bit slow then
[10:16] <SA6BSS-Mike> jupå, just about 80km/h
[10:20] <SM0ULC-Reb> commented "hot air"
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[10:40] <Flutterbat> mfa298: the italy/german border? :P
[10:40] <sv3ora> Have you seen this? http://sciencetoymaker.org/dragnflyHelicopter/index.html
[10:41] <Flutterbat> i think its called switzerland/ austria
[10:41] <sv3ora> nice toy :)
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[10:46] <AndyEsser> o0o0
[10:46] <AndyEsser> my SDR Dongle has arrived :)
[10:48] <AndyEsser> now to see if I can pick up the nearby airport :)
[10:49] <chris_99> which one did you get?
[10:49] <AndyEsser> the cheapo one from RTL SDR or whatever it was called
[10:49] <AndyEsser> just to get me going until Airspy's are back in stock
[10:50] <chris_99> aha
[10:54] <AndyEsser> but it should at least mean I can hopefully get my NTX2b working tonight, and possibly get something into dl-fldigi
[10:57] <SA6BSS-Mike> you will be supprised by how little if any difference between a rtl and a airspy
[10:57] <AndyEsser> o that's so cool :)
[10:57] <AndyEsser> tuned straight into a local FM station
[10:58] <Vaizki> hmm I found a significant difference for weaksignals
[10:58] <AndyEsser> http://www.chesterairport.co.uk/
[10:58] <AndyEsser> time to tune into these guys
[10:58] <SA6BSS-Mike> its all in the antenna and lna.
[10:58] <Vaizki> You will find local FM stations all over the frequency range
[10:59] <Vaizki> I have a decent antenna but no LNA
[10:59] <kokey> yeah I bought a Yupiteru scanner like a month before the rtl-sdr news broke
[10:59] <kokey> don't have the scanner any more, but still one of the rtl sticks I bought, comes in handy from time to time
[10:59] <mfa298> SM0ULC-Reb: part of the point was that that 2E0 is a UK intermediate license which doesn't normally allow CEPT operation.
[10:59] <kokey> like when I bought a cheap remote control car and wasn't sure what was wrong with it
[11:00] <mfa298> Flutterbat: ah sorry, Austria, the names looked Germanic so I assumed Germany
[11:00] <craag> mfa298: oops :P
[11:00] <craag> (re: 2E0 cept)
[11:01] <daveake> yup
[11:01] <daveake> also airborne uk aprs it seems
[11:02] <Vaizki> I want a downconverter for airspy to catch PS-balloons
[11:02] <Vaizki> and some other stuff :)
[11:02] <R6mco> mfa298: understood, then the bot should include WSPR data too ;-)
[11:03] <mfa298> and as daveake pointed out earlier looks like they did airborne APRS in the UK
[11:03] <Vaizki> I don't think WSPR web is happy with bots scraping?
[11:03] <daveake> send in the hams
[11:04] <R6mco> http://qrz.com/db/2e0ebr ?
[11:05] <Flutterbat> mfa298: :o its hitlers native country
[11:05] <SA6BSS-Mike> Vaizki: get a spyverter, the combo of airspy and the spyverter is nice
[11:06] <R6mco> imho APRS is obsolete, it's better to do JT9 and/or WSPR for telemetry
[11:07] <fsphil> wspr is too slow for telemetry
[11:07] <Vaizki> eh
[11:07] <fsphil> it's not really built for it
[11:07] <Vaizki> Some people want to recover balloons
[11:07] <R6mco> JT9 works well
[11:07] <Vaizki> So they want position down to meters, every 10secs
[11:07] <fsphil> needs friendlier software
[11:08] <mfa298> rtty works very nicely for most flights
[11:08] <R6mco> JT9 can do it in 1 minute slots
[11:08] <Vaizki> Far too slow
[11:08] <daveake> and if you're somewhere like the USA wirh a large APRS network, it's an obvious solution
[11:08] <daveake> and yes 1 minute is too slow
[11:09] <R6mco> ok, understood ;-)
[11:09] <fsphil> some aprs folk get annoyed at even 1 minute beacons :)
[11:09] <daveake> yup
[11:09] <AndyEsser> hmm, no sign of anything from the airport - I don't think it's that busy - but at least I know the dongle works :)
[11:09] <mfa298> on some flights I think we've had 1s updates via rtty
[11:09] <AndyEsser> can play with it tonight to get my RTTY stuff working
[11:09] <fsphil> ah you have radio
[11:10] <daveake> no stopping you now :)
[11:10] <AndyEsser> well, until my scope arrives I can't really get accurate timing going
[11:10] <Vaizki> no antennas and keep them at least 1m apart
[11:10] <mfa298> AndyEsser: if the airport has an information channel that may be going more regularly, although the little antenna it comes with might not be ideal
[11:10] <AndyEsser> but should be able to get the 328 to get the GPS data over I2C and send that back over RTTY to my PC - which would be cool
[11:10] <AndyEsser> just not optimal programming/power usage
[11:10] <Vaizki> Andy, you should see lots of stuff on 434.900 and around
[11:11] <R6mco> do I understand correctly there are two 2E0EBR balloons ?
[11:11] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: just had a quick looksie now
[11:11] <AndyEsser> can't find anything atm :(
[11:11] <Vaizki> Moar gain
[11:11] <Vaizki> fm broadcast is really strong
[11:12] <fsphil> most local aircraft traffic seems to be on 123.775
[11:12] <Vaizki> Just crank it up
[11:12] <mfa298> sometimes the useful starting point is fm broadcast, one of the few things Radio1 is good for.
[11:12] <daveake> only
[11:12] <AndyEsser> mfa298: yea, that's why I tuned to an FM station just to check it was all working :)
[11:12] <AndyEsser> fsphil: was going by this: http://www.chesterairport.co.uk/airfield/airfield-information
[11:12] <fsphil> radio 4 is better, the constant carrier during the silent parts is useful for adjusting frequency correction :)
[11:13] <AndyEsser> wish R4 would just be silent all the time
[11:13] <AndyEsser> :P
[11:13] <fsphil> ah you're using the little stick they provide with the dongle?
[11:14] <AndyEsser> Yes, rather than the big stick
[11:14] <fsphil> they're a bit pants
[11:14] <AndyEsser> I'm sure :)
[11:14] <AndyEsser> again this was just for testing purposes
[11:14] <AndyEsser> picking up a very slight peak at 434.739
[11:14] <fsphil> yeah. at least you've proved it works
[11:14] <AndyEsser> 730*
[11:15] <Vaizki> you should see bursts from ISM equipment
[11:15] <fsphil> you should hear pagers in the 150 mhz-ish region
[11:15] <Vaizki> More gain :)
[11:16] <fsphil> 138mhz, 153mhz and 454 mhz for pages
[11:16] <fsphil> there is software to decode them too
[11:16] <fsphil> but it's all medical emergencies and server errors
[11:16] <fsphil> quite depressing
[11:16] <AndyEsser> haha
[11:17] <AndyEsser> o0o I have wifi around here
[11:17] <AndyEsser> lets see if I can pick that up
[11:17] <fsphil> that *might* work
[11:17] <fsphil> my rtlsdr's can't seem to do 2.4ghz
[11:18] <fsphil> but they're an older model
[11:18] <AndyEsser> I can see something showing around the ~2.4 region
[11:19] <fsphil> you only have a 2mhz view, so the 20mhz wifi signals will just appear as bursts of noise
[11:19] <mfa298> other fun one is to try ads-b, I've had dump1090 running on a Pi with rtlsdr and showing live planes on a local map before.
[11:19] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/BbqMZ6Q
[11:20] <fsphil> that's probably GSM
[11:21] <Vaizki> Umm no gsm tops at 1800M here
[11:21] <fsphil> yeah just checked, not that
[11:22] <fsphil> just under 200khz wide. odd. maybe cordless phones
[11:27] <fsphil> you need a directional antenna AndyEsser, hunt down the source :) it can't be far from you
[11:30] <AndyEsser> That blib?
[11:30] <AndyEsser> blip*
[11:30] <AndyEsser> imagine it's the WiFi repeater about 5 metres away
[11:31] <fsphil> seems too narrow
[11:31] <AndyEsser> hmm
[11:31] <SA6BSS-Mike> go to 433.9 u will se alot oft ism telemetry from weather stations etc
[11:31] <AndyEsser> SA6BSS-Mike: absolutely nada :)
[11:32] <fsphil> lucky you
[11:32] <fsphil> it's normally a minefield of RF crap
[11:32] <AndyEsser> actually that's a lie :)
[11:32] <SA6BSS-Mike> and you can tune to 1090 if you get the dongle antenna outside you should see a steady stream aof datablips fron adsb plane tx
[11:32] <AndyEsser> found something
[11:32] <AndyEsser> but it's periodic
[11:32] <SA6BSS-Mike> allways peidodic
[11:32] <fsphil> if you tune to 433.9 and select AM mode, where I am it sounds like a classic 8-bit computer game
[11:33] <gonzo__> if you are anywhere near urban, 433.9 will be busy. If not you have issues
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[11:34] <Vaizki> For example wireless thermometers will show up as blips every minute or so
[11:34] <fsphil> my neighbours heating system is on 433mhz
[11:34] <fsphil> I'm not evil enough to try a replay attack
[11:34] <SA6BSS-Mike> https://www.dropbox.com/s/oxbybw9xdxfpsv3/2016-01-12%2012_34_23-HDSDR%20%5Bdefault%5D%20%20version%202.70.jpg?dl=0
[11:35] <fsphil> I'm not actually sure what I hear is the heating system being commanded to turn on, it's probably a wireless temperature sensor in the house
[11:35] <Vaizki> https://www.dropbox.com/s/4r2sxgcqf7uxopx/433Mhz%20waterfall%20madness.png?dl=0
[11:35] <AndyEsser> gonzo__: I'm in a town/city - but the area around me itself is fairly sparsely populated
[11:35] <Vaizki> I get weird stuff on 433 now and then
[11:36] <fsphil> there should be sondes in the air at the moment in the 402-406mhz area
[11:36] <fsphil> but you might struggle with that antenna
[11:36] <AndyEsser> trying to multi-task - on a conference call at the same time ;)
[11:36] <AndyEsser> fsphil: I do have the larger antenna that was sent as well
[11:36] <eroomde> put it on mute and get on with it
[11:36] <eroomde> like a proper engineer on conf call
[11:36] <AndyEsser> hehe
[11:37] <AndyEsser> aww, you think I'm a proper engineer
[11:37] <gonzo__> I get swquard, buuuurrrrp, bep beo bep. About as quick as you can say that
[11:37] <gonzo__> I can even gewt typo's in random nboises!
[11:38] <SA6BSS-Mike> Vaizki: ha, I have that to a the moment
[11:38] <fsphil> the burp's are a bit weird. I've heard those too
[11:38] <SA6BSS-Mike> dont know what it is
[11:38] <fsphil> russians
[11:38] <SA6BSS-Mike> yeah sure :)
[11:39] <AndyEsser> number stations
[11:39] <Vaizki> I thought it might be 3DR radios
[11:39] <fsphil> not heard one of them in a while
[11:39] <eroomde> no i said 'like a proper engineer'
[11:39] <fsphil> a guy setup a numbers station at the last conference I was at
[11:39] <fsphil> don't think anyone cracked it
[11:40] <eroomde> i have aviators like a ww2 usaf fighter pilot
[11:40] <eroomde> see?
[11:40] Action: AndyEsser tries to imagine eroomde wearing Aviators
[11:43] <AndyEsser> best practice when switching antenna... I'm guessing shut it down?
[11:43] <fsphil> wouldn't bother for a receiver
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[11:45] <AndyEsser> damn thing can't stand up on it's own with the larger aentenna
[11:45] <fsphil> duct tape
[11:45] <Vaizki> best practise for me is a bnc adapter..
[11:45] <eroomde> 'best practice' is to not use that horrible little phrase
[11:45] <Vaizki> SMA is not for frequent swapping
[11:46] <eroomde> beloved of IT consultants who think mantra is a substitute for understanding what one is doing
[11:46] <AndyEsser> lol
[11:46] <fsphil> SMA has a horrible habit of unscrewing itself
[11:47] <UpuWork> I have these amazing quick release SMA's I use for testing
[11:47] <UpuWork> best investment I've made in ages
[11:47] <eroomde> wat
[11:48] <UpuWork> hang on let me find them
[11:48] <eroomde> i've got a bucket on standby
[11:48] <eroomde> unless this turns out to be a joke
[11:49] <eroomde> some sort of push-pull thing that is designed to fit onto an sma?
[11:49] <Vaizki> casual sex SMA?
[11:49] <UpuWork> bear with me trying to find them
[11:50] <UpuWork> http://www.digikey.co.uk/Web%20Export/Supplier%20Content/Emerson_24/PDF/Emerson_SMAQuickConnectors.pdf?redirected=1
[11:50] <UpuWork> they just sort of click on satisflyingly
[11:50] <eroomde> so you pull the sheath back and the threaded collety bit opens up?
[11:50] <UpuWork> yup
[11:51] <Vaizki> Whoa
[11:51] <UpuWork> save my fingers and quite a bit of time
[11:51] <fsphil> nice find
[11:51] <UpuWork> they are about £60 each I think
[11:51] <Vaizki> the adapters?
[11:52] <UpuWork> yeah
[11:52] <UpuWork> http://uk.farnell.com/emerson-connectivity-johnson/142-1901-821/rf-coaxial-adapter-sma-jack-sma/dp/8928320?ost=142-1901-821&selectedCategoryId=&categoryName=All+Categories&categoryNameResp=All+Categories
[11:52] <UpuWork> there you go
[11:52] <UpuWork> worth every penny
[11:55] <AndyEsser> https://t.co/Yme488jpy1
[11:56] <UpuWork> either everyones gone away to order them or you're all very shock on how much they cost
[11:56] <UpuWork> that base is .. poor :) Is it magnetic ?
[11:56] <eroomde> it costs a lot less than an sma torque wrench
[11:57] <UpuWork> aye, they make testing the filters much easier
[11:57] <UpuWork> also I've been going through a GPS antenna every 3-4 months
[11:57] <UpuWork> The plugs wear out pretty quickly
[11:57] <habby> Hi all! Is Barc11-1 still going up today?
[11:57] <eroomde> SMA is not rated for that many cycles
[11:58] <UpuWork> I could put a new plug on
[11:58] <UpuWork> possibly habby
[11:58] <eroomde> and cheap ones especially don't last long at all
[11:58] <UpuWork> they did say it was marginal
[11:58] <AndyEsser> UpuWork: nope - it's just some squidgy mateial, not even adhesive
[11:58] <UpuWork> no I'd say < 200 cycles
[11:58] <UpuWork> right afk
[11:58] <habby> Thanks UpuWork, I'll keep hitting F5.... ;)
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[12:36] <SM0ULC-Reb> mfa298: aah, ok
[12:36] <SM0ULC-Reb> they seem to land know
[12:43] <Vaizki> so my solution is to simply put BNC on all the UHF and lower stuff for testing...
[12:44] BARC (b2602609@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.96.38.9) joined #highaltitude.
[12:44] <Vaizki> is that quickie sma better than a bnc really?
[12:44] <fsphil> for most frequencies probably not
[12:45] <craag> except when you're testing products with an sma socket on...
[12:45] <Vaizki> bnc is also really prevalent on radios,mtest equipment etc so handy...
[12:46] <Vaizki> craag, yes but for example I put a sma-bnc adapter on my airspy when I got it, have never removed it
[12:46] <craag> same with my fcdpp ;)
[12:47] <fsphil> do the sockets wear out?
[12:47] <craag> the central receptacle might become loose, especially with dodgy plugs
[12:48] <craag> not seen it myself though
[12:48] <fsphil> hmm. might make a little pigtail for the sdrs
[12:48] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BARC - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BARC
[12:48] <Vaizki> fcdpp has mcx or something?
[12:49] <fsphil> sma
[12:49] <Vaizki> never seen one
[12:49] <Vaizki> ok
[12:49] <fsphil> the rtlsdr is the only sdr I have that isn't sma
[12:49] <fsphil> it's got that horrible uhf thing
[12:49] <Vaizki> I have SDRplay which is F... :(
[12:49] <fsphil> even that's better
[12:50] <Vaizki> fsphil, belling lee?
[12:50] <fsphil> Vaizki: yeah
[12:50] <fsphil> oh sdrplay has F? one more odd thing about it to add to the list
[12:50] <Vaizki> new rev has sma
[12:50] <Vaizki> I have one of the first ones
[12:51] <fsphil> ah
[12:51] <Vaizki> not very fond of the whole thing tbh
[12:51] <fsphil> it does seem to be a bit of a mess
[12:51] <Vaizki> airspy wins every time if it covers the band
[12:51] <fsphil> I've been pretty happy with the airspy and hackrf
[12:52] <fsphil> would like more bits for the hackrf. 8-bit isn't great
[12:53] <Vaizki> sdrplay is well... I am getting a spyverter :)
[12:53] <fsphil> sdrplay site claims 12-bit
[12:53] <Vaizki> maybe I am not ham enough to tame the sdrplay
[12:54] <gonzo_nb> you mean, you are not a moany oldman?
[12:54] <Vaizki> could be
[12:55] <Vaizki> Im trying dammit
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[12:55] <gonzo_nb> just stop washing and complain a lot. You'll get there
[12:56] <Vaizki> I dont really care about choosing a IF for example
[12:57] <Vaizki> I just want it to tune and give a good SNR thanks :)
[12:58] <fsphil> the sdrplay linux drivers seem to be binary-only
[12:59] <fsphil> the file they have on the website just contains a few .so files
[12:59] <Vaizki> http://swling.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/EXT-IO.jpg
[12:59] <AndyEsser> fsphil: found something at 434.730 - but it's barely registering as a peak
[13:00] <Vaizki> using that required me to read thr manual 4 times
[13:00] <Vaizki> I am slow :(
[13:00] <AndyEsser> fsphil: Do you have an amateur radio license?
[13:01] <fsphil> I do, but keep it quiet :)
[13:01] <Vaizki> isnt that like asking if you have a std...
[13:01] <Vaizki> see
[13:01] <AndyEsser> lol
[13:02] <AndyEsser> is it like asking a woman her age, etc
[13:02] <fsphil> I have a contagious SDR
[13:02] <AndyEsser> frowned upon?
[13:03] <fsphil> I've the callsign MI0VIM
[13:03] <AndyEsser> are you at home, and have a directional antenna? :P
[13:03] <AndyEsser> hehe
[13:04] <fsphil> hah, no and yes :)
[13:04] <fsphil> I'm too far from you for VHF or UHF
[13:04] <AndyEsser> aww
[13:04] <AndyEsser> only a few hundred km :)
[13:04] <Vaizki> you have SDR? poor thing... my dad got Fuengirola 7 years ago and he's still caught up in it :(
[13:05] <fsphil> if conditions where right it would work fine
[13:05] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> !dial BARC11-1
[13:05] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: Can't find a flight doc matching your query
[13:05] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> !flights
[13:05] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: Current flights: 03barc11-1 10(8614)
[13:05] <AndyEsser> heh
[13:05] <AndyEsser> case sensitive?
[13:05] <Vaizki> yes
[13:05] <AndyEsser> !dial barc11-1
[13:05] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> !dial barc11-1
[13:05] <SpacenearUS> 03AndyEsser: Can't find a flight doc matching your query
[13:05] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: Can't find a flight doc matching your query
[13:05] <Vaizki> oops
[13:05] <fsphil> VHF can cover really good distances, but only now and then
[13:05] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> !flight barc11
[13:05] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: Can't find a flight doc matching your query
[13:06] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> !flight barc11-1
[13:06] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: Can't find a flight doc matching your query
[13:06] <fsphil> dial won't work unless someone's uploaded telemetry
[13:06] <craag> !payloads barc11-1
[13:06] <SpacenearUS> 03craag: Can't find a flight doc matching your query
[13:06] <AndyEsser> fsphil: fine :( I'll just wait until I'm home and get my NTX2b to chirrup
[13:06] <AndyEsser> :)
[13:06] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> !dial 8614
[13:06] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: Latest dials for 03BARC 10(8614): 03434.4498 MHz
[13:06] <fsphil> !dial barc
[13:06] <SpacenearUS> 03fsphil: Latest dials for 03BARC 10(8614): 03434.4498 MHz
[13:06] <AndyEsser> ha
[13:06] <fsphil> !dial home
[13:06] <SpacenearUS> 03fsphil: Can't find a flight doc matching your query
[13:06] <fsphil> aww
[13:07] <AndyEsser> Yea... so not going to be able to pick that up
[13:07] <fsphil> we need daniel jackson
[13:07] <AndyEsser> hehe
[13:07] <AndyEsser> fsphil: a fellow SG fan?
[13:07] <fsphil> indeed. 5 years since it ended :(
[13:07] <AndyEsser> did you get into Atlantis and Universe?
[13:07] <fsphil> yeah
[13:08] <fsphil> I'm not looking forward to the reboot
[13:09] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Is it me, but why can't people get the frequency right ?
[13:11] <UpuWork> 434.450
[13:11] <UpuWork> is it on the map ?
[13:11] <UpuWork> !track ABRC
[13:11] <UpuWork> !track BARC
[13:11] <AndyEsser> fsphil: they're rebooting it?
[13:11] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Its published 434.25MHz
[13:11] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/Atjkp8s
[13:11] <AndyEsser> found something :)
[13:12] <UpuWork> copy and paste I suspecty
[13:12] <UpuWork> .flights
[13:12] <Vaizki> or maybe thats whats on the ntx2b label
[13:12] <dbrooke> I had to tune around to find it, also shift is less than advertised
[13:12] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> !track 8614
[13:13] <UpuWork> shift is ~ 690
[13:13] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> At least its 8N2
[13:13] <fsphil> AndyEsser: yeah, but it's the guys who made the original film. they're ignoring the series
[13:13] <UpuWork> well must be close to me as my rotator isn't powering up for some reason
[13:13] <UpuWork> (remote)
[13:14] <UpuWork> and its still strong
[13:14] <AndyEsser> fsphil: hmm
[13:14] <AndyEsser> that'll suck
[13:14] <AndyEsser> the series laid down so much awesome lore
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[13:15] <craag> http://tracker.habhub.org/#!mt=roadmap&mz=9&qm=1_day&f=BARC&q=BARC
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[13:15] <SpacenearUS> 03UpuWork: Here you go - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ABRC
[13:15] <SpacenearUS> 03UpuWork: Here you go - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BARC
[13:15] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: Here you go - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=8614
[13:15] <SpacenearUS> 03UpuWork: Current flights: 03barc11-1 10(8614)
[13:16] <AndyEsser> laag
[13:17] <UpuWork> ping lz1dev
[13:17] <UpuWork> APRS user on Kraken is using 100%
[13:17] <UpuWork> python CPU
[13:17] <UpuWork> 18683 aprs 20 0 59240 41m 3672 S 95 0.5 268:15.90 python
[13:20] <Vaizki> renice? :)
[13:23] <lz1dev> UpuWork: it is?
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[13:24] <lz1dev> .aprs status
[13:24] <SpacenearUS> APRS Gateway: 03cache_size 10984 03callsigns 10192458 03igates 1015594 03ppm 10473 03queue_size 1015 03uptime 102 days
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[13:26] <AndyEsser> gah
[13:26] <AndyEsser> why isn't it 5pm!
[13:29] <fsphil> http://whereisit5pmrightnow.com/
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[13:34] <AndyEsser> lol
[13:36] <AndyEsser> fsphil: the photo of the JPL control room you have on your website... that's what I want my office to look like :)
[13:37] <fsphil> hah. I was thinking the same when I was there, but then realised it's so dark I'd keep tripping over all the crap I have on the floor
[13:38] <AndyEsser> hehe
[13:38] <AndyEsser> I tried to get my last job to put together an ops room like that for the games we supported
[13:38] <AndyEsser> sadly... the SysAdmins were so good at their job, there wasn't actually a reason to 24/7 on-site support, despite having 700 million registered users
[13:38] <eroomde> i see it has doug aswell in that jpl photo
[13:39] <eroomde> seeing something come into the voyager terminal on the bottom left of the big sceens was maybe the collest thing i saw there
[13:40] <fsphil> yeah, there was voyager data coming up when I was there too
[13:40] <fsphil> quite chuffed to have seen that
[13:40] <eroomde> spooky
[13:40] <AndyEsser> fsphil: do you have an aversion to HAB recovery?
[13:40] <fsphil> lol
[13:40] <AndyEsser> :)
[13:40] <fsphil> I'm geographically challanged
[13:42] <AndyEsser> fsphil: it'd be cool to someday try and co-ordinate something you launch with me recovering :)
[13:43] <AndyEsser> float something with a burst altitude of 25k on Saturday, and it'll pretty much land on the wirral according to the predictor :)
[13:44] <fsphil> http://predict.habhub.org/hourly/cookstown/
[13:44] <AndyEsser> I was not aware the predictor could do that!
[13:44] <fsphil> see this is why I don't often recover :)
[13:45] <AndyEsser> heh
[13:45] <fsphil> yeah, you can setup a hourly predictor for a site
[13:45] <AndyEsser> well, any of that area there I can easily get to - in case you get the desire to recover sometime :)
[13:45] <fsphil> I tried landing one near UpuWork once but it went too far
[13:46] <fsphil> but with a cut-down it should be pretty simple to land it somewhere sensible
[13:46] <AndyEsser> how does one go about setting up the hourly predictor?
[13:47] <fsphil> ask UpuWork nicely
[13:47] <AndyEsser> ah
[13:47] <AndyEsser> black magic stuff, rather than through the UI?
[13:47] <fsphil> yeah
[13:48] <fsphil> animal sacrifice, that sort of thing
[13:48] <AndyEsser> Friday 1pm would land it not far from my brothers house :)
[13:49] <AndyEsser> I should probably locate a site not too far from me that's acceptable for launches
[13:49] <AndyEsser> need to look at how Hawarden, Liverpool and Manchester airports interfere
[13:49] <AndyEsser> imagine I'll have to go into Wales
[13:49] <AndyEsser> *shudder*
[13:50] <AndyEsser> or down towards Wrexham
[13:51] <fsphil> it seems to be a tradition that I launch in snow, and there is some forecast for next week. so I might get a payload ready :)
[13:51] <AndyEsser> :)
[13:51] <AndyEsser> damnit... I won't have the car after monday :(
[13:52] <AndyEsser> although, if you potentially planned it for the weekend after - I could get a car again
[13:52] <fsphil> yeah it probably won't be this weekend
[13:52] <AndyEsser> well I'm away this weekend anyway
[13:52] <AndyEsser> also, not sure how well my little dongle and tiny aerial would be for chasing
[13:53] <AndyEsser> speaking of which - can anyone recommend a good antenna I should get?
[13:53] <AndyEsser> (for a static station - not chasing)
[13:53] <eroomde> watson w50
[13:53] <fsphil> ^
[13:53] <fsphil> or diamond x50
[13:53] <fsphil> basically the same
[13:54] <AndyEsser> hmm
[13:54] <AndyEsser> wonder if my landlord will be ok with my mounting that on my back wall of the house...
[13:55] <fsphil> you got a chimney?
[13:55] <AndyEsser> I do
[13:55] <AndyEsser> that would mean getting onto the roof...
[13:56] <fsphil> you'd want it above the roof line
[13:56] <AndyEsser> could quite easily mount it on the trellis in the garden actually
[13:56] <AndyEsser> hmm
[13:56] <AndyEsser> fair enough
[13:56] <AndyEsser> might ask him about it next time I speak to him
[13:56] <fsphil> I have to get mine back up too. but roof is too steep to walk on, so going to have to get a pro
[13:57] <eroomde> go pro
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[14:07] <Laurenceb_> moar liek go fail
[14:07] <Laurenceb_> the spot the parts of the design they outsourced camera
[14:07] <Laurenceb_> those being the parts that actually work properly
[14:17] <Ian_> Stick up a 25ft pole with the antenna on the top. Shouldn't be a problem with landlord because it doesn't attach to the building.
[14:17] <AndyEsser> Ian_: ha
[14:18] <Ian_> I have a 25ft pole supported by a vine eye at 7ft where there is a bit of lashing - string
[14:18] <Ian_> Unguyed
[14:22] <mfa298> you can also get various masts which would go up fairly quickly in the garden, options depend on how rich you're feeling and what space you've got
[14:22] <AndyEsser> I might look at sticking something on the decking at the back of my garden
[14:23] <AndyEsser> although it basically like having a neon sign saying "Here lives a MASSIVE nerd!"
[14:23] <AndyEsser> :)
[14:23] <AndyEsser> also, anyone hear used an NTX2b and doesn't mind me asking them some really n00by questions?
[14:23] <AndyEsser> s/hear/here
[14:23] <UpuWork> shoot
[14:24] <fsphil> we may make fun of you
[14:24] <SM0ULC-Reb> AndyEsser: well, you got to leave some space for when you have a 40m tower with multiple full-length yagis... ;)
[14:24] <fsphil> but ask away
[14:24] <AndyEsser> SM0ULC-Reb: hehe
[14:24] <AndyEsser> SM0ULC-Reb: maybe when I buy my own house
[14:24] <AndyEsser> ok so the NTX2b has 2 pins on it (EN and TX)
[14:24] <AndyEsser> TXD*
[14:24] <SM0ULC-Reb> AndyEsser: like this, http://se0x.info/blog/wp-content/uploads/G0021324.jpg
[14:25] <AndyEsser> the way I understand it, pulling EN high will cause the transmitter to transmit... something
[14:25] <fsphil> correct
[14:25] <UpuWork> it enables the module and unless you modulate TX somehow it will transmit a carrier
[14:25] <AndyEsser> setting the TXD pin, triggers the shift? or is there something more involved?
[14:25] <AndyEsser> because... that seems weird
[14:25] <AndyEsser> ah right
[14:25] <fsphil> the TXD pin is internally pulled to ground
[14:25] <AndyEsser> ok - so all the 'data' is the TXD pin?
[14:25] <SM0ULC-Reb> AndyEsser: anyhow, poles are great, not much weight, fairly easy to put up/down
[14:25] <UpuWork> yes AndyEsser
[14:25] <Flutterbat> AndyEsser: i simply blew usart with X Baud into the TX pin
[14:25] <AndyEsser> ah ok
[14:25] <UpuWork> if you have a bench PSU
[14:26] <fsphil> if you just wired EN it will transmit the lowest frequency it can
[14:26] <UpuWork> connect it to TX and turn it from 3V down to 0V and listen to the tone
[14:26] <AndyEsser> I thought for a moment it was like: EN = 0, EN + TXD = 1
[14:26] <UpuWork> it will reduce in frequency
[14:26] <SM0ULC-Reb> AndyEsser: and don't forget about using trees in different ways
[14:26] <UpuWork> to confuse matters EN can be used to program the frequency too
[14:26] <fsphil> the TXD pin simply adjusts the frequency
[14:27] <fsphil> RTTY is a frequency shift mode, so it all works nicely
[14:27] <AndyEsser> so the TXD pin isn't just a case of low, high, it needs something ab it more involvd/
[14:27] <AndyEsser> involved*
[14:27] <UpuWork> follow the instructions on the Wiki
[14:27] <Flutterbat> depending on the voltage you get more or less shift. im guessing in a standard config you will get SSB
[14:27] <AndyEsser> UpuWork: but but
[14:27] <AndyEsser> :P
[14:27] <UpuWork> specifically the high low example
[14:27] <fsphil> but that's pretty much it
[14:27] <fsphil> just vary the voltage going into it
[14:28] <AndyEsser> right gotcha
[14:28] <AndyEsser> ok
[14:28] <AndyEsser> so it is more involved than I thought, but still quite simple
[14:28] <fsphil> the examples on the wiki show you how to get the correct levels
[14:28] <fsphil> if you just went from 0v to 3v the shift between your two tones would be huge
[14:29] <AndyEsser> fsphil: but for testing purposes - I can just do that with a jumper lead on my breadboard and check I can see the frequency shift in SDR#?
[14:29] <fsphil> yeah
[14:29] <fsphil> you'll see the carrier move around
[14:29] <AndyEsser> And then work on my code to refine it down
[14:30] <fsphil> there are some standard shifts to aim for with rtty
[14:30] <fsphil> you don't have to, but it makes it easier to get close to one
[14:30] <AndyEsser> sure
[14:33] Nick change: luteijn_ -> luteijn
[14:33] <AndyEsser> looking forward to getting to play with it tonight :)
[14:34] <fsphil> they're quite neat
[14:34] <fsphil> basically FM transmitters. you could send audio over them
[14:35] <AndyEsser> there's just something cool about sending stuff over RF
[14:35] <Ian_> When you come to putting up a pole single handed, then swaged poles where you can support things vertically and lift to put in the next section is simple to do. A sort of shooting board arrangement.
[14:38] <AndyEsser> I quite like the idea of having a mast with a bunch of different antennae on and basically being able to receive all the things :)
[14:38] Action: AndyEsser ponders about making a radar system using NTX and NRX's
[14:39] <fsphil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k2ZuhAz0ac
[14:39] <eroomde> that'd just be a rubbish version of the active system we have already
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[14:40] <eroomde> radar gets EEs wetter than telemetry but it seems much more primitive than an active telemetry system, from a system point of view
[14:42] <Oddstr13> I should try to get rtty going with my crappy cheap ISM modules :P
[14:42] <AndyEsser> eroomde: radar is cool damnit!
[14:42] <AndyEsser> :P
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[14:43] <eroomde> it's interesting in general, but not so much in hab
[14:44] <AndyEsser> o yea - not about to strap a DIY radar system to a HAB :)
[14:44] <AndyEsser> although....
[14:44] <AndyEsser> :)
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[14:45] <SM0ULC-Reb> AndyEsser: i have a classical tv-mast-mount and then one 5m vertical pipe with horizontal extenters to mount different antennas on, vhf/uhf/adsb/ais etc
[14:45] <SM0ULC-Reb> AndyEsser: but requieres some good moutingpoint...
[14:46] <AndyEsser> Yea, it's not something I'm in a position to do right now anyway
[14:46] <AndyEsser> as I said, maybe when I've bought my own place with a garden, and have my radio license
[14:47] <SM0ULC-Reb> AndyEsser: for hf-stuff, a 6-8m fishingrod is a great start
[14:48] <Ian_> Start simple
[14:48] <Ian_> Focus
[14:48] <eroomde> AndyEsser: not that you need to buy more books but you might enjoy 'small and short-range radar systems' by charval. a very hands-on and experimental textbook introduction
[14:48] <eroomde> if you are actually interested in radar
[14:48] <AndyEsser> eroomde: I think that might already be on my amazon wishlist
[14:48] Action: AndyEsser checks
[14:49] <AndyEsser> ah no
[14:49] <AndyEsser> "Fundamentals of Radar Signal Processing" McGraw-Hill
[14:49] <AndyEsser> and
[14:49] <AndyEsser> "Radar Sysems Analysis and Design Using MATLAB"
[14:50] <AndyEsser> eroomde: that book is not cheap :P
[14:50] <AndyEsser> but added to the wishlist
[14:50] <AndyEsser> http://www.amazon.co.uk/registry/wishlist/2Y2T0IXVQO3UR
[14:50] <eroomde> it's cheap compared to all the mini-circuits parts you'll buy to work through the textbook
[14:51] <eroomde> don't buy it unless you're actually going to do it
[14:51] <eroomde> collecting textbooks without intent is a road to mental illness
[14:52] <AndyEsser> hehe - wasn't going to
[14:52] <AndyEsser> I need to work through my latest 3 first
[14:52] <eroomde> you just see the pile of books and get opressed by how much you don't know and have a breakdown
[14:53] <eroomde> better to have a project and get the textbooks as you need them to help you with certain bits of the project
[14:53] <AndyEsser> at least I can slowly start replacing some of my dad's books on my bookshelf that my SIL put there with something actually useful and interesting to me
[14:53] <AndyEsser> oddly enough... all the WW2 generals biographies sat there aren't of much interest to me
[14:54] <fsphil> I've got some old computer books I need to get rid of. well out of date
[14:54] <Ian_> Must be a couple of months old then . . .
[14:54] <AndyEsser> heh
[14:55] <fsphil> many years :)
[14:55] <Ian_> Technology moves quite fast
[14:55] <fsphil> yeah was a bit silly buying books in the first place
[14:56] <Ian_> No real satisfaction stacking bookmarks
[14:56] <eroomde> i'm jumpy about computer textbooks
[14:56] <eroomde> SICP is timeless
[14:57] <eroomde> o'reilly 'bumfluff.js and you', not so much
[14:58] <AndyEsser> eroomde: as someone that is looking to publish through O'Reilly soon... shush :P
[14:58] <AndyEsser> hehe
[14:58] <fsphil> heh, funny it's the o'reilly books I'm probably dumping
[14:59] <fsphil> I got some of their early make mag stuff too
[14:59] <fsphil> but that just got boring quite quickly
[14:59] <AndyEsser> but yea, O'Reilly, isn't the sort of books typically that you'll pick up in 20 years and still be relevant
[14:59] <AndyEsser> however a good book on CPU arch, or assembly, will be really useful pretty much forever
[15:00] <fsphil> depends on which assembly
[15:00] <fsphil> lots of the early arm stuff is out of date
[15:00] <eroomde> s/20/2/
[15:00] <fsphil> all seems to be thumb now
[15:00] <eroomde> thum2 now
[15:00] <AndyEsser> eroomde: you're not helping with my motivation to finish my book ¬¬
[15:00] <eroomde> lol sorry
[15:00] <eroomde> what is your book?
[15:01] <AndyEsser> WebGL Game Development
[15:01] <AndyEsser> brb
[15:01] <eroomde> to be fair the Python Cookbook is absolutely wonderful
[15:02] <eroomde> exactly like having an experienced python coder next to you to ask questions
[15:02] <fsphil> updated for python 3?
[15:02] <eroomde> what's the 'pythonic' way to do x or y. And there's usually some lovely new bit of the standard lib you didn't know about
[15:02] <eroomde> fsphil: yup
[15:02] <fsphil> not sure how long until python 4
[15:03] <fsphil> given that distros are only switching to 3 now, probably quite a while
[15:03] <eroomde> 3->4 is trivial compared to 2->3
[15:03] <nick_> I've found that the Go blog is a pretty good way of publishing the kind of information you'd get if the language designer ever got around to writing a text book.
[15:03] <eroomde> python 4 will just be python 3.11
[15:03] <eroomde> or whatever
[15:03] <fsphil> ah, indeed: "merely be "the release that comes after Python 3.9""
[15:04] <eroomde> so i wouldn't fret
[15:04] <eroomde> however, all the asyncio is new since the book was published
[15:05] <nick_> http://blog.golang.org/ (at least the language based posts)
[15:05] <eroomde> so if you want good ways to use all of that in combat situations then you might want to hold-off until the next version
[15:05] <AndyEsser> *shudders* at mention of python
[15:05] <eroomde> your loss
[15:05] <nick_> Hey, Python was the best language for the 2000s...
[15:06] <fsphil> it's great for playing about in. if I just want to see if an idea works
[15:06] <AndyEsser> I just never really got on with it's decision to not use brackets for scope
[15:06] <AndyEsser> as such never picked it up really
[15:06] <fsphil> but some of the python ways of doing things are really odd
[15:06] <AndyEsser> if I need a script, I use Bash or Node nowadays
[15:06] <eroomde> i have literally no idea what the f people are on about when they say things like that
[15:06] <nick_> That's a fairly bad reason not to use a good language.
[15:06] <eroomde> it seems to be accepted that that and whitespace is a genuine mental block
[15:07] <adamgreig> martlet 2's current resting place: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_8Dj-0WmbUl-wn72m11TA-MXbzEd8V1nwg/view?usp=sharing
[15:08] <eroomde> it'd be a bit like saying 'oh i didn't find those shoes comfortable to walk around in because the shoe laces qwere a different colour to what i'm used to' and everyone else says 'ah fair enough, yes, shoe-lcae colour, yes, to each his own'
[15:08] <mfa298> I really don't like scope being purely based on indentation, it becomes a big chore if you want to disable a block of code using something like 'if 0'
[15:08] <eroomde> and i'd be there saying 'what the fck are all of you on about? it doesn't matter in the least!'
[15:08] <adamgreig> mfa298: but that's a horrible antipattern
[15:08] <adamgreig> any text editor built in the last century can block-comment
[15:08] <adamgreig> and if you really want you can also just stick triple quotes around it for the same effect
[15:08] <eroomde> and i don't actually believe anyone is serious when they give that as a reason, they have just seen other people give it as a reason and absorbed it as 'an allowable reason'
[15:08] <adamgreig> "if 0" is just a weird C thing
[15:08] <fsphil> AndyEsser: what have you started :p
[15:09] <mfa298> I've had times where it's easier/better to remove code in that form rather than converting to comments.
[15:09] <adamgreig> maybe you need a better text editor
[15:09] <eroomde> that's beautiful adamgreig
[15:09] <adamgreig> try /bin/vi :p
[15:10] <nick_> I've learnt 4ish languages. Almost every one has some sort of issue that for the first few days is annoying, then if you either just get used to it or realise why it is designed that way.
[15:10] <mfa298> /bin/vi is shite, I use /usr/bin/vim
[15:10] <eroomde> having said all that, i am faster moving around C than python in vim
[15:10] <eroomde> but i've not put much effort into pythonifying my vim
[15:11] <eroomde> but i'm very used to a little refactor of some code chunk inside some scope being a ci}
[15:11] <nick_> Now I find that those features often make me think better about how I write code in other languages and try and take advantage of the design ideas.
[15:11] <mfa298> I've had similar annoyances when testing / converting bits of logic around, I usually get the logic right, then sort out the indentation. Having to fix indentation many times to test differnt logic becomes tedious
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[15:12] <adamgreig> but like, how is it really easier to change the position of a { or } than to indent or unindent a block?
[15:12] <adamgreig> it's the same number of keystrokes
[15:12] <adamgreig> or you do seriously need a better editor
[15:12] <adamgreig> if you're manually pressing space four times on each line to get them in place, the problem is not python
[15:12] <nick_> I can't say I've ever (in ~decade programming python) found indentation has screwed up some logic I'm trying to write.
[15:13] <AndyEsser> eroomde: I'm not saying Python is a bad language, or that it doesn't have it's uses - it's just each time I've sad down to try and get to grips with it - the whitespace thing pops up and it just... gets in the way and annoys me enough for me to go "sod it"
[15:13] <eroomde> i know you're not saying that
[15:13] <AndyEsser> s/sad/sat
[15:13] <Vaizki> https://code.google.com/p/google-security-research/issues/detail?id=693
[15:13] <Vaizki> Ouchhhhhh
[15:13] <nick_> You could probably tell from my C/C++ code that I write a lot of python.
[15:13] <eroomde> all the stuff i said in response had nothing to do with that
[15:13] <adamgreig> but.. don't you write C or anything else with strict indentation?
[15:13] <eroomde> it had to do with what you said you didn't get on with
[15:13] <adamgreig> if I'm writing C or Go or Rust or anything my indentation and whitespace is the same as it would be in Python
[15:13] <AndyEsser> eroomde: I know - but I was AFK and was responding to your first response about my comment
[15:13] <AndyEsser> just providing an explanation from my POV
[15:14] <nick_> adamgreig: does go fmt change it?
[15:14] <eroomde> nick_: far better that way round than the other way round
[15:14] <adamgreig> nick_: so
[15:14] <adamgreig> gofmt uses hard tabs set to eight spaces
[15:14] <eroomde> c written by someone who write a lot of python sounds much nicer than python from someone who write a lot of c
[15:14] <nick_> Yes. I'll not repeat my story aboud a colleage with a random number generator tied to his tab and return keys...
[15:15] <eroomde> we had a bit of an adjustment phase at work and now everyone writes nice python, but for a while i kept finding the sort of standard c-in-python nasties like, i dunno:
[15:16] <adamgreig> nick_: so gofmt and I don't get along so well, but I appreciate having everyone's code the same more than my own taste in indentation
[15:16] <eroomde> s = []; for i in len(inputs): s.append(inputs[i])
[15:16] <mfa298> I'd say I'm in the same boat as AndyEsser, I've not had much need for python, I tend to use perl/bash/C/C++ as those are what I've been using for 15 years, and work is a Ruby place, so there's little need for python, and for all of those indentation is for readability rather than syntax
[15:16] <adamgreig> thus I have my vim run gofmt every time i write >_>
[15:16] <nick_> adamgreig: I'm trying to come to terms with it more now.
[15:16] <mattbrejza> i think the arguement about tabs vs { } is invalid after using verilog for a bit
[15:16] <nick_> Since I'm writing a package that I expect to be public.
[15:16] <adamgreig> I think having 'gofmt' become The Thing Everyone Uses is amazing
[15:16] <Oddstr13> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4306267/ShareX/2016/01/2016-01-12_16-15-59.png slightly modified fade sketch, with the cheapo radio, and a 100µF cap :P
[15:17] <adamgreig> I'm sad they picked 8-wide hard tabs
[15:17] <AndyEsser> mfa298: yea - if I had to use python for work or something - I imagine I'd get passed the whitespace stuff - but have had nothing forcing me to learn it - so haven't, basically
[15:17] <nick_> Yeah, that's what I dislike the most. I have vim show me 4 spaces.
[15:17] <adamgreig> same
[15:17] <nick_> I mean 4 space wide tabs.
[15:17] <adamgreig> but that mucks up alignment
[15:17] <nick_> ?
[15:17] <adamgreig> hmm
[15:18] <adamgreig> no I guess it's mostly ok actually
[15:18] <adamgreig> I don't get the reasoning behind it
[15:18] <adamgreig> but I also keep all lines of anything I write to <80 cols
[15:18] <eroomde> AndyEsser: i'd learn python or matlab(octave) if you're going into engineering more
[15:18] <adamgreig> and 8 wide tabs really muck with that
[15:18] <eroomde> with your electronics and aerodynamics and so on
[15:18] <adamgreig> happily for me, I prefer rust, and rust style guide is 4 spaces
[15:18] <mfa298> I'm also old fashoined in that I like my tabs to be tabs, that way I can ':set ts=<n>' to change how the code looks,
[15:18] <nick_> adamgreig: yeah, I try to as well, but with 4 space tabs. So, oops.
[15:19] <AndyEsser> eroomde: Yea, I guess I should add it to my list, since many here seem to like it - I will likely stumble across a need for it
[15:19] <AndyEsser> is matlab(octave) the language used in matlab?
[15:19] <adamgreig> rust guides say 99 chars
[15:19] <AndyEsser> I can't remember mmuch from MATLAB days at uni
[15:19] <nick_> I think go shouldn't care about reasonable > 80 space lines.
[15:19] <eroomde> python with its numerical tools and plotting library (matplotlib) is great
[15:19] <nick_> Noone's really got these limitations any more.
[15:19] <eroomde> ipython notebook is a brilliant environemtn for playing around
[15:20] <adamgreig> nick_: what does that mean though?
[15:20] <eroomde> nick_: it's as much a human-readable thing as a technical limitation
[15:20] <adamgreig> I regularly have three columns of text on my 1920px wide screen
[15:20] <adamgreig> which gets me precisely 79 chars per column
[15:20] <nick_> Yes, but 80 chars isn't a human readability issue frequently these days.
[15:20] <adamgreig> what?
[15:20] <eroomde> the web doesn't have line width limitations, but we still format our prose to be 15 words (or whatever) wide max, rather than going from the left edge to the right edge of my 27" monitor
[15:20] <adamgreig> we've not evolved dramatically in the last two decades
[15:21] <nick_> If you want too many vertically split documents it's your own fault.
[15:21] <nick_> I'm not saying that hundreds of spaces wide is good, but that a hard limit isn't so much of an issue.
[15:21] <nick_> 90~80
[15:22] <adamgreig> gotta put the limit somewhere
[15:22] <AndyEsser> 1024
[15:22] <adamgreig> rust's 99 was reasonable for them
[15:22] <adamgreig> I like python's 80
[15:22] <adamgreig> encourages you to not do anything stupid with your functions either
[15:22] <adamgreig> if you find yourself needing that much indentation you should probably refactor anyway
[15:23] <nick_> adamgreig: I have a soft limit. 80 is what I like, but if splitting would make the code bad then a bit longer is OK.
[15:23] <eroomde> i agree with this 99% of the time
[15:23] <nick_> Usually what kills me is long strings.
[15:23] <nick_> Well, takes me a little over 80, it doesn't really kill me.
[15:24] <nick_> In my old work the stupid variable names my collaborators chose were the real problem.
[15:24] <adamgreig> hah
[15:24] <adamgreig> yea the main thing that I dislike about strict 80 char rule is the temptation to alias a variable to something much shorter if I'm about to use it a whole bunch
[15:25] <adamgreig> eroomde: I found once I agreed with it 99% of the time, I prefer sticking to it completely strictly even for the other 1%
[15:25] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Vaizki, Oh ouch yes!
[15:25] <adamgreig> more benefits from always meeting it than from almost-always
[15:25] <adamgreig> allows automatic enforcement for one thing
[15:26] <eroomde> i prefer it when you have: some_string = "Hello {}, I think you are a massive and stupid {}-head and you should {}-off" /n some_string.format(name, random_anatomal_part, random_jane_austen_word)
[15:26] <eroomde> rather than formating the string at declaration
[15:26] <adamgreig> that works
[15:26] <adamgreig> often I'll have something like
[15:26] <adamgreig> print("x = {}, y = {}, z = {}"
[15:26] <adamgreig> .format(x, y, z))
[15:26] <eroomde> adamgreig: yes, aliasing stuff to shorter stuff i usually how i hack around it
[15:27] <eroomde> but i do prefer it sometimes
[15:27] <nick_> x.Jet_AntiKt4LCTopo_isBadeLooseMinus.at(i) uses half your space before any indentation or functionality.
[15:27] <eroomde> say you have something that has to compute binomila theorem, i prefer
[15:27] <eroomde> f = math.factorial
[15:28] <adamgreig> yea
[15:28] <eroomde> ncr = f(n) / f(r) * f(n-r)
[15:28] <eroomde> that to may is much easier to see what's going on
[15:28] <adamgreig> if questioned, claim it's quicker in tight loops
[15:28] <adamgreig> python doesn't need to do the dict lookup on math :P
[15:28] <eroomde> i was about to say!
[15:28] <eroomde> i know there's a bodmass error in there
[15:28] <eroomde> ignore
[15:29] <eroomde> point was to iullustrate
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[15:29] <adamgreig> yep
[15:29] <Ian_> I much prefer explicit brackets to bodmas
[15:30] <Ian_> for removal of all doubt
[15:30] <eroomde> that would get super boring
[15:30] <eroomde> 2*a + 3 is fine for me
[15:31] <eroomde> speaking of readability, y = A @ t is a big win
[15:31] <Ian_> I don't like surprises either
[15:31] <eroomde> even if @ seems moderately clunk
[15:31] <eroomde> but then '*' seemed stupid to me when all i knew was 'x'
[15:32] <AndyEsser> I still wish we could get away with 2a + 3 and the (*) is implicit
[15:32] <AndyEsser> but I agree with Ian_ - explicit brackets on more complex things
[15:32] <eroomde> i think you can in julia
[15:32] <eroomde> i might have misremembered that
[15:34] <jonsowman> indeed you can
[15:35] <eroomde> one thing i really like in scheme is being able to use '?' in function names
[15:35] <eroomde> it makes the code quite clear i think
[15:35] <eroomde> for tests
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[15:52] <AndyEsser> DoesThisWork?()
[15:52] <AndyEsser> :)
[15:56] <mfa298> that is one thing that seems good in ruby. There's a convention that methods that return true/false have a ? at the end 'foo.isDigit?' and method that alter what's in the variable in place have a ! on the end 'foo.downcase!' would alter foo whereas 'foo.downcase' would return the lower case of foo but leave foo alone.
[15:57] <AndyEsser> hmm, I think the Is implies True/False anyway
[15:59] <mfa298> in that instance maybe, but some methods might be less obvious from the name. And it's convention rather than forced.
[16:00] <AndyEsser> Sure
[16:00] <AndyEsser> Eurgh this headache better have gone before I get home
[16:02] <eroomde> I prefer the ? to is_
[16:02] <eroomde> so like
[16:02] <eroomde> (prime? x)
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[16:42] <AndyEsser> I'm assuming when I get this GPS/RF stuff programmed - it would be frowned upon for me to leave it 24 hours hooked up to habitat as a soak test of various systems?
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[16:46] <UpuWork> nah
[16:46] <UpuWork> knock yourself out
[16:46] <AndyEsser> I'm not sure I trust leaving my kiboshed power supply running for 24 hours without me keeping an eye on it ;)
[16:49] <eroomde> i might lend you a psu on sat
[16:49] <eroomde> it's not great but it'll be better than what you have
[16:49] <AndyEsser> eroomde: don't do that
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[16:50] <eroomde> y not?
[16:50] <AndyEsser> I'd feel bad
[16:50] <AndyEsser> no idea when I'd be able to give it back
[16:51] <AndyEsser> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lavolta-BPS305-Variable-Linear-Adjustable-Lab-DC-Bench-Power-Supply-0-30V-0-5A-/191766020330
[16:51] <AndyEsser> That seems cheap - which I guess means it's not that great?
[16:51] <adamgreig> if anyone is ever tempted to buy a t962 reflow oven, definitely plan to do the modifications btw
[16:51] <adamgreig> having just opened one up
[16:51] <adamgreig> don't turn it on until you have
[16:54] Action: UpuWork looks at his T962
[16:55] <eroomde> AndyEsser: it might be rubbish
[16:55] <eroomde> and i am not in a huge hurry to get this one back
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[16:55] <AndyEsser> eroomde: well as long as you're sure - I won't say no :)
[16:55] <AndyEsser> worst case - I give it back at EMF or UKHAS conf :)
[16:55] <eroomde> if you want to buy a psu and don't want to spend >£100, i'd get a 2nd hand one from a good supplier
[16:55] <eroomde> an old HP one
[16:56] <eroomde> HP made the best gear (along with a few others) and theur old 2nd hand stuff is likely to be vastly vastly better than an equivalent new chinese thing for the same price
[16:56] <eroomde> the old farnell-badged PSUs were thurly thandar units and they're very good too
[16:56] <eroomde> and quite a few on ebay uk
[16:57] <AndyEsser> this sort of thing?
[16:57] <AndyEsser> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Farnell-L30-1-Bench-Power-Supply-0-30v-PSU-/231733473990?hash=item35f46432c6:g:2V8AAOSw14xWL46f
[16:58] <fsphil> nice retro look
[16:58] <eroomde> yes but for the money i'd get http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-Bench-power-supply-Farnell-L30-5-0-30V-0-5A-/351614330580?hash=item51ddd8e6d4:g:l7cAAOSw14xWMSTk
[16:58] <eroomde> 30V 5A
[16:58] <eroomde> v respectable
[16:58] <AndyEsser> fsphil: I hate that I want all my kit to look pwetty :(
[16:58] <AndyEsser> eroomde: o0o nice - thanks
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[16:58] <eroomde> and those are low noise too which will be useful if you want to power things like rf circuits
[16:59] <eroomde> it says the voltage control pot (doesn't say which) is a little noisy
[16:59] <eroomde> that's a super-easy fix
[16:59] <eroomde> you can swap it for a nice Bourns pot or something
[16:59] <fsphil> ah, kjds_stuff. he knows his stuff
[16:59] <eroomde> yes, he's v good
[16:59] <Vaizki> https://a2-images.myspacecdn.com/images04/2/cbcec09d67a040c9b1f0d15a7b0560cb/full.gif
[17:00] Action: fsphil makes a mistake and clicks "See other items"
[17:00] <Vaizki> We have snoooow!
[17:00] <Miek> shame he's sold out of the cheap HP supplies :(
[17:00] <murb> we had snoooow!
[17:00] <fsphil> Vaizki: are you in that group? :)
[17:00] <eroomde> Miek: that was a golden, golden age
[17:00] <eroomde> maybe never to return
[17:00] <fsphil> aaah agilent signal generator £695
[17:01] <fsphil> 3GHz
[17:01] <Vaizki> nope.. But you have not lived until you dive from a roof into 3 meters of snow :)
[17:01] <fsphil> I might not live long after
[17:01] <AndyEsser> right - time to pop home and start frying myself
[17:02] <AndyEsser> will be back on in 20 mins or so
[17:02] <Vaizki> Sauna before and you're fine
[17:03] <Vaizki> HP6632B psu <3
[17:03] <fsphil> it's so noisy but lovely
[17:04] <Vaizki> after a week of warming up my anritsu Siggen and eBay gpsdo are within 0.002Hz of each other
[17:04] <eroomde> it's silent electrically
[17:04] <eroomde> and that's the only volume that matters
[17:04] <fsphil> indeed
[17:04] <Vaizki> That's pretty amazing to me
[17:05] <Vaizki> also the volt/amp meter on the B model are fantastic
[17:06] <fsphil> it may be the most accurate meter I have, but I've nothing accurate to test it against :)
[17:07] <Vaizki> I tested it against a loaner keithley 2015 and it was spot on
[17:07] <fsphil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Agilent-HP8563A-Spectrum-Analyzer-22GHz-option-103-104-H09-/252234066625?hash=item3aba526ac1:g:DvIAAOSw0JpV3b7F
[17:07] <fsphil> the moneys
[17:07] <eroomde> i have a keysight (yes, even) 64431a which i'll test it against
[17:09] <eroomde> but i think it was basically the same as the bench meter at work
[17:11] <Vaizki> I am considering a E4406A actually.. I found a good one with baseband option etc for well under 500 GBP...
[17:12] <eroomde> they are around too atm
[17:12] <Vaizki> usually not with the B7C option though
[17:13] <Miek> i guess they flooded the market a bit after that nokia auction last year
[17:13] <Vaizki> well I got stuff from that auction but not those
[17:13] <Vaizki> Waiting for the Salo auction...
[17:14] <Vaizki> I got a silly powerful Anritsu siggen from the auction
[17:16] <Vaizki> Japanese government wanted a statement from me about intended use etc
[17:17] <fsphil> "paperweight"
[17:18] <eroomde> anchoring your yacht
[17:18] <fsphil> I suppose they wouldn't accept "generating signals"
[17:19] <Vaizki> I just put in radio R&D
[17:20] <Vaizki> it has 120MHz modulation bandwidth
[17:20] <Vaizki> so it does anything
[17:21] <Vaizki> everything too :)
[17:37] <AndyEsser> I have returned!
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[17:40] <GeminiX> Hj
[17:41] <GeminiX> N
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[17:42] <eroomde> well that was good
[17:50] <daveake> We await the other twin
[17:50] <AndyEsser> I have beeps and bops!
[17:51] <eroomde> you sound like a grandad trying to persuade their grandchild to take them clubbing
[17:52] <AndyEsser> o god
[17:52] <AndyEsser> time to mute SDR#
[17:53] <eroomde> the sound of rtty will embed into your brain
[17:53] <eroomde> you'll hear it in white noise
[17:53] <AndyEsser> haha
[17:53] <eroomde> you'll be able to hear from the noise when you have a lock and when you don't
[17:53] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/6FzQwqS
[17:53] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AGGIE-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AGGIE-1
[18:01] Nick change: jarod2 -> jarod
[18:02] <AndyEsser> so when EN is high on this module - I need to set SDR# to 434.399 - is that the frequency that I'd publish when saying I was doing a launch?
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[18:20] <fsphil> for rtty you'd normally use the centre frequency
[18:20] <fsphil> whatever is between the two tones
[18:20] <fsphil> but normally just round it up to the nearest 1khz
[18:20] <fsphil> it'll probably drift more than that, as will the receivers
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[18:28] <AndyEsser> ok, so the lower is 434.399 - when TX is applied it's ~434.405
[18:28] <AndyEsser> so I'd say something like 434.403
[18:28] <AndyEsser> ?
[18:30] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: On cargo airships. http://imgur.com/gallery/ZWZkj
[18:30] <AndyEsser> hehehe
[18:33] <fsphil> AndyEsser: yeah
[18:33] <fsphil> though naturally you want it narrower than that :)
[18:34] <AndyEsser> ok - and this is where the PWM stuff out of my microcontroller comes in
[18:34] <AndyEsser> as that was just me tapping the TX pin to +3.3v
[18:34] <Vaizki> they are called mark and space, the high and low frequencies
[18:35] <Vaizki> Don't do pwm, do 3 resistors
[18:35] <Vaizki> pwm is just an extra complication and takes up a timer
[18:35] <Vaizki> also the signal is not as clean
[18:35] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: just use 3 outputs from the uC going to certain value resistors to give say 1v, 2v, 3v into the TX pin?
[18:36] <AndyEsser> or 1 pin, and a voltage divider?
[18:36] <Vaizki> no just do a voltage divider + resistor on the pin
[18:36] <Vaizki> Yes
[18:36] <AndyEsser> the resitor on the pin - would that be the same that I have now based on datasheet for a max 3.3v input?
[18:37] <Vaizki> you choose the resistor to get the shift you want
[18:37] <Vaizki> and voltage divider
[18:38] <Vaizki> Eep iPhone irc sucks
[18:38] <AndyEsser> ok gotcha
[18:38] <AndyEsser> so if 3v shifts it 6khz
[18:38] <AndyEsser> and say I want to shift it 3khz instead
[18:38] <AndyEsser> I'd ahve a voltage divider to split it in half
[18:38] <Vaizki> Not that much
[18:39] <Vaizki> you want to offset it from zero
[18:39] <Vaizki> and max 1kHz shift I'd say
[18:39] <fsphil> if you're doing 50 baud, probably aim for about 350hz
[18:40] <AndyEsser> I want 9600 baud
[18:40] <AndyEsser> :P
[18:40] <fsphil> go for it :)
[18:40] <AndyEsser> I appreciate that even if I got that working.... it'd fail about as soon as I walked away from the balloon ;)
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[18:40] <Vaizki> voltage divider offsets it or "biases" it
[18:40] <fsphil> the biggest limit to speed at the moment is fldigi
[18:41] <AndyEsser> o really?
[18:41] <AndyEsser> can it not keep up?
[18:41] <fsphil> limited bandwidth
[18:41] <Vaizki> that's a long discussion...
[18:41] <fsphil> it's only got a 3-4khz window
[18:42] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: If you're using a conventional receriver.
[18:42] <fsphil> and the rtty decoder is not very good at higher baud rates
[18:42] <SpeedEvil> (which you will have to not at those baud rates)
[18:42] <fsphil> fldigi itself is limited to 4khz without modification
[18:42] <SpeedEvil> Or rather, switch to FM mode perhaps
[18:42] <SpeedEvil> that too, yes
[18:42] <AndyEsser> I actually wanted to attempt to write my own rtty decoder once I knew the electronics was working
[18:42] <AndyEsser> for sh*ts and giggles
[18:42] <fsphil> writing a demodulator is pretty interesting
[18:43] <fsphil> I made a crude one. wasn't even as good as fldigi :)
[18:43] <SpeedEvil> At >3000bps or so, RS232 comes through a wideband FM channel 'OK'
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[18:43] <SpeedEvil> Switched to 'FM' mode, and jsut taking the signal out directly and DC correcting
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> However, noise in the wider channel is much more of a problem
[18:44] <Vaizki> for higher data rates I guess people give up on rtty and go for multiple bits per symbol
[18:44] <Vaizki> Because why not
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> yes
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[18:44] <AndyEsser> I was toying with the idea of also trying out having say... 8 symbols and FSK'ing appropriately
[18:44] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[18:45] <AndyEsser> again... for sh*ts and giggles - likely wouldn't fly with it
[18:45] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: something like this? http://imgur.com/OBe1nrx
[18:45] <AndyEsser> or if I did fly with it - I'd alternate between RTTY and my stuff - so I Could still track
[18:47] <Vaizki> no voltage divider between ground and vcc
[18:47] <Vaizki> To bias
[18:48] <Vaizki> Then resistor in series with 328p to control shift
[18:48] <mattbrejza> (switch the ntx2 and 328 blocks)
[18:48] <Vaizki> Old version of wiki page has great info
[18:49] <mattbrejza> although actually what youve drawn will still work
[18:49] <AndyEsser> mattbrejza: switching the blocks results in the same thing, surely - just drawn weirdly
[18:50] <mattbrejza> yea ignore that comment, i only had a quick glance
[18:50] <AndyEsser> ah ok
[18:51] <mattbrejza> https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2?rev=1399496254
[18:51] <AndyEsser> ah ok
[18:51] <AndyEsser> that just looks really weird to me
[18:52] <AndyEsser> but that image clears it all up - thanks :)
[19:01] <mfa298> you can connect en direct to vcc, although when testing it can be useful to have it under uC control just so you don't have to have it on all the time
[19:02] <AndyEsser> Yea - well in my design I'd want it uC controlled anyway
[19:02] <Vaizki> You dont really want to drive ntx2b to the limita, i.e. 0V or Vcc ... signal is cleaner if younstay between the two and with a smaller shift
[19:03] <Vaizki> Do you want your payload to transmit somethig even whenthr uC is dead? ;)
[19:03] <mfa298> for a flight there might be some benefit in having en tied to vcc, just so it means the tx keep working even if the uC dies, which allows some direction finding.
[19:03] <Vaizki> .. and no real disadvantages
[19:04] <AndyEsser> was planning on building in a failsafe circuit :)
[19:05] <mfa298> I wonder if you could do it via a very weak pull up, that way if the uC dies and the pins go Hi-Z the pull up would keep the tx on, but in normal operation the uC could pull en low to turn off the tx
[19:05] <Vaizki> you can't predict the state of the pins on a dead uC
[19:07] <mfa298> in some ways a set of solder jumpers on the pcb is safer, connect en to the uC on test boards, and connect to vcc for flight boards (unless you get into power saving and want to turn the tx off to save a few mA)
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[19:09] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: right - have now proven to myself that that circuit works :)
[19:09] <AndyEsser> shall now run the numbers ;)
[19:10] <AndyEsser> my rough "plonk some resistors in" resulted in a shift of about 2khz
[19:10] <AndyEsser> although - chinese will be arriving shortly - so I shall adjourn for a bit for food, and then return to epicness :)
[19:10] <mfa298> I think there are some sample resistor values on the wiki page
[19:11] <AndyEsser> adams diagram uses 5v as the supply voltage
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[19:26] <Vaizki> but the math is there for you
[19:26] <Vaizki> the bias resistors can always be 4.7k for example
[19:34] <eroomde> is anyone else on aRocket here?
[19:43] <gonzo_nb> the universal value!
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[20:00] <AndyEsser> back
[20:04] <Vaizki> decoding yet? :)
[20:05] <AndyEsser> not yet
[20:05] <AndyEsser> need to get my avr programmer working again on my PC
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[20:21] <Laurenceb_> anyone any good with latex? I've got incomprehensible errors :-/
[20:21] <Laurenceb_> http://pastie.org/10686295
[20:26] <eroomde> s/{.49\columnwidth}/{width=.49\columnwidth}
[20:26] <eroomde> my first guess
[20:31] <Laurenceb_> oh
[20:31] <Laurenceb_> subfigure is part of subcaption not subfig
[20:31] <Laurenceb_> sooo stupid
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[20:35] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03N4XWC-1 after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N4XWC-1
[20:37] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03f0gra_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=f0gra_chase
[20:37] <AndyEsser> woo - AVR is toggling the TXD pin :)
[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> yay!
[20:41] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/0GxwkBr
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[20:43] <fsphil> wibbly wobbly
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[20:48] <AndyEsser> fsphil: timey whimey
[20:59] <Vaizki> are you doing on/off toggling with 3V?
[21:00] <Vaizki> you COULD use the zoom slider on the right to zero in on the signal ..
[21:00] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: the AVR is simply toggling the TXD ping, output 3.3v which goes into the aforementioned voltage divider + bias
[21:00] <Vaizki> right, it looks pretty clean
[21:00] <AndyEsser> the letter 'A' at 50 Baud actually sounds quite nice in a sea of static
[21:00] <Vaizki> I don't remember the bits straight away.. not THAT old..
[21:00] <Vaizki> I resent the notion!
[21:01] <AndyEsser> hehe
[21:02] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/uVuty1K
[21:02] <AndyEsser> :)
[21:02] <Vaizki> mmm.. looks pretty clean to me
[21:02] <AndyEsser> every 5 seconds, sending the message "This is a test message\r\n"
[21:03] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: I hate how it sprays out across other frequencies
[21:03] <Vaizki> you can also increase the speed from FFT display menu on the left
[21:03] <AndyEsser> I know it'll never be perfect
[21:03] <fsphil> it has to, if you have no sidebands you have no data :)
[21:04] <AndyEsser> now I guess I should hook up dl-fldigi and see if I can get my message to appear
[21:04] <AndyEsser> wait... I've basically just done Serial over that
[21:04] <AndyEsser> ie
[21:04] <AndyEsser> 50 baud, start and stop bits
[21:04] <Vaizki> yes
[21:04] <AndyEsser> 8 bits for data
[21:04] <Vaizki> :)
[21:05] <AndyEsser> that's correct for RTTY?
[21:05] <Vaizki> didn't anyone tell you...
[21:05] <Vaizki> yes
[21:05] <AndyEsser> ok cool
[21:05] <fsphil> yeah you can drive it from a serial port
[21:05] <Vaizki> just use 2 stop bits (or more) to aid in sync
[21:05] <AndyEsser> just realised I didn't actually check if RTTY used stop bits
[21:05] <AndyEsser> ha
[21:05] <fsphil> but the atmega328 only has one, which you might want for gps
[21:05] <AndyEsser> right - how does dl-fldigi work
[21:05] <AndyEsser> fsphil: I'll use I2C for data from the GPS chip
[21:05] <Vaizki> you feed audio to it
[21:06] <AndyEsser> I use the built-in UART for debug out to a console, and my CLI for stuff
[21:06] <fsphil> in that case you could actually use the uart to drive the ntx2b
[21:06] <Vaizki> so either loop a cable from audio out back to audio in.. or use a virtual audio device software
[21:06] <AndyEsser> Yea - I've got the virtual cable stuff installed
[21:06] <AndyEsser> had dl-fldigi running earlier when I was messing around and it had spurious characters appearing
[21:07] <AndyEsser> but wasn't sure about setting the frequency on it and stuff
[21:07] <Vaizki> yea so just demodulate that signal as USB like ou seem to be doing
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[21:07] <Vaizki> don't worry about frequency on dl-fldigi, it doesn't matter in this case
[21:07] <fsphil> just make sure the mode in fldigi is USB
[21:07] <AndyEsser> ok - on the waterfall I've clicked on the left hand side blip
[21:08] <fsphil> and turn SQL off (bottom right)
[21:08] <Vaizki> fldigi tries VERY hard so even with gaussian noise you will get characters
[21:08] <AndyEsser> yt aRnAn y Il n = t sd t rsiN Rno po
[21:08] <AndyEsser> eef ittsn'o ts atRpoevre0o}im= uot
[21:08] <AndyEsser> ( tl Rnt vn1
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[21:08] <AndyEsser> hehe
[21:10] <RealBorg> that's alien messages ;)
[21:10] <Vaizki> the borg answers your message!
[21:10] <fsphil> message encoded into the cosmic background radiation
[21:10] <fsphil> "uubn ubnare loading linux..... aergvaervn"
[21:10] <Vaizki> that would kinda suck.. send up hab repeating a message --> attract hostile alien civilization
[21:11] <AndyEsser> so should I be actually configuring anything in fldigi? or literally just making sure it's in usb and that's it?
[21:11] <AndyEsser> should I be setting the baud somewhere?
[21:11] <Vaizki> well you need to get the shift approx correct
[21:11] <Vaizki> and baud, data bits, parity yes
[21:12] <Vaizki> stop bits also but tbh it doesn't really care ;)
[21:12] <fsphil> Configure > Modems > rtty
[21:12] <Vaizki> yea standard rtty is 5 bit baudo
[21:12] <Vaizki> baudot
[21:13] <Vaizki> great thing about this hab lark is you get to google soooooo many new things :D
[21:13] <fsphil> order lots of latex without embarrassment
[21:13] <Vaizki> oooo
[21:13] <AndyEsser> lol
[21:14] <AndyEsser> right, I Guess I should actually calculate the frequency shift rather than eyeballing it ;)
[21:14] <Vaizki> can you get shiny black latex balloons?
[21:14] <Vaizki> naah no need :)
[21:14] <Vaizki> just eyball it
[21:14] <Vaizki> or adjust in dl-fldigi until it's spot on
[21:14] <AndyEsser> well... it looks like I'm shiftin between 434.3966 and 434.3982
[21:15] <fsphil> fldigi will show you two lines with whatever shift you have selected
[21:15] <Vaizki> easier to eyeball in dl-fldigi once you get AF on the WF there
[21:15] <fsphil> you just need to try and get your two lines to match
[21:15] <Vaizki> Audio Frequency and Water Fall.. sorry about the acronyms..
[21:15] <AndyEsser> the lines have vanished since I went into the modems configuration
[21:15] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: I guessed about WF :)
[21:15] <SM0ULC-Reb> AndyEsser: tip, up the waterfall width from 3k to 4k
[21:16] <Vaizki> yea because dl-fldigi works with audio, you are basically looking at 20Hz-22kHz or so
[21:16] <SM0ULC-Reb> AndyEsser: conf -> waterfall -> fft
[21:17] <Vaizki> and fl-digi slices off a part of that (default 3kHz) to show you
[21:17] <Vaizki> since your computer was made after 1998 it's ok to up it to 4kHz.. :D
[21:17] <AndyEsser> ok so the waterfall in fl-digi is the audio spectrum?
[21:17] <Vaizki> yes
[21:17] <AndyEsser> hehe
[21:17] <Vaizki> from the demodulated audio coming from sdr#
[21:17] <AndyEsser> yarp
[21:18] <AndyEsser> I'm just trying to work out why I've lost my obvious lines
[21:18] <Vaizki> it would of course be fantastic if dl-fldigi could demod i/q samples from sdr on it's own.. for example via gr-osmosdr
[21:19] <Vaizki> but.. so many things to optimize.. so little time.. etc
[21:19] <AndyEsser> o... I'm a muppet
[21:19] <AndyEsser> I know why my lines disappeared
[21:19] <AndyEsser> I retuned SDR# to find the shift spacing
[21:19] <AndyEsser> hehe
[21:19] <Vaizki> and dl-fldigi source is a bit.. umm.. let's say it discourages adding new stuff
[21:19] <fsphil> hah
[21:19] <fsphil> you are so polite
[21:19] <Vaizki> :)
[21:19] <RealBorg> very diplomatic
[21:20] <AndyEsser> heh
[21:20] <Vaizki> should roll our own in python tbh..
[21:20] <fsphil> hah that'd be cool
[21:20] <fsphil> wonder if it would be fast enough
[21:21] <fsphil> pyqt is actually quite nice
[21:21] <Vaizki> there's libraries for the fast stuff
[21:21] <Vaizki> all the filters, buffers etc are there
[21:21] <Vaizki> http://docs.scipy.org/doc/scipy/reference/index.html
[21:22] <Vaizki> and friends
[21:23] Action: SM0ULC-Reb spent some time on rtl_fm (ssb) => wsprd. No luck. Maybe write own demod..
[21:24] <Vaizki> anyway dl-fldigi seems to be doing the job so maybe hearts & minds are better spent on next-gen efforts..
[21:24] <Vaizki> but for AndyEsser, if it feels a bit kludgy that's because it is.. but it's good enough
[21:24] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: it gets the job done
[21:24] <AndyEsser> it's tried and tested
[21:24] <fsphil> it's done very well over the years
[21:24] <AndyEsser> doesn't mean I'm not going to attempt to write my own someday
[21:25] <Vaizki> like I just said! :D
[21:25] <AndyEsser> to be... updated
[21:25] <AndyEsser> ;)
[21:25] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: I was agreeing with you!
[21:25] <AndyEsser> although... it's going to get thrown out the window in a moment
[21:25] <Vaizki> I don't like that
[21:25] Action: Vaizki grumbles about this and that.
[21:25] <AndyEsser> people agreeing with you?
[21:25] <Vaizki> no.
[21:25] <Vaizki> just.. no.
[21:25] <fsphil> agreed
[21:25] <Vaizki> argh!
[21:26] <AndyEsser> I'm clearing doing something wrong here...
[21:26] <AndyEsser> for 50 Baud
[21:26] <AndyEsser> each 'bit' should be 20ms long, correct?
[21:26] <fsphil> yep
[21:27] <eroomde> fsphil: pyqt is presumably fast enough
[21:27] <Vaizki> AndyEsser: I once went through the history of RTTY in dl-fldigi.. it started out really simple, then went really scientific and all doctoral thesis, then a collection of weird "this just works" things and then finally all but one algorithm were dropped with some comment like "this is best"
[21:27] <fsphil> the most gfx intenstive part will be the waterfall
[21:27] <fsphil> not sure how that would be done in pyqt
[21:27] <AndyEsser> heh
[21:27] <eroomde> it doesn;t have to do much compared to them software modems (which i'm sure wouldn;t have a problem doing modems of a few tens of kb/s in real time)
[21:28] <eroomde> embed gl i guess
[21:28] <Vaizki> well the waterfall is quite intensive because of FFT also
[21:28] <AndyEsser> be a piece of piss to make a waterfall and render it in opengl
[21:28] <AndyEsser> I imagine it's more the processing that's the issue
[21:28] <AndyEsser> not the rendering
[21:28] <Vaizki> well you have to have bins to render first :)
[21:29] <eroomde> an fft of a few thousand samples is peanuts
[21:29] <AndyEsser> does fldigi even make use of multiple cores, etc?
[21:29] <eroomde> asside: numpy/scipy don;t use fftw cos licensing
[21:29] <Vaizki> yea 8096 should run fine with a semi-modern computer
[21:29] <eroomde> they have something a bit retarded instead
[21:29] <eroomde> but fftw bindings exist
[21:29] <Vaizki> fftw is not glp then?
[21:29] <Vaizki> gpl
[21:30] <Vaizki> or what licensing issues?
[21:30] <eroomde> the scipy fft just dies if the sample length is not 2^N for integer N
[21:30] <Vaizki> all numbers that are not 2^N are unnatural anyway :)
[21:31] <eroomde> there is this
[21:31] <eroomde> https://github.com/hgomersall/pyFFTW
[21:31] <eroomde> which seems to be what most people use
[21:31] <eroomde> and as an added bonus, henry used to be in the same lab as adamgreig and me
[21:40] <Vaizki> someone code a replacement for agilent 86900 quick
[21:40] <Vaizki> I mean hp.. keysight..
[21:41] <fsphil> keylent
[21:41] <fsphil> agisight
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[21:44] <Vaizki> regarding AndyEsser's dislike for those "overshoots" into adjacent spectrum when the frequency shifts.. that could be reduced in a GFSK type manner right?
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[21:45] <Vaizki> round off the signal transitions a bit
[21:45] <fsphil> low pass filter on the input would reduce them
[21:45] <fsphil> no point though
[21:45] <Vaizki> hmmmm right I now remember we actually discussed this before
[21:46] <fsphil> they're only si visible because it's testing at close range
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[21:47] <Vaizki> yea I guess screw the adjacent channels, screw gfsk .. :)
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[22:12] <stilldavid> anyone around flown a wheel antenna? eg, from wa5vjb
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[22:27] <AndyEsser> Right, thanks to much help from fsphil - I have a message being sent via RF from my 328 into SDR#, decoded by dl-figi :)
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> yay
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[22:41] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03123_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=123_chase
[22:42] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03an_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=an_chase
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[22:53] <AndyEsser> ÿ¾
[22:53] <AndyEsser> $EAD-PLS-01,0,0000.00,0000>8<HÈÿýï
[22:53] <AndyEsser> $EAD-PLS-01,0,0000.00,0000.08,HÈÿÿÿ
[22:53] <AndyEsser> $EAD-PLS-01,0,000?00<0¸¸¸¿¸¸¾¸H
[22:53] <AndyEsser> close...
[22:53] <jcoxon> AndyEsser, need to perhaps work on your timings
[22:53] <jcoxon> and also adjust your filters in dl-fldigi
[22:54] <AndyEsser> jcoxon: almost certainly a timing issue - I'm using the AVR delays library (software timers) rather than hardware interrupt timers
[22:55] <jcoxon> :-)
[22:56] <jcoxon> certainly possible to get it working with delay
[22:56] Action: jcoxon did it that way
[22:56] <Vaizki> yea especially at 50bps
[22:57] <jcoxon> night all
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[22:59] <fsphil> AndyEsser: try 2 stop bits on your tx
[23:00] <AndyEsser> well hot damn
[23:00] <AndyEsser> that actually seems to be behaving better
[23:01] <AndyEsser> ð¬
[23:01] <AndyEsser> $EAD-PLS-01,0,0000,0000.00,0
[23:01] <AndyEsser> _
[23:01] <AndyEsser> $EAD-PLS-01,0,0000.00,0000.00,0
[23:01] <AndyEsser> »¿
[23:01] <AndyEsser> $EAD-PLS-01,0,0000.00,0000.00,0
[23:01] <AndyEsser> ýþÿß
[23:01] <AndyEsser> $EAD-PLS-01,0,0000.00,0000.00,0
[23:01] <AndyEsser> ÿÿÿýXLS-01,0,0000.00,0000.00,0
[23:01] <fsphil> should still be better than that
[23:01] <fsphil> odd
[23:02] <daveake> 50 baud? Filter width set to auto? Shift set correctly with the 2 red cursor lines in the middle of the signal lines ?
[23:05] <Vaizki> Screenshots! :)
[23:07] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/C6avIrH
[23:08] <Geoff-G8DHE> In SDR# increase the FFT resolution!#
[23:09] <Vaizki> widen your filter
[23:09] <fsphil> or reduce your shift
[23:09] <fsphil> the signal isn't quite 600hz
[23:11] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: sorry - what do you mean?
[23:11] <Vaizki> I mean widen filter from 1K in sdr#
[23:11] <AndyEsser> ah the Bandwidth size?
[23:11] <Vaizki> To 3k for example
[23:11] <Vaizki> Yes
[23:14] <Vaizki> and more gain in sdr#
[23:14] <Vaizki> The volume slider
[23:14] <AndyEsser> ok reduced the shift slightly
[23:15] <AndyEsser> increased bandwidth to 3k
[23:15] <AndyEsser> and pushed the gain up to full
[23:16] <AndyEsser>  ¾+
[23:16] <AndyEsser> $EAD-PLS-01,0,0000.00,0000.00,0
[23:16] <AndyEsser> `B
[23:16] <AndyEsser> $EAD-PLS-01,0,0000.00,0000.00,0
[23:16] <AndyEsser> ³
[23:16] <AndyEsser> $EAD-PLS-01,0,0000.00,0000.00,0
[23:16] <AndyEsser> b)
[23:16] <AndyEsser> $EAD-PLS-01,0,0000.00,0000.00,0
[23:17] <Vaizki> Black diamond at bottom of dlfldigi should turn green
[23:17] <AndyEsser> It's a red diamond
[23:17] <Vaizki> Ah too much gain then
[23:17] <AndyEsser> occasionally turning green
[23:18] <Vaizki> try for constant green
[23:18] <Vaizki> How close are your tx and dongle?
[23:18] <AndyEsser> appear to have got constant green
[23:18] <AndyEsser> erm - about 50cm
[23:18] <Vaizki> double that
[23:18] <AndyEsser> I also think I've got the wrong aerial on the dongle two secs
[23:19] <Vaizki> you don't need an aerial probably...
[23:20] <AndyEsser> ok they're about 1m apart now
[23:20] <AndyEsser> and both have aerials about 164mm
[23:20] <AndyEsser> if I take the wire aerial from the NTX2b module, the dongle barely registers it
[23:21] <AndyEsser> o no - with the proper aerial on the dongle, I can remove the wire 1/4-wave whip from the NTX and get a 'cleaner' signal in SDR#
[23:21] <Vaizki> What is RF gain on dongle then
[23:22] <Vaizki> Yea thought so
[23:22] <fsphil> overloading it
[23:22] <Vaizki> Yup
[23:22] <AndyEsser> the message almost always comes through complete - but still has lots of chunk either at beginning or end
[23:22] <Vaizki> Scotty I need less power
[23:22] <AndyEsser> $EAD-PLS-01,0,0000.00,0000.00,0
[23:22] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[23:22] <AndyEsser> DìÞWLS-01,0,0000.00,0000.00,0
[23:22] <AndyEsser> :4V
[23:22] <AndyEsser> $EAD-PLS-01,0,0000.00,0000.00,0
[23:22] <AndyEsser> L
[23:22] <AndyEsser> $EAD-PLS-01,0,0000.00,0000.00,0
[23:22] <fsphil> oh that's normal
[23:22] <fsphil> it's trying to decode the noise
[23:23] <AndyEsser> is it not possible to squelch to silence?
[23:23] <fsphil> generally a bad idea
[23:23] <fsphil> it could cut out weak but valid telemetry
[23:23] <AndyEsser> ah ok
[23:23] <Vaizki> you never know when your signal fades
[23:23] <mattbrejza> do you turn the radio off betweeen each string?
[23:23] <fsphil> try leaving your radio on
[23:23] <AndyEsser> hmm, mattbrejza - I do
[23:23] <Vaizki> yea never turn it off
[23:23] <fsphil> if you transmit a stop bit between strings, it should silence it
[23:23] <AndyEsser> if I leave it on... then it's always sending a start bit effectively
[23:24] <fsphil> needs to be a stop bit
[23:24] <Vaizki> It takes time to stabilize
[23:24] <fsphil> it starts decoding on the transition from stop to start
[23:25] <AndyEsser> :)
[23:25] <AndyEsser> :0
[23:25] <AndyEsser> :)
[23:25] <AndyEsser> `$EAD-PLS-01,0,0000.00,0000.00,0
[23:25] <AndyEsser> $EAD-PLS-01,0,0000.00,0000.00,0
[23:27] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
[23:27] <AndyEsser> anyway to hear the audio whilst also sending it to dl-figi
[23:27] <AndyEsser> ?
[23:28] <mattbrejza> there is an option called 'listen tp this device' under recording devices in windows
[23:28] <AndyEsser> :)
[23:28] <AndyEsser> Thanks
[23:28] <AndyEsser> have received over 15 flawless messages now
[23:29] <AndyEsser> it was the stop bit/radio off bit that seems to have done it :)
[23:29] <AndyEsser> thanks so much guys
[23:29] <Vaizki> they need a checksum
[23:29] <Vaizki> ;)
[23:29] <AndyEsser> what checksum algo do people recommend?
[23:29] <mattbrejza> ccitt 16
[23:30] <mattbrejza> 'xmodem'
[23:30] <Vaizki> Very simple
[23:30] <fsphil> need another $ too
[23:30] <fsphil> or £ if you want to be proper
[23:31] <fsphil> (not really)
[23:31] <AndyEsser> fsphil: I haven't investigated exact message format yet
[23:31] <AndyEsser> I just saw some quick examples
[23:32] <fsphil> how dare you not get everything correct first time
[23:32] <AndyEsser> sorry master
[23:32] <Vaizki> but congrats on end to end data
[23:32] <AndyEsser> 100 Baud works as well
[23:32] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: last bit I'd love to do tonight is get I2C data from the GPS chip and send that over RTTY
[23:33] <fsphil> 600 baud has been used
[23:33] <AndyEsser> but the sensible part of me thinks I should probably call it
[23:33] <Vaizki> long night? :)
[23:33] <fsphil> a guy in .nl did 1200, but it was tricky
[23:33] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: I did think about doing an all-nighter :)
[23:33] <fsphil> all nighters are great ideas until the next morning
[23:33] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-58 after 0310 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-58
[23:34] <Vaizki> my internet died so sleep for me
[23:34] <Vaizki> G'nite
[23:34] <AndyEsser> 600 Baud works :)
[23:34] <AndyEsser> doesn't sound quite so nice on the ears
[23:34] <daveake> nope
[23:35] <daveake> 50 sounds nice
[23:35] <AndyEsser> 100 and below had a... melodic sound to it
[23:35] <AndyEsser> this sounds almost like 56k modem bad
[23:35] <AndyEsser> ;)
[23:35] <daveake> especially when your payload has landed and the rtty appears out of the static
[23:35] <AndyEsser> heh yea
[23:35] <AndyEsser> my 'failsafe' was going to be a nice rhytmic beeping so it could be find by directional antenna
[23:36] <fsphil> and when you get that first green line after landing
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[23:36] <AndyEsser> and didn't sound god awful if you were wandering around a field for 2 hours
[23:36] <AndyEsser> s/find/found
[23:36] <fsphil> I did one that played some "music"
[23:37] <fsphil> the tones depend on how the radio was tuned so it sounded really, odd
[23:37] <AndyEsser> for my first launch/release I might alternate between 600 and 50 - and just see how it behaves
[23:37] <fsphil> but a few people managed to identify them
[23:37] <AndyEsser> heh
[23:37] <fsphil> not a fan of alternating
[23:37] <daveake> you could do morse
[23:37] <daveake> or instead be sensible and don't bother
[23:37] <fsphil> just more work for you
[23:38] <AndyEsser> lol
[23:38] <daveake> alternating is a pita
[23:38] <AndyEsser> you guys spoil all my n00b ideas :P
[23:38] <AndyEsser> daveake: it can't be that bad surely?
[23:38] <AndyEsser> two dongles, two copies of dl-figi
[23:38] <daveake> tho these days with stable transmitters it should be OK
[23:38] <daveake> yeah
[23:38] <fsphil> true
[23:38] <Lunar_Lander> it's fortunate that balloons aren't available at poundland but require highly qualified specialists working on a system for about three years
[23:39] <Lunar_Lander> :D
[23:39] <daveake> some flights have done 2 rates and had gaps of no carrier
[23:39] <fsphil> if you do go with it, can I suggest you add a few beeps at the upper tone
[23:39] <daveake> which, with a drifting transmitter, becomes a challenge
[23:39] <fsphil> before it starts transmitting, gives you time to tune
[23:39] <fsphil> nice thing about sticking with a single rate is fldigi will track it as it drifts
[23:40] <daveake> I remember one of mine - ntx2 and almost no insulation - drifted so fast I had to retune every sentence
[23:40] <Lunar_Lander> good night :)
[23:40] <fsphil> (within limits)
[23:40] <AndyEsser> so... if I were to use hardware radio RX instead of SDR
[23:40] <AndyEsser> I Guess the output just goes into the microphone inpu and that's what dl-figi reads from?
[23:40] <AndyEsser> instead of Virtual Cable nonsense?
[23:40] <fsphil> sdr is hardware :)
[23:40] <daveake> :)
[23:40] <fsphil> just, less of it
[23:40] <daveake> yes
[23:40] <AndyEsser> lol
[23:40] <daveake> knobless radio
[23:41] <AndyEsser> SDR = Seriously Dysfunctional Radio
[23:41] <AndyEsser> :)
[23:41] <fsphil> ham radio will always have knobs
[23:41] <daveake> Yes I was working on saying that somehow ... :)
[23:41] <AndyEsser> ok.... that's enough of that beeping noise
[23:41] <daveake> So SDRs ...
[23:41] <fsphil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ua21FSnIXc
[23:41] <fsphil> ^ real radio
[23:42] <daveake> ... do I need a HackRF ?
[23:42] <fsphil> are you planning to transmit?
[23:42] <daveake> Well not to anyone, no
[23:42] <fsphil> then probably not
[23:42] <daveake> :)
[23:42] <fsphil> airspy is a better receiver
[23:42] <daveake> got one
[23:42] <daveake> was wondering if tx might be handy, say for tuning aerials
[23:42] <fsphil> hackrf's main advantage is bandwidth (can receive 20mhz) and that it can transmit
[23:43] <daveake> 20 wow
[23:43] <daveake> not sure what I'd need it for
[23:43] <fsphil> yeah. I've been using the 20mhz for transmitting video
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[23:43] <fsphil> I think for the antenna tuning you need full duplex, which the hackrf can't do
[23:44] <fsphil> need the bladerf for that
[23:44] <daveake> ah ok
[23:44] <daveake> So do I need a bladerf? :p
[23:44] <AndyEsser> hmm... stay up and work on the GPS stuff... or be sensible
[23:44] <fsphil> for antenna tuning? dunno :)
[23:44] <daveake> be sensiible, and stay up
[23:45] <daveake> Are you doing nmea or ubx ?
[23:45] <fsphil> we'll wait for you to google
[23:45] <AndyEsser> nmea
[23:45] <fsphil> aww you already knew what they where. you're learning too quickly, we can't make fun of you :p
[23:45] <AndyEsser> fsphil: :)
[23:45] <AndyEsser> remember I've had to read for the last few weeks before I had hardware to play with
[23:45] <daveake> ok nmea on i2c is easy
[23:46] <AndyEsser> NMEA is a fairly standard string based protocol for sending data
[23:46] <AndyEsser> UBX is the ublox proprietary protocol
[23:46] <daveake> Just read the next byte ... if it's 0xFF then there's no data for you
[23:46] <fsphil> how do you manage ubx with that?
[23:47] <daveake> you don't
[23:47] <daveake> ubx i2c is a pita
[23:47] <Vaizki> No it's not :P
[23:47] <daveake> If AndyEsser wants to stay up and finish i2c ubx in the morning, he needed to start 36 hours ago :/
[23:48] <AndyEsser> lol
[23:48] <Vaizki> You get ints into a struct directly
[23:48] <daveake> ofc and that part is indeed easy
[23:49] <daveake> but I guarantee if he starts now he won't be finishing tonight
[23:49] <AndyEsser> for UBX or NMEA?
[23:49] <Vaizki> well that's probable yes :)
[23:49] <daveake> ubx
[23:49] <fsphil> if only I didn't have work in the morning
[23:50] <daveake> for nmea, the conversion from serial to i2c is straightforward
[23:50] <daveake> I don't
[23:50] <daveake> Signed myself off for the week :p
[23:50] <AndyEsser> fsphil: I have work
[23:50] <fsphil> you'll need to send yourself a warning letter
[23:50] <AndyEsser> lets both stay up doing cool stuff...
[23:50] <AndyEsser> and then try and keep each other awake tomorrow
[23:50] <AndyEsser> wait... that sound dirtier than I meant
[23:51] <fsphil> lol
[23:51] <daveake> lol
[23:51] <fsphil> tomorrow is going to be bad enough
[23:51] <fsphil> though if I collapse with exhaustion...
[23:52] <AndyEsser> fsphil: so you don't have any radio stuff that has the range to reach me here?
[23:52] <fsphil> not on UHF no
[23:52] <fsphil> could probably do it on the HF bands, but I'm not sure your rtlsdr can receive those (though some people managed it
[23:52] <Vaizki> there's the ISS always
[23:53] <fsphil> hah, yes or bounce it of the ISS
[23:53] <fsphil> I could do 20 watts on 70cm, doubt that would be enough
[23:53] <AndyEsser> fsphil: what freqs is HF?
[23:53] Action: AndyEsser should probably learn this stuff
[23:53] <Vaizki> 0-30
[23:53] <fsphil> 3-30mhz
[23:54] <AndyEsser> theoretically the RTL can receive that I believe - and if I stick the bigger aerial on, it'll be closer to the correct length
[23:54] <fsphil> signals there refract of the ionosphere so can cover great distances
[23:54] <fsphil> it's how the PS- balloons have been tracked
[23:54] <AndyEsser> yea
[23:54] <AndyEsser> does the refraction affect the signal?
[23:54] <fsphil> yeah
[23:54] <fsphil> you can get multi-path distortion
[23:54] <AndyEsser> same way as light refracting etc is attenuated and shifted
[23:55] <AndyEsser> is that when the signal goes multiple paths so is slightly behind the signal you recieved 0.0000000ms before etc and distorts?
[23:55] <fsphil> you might get the same signal from two different areas of the ionosphere
[23:55] <fsphil> but out of phase, so they cancel out
[23:55] <fsphil> yeah
[23:55] <fsphil> they can add or cancel
[23:55] <fsphil> and it's moving all the time
[23:56] <fsphil> if you've ever listened to shortwave radio, you can usually hear it
[23:56] <AndyEsser> yea, I think I know what it sounds like
[23:56] <AndyEsser> *sigh* why didn't my USB-TTL UART cable arrive today
[23:56] <AndyEsser> would be really helpful for debugging right now
[23:57] <AndyEsser> really cba to set up the MAX232
[00:00] --- Wed Jan 13 2016