highaltitude.log.20160111

[00:09] Kryczek (~kryczek@about/security/staff/Kryczek) left irc: Quit: brb
[01:17] DL7AD (~sven@p4FD411C4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) left irc: Quit: Leaving.
[01:26] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[01:32] YO9GJX (~YO9GJX@109.102.153.76) left irc: Ping timeout: 272 seconds
[01:33] Kryczek (~kryczek@about/security/staff/Kryczek) joined #highaltitude.
[01:36] Ian_ (4d66af83@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.102.175.131) left #highaltitude.
[01:36] Ian_ (4d66af83@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.102.175.131) joined #highaltitude.
[01:45] YO9GJX (~YO9GJX@109.102.153.76) joined #highaltitude.
[02:08] mbales (~mbales@ip184-187-162-46.sb.sd.cox.net) joined #highaltitude.
[03:00] Laurenceb_ (~Laurence@host86-176-9-204.range86-176.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 272 seconds
[03:11] mbales (~mbales@ip184-187-162-46.sb.sd.cox.net) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[03:43] jevin (~jevin@72.12.217.220) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[03:53] israelzuniga (~israel@187.172.4.36) left irc: Quit: israelzuniga
[03:56] heathkid|2 (~heathkid@unaffiliated/heathkid) joined #highaltitude.
[03:57] heathkid (~heathkid@unaffiliated/heathkid) left irc: Ping timeout: 264 seconds
[03:57] Nick change: heathkid|2 -> heathkid
[04:13] LazyL_M0LEP (~irc-clien@41.215.89.46) joined #highaltitude.
[05:09] stheory (~nic@182.75.45.1) left irc: Ping timeout: 265 seconds
[05:14] YO9GJX (~YO9GJX@109.102.153.76) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[05:32] LazyL_M0LEP (~irc-clien@41.215.89.46) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[05:36] mbales__ (~mbales@ip184-187-162-46.sb.sd.cox.net) joined #highaltitude.
[06:14] mbales__ (mbales@ip184-187-162-46.sb.sd.cox.net) left #highaltitude.
[06:23] LazyL_M0LEP (~irc-clien@41.215.89.46) joined #highaltitude.
[06:24] es5nhc (~tarmo@108-40-71-217.sta.estpak.ee) joined #highaltitude.
[07:09] LazyL_M0LEP (~irc-clien@41.215.89.46) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[07:21] number10 (d42c14ce@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.44.20.206) joined #highaltitude.
[07:40] ipdove (~ipdove@interclub.plus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[07:43] Flutterb1t (~flutterba@unaffiliated/day) joined #highaltitude.
[07:47] Flutterbat (~flutterba@unaffiliated/day) left irc: Ping timeout: 255 seconds
[07:47] Nick change: Flutterb1t -> Flutterbat
[07:47] UpuWork (~UpuWork@smtp.nevis.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[07:52] Flutterbat (~flutterba@unaffiliated/day) left irc: Quit: Lost terminal
[07:54] Flutterbat (~flutterba@unaffiliated/day) joined #highaltitude.
[07:55] fab4space (~Fabrice@AMontpellier-656-1-311-157.w86-202.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[08:07] LazyL_M0LEP (~irc-clien@41.215.89.46) joined #highaltitude.
[08:17] sv3ora (968c0c4d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.150.140.12.77) joined #highaltitude.
[08:17] <sv3ora> good morning
[08:18] <fsphil> ahoy
[08:18] <fsphil> and now the long struggle to full consciousness begins. it should be complete just before bed time
[08:19] <nats`> fsphil: I don't even know how I go through days :P
[08:20] <nats`> I only remember between 20h and 2h
[08:20] <nats`> :D
[08:23] <Ian_> My hours are so screwed up at the moment that it is totally unfunny :)
[08:23] <Ian_> No zzz discipline at all
[08:25] <Vaizki> I went to sleep at 2130 and woke up at 0730!
[08:25] <Vaizki> talk about a proper night's sleep
[08:26] [1]michal_f (~michal_f@91.146.241.130) joined #highaltitude.
[08:28] michal_f (~michal_f@91.146.241.130) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[08:28] Nick change: [1]michal_f -> michal_f
[08:36] <sv3ora> This is a very simple transmitter http://www.swharden.com/blog/2010-07-14-high-altitude-balloon-transmitter/, no tuned circuits etc. A kid's project.
[08:37] <SA6BSS-Mike> Automatic
[08:37] <SA6BSS-Mike> http://www.swharden.com/blog/2010-07-14-high-altitude-balloon-transmitter/
[08:37] <SA6BSS-Mike> a little "," come with the link
[08:37] <Oddstr13> clicking it stripped the "/," at the end for me :P
[08:41] [1]michal_f (~michal_f@91.146.241.130) joined #highaltitude.
[08:42] <fsphil> 2010 - rtty was already being used at that point
[08:43] michal_f (~michal_f@91.146.241.130) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[08:43] Nick change: [1]michal_f -> michal_f
[08:44] DL7AD (~sven@p4FD42A1B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #highaltitude.
[08:53] <AndyEsser> morning all
[08:58] <Vaizki> top of the morning indeed
[09:04] <sv3ora> I like the way they use the chip as an amplifier
[09:04] <sv3ora> and a simple canned oscillator controlled by the micro
[09:04] <sv3ora> quick and dirty, but it works
[09:05] <sv3ora> I guess it can be made very lichtweight using smd parts
[09:25] LazyL_M0LEP (~irc-clien@41.215.89.46) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[09:30] <fsphil> http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/2016/01/08/philae-status-report-time-is-running-out/
[09:30] <fsphil> nearly time to give up on philae soon
[09:32] <AndyEsser> "In the night of 21-22 December, 2015, the receiver on Rosetta was triggered, but analysis showed that this was not a transmission from the lander."
[09:32] <AndyEsser> ^ Aliens!
[09:32] <fsphil> "ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS..."
[09:35] <fsphil> next up are the japanese landers
[09:35] <RealBorg> R.I.P. David Bowie - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpLw8VW-R7I
[09:36] <fsphil> though that's not until 2018. and it's an astroid rather than a comet
[10:01] es5nhc (~tarmo@108-40-71-217.sta.estpak.ee) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[10:02] es5nhc (~tarmo@108-40-71-217.sta.estpak.ee) joined #highaltitude.
[10:18] vk5akh (017d3050@gateway/web/freenode/ip.1.125.48.80) joined #highaltitude.
[10:31] gonzo_nb (~gonzo@host-92-6-244-28.as43234.net) joined #highaltitude.
[10:36] <sv3ora> I am looking for a compact filter for 1296MHz. The simpler and most compact I have found is this http://dl4xav.sysve.de/0.5lambda.filter/0.5lambda.filter.html Does anyone know any other compact designs?
[10:37] <Darkside> what about microstrip filters?
[10:38] vk5akh (017d3050@gateway/web/freenode/ip.1.125.48.80) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[10:40] <sv3ora> I have not found any compact design for 1296MHz on microstrip. Plus they require PCBs with specifir eR
[10:41] <sv3ora> Er
[10:41] <sv3ora> Even the hairpin filters are not so compact
[10:42] <sv3ora> Also, not easily homemade, hiven the etching tolerances we can achieve at home.
[10:43] <Darkside> getting pcbs fabbed isn't that difficult
[10:43] <Darkside> though yes, i wouldnt be sure if the eR is consistent across 'cheap' FR4
[10:43] <Darkside> and you probably need some other substrate
[10:44] <Darkside> sv3ora: have you looked at Toyo's helical filters?
[10:44] <Darkside> i think they made one that was suitable for 23cm
[10:44] <eroomde> does anyone know of a fab that does duroid that works in hobby-like ways we're used to?
[10:44] <Darkside> also not sure if its toyo that make them any more
[10:45] <eroomde> send the gerbers, get it back 2 weeks later, paypal to pay, non-silly cost etc
[10:45] <sv3ora> You mean Toko?
[10:45] <Darkside> yes
[10:45] <Darkside> i and i also mean temwell now
[10:45] <Darkside> since toko doesnt exist anymore according to google
[10:46] <sv3ora> I saw one http://croatia-microwave.blogspot.gr/2012/10/modification-toko-5hw-1150-45f-filter.html if this is the short of filters you are talking about, I do not hink it is suitable for more than a few 10s of mW input
[10:46] <Darkside> insertion loss on those filters is not brilliant though
[10:47] <sv3ora> I am going to feed 0.5W into the filter
[10:47] <Darkside> yes that too
[10:47] <Darkside> oh right
[10:48] <sv3ora> The copper tube filter is just 5cm long x 1.5cm diameter
[10:48] <sv3ora> for 1296MHz
[10:49] <sv3ora> Another design I have seen is this http://www.marwynandjohn.org.uk/GM8OTI/proj23cmBPF/proj23cmBPF.html small as well
[10:49] <sv3ora> a little bit larger than the copper tube one
[10:57] mactunes (~mactunes@47.73.103.176) joined #highaltitude.
[10:59] SushiKenBrown (~quassel@cmr-208-124-174-194.cr.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 246 seconds
[10:59] SushiKenBrown (~quassel@cmr-208-124-174-194.cr.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #highaltitude.
[11:02] akoko (~u@178-223-20-144.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs) joined #highaltitude.
[11:03] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-57 after 038 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-57
[11:11] <eroomde> it toys with us
[11:12] <eroomde> the little balloon that wouldn't [circumnavigate]
[11:16] <AndyEsser> heh
[11:19] <eroomde> AndyEsser: i have a think at about 8pm next sat
[11:19] <eroomde> does that work ok?
[11:19] <eroomde> thing*
[11:20] <AndyEsser> Yep that's absolutely fine
[11:20] <eroomde> grand
[11:20] <AndyEsser> We'll just see how the day goes, but I'll be out of your way by then and heading to bristol
[11:20] <eroomde> assuming you don't want to stay toooo late if it's a 3hr drive back
[11:20] <eroomde> oh you're going west instead
[11:20] <AndyEsser> I'm staying in Bristol afterwards with a friend, so it's not too bad a drive :)
[11:21] <AndyEsser> I want my scope :(
[11:21] <eroomde> eta?
[11:22] <AndyEsser> it was "a couple of weeks" from when I phoned them the day after I ordered
[11:22] <AndyEsser> which was... middle of last week I think
[11:22] <AndyEsser> so a while still
[11:22] <eroomde> oh well
[11:22] <eroomde> it'll be worth it
[11:22] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) joined #highaltitude.
[11:22] <AndyEsser> apparently I ordered just as it went to out-of-stock
[11:22] <eroomde> i can show you my scope when you come if you want
[11:22] <eroomde> but it might upset you
[11:23] <AndyEsser> Yea, I just need to get the timing code sorted on the AVR then that's pretty much all the bits prototyped
[11:23] <AndyEsser> can move to PCB design and production code and then get it all built
[11:23] <AndyEsser> eroomde: ha
[11:23] <eroomde> you can probably start the pcb design anyway
[11:23] <eroomde> if the only thing holding you back is a software issue
[11:24] <AndyEsser> True - and I have started a couple of times
[11:24] <AndyEsser> but Eagle has b0rked itself
[11:24] <AndyEsser> and I keep losing my temper with KiCad haha
[11:24] <AndyEsser> just need to sit down one evening and work through some tutorials or something and get it done
[11:24] <eroomde> yes
[11:29] <Vaizki> which scope did you order?
[11:29] <Vaizki> and yes don't touch those tek mso scopes, they will upset you..
[11:30] mactunes (~mactunes@47.73.103.176) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[11:31] mactunes (~mactunes@47.73.103.176) joined #highaltitude.
[11:31] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: the DS1054Z (I think)
[11:32] <AndyEsser> whichever one it was everyone recommended when I asked :)
[11:33] <Vaizki> ah yes definitely a lot of scope for the money
[11:33] <Vaizki> also the only bit of test equipment apart from DMMs that I've bought new... :)
[11:34] <Vaizki> oops I retract that.. I also bought a Saleae and LCR meter
[11:35] <fsphil> I have the old DS1052, and it's proved very handy
[11:35] <fsphil> 1054Z would be lovely
[11:35] <AndyEsser> I'm getting excited about "playing" with it :)
[11:35] <AndyEsser> heh
[11:36] <Vaizki> the benefit of having lots of test equipment is that you can test one with the others and compare all day!
[11:37] <AndyEsser> heh
[11:37] <AndyEsser> next big purchase then will be a good bench PSU
[11:37] <fsphil> definitly
[11:37] <fsphil> multi-channel
[11:37] <AndyEsser> fsphil: would want a minimum of 2
[11:37] <fsphil> yeah
[11:37] <AndyEsser> (2 channel... not 2 PSU)
[11:38] <Vaizki> actually the last thing I used my 1054Z for was to compare my GPSDO and siggen oscillator.. which were 0.004 Hz apart
[11:38] <AndyEsser> was using my kiboshed 12v mains PSU for my GPS testing over the weekend - worked really well :)
[11:38] <fsphil> I got a 3-channel and it's well used
[11:38] <fsphil> it's nice just knowing it's a reliable source
[11:38] <AndyEsser> Yea
[11:39] <Vaizki> I have one of those analog 3-channel ones with 2x 20V/5A and one fixed 5V output..
[11:39] <AndyEsser> I guess most modern PSU's have some sort of PC integration and you can plot current draw over time and stuff?
[11:39] <Vaizki> it's ok but a bit scary because there is no per-channel output disable
[11:39] <Vaizki> and also the analog knobs.. don't want to accidentally bump into them and blow a circuit
[11:39] <Vaizki> the cheap ones don't
[11:40] <fsphil> mine has the knobs, but it's very difficult to move them accidently
[11:41] <Vaizki> yea I have not managed to blow up anything yet but I always disconnect everything at the end of the day
[11:42] <Vaizki> and if you want logging/pc control then you will probably get a keypad and LOCK button as well
[11:43] <fsphil> my old agilent can be PC controlled
[11:43] <fsphil> newer one can't :)
[11:43] <fsphil> (non-agilent)
[11:43] <Vaizki> yea I also got a 6632B supply which is really really good but just one output
[11:44] <Vaizki> it's also a bit noisy
[11:44] <fsphil> they are
[11:44] <fsphil> quite a thump of them when you first switch them on
[11:44] <Vaizki> joys of linear
[11:47] <AndyEsser> eroomde: I assume you have some sort of radio receiver at yours, that could potentially be used to receive the signal from my NTX2b?
[11:48] <Vaizki> I'm sure he has fillings in his teeth that are tuned to 2m band
[11:48] <fsphil> after a while you can decode 434mhz by ear :)
[11:50] <AndyEsser> heh
[11:52] <Flutterbat> Vaizki: a fixed voltage psu with 1.8V 3.3V 5V etc. would be nice. but i havent found one yet
[11:53] <Flutterbat> one that produces these voltages efficiently, and isnt a powerhog like most lab psus
[11:54] <Vaizki> well lab psus are powerhogs because they are not switchmode supplies, they provide a very stable voltage and good current in fluctuating load conditions
[11:56] <Vaizki> just buy 3 of these and screw them into a hammond case? :) http://www.ebay.com/itm/LED-Display-LM2596-Module-DC-4V-40V-to1-5v-37V-3-3V-5V-12V-3A-Voltage-Regulator-/221821718477?hash=item33a59acfcd:g:W3oAAOSwjVVVnnc5
[11:56] <Vaizki> if you don't mind a bit of ripple etc
[11:57] <Vaizki> of course you need a stable DC source to drive them
[11:58] <Vaizki> I also have some of these for breadboarding http://www.ebay.com/itm/MB102-Breadboard-Power-Supply-Module-3-3V-5V-For-Arduino-Raspberry-Pi-Breadboard-/290959516498?hash=item43be89e352:g:sSQAAOSw~OdVd~iq
[11:59] <Vaizki> ignore raspberry and arduino in the title
[12:00] <fsphil> it would be super annoying if you could hear radio. VLF is really noisy
[12:00] <Vaizki> but if you get those ebay modules, be sure to test them with a DMM at least before use.. one of my MB102s had a short (badly soldered regulator) which put out V-in right out to +5V..
[12:01] <AndyEsser> nice!
[12:01] <AndyEsser> ha
[12:03] <Vaizki> also lab supplies have current control which is nice because you can set the max current draw to what you really expect to use. and a good supply will react fast enough to an accidental short circuit that it will not blow your components
[12:03] <Vaizki> or traces off the board
[12:04] <AndyEsser> it's been too long since I last blew something up :(
[12:04] <Vaizki> you can always stick caps in the mains outlet if nothing else is at hand
[12:05] <Vaizki> with those handy switches you have at each outlet in the uk and all...
[12:05] <AndyEsser> I need to review my cap usage actually
[12:05] <AndyEsser> suspect I'm not using the best values to smooth my regulators
[12:05] <adamgreig> just check the regulator datasheet
[12:05] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: that seems far too sensible :P
[12:05] <adamgreig> and otherwise do your decoupling at each component, not at the regs
[12:06] <AndyEsser> or both?
[12:06] <AndyEsser> :)
[12:06] <Vaizki> do as per datasheet at regulator
[12:06] <fsphil> I always put some before and after the regulator
[12:06] <Vaizki> and per ic as per ic datasheet ;)
[12:06] <AndyEsser> I need to build up my selection of Electrolytics, only have ceramics atm
[12:07] <Vaizki> you can buy a good selection of fake from ebay!
[12:07] <adamgreig> just don't use any electrolytics
[12:07] <adamgreig> more pain than they're worth unless you really need very high capacitances
[12:07] <AndyEsser> fair enough - is that their main benefit? better at high-F than ceramic?
[12:07] <AndyEsser> (and by better - I presume it's mainly just a physical size thing?)
[12:07] <adamgreig> and high voltage yes
[12:08] <adamgreig> you can't really get ceramics usefully above say 10u ish (in sensible sizes/voltages)
[12:08] <AndyEsser> ah ok - thanks
[12:08] <adamgreig> (someone is surely going to link to one now to prove me wrong but in general..)
[12:08] <adamgreig> electrolytics happily go up to thousands of uF or hundreds or thousands of volts etc etc
[12:08] <AndyEsser> nice
[12:08] <AndyEsser> doubt I'll be needing any of those for a while :P
[12:08] <adamgreig> so if you find yourself needing to fire a pyrotechnic from stored charge, or smoothing rectified mains to DC, or something like that, then fine....
[12:09] <adamgreig> but if you're decoupling a 3v3 regulator or a microchip or something, just stick with ceramics
[12:09] <AndyEsser> yea, I've got 5v and 3v3 regulators (and the 5v is only for the MAX232 atm until my TTL cable arrives)
[12:09] <adamgreig> and when using ceramics, try to stick with X5R or X7R dielectrics for bulk caps, and C0G/NP0 for small caps (around the pF range, e.g. crystal loading, RF circuits, etc)
[12:09] Action: AndyEsser scrambles for pen
[12:09] <adamgreig> they're different types of ceramics that have different prperties
[12:10] <adamgreig> wikipedia has a nice summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic_capacitor#Class_2_ceramic_capacitors
[12:10] <AndyEsser> ta muchly
[12:11] <adamgreig> ceramics are generally better: won't explode, won't leak, not polarised, much lower relationship between voltage and capacitance, don't get sad if held at the wrong voltage for long periods of time
[12:11] <adamgreig> have other problems like microphonics issues with some ceramics (where sound/vibration is converted to voltages)
[12:11] <AndyEsser> heh
[12:12] <adamgreig> you will probably also come across tantalum which is nice in some respects (smaller and more convenient than electroylics, also less likely to leak, but available in largeish capacitances)
[12:12] <fsphil> I noticed the antenna on a LF receiver doing that
[12:12] <adamgreig> however it's a conflict mineral and also prone to exploding (and also polarised)
[12:12] <fsphil> I was able to hear sound through it
[12:12] <adamgreig> these days you can get ceramics in almost anything you'd get a tant for, so avoid them and stick with ceramics
[12:12] <adamgreig> anyone know a good supplier of springs in the UK btw?
[12:13] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: cheers for all the info
[12:13] <adamgreig> np
[12:14] <Vaizki> I also need a spring here in finland.. preferably one that's not full of rain.. hrrr..
[12:14] <adamgreig> when/if you come to doing surface mount PCBs you'll find electrolytics a huge pain too
[12:14] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: touche
[12:14] <adamgreig> Vaizki: hot maybe even ;)
[12:14] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: Yea, the PCB for this tracker will be surface mount, so good to know I'm all good with ceramics :)
[12:14] <adamgreig> cool
[12:14] <AndyEsser> so overhearing some conversations in here, and reading around
[12:15] <AndyEsser> I understand there are numerous SMT 'categories', which I guess relates to size etc?
[12:15] <Vaizki> ooo andy's going smt.. :)
[12:15] <adamgreig> well
[12:15] <adamgreig> there are a lot of things
[12:15] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: of course there is... haha
[12:15] <adamgreig> for small smd passives, there's common sizes
[12:15] Action: AndyEsser wishes for the simple life
[12:15] <adamgreig> 0201, 0402, 0603, 0805, 1206
[12:15] <adamgreig> which is probably what you're thinking of
[12:15] <AndyEsser> Yes it is
[12:15] <adamgreig> they refer to the width and length of the part, in imperial
[12:15] <AndyEsser> oooo ok
[12:15] <adamgreig> so 0603 is 0.06" by 0.03"
[12:16] <AndyEsser> so an 0805 resitor will be the exact same physical size as an 0805 cap?
[12:16] <adamgreig> aka 60 mil by 30 mil (mil being the american for thou or 1/1000 inch)
[12:16] <AndyEsser> silly imperial
[12:16] <adamgreig> no, the same length and width
[12:16] <AndyEsser> height may vary
[12:16] <adamgreig> typically caps are taller, often square cross-section, while resistors tend to be flat
[12:16] <AndyEsser> gotcha
[12:16] <adamgreig> or "quite thin" anyway
[12:17] <AndyEsser> but from the POV of the PCB design, the footprint would be the same?
[12:17] <adamgreig> often. it depends.
[12:17] <adamgreig> so the solder on the footprint will form a heel with the component based on surface tension
[12:17] <adamgreig> you can imagine a very small pad would have a very tight angle
[12:17] <adamgreig> you often don't want the angle to be too tight, so for very tall parts you often want a slightly larger pad
[12:18] <adamgreig> https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3-blogs.mentor.com/tom-hausherr/files/2010/11/chip-solder-joint.png
[12:18] <AndyEsser> ah ok - so always best to use a footprint for that specific component (if available) on the assumption it'll have the appropriate pad size for the angle
[12:18] <AndyEsser> rather than just using a generic 0805 footprint
[12:18] <adamgreig> eh
[12:18] <adamgreig> in practice I just use the same size for resistors and capacitors
[12:18] <adamgreig> and make sure it's big enough for capacitors, then resistors are typically fine
[12:18] <AndyEsser> ok
[12:19] <adamgreig> there is something of a "standard size" for the foorprints for a given part
[12:19] <adamgreig> so ideally you just use that
[12:19] <adamgreig> and get on with life without having to worry about how it was derived - endlessly complicated and dull
[12:19] <AndyEsser> indeed
[12:19] <adamgreig> a mix of process questions, thermal issues, mechanical reliability, surface tension, solder compositions, bla bla bla
[12:20] <AndyEsser> ok, so I can use generic TQFP footprints (for appropriate pin counts) and a generic surface mount footprint for passives etc, and just not worry too much about the details?
[12:20] <adamgreig> fun to learn about one day maybe, when you wonder why sometimes your surface mount parts "tombstone"
[12:20] <AndyEsser> yera
[12:20] <AndyEsser> yea*
[12:20] <adamgreig> http://i.stack.imgur.com/AyP59.jpg
[12:20] <adamgreig> https://blog.adafruit.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/3235-Hires-TombstoneCloseup-Fina.jpg
[12:20] <adamgreig> yes (though be careful - TQFP comes in a range of different pitches (pin-to-pin spacing) and you need to get that right too)
[12:21] <AndyEsser> Yep - noticed that when I tried to start :)
[12:21] <adamgreig> so e.g. TQFP48 in 0.4mm pitch is a very different thing to TQFP48 in 0.5mm pitch, but they're both called "TQFP48"
[12:21] <AndyEsser> so basically... read the datasheet? :P
[12:21] <adamgreig> there's a better naming standard for these things which would be like QFP-50P500x500x75-48N
[12:21] <adamgreig> but most datasheets won't tell you that, so eh
[12:22] <AndyEsser> any recommendations for minimum trace width?
[12:22] <AndyEsser> I know the absolute minimum is defined mainly by the manufacturer and stuff - but is there a decent "sweet spot"?
[12:22] <adamgreig> (look up IPC-7351B if you're interested in the standard naming and dimensions etc)
[12:22] <adamgreig> eh
[12:22] <adamgreig> 0.2mm is alright
[12:22] <adamgreig> really depends a lot on your manufacturer and how much current you need to handle and stuff
[12:22] <AndyEsser> so with a 0.2mm trace, I should be able to fit that between the pins of a QFP package with a pitch of 0.5mm?
[12:22] <adamgreig> no
[12:23] <adamgreig> you won't fit a trace between the pins of a qfp package
[12:23] <AndyEsser> is the pitch from center of pin to center of pin?
[12:23] <adamgreig> yes
[12:23] <AndyEsser> ah ok
[12:23] <AndyEsser> ok, so will need to get creative :)
[12:23] <AndyEsser> thanks
[12:23] <adamgreig> that's what vias and double sided boards are for :P
[12:23] <adamgreig> for power traces maybe try to keep them 0.5mm or 0.8mm as much as possible
[12:23] <AndyEsser> true
[12:23] <AndyEsser> never done a double sided board before
[12:23] <adamgreig> if your pads are all like 0.3mm wide you could use that everywhere too
[12:23] <adamgreig> hah ok well that's a world of fun too
[12:24] <adamgreig> my advice is to make the bottom layer entirely a ground plane
[12:24] <AndyEsser> we only had support for single layer at school
[12:24] <adamgreig> and then use it as sparingly as possible for jumpers between signals on the top layer
[12:24] <AndyEsser> I was going to use the bottom layer for +v & 0v
[12:24] <AndyEsser> but you suggest just 0v?
[12:24] <adamgreig> you'll need to use it for signals inevitably
[12:24] <adamgreig> no point putting +v on it
[12:24] <AndyEsser> ok :)
[12:24] <adamgreig> just fill it with ground, so the entire bottom copper is a solid ground plane
[12:24] <adamgreig> and then as much as possible keep it that way
[12:25] <AndyEsser> well hopefully I can get started on the PCB design this week once I've got my 328p receiving the GPS signals from my chip
[12:25] <adamgreig> specifically you're trying to ensure current can always take the shortest route back
[12:25] <AndyEsser> and if eroomde doesn't mind - I might see if I can get an RF signal received :)
[12:25] <adamgreig> if you have any breaks in the ground plane, current will have to go around it, which causes problems in general
[12:25] <AndyEsser> when I go down this weekend
[12:25] <AndyEsser> yep
[12:25] <AndyEsser> gotcha
[12:25] <adamgreig> so yea, keep things on the bottom layer to the minimum you need to jump over/under other tracks
[12:27] <AndyEsser> ok, cheers :)
[12:28] <adamgreig> anyway once you start laying out and routing the pcb feel free to ask for opinions :P
[12:28] <AndyEsser> Yep will do - will almost certainly stick it up on gerber look before sending off anyway
[12:28] <AndyEsser> sadly not having pcb making facilities in house means it's not a quick fix if I mess it up
[12:28] <AndyEsser> like it used to be :(
[12:28] <adamgreig> just gotta get it right first time!
[12:29] <adamgreig> http://www.cusf.co.uk/wiki/pcb_checklist
[12:29] <AndyEsser> exactly
[12:30] <AndyEsser> ta
[12:31] <AndyEsser> sorry - got to go and deal with a "user"
[12:31] <AndyEsser> back in a bit
[12:31] <adamgreig> have fun
[12:31] LazyL_M0LEP (~irc-clien@41.215.89.46) joined #highaltitude.
[12:31] <Vaizki> maybe put in a few extra pads for unused pins on the 328p, extra pads for power supply section.. so you can bodge fix it if needed :D
[12:44] <AndyEsser> *sigh* I will never understand how people don't know their usernames despite logging in every day...
[12:45] <fsphil> not just my users then
[12:46] <AndyEsser> like, I know more recent users just have their icon they click on with the username stored... but ffs
[12:46] <AndyEsser> have the tiniest bit of observation and memory
[12:48] <AndyEsser> *sigh* Eagle doesn't work on my work PC either
[12:48] <AndyEsser> clearly I've done something wrong each time and can't fix it
[12:48] <adamgreig> kiicaad
[12:48] <AndyEsser> heh
[12:48] <Oddstr13> AndyEsser: what are you working on?
[12:49] <AndyEsser> Oddstr13: PCB for a flight data recorder/tracker
[12:49] <Oddstr13> nice
[12:50] <Oddstr13> I'm puzzling a little with making a UKHASnet board
[12:50] <Oddstr13> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4306267/ShareX/2016/01/2016-01-11_13-50-47.png
[12:53] <Vaizki> so what's the puzzle?
[12:53] <Vaizki> put a ground plane on the back and you have half your rats nest sorted :)
[12:53] <Oddstr13> probably, yea :P
[12:53] <Oddstr13> still not decided on placement completely tho
[12:54] <Oddstr13> and, I didn't find a SMA footprint in KiCad :/
[12:54] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: do you have any recommend tutorials for KiCad? or would you recommend just googling for something?
[12:55] <Oddstr13> AndyEsser: I've found that poking around works quite well ^^
[12:55] <adamgreig> Oddstr13: in general i would suggest you make all your own footprints anyway, especially sma is not difficult, but also https://github.com/adamgreig/agg-kicad/blob/master/agg.pretty/unchecked.pretty/SMA-142-0701-801.kicad_mod
[12:55] <adamgreig> AndyEsser: http://docs.kicad-pcb.org/en/getting_started_in_kicad.html looks good
[12:56] <Oddstr13> yea, I've allready made the rfm footprint
[12:56] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: cheers
[12:56] <Oddstr13> need to tweak it some more, add silkscreen for orientation and such
[12:56] <Vaizki> so where is the power input to the board?
[12:57] <Oddstr13> Vaizki: on the todo list in my head :3
[12:57] <Vaizki> :D
[12:57] <Oddstr13> 5V on the ICSP is currently the only input
[13:00] <Oddstr13> how do I make mounting holes?
[13:00] <AndyEsser> A drill :)
[13:00] <adamgreig> make a part for them
[13:01] <adamgreig> and just put a hole of your desired diameter as non-plated thru hole
[13:01] <adamgreig> then remember to put silkscreen or fab drawings on to indicate the diameter of clearance you need for e.g. a bolt head or washer
[13:01] <adamgreig> here's my mounting hole https://github.com/adamgreig/agg-kicad/blob/master/agg.pretty/M3_MOUNT.kicad_mod
[13:01] <adamgreig> or just a plain M3 hole https://github.com/adamgreig/agg-kicad/blob/master/agg.pretty/M3_HOLE.kicad_mod
[13:02] <Vaizki> eeep kicad is lisp?
[13:02] <adamgreig> no, but its footprints are s-expressions
[13:02] <adamgreig> (as are the PCB files)
[13:02] <adamgreig> means it's really nice to write your own scripts to generate/check/render/etc footprints
[13:02] <adamgreig> the mounting hole version has mask pulled away and smaller drill hits for locking washers
[13:02] <adamgreig> which you may or may not like
[13:03] <Vaizki> hmmh ok..
[13:03] <adamgreig> https://github.com/adamgreig/agg-kicad/blob/master/scripts/sexp.py has everything you need to parse and generate kicad footprint files
[13:04] <adamgreig> consequently i have scripts to generate all the standard footprints and connectors and all sorts
[13:04] <adamgreig> like here's all I need to get a standarf LQFP-64: https://github.com/adamgreig/agg-kicad/blob/master/scripts/icmod.py#L112-L122
[13:04] <Vaizki> but they could be just json as well.. so the sexp is just a syntax for nested lists?
[13:04] <adamgreig> or an 0402: https://github.com/adamgreig/agg-kicad/blob/master/scripts/chipmod.py#L47-L54
[13:04] <adamgreig> yes it's just a syntax for a data structure
[13:04] <adamgreig> so's anything really
[13:05] <Vaizki> that's 762 lines
[13:05] <Vaizki> the lqfp64
[13:05] <adamgreig> that file generates almost any type of dual or quad package
[13:05] <Vaizki> right ok
[13:05] <adamgreig> the lqfp64 requires 7 lines to define
[13:05] <adamgreig> (the highlighted bit)
[13:05] <Oddstr13> github plugin hates me :P
[13:05] <Oddstr13> or, your repo I guess ^^
[13:05] <adamgreig> Oddstr13: you can just save individual files
[13:06] <adamgreig> into your .pretty folder
[13:06] <Oddstr13> I'm lazy! :P
[13:06] <adamgreig> then download/clone the whole repo and point kicad at it :P
[13:06] <adamgreig> Vaizki: having written the rest of the file once I can add pretty much anything by just typing in numbers from the datasheet
[13:06] <adamgreig> and already have almost all the packages i've ever used to date
[13:07] <Vaizki> yea I get that now that I actually read it ;)
[13:07] <adamgreig> I have a similar thing for the schematic symbols where I just give it a list of pin names and numbers and it generates the symbol
[13:07] <adamgreig> plus includes datasheet, manufacturer order code, associated footprint, etc
[13:07] <adamgreig> which means i can also automatically generate a bom for farnell/rs/digikey/etc orders in their quick-paste format
[13:08] <Vaizki> Oddstr13, tip for you too, break out some unused pins on the 328p to a header on the board..
[13:08] <Vaizki> you can leave the header unsoldered until some day you realize you want a i2c sensor or something added..
[13:08] <Oddstr13> Vaizki: yea, was gona add surface pads, if space didn't allow for holes
[13:10] <Oddstr13> kinda aiming for a <5x5cm board
[13:10] <AndyEsser> Oddstr13: that's my plan - 328P, NTX2B, U-blox M8 GPS and connectors, all on a 50mm x 50mm board
[13:11] skagmo (skagmo@cassarossa.samfundet.no) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[13:12] <Oddstr13> found this website while browsing the other day; http://pcbshopper.com/
[13:12] <Oddstr13> nice for comparing prices
[13:14] <Vaizki> then again you would pay 20% more to get good service and a working board. .)
[13:16] <Oddstr13> not saying I would go exclusivly on price, but that website has a nice list of several alternatives
[13:17] <Oddstr13> Vaizki: who are you using for your boards?
[13:18] <AndyEsser> Ah yes, I remember why KiCad annoyed me now
[13:18] <Oddstr13> the zoom?
[13:18] <Oddstr13> >.<
[13:19] <AndyEsser> whenever I try to place a trace it complains about being too close to a pad and refuses to place
[13:19] <adamgreig> Oddstr13: you can change how the zoom works in settings, i usually turn off the auto centre thing
[13:19] <adamgreig> AndyEsser: you probably need to use thinner traces or change your clearance or both
[13:19] <Oddstr13> adamgreig: how, where?
[13:19] <Oddstr13> I was looking for such a setting earlier, but didn't find any
[13:19] <adamgreig> Oddstr13: preferences, general, untick "center and warp cursor on zoom"
[13:20] <adamgreig> AndyEsser: design rules > design rules > at the top of the net classes editor tab, "net classes": "default": "clearance": set to say 0.2mm
[13:20] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/Z8ktuLm
[13:20] <Oddstr13> missed the pan and zoom section, thanks :P
[13:20] <adamgreig> AndyEsser: oh
[13:20] <adamgreig> uhm
[13:20] <adamgreig> have you drawn a schematic?
[13:20] <AndyEsser> no
[13:20] <adamgreig> you will want to do that
[13:21] <AndyEsser> *sigh*
[13:21] <adamgreig> so
[13:21] <Oddstr13> oh, yea, start with the schematic :P
[13:21] <adamgreig> it's upset because basically it thinks you're putting copper that shouldn't be connected to pad 1 onto pad 1
[13:21] <AndyEsser> right
[13:21] <adamgreig> you can turn off the automatic drc by clicking the bug on the top of the left-side toolbar
[13:21] <adamgreig> and then do what you want
[13:21] <adamgreig> but don't do that
[13:21] <AndyEsser> aww
[13:21] <adamgreig> draw a schematic and then your pcb editor has all the right parts and all the right connections
[13:22] <AndyEsser> fine, I'll do the schematic when I get home tonight isntead
[13:22] <adamgreig> it is honestly so much better than trying to just lay out the pcb by itself :P
[13:22] <AndyEsser> but I enjoy laying out PCB :(
[13:22] <AndyEsser> brb
[13:22] <adamgreig> you get to do that too :P
[13:23] <Oddstr13> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4306267/ShareX/2016/01/UKHASnet_atmega328.pdf
[13:23] <Oddstr13> ^^
[13:24] <adamgreig> you can make the footprint label on the atmega invisible if you want btw Oddstr13
[13:24] <adamgreig> and you can change the text in the box on the lower right to have an actual title and date and so forth :P
[13:25] <adamgreig> (click Page Settings icon, 4th from left on the top toolbar)
[13:25] <craag> Oddstr13: Remember a pullup on SPI NSS so you can use the icsp with the rfm69 connected.
[13:25] <Oddstr13> craag: right, forgot that on this one, thanks :P
[13:25] <craag> eg. https://raw.githubusercontent.com/philcrump/UKHASnet-avr-sensor/master/V3/Schematic.png
[13:26] <Oddstr13> yea, I have that on OSb0
[13:26] <Oddstr13> used a 22k pull-up iirc
[13:27] <craag> anything 100R - 100K is probably fine
[13:27] <Oddstr13> I just used the same value as one of the other resistors allready on that board
[13:27] <craag> :)
[13:28] <Oddstr13> so, a 2.2k is probably fine here
[13:28] <Oddstr13> bit strong maybe
[13:28] <craag> means you'll waste an extra 1mA during rfm SPI transactions
[13:29] <Oddstr13> not too bad I guess
[13:29] <craag> that's not going to be much energy at all unless you're polling continuously
[13:30] <Oddstr13> DIO0 and DIO4 are hooked up to interrupt pins, so hopefully I can avoid all polling, and even sleep the avr while waiting for rx
[13:31] <craag> good plan :)
[13:33] <craag> That's the main thing missing from our ukhasnet lib right now
[13:33] <Oddstr13> adamgreig: thank you so much for that setting, zoom now works as expected >.<
[13:33] <adamgreig> yea! I don't know why it defaults to on
[13:33] <adamgreig> I guess some people prefer it
[13:34] <Oddstr13> having the cursor jump around on you is a big no.
[13:34] <Oddstr13> constantly having to realign the mose position is annoying
[13:37] <adamgreig> if you're not using the OpenGL editor mode by default you really should, by the way
[13:38] <Oddstr13> yea, found the default editor to be glitchy
[13:39] <Oddstr13> ptobably should put a diode on the +5V on the ICSP
[13:40] <AndyEsser> who's the best supplier of SMD stuff in the UK?
[13:40] <adamgreig> farnell or RS are the obvious choices
[13:40] <adamgreig> as ed has said you should really stop using maplin and get an account on farnell, they sell everything else you'd want too
[13:40] <Oddstr13> craag: when it comes to LDO regulator, I see that the MCP1700T is used in a few ukhasnet designs
[13:41] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: I have an account on farnell
[13:41] <AndyEsser> I use it for buying my ICs
[13:41] <adamgreig> great
[13:41] <adamgreig> use that then :P
[13:41] <AndyEsser> the main stuff I get from Maplin is bigger stuff (helping hands, etc) or stuff I forgot and need on the weekends (occasional headers/connectors etc
[13:41] <AndyEsser> )*
[13:41] <adamgreig> farnell sell that stuff too
[13:41] <adamgreig> farnell sell all sorts of weird and wonderful things, but certainly everything you might ever need in an electronics lab
[13:41] <AndyEsser> I'm sure - but Maplin is 5 minute walk away ;)
[13:42] <adamgreig> hah, fair I guess
[13:42] <AndyEsser> that's basically the only reason I use maplin - is the convenience of getting it in a few minutes of needing it :)
[13:42] <AndyEsser> for stuff that I've planned ahead I use Farnell or CPC
[13:42] <Oddstr13> any reason not to use the MCP1702 or 03?
[13:43] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: http://uk.farnell.com/walsin/wr08x1002ftl/res-thick-film-10k-1-150v-0805/dp/2498051?MER=en-me-sr-b-all
[13:43] <AndyEsser> those are the sorts of things, right?
[13:43] <AndyEsser> for a surface mount resistor (as an example)
[13:44] <adamgreig> yep
[13:44] <AndyEsser> cool
[13:45] <AndyEsser> ta muchly
[13:45] <adamgreig> standard resistor. note you've selected the part for a reel of 5000
[13:45] <adamgreig> which might be more than you want
[13:45] <AndyEsser> I saw :P
[13:45] <adamgreig> generally these are all sold in single or tens etc too
[13:45] <AndyEsser> it was just the first thing that showed up 0805 resistor :)
[13:45] <AndyEsser> and £7 for 5000 resistors... not too bad :)
[13:45] <adamgreig> all products > passive components > resistors - fixed value > chip SMD resistors
[13:45] <adamgreig> gets you the category with all the SMD resistors
[13:45] <AndyEsser> yep that's what I'm in now
[13:45] <adamgreig> likewise the same sort of thing for all the SMD ceramic capacitors (MLCC is multi-layered ceramic capacitor btw)
[13:45] <AndyEsser> cheers
[13:46] <AndyEsser> ta :)
[13:46] <adamgreig> do tick "in stock" and "exclude US stock" on the left hand side
[13:46] <adamgreig> else you'll get a bunch of stuff that's an extra £16 and 3 days delivery from the states, or just out of stock and no longer stocked
[13:46] <AndyEsser> *shudder*
[13:47] <AndyEsser> cheers
[13:47] <AndyEsser> well will put an order in once I've designed the PCB etc
[13:47] <AndyEsser> thanks
[13:47] <AndyEsser> then I have to work out SMD soldering
[13:47] <AndyEsser> yay...
[13:48] <Oddstr13> can't be much worse than perfboard soldering.
[13:49] <AndyEsser> right, off to a meeting back later
[13:49] <Oddstr13> cya
[13:50] Action: Oddstr13 really should make his own footprints for the parts he has in stock
[13:51] <adamgreig> if you use kicad - and draw a schematic - you can tell kicad the farnell part number for each part and then click a button and generate a list of what quantity of what part numbers you need
[13:51] <adamgreig> and paste it into farnell and add everything to your cart in one go
[13:51] <Oddstr13> I've seen the feature ^^ yet to test it tho
[13:51] MoALTz_ (~no@78-11-180-214.static.ip.netia.com.pl) joined #highaltitude.
[13:53] <Oddstr13> anyone know of a breakout for the BME280 with a simmilar form factor to the RFM69?
[13:54] MoALTz (~no@78-11-180-214.static.ip.netia.com.pl) left irc: Ping timeout: 246 seconds
[13:56] <Oddstr13> I guess I could add a header for either the adafruit or sparkfun breakout
[13:58] <Oddstr13> sparkfun one probably being the better option in this case, as it dosn't have a on-board regulator
[13:59] <sv3ora> Has anyone ever used this antenna http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GkkbPVMxcpY/TwWEGT1JurI/AAAAAAAAB0I/4CyGjr6YNWo/s1600/47-Vertical_Sleeve_Antenna_for_10m.jpg
[13:59] <Oddstr13> LGA isn't exactly hand-soldering friendly :P
[13:59] <sv3ora> It is essentially a dipole
[13:59] <adamgreig> sv3ora: yes
[14:00] <sv3ora> were you satisfied with the results?
[14:00] <adamgreig> Oddstr13: if you make the pads a little longer it's usually OKish to hand solder LGA
[14:00] <adamgreig> sv3ora: it was quite easily detuned but otherwise worked fairly well
[14:00] <adamgreig> no more so than a normal dipole though
[14:00] <Oddstr13> adamgreig: how? o.o
[14:00] <sv3ora> why is that? flexible construction?
[14:00] <adamgreig> sv3ora: yea that did not help
[14:00] <adamgreig> Oddstr13: do you have any pads underneath the part entirely, or only at the edges?
[14:01] <sv3ora> thanks
[14:02] <adamgreig> sv3ora: i've seen it called a bazooka dipole too
[14:02] <adamgreig> bear in mind for the 1/4 wavelength in the shield you need to use the velocity factor of the coax
[14:03] <Oddstr13> http://no.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Bosch-Sensortec/BME280/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsF1ODjcwEocB0teEbUEBlMe2ty%252bXJvNLw%3d part in question :P
[14:03] <adamgreig> Oddstr13: so yea it's not ideal. i'd reflow it ;) but
[14:03] <sv3ora> Yes! I was going to ask you this. It is specified in the bazooka dipole but not on any other design I see. They all assyme l/4 for both elements
[14:03] <adamgreig> if you made the pads stick out the sides of the part, and put solder on them first, then sit the part on top
[14:04] <adamgreig> you can heat up each pad with the iron in turn
[14:04] <adamgreig> and generally get it to solder to the part
[14:04] <adamgreig> sv3ora: it's lambda/4 but lambda changes depending on medium
[14:04] <Oddstr13> would be hard to verify good solder joints tho
[14:04] <adamgreig> Oddstr13: yea (you can usually tell visually when it solders though)
[14:05] <adamgreig> but you can see if it works :P
[14:05] <adamgreig> if you have space for a breakout board then just go for that
[14:05] <sv3ora> It is l/4 * velocity factor I think
[14:05] <Oddstr13> I'll just stick with the breakouts for now :P
[14:05] <adamgreig> sv3ora: well it's the free space wavelength times velocity factor to get the wavelength in the medium anyway :P
[14:05] <adamgreig> i can't find a photo of mine atm annoyingly
[14:05] <sv3ora> I am thinking of making the ground conductor by folding outwards the braid.I do not see why I do have to use extra tubing
[14:05] <adamgreig> it looked quite good on the vna
[14:06] <adamgreig> yea mine was just the braid
[14:06] <adamgreig> if you're doing it for HF it would be like, metres of braid, and a pain
[14:06] <adamgreig> for UHF just braid seems fine
[14:06] <sv3ora> No I am doing it for 23cm, so ut should be very easy
[14:07] <adamgreig> yea
[14:08] Laurenceb_ (~Laurence@host86-176-9-204.range86-176.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[14:08] <adamgreig> yea i can't find any photos of mine, sorry :( it's since been totally destroyed
[14:08] <adamgreig> accidental exposure to airflow at mach 3
[14:08] <adamgreig> but it did work reasonably well
[14:10] <sv3ora> I see no reason why this should not work, it is just a dipole. I have seen some plastic rings used as...chokes? at the far end of the ground element. However I can find no info on this.
[14:10] <Oddstr13> urgh, adafruit and SFE had to swap the 3.3v and gnd connections..
[14:10] <adamgreig> it's a very weird dipole because you're feeding it in through one end of it
[14:10] <adamgreig> a normal dipole either has no feeder at all in the model, or has one perfectly perpendicular
[14:11] <adamgreig> so you wouldn't necessarily expect this to work I think
[14:11] <adamgreig> I also put chokes on, a bit below the folded sleeve
[14:11] <adamgreig> dipoles (this included) need to be fed with a balanced signal
[14:11] <adamgreig> coax is unbalanced
[14:11] <craag> it actually models rather well
[14:11] <adamgreig> so without chokes the shield ends up hot
[14:12] <craag> as the inside of the braid-bent-back acts as a screen over the feeder
[14:12] <adamgreig> yea
[14:12] <craag> allowing it to be not-unbalanced
[14:12] <craag> and so the 1/4 wavelength of coax works as a hacky balun
[14:12] <adamgreig> not very well ime :P
[14:12] <craag> yeah it's in no way optimal
[14:13] <craag> but better than wiring 1 element to inner and other to outer without a choke :P
[14:14] <craag> also is the most common construction of 3dBi wifi router antennas
[14:14] <sv3ora> Yes, I have seen that a lot in pictures
[14:14] <adamgreig> interesting
[14:14] <adamgreig> did you see the antennas on this monster? http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/01/tp-link-unveils-worlds-first-802-11ad-wigig-router/
[14:14] <sv3ora> if wifi antennas
[14:14] <craag> http://g03.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1k1MiJXXXXXXjXFXXq6xXFXXXP/-Free-sample-2-4G-wifi-Embedded.jpg_350x350.jpg
[14:15] <sv3ora> A sales trick! I do not think you need that much space diversity!
[14:15] <craag> hah
[14:15] <craag> nah it's justified, 3 bands there, each with mimo
[14:15] <sv3ora> ah ok
[14:16] <adamgreig> sv3ora: it's doing 60GHz MU-MIMO
[14:16] <craag> and no dual-band antennas (phew)
[14:16] <sv3ora> ok I got it
[14:16] <adamgreig> and also 2.4GHz and 5GHz
[14:16] <adamgreig> 4600Mbps on 60GHz apparently
[14:17] <craag> up to 'several meters' range
[14:17] <adamgreig> line of sight, that is
[14:17] <sv3ora> If they made the enclosure metal, it could double as a heatsing for another project, maybe an audio amplifier :P
[14:17] <adamgreig> no through-wall or anything :P
[14:17] <craag> rather good for open plan offices though, ceiling mount ap, plenty of multipath, etc
[14:17] <sv3ora> I wouldn't feel comfortable having 60GHz in my room...
[14:18] <adamgreig> why? it's practically blocked by skin alone
[14:18] <sv3ora> I don't feel comfortable even with 900MHz
[14:18] <adamgreig> how about 2.4G? :P
[14:18] <sv3ora> well, I remember that you should not look inside a gunnplexer at 10GHz
[14:18] <sv3ora> imagine at 60
[14:18] <adamgreig> by that logic visible light would kill on impact
[14:19] <russss> is 60GHz license-free in the UK?
[14:19] <sv3ora> Out eyes are made to withstand light
[14:19] <Laurenceb_> boo PS-57 popped
[14:19] <sv3ora> not microwave radiation
[14:19] <Laurenceb_> very interesting tho
[14:20] <sv3ora> There are many products out there that we use and then after a few decades we sotty
[14:20] <adamgreig> yes russss
[14:20] <sv3ora> sorry
[14:20] <adamgreig> 61-61.5GHz
[14:20] <craag> Only 500 MHz of BW :(
[14:20] <adamgreig> aiui
[14:20] <craag> (:P)
[14:21] <Oddstr13> yea, right...
[14:21] <sv3ora> With appropriate siftware it could be used as a mm accuracy radar
[14:21] <craag> and hardware..
[14:22] <craag> although the mu-mimo hw is probably some step in that direction
[14:22] <Oddstr13> we need a RTL-SDR that works on 60GHz! :D
[14:22] <Laurenceb_> looks like perhaps PS-57 reached flight time limit of the envelope
[14:22] <adamgreig> as ever IR2030
[14:23] <adamgreig> "non-specific short-range devices"
[14:23] <adamgreig> may be used airborne
[14:23] <adamgreig> 100mW
[14:23] <sv3ora> I have started to make an sdr on 10GHz, see here http://www.qrp.gr/microwave/content/view/229/260/
[14:23] <sv3ora> but never finished it :P
[14:23] <russss> there's a whole load of stuff which uses ~70-80GHz for high-bandwidth point-to-point links. lots of CCTV using it now
[14:24] <sv3ora> and not only for that reason... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System
[14:24] <craag> We've got an SDR on 10GHz on the farnham websdr
[14:25] <craag> cheated with one of the PLL LNBs though
[14:25] <sv3ora> Yes, this is the HAM way :)
[14:25] <craag> I take offence at that! :P
[14:26] <craag> but yeah, from scratch, I get you
[14:26] <craag> We just wanted a simple rx, and LNB -> RTLSDR does that
[14:26] <sv3ora> Well do not be offended, I am a HAM too! :)
[14:27] <craag> Ah misunderstood
[14:27] <craag> thought you meant your way was the ham way
[14:27] <craag> never mind
[14:27] <craag> :)
[14:27] <sv3ora> Actually my favourite builds are my simplest ones that just work at a fraction of the cost
[14:27] <sv3ora> This is the HAM way!
[14:27] <craag> :D
[14:28] <sv3ora> HAMs always find solutions of how to short things out
[14:28] <sv3ora> even at no cost
[14:28] <craag> It was great when we hooked the $25 LNB up to $10 rtlsdr, pointed the open waveguide east over our shoulder, and picked up a beacon 40km away.
[14:28] <adamgreig> short things out, for sure
[14:29] <sv3ora> UK has a very good community of microwave enthusiasts! In Greece, things are not that well at all
[14:29] <craag> there was much reminiscing of the good ol' days when that would be the culmination of months of work and a rack of highly tuned kit.
[14:30] <craag> sorry to hear that sv3ora
[14:31] <sv3ora> You know craag, one thing that got me interested into microwaves was the waveguide. so simple, yet so complicated!
[14:31] <sv3ora> With a little fit of machinning one could dou great things at low cost
[14:31] <sv3ora> fit=bit
[14:31] <craag> heh yes
[14:31] <sv3ora> *away for a bit
[14:32] simulsys (5ced2efd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.237.46.253) joined #highaltitude.
[14:34] <simulsys> Hi, I am a newbie and would like to ask if it is necessary to obtain third party insurance,please? Does ukhas have a standard policy with an insurance company?
[14:34] <adamgreig> it's not necessary and ukhas does not
[14:35] <adamgreig> by "not necessary" I mean "not legally required" but you will probably be liable if anything bad happened (probably)
[14:35] <simulsys> That's fine, I will look into it a bit. Many thanks.
[14:37] <mfa298> I think there's a page on the wiki about insurance, although I'm not sure how complete it is.
[14:37] mactunes (~mactunes@47.73.103.176) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[14:37] <simulsys> OK I missed that, I shall look it up now....:-)
[14:38] mactunes (~mactunes@47.73.103.176) joined #highaltitude.
[14:39] <mfa298> In general I think those that need it due to School/Business may have been able to add it onto their existing policy, for the hobbiests it's very difficult to get something suitable
[14:43] YO9GJX (~YO9GJX@109.102.153.76) joined #highaltitude.
[14:44] <chris_99> i think a few people here have the rigol 1052e iirc, i just hacked mine, it can now go to 2ns on the timebase, but the model still says 1052e, does that seem ok?
[14:48] <simulsys> OK, thank you I shall contact my insurer.
[14:49] <sv3ora> chris_99 how much did you spent on that?
[14:49] <chris_99> i bought it a while ago, i think they're £200 now. Well i guess it seems to work
[14:49] DL1SGP (~felix64@dhcp20.signon3.dk.beevpn.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
[14:50] <Flutterbat> the new lowend rigol looks nice
[14:50] <chris_99> mmm
[14:50] <chris_99> i think they have 4 ch
[14:50] <chris_99> iirc
[14:50] <Flutterbat> yes, thats the one i mean. and a better display than the 1052
[14:50] <chris_99> mmm
[14:51] <sv3ora> Why is the display so important? I got my HP 54520A for 150 Euros from ebay
[14:51] DL1SGP (~felix64@dhcp18.signon4.dk.beevpn.com) joined #highaltitude.
[14:51] <sv3ora> And this is a 500MHZ 2ch DSO
[14:51] <Flutterbat> sv3ora: digital? how many samples?
[14:52] <sv3ora> 1GSa/s
[14:52] <sv3ora> DSO yes
[14:53] <sv3ora> I would look on used good quality stuff for the lab
[14:53] <Flutterbat> sv3ora: per channel?
[14:53] <sv3ora> It is better than buying new but crap
[14:53] <Flutterbat> well i wouldnt call it crap based on the stats. no idea how the interface is though
[14:53] <sv3ora> Ok fair.
[14:54] <sv3ora> fair is a better word
[14:54] <sv3ora> Lab equipment is expensive. But I would go for HP TEK or other well known brands
[14:54] <Flutterbat> used yeah
[14:54] <sv3ora> Used in good condition, rather than looking for nice screent
[14:54] <Flutterbat> new, no way
[14:55] <gonzo_nb> getting a tqfp to tombstone must take some doing!
[14:55] <sv3ora> My next buy will be a fluke multimeter, when the money is enough
[14:55] israelzuniga (~israel@187.172.4.36) joined #highaltitude.
[14:55] <gonzo_nb> ignote that, chat window was on a page from weeks ago!
[14:56] <sv3ora> Every time I have spent less on a chinese lab equipment I regret it! every time!
[14:56] <Flutterbat> le croy & co still dominate the highend market, and that for a good reason. But sub 10kEUR i would probably opt for Rigol or something similar.
[14:56] <sv3ora> 50MHz is just not enough!
[14:56] <sv3ora> if you do RF work
[14:57] <Flutterbat> i mean, le croy doesnt even build or design the low end units anymore, they are rebranded china units
[14:57] <sv3ora> I do not know, you may be right
[14:57] <Flutterbat> no its 100% the case. they dont even make a secret out of it
[14:58] <sv3ora> So they are all made in China inside?
[14:58] <Flutterbat> teks mixed signal oscilloscope is a nice thing though, and something that sets them apart from the china stuff
[14:58] <Flutterbat> sv3ora: you can get the same unit with a different brand label. its identical
[14:59] <sv3ora> Well, the good old HP48-GX is Taiwan made. But with HP standards ans final inspection.
[14:59] <sv3ora> So I am sceptical about china made products
[14:59] <sv3ora> only if they are of unknown companies
[14:59] <Flutterbat> i think its called le croy wave ace. you can get the same untit branded as Atten ....
[15:00] <sv3ora> See what I mean Flutterbat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaIuSnODbOM
[15:01] <sv3ora> HP or TEK would NEVER use this crappy PSU
[15:01] <sv3ora> as far as I am aware off
[15:01] <sv3ora> of
[15:01] <Flutterbat> sv3ora: cant youtube atm. what product is the video about?
[15:02] <sv3ora> e croy wave ace
[15:02] simulsys (5ced2efd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.237.46.253) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[15:02] <sv3ora> It uses a crappy Chinese standard SMPSU
[15:02] <sv3ora> Probably it will fail at some time
[15:02] <Flutterbat> do you think le croy is worse than tek or hp?
[15:02] <Flutterbat> if they do it, i wouldnt trust tek or hp either tbh
[15:03] <sv3ora> Well see it this way: TEK and HP are leaders, they invented things on their machines. Others just copy
[15:03] <Flutterbat> but imho, what matters is: it doesnt burn down your house. meets the claimed precision. lasts decently long. If they can pull that off with that crappy psu, then i dont really care
[15:04] <sv3ora> My experience with SMPSUs from China is always BAD
[15:04] <Flutterbat> sv3ora: le croy builds insane stuff. im talking 20channel 100Ghz stuff
[15:04] <sv3ora> I do not see quality construction on this specific one
[15:04] <AndyEsser> o0o scope is getting dispatched soon :) hopefully have it this week
[15:05] <sv3ora> maybe the higher cost models do just fine
[15:05] <Flutterbat> sv3ora: because they outsourced the lowbudget market to china
[15:05] <sv3ora> Ok fair enoigh
[15:06] <Flutterbat> sv3ora: the high end models are insane. theres a le croy + the signal path video about their highend oscilloscope. they tear it down, explain the process etc. looks like magic in there :D
[15:06] <Flutterbat> the signal path being a youtube channel
[15:06] <sv3ora> The point remains, which scope should one buy? a cheap new one or an expensive used one at a much lower price?
[15:06] <sv3ora> Which way you would go?
[15:06] <adamgreig> frankly, a cheap new rigol
[15:07] <adamgreig> certainly first
[15:07] <Flutterbat> sv3ora: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3w_EWgGQuk
[15:07] <adamgreig> as always "it depends", right? maybe you _need_ the specific specification that you can only get in your price range by buying a used HP
[15:07] <Flutterbat> that should be the video in case you are interested
[15:07] <adamgreig> but for a general purpose scope, the new rigols are really good
[15:08] <sv3ora> look at the PCB quality (and quantity) at around 28:00
[15:08] <SpeedEvil> Used quality scopes are almost always of higher price than more-or-less equivalent chinese scopes
[15:09] <sv3ora> Yes they do
[15:09] <sv3ora> and there is always a reason for that.
[15:11] <sv3ora> Just buy the best you can afford. This is the rule
[15:11] <sv3ora> But do not spend on bad quality ones
[15:11] <sv3ora> At least this is what my experience says
[15:11] <Flutterbat> sv3ora: rigol build quality looks nice, from what i can tell. they do or did pull some questionable stuff like overclocking ADC Chips, but if it works...why not
[15:12] <sv3ora> Oups time to go home! I am sorry to leave!
[15:15] skagmo (skagmo@cassarossa.samfundet.no) joined #highaltitude.
[15:20] mactunes (~mactunes@47.73.103.176) left irc: Quit: Leaving...
[15:27] stheory (~nic@101.223.221.229) joined #highaltitude.
[15:39] stheory (~nic@101.223.221.229) left irc: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
[15:40] stheory (~nic@101.223.221.229) joined #highaltitude.
[15:47] skagmo (skagmo@cassarossa.samfundet.no) left irc: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
[15:50] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[15:54] skagmo (skagmo@cassarossa.samfundet.no) joined #highaltitude.
[15:56] Action: SpacenearUS got confused... send help
[15:57] Action: fsphil sends pancakes
[15:57] Action: AndyEsser sends muffins
[15:57] <craag> Grief over ps-57. comfort food should fix it.
[15:57] <AndyEsser> Has PS-57 finally bitten the bullet?
[15:57] Action: craag sends cookies
[15:57] <fsphil> aww
[15:57] Action: SpacenearUS got confused... send help
[15:57] Action: AndyEsser intercepts the cookies
[15:57] Action: AndyEsser noms the cookies
[15:57] <fsphil> last altitude was 1392m
[15:58] <fsphil> the middle of the indian ocean is a pretty impressive landing site
[15:58] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) joined #highaltitude.
[15:58] <AndyEsser> fsphil: it's on the hunt for that missing plane
[15:58] Action: SpacenearUS got confused... send help
[15:58] Action: AndyEsser pokes SpacenearUS
[15:59] Action: SpacenearUS got confused... send help
[15:59] <craag> lz1dev forgot to give it it's meds this morning
[15:59] <fsphil> this is why I'm not bothered by robots taking over
[16:00] <craag> lol
[16:00] <AndyEsser> fsphil: hehe
[16:01] <Kryczek> what if they have already taken over and they're just pretending to be stupid? :p
[16:01] <fsphil> only a robot would say that
[16:01] <craag> then they're rather good actors :P
[16:01] <fsphil> GET HIM
[16:01] <Kryczek> "look at me I'm a stupid robot! Beep boop derp"
[16:02] <Kryczek> that would actually steal the show at CES
[16:02] <craag> Huh, I only coded him to say "Hello World"..
[16:02] Action: craag resets Kryczek
[16:02] <fsphil> if a robot knows it's stupid, is it really stupid?
[16:02] <Kryczek> :D
[16:02] Action: SpacenearUS got confused... send help
[16:03] <UpuWork> .flights
[16:03] <SpacenearUS> 03UpuWork: There are no flights currently :(
[16:03] <fsphil> gosh, what if the people looking for that flight find PS-57
[16:03] <AndyEsser> Are they still looking?
[16:04] <Kryczek> UpuWork: oh hi! Do you know by any chance of a case that fits the Raspberry Pi B+ with your GPS shield attached? :)
[16:04] <fsphil> I think so, but stopping soon
[16:04] Action: SpacenearUS got confused... send help
[16:04] <fsphil> but I think it was an area closer to australia
[16:05] Action: AndyEsser blocks SpacenearUS for spamming
[16:05] <Kryczek> SpacenearUS: help
[16:05] <AndyEsser> hehe
[16:05] <Kryczek> =)
[16:13] <UpuWork> Kryczek yeah the one I sell :)
[16:13] <UpuWork> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/image/cache/data/dogbone-500x500.jpg
[16:14] <UpuWork> thought I know people have had sucess with a drill
[16:15] <Kryczek> thanks :)
[16:15] <UpuWork> I think it fits i that official Raspberry Pi Case if you drill the antenna hole
[16:16] <daveake> s/drill/cut with snips
[16:17] <daveake> easier
[16:19] <fsphil> melt with soldering iron
[16:19] <fsphil> what could go wrong
[16:22] <AndyEsser> fsphil: use the Sun and a magnifying glass
[16:23] <gonzo_nb> laser
[16:23] <kokey> put it in the microwave
[16:23] <gonzo_nb> shaped charge
[16:24] <fsphil> place it in the CERN ring
[16:24] <fsphil> this may be getting silly now
[16:24] <AndyEsser> nonsense
[16:24] <AndyEsser> it's all for science
[16:24] <kokey> blendtech
[16:24] <AndyEsser> science is never nonsense
[16:24] <gonzo_nb> I've not even satred getting silly yet
[16:24] <Kryczek> attach another Raspberry Pi to a weather balloon and use that to nuke the first one from orbit
[16:24] <daveake> use a laser
[16:24] <AndyEsser> I'd be amused to see the balloon that can carry even the smallest nuclear payload :)
[16:24] <kokey> attach a hydrogen balloon to it, and use a bunsen burner
[16:25] <mattbrejza> dremel
[16:25] <gonzo_nb> that's ptob the most dangerous!
[16:25] <kokey> that's covered by the ukhas insurance, right?
[16:25] <fsphil> I had a dremel go on fire
[16:25] <daveake> a real dremel?
[16:25] <gonzo_nb> I had one go in my hand
[16:25] <fsphil> yeah
[16:25] <daveake> blimey
[16:26] <daveake> I just have a maplin thing
[16:27] <fsphil> I had cut a hole in some thin plywood and was using it to smooth it out a bit, and smoke started coming out of it
[16:27] <fsphil> could see it glowing red through the vent holes
[16:27] <gonzo_nb> so you carried on?
[16:28] <kokey> when I was in the nazi scouts, there was some kind of task to start a camp fire in a creative way
[16:28] <fsphil> decided to disconnect the lithium battery at that point
[16:28] <gonzo_nb> I had a perssure washer that did similar, so I just out it in the modle of the garden on an extension lead and let it finish itself off
[16:28] <kokey> (nazi scouts being apartheid era version of the scouts)
[16:29] <daveake> Ray Mears has much to learn
[16:29] <fsphil> who needs two sticks to start a fire
[16:29] <gonzo_nb> the potasium pernamgenate and sugar is a good one
[16:29] <gonzo_nb> slow to go and stinks
[16:29] <kokey> so we started a fire with a long rope soaked in methanol, leading to a bonfire with a balloon inside it fill with argon
[16:29] <daveake> just remove the lipos from your torch and use those
[16:30] <daveake> They're not all called "startfire" for nothing
[16:30] <fsphil> surefire, from banggood
[16:30] <fsphil> posted by TNT
[16:30] <kokey> argon gas balloon explosion looked like the sun was rising
[16:30] <gonzo_nb> rubbing two lipo's together?
[16:31] <gonzo_nb> I though argon was inert
[16:31] <fsphil> charge a 2.5v supercap with a 5v panel
[16:31] <fsphil> could take a while
[16:31] <gonzo_nb> we used to put tants inside model tanks/cars etc and set up a battle scene, as kids
[16:32] <gonzo_nb> but being in the unsafe-era, we would touch them off with the mains
[16:33] <gonzo_nb> a bit of wood with nains on and the wires to the modles twisted around, Then brush the live along
[16:33] <Kryczek> kokey: isn't argon supposed to extinguish fire?/
[16:35] <kokey> yeah sorry it was mosty oxygen now that I've translated, oxygen/argon mix
[16:36] <kokey> good thing it contained argon, it would have ended much worse than throwing a few aerosol cans into the fire
[16:38] <kokey> probably why the adults supervising thought it was a fine idea
[16:38] <kokey> until it exploded
[16:48] vic_ (~vic@72-239-8-237.res.bhn.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
[16:49] stheory (~nic@101.223.221.229) left irc: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
[16:50] <gonzo_nb> I've floated little h2 filled balloons into the fire. but pure h2 is not that imprressive
[16:51] <nick_> Pure oxygen is no joke.
[16:52] vic_ (~vic@72-239-8-237.res.bhn.net) joined #highaltitude.
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> Large hydrogen ones aren't impressive either
[16:53] <AndyEsser> You need a good mix
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> you basically get a ~1s fireball about the diameter of the balloon, and latex on fire thrown around
[16:54] <AndyEsser> SpeedEvil: that probably looks quite cool with something like a 1000FPS camera
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> Hydrogen is unimpressive burning
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> it's almost invisible
[16:54] Nick change: MoALTz_ -> MoALTz
[16:55] <AndyEsser> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOTgeeTB_kA
[16:55] <AndyEsser> :)
[16:56] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQvpK9cl0No - and in the HAB context
[16:57] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BARC - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BARC
[16:58] <craag> It's 2016, BARC have checksums and I don't even have my flying car yet!?
[16:59] ipdove (~ipdove@interclub.plus.com) left irc: Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de
[17:00] <SM0ULC-Reb> :)
[17:00] <AndyEsser> craag: it's called a helicopter
[17:02] stheory (~nic@101.223.116.219) joined #highaltitude.
[17:05] <SpeedEvil> craag: http://www.ehang.com/ehang184/specs/
[17:05] <SpeedEvil> I am not sure what you'd need to fly that in the UK.
[17:05] <eroomde> can we not link to that stupid thing anymore
[17:05] <SpeedEvil> I think it's a multirotor helicopter
[17:06] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[17:06] <SpeedEvil> (neglecting the fact that it is a questionably functional in all aspects thing.
[17:09] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) joined #highaltitude.
[17:10] <craag> SpeedEvil: Last time I checked, it wasn't *my* flying car :P
[17:11] <SpeedEvil> See the above balloon, fill with hydrogen and oxygen, place under car.
[17:12] <SpeedEvil> Doing a tiny bit of googling indicates that without major legal changes, the chances of getting the ehang thing flying in the UK are comedic, and would involve a test pilot, and certifying the aircraft as airworthy, as well as personal helicopter lessons, and having to prove it's still OK every year, at your great expense.
[17:14] <SpeedEvil> http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/498423-flying-experimental-helicopter-uk.html
[17:19] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03DM3FB after 032 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DM3FB
[17:32] Lemml (~andreas@82.100.246.18) joined #highaltitude.
[17:34] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[17:35] xfce (~xfce@cpe-85-10-26-137.dynamic.amis.net) joined #highaltitude.
[17:35] Nick change: xfce -> Guest57935
[17:42] stheory (~nic@101.223.116.219) left irc: Ping timeout: 250 seconds
[17:43] <RealBorg> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5JgnMJzCtQ
[17:43] <RealBorg> looks like the predecessor of ehang184
[17:44] <RealBorg> eroomde, did you say small props were inefficient?
[17:45] <eroomde> compared to a bigger slower one of the same thrust, yes
[17:47] <RealBorg> seems to be outweighed by saving the weight of the gear
[17:48] <eroomde> how much would a single-prop motor and mechanism and rotor weigh for doing ehang like a conventional helicopter?
[17:49] israelzuniga (~israel@187.172.4.36) left irc: Quit: israelzuniga
[18:02] <SpeedEvil> Small motors are quite good.
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robinson_R22
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> This is - not quite - in the same weight class, but it's not far off
[18:03] <eroomde> RealBorg: you haven't answered
[18:03] <eroomde> presumably you worked it out because you just told me their way was lighter
[18:03] <RealBorg> eroomde, I honestly don't know
[18:03] <eroomde> no
[18:04] <eroomde> i know
[18:04] <eroomde> you never do
[18:04] <eroomde> yet you still speak
[18:04] <eroomde> you should really not do that
[18:04] <RealBorg> but I assume the have reason to build a quad
[18:04] <SpeedEvil> RealBorg: yes
[18:04] <SpeedEvil> RealBorg: they have experience in quads
[18:05] <RealBorg> and i noticed that model helicopters are much harder to fly and need bigger batteries than quads
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> that's largely a control artifact
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> they are in principle more efficient
[18:07] <RealBorg> i wonder about that
[18:07] <Laurenceb_> is someone talking about high altitude quadcopters?
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> high altitude quads are far more interesting
[18:08] <SpeedEvil> Though properly high altitude ones (20-30km) are probably not possible to get up there under their own power, at least electrically
[18:08] <RealBorg> they would need really big props
[18:08] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[18:09] <RealBorg> possibly supersonic if that can be done
[18:09] <SpeedEvil> They don't need supersonic.
[18:09] <RealBorg> speed of sound is low at altitude
[18:10] <eroomde> what speed is it RealBorg? at 30km. just a rough figure is fine
[18:10] <SpeedEvil> But it does need to be quite fast and light, and murderously power inefficient compared to ground-based quads
[18:10] <SpeedEvil> Indeed - it's not much slower. 300m/s?
[18:10] <RealBorg> guessing 280m/s
[18:11] <SpeedEvil> Numbers here can be misleading, simple extrapolations of ground based designs don't work at all.
[18:11] <SpeedEvil> http://quadcopteronmars.org/
[18:12] <RealBorg> and it is: 294.9m/s
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> http://www.esa.int/spaceinvideos/Videos/2014/07/Dropship_offers_safe_landings_for_Mars_rovers
[18:13] <RealBorg> funny vid, i am almost intrigued to put my mini quad in the vacuum chamber ;)
[18:14] <eroomde> so that's only a bit over 10% lower than at sea level
[18:14] <RealBorg> but i guess the lipo would blow
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> RealBorg: ...
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> RealBorg: LiPo work fine at altitude from reports.
[18:15] <RealBorg> eroomde, yes, but from vacuum technology I know that due to the thin atmosphere you will need the props spinning very fast
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> Is there concern that they may 'puff' easily - yes. But they can work.
[18:15] <RealBorg> turbomolecular pumps use up to 100krpm
[18:16] <SpeedEvil> If you could find lightweight large diameter props to fit an existing quad, and space the motors with lightweight arms, in principle it may sort-of-work if the thing had enough performance margin
[18:16] <SpeedEvil> the control systems will break.
[18:16] <RealBorg> SpeedEvil, "pressurized" 18650 and the like or the foil wrapped ones?
[18:16] <SpeedEvil> foil wrapped.
[18:17] <SpeedEvil> 18650s will work. (but you don't want to use them, they are terrible weight-wise)
[18:17] DavidUK (6d9334e3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.147.52.227) joined #highaltitude.
[18:18] <DavidUK> Hello - anyone about?
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> yes
[18:18] <DavidUK> Hi SpeedEvil - just a quick question
[18:18] <DavidUK> I'm looking into HAB
[18:18] <DavidUK> And going to use an Arduino
[18:19] <DavidUK> But, looking at the different altitude sensors - what can give me an accurate reading over 10000ft?
[18:19] <Oddstr13> GPS
[18:19] <mfa298> use a gps module,
[18:19] <DavidUK> Will GPS top out at 60000ft?
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> DavidUK: not if you use the right one.
[18:20] <mfa298> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=59_60
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> It's 60000ft AND 1000kg
[18:20] <DavidUK> good answers!
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> 1000kt
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> And the above store is good
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> That one has been tested, and is good
[18:20] <mfa298> thats a variety of gps breakout boards that are well tested for HAB
[18:20] <DavidUK> would you add a barometic pressure sensor also - and double up for the readings? or not bother?
[18:21] <eroomde> baro is useless
[18:21] <eroomde> record it for interest
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=68 - is the turnkey solution
[18:21] <eroomde> don't base any altitude decision logic on it
[18:21] <mfa298> that store also sells the NTX2B radio modules that are good for sending telemetry back
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> Baro is useful for low altitude.
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> There are no commercially suitable inexpensive pressure sensors in the useful range for high altitude pressures
[18:21] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) joined #highaltitude.
[18:21] <DavidUK> i wasn't planning on a radio module at all, just storing data on an SD card and waiting to get it back
[18:21] <Oddstr13> I would add a BME280, for science!
[18:22] <DavidUK> yeah, i've looked at the 280
[18:22] <daveake> You might wait a long time to get it back without radio
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> DavidUK: Do not assume that will work at all. GSM coverage next to the ground is terrible, and it may fall through GSM coverage in 30s, and not get lock.
[18:22] <eroomde> i think anyone here who has launched anything will strongly, strongly, strongly suggest having radio telemetry throughout the entire flight
[18:22] <mfa298> radio link is good as it give you live tracking of the flight. Getting it back without that tracking isn't always that good
[18:22] <eroomde> there is a night-and-day difference in mission success rate between those who have radio throughout and those who use a gsm modem on the ground
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> Phone towers point their antennas horizontally with very tight beams.
[18:23] <DavidUK> i was going to use a GPS spot device for locating it? but you suggest radio?
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> Range once you get above the expected lare bad.
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> DavidUK: you mean 'find me spot' or similar?
[18:23] <eroomde> the reason this channel exists is really to proselytise the radio way of doing hab
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> that's better - but only if you can guarantee it's going to come down facing up
[18:23] <mfa298> Spot is better than GSM, but radio is generally better
[18:23] <eroomde> very very strongly recommended radio over spot
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> Quite
[18:23] <eroomde> we have a lot of spotters here
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> 'better' over GSM - NOT over radio
[18:23] <DavidUK> hmmm, might have to do a re-think then
[18:24] <eroomde> and either their first flight is radio and they don't bother with spot
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> The additional cost once you have an arduino is the cost only of the radio module
[18:24] <DavidUK> radio looks more complex, and i was going with an easy option
[18:24] <eroomde> or they stick with spot for their first flight and on the back of that switch to radio for the 2nd
[18:24] <eroomde> assuming they stick around
[18:24] <eroomde> i say 'a lot', it's still probably 90/10 split between radio and spot
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> DavidUK: there are lots of project pages on how they did radio on arduino.
[18:25] <SpeedEvil> Primarily because a SPOT can easily cost the same as the whole payload
[18:25] <SpeedEvil> while not being as good
[18:25] <DavidUK> wow - okay. I've looked at radio and getting live data - but obviously more complex.
[18:25] <eroomde> if you just want to do one flight, radio might not be break-even once you factor ground equipment, to be fair
[18:25] <DavidUK> Spot devices are costly i admit.
[18:26] <daveake> And you're risking losing it
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> Well, it depends where you are - in some places it's plausible to see if someone else is picking up your signal
[18:26] <daveake> With radio the risk is much lower
[18:26] <DavidUK> yup - losing it is a factor, granted
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> plus, for 'local' radio, you can in principle use a 10 quid USB stick
[18:26] <daveake> plus the expense is the ground equipment, which you don't lose
[18:26] <eroomde> you also get tens of people here tracking your payloads too, if you use radio
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> This will have bad range.
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> But ^
[18:27] <DavidUK> if i did use a ratio unit, is the cost in the ground equipment and antenna etc etc?
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> largely, yes.
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> If you do it properly.
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> You can get a bad, short-range radio for about 10 quid all-in.
[18:27] <eroomde> the radio on the paylod is a sort of £10 affair
[18:27] <DavidUK> i read the USB devices are shocking (or can be)
[18:27] <eroomde> peanuts compared to spot
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> DavidUK: they are, but if you're picking up at 5km, not 500km, you have a 10000 times stronger signal
[18:28] <eroomde> just a basic transmitter module that uses the power and frequency slots provided for things like garage door openers
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> (neglecting stuff)
[18:28] <eroomde> the cheapest usb software radios are quite bad
[18:28] <eroomde> but some of the very best software radios are usb too
[18:28] <mfa298> depending on where you are you might find someone that can lend you some of the ground equipment for the actual flight.
[18:29] <SpeedEvil> DavidUK: I forget - where did you say you were?
[18:29] <eroomde> you could spend £10 of a 'shit' rtl-sdr which will work totally fine for development in your bench
[18:29] <DavidUK> i don't know anyone else who has attempted this - and it's easy days for my project. Lancashire - Lancaster
[18:29] <eroomde> and £10 for the ntx2 transmitter for the payload
[18:29] <eroomde> and develop it all at home and check it works
[18:29] <eroomde> then you might want something more sensitive than the 'shit' rtl-sdr for listening at flight ranges
[18:30] <SpeedEvil> Also, you can do a test launch with a party balloon that won't get to more than a kilometer
[18:30] <DavidUK> and ball park, what's a non-shit rtl-sdr going to be? something that will actually do the job?
[18:31] <eroomde> well, a great improvement to the rtl-sdr, which a lot of people use, is a combined pre-amp and filter for the rtl-sdr
[18:31] <SpeedEvil> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=72_80&product_id=136 ^
[18:31] <eroomde> so what that is is a module you insert between rtl-sdr and its antenna. the module has a very good filter to get rid of all but the freuqnecies of interest, which it then amplifies
[18:31] <SpeedEvil> 434Mhz "HABAmp" SAW Filter & Preamp For Dongles
[18:31] <eroomde> yes the 'habamp'
[18:32] <eroomde> with that setup (habamp and rtl-sdr) you can also practice listening to the multitude of other UK and some european balloon flights
[18:32] <eroomde> which is a very useful skill for your own one when you come to launch
[18:32] <DavidUK> right, i get you guys (i think). I'm going to have to re-think my plan.
[18:32] <Oddstr13> https://hakshop.myshopify.com/collections/wireless-gear/products/software-defined-radio-kit-rtl-sdr
[18:32] <Chimpusmaximus> my first flight was done with a 10 pound sdr and cheap antenna. Did have a hab amp but managed to track a pits at 300 baud no isses.
[18:33] <eroomde> pits is 'pi in the sky' - an off-the-shelf flight computer that sits on a raspberry pi if you don't want to make your own
[18:33] <eroomde> but making your own is *way* more fun
[18:33] <mfa298> a lot of people have moved towards the airspy as a better USB dongle rather than the cheap $10 ones, but I think that's around £150 (for the airspy)
[18:33] <eroomde> yes, if you get The Bug then you might want to consider an airspy
[18:33] <eroomde> you can listen to all sorts with thats
[18:33] <DavidUK> what are your thoughts on the pits - i was just typing that! isn't that an all-in-one unit?
[18:33] <eroomde> satellites, balloons, tv, lots of stuff
[18:34] <eroomde> my thoughts are
[18:34] <daveake> yeah don't buy a pits
[18:34] <daveake> make something yourself
[18:34] <Chimpusmaximus> hehe
[18:34] <eroomde> we've been doing this for 10 years in the uk. for the great majority of that time, everyone had no choice but to build their own flight computer
[18:34] <daveake> p.s. I'm s/w dev for pits
[18:34] <eroomde> and no one had a problem doing that
[18:34] <DavidUK> i think it's going to be more rewarding and educational anyway - so would build not buy
[18:34] <Chimpusmaximus> i have to admit if time was not against me when i started i would have done my own. Lots more fun. Just got my first LoRa tracker working.
[18:35] <eroomde> now there are a couple of off-the-shelf flight computers for sale, and now people see that and decide that DIY must only be for advanced users and is far too complicated for them, and we're the poorer for it
[18:35] <eroomde> *but* pits has a wonderful niche in education
[18:35] <eroomde> teachers buy one to do hab with their class
[18:35] <DavidUK> i'm doing this project with my daughter
[18:35] <eroomde> and they of course just don't have the time to learn electronics and radio stuff for just one experiment of the 19 they have to do per term
[18:36] <daveake> what you get out of your flight is proportional to what you put in. So if you design/make/code/test your own gps/radio tracker, the whole thing will be much more rewarding
[18:36] <eroomde> so pits is a real gift to them, and i cheer it from the rooftops for that application
[18:36] <eroomde> but if you're on your own watch, it's so much better to DIY
[18:36] <RealBorg> look what i've found today http://f.666kb.com/i/d5g0qmtf5kwmn9gl2.jpg
[18:36] <DavidUK> agreed - i'm in no rush, and knowledge and a buzz of DIY is what I'm after
[18:37] <Oddstr13> I got a HackRF over a Airspy as my second SDR
[18:37] <eroomde> awesome, well you've come to the right place DavidUK
[18:37] <Oddstr13> mainly bacouse I wanted to be able to poke around in the wifi spectrums, and possibly also tx :P
[18:37] <eroomde> DavidUK: you might enjoy this https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2
[18:37] <eroomde> how to use the radio module we commonly use (and recommend) with an arduino
[18:37] <RealBorg> this piece of paper has long survived the shuttle it has been flown on
[18:37] <daveake> We can now chalk up another success on the wiki page entitled "list of potential habbers saved from the spot"
[18:38] <DavidUK> lol
[18:39] <DavidUK> okay, i'm not re-sold on radio - more research required
[18:39] <DavidUK> now
[18:39] <daveake> excellent.
[18:39] <eroomde> so regardless of building your payload, i'd get an rtl-sdr and habamp, and have a listen to other payloads as that's interesting and educational in-and-of itself. there are usually several flights a week, though right now the jet stream is bad, sending balloons into the sea, so not much launching going on
[18:39] <Upu> !flights
[18:39] <SpacenearUS> 03Upu: There are no flights currently :(
[18:39] <Upu> one tommorrow morning
[18:39] <eroomde> but traditionally around spring everyone starts launching en masse again
[18:39] <eroomde> but thre will be some here-and-there throughout the year
[18:40] <mfa298> it's well worth getting some sort of USB SDR radio reciever and a reasonable antenna early on and just get used to using the software, there's a lot of potentially interesting things you can find on the air waves as well as just tracking balloons
[18:40] <eroomde> yeah exactly
[18:40] <eroomde> the radio waves are fascinating
[18:40] <DavidUK> habamp will cut out the noise and amplify the 434 band, yes?
[18:40] <eroomde> if you don't mind blowing the money for an airspy, i'd jump straight to that
[18:40] <daveake> yup
[18:40] <eroomde> yes
[18:41] <DavidUK> and a fairly cheap antenna and a habamp would do the job (potentially)?
[18:42] <eroomde> yes certainly
[18:42] <DavidUK> apologies for the idiot questions btw
[18:42] <eroomde> people have got hundreds of km range out of that setup
[18:42] <eroomde> habamp + rtl-sdr
[18:42] <eroomde> antenna positioning matters
[18:42] <eroomde> if you're in the middle of a valley and the antenna is next to your fridge, you might not have much luck
[18:43] <eroomde> if you can put it somewhere highish with a clear view of the sky, you'll be a much happier camper
[18:43] <DavidUK> lol. i plan to launch from somewhere flat, not local - as i do live in a valley
[18:43] bertrik (~quassel@rockbox/developer/bertrik) joined #highaltitude.
[18:45] <eroomde> there aren't stupid questions as you dive into all this, don't worry
[18:45] <eroomde> it may look like an amazing and impenetrable monolith from the outside
[18:46] <DavidUK> well, i'll check out the links posted - thanks - and look into radio more. I'll be back with further questions I'm certain. Any advice on an antenna, or will any of the usb ones (plus amp) do?
[18:46] <eroomde> but the reality of this community is that it's just many people who are all doing things that build on each other's work, like a wall made of mini stones
[18:46] <DavidUK> well in the space of 15 mins, you've turned my plans on their head. but for the better i'm certain. i want this to be a success.
[18:47] <eroomde> antenna: you can get mag-mount ones that magnetically clip to the roof of your car, which provides a nice flat ground-plane (rf term)
[18:47] <eroomde> they are cheap
[18:47] <eroomde> if you get the big you can get something bigger than can sit on your roof
[18:47] <mfa298> For the receiving side you'll want a receiver (one of the USB ones mentioned so far), an antenna (things like the W50/X50 are popular) and some cable (RG213 is a reasonable choice)
[18:47] <mfa298> habamp will help with the cheaper USB dongles for balloons (but will hinder if you want to listen to other stuff)
[18:48] <eroomde> the Watson W50 (and X50) referenced above are of the attach-to-the-house variety
[18:48] <DavidUK> okay, guys - gotto go. Sainsbury's are here - and i'm starving!
[18:48] <DavidUK> i'll check out and maybe some back to you. cheers
[18:49] <eroomde> good luck
[18:50] <Laurenceb_> arg scientific publishing
[18:50] <Laurenceb_> how is anything ever finished
[18:50] <eroomde> papers are abandoned, not finished
[18:51] <Laurenceb_> probably the answer
[18:52] <Laurenceb_> I think difficulty goes up with exp(number_of_authors!) or something
[18:53] <Laurenceb_> its about 0.1% actual work and 99.9% co-author "management"
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: Is this still graph arguments?
[18:54] <nick_> Laurenceb_: just invite them for an editition session and pump the room full of nitrogen.
[18:55] <SpeedEvil> nick_: rotating doors are ideal for this.
[18:55] DL1SGP (~felix64@dhcp18.signon4.dk.beevpn.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 264 seconds
[18:56] DL1SGP (~felix64@dhcp55.signon3.dk.beevpn.com) joined #highaltitude.
[18:57] DavidUK (6d9334e3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.147.52.227) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[18:59] Nick change: stilldavid_ -> stilldavid
[18:59] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03hkLo1 after 035 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=hkLo1
[19:13] fl_0 (foo@unaffiliated/fl-0/x-7355575) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[19:14] fl_0 (foo@unaffiliated/fl-0/x-7355575) joined #highaltitude.
[19:27] LazyL_M0LEP (~irc-clien@41.215.89.46) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[19:38] es5nhc (~tarmo@108-40-71-217.sta.estpak.ee) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[19:48] luteijn_ (~luteijn@luteijn.xs4all.nl) joined #highaltitude.
[19:49] luteijn (~luteijn@luteijn.xs4all.nl) left irc: Ping timeout: 264 seconds
[19:54] g0hww (~g0hww@46-18-105-34.static.vivaciti.org) left irc: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
[20:17] drsnik_ (~drsnik@gate3.ima.cz) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[20:26] Kodar (~Kodar@93-139-190-129.adsl.net.t-com.hr) joined #highaltitude.
[20:31] drsnik (~drsnik@gate3.ima.cz) joined #highaltitude.
[20:35] <Laurenceb_> PS-57 is very intersting
[20:35] <Laurenceb_> pity it didnt last a while longer so it could be recovered on the ground
[20:37] <Laurenceb_> looks pretty certain to be a burst envelope to me
[20:38] <Ian_> DavidUK If you doubt what can be done with RTL dongles check this out http://websdr.suws.org.uk/ if in doubt speak to Craag on here.
[20:38] <Ian_> This is a good place to source RTL dongles http://www.cosycave.co.uk/category.php?id_category=61
[20:39] <Ian_> No guesses what online store sells the Pi in the Sky . . .
[20:39] <Ian_> Finally a young man recently went to Sotton University, having said that before coming on this channel he had no real knowledge of maths, let alone calculus . . .
[20:39] <Ian_> That young man is going to go far and was given several days one to one tutoring on line  here  by one or more of the people you have been talking with. Programmed his own tracker and then did an Eagle tut and designed his own boards. It's not rocket science  apparently.
[20:40] <Ian_> Yes, that was one I prepared earlier . . . :) +
[20:41] <R6mco> PS-57 is still up !!
[20:41] <Laurenceb_> no its not
[20:41] <Laurenceb_> it popped
[20:41] <Laurenceb_> why it popped is the interesting question
[20:41] <Ian_> Looking for an education - I think you have just found it!
[20:42] <R6mco> wait...
[20:42] <Laurenceb_> picospace may have managed to find the flight duration limit of unmodified party balloons
[20:42] <R6mco> did I see it wrong/
[20:42] <Laurenceb_> the reason for the limit would be very interesting to know
[20:42] <R6mco> wrong? *
[20:42] <Laurenceb_> I dunno check the tracker
[20:42] <Laurenceb_> look at the altitude
[20:42] <R6mco> yeah yeah
[20:42] <R6mco> I mistakenly looked at PS-58
[20:43] <Laurenceb_> seems to quick for UV damage to the envelope
[20:43] <R6mco> VK6MT had the last PS-57 decode
[20:43] <Ian_> My timing is suspect - DavidUK has left the channel !
[20:44] <R6mco> sad news ... I was one of the few on the northern hemisphere to decode PS-57
[20:51] <Laurenceb_> ascent velocity was high at 2.5m/s
[20:51] Kodar (~Kodar@93-139-190-129.adsl.net.t-com.hr) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[20:51] <Laurenceb_> looks like very high free lift compared with Leo
[20:52] <Laurenceb_> as his envelopes were more streamlined
[20:53] <Laurenceb_> there is little sign of a change in float altitude change from day to night
[20:53] <Laurenceb_> so that suggests its no cracking of the aluminium - something Leo suffered from
[20:54] <Laurenceb_> I'm guessing its envelope creep from the high superpressure
[20:55] <Laurenceb_> removing the aluminium would probably fix it - Nylon 6 creep rate goes down massively with decreasing temperature, and with the alu off the envelope will hardly be heated by the sun
[20:56] Kodar (~Kodar@93-139-222-48.adsl.net.t-com.hr) joined #highaltitude.
[20:58] <Laurenceb_> the superpressure during the day must be crazy high, maybe 10kPa
[20:58] <Laurenceb_> Leo was down below 4
[21:02] <R6mco> (I'm very new to this HAB hunting) So, to my understanding, PS-57 broke the 'floating record' ?
[21:02] <Laurenceb_> no
[21:02] <Laurenceb_> Leos record is way longer - over 3 months
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> but PS-57 is second place and longest for a standard party balloon
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> the overall balloon duration record is just under 3 years
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> (non amateur)
[21:04] <R6mco> 3 years ?
[21:05] Mark_B (6df621a2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.246.33.162) joined #highaltitude.
[21:05] <R6mco> <- looks puzzled
[21:05] <Mark_B> Good evening
[21:06] <Mark_B> Chimpusmaximus: are you about?
[21:06] <Chimpusmaximus> Yes
[21:06] <Mark_B> How you doing?
[21:07] <Laurenceb_> R6mco: yes, 3 years :D
[21:07] <Mark_B> DO I remember correctly... Did you lose a payload in July?
[21:07] <Laurenceb_> but that was in the early 70s, with modern materials >10 years is theoretically possible
[21:07] <Chimpusmaximus> Not to bad thanks, yeah payload lost out to sea
[21:08] <R6mco> Laurenceb: incredible
[21:08] <Chimpusmaximus> Was found a while back on German coast by a couple on holiday.
[21:08] <R6mco> I was pulled into this HAB thing by Bob
[21:08] <Chimpusmaximus> Waiting for sd card in post but been a while
[21:08] <Laurenceb_> this is why google are looking at balloons as a satellite alternative
[21:08] <R6mco> never knew it existed, a new world to me
[21:09] <Mark_B> Chimpus: yer, me too - same day. But, I got a call from a chap on the island of Texel on Saturday - he's got my Gopro!!! He saw my mobile number in one of the pics...
[21:09] <R6mco> I repeatedly received decodes from PS-57 (and once PS-58) as only station on the northern hemisphere
[21:09] <Chimpusmaximus> Mark_https://goo.gl/photos/R6RyRhpSgcQ5F3DT9
[21:09] <Chimpusmaximus> Wow fantastic
[21:10] <R6mco> not knowing I was decoding a ... balloon ... ; -)
[21:10] <Chimpusmaximus> Mark_B: https://goo.gl/photos/R6RyRhpSgcQ5F3DT9
[21:10] <Laurenceb_> at the scale google are looking at, there is not really any theoretical duration limit
[21:10] <Laurenceb_> its probabl yin the centuries
[21:10] <R6mco> Mark_B: Texel is in my country ;-)
[21:11] <Laurenceb_> but not enough is known about material degradation to say
[21:11] <R6mco> anyway... it's nice to give some decodes to the community ... in order to help that the balloon is still alive
[21:12] <R6mco> I'm into weak signal receiving.. if it's a balloon ... okay for me ; -)
[21:12] <R6mco> if it's somebody from the South Pole with 10 mW @30m <- also ok
[21:13] Mark_B_ (6df621a2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.246.33.162) joined #highaltitude.
[21:13] <Chimpusmaximus> Mark_B: I guess your waiting for it to be returned? Or just hope for sd card
[21:13] Mark_B (6df621a2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.246.33.162) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[21:14] <Mark_B_> Chimpus: cool pics (in a forensic kinda way). Did the data survive on the sd?
[21:15] <Mark_B_> I'm thinking about nipping over this weekend to get them back. I fancy a quick trip on the ferry
[21:16] <Chimpusmaximus> Couple struggled to read it but it's from a rpi so Linux and not that easy to mount to get to pictures etc. I'm waiting for its return in post.
[21:16] <Mark_B_> rgr, where from?
[21:16] <Chimpusmaximus> The möbius video camera washed way
[21:17] <Chimpusmaximus> I'm not 100% where from as only had contact through google hangouts. Will chase up if not here in a week.
[21:18] <Chimpusmaximus> It actually washed up between Germany and Denmark
[21:21] <Mark_B_> kk. I'll let you know how I get on with MM6 recovery - good luck
[21:21] heathkid|2 (~heathkid@unaffiliated/heathkid) joined #highaltitude.
[21:23] heathkid (~heathkid@unaffiliated/heathkid) left irc: Ping timeout: 255 seconds
[21:27] <Chimpusmaximus> cheers
[21:29] <Mark_B_> cheerio
[21:29] Mark_B_ (6df621a2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.246.33.162) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[21:30] <AndyEsser> Laurenceb_: that Project Loon stuff looks pretty awesome
[21:31] <Laurenceb_> yeah, its economically challenging though
[21:31] <Laurenceb_> as either they have a complete network or the availability sucks
[21:31] <Laurenceb_> thats not a nice situation to be in
[21:33] <SpeedEvil> store and forward isn't really a buisness I guess
[21:33] <SpeedEvil> :)
[21:33] <Laurenceb_> then again, the same problem applies to massive LEO satellite constellations like facebook and spacex are proposing
[21:34] <Laurenceb_> LEO allows much more practical transceivers than GOE, but then balloon is another order of magnitude or so nicer
[21:34] <Laurenceb_> so thats a big positive for balloons
[21:34] <AndyEsser> potentially cheaper to launch balloons as well
[21:35] <Laurenceb_> a store and forward cubesat might be nice for hab
[21:35] <Laurenceb_> but picospace has kind of proved HF as viable
[21:35] <AndyEsser> Laurenceb_: I'd love to work on a cubesat that anyone could send a message to do, and anyone receive a message from
[21:35] <Laurenceb_> I see RocketLab are going to launch >100 cubesats a shot
[21:36] <Laurenceb_> but at $60k a per cubesat O_o
[21:37] <Laurenceb_> https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLab/
[21:38] <AndyEsser> Laurenceb_: let me just pop to the bank...
[21:38] <AndyEsser> ha
[21:41] <Laurenceb_> I'm not aware of any OSCAR sats with ISM band digital store and forward
[21:41] <Laurenceb_> probably kind of goes against the amateur radio ethos
[21:42] <BrainDamage> why?
[21:47] <Laurenceb_> ISM != amateur
[21:51] Lemml (~andreas@82.100.246.18) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[21:53] KriZtoV (~KriZtoV@puck1118.server4you.de) left irc: Ping timeout: 246 seconds
[21:53] <BrainDamage> no, why it goes against the "ethos" of ham radio
[21:53] <BrainDamage> afterall, they do have automated stations, store and forward relays, etc
[21:53] KriZtoV (~KriZtoV@puck1118.server4you.de) joined #highaltitude.
[21:54] critcalmass (critcalmas@cpc79141-cbly8-2-0-cust407.6-2.cable.virginm.net) joined #highaltitude.
[21:54] <Laurenceb_> yes but those operate on dedicated amateur channels
[21:54] <Laurenceb_> also they are mostly analogue
[21:54] <AndyEsser> eww
[21:54] <AndyEsser> nasty word
[21:54] <AndyEsser> :P
[21:54] critcalmass (critcalmas@cpc79141-cbly8-2-0-cust407.6-2.cable.virginm.net) left irc: Client Quit
[21:55] critcalmass (critcalmas@cpc79141-cbly8-2-0-cust407.6-2.cable.virginm.net) joined #highaltitude.
[21:56] <gonzo_nb> if a sat were to use ism as an umberella, they would have to turn it on and off as it went over countries that recognised ism
[21:57] <gonzo_nb> to be legal
[21:57] <AndyEsser> depends on the actual band - some ISM bands are worldwide accpetec
[21:57] <AndyEsser> accepted
[21:57] <gonzo_nb> also why use a noisy part of the band with very low power when you can apply for a quiet channel with power
[21:59] jcoxon (~jcoxon@247.141.112.87.dyn.plus.net) joined #highaltitude.
[21:59] <AndyEsser> Anyway - night all
[21:59] <gonzo_nb> using ism would be very unreliable when your 100k£ project is concerned
[21:59] <mfa298> I suspect it would be a challenge to talk to a sat using ISM power limits
[22:00] <gonzo_nb> uplink would be very difficult
[22:00] <gonzo_nb> downlink more so
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> its doable and its been done
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> see $50 sat
[22:01] <gonzo_nb> but a 10mW uplink signal talking to a sat that can see a million other devices?
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> yes with SAW filter and stuff
[22:02] <mfa298> $50sat may have also been using more power down than ISM allows (I'm trying to remember if 434 ISM allows more than 10mW, and if there were amps on $50 sat tx)
[22:03] <gonzo_nb> no readon why a sat cant use a good rx
[22:03] <Laurenceb_> iirc $50 managed uplink with 10mW
[22:03] <gonzo_nb> but will be hearig lots of devices
[22:03] <Laurenceb_> not completely reliable but it worked
[22:03] <Laurenceb_> also a balloon would be over the sea more often than not
[22:03] fab4space (~Fabrice@AMontpellier-656-1-311-157.w86-202.abo.wanadoo.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[22:03] <gonzo_nb> uplinking to a satellite is legal within the ISM part of the band, but as an AR servioce using poawer
[22:04] <gonzo_nb> did they use 10mW erp though?
[22:05] <gonzo_nb> or a high gain ant?
[22:05] <Laurenceb_> not sure to be honest, certainly not most of the time
[22:05] <Laurenceb_> I'm not sure what the "record performance" was
[22:05] <gonzo_nb> it may work as a test, but will be very unriliable
[22:06] <gonzo_nb> reliable
[22:06] critcalmass (critcalmas@cpc79141-cbly8-2-0-cust407.6-2.cable.virginm.net) left #highaltitude.
[22:07] DanielRichman (~daniel@unaffiliated/danielrichman) left irc: Quit: leaving
[22:08] DanielRichman (~daniel@unaffiliated/danielrichman) joined #highaltitude.
[22:08] <SpeedEvil> It's a pity that decent gain antennas are impractical at 2.4G or 5G on cubesats
[22:09] <Laurenceb_> $50sat RF design was _very_ sub optimal
[22:09] <gonzo_nb> you could put patch ants on each face
[22:09] <mfa298> there's some information about it on https://www.dropbox.com/sh/l3919wtfiywk2gf/AAAPdtdyvnq0tb6_p9nrW-0ea/%2450SAT%20-%20Eagle2%20-%20Communications%20-%20Release%20Version%20V1_2.pdf?dl=0
[22:10] <mfa298> which suggests a 10W tx with yagi was needed for good uplink
[22:10] critcalmass (critcalmas@cpc79141-cbly8-2-0-cust407.6-2.cable.virginm.net) joined #highaltitude.
[22:11] critcalmass (critcalmas@cpc79141-cbly8-2-0-cust407.6-2.cable.virginm.net) left #highaltitude.
[22:11] <Laurenceb_> I don't think that discusses the actual in orbit performance tests
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_nb: by 'decent gain' I mean equal to several meters across
[22:12] <Laurenceb_> which were much better iirc (probably as the ground test data ignores Fresnel zones and fading)
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> LASER is sort-of-practical, but...
[22:12] <Laurenceb_> theoretically it should easily work - so its just a case of in band interference limiting uplink performance
[22:12] <Laurenceb_> and 434 is pretty empty
[22:13] <Laurenceb_> combine that with a SAW and doppler correction on the uplink and you should be ok most of the time
[22:13] <Laurenceb_> (SAW on the sat)
[22:14] <SpeedEvil> SAW is great, because you're pretty much guaranteed no local stations
[22:16] <mfa298> Laurenceb_: maybe you should design and launch a cubesat at ISM power levels and show us it can be done reliably.
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> I sense sarcasm
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> look at ARGOS - that manages uplink in similar conditions (tho not ISM band)
[22:18] <Laurenceb_> mfa298: all this has been done already with $50sat in orbit tests
[22:19] <mfa298> all the bits I've seen so far going through the $50 sat docs suggest things were well above ISM power levels.
[22:19] <Laurenceb_> with some modest hardware improvements it'd be reliable over sea and likely fairly reliable over land
[22:19] <Laurenceb_> those docs were written prior to launch
[22:20] <mfa298> not all of them
[22:20] <gonzo_nb> dish gains on leo are a bit difficult on a cube!. But the geo one will be 2.4 up
[22:21] <Laurenceb_> 2.4ghz uplink, now there is something thats _unlikely_ to work
[22:21] <gonzo_nb> nope it has a good chance
[22:21] <Laurenceb_> 2.4g band is a disaster zone
[22:22] <gonzo_nb> there will be lots of 2.4 low erp stuff, but that will br down a long way at 36,000km
[22:22] <gonzo_nb> and getting power and gain at that freq is easy
[22:23] <gonzo_nb> and the 10ghz down will be anabsolure piece of piss
[22:23] Lunar_Lander (~kevin@p548884F5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #highaltitude.
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> hello#
[22:24] <gonzo_nb> I managed 2.4gig downlink on the fo52 ok
[22:24] <gonzo_nb> eve ll
[22:27] <gonzo_nb> once the sat was above the horizon, the ant beamwidth helped with the wlan
[22:28] <DoYouKnow> Hi!!! Can I receive NOAA satellites with a ublox7 usb dongle?
[22:28] <DoYouKnow> I am wondering if I can patch the firmware to tune to a different frequency somehow, at least in RAM?
[22:29] <mattbrejza> noaa satellites on 137MHz..?
[22:29] <DoYouKnow> no, I meant HRPT
[22:29] <DoYouKnow> 1698 Mhz
[22:29] <gonzo_nb> do you have the skills to rewrite the firmware?
[22:29] <DoYouKnow> *MHz
[22:29] <DoYouKnow> parts of it, yes
[22:30] <gonzo_nb> then you prob know enough to answer your own question
[22:30] <gonzo_nb> or better still, just use an airspy/fcd/tr
[22:30] <gonzo_nb> rt
[22:30] <gonzo_nb> rtl
[22:30] <gonzo_nb> will get there in the end!
[22:42] <AndyEsser> stupid question - if I'm just using a quarter-wave whip antenna for testing of my NTX2b
[22:42] <AndyEsser> should the wire be insulated or not?
[22:42] <Lunar_Lander> hi AndyEsser
[22:43] <AndyEsser> hey
[22:44] <Lunar_Lander> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1lke6hPHKJDS245ZkVhTHB2eFU/view?usp=sharing :)
[22:44] critcalmass (critcalmas@cpc79141-cbly8-2-0-cust407.6-2.cable.virginm.net) joined #highaltitude.
[22:45] <bertrik> AndyEsser: I think it doesn't matter
[22:46] <mattbrejza> AndyEsser: you can use a wet sock for testing, thats how much it doesnt matter
[22:47] <AndyEsser> hehe
[22:47] <AndyEsser> I'm going to have to try that ;)
[22:47] <AndyEsser> thanks
[22:47] <critcalmass> Hi all, sorry for hopping in and out a lot tonight. I've been trying to set up mIRC to auto start a couple of servers and channels. Got it cracked now :-)
[22:47] <AndyEsser> Lunar_Lander: o0o that's hawt
[22:47] <mfa298> I think insulation makes a very small difference to the velocity factor, but you're probably not measuring that accurately
[22:47] <Lunar_Lander> thanks :)
[22:48] <AndyEsser> TBH - this is literally a "Stick the antenna next to the SDR dongle, and check _something_ happens when I twiddle a pin"
[22:48] <AndyEsser> nothing scientific about it
[22:48] <AndyEsser> so I'm sure it'll be fine
[22:51] <gonzo_nb> insulated wire makes it more difficult to accidentally short it, but technically it doesn't matter
[22:53] <AndyEsser> in which case
[22:53] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/qH5ZRU4
[22:53] <AndyEsser> behold! My basically completed tracker prototype board
[22:55] <gonzo_nb> good start
[22:55] <gonzo_nb> what's the pric?
[22:55] <gonzo_nb> proc
[22:55] <AndyEsser> AVR 328p
[22:57] <Vaizki> you don't need that much antenna to catch it in the same room
[22:57] <Vaizki> in fact no antenna at all is just fine...
[22:57] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: I was just going by the datasheet ;)
[22:59] <Vaizki> so does it work? :)
[23:00] <AndyEsser> no idea - dongle hasn't arrived yet :)
[23:00] <AndyEsser> I'm hoping it'll arrive this week, as will my scope
[23:00] <Vaizki> is the tv still working? ;)
[23:00] <AndyEsser> so I can finish coding, and then work on the PCB design
[23:00] <AndyEsser> lol, I haven't powered it
[23:00] <AndyEsser> and the TV doesn't have an antenna anyway - so doubtful it'd do anything anyway
[23:04] <AndyEsser> anywhoozle
[23:04] <AndyEsser> really must head off now
[23:04] <AndyEsser> chat laters all
[23:04] <Vaizki> I'm waiting for the snow..
[23:04] <Vaizki> supposed to blow 50cm or so this way tonight
[23:05] <Vaizki> well actually I'm doing a presentation and dreading the snow plowing in the morning
[23:05] <Vaizki> so g'nite
[23:09] uwe_ (~uwe_@dslb-088-067-183-148.088.067.pools.vodafone-ip.de) left irc: Ping timeout: 272 seconds
[23:09] uwe_ (~uwe_@dslb-088-067-183-148.088.067.pools.vodafone-ip.de) joined #highaltitude.
[23:24] jcoxon (~jcoxon@247.141.112.87.dyn.plus.net) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[23:32] Kodar (~Kodar@93-139-222-48.adsl.net.t-com.hr) left irc:
[23:34] Cnorman27 (6b4da504@gateway/web/freenode/ip.107.77.165.4) joined #highaltitude.
[23:39] gonzo_nb (~gonzo@host-92-6-244-28.as43234.net) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[23:40] Cnorman27 (6b4da504@gateway/web/freenode/ip.107.77.165.4) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[23:46] bertrik (~quassel@rockbox/developer/bertrik) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[23:52] SebastianFlyte (~sebf@pool-173-79-110-127.washdc.fios.verizon.net) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[00:00] --- Tue Jan 12 2016