highaltitude.log.20160108

[00:08] <PsionicOz> Lunar_Lander: there are times that you need to stop reading and go play...
[00:08] <Lunar_Lander> true
[00:08] <Lunar_Lander> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1lke6hPHKJDcFJkM1VwZTFlLUE/view?pref=2&pli=1
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[00:23] <PsionicOz> cool...
[00:23] <Lunar_Lander> thanks :)
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[00:23] <PsionicOz> this is my latest PCB I got hackvana to make http://i.imgur.com/NiVEdZg.jpg
[00:24] <Lunar_Lander> nice :)
[00:24] <PsionicOz> they arrived yesterday :)
[00:24] <PsionicOz> however all the parts from E14 haven't
[00:25] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok
[00:26] <Lunar_Lander> hope they come soon
[00:34] <PsionicOz> me too
[00:34] <PsionicOz> anyway meeting times (*sigh*)
[00:34] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[00:34] <Lunar_Lander> time for good night here
[00:34] <Lunar_Lander> see you later :)
[00:34] Action: PsionicOz waves
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[07:36] <garymortimer> Morning all tuned in to watch Tim Peake well done Phil it all looks great
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[07:48] <garymortimer> Lots of data noise on the frequency sounds like APRS
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[08:19] <fsphil> ah I missed that
[08:27] <eroomde> https://principia.ariss.org/live/
[08:27] <eroomde> hasn't happened yet i don't believe
[08:30] <fsphil> thanks
[08:31] <fsphil> ah I know some of those faces
[08:32] <eroomde> graham shirville has been of this parish
[08:32] <eroomde> and phil obv
[08:32] <fsphil> remember noel from the conf
[08:34] <fsphil> they've a great setup there
[08:36] <eroomde> they had this at the parkside school one http://www.g3txf.com/dxtrip/HFC-Oct-09/web-GB4FUN.jpg
[08:36] <eroomde> would have made an awesome hab launch hq
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[08:46] <UpuWork> gb4FUN ? :)
[08:46] <UpuWork> when I win the lottery this evening I'm going to buy something like that for launching
[08:47] <eroomde> i remember a good gasp from the audience when he crackled through
[08:47] <fsphil> yay, a voice in the noise
[08:50] <jonsowman> :)
[08:50] <fsphil> still really noisy
[08:50] <jonsowman> yeah
[08:52] <Kostas_> Hello from Greece, I am interested in high altitude ballooning using ordinary cheap mylar balloons filled with He or H2. I would like to put a tracking transmitter onboard but the system has to be very very lightweight (10grams). The only lightweight thing I have found is this http://chris-stubbs.co.uk/wp/?p=475 are you aware of any other? To be honest I would prefer shortwave transmission instead of UHF
[08:52] <fsphil> whoa, he science'd tim
[08:54] <fsphil> there have been a few light weight trackers built for that purpose Kostas_. some recent ones from australia are using HF too
[08:54] <AndyEsser> eroomde: I've toyed with getting a 40ft container and refitting it as a launch/release HQ :)
[08:56] <Vaizki> Kostas_, you are in the right place but I don't think many people buy their trackers here.. they tend to build them themselves
[08:56] <eroomde> end of window?
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[08:56] <fsphil> that was quick
[08:56] <eroomde> tho if you look at the iss next time it passes you, it doesn't hang about
[08:56] <AndyEsser> 3-4 minutes I think was the longest I got when I spotted it in Cambridge
[08:57] <fsphil> indeed. like the optimistic signing off
[08:57] <Vaizki> yes the ISS moves much quicker than you'd expect
[08:58] <AndyEsser> Does have an orbit duration of about 90 minutes - can't really expect it to hang around :)
[08:58] <Kostas_> Vaizki this was another option I was thinking of. A class-E amplifier (2n7000) driven directly by a micro would do it as far as concern the transmission. I have not experience in micro programming though, so I cannot read gps data and translate them to morse rtty or whatever.
[08:58] <Vaizki> I listen in on the 2m transmissions now and then, unfortunately it's mostly the russians talking when they're around here
[08:59] <fsphil> I've only heard the russians during their spacewalks
[08:59] <Vaizki> Kostas_, the micro programming is actually fairly easy at least if you know any programming at all.
[08:59] <Kostas_> Yes I do
[09:00] <Kostas_> mostly high level programming
[09:00] <Kostas_> Should I start with arduino? Picaxe seems to me more easy indeed, but I do not like the closed source bootloader
[09:00] <Vaizki> you may also want to look at the pecan femto/pico trackers, not sure if they sell them
[09:01] <Vaizki> for arduino (well avr 328p) you will get a lot of help from here at least
[09:02] <Kostas_> Thanks! Also for the hint about femto/pico trackers.
[09:02] <fsphil> we didn't do any amateur radio stuff at my school. I would've loved that
[09:03] <Vaizki> Kostas_, but for HF tracking not many people here because in the UK it's illegal to transmit airborne on amateur radio even if you are licensed
[09:03] <eroomde> my school did but i remember being not interested
[09:03] <Vaizki> I am in Finland and here it's not directly banned but a permission is needed for each flight AFAIK
[09:03] <eroomde> iss might have made a difference
[09:03] <eroomde> or hab obviously
[09:03] <eroomde> hab is why i got my license
[09:04] <Vaizki> yea the Internet kinda ruined amateur radio dxing etc.. :)
[09:04] <AndyEsser> eroomde: I did the radio stuff with Doc, but didn't see it through to completion
[09:04] <AndyEsser> was looking the other night at what is involved in getting am license
[09:04] <Vaizki> at least here it's just a quiz now..
[09:04] <Vaizki> not even a morse tapdance audition needed
[09:05] <fsphil> yeah you could probably pass just by guessing the answers :)
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[09:05] <AndyEsser> I think the thing that put me off was having to learn Morse - but I know now you can have a crib sheet, so that's ok :)
[09:05] <Vaizki> well I learned morse in the navy and then forgot it
[09:05] Action: Vaizki feels old again :(
[09:05] <fsphil> yeah glad the morse isn't a requirement anymore
[09:05] <AndyEsser> fsphil: is it not? I thought it was still part of the UK amateur radio stuff?
[09:05] <fsphil> nope
[09:05] <eroomde> AndyEsser: the foundation license needs basically nothing
[09:06] <eroomde> and no, no more morse
[09:06] <Vaizki> it's just a quiz
[09:06] <fsphil> I've a full license, still don't know any more other than nokia's S-M-S beeps :)
[09:06] <eroomde> you could get your foundation at this year's ukhas conference iuw
[09:06] <AndyEsser> fsphil: M0 or M1?
[09:06] <AndyEsser> eroomde: :)
[09:06] <fsphil> M0
[09:06] <Vaizki> like what is the MHz for 2m band, what it the max power for this and that..
[09:06] <AndyEsser> M0 money M0 problems?
[09:06] Action: AndyEsser is such a weirdo
[09:06] <fsphil> MI0 where I'm currently sitting
[09:06] <eroomde> M0TEK here
[09:06] <russss> the foundation practical has a "morse appreciation" thing
[09:06] <fsphil> MI0VIM
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[09:07] <AndyEsser> hmm... ponders on callsign
[09:07] <Vaizki> do you have to pay through the nose to get to choose a callsign?
[09:08] <fsphil> free
[09:08] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: the document I read says you can request it when you pass your required certifications, but no guarantees
[09:08] <eroomde> maybe you could sell the hipster angle on morse
[09:08] <russss> no, but it's difficult to get the available ones
[09:08] <russss> we have a scraper for the ofcom website which finds the available callsigns we have a callsign scraper https://github.com/marksteward/callsigns
[09:08] <fsphil> you can let the website pick a random one too
[09:08] <russss> wtf happened there.
[09:08] <eroomde> i was thinking about M0ORE but i couldn't
[09:09] <Vaizki> russss, hehe we have an official lit on the web from our version of ofcom :D
[09:09] <fsphil> hah, that would've been perfect
[09:09] <eroomde> and also the guy i suggested it to said, quick as a flash, 'nah, crap in morse'
[09:09] <AndyEsser> ewww python :P
[09:09] <eroomde> (8 dahs in a row or something)
[09:09] <russss> we updated the M0 ones last month (we can only do it when we have someone who's applying for one)
[09:10] <AndyEsser> hehe M0IST
[09:10] <fsphil> I tried to get MI6SPY for my foundation but someone beat me to it
[09:10] <Vaizki> M0NEY?
[09:10] <AndyEsser> aww
[09:11] <AndyEsser> tbh, for foundation I'll just take what the give me
[09:11] <AndyEsser> if I were to go for an M0 or M1 then I'd want to try and choose one
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[09:11] <eroomde> i can't remember what my other ones were
[09:11] <Vaizki> well here you keep your callsign forever once it's given
[09:12] <Vaizki> well some special rules but that's the basic principle
[09:12] <russss> yeah you do keep your older callsigns if for some reason you want to use them
[09:12] <Vaizki> I mean here you don't get new ones
[09:12] <jonsowman> i just had to validate my M6 and 2E0
[09:12] <jonsowman> only reason i remember what they were
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[09:13] <AndyEsser> eroomde: you can't remember - and yet I still remember the callsign we used with Doc Morrison Smith... tsk tsk
[09:13] <Vaizki> damn OH2BAD is taken
[09:13] <AndyEsser> haha
[09:13] <Vaizki> now you got me searching for a vanity callsign
[09:13] <eroomde> i barely remember doc morrison smith
[09:13] <AndyEsser> really?
[09:13] <AndyEsser> wow
[09:13] <eroomde> (no, i do definitelly remember)
[09:13] <eroomde> doc and ken
[09:13] <AndyEsser> Good chaps
[09:14] <eroomde> i wonder what happened to ken
[09:14] <AndyEsser> If I'm perfectly honest... I'm not sure he's still... err... broadcasting (shall we say)
[09:14] <eroomde> i was too pupilly to be allowed to know at the time, but i always got the feeling that he left under a bit of a cloud after falling out with chris
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[09:14] <eroomde> is he not?
[09:14] <AndyEsser> O really? I heard it was all health related
[09:14] <AndyEsser> (hence my above statement)
[09:16] <eroomde> hmm
[09:16] <Kostas_> Vaizki are you sure about the transmission regulations in UK? I am involved in a cubesat comms project in Greece http://www.amsat.gr and the station operates with my callsign sv3ora. We have been granded a license for transmitting from http://www.amsatuk.me.uk/iaru/finished_detail.php?serialnum=430 on the radioamateur frequencies (V/U). However the only requirement was to be able to switch off the TX in case of system failure.
[09:16] <AndyEsser> but that may just be because I was also too pupily like you said above, and so that was a convenient way to prevent questions being asked
[09:17] <Vaizki> well most of the guys here on the channel are from UK and they would LOVE to fly AR equipment and tx power..
[09:17] <eroomde> Kostas_: you definitely can't use your license airborne here
[09:17] <eroomde> (the uk)
[09:18] <Kostas_> It is weird isn't it? amsatuk grands airborne license permission, but not in UK!
[09:18] <Kostas_> Anyway thanks for let me know
[09:19] <fsphil> amsat can't grant any permissions, they're not that kind of organisation?
[09:19] <russss> satellite frequencies are a completely different ball game
[09:19] <eroomde> Kostas_: sattelites are treated differently
[09:19] <russss> I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to get a satellite allocation for a balloon.
[09:19] <eroomde> and correct, amsat don't have the authority
[09:19] <Kostas_> fsphil right IARU I should say, sorry
[09:20] <fsphil> yeah. in the UK it's all from OFCOM in relation to amateur radio frequencies
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[09:25] <Kostas_> Useful channel people, nice to talk to you!
[09:26] <AndyEsser> Have a HABby day!
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[09:40] <gonzo_> it's the amsat organisations who put in the applications to IARU for satellite frequencies. And not supprisingly it's amsat members who also have positions on the IARU board to approve them
[09:41] <gonzo_> there are a few dedicated people who wear many hats
[09:41] <gonzo_> and keep things moving smoothly
[09:41] <Vaizki> you can never have too many hats when your job is wearing hats
[09:41] <AndyEsser> I don't look good in hats
[09:41] <AndyEsser> :P
[09:42] <gonzo_> wasn't that in the meaning of life (python film)
[09:42] <Kostas_> Just for info, this is the most amazing I have found https://kt5tk.wordpress.com/ way too complex though. but SSTV and cross-band repeater on board...
[09:42] <Kostas_> some guys are pushing it too much!
[09:42] <AndyEsser> no such thing!
[09:43] <Vaizki> they are making everyone else look bad!
[09:43] <Vaizki> stop it now!
[09:44] <fsphil> KT5TK appears in the channel from time to time
[09:44] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: that's the sort of board I'm planning on working up to :)
[09:44] <fsphil> been at the ukhas conference a few times too, nice bloke
[09:45] <Kostas_> that BGA makes me ungry though, can't solder it in the lab :)
[09:46] <Kostas_> No, not everything else does look bad. What they have done is great but... expensive :)
[09:47] <Kostas_> who can afford loosing such an equipment landed in another country?
[09:48] <Kostas_> so there are is always a meaning in simpler but cheaper projects
[09:50] <gonzo_> cost is relative. Just a balloon and a bottle of gas will cost
[09:50] <gonzo_> if they are a group, the cost may be shared
[09:55] <mfa298> AndyEsser: reading back a bit Im not sure if M1 calls are available to choose from, although I suspect when the range gets opened up there might be a good selection (although the early ones will mostly have gone)
[09:56] <AndyEsser> mfa298: Ah ok, is M1 not currently open?
[09:57] <mfa298> I've not looked for a while, but previously I've got the impression you can only choose from M0
[09:57] <mfa298> M1 was the old Class B full license (>30MHz) with M0 being Class A (all bands - required 12wpm morse)
[09:58] <AndyEsser> Ah, is that not the case anymore?
[09:59] <mfa298> it's now all just Full/Advanced (so my M1 call lets me use HF), but I'm not sure ofcom are offering them for allocation yet (I'm guessing they'll appear as the M0 pool gets close to empty)
[10:00] <AndyEsser> ah ok - I see
[10:00] <AndyEsser> I thought the M1 was for the intermediate range, with M0 being the Full
[10:00] <AndyEsser> thanks for the info
[10:01] <mfa298> Intermediate is in 2E0
[10:01] <cm13g09> mfa298: and 2E1
[10:01] <mfa298> which historicly was the novice range (with a similar 2E0/2E1 split for class A and Class B)
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[10:21] <eroomde> Kostas_: you can do bga in a home lab
[10:22] <eroomde> and that board is not too expensive
[10:22] <eroomde> about the same as many hab boards
[10:22] <eroomde> it's a small pcb
[10:22] <eroomde> it has a few ICs which are all about $5-$10
[10:22] <eroomde> it has a ublox
[10:22] <eroomde> it's not abnormal for here
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[10:27] <Kostas_> That BGA... I never ficured out how can these been soldered. I do not think hot air is enough.
[10:28] <eroomde> oven works
[10:28] <Kostas_> and how do you place the balls in place? sticku paste?
[10:28] <Kostas_> *sticky
[10:30] <eroomde> just a little solderpaste
[10:30] <eroomde> that holds it like it does any other ic
[10:32] <gonzo_> I've used hot air with BGA, but over is far better
[10:33] <gonzo_> (a long time ago, so I suspect the pitches have reduced since then!)
[10:33] <fsphil> I'd need an x-ray machine to check it has soldered ok
[10:34] <realborg> fsphil, if you're soldering for spaceflight
[10:35] <gonzo_> there's a project for you then
[10:35] <gonzo_> build an xray mc
[10:36] <fsphil> hah, that would be fun. and probably a bit dangerous
[10:36] <fsphil> or, a homebrew MRI scanner
[10:36] <eroomde> i've always wanted to build an mri machine
[10:37] <eroomde> or at least something that does some sort of imaging where you can use the radon transform
[10:40] <gonzo_> I've messed with old projectors that used a discharge lamp. They always had fun xray warning stickers on the enclosure
[10:42] <gonzo_> (wasn't there a simpsons episode where young homer was sat in front of the xray-o'matic brand TV set. And when he moved, his shaddow was still etched onto the wall behind him?
[10:46] <realborg> eroomde, did you try a geiger counter on them?
[10:46] <realborg> aehm, gonzo_
[10:46] <eroomde> dodged a bullet there
[10:47] <realborg> dodged is good :)
[10:53] <gonzo_> nope, always made sure the covers were on them. Apare from the xrays, it was too bright to see what was going on with the covers off!
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[11:04] <realborg> i wonder how easy/difficult it is to create x-rays under atmospheric conditions
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[11:19] <gonzo_> xray tubes use high energy electrons against a tungsten target. Not sure you could get the energy if they were not in a high vacuum
[11:25] <fsphil> you get some x-rays from duct-tape
[11:25] <fsphil> probably not enough to be useful
[11:26] <eroomde> that's what the spinning bit of the mri machine does
[11:26] <eroomde> it's a giant roll of duct tape being continuously unwound
[11:27] <fsphil> hah
[11:27] <eroomde> i have found a desk that fits in the awkward space i have in my spare room
[11:27] <eroomde> perfeck
[11:28] <fsphil> nice
[11:28] <eroomde> this is becoming the new electronics workbench
[11:28] <fsphil> I'm on the lookout for something I can use to put up shelves, without drilling holes in the wall. I want the option to be able to relocate the desk later
[11:31] <eroomde> i was going to put some of that ubiquitous metalic shelving on the desk
[11:31] <eroomde> again so as not to hang it off the wall
[11:32] <fsphil> does it take up much desk space?
[11:32] <fsphil> I'd seen something at ikea with was just shelves on legs that could sit behind the desk. but they don't sell them anymore
[11:34] <eroomde> http://www.bigdug.co.uk/shelving-c2/chrome-shelving-c30/900mm-high-chrome-shelving-pp1341
[11:34] <eroomde> that kind of thing
[11:34] <SM0ULC-Reb> eroomde: one of those half-size ikea Billy?
[11:34] <eroomde> if you set the first shelf up high, it doesn't really take up so much desk space
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[11:34] <fsphil> mmm. something like that would be good for my scope and psu
[11:35] <eroomde> zackly
[11:35] <fsphil> https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3209/3641557199_eb0860e9eb.jpg
[11:35] <realborg> gonzo_, I have seen my geiger counter going haywire when I had a high voltage contact sliding over a gold metal surface
[11:36] <fsphil> discontinued sadly
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[11:41] <AndyEsser> UpuWork: package has arrived, thank you kindly
[11:41] <gonzo_> I've used the light duty netal shelf sets, but only assembled in half and sat on desks. Been doing that for decades
[11:41] <gonzo_> well, till I got some chuck out stuff from work with that all built in
[11:42] <gonzo_> works very well if you don't overload the shelves
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[11:44] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03kbuvubknib_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=kbuvubknib_chase
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[11:50] <AndyEsser> I built 3 new desks for my workshop over the xmas break
[11:50] <AndyEsser> serious lack of storage though
[11:50] <AndyEsser> think I need to look at shelving as well
[11:51] <fsphil> be nice to have a light under the shelf too
[11:52] <AndyEsser> I already had a nice bendy LED light that I can easily move around
[11:52] <AndyEsser> but tempted to get one of those "manicure lamps" the bit magnifying class on an arm with a round light around it
[12:01] <Kostas_> These lamps are useless for SMD rework. Get a very bright light sourxe, like a 1W led and a 1cm diameter glass lens, the best magnification you can find. Solder it to a needle head using some superglue. You will have the most powerful and also easy to use magnification tool for SMD.
[12:01] <R6mco> ok, last 24hrs I had three WSPR decodes from PS-57 here in EUrope
[12:01] <Kostas_> it can access very tiny spaces through components in a PCB.
[12:02] <eroomde> i'm not a big fan of those magnifying lamps either
[12:02] <eroomde> i have one at work and just use it as a lamp
[12:03] <Kostas_> These lamps just don't have the magnification and the focal point needed to work near the smd components
[12:03] <eroomde> and i lose almost all depth perception through them
[12:03] <Kostas_> i have one too and use it as a stant for the hot air station tubes, that I want to come out from the top when I solder :P
[12:03] <eroomde> also, my eyes are fine and i never have had a problem doing smd work without magnification
[12:03] <AndyEsser> lucky you
[12:03] <eroomde> apart from some very delicate surgery on a qfn pad once
[12:03] <AndyEsser> :(
[12:04] <Kostas_> It depends of how small smd stuff you solder
[12:04] <Kostas_> Open a mobile phone and you will see why you need such a lens
[12:04] <eroomde> down to qfn for ics, 0402 for passives
[12:04] <eroomde> yes
[12:04] <eroomde> i'm not doing 005002 or anything
[12:04] <Kostas_> Your eyes will bluw up if you try to focus on such things!
[12:04] <eroomde> i do like the look of the mantis scope though
[12:05] <AndyEsser> http://www.visioneng.com/products/stereo-microscopes/mantis-compact-visual-inspection-microscope
[12:05] <Kostas_> Stereo scopes are good as well as cameras but they are too big to fit in between components. There are times where you need to inspect a solder joint from all sides, even from below!!
[12:06] <AndyEsser> I'm sorry - but no-one doing electronics has a desk that tidy and clean
[12:06] <AndyEsser> :P
[12:06] <eroomde> yes there is possibly some license ebing used there
[12:06] <eroomde> this is more like it http://m.eet.com/media/1123761/291880-jim_williams_in_his_lab_2007.jpg
[12:06] <AndyEsser> o good lord
[12:07] <Kostas_> Although it is probably the best practice to clean the dest prior to smd rework, believe me...
[12:07] <AndyEsser> I thought I was untidy...
[12:07] <Kostas_> Notice there are no smd stuff there, as far as I can see
[12:08] <Kostas_> You can't do that with smd, simply can't
[12:08] <AndyEsser> 2/3's of my work space - before I put everything back into the office - shame it's not still this tidy :(
[12:08] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/5XCRsMz+
[12:08] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/5XCRsMz
[12:09] <Kostas_> That is a much better one!
[12:09] <eroomde> i suspect he would have managed to do smd in there
[12:09] <Kostas_> I would personally paint the top whyte. It helps a lot finding the smd components when lost
[12:09] <realborg> looks way to clean for a WORKspace
[12:09] <AndyEsser> realborg: that was about an hour after moving the PC back in - I hadn't actually done any work at that point
[12:10] <realborg> obviously no work has been done at that place yet
[12:10] <Kostas_> Make sure you have enough ventilation in the room too
[12:11] <eroomde> the solder i just got smells very nice
[12:11] <Kostas_> I was scared when I saw what the solder smoke can do to a tube that is passing through
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[12:11] <AndyEsser> excuse poor quality (taken via webcam over RDP)
[12:11] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/vrY3BrP
[12:11] <AndyEsser> the other 1/3rd as of about 30 seconds ago :)
[12:11] <AndyEsser> bit more work has been done :)
[12:12] <Kostas_> The tube stoppled in a few days of use
[12:12] <fsphil> cosy
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[12:13] <fsphil> you need a new calendar
[12:13] <AndyEsser> I know
[12:13] <AndyEsser> both of those calendars are out of date
[12:13] <AndyEsser> but have info that is still relevant to this year
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[12:13] <Kostas_> here is mine, about a year ago http://5.55.90.71/balloon/DSC00336.jpg
[12:13] <realborg> nice place but too much daylight for a nerd ;)
[12:13] <AndyEsser> realborg: I'm at work during daylight hours
[12:13] <Kostas_> now it is much better and cleaner though
[12:13] <AndyEsser> plus a blind
[12:14] <AndyEsser> Kostas_: ah yes - the much underappreciated indoor release :)
[12:14] <fsphil> I rarely see daylight this time of year
[12:14] <Kostas_> Yes, I was measuring the payload capability
[12:14] <AndyEsser> fsphil: I go to work in the dark and come home in the dark
[12:14] <fsphil> same
[12:14] <AndyEsser> the only daylight I get is when I go out for a smoke :P
[12:14] <fsphil> not same
[12:15] <AndyEsser> heh
[12:15] <AndyEsser> o and if I'm being lazy and pop out for lunch
[12:15] <AndyEsser> like I'll do today, because I'm starving and freezing and need some hot food
[12:15] <fsphil> there is a mcdonalds and kfc just up the road from here. there are sometimes lazy lunches
[12:16] <AndyEsser> Yea, KFC oopened up here a couple months ago... 100m from the office
[12:16] <eroomde> after i tidied: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4nwq2vubb4nml3g/2013-05-21%2020.19.33.jpg?dl=0
[12:16] <AndyEsser> or there's the B&Q cafe, or the B&Q burger van
[12:16] <AndyEsser> plus Tesco
[12:16] <eroomde> has not been that tidy since
[12:16] <AndyEsser> very nice
[12:16] <AndyEsser> warm enough in the winter?
[12:17] <fsphil> oblig. penguin
[12:17] <fsphil> hey I have the same lamp/magnifier thing
[12:17] <AndyEsser> hehe
[12:17] <fsphil> you're right, it's not great other than as a light
[12:17] <eroomde> warm enough with a radiator yep
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[12:19] <fsphil> what's the yellow elsa thing? google's just giving me Frozen pictures
[12:19] <AndyEsser> looks like some sort of emergency mountain/wilderness pack type thing
[12:21] <AndyEsser> fsphil: Emergency Life Saving apparatus
[12:22] <AndyEsser> http://www.wisesafetyuk.com/images/productImages/pop/D11.ELSA10B.jpg
[12:22] <AndyEsser> I guess in case the solder fumes get too much :)
[12:23] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-57 after 038 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-57
[12:24] <fsphil> ah neat
[12:24] <fsphil> my job isn't nearly interesting enough to require that
[12:25] <fsphil> ah PS-57 isn't in a hurry to return to oz
[12:26] <AndyEsser> why would it be! :P
[12:30] <gonzo_> or in case someone had onions on their burger
[12:30] <AndyEsser> aww man
[12:30] <fsphil> need a full pressure suit for that
[12:30] <AndyEsser> now I want a burger :(
[12:30] <gonzo_> they used to have those things in server rooms where they had haylon drop extinguishers
[12:31] <gonzo_> think those were banned a while ago though
[12:31] <AndyEsser> my last company - the DC in the office had breathing apparatus in, it wasn't Haylon (since that's now banned in the UK) but it was something else that was quite bad to human life
[12:31] <AndyEsser> think it might've been CO2
[12:32] <gonzo_> after a fire alarm, last man out hit a break glass and the shutters came down followed by haylon. But they has a breating set in case someone was trapped
[12:32] <AndyEsser> Yea, the DC gave a 30 second alarm, and then the auto-suppression system kicks in
[12:32] <AndyEsser> can't risk waiting on someone to push a button!
[12:33] <gonzo_> the nuclear sites had them in some locations, but I have a feeling it was because of some chemical stuffs in the areas
[12:33] <russss> AFAIK all the halon replacements are theoretically survivable if you happen to get caught in them
[12:33] <AndyEsser> "theoretically"
[12:33] <AndyEsser> shall we do a practical experiment :)
[12:33] <gonzo_> it may have been a timed thing? The break glass may have been an emergencty opne
[12:33] <russss> well, people are cautious about it
[12:33] <AndyEsser> right, lunchtime
[12:33] <AndyEsser> back in a bit
[12:34] <russss> the most prevalent one is Inergen, which basically just adds enough nitrogen to the atmosphere to put the fire out, but not quite enough to suffocate you
[12:34] <russss> it also adds more CO2 to make you breathe faster
[12:35] <gonzo_> RS used to sell a small haylon set, with a combustible hose. So the hose easilly burned/melted and the gas spewed out. They ysed them in rack cabs and have seen similat on rally cars engine bays
[12:35] <russss> but AFAIK inergen deployment is borderline explosive, so you may not escape with your eardrums intact.
[12:36] <zyp> better deaf than dead
[12:36] <gonzo_> pardon?
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[12:40] Nick change: Randomskk -> adamgreig
[12:41] Nick change: adamgreig -> Guest13166
[12:42] Nick change: Guest13166 -> Randomskk
[12:46] <Kostas_> This thing works well. It is the one I have http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTAwWDUwMA==/z/drEAAOSw9r1V8IJ1/$_1.JPG
[12:46] <Kostas_> it just needs a good pressure if you do not want anything to escape the tube
[12:46] <Kostas_> It is better to such anything at the source
[12:47] <fsphil> I liked the look of the portable soldering iron mike had on his recent video
[12:47] <Kostas_> Mine did not have a tube and I made it using a whip antenna, so it is retractable and adjusted easily
[12:47] <Kostas_> Do you have a link?
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[12:48] Nick change: Kostas_ -> sv3ora
[12:48] <fsphil> https://youtu.be/sDMhh3p2nuM?t=839
[12:48] <fsphil> TS100
[12:49] <fsphil> there've been a few times I've needed to solder something away from mains
[12:49] <AndyEsser> why on earth does a portable soldering iron need a fancy screen like that?
[12:49] <sv3ora> but the screen is niiicee isn't it? :P
[12:49] <fsphil> a soldering iron that has firmware updates :)
[12:50] <sv3ora> Oh no! more M1cr0s0ft updates? :P
[12:51] <AndyEsser> I should probably add a decent soldering iron to my wishlist as well
[12:52] <fsphil> yeah. I was happy with mine until I used a metcal last year
[12:52] <fsphil> it was just so much nicer. hard to describe
[12:52] <sv3ora> * Now you can tweet from your soldering iron. Take it anywhere, on the beach, in the bathroom even under your pillow....
[12:52] <AndyEsser> I just picked up a £10 one from Maplin - it does the job for the moment
[12:52] <sv3ora> * the item everyone needs...
[12:52] <sv3ora> The tip is the trick
[12:53] <sv3ora> how quick does it wear
[12:53] <sv3ora> Cheap ones melt after a while...
[12:53] <AndyEsser> I imagine it'll wear out the tip very quickly
[12:53] <AndyEsser> also it's quite a wide tip
[12:53] <AndyEsser> so was very fiddly on stuff like the UBlox GPS chips
[12:53] <fsphil> I've a cheapy maplin one too. to be honest the tip is still fine, even after about 5 years
[12:53] <fsphil> fairly regular but light use
[12:53] <sv3ora> interesting. Wattage?
[12:54] <fsphil> checking
[12:54] <fsphil> 50W
[12:54] <fsphil> http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/maplin-50w-mains-solder-station-n78ar
[12:54] <fsphil> I got some finer tips for it
[12:55] <Vaizki> usually you don't really want a very fine tip though
[12:55] <AndyEsser> lol - the one I bought isn't even on their website
[12:55] <fsphil> the LED failed after about a week
[12:55] <fsphil> but the iron itself has been fine
[12:55] <AndyEsser> fsphil: but your one looks quite good for a cheapo one
[12:55] <Vaizki> not that I can even solder well but people who have the skills seem to use wider tips quite a bit
[12:55] <sv3ora> I had a good change on ebay, spending the same price as you but buying a second hand welled digital station (7-segment display)
[12:56] <fsphil> I was using the metcal with a stereo microscope too. I'd love to get one of those for home too
[12:56] <AndyEsser> "Heats up in _ONLY_ 10 minutes"
[12:57] <sv3ora> From my experience, for non smd work the best tips are the single side flat. the solder stays on that side and only at the tip of the tip
[12:57] <AndyEsser> http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/maplin-40w-mains-soldering-iron-kit-n72hy
[12:57] <fsphil> yeah I have one of those, it's great
[12:57] <AndyEsser> there we go - that's my one
[12:57] <sv3ora> with conical and screwdriver tips, the solger tends to go upwards.
[12:57] <fsphil> (the tip with one flat side)
[12:57] <fsphil> good for drag soldering soic parts
[12:57] <Vaizki> I have a xytronic lf2000 .. no idea if it's great but it's good enough for me to learn on :)
[12:58] <sv3ora> Came one... you have to spend a bit more on a soldering station!
[12:58] <sv3ora> it is THE TOOL to do all your work
[12:58] <fsphil> banggood.com seems a dodgey name for a site that sells electronics
[12:58] <fsphil> just looking at who sells the ts100
[12:59] <AndyEsser> sv3ora: I know I know - I was just in maplin, hadn't thought about needing a soldering iron, and deciding to pick it up
[12:59] <AndyEsser> got me going at least
[13:00] <gonzo_> my main iron is an old thermalock weller. 30yrs old but still keeps going (and tips still avail)
[13:00] <sv3ora> Ok fine for light average use then
[13:00] <gonzo_> it's an electronic version of the magnastat
[13:00] <Vaizki> wtcp?
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[13:00] <fsphil> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/catalog/soldertipcleaner-main.jpg
[13:00] <fsphil> find this is great for cleaning the tip
[13:00] <sv3ora> I am very pleased with Wellers, I own an antex once byt I stuck with weller. Never used a pace, too expensive
[13:00] <AndyEsser> sv3ora: yea, all I'm doing atm is breadboarding/prototyping stuff
[13:01] <AndyEsser> when I finally order PCBs etc I'll invest in a better soldering iron
[13:01] <Vaizki> it's a pain to learn to solder using a crappy iron
[13:01] <Vaizki> that's what put me off soldering for 20 years
[13:01] <zyp> proper tools is half the job
[13:01] <fsphil> very true
[13:01] <fsphil> wish I'd learned that sooner :)
[13:01] <sv3ora> fsphil these are great! The only disadvantage is that the solder bits sometimes are flawn apart on the desk
[13:02] <Vaizki> yes and once you get the skills, then you can manage with crappy tools in a pinch
[13:02] <sv3ora> depends of how you clean the tip
[13:02] <AndyEsser> I just put mine in the dishwasher
[13:02] <AndyEsser> :P
[13:02] <zyp> JBC makes some nice stuff too, had their nano station at a former employer
[13:02] <fsphil> there's some great engrish on http://www.banggood.com/TS100-Digital-OLED-Programable-Interface-DC-5525-Soldering-Iron-Station-Built-in-STM32-Chip-p-984214.html
[13:02] <zyp> I really want one of those for myself
[13:03] <Vaizki> Leading Pocket Times Intelligent Everywhere
[13:03] <Vaizki> ok!
[13:03] <fsphil> Successfully Done Your Job
[13:03] <sv3ora> It looks great indeed. Never used one
[13:03] <Vaizki> When You're Not Here, He's Waiting For You Quietly
[13:03] <fsphil> oh, creepy. "When You're Not Here, He's Waiting For you Quietly"
[13:04] <Vaizki> ok that's some scary shit
[13:04] <fsphil> hah
[13:04] <AndyEsser> lol
[13:04] <Vaizki> :)
[13:04] <fsphil> keep up in your hands
[13:04] <fsphil> think I'll get one later. need the shelves first
[13:05] <sv3ora> Are temperature curves programming too important? I do not know, never needed to use one
[13:05] <Randomskk> not in a hand iron
[13:05] <sv3ora> I think for most jobs it is better to just learn how to solder well
[13:05] <fsphil> you only really need those for ovens
[13:06] <sv3ora> Indeed
[13:06] <zyp> curves?
[13:06] <zyp> you only need a fixed tip temperature
[13:06] <zyp> that can be changed depending on solder type
[13:06] <sv3ora> It saus you can program your own temperature curves
[13:07] <sv3ora> I usually avoid something if it can be "charged through usb" It just reminds me all these Asian crappy electronics...
[13:08] <sv3ora> I agree the look is nice though for such a low price
[13:08] <fsphil> perfect for soldering one or two wires half way up a mountain
[13:08] <AndyEsser> heh
[13:08] <fsphil> which I needed to do a few weeks ago
[13:08] <AndyEsser> o?
[13:09] <fsphil> I've setup a webcam/weather station up a nearby mountain
[13:09] <Vaizki> I have a lighter gas powered iron in the boat :)
[13:09] <AndyEsser> Ah ok
[13:09] <sv3ora> Safer than propane, for sure
[13:09] <fsphil> http://piview.sanslogic.co.uk/webcam/image.jpeg
[13:09] <AndyEsser> fsphil: what are the rules about doing stuff like that?
[13:09] <fsphil> not the best view at the moment
[13:09] <Vaizki> rule 1: don't get caught
[13:10] <fsphil> no rules, just get permission from the land owner
[13:10] <AndyEsser> Yea, that's more what I Guess I was referring to
[13:10] Action: AndyEsser thinks about putting something like that at the top of Snowden
[13:11] <fsphil> try to keep it away from where people normally walk
[13:12] <AndyEsser> not quite sure what I'd have it do
[13:12] <AndyEsser> but do kind of like the idea of creating something that survives in a remote location without too much hassle
[13:13] <fsphil> this one has been quite a bit of hassle. mostly cheap chinese solar chargers
[13:13] <fsphil> mostly because of*
[13:13] <fsphil> first one exploded, second one just never worked well
[13:13] <AndyEsser> nice track record
[13:14] <fsphil> current one is working but there's been so little sunlight the past few weeks
[13:14] <AndyEsser> thought about adding a wind turbine type thing as well?
[13:16] <fsphil> yeah. though when we added the wind speed sensor, we found that 90% of the time the wind was below most turbines minimum
[13:16] <AndyEsser> ah
[13:16] <fsphil> the small ones anyway
[13:16] <fsphil> it's cheaper just to add more solar
[13:17] <fsphil> even if it is mostly overkill for the summer months
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[13:26] <sv3ora> I see the mikesellectrigstuff TS100 video presentation. The TS100 is actually quite good for a portable iron! I just thought it has a battery in but no.
[13:26] <Vaizki> mike has nice videos
[13:27] <Chimpusmaximus> No it needs 12v to 19v if i recall.
[13:27] <Vaizki> 12 to 24.. truck batteries etc
[13:28] <Chimpusmaximus> I got one a few months back as needed to replace an iron. Have to say i have found it very good, certainly improved my soldering (which was not hard)
[13:28] <sv3ora> It heats much better than my weller! and has stand by function based on internal accellerometer
[13:28] <sv3ora> This is useful for saving tip life
[13:29] <sv3ora> hm... interesting
[13:29] <fsphil> did you get it from banggood?
[13:29] <Chimpusmaximus> Yep
[13:29] <fsphil> I've never ordered from them before
[13:31] <Chimpusmaximus> I got a fair bit from them. Normally from eu side as then don't have to wait long. I always liked them as i could select postage options if i wanted quicker.
[13:31] <sv3ora> Quite a good tip selection too http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Replacement-Solder-Tip-For-TS100-Digital-LCD-Soldering-Iron-/131684013798?hash=item1ea8fa96e6:g:iJoAAOSwJcZWe9Lr
[13:31] <Chimpusmaximus> Had one or two orders a little slow but always turned up.
[13:32] <Chimpusmaximus> I'm sure a day or two ago they had it for under 40 quid
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[13:34] <Vaizki> how many amps does the TS100 draw?
[13:35] <Vaizki> would be quite handy in the boat tbh
[13:35] <sv3ora> There must be a manual for it
[13:36] <Vaizki> yea well it's easier to ask stupid questions than use google :)
[13:36] <Chimpusmaximus> http://imgmgr.banggood.com/images/upload/2015/11/TS100/TS100%20Soldering%20Iron%20Instruction%20Manual.pdf
[13:36] <Vaizki> thanks
[13:36] <fsphil> http://imgur.com/w4HIbnV
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[13:37] <fsphil> 1.4A at 12V
[13:37] <fsphil> 2.7 at 24
[13:37] <Vaizki> oh.. quite low. how is it 65W at 24V then.. :O
[13:38] <AndyEsser> 2.7A * 24v = 65W
[13:38] <Vaizki> maybe I'll stick with the gas on the boat then
[13:38] <Vaizki> it's only for emergency use really
[13:38] <fsphil> I'd need about 20V for it to be as hot as my current iron
[13:39] <cm13g09> If anyone fancies a giggle
[13:39] <Chimpusmaximus> I normally power mine from 12v 2amp dc adapter.
[13:39] <cm13g09> we've just had a client contact us about moving office. They want us to quote for the power sockets as well as the data outlets.
[13:39] <Randomskk> power is a bit misleading
[13:39] <Randomskk> my smaller metcal is 40W
[13:39] <Randomskk> probably eats that 65W iron for breakfast
[13:40] <Vaizki> of course it does...
[13:40] <sv3ora> Sure, it is also how well is the heat conducted on the very edge of the tip
[13:40] <sv3ora> and how fast
[13:40] <Vaizki> but apparently Chimpusmaximus is happy with the 17W performance on that..?
[13:40] <cm13g09> the sparky we've got quoting has specced 74 double sockets, 14 single sockets, 1 x 32A ceeform.... and 4 ring mains on the DB to run it from :/
[13:40] <sv3ora> the Watts represent the heater consumption not the tip temperature and quality
[13:40] <fsphil> it's an 8.8 ohm resistor basically
[13:41] <cm13g09> (if anyone fancies doing the maths on that.... it's painful!)
[13:41] <Vaizki> we don't do ring mains so it's easier ;)
[13:41] <Vaizki> I say just overkill on the breaker panel, it's not that expensive to get it done right once
[13:41] <gonzo_> cm13g09, is that for your house then?:
[13:42] <Vaizki> upgrading it is a bit more painful
[13:42] <cm13g09> gonzo_: no
[13:42] <cm13g09> client at work
[13:42] <Vaizki> 88 sockets is a bit much for a house
[13:42] <Randomskk> lol, >500A per ring main
[13:42] <Randomskk> should be fine
[13:42] <Randomskk> only 250A in each direction right ;)
[13:42] <gonzo_> I;ve not got any 32A sockets on my house ccts, a good few 16A ones though
[13:42] <cm13g09> Randomskk: it's quite special
[13:43] <AndyEsser> cm13g09: 534A per main...
[13:44] <cm13g09> AndyEsser: quite
[13:44] <cm13g09> at worst case
[13:44] <gonzo_> a quick stock take, I have 73 13A outlets (counting doubles as 2) in my house
[13:44] <gonzo_> and there is still another workshop in mid build that will have a few more
[13:44] <AndyEsser> I need to replace one of the sockets in my kitchen
[13:44] <AndyEsser> completely steel/chrome finish kitchen
[13:45] <AndyEsser> excpet 1 socket that is boring plain white
[13:45] <AndyEsser> (currently hidden behind cereal box to stop from upsetting me)
[13:45] <gonzo_> you don't have to have a ring main tripped at the total max load, just for the cable rating
[13:45] <gonzo_> I have tx 16A outlets too
[13:45] <gonzo_> 7x
[13:46] <AndyEsser> I'd love to put some proper trunking with decent amounts of sockets + RJ45 ports in, around my office
[13:46] <AndyEsser> but I don't own the house so can't go doing that
[13:46] <cm13g09> AndyEsser: we also have a problem in the office
[13:46] <Vaizki> it's kinda weird that the UK has such wildly different mains wiring conventions than we have here
[13:47] <AndyEsser> cm13g09: o?
[13:47] <gonzo_> put some on a plank and anchor that to the back of the work desk etc
[13:47] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: thought about doing that - but then it'd be a glorified extension cable, and I'd likely overload a single socket
[13:47] <AndyEsser> although...
[13:47] <Vaizki> here there are no rings, every grid connection is 3-phase and no fuses in plugs etc..
[13:47] <gonzo_> or rawlplug to the wall so you can easilly repair it later
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[13:47] <AndyEsser> given size of desks... maybe 3/4 double sockets
[13:48] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: there's a reason that the UK is widely regarded to have some of the best electrical systems in the world
[13:48] <eroomde> i'll have about 25 on my workbench
[13:48] <gonzo_> you can't overloiad a socket if you fuse it correctly
[13:48] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: s/overload/blow fuse
[13:48] <AndyEsser> :P
[13:48] <Vaizki> AndyEsser, ummm? :)
[13:48] <cm13g09> AndyEsser: easiest to see it
[13:48] <qyx> uh
[13:49] <Vaizki> I don't see any benefit in a ring-based system except skimping on wire diameter :D
[13:49] <cm13g09> but basically sockets and data are a million miles from the desks....
[13:49] <gonzo_> realistiocally you tend not to have much in the way of total current draw, unless you have high wattage heating kit
[13:49] <AndyEsser> true
[13:50] <AndyEsser> I might do the whole backboard on desk thing then sometime
[13:50] <gonzo_> though take care if you have big psu's with inrush. You can pop fuses if the bench supply is intertrupted and they all come up together
[13:50] <AndyEsser> as it is, when I have the soldering iron plugged in, I have to sit with the 4-way extension in my lap to give me enough reach on the cable :P
[13:51] Nick change: Randomskk -> adamgreig
[13:51] <eroomde> i could put a soft-start on my PSUs
[13:52] bottle (~user5580@5.238.160.118) joined #highaltitude.
[13:52] <eroomde> but i will have an e-stop to isolate my desk on the new one
[13:53] <Vaizki> e-stop?
[13:53] <bottle> hi
[13:53] <eroomde> http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/38087-2549713.jpg
[13:53] <eroomde> grettings bottle
[13:53] <Vaizki> ah
[13:54] <bottle> o thank you
[13:55] <adamgreig> ugh why are magnetic buzzers so high current and piezo ones so large
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[13:55] <adamgreig> i want the handful of mA the piezo draws but in the 5mm package of the magnetic buzzer please
[13:56] <Vaizki> umm.. bottle's IP was interesting so looked it up...
[13:56] <Vaizki> route: 5.238.0.0/16
[13:56] <Vaizki> descr: Telecommunication Company of Iran
[13:57] <Vaizki> maybe he got censored :)
[13:57] <eroomde> adamgreig: what are you alarmin?
[13:57] <adamgreig> more rocket flight computers
[13:57] <gonzo_> I have a kenwood dc psu that has a huce inrush. Takes out the trips in the workshop. Have had to change that cct for C rated trips
[14:00] <eroomde> funsome
[14:00] <adamgreig> want to see what i can fit into a smallish form factor. quite a lot it turns out
[14:02] <adamgreig> but 13mm diameter buzzers are a bit tedious
[14:04] <eroomde> tiny trackers in the tones of very small boosted darts would be a fun thing I think
[14:04] <adamgreig> yea
[14:04] <adamgreig> so atm i'm targeting AA-sized
[14:04] <adamgreig> same as the shrew-us
[14:05] <adamgreig> 16mm by 60mm and run off a lithium
[14:05] <adamgreig> which is enough for 9dof imu, high-g accel, baro, gps, radio transceiver, microsd, and maybe a beeper
[14:05] <adamgreig> and probably some pyro channels can squeeze in somewhere
[14:05] <adamgreig> so you fit inside 1" tube with room to spare
[14:07] <eroomde> yeah plenty
[14:07] <adamgreig> and get like 20hrs from a single cell
[14:08] <eroomde> there's a LIS[something] imu i was looking at for something else super-cheaps at woork
[14:08] <eroomde> very small and very cheap
[14:08] <adamgreig> the ST ones?
[14:08] <eroomde> ring s abell
[14:08] <eroomde> LIS06 maybe?
[14:08] <eroomde> could dig it up
[14:08] <adamgreig> LSM9DS0
[14:08] <adamgreig> LSM6DS* is the accel+gyro
[14:08] <adamgreig> 9 has a magno too
[14:08] <adamgreig> i would look at the mpu-9250 instead
[14:08] <adamgreig> smaller and better
[14:08] <eroomde> LSM9
[14:08] <adamgreig> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QJpGSiBPj1UtTcZAgdapOyOPNWukBqsHXa7HGoeG9JE/edit?usp=sharing
[14:09] <eroomde> yeah
[14:09] <adamgreig> I made that the other day
[14:09] <eroomde> that one
[14:09] <adamgreig> quick and dirty comparison of the LSM9, the MPU, with some ADIS ones
[14:09] <adamgreig> my conclusion was that the mpu-9250 is better really
[14:09] <adamgreig> it's also very very small
[14:10] <eroomde> that's interesting
[14:10] <adamgreig> 3x3mm or something
[14:10] <eroomde> having read that app note i'd really want to test them all again acceleration and vibration
[14:10] <eroomde> i'll see if i can find it actually
[14:10] <adamgreig> indeed
[14:10] <eroomde> less busy now than when we last talked aboput this
[14:10] <adamgreig> I'm sure something has to give between a £400 ADIS thing and this £5 3x3x1mm thing
[14:10] <eroomde> but i wonder if you could put a breakout board for each gyro along a bike wheel
[14:10] <adamgreig> because the specs are remarkably close
[14:10] <adamgreig> so some sort of 'dynamic performance'
[14:11] <eroomde> and change the radius while keeping angular rate constant, just to quickly see how changing acceleration affects rate
[14:11] <adamgreig> neat
[14:11] <adamgreig> yea
[14:11] <adamgreig> kind of tempted to make this AAA sized but you'd have to lose something
[14:11] <eroomde> clips to the pokes, if you see what i mean
[14:11] <adamgreig> whereas this big I can perhaps also fit a bluetooth transceiver on for talking to a phone
[14:12] <adamgreig> going to be a bit interesting to route
[14:12] <adamgreig> the cusf imu project has done routing their first rev pcb apparently
[14:12] <adamgreig> for that cheaper ADIS
[14:13] <adamgreig> so might have one of those hooked up and playing with soonish
[14:13] <adamgreig> trying to convince them to stick a footprint for an mpu-9250 underneath the ADIS mount so we could use that instead on some of the PCBs
[14:13] <adamgreig> then you could do a very easy like-for-like comparison
[14:14] <eroomde> yeah for sho
[14:16] <eroomde> so about 6 yrs ago (last time i used an mpu it turns out) the registers had to be reverse engineered because the datasheet was behind an nda, and no one could find out what dynamic assumptions were made inside some onboard sensor fusion engine, and and and
[14:16] <eroomde> what's the story like now?
[14:16] <adamgreig> register map is here http://43zrtwysvxb2gf29r5o0athu.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/MPU-9250-Register-Map.pdf
[14:16] <adamgreig> weird URL from their actual website: http://www.invensense.com/products/motion-tracking/9-axis/mpu-9250/
[14:16] <adamgreig> I don't think the dynamic assumptions in their sensor fusion are public, but that's optional
[14:16] <adamgreig> you can just get the actual sensor readings
[14:17] <eroomde> fine
[14:17] <eroomde> is it i2c only?
[14:17] <adamgreig> no
[14:17] <adamgreig> spi/i2c
[14:17] <eroomde> fine
[14:17] <eroomde> noted
[14:17] <eroomde> thanks
[14:18] <adamgreig> the fancy-pants tactical grade ADIS has an insane ADC
[14:18] <adamgreig> 3E-7 degrees per second per LSB
[14:18] <adamgreig> 1.2E-5 milliG per LSB
[14:18] <adamgreig> horrifying resolution
[14:19] <adamgreig> sort of gyro you can dead reckon your way out of a burning building in the dark on one foot with
[14:20] <Laurenceb_> ah the 9250 is out
[14:20] <Laurenceb_> is it shipping?
[14:20] <adamgreig> digikey are shipping it
[14:20] <Laurenceb_> cool
[14:20] <adamgreig> it's been out for a bit
[14:20] <Laurenceb_> I dont keep up with this stuff
[14:20] <Laurenceb_> their accel was very poor
[14:21] <adamgreig> in the 9150?
[14:22] <Laurenceb_> yes
[14:22] <adamgreig> interesting, in what ways?
[14:22] <Laurenceb_> ah I see now, 9250 is no better :-/
[14:22] <Laurenceb_> poor cross axis, nonlinearity and temperature drift
[14:23] <eroomde> http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/technical-articles/MS-2158.pdf
[14:23] <Laurenceb_> freescale made the best accelerometers last time I checked
[14:23] <eroomde> i don't know if that was it but there is a large overlap in the topics
[14:23] <eroomde> i really need a personal wiki to store all these notes
[14:23] <eroomde> notebooks have a habit of wandering off
[14:25] <Laurenceb_> I found accelerometer spec was important for good gps/imu EKF performance
[14:25] <Laurenceb_> but it depends on the dynamics of the stuff you are measuring a lot too I guess
[14:26] <eroomde> but that paper effectively makes the case for vibration-rejection being a more important criteria in real conditions than bias
[14:27] <adamgreig> lol their table 1
[14:28] <adamgreig> all "high performance" but the AD part cleans up
[14:29] <Laurenceb_> what a surprise
[14:30] <AndyEsser> I really wish my local maplin's cable options weren't limited to red... and black
[14:30] <Laurenceb_> peabody124 from #taulabs is the EKF god
[14:30] <Laurenceb_> I think he finally managed to write something that was stable with 9150 accel after a lot of failed attempts
[14:31] <Laurenceb_> but when I tried a more n00b approach it had poor stability :-/
[14:32] <Laurenceb_> there is a lot to be said for the ardupilot attitude estimator
[14:32] <Laurenceb_> at least its pretty stable, even if the performance is piss poor
[14:32] <eroomde> AndyEsser: just get a farnell account
[14:32] <eroomde> maplins arn't worth the bother
[14:32] <eroomde> don't get anything from them unless it's 6.30pm and you need it by 7.30pm and have a car
[14:32] <AndyEsser> maplins is local and I can walk to it and forego waiting on delivery
[14:32] <adamgreig> it's not hard to make something stable if you don't care much about performance :P
[14:32] <AndyEsser> if I plan ahead then I typically don't use maplin
[14:32] <Laurenceb_> heh yeah
[14:32] <eroomde> given you don't have half the stuff you need yet, that's stupid
[14:32] <adamgreig> farnell is next day delivery if you order before 8pm
[14:33] <eroomde> you can wait for next-day delivery and get the right thing
[14:33] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Even CPC are better than Maplin! (their part of Farnell now)
[14:35] <eroomde> farnell actually sell the right thing usually to do whatever you are doing to as high a standard as it can be done
[14:35] <eroomde> it has all the milspec grade connectors, aircraft-spec wiring and so on
[14:36] <AndyEsser> eroomde: you mean I can't use salvaged PC cables in aircraft stuff? d'oh!
[14:36] <eroomde> you joke
[14:36] <gonzo_> RS will sell the right thing, but then you get an email saying it is out of stock, restock in 2 weeks. After two weeks, they will bump it forward another 2 weeks
[14:36] <eroomde> but once you use the double-walled stuff in combat situation you'll not want to go back
[14:36] <gonzo_> and repeat
[14:36] <AndyEsser> eroomde: heh
[14:37] <eroomde> not such an issue for habs as the environemtn is p[retty benign, mechanically
[14:37] <eroomde> but for temperature
[14:37] <eroomde> but if you're doing something with vibration, heat, corrosive fluids, or all three, getting the right stuff is a very good investment
[14:38] <AndyEsser> Yea, I can imagine
[14:38] <gonzo_> unless it's in the engine bay of a car, then use the cheapest crap that lucas sell
[14:38] <eroomde> i have replaced some stuff in my car with spec55 actually
[14:41] <Vaizki> if you think cars have it bad, you should see some of the electrical installs on boats.. :O
[14:41] <eroomde> i think adam used spec55 for some internal wiring on the firing control box
[14:41] <eroomde> which is gratuitous in precisely the right kind of way
[14:42] <adamgreig> http://i.imgur.com/wurtEmQ.jpg
[14:42] <AndyEsser> I suspect you can never be too careful with something like that
[14:42] <adamgreig> sadly i don't think i have a photo of the full thing to hand
[14:42] <adamgreig> but it has about twice as much wiring
[14:43] <eroomde> i miss seeing the tracks with white pcb resist
[14:43] <adamgreig> yea
[14:43] <adamgreig> green is really best for that it seems
[14:43] <Vaizki> where'd the case come from?
[14:44] <adamgreig> hammond iirc
[14:45] <adamgreig> https://www.dropbox.com/sc/xudymnmolll1de9/AAC1P2Ti2JBq-2AVov98FyzWa
[14:45] <Vaizki> ah must be this one http://www.hammondmfg.com/1553T.htm
[14:45] <adamgreig> yep
[14:48] <Laurenceb_> its all nice and pro... until it comes to rfm module
[14:49] <adamgreig> lol
[14:49] <adamgreig> not my pcb
[14:49] <Laurenceb_> fairdoos :D
[14:49] <Laurenceb_> not sure I'd trust one of those things with explosives
[14:49] <adamgreig> it's got an application layer HMAC and auth stuff
[14:49] <adamgreig> so worst case is it fails to fire the explosives we figured
[14:50] <adamgreig> it's lora too as it happens
[14:50] <Laurenceb_> ah ok
[14:50] <adamgreig> (I mean, the processors on either end are doing their own hmac, on top of what the rfm provides)
[14:50] <Laurenceb_> yeah the lora ones are probably more well behaved
[14:50] <Laurenceb_> ok I see
[14:50] <adamgreig> hm
[14:51] <adamgreig> wouldn't say they were much better but probably not going to generate complete nonsense I guess
[14:51] <Laurenceb_> for the rockoon launch controller I use si4463 with a "secret" command string
[14:51] <Laurenceb_> but the code is on github so...
[14:51] <adamgreig> lol
[14:51] <chris_99> haha
[14:52] <adamgreig> we spent a while considering that sort of issue
[14:52] <Laurenceb_> itd be changed prior to launch :D
[14:52] <adamgreig> lots of good ways to solve it
[14:52] <Laurenceb_> actually iirc I added a config file on the µSD card that sets all that stuff
[14:53] <Laurenceb_> also you need to send the arm command first, which only stays valid for one minute
[14:58] <SpeedEvil> I suspect the major issue is probably finger trouble on the ground.
[14:58] <SpeedEvil> rather than stray activations by interference
[14:58] <SpeedEvil> (not that the latter needs ignored)
[14:59] <adamgreig> that's what key switches are for :p
[14:59] <AndyEsser> hmm, it's an interesting (albeit likely solved) problem -might have to mock up some code to figure out a good process for secure launching :)
[14:59] <adamgreig> https://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/22087727498/in/album-72157659948759136/
[14:59] <adamgreig> https://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/22275691805/in/album-72157659948759136/
[15:00] <Laurenceb_> very nice
[15:00] <AndyEsser> that's so cool
[15:00] <AndyEsser> I wanna do that
[15:00] <adamgreig> on the other end of the radio:
[15:00] <adamgreig> https://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/22285995191/in/album-72157659948759136/
[15:00] <adamgreig> https://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/22275459455/in/album-72157659948759136/
[15:01] <adamgreig> https://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/22262618042/in/album-72157659948759136/
[15:01] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: so quick question... what's the purpose of using RF rather than say, a long cable?
[15:01] <adamgreig> the cable would need to be really long
[15:01] <adamgreig> and also therefore big and heavy
[15:01] <adamgreig> awkward to transport
[15:01] <adamgreig> easily tripped over
[15:01] <adamgreig> we're talking >300m
[15:01] <adamgreig> huge pain
[15:01] <AndyEsser> Ah ok
[15:01] <AndyEsser> fair enough :)
[15:02] <adamgreig> the first version of our firing system was actually cable, 100m reel
[15:02] <adamgreig> nice to only need a battery on one end, but otherwise a gigantic pain
[15:02] <AndyEsser> What sort of voltage/power do the igniters need?
[15:02] <adamgreig> meh
[15:02] <AndyEsser> Doesn't need to be too big a battery does it at the receiving end?
[15:02] <adamgreig> maybe 12V and something like around about an amp
[15:02] <Laurenceb_> depends on the igniter :P
[15:02] <adamgreig> but yea it depends a lot
[15:02] <Laurenceb_> I'm using supercaps
[15:03] <adamgreig> some of them will probably go with a good AA battery
[15:03] <adamgreig> others are intentionally very insensitive and need quite a lot of juice
[15:03] <adamgreig> in this case each channel on that box is good to 15A
[15:03] <AndyEsser> Yea, I guess needing a decent amount is a safety measure in itself
[15:03] <SpeedEvil> adamgreig: is this for use at altitude?
[15:03] <adamgreig> no
[15:03] <adamgreig> it's a bit big and heavy for that
[15:04] <Laurenceb_> supposedly too much juice can also be a bad thing
[15:04] <adamgreig> this is strictly ground testing
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> ah
[15:04] <Laurenceb_> you can blow it too quickly
[15:04] <adamgreig> and ground firing to be fair
[15:04] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: no supposedly about it
[15:04] <eroomde> categorically
[15:04] <adamgreig> the 15A is useful for valves
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> adamgreig: I was going tocomment on testing,and Vgs(th) shift at -40C
[15:04] <Laurenceb_> ok :P
[15:04] <AndyEsser> I'd love to get into some rocket stuff - but will start with a small HAB :)
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> AndyEsser: Picos are an interesting first step
[15:05] <eroomde> that's why i put current limiting on igniter circuits
[15:05] <adamgreig> quite divergent from rockets though
[15:05] <adamgreig> eroomde: do you just use a big resistor?
[15:05] <eroomde> 99% of the time
[15:05] <adamgreig> I struggle to find good specs for e-matches for model/amateur rocket igniters
[15:05] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: both involve RF, electronics and "going up" :)
[15:05] <eroomde> for an esa project they wanted an actual controlled current thing once
[15:05] <eroomde> meh
[15:05] <adamgreig> even the metrons are a bit weird
[15:06] <adamgreig> with their lower firing current for pulses than DC
[15:06] <eroomde> but a big 2-ohm resistor (or similar) is ususally fine
[15:06] <Laurenceb_> I'm using some j-tek igniters that take 1.35A (recommended)
[15:06] <Laurenceb_> firing with a supercap
[15:06] <adamgreig> 1.35A but do they have a specified resistance?
[15:06] <Laurenceb_> yes
[15:06] <Laurenceb_> 1.1ohm
[15:06] <adamgreig> ok
[15:06] <adamgreig> that's nice
[15:06] <Laurenceb_> well I only have a mass budget of 1 gram, so yes it is :D
[15:07] <eroomde> but if they want constant current, it's just an lm317 in a to-8 package with the feedback across a shunt resistor
[15:07] <adamgreig> eroomde: our firing boxes have 2.5R with about 30W power dissipation https://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/21654467333
[15:07] <adamgreig> fe
[15:07] <adamgreig> that box is mostly filled with two chunky resistors
[15:08] <adamgreig> seems a bit inelegant
[15:08] <eroomde> but robust
[15:08] <adamgreig> worked very well though
[15:08] <eroomde> go with the lm317 if you want to elegant it up a bit
[15:08] <eroomde> about as bomb-proof
[15:08] <adamgreig> mm
[15:09] <adamgreig> Laurenceb_: so that igniter is almost perfect to fire off a single AA
[15:09] <adamgreig> convenient
[15:09] <eroomde> and actually it gives you a large tolerance to input voltage and igniter wiring length
[15:09] <adamgreig> yea indeed
[15:09] <Laurenceb_> adamgreig: if you can import it
[15:10] <adamgreig> Laurenceb_: ah. sigh. always the problem
[15:10] <Laurenceb_> they ship with smaller Cesaroni reloads but are hard to import individually
[15:10] <eroomde> sorry not to-8, i'm talking bollocks (that's soemthing else i've been doing recently)
[15:10] <eroomde> to-3
[15:10] <Laurenceb_> I don't have any I can spare, sorry :P
[15:10] <eroomde> the big cans with the heatsing screw tabs
[15:10] <adamgreig> not to-220?
[15:10] <eroomde> no
[15:10] <eroomde> they're a lot higher power rating than to-220
[15:10] <adamgreig> ah yea those to-3
[15:11] <adamgreig> chunky
[15:11] <eroomde> yep
[15:12] <eroomde> so that means you can use them with whatever's about - a 6V 4xaa pack to a 36V lipo pack and still get your 1A (or whatever it is you need)
[15:13] <eroomde> for added sexiness, make the loop current selectable with a nice automative rotatry knob 2-pole knob selecting the shunt resistor
[15:13] <adamgreig> hah yep
[15:13] <eroomde> grahill series 56 is good ;)
[15:13] <eroomde> grayhill*
[15:13] <adamgreig> though given this already has a microcontroller and radio link to a handheld, buncha relays and do it over the radio :p
[15:14] <eroomde> yeah indeed. guild that lilly
[15:14] <adamgreig> hmm though I suppose we could actually just make a new current limiting box that plugs in to the existing setup
[15:14] <adamgreig> just replaces the resistors
[15:14] <adamgreig> that'd be nice
[15:17] <eroomde> i'd add polarity protection tho
[15:17] <eroomde> p-ch mosfet or something
[15:18] <eroomde> just because banana plugs have a habit of making sensible engineers swap the colours
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[15:32] <gonzo_> I don't use them, as I can't be trusted with non polarised connectors
[15:42] <adamgreig> eroomde: does it matter?
[15:42] <adamgreig> the banana plugs go to an igniter
[15:42] <adamgreig> they tend to not be very polarised
[15:42] <adamgreig> https://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/22262618042/in/album-72157659948759136/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/22285995191/in/album-72157659948759136/
[15:43] <adamgreig> the part that attaches to the actual firing box is not banana plugs (that would be disappointing)
[15:43] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: do you have a favourite of the actual launch platform thingy?
[15:43] <AndyEsser> s/favourite/photo
[15:43] <AndyEsser> apparently I need more coffee
[15:43] <adamgreig> https://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/albums/72157659948759136 is the whole set
[15:44] <eroomde> adamgreig: oh, no, this was for feed in
[15:44] <eroomde> not applicable to what you just posted
[15:46] <AndyEsser> adamgreig: very cool :) thanks
[15:46] <eroomde> there is a man that has not had a great deal of sleep recently https://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/22088674229/in/album-72157659948759136/
[15:46] <AndyEsser> where in the US was that? Mojava desert?
[15:46] <adamgreig> black rock
[15:47] <AndyEsser> cool
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=38148.0;attach=1091942;image - wow
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> (sunrise on F9, with crew around it preparing to lift)
[16:09] <adamgreig> eroomde: put most of the passives on this board now too. only 66 0402s so far :p
[16:09] <adamgreig> routing is looking less and less fun by the minute
[16:09] <eroomde> which board sorry?
[16:10] <eroomde> oh the AA
[16:10] <adamgreig> yea
[16:10] <eroomde> sorry thought you meant physically solodering
[16:10] <eroomde> soldering*
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[16:24] <kokey> soldiering
[16:25] <eroomde> feels like it sometimes
[16:26] <R6mco> yo! decoded PS-57 also with JT9 :-))
[16:26] <R6mco> around 1602 UTC
[16:51] <UpuWork> does that not upload ?
[16:51] <UpuWork> I've had to stop soldering as I've knackered my one remaiing tip
[16:56] <eroomde> giggle
[16:56] <eroomde> you should get an iron that has auto-sleep in the holder
[16:56] <eroomde> extends the life
[16:56] <AndyEsser> eroomde: started on the vino?
[16:57] <eroomde> no
[16:57] <eroomde> i don't think i've ever called wine 'vino'
[16:58] <AndyEsser> You totes should!
[16:58] <AndyEsser> :)
[17:00] <Laurenceb_> PS-57 is going to take duration record 2nd place from CNSP shortly
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[17:03] <R6mco> again a WSPR decode from PS-57 here:
[17:03] <R6mco> 2016-01-08 17:00 VK3YT 10.140160 -21 1 MF68 1 PA3FYM2 JO22nf 11396 324
[17:19] <SM0ULC-Reb> :)
[17:20] <Laurenceb_> R6mco: where are you?
[17:21] <R6mco> and another JT9 decode here around 1704 UTC
[17:21] <R6mco> I am in Netherlands
[17:21] <R6mco> see tracker.habhub.org , select PS-57
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[17:24] <Laurenceb_> haha cool
[17:24] <Laurenceb_> 11414km
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[17:25] <R6mco> yep
[17:25] <R6mco> which is almost 460000 km/Watt
[17:27] <eroomde> comparable to the distance to the moon
[17:27] <R6mco> rgoer
[17:27] <R6mco> roger*
[17:27] <Laurenceb_> aiui CNSP were using custom envelopes
[17:27] <Laurenceb_> so they are going to get beaten by a party balloon, crazy
[17:28] <R6mco> there are always two to tango
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[17:29] <R6mco> also the receiving side has to be taken into account
[17:30] <tweetBot> @benbrpi: Excellent article on @Raspberry_Pi in @pcpro. David Moss covers 'orgy of fun' learning to #HAB with @daveake #UKHAS https://t.co/qZf1VsvJpu
[17:31] <fsphil> fifty shades of hab
[17:32] <R6mco> hoppa, again a decode:
[17:32] <R6mco> 2016-01-08 17:30 VK3YT 10.140161 -16 1 MF68 1 PA3FYM2 JO22nf 11396 324
[17:35] <R6mco> -16 (!!) that is strong !
[17:36] <russss> good propagation
[17:37] Nick change: realborg -> RealBorg
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[17:38] <R6mco> yep, good prop and RX :-)
[17:47] <Laurenceb_> what antenna do you have?
[17:48] <Laurenceb_> odd the people who hang out on nasaspaceflight
[17:48] <Laurenceb_> http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37390.msg1372218#msg1372218
[17:53] <Laurenceb_> why does he have time for those loons
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> Quite
[18:00] <SpeedEvil> His conclusions are a bit shaky.
[18:04] <Laurenceb_> maybe he can find a job for Monroe
[18:04] <SpeedEvil> For example,he's assuming that all rockets launch full
[18:04] <SpeedEvil> JASON, for example, is a very light payload as a sole customer, so the argument that there is payload loss doing RTLS is bogus
[18:04] <SpeedEvil> ah - someone addressedthat next post
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[18:53] <Laurenceb_> wow
[18:53] <Laurenceb_> http://www.tadiranbat.com/pdf.php?id=HLC-1550A
[18:53] <Laurenceb_> 20% of best lithium energy density
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[19:07] <Lunar_Lander> evening
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[19:19] <BARC> If anyone is interested, I've just noticed that a tv show that I did a hab launch for is going to be on BBC2 tonight at 8:30
[19:20] <chris_99> cool, what's the show?
[19:20] <BARC> its called what to buy and why, pretty sure our segment should be on tonights show
[19:20] <BARC> I can't promise it'll be any good - conditions on the day were fairly horrible so it was fast up and down
[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> royal wives at war
[19:20] <BARC> I also can't promise that they won't oversell facts or that they edit us to oversell facts!
[19:21] <fsphil> SPACE!!!
[19:21] <fsphil> that's the usual one
[19:21] <BARC> that'll almost certainly come up
[19:21] <Lunar_Lander> what about "HAB TV Bingo"?
[19:21] <BARC> I have a feeling they got us to crack on that one a couple of times too
[19:21] <Lunar_Lander> with stuff like "space" "hot air balloon" and so on
[19:21] Action: fsphil gets the drinks ready
[19:22] <fsphil> pepsi max naturally
[19:22] <BARC> It was a "drop test" of two phone cases too so the science will almost certainly be pretty shoddy
[19:22] <BARC> and by drop test I mean controlled parachute descent
[19:22] <BARC> that could have been done from 2 feet
[19:23] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:23] <SpeedEvil> BARC: Well- that depends
[19:24] <SpeedEvil> BARC: Does the phone case have a BRS.
[19:24] <SpeedEvil> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_Recovery_Systems ()
[19:25] <BARC> it does not
[19:25] <BARC> it's orange though
[19:25] <BARC> the parachute that is
[19:25] <SpeedEvil> I note that >>90% of small plane crashes are survivable - as an aside - even without BRS
[19:26] <BARC> I assume most are more of a "controlled crash down" as opposed to a full power smash into a mountain
[19:27] <SpeedEvil> yes
[19:27] <SpeedEvil> http://www.equipped.com/watertrees.htm - worth a read
[19:28] <BARC> looks interesting, will save for later
[19:29] <BARC> have had some interesting experiences in planes.. explodey engine and being chased by fire engines down the runway
[19:29] <BARC> ... this one... http://i.imgur.com/RjWu99c.jpg
[19:30] <BARC> was a particularly interesting moment
[19:30] <Upu> do not like
[19:30] <eroomde> that's a photo and a half
[19:31] <BARC> a still from video shortly after takeoff
[19:31] <BARC> I know its "safe"... but still...
[19:31] <fsphil> wow
[19:31] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: the BRS was actually a bit of a workaround for qualifying a design that couldn;t recover from flat spins
[19:31] <fsphil> I flew through a thunderstorm once, never seen a flash that close. amazing
[19:32] <BARC> bonus picture here http://i.imgur.com/ygelDFo.jpg
[19:32] <BARC> and here http://i.imgur.com/K9lh4pb.jpg
[19:34] <Lunar_Lander> ohhhhhhhhh
[19:34] <fsphil> very nice
[19:34] <fsphil> envy
[19:35] <BARC> it's good to come away with pictures... not exactly fun to fly through!
[19:36] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:36] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Interesting
[19:37] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: the 'watertrees' thing says if you basically manage to come down under control at minimum flying speed on nearly any terrain at all, you have a decent chance.
[19:38] <eroomde> i don't know enough to have an opinion about that
[19:38] <eroomde> but having been tangentially involved professionally with BRS systems and what motivates them...
[19:38] <SpeedEvil> Analysis of FAA crash records of GA.
[19:38] <SpeedEvil> Interesting.
[19:43] <Laurenceb_> this thing would need it
[19:43] <Laurenceb_> http://www.ehang.com/ehang184/specs/
[19:44] <SpeedEvil> ...
[19:44] <SpeedEvil> Quite
[19:47] <eroomde> it comes with built in tether-severers
[19:47] <BARC> nice
[19:47] <SpeedEvil> Hmm. I don't know how disk loading / power consumption works for coaxial props
[19:54] <SpeedEvil> Neglecting that, 1.5m props = 6.75m^2 of disk area. Claimed power use at hover is 37kW. 47kg/m^2 of disk.
[19:54] <SpeedEvil> That is three times the loading of the robinson R22
[19:58] <SpeedEvil> ...
[19:58] <SpeedEvil> I don't see how it works, unless they're counting 'hover' as ground-effect
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[20:01] <SpeedEvil> https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nMV-TkaX-9cC&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104&dq=%22disk+loading%22+coaxial&source=bl&ots=CqcQheZGfw&sig=jEfdDsX9MTgGbLFaUYAMJLG2eu0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwir1pW5gJvKAhULshQKHew7BLkQ6AEIJTAB#v=onepage&q=%22disk%20loading%22%20coaxial&f=false - seems relevant - I need to read after more caffine.
[20:02] <SpeedEvil> Also - unless I'm confused, the top layer of props seem ideally placed for a shed blade to behead the pilot, and the lower ones to disembowel.
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[20:13] <SpeedEvil> ^effective disk loading is 40 or so kg/m^2 due to coax
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[20:21] <SpeedEvil> Using the chinook max-takeoff weight figures, and applying them to a 300kg craft, correcting for coaxial gives hover times of about 16 mins, which isn't too far off.
[20:22] <SpeedEvil> It - may - be able to cope with a failed rotor, but it doesn't like it.
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[20:31] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFPJ6DUAY10 - dynamic slope soaring - 505MPH.
[20:31] <SpeedEvil> ".althought we measured up to 91 g with onboard telemetry "
[20:39] <Laurenceb_> what the heck
[20:39] <Laurenceb_> surely the wings would rip off?
[20:39] <SpeedEvil> Carbon fibre.
[20:39] <SpeedEvil> Lots and lots of it.
[20:42] <fsphil> you're up BARC
[20:43] <chris_99> watching it too :)
[20:43] <fsphil> two SPACE's already
[20:43] <BARC> here we go.. brace yourselves
[20:43] <eroomde> what ch?
[20:43] <fsphil> bbc 2
[20:44] <eroomde> found it
[20:44] <eroomde> i thought that was victoria coren when i heard the voice
[20:44] <eroomde> but no
[20:44] <fsphil> heh, it's the most gentle landing they've done in the tests so far
[20:45] <Lunar_Lander> so this was about "crash testing" mobiles?
[20:45] <fsphil> yeah
[20:45] <eroomde> when people say i'm being snobby when i'm rude about tv
[20:45] <fsphil> well, case protectors
[20:45] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:45] <eroomde> i should just show them this
[20:45] <BARC> the "science" is a bit crap its true
[20:45] <fsphil> you where right about the weather BARC
[20:46] <BARC> I think they were mostly after some pretty pictures
[20:46] <fsphil> got the ft817 in there
[20:46] <BARC> it was miserable yes
[20:46] <BARC> quite like our yaesu
[20:48] <eroomde> your yaesu was miserable?
[20:48] <eroomde> right i have to change this program
[20:48] <eroomde> sorry
[20:48] <BARC> no the weather!
[20:48] <eroomde> it's like it's match fixing, trying to get the license fee reduced
[20:48] <BARC> the yaesu is great
[20:49] <gonzo_nb> bbc2 now?
[20:49] <eroomde> finished now
[20:49] <eroomde> food blenders on a basketball court
[20:49] <eroomde> as abysmal as it sounds
[20:49] <BARC> a classic combo
[20:50] <eroomde> i didn't know robert carlisle did a stargate
[20:50] <fsphil> universe
[20:50] <fsphil> cancelled as soon as it got good
[20:51] <gonzo_nb> what was it called, will have to look on iplayer
[20:51] <eroomde> is that a good one?
[20:51] <fsphil> it started of grim, but ended great
[20:51] <eroomde> how not to spend your friday
[20:51] <eroomde> oh no sorry, freudian slip
[20:51] <eroomde> what to buy and why
[20:53] <BARC> but I still looked pretty though right eroomde?
[20:53] <fsphil> universe certainly looked good. great effects
[20:53] <eroomde> i missed you
[20:53] <eroomde> just saw landing
[20:53] <eroomde> see a blue jacket sleeve
[20:53] <eroomde> if that is you, nice jacket
[20:53] <BARC> thank you
[20:53] <BARC> :)
[20:54] <eroomde> did they spend a while organising and then turn up in a panic on the day expecting you to rush madly?
[20:54] <eroomde> because they had shcheduled more filming that afternoon in somewhere 200 miles away?
[20:55] <BARC> exactly this
[20:55] <BARC> its like you were there
[20:55] <eroomde> i have been there
[20:55] <eroomde> many times
[20:55] <eroomde> now don't do tv stuff as a rule
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[20:56] <BARC> too many bad experiences?
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[20:56] <eroomde> just trying
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[20:57] <eroomde> they sort of expect you to be delighted that you'll be on tv and therefore willing to forgive a lot
[20:57] <eroomde> well, i basically think tv is silly, and they're a bit silly
[20:57] <eroomde> however, my field is one in which the tv interest is more documentary than special effects
[20:58] <eroomde> so you can say 'i'm not going to rush this, it would be too dangerous' and they can't really complain
[20:58] <BARC> what's your field? if you don't mind me asking
[20:59] <eroomde> rocket propulsion r&d
[20:59] <eroomde> so they'll want to come and see some experimental engine fire or something
[21:00] <eroomde> and that basically has to be on our terms as every test has an element of risk. a 'production' rocket engine has enough tendancy to detonate, so experimental ones have to be treated carefully
[21:00] <BARC> makes sense
[21:01] <eroomde> but of course they'll be paying richard hammond or dick strawbridge or whoever £10000/minute and so try and do absolutely everything in one 'talent-day'
[21:01] <BARC> our worst bit is standing out on a windy day telling them.. yes we really DO have to let go now
[21:01] <eroomde> so in the past we've suggested they come and fake the presenter bit then come back the next day to actually film the firing
[21:01] <BARC> magic of TV
[21:02] <eroomde> yeah well they have to be careful about that now
[21:02] <eroomde> with all the fake documentary who-hah with the queen and so on a few years ago
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> so what was this program called?
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> that just aired
[21:03] <eroomde> discovery ch have been the best to work with. they just come and film and ask interested questions without much of an agenda. they basically just want to see what's going on. rather than having some sort of strange show-theme they're trying to show-horn your bit into
[21:03] <BARC> what to buy and why
[21:03] <eroomde> like 'churchill's secret weapons!!'
[21:03] <BARC> we did a couple of disco channel shows
[21:04] <eroomde> 'so, could this rocket technology have been integrated into anti-hitler rocket pidgeons?'
[21:04] <BARC> one team was very good and efficient
[21:04] <eroomde> 'er.....'
[21:04] <BARC> one not so much
[21:04] <BARC> ah well.. keeps life interesting
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[21:09] <Babs> evening - gore design - has anyone done any before?
[21:09] <eroomde> for balloons?
[21:09] <eroomde> yes
[21:09] <Babs> evening eroomde - yes
[21:09] <Babs> I can do the 360/number of gores bit at the top
[21:10] <Lunar_Lander> like the big plastic balloons?
[21:10] <Babs> desired circumference/number of gores bit in the middle etc.
[21:10] <Babs> and probably work out an equation that describes the line etc.
[21:10] <eroomde> is this for sp?
[21:11] <Babs> but i didn't know whether there was any more readily available science than that?
[21:11] <eroomde> i think most of the pico SPs just weld two sheets together
[21:11] <eroomde> with rounded corners
[21:11] <eroomde> there is a really good paper on gore design for big ones
[21:11] <Babs> its no fun to go that way
[21:11] <eroomde> but at our scale it concluded just make it spherical
[21:12] <eroomde> and it goes more pumpkin-ey for bigger envelopes
[21:12] <eroomde> let me see if i can find it
[21:12] <Babs> I have some 15 micron biaxial polypropylene with a self adhesive layer and access to a laser cutter
[21:12] <eroomde> was by sergio pelegrino who was at cambridge then went to caltech i think
[21:12] <Babs> GAME ON
[21:13] <Babs> i think spherical
[21:13] <Babs> the material i have and the laser bed can do me a 1.6m diameter one
[21:14] <eroomde> Shape Optimization of "Pumpkin" Balloons, pagitz and pellegrino
[21:14] <eroomde> trying to find a working link
[21:15] <eroomde> but i remember the conclusion - pure sphere of about 8 gores was right for stuff in the <5m dia range
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[21:16] <Babs> cool. thanks mate.
[21:17] <Babs> i might struggle to get some wide enough material to do it in 8 gores
[21:17] <Babs> going to be 14 minimum i think on the basis of the width of the material i have
[21:17] <Babs> at least it will be pretty
[21:17] <Babs> more seals, more risk though i guess
[21:19] <eroomde> can anyone iside CUDN (or some other uni) grab this? http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2007-2606
[21:20] <eroomde> 20 gores iirc
[21:20] <eroomde> https://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/3740196809/in/album-72157621628336895/
[21:20] <eroomde> not much fun to weld
[21:20] <eroomde> shape optimised for zp balloons
[21:21] <SpeedEvil> Babs: awesome
[21:21] <Babs> zp?
[21:21] <SpeedEvil> zero pressure
[21:22] <SpeedEvil> Make it a football-shape, appropriately coloured for sponsorship
[21:22] <Babs> this will be my weapon of choice
[21:22] <Babs> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/9-mm-Constant-Heat-Roller-Sealer-for-Heat-Seal-Plastic-Hand-Hold-Long-Sealing-/370368369849?hash=item563bacd4b9:g:31kAAOSwAYtWFvOH
[21:22] <Babs> once i have found a cheap Chinese knock off
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> I think like Leos one, a key may be to pressurising it greatly at room temperature so it swells a bit and relieves the strain
[21:23] <Babs> the strongest weld joint presumably being a overlap rather than a pinch one?
[21:24] <SpeedEvil> Likely, yes.
[21:24] <Babs> SpeedEvil - I don't get the pressurising bit?
[21:24] <SpeedEvil> Look athe above ed image.
[21:24] <SpeedEvil> it's got wrinkles.
[21:24] <Babs> i know people have used it to the qualltex one higher
[21:24] <SpeedEvil> Because it's very hard to exactly match all the edges nicely.
[21:25] <SpeedEvil> If you stretch the film slightly at room temp, it can yield a little,so all those stresses equalise.
[21:25] <SpeedEvil> It doesn't do this at -40C and risks popping
[21:25] <eroomde> you inflate it on the ground at fairly high pressure, so it relaxes/draws/creeps into its new shape
[21:25] <Babs> ahhh ok
[21:25] <Babs> better get a bigger house
[21:26] <eroomde> yup
[21:26] <eroomde> what diameter are you shooting for?
[21:26] <Babs> and declaw the cats
[21:27] <Babs> it will either be 4.8m circumference or 9.6m circumference
[21:28] <Babs> 9.6 is totally ambitious
[21:28] <Babs> but 1.5 ish diameter would make the welding easier and still pretty large
[21:29] <SpeedEvil> Probably best to start small
[21:29] <Babs> and then I don't know whether to take the easy way out and just inflate a latex inside it
[21:29] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[21:29] <Babs> it will be way strong enough to enclose it, but I don't need to worry substantially about leaks
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[21:43] <Laurenceb_> I think the hardest thing is avoiding leaks with something >2 gores
[21:43] <Laurenceb_> even the tinyiest hole will kill the flight time
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> with two sheets its easy to avoid complex joints
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[21:44] <Laurenceb_> I'm honestly not sure how to solve the problem without somewhere for the gas to leak out, or at least a weak point
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[21:51] <SpeedEvil> There are fairly cheap refrigerant leak detectors,and refrigerant is cheap
[21:53] <Babs> in terms of getting much higher superpressure altitude, I think the polyester outer and the latex inner should still get a good result
[21:55] <Laurenceb_> ooh thats a good idea
[21:56] <Laurenceb_> aiui the large stuff tends to use polythene "tapes" for forming joints
[21:56] <Laurenceb_> hmm latex inner might just work
[21:57] <SpeedEvil> It's crappy - from the perspective of massive balloons and budgets
[21:57] <Laurenceb_> latex leaks like a sieve, but if its only doing the job of sealing at the points where there are leaks in the outer cover then maybe
[21:57] <SpeedEvil> but from the perspective of where you can't invest hours and hours making seams and testing them with ...
[21:58] <SpeedEvil> the outer may help with UV too
[21:58] <Babs> So 1.5m diameter balloon is 150g of polyester max
[21:58] <SpeedEvil> Also 'balloon fluid' I've heard of
[21:59] <Babs> the latex is leaky, but if it is largely tight to the polyester that should help
[21:59] <Laurenceb_> I'm not sure how easy it is to form seams with polyester
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> Leo used polythene/EVOH/Nylon 6
[22:00] <Babs> this is where my food stuff comes in handy
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> with the polythene sides facing together
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> yeah Leo had some food film
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> this stuff is being made for steel can replacement
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[22:01] <Babs> you can find a heat sealable material that seals to itself that is also UV resistant
[22:01] <Babs> and is really strong
[22:02] <SpeedEvil> The key is multi-layer foils
[22:03] <SpeedEvil> they have easy-sealing layers on the inside and outside, and then multiple - oxygen/water/mechanical layers inside
[22:03] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[22:05] <SpeedEvil> That gets to just stupid layers ofleakage.
[22:05] <SpeedEvil> And in some cases it actually gets better at altitude
[22:05] <Babs> i have some of this http://www.packagingfilm.co.uk/pdf/PF_PP24I.pdf
[22:05] <Babs> to test
[22:06] <Laurenceb_> looks okayish
[22:07] <Laurenceb_> but it'll leak gas more than Leos stuff
[22:07] <Laurenceb_> I'd try a simple two sheet balloon to start off with
[22:07] <Laurenceb_> multiple gores is very much harder
[22:07] <Babs> the best would be the stuff they use for long life sandwiches
[22:08] <Laurenceb_> I'm not sure where to start with multiple gores
[22:08] <Laurenceb_> you'd need to search the literature, hopefully there is some clever technique to make it more doable
[22:08] <Laurenceb_> sewing/fabric assembly techniques are not my strong point :P
[22:09] <Babs> the easiest way to seal is to do a pinch seal
[22:09] <Babs> you just lay one gore over the other and seal that way
[22:10] <Laurenceb_> I'm not sure that would work with your film
[22:10] <Laurenceb_> as only one side is coated aiui
[22:10] <Babs> you can do it, you just get left with a series of small fins on either the inside or outside of the balloon
[22:11] <Babs> as in you do adhesive to adhesive side and pinch it
[22:11] <Laurenceb_> oh got you
[22:11] <Babs> only issue is that seam is not as good
[22:11] <Laurenceb_> yeah thats how Leo did it
[22:11] <Laurenceb_> was very strong
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[22:11] <Laurenceb_> remember that its a lot stronger at -40C
[22:11] <Babs> so especially if the gores are laser cut and very regular
[22:12] <Babs> they can just be laid on top of each other
[22:12] <Babs> need to think through the circle bit on the top
[22:12] <Laurenceb_> have you managed to laser cut gores?
[22:12] <Babs> good point about temp
[22:12] <Babs> i have some guys who can laser cut from mylar
[22:12] <Babs> of a type much thicker than this one, so he reckons it should be fine
[22:13] <Babs> i just need to send him a sample
[22:13] <Laurenceb_> yeah mylar laser cuts ok
[22:13] <Babs> it would cut out a massive part of the faff just to send it to him in a roll and get the gores back
[22:15] <Laurenceb_> I think the hardest bit is the top and bottom caps
[22:15] <Babs> agreed, but less of a problem with the latex inner
[22:15] <Laurenceb_> thats where its going to leak unless you manage something clever
[22:15] <Laurenceb_> ah ok yeah if you combine it with that it might work
[22:15] <Babs> just use it primarily as a shell
[22:16] <Babs> right off to bed, cheers Laurenceb_ some great thoughts
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> cya
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[23:07] <Laurenceb_> wow reception in US
[23:08] <Laurenceb_> 17000km, cant get much better than that
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[23:08] <russss> oh yeah
[23:09] <russss> that may be greyline propagation
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[23:31] <jarod> https://www.agentschaptelecom.nl/sites/default/files/frequentieposter.pdf cool (for .nl)
[23:31] <russss> this one is quite nice, but a bit old http://www.roke.co.uk/resources/datasheets/UK-Frequency-Allocations.pdf
[00:00] --- Sat Jan 9 2016