highaltitude.log.20160106

[00:01] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[00:39] <Laurenceb_> AndyEsser: you could write some CFD from first principles in matlab
[00:39] <Laurenceb_> not actually that hard
[00:49] <Laurenceb_> https://i.imgur.com/7DtViEP.jpg
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[01:03] <SpeedEvil> http://thenewsprint.co/2014/05/05/fisher-bullet-space-pen/ - also - says 1948
[01:04] <Jartza>
[01:04] <Jartza> oopsie
[01:06] Action: Laurenceb_ has been wondering about how to detect condensation on superpressure envelopes
[01:06] <Laurenceb_> https://x-f.lv/dev/habitat-graphs/payload/PS-57#g/altitude,battery
[01:06] <Laurenceb_> so how to distinguish that from a gas leak
[01:08] <SpeedEvil> for clear envelopes - reflectometer?
[01:10] <Laurenceb_> maybe...
[01:10] <Laurenceb_> with a HF antenna the payload is a long way from the envelope
[01:10] <SpeedEvil> ah
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[01:11] <Laurenceb_> I was wondering if the HF antenna could be used together with a DC shunt and very low bias current amp
[01:11] <SpeedEvil> you mean to measure the atmospheric voltage gradient driven current?
[01:11] <SpeedEvil> and assume that a unconducting balloon won't be an efficient 'ground'
[01:13] <Laurenceb_> use the atmospheric voltage gradient and the fact that stuff it picks up is going to be charged
[01:15] <SpeedEvil> oh - I was assuming it'd be condensing from vapour
[01:15] <SpeedEvil> ...
[01:15] <SpeedEvil> I guess vapour has the voltage of the gas
[01:15] <Laurenceb_> yes that too
[01:15] <Laurenceb_> aiui that will carry charge with it too
[01:15] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[01:16] <Laurenceb_> there are some crazy low bias current opamps made for drift chambers
[01:16] <Laurenceb_> so it might just work
[01:16] <SpeedEvil> especially maybe if you field mill it
[01:17] <SpeedEvil> oh - not so easy on a pico
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[01:22] <SpeedEvil> I suppose plasma contactors are out alas. :)
[01:23] <Laurenceb_> I'm not sure "AC" coupled is an issue
[01:23] <Laurenceb_> when opamps are so good
[01:23] <SpeedEvil> i guess the voltage is 'huge'
[01:25] <Oddstr13> what was the name of that offline signal analyzer waterfall again?
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[01:32] <Laurenceb_> http://www.linear.com/product/LTC6268-10
[01:32] <Laurenceb_> more than a little bonkers
[01:35] <Oddstr13> inspectrum!
[01:35] <Miek> !
[01:37] <Oddstr13> Miek: it was featured on Hak5 not that long ago actually
[01:37] <Oddstr13> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVqIe3na_Zk
[01:38] <SpeedEvil> 3fA@room temp - a bit colder, and it'll be even better
[01:38] <SpeedEvil> silly
[01:40] <Laurenceb_> unfortunatly that will probably be exceeded by HF pickup on the antenna
[01:41] <Laurenceb_> I wish I understood this more, but charge tends to cling to dust particles
[01:41] <Laurenceb_> as does condensate
[01:41] <Laurenceb_> also radiation causes trails that cause the same phenomenon
[01:41] <Oddstr13> throw around enough dust particles, and you have a thunderstorm.
[01:41] <Oddstr13> have fun!
[01:41] <Laurenceb_> so the charge pickup would actually be in bursts of hundreds of e-
[01:42] <Laurenceb_> quest is, could an opamp circuit connected to the HF antenna detect those current spikes and run a little counter
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[01:44] <Laurenceb_> question
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[02:26] <SpeedEvil> And not die due to ...
[02:38] <SpeedEvil> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-35240012?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central
[02:38] <SpeedEvil> 'small earthquake' in north korea
[02:41] <Laurenceb_> uh oh
[02:45] <SpeedEvil> This is exactly the same magnitude as the 2013 test
[02:49] <Laurenceb_> a little over 1kT
[02:53] <SpeedEvil> 9+
[02:58] <SpeedEvil> hah.
[02:58] <SpeedEvil> Not very subtle.
[02:58] <SpeedEvil> Earthquakes don't tend to go of at 10:00:02AM
[03:00] <Laurenceb_> lol
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[03:01] <alpha0> generally they need a slip in a continental shelf as well I would think?
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[04:02] <Oddstr13> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-35240012
[04:10] <SpeedEvil> Mr Fusion.
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[05:41] <realborg> i miss "finger quake@geophys.washington.edu"
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[09:19] <astrobiologist> morning all
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[09:32] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VK5ARG-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VK5ARG-1
[09:36] <AndyEsser> since AirSpy seems to be out of stock, have ordered a cheapo RTL-SDR dongle just to get me up and running :)
[09:37] <fsphil> delivery from itead to uk isn't too bad
[09:38] <fsphil> but worth having the rtlsdr anyway
[09:38] <AndyEsser> Yea - should be good enough for me to get my RF stuff up and running surely?
[09:39] <fsphil> definitly
[09:39] <AndyEsser> \o/
[09:39] <fsphil> probably as good as the airspy when coupled with the habamp
[09:40] <AndyEsser> then I just need to get the GPS stuff soldered and prototyped and voila
[09:40] <AndyEsser> should be good to move to PCB design :)
[09:41] <AndyEsser> hoping I can fit everything on a 50x50 PCB :)
[09:41] <fsphil> smd?
[09:42] <AndyEsser> yea
[09:42] <fsphil> no problem :)
[09:42] <AndyEsser> I'd prefer to make it even smaller
[09:42] <AndyEsser> but dirty pcb seems to be restrained to 50x50 or 100x100
[09:43] <zyp> isn't those just pricing classes?
[09:43] <zyp> I would assume you could make any size, and as long as it's smaller than 50x50, that's the price you get
[09:43] <AndyEsser> ah that's a point actually
[09:44] <AndyEsser> and even if they send them at 50x50 I can just cut them down
[09:44] <zyp> that's how seeed works, at least
[09:44] <fsphil> could also put two 50x25 boards in the 50x50 area
[09:44] <AndyEsser> fsphil: I might do that
[09:44] <zyp> I've done 32x50 at seed, at their 50x50 pricing
[09:44] <AndyEsser> ah cool
[09:44] <AndyEsser> zyp: did they cut the board down?
[09:44] <zyp> and some weird shaped boards, they don't have to be rectangular
[09:44] <AndyEsser> sweet
[09:44] <zyp> of course
[09:44] <AndyEsser> I might investigate then
[09:45] <AndyEsser> however 50x50 is looking pretty good atm for to make a fairly generic board for use with the 328p and expose all the connections etc
[09:45] <zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/f/ts9IZ.JPG <- here's some stuff I did once
[09:45] <AndyEsser> if I made a highly specialised board for tracking then I could probably reduce it even smaller
[09:45] <fsphil> yeah don't go so small that you can't easily add a bodge wire
[09:45] <AndyEsser> I'm trying to convince work we need a 3d Printer
[09:46] <AndyEsser> at which point I'll then also be able to make a funky payload container :)
[09:46] <AndyEsser> zyp: ultrasound range detectors?
[09:46] <AndyEsser> o no - those are holes...
[09:46] <AndyEsser> just buttons?
[09:46] <zyp> yeah, just a grid of buttons
[09:46] <AndyEsser> sorry - I'm being blind :P
[09:46] <AndyEsser> hehe
[09:47] <mfa298> 3d printers are old now, laser cutting - much more fun.
[09:47] <AndyEsser> mfa298: maybe - but I can't get the MD excited about laser cutting :P
[09:47] <mfa298> although 3d printers are pretty cheap these days so it should be hard to argue about them
[09:47] <AndyEsser> 3d printers would allow us to prototype out all our products
[09:47] <AndyEsser> laser cutting would be more difficult to do that
[09:48] <mfa298> s/should/shouldn't/
[09:48] <AndyEsser> sadly our CNC routers aren't good for metal otherwise I'd come in on the weekends and use that to make containers/chassis
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[09:49] <mfa298> we've done a fair bit of prototyping with 3d printers at work they're not bad for that if you can cope with waiting and having to spend time calibrating / fixing them
[09:54] <cm13g09> mfa298: 3d printers
[09:54] <cm13g09> love hate relationship, right?
[09:55] <eroomde> just hate
[09:56] <mfa298> made it somebody elses problem :p
[09:56] <AndyEsser> heh
[09:56] <eroomde> still hate
[09:56] <AndyEsser> I hate thought about just outsourcing the builds of that stuff - but I'd rather prototype 'quickly' in-house first before I do that
[09:57] <AndyEsser> s/ate/had
[09:57] <eroomde> some of our stuff with 3d printing experts was still huge trouble
[09:57] <eroomde> all sorts of internal stresses and closed/obscured internal passageways
[09:57] <eroomde> it will be a thing, but it isn't yet
[09:58] <eroomde> unless you redesign everything to be much more tolerant of low tolerances
[09:59] <mfa298> its not bad for some prototying, but it's potentially not as strong (usually lots of air inside solid objects) and as Ed said not that good for tolerances.
[10:00] <eroomde> i'd still definitely get a cnc mill over an sls machine
[10:00] <eroomde> if i had sort of £30k to play with
[10:00] <mfa298> I think on one thing I tried I had to make some mounting pins ~1mm smaller than the hole, as the printing process added that much onto the sides
[10:01] <AndyEsser> Did I read something here once that anything that is sent over the RF frequencies we use (434MHz) it has to be decodable by anyone (ie the protocol has to be publically available)?
[10:02] <craag> AndyEsser: No, it's ISM, you can do whatever you want.
[10:02] <craag> The restriction that you mention applies to Ham Radio
[10:02] <AndyEsser> ah
[10:02] <AndyEsser> thank you kindly :)
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[10:44] <AndyEsser> https://t.co/tTjPxsF3YU
[10:44] <AndyEsser> :)
[10:51] <R6mco> ok...
[10:51] <R6mco> yesterday I received PS-57 three times here in Europe
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[11:01] <eroomde> AndyEsser: Anderson is a v good book
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[11:16] <UpuWork> Sled Driver is worth a read
[11:16] <eroomde> random?
[11:16] <eroomde> but yes
[11:16] <UpuWork> I just saw the jet on there
[11:17] <eroomde> right
[11:17] <eroomde> sled driver is alright
[11:17] <eroomde> but quite a lot of it is confused pilot hubris
[11:17] <eroomde> they're spam-in-can relatative to the engineering acheivement, but you'd think the pilots built it from reading that
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[11:27] <eroomde> from a random paper about something else at nasa, the author laments:
[11:27] <eroomde> "Many of
[11:27] <eroomde> the best talent in the Agency have spent their entire careers in the sustaining or operational phase of the Shuttle and
[11:27] <eroomde> ISS Programs. "
[11:27] <eroomde> and thus no one knows how to build anything new or quickly experiment
[11:27] <eroomde> because of these stupid white elephants
[11:28] <eroomde> but hey, you get to sell a few more raspberry Pi's so it's not a total loss
[11:28] <craag> hah
[11:31] <realborg> damn nixon
[11:32] <eroomde> presidents just do what they're advised. discussing people is boring realborg
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[11:33] <realborg> sorry, but the space program achieved great things until nixon
[11:33] <realborg> and had even greater plans / dreams
[11:33] <craag> what kind of 'new things' would you like to see instead eroomde ?
[11:34] <eroomde> it landed on the moon when nixon was in office realborg
[11:34] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-11 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-11
[11:34] <eroomde> and it slowed right down once it had done it before the russians
[11:35] <eroomde> craag: a willingness to accept more risk and speed
[11:35] <eroomde> and not run every project like it's ISS maintenance
[11:35] <craag> heh yeah
[11:35] <eroomde> more beagle2 class things, but with the budget agreed up-front so people can get on. that cost peanuts, relatively
[11:36] <eroomde> and so nearly worked they should really just build another one and put it on the next orbiter
[11:37] <realborg> another thing: we had nuclear detonation detection from orbit since the velo satellites - where is that data now?
[11:37] <nick_> How does one detect a nuclear detonation from orbit?
[11:38] <eroomde> up your bum probably
[11:38] <craag> also there's so much politics in iss task scheduling
[11:39] <realborg> nick_, i think the first generation velo satellites only by detecting gamma rays (that's how cosmic gamma ray bursts were discovered)
[11:39] <eroomde> everything to do with the ISS is like that I'm sure. The whole thing is batty and so you can fractally zoom in on any aspect of it and find similar battiness
[11:39] <AndyEsser> eroomde: good - bought a decent book then :)
[11:39] <craag> it seems to be all about who-you-know in management as to whether you can get an extra 5 minutes here or there
[11:40] <realborg> today we have more advanced instruments http://www.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y2013/AirForce/stamped/0305913F_7_PB_2013.pdf
[11:40] <craag> urggh anyway, joining the iss fanclub for 24h tomorrow, then can go back to moaning about it for a while
[11:41] <craag> your opinion ed, of which I am completely persuaded, was not popular in the ARISS group :P
[11:41] <eroomde> it's because it doesn't really need to be there - there's no pressing urge or imperative to explore anything - that it can fall to politics to fill all the time with various interests
[11:41] <craag> mm
[11:41] <craag> yeha
[11:41] <realborg> wernher von braun had plans for a big rotating space station in 1955 - wonder what happened to them
[11:41] <eroomde> they didn't have much time for amateur radio when going to the moon
[11:42] <eroomde> realborg: if you really wonder, why not go and researcvh what happened to them?
[11:42] <eroomde> ntrs is your friend
[11:42] <realborg> but if i remeber radio amateurs did catch the signals from the lunar surface
[11:44] <craag> realborg: sure - but they didn't schedule 20 minutes to talk to take questions from 50 schoolkids from Minnesota..
[11:44] <AndyEsser> craag: that could be answered by Google
[11:45] <craag> They didn't have google AndyEsser ;)
[11:45] <realborg> craag, I wonder when that got into the job description for astronauts
[11:45] <AndyEsser> craag: I meant modern ISS educational slots
[11:46] <craag> when ISS became the international outreach & PR station (IOPRS) realborg :P
[11:47] <realborg> well said, ISS shall henceforth be called IOPRS
[11:47] <craag> AndyEsser: Yeah, but that does miss the point of them. They get to talk to a real astronaut (by dictionary definition), in space! The content of the questions isn't that relevant at that point.
[11:47] <eroomde> it's plenty exciting enough for the kids
[11:47] <eroomde> i remember the school we did the teds with got an ISS contact off the back of that
[11:48] <craag> :)
[11:48] <realborg> what's the worth of a minute of an astronauts time? including all the training and cost to get them up there?
[11:48] <AndyEsser> eroomde: a school got an ISS contract from sending some Teddies up?
[11:48] <eroomde> and they had the entire assembly room packed with kids and parents and the ARISS guys gave a good intro talk about everything and then tried to make contact and when a reply finally crackled through there were gasps from adults and kids alike
[11:49] <eroomde> AndyEsser: i said contact not contract
[11:49] <AndyEsser> oops -
[11:49] <AndyEsser> herp derp
[11:49] <AndyEsser> my bad
[11:49] <AndyEsser> sorry
[11:50] <craag> The schools set the bar *very* high for getting on the shortlist for a contact this year
[11:51] <craag> Tons of enthusiasm from the kids and teachers alike
[11:51] <nick_> In the rich schools?
[11:51] <realborg> iss contracts may become a unique selling point for schools that pay for regular iss contact
[11:51] <craag> nick_: A good spread actually
[11:51] <eroomde> i don't think anyone can pay for iss contact
[11:52] <craag> hehe I know you're wrong on that eroomde ;)
[11:52] <eroomde> oh, that's bad
[11:52] <realborg> eroomde, didn't stop people from trying to commercialize things in the past
[11:52] <craag> but can't say more (it's nothing to do with ARISS)
[11:52] <eroomde> oh right
[11:52] <eroomde> so schools can't pay, at least
[11:52] <craag> no
[11:52] <eroomde> for preferential treatment
[11:52] <craag> no
[11:52] <eroomde> that's what i meant
[11:53] <eroomde> good
[11:53] <realborg> some rich people even managed to fly to the iss
[11:53] <eroomde> yes - they're the ones that used to do the contacts
[11:53] <craag> there's something separate in the works, being done by a large organisation, that is being paid for.
[11:53] <eroomde> more time
[11:55] <eroomde> the one i did was charles simonyi
[11:57] <realborg> start a kickstarter for Apollo 18 selling genuine moon rock to be brought back
[11:59] <eroomde> after you
[12:07] <realborg> i'd want the next moon landing to be a science mission - leave commerce behind on this planet
[12:07] <eroomde> why did you suggest it then?
[12:09] <realborg> making fun of the politicians who want to commercialize spaceflight
[12:24] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-57 after 039 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-57
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[12:45] BARC (5773f9aa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.115.249.170) joined #highaltitude.
[12:49] <BARC> Hi All, after much time and poking (sorry daveake and Anthony) I'm finally here! Good to (virtually) meet you all. Alex
[12:50] <BARC> I do hope I can be as helpful to any of you as many of you have been to us!
[12:50] <eroomde> b = bristol?
[12:51] <BARC> I'm in Sheffield
[12:51] <eroomde> b = ?
[12:51] <SM0ULC-Reb> hello all
[12:51] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03hkLo1 after 0317 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=hkLo1
[12:56] <eroomde> it shall remain a mystery
[12:56] <eroomde> oh well, welcome
[13:01] <UpuWork> Hey there BARC
[13:01] <UpuWork> welcome aboard (Anthony)
[13:01] <UpuWork> initials I suspect eroomde
[13:01] <UpuWork> backwards
[13:01] <eroomde> i wouldn't want to be aboard anthony
[13:02] <UpuWork> no :)
[13:06] <BARC> Yes, sorry is correct. Myself and partner in crime (Chris)
[13:07] <eroomde> gotcha
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[13:17] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CHANGEME - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CHANGEME
[13:56] <Vaizki> Good ole changeme rides again
[13:57] <AndyEsser> heh
[13:58] <eroomde> rishworth school
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[14:49] <habby> Afternoon! Is there anyone from Churchill around?
[14:49] <eroomde> mclane_: might be ewasier to just have this chat on irc
[14:50] <eroomde> adamgreig ^
[14:51] <habby> Thanks, Ed :)
[14:52] <fsphil> it is *just* possible to do ssdv on the atmega328 mclane_, but yeah stm32 is a better way to go
[14:52] <adamgreig> Hi Habby
[14:54] <habby> Hi, Adam! One of my students has emailed you to ask about using Churchill, if possible. I just thought I'd touch base, too. Are you available to have a chat? Thanks :)
[14:55] <adamgreig> Jack?
[14:56] <adamgreig> And, hi :) sure
[14:57] <habby> OK, just trying to work out how to PM.... (!)
[14:59] <Laurenceb_> wow full house on PS-57
[15:00] <Laurenceb_> should manage a circumnavigation soon, wonder if its a PS flight time record?
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[15:08] <mike_> Anybody home?
[15:08] Nick change: mike_ -> Guest60310
[15:09] <eroomde> y
[15:17] <Guest60310> I'd like to get some feedback on a patch to WSJT-X for SNUS reporting
[15:17] <Guest60310> The concern on the WSJT-X list is that too much reporting could occur
[15:18] <Guest60310> Swamping the servers
[15:18] <Guest60310> I've made a patch that reports when any grid changes for a call sign...which should only be for "mobile" systems like balloons
[15:19] <Guest60310> So first report would be ignored. All subsequent reports would go to SNUS
[15:19] <Guest60310> Is that reasonable?
[15:19] <SM0ULC-Reb> sort of
[15:20] <adamgreig> you're unlikely to swamp snus
[15:20] <adamgreig> oh well
[15:20] <adamgreig> i guess we do only want balloons though
[15:20] <Guest60310> Well there are 4000+ WSJT-X users at any time but grid changes NEVER occur
[15:21] <Guest60310> Who can I email to get some "blessing" that this logic would work for SNUS?
[15:22] <SM0ULC-Reb> Guest60310: the reporting would be optional right?
[15:22] <Guest60310> Yes
[15:22] <Laurenceb_> seems sane
[15:22] <Laurenceb_> so it could track callsigns that are mobile?
[15:22] <Guest60310> Yes...but I've never seen any...nobody doing mobile JT modes...yet...
[15:23] <SM0ULC-Reb> Guest60310: make a small checkbox, "report only mobile" :)
[15:23] <adamgreig> well report only mobile ever i would think
[15:24] <adamgreig> i wonder if you could make it so you select which stations to report
[15:24] <adamgreig> would that make sense? if there are very few stations mobile, presumably interested parties can select just those
[15:24] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[15:24] <Guest60310> Filtering is possible...but wouldn't you rather have thousands of potential reports?
[15:24] <adamgreig> depends if you want anyone using wsjt-x to automatically report though
[15:24] <adamgreig> yea
[15:25] <Guest60310> We put a ballon info on the checkbox to "encourage" people to report alongside the PSKReporter box.
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[15:25] <Guest60310> Question is...what does SNUS do with a JT9 string that isn't balloon data? Ignore it I assume?
[15:26] <Guest60310> What does a balloon JT payload look like?
[15:26] <Guest60310> As it is now I guess SNUS gets all WSPR reports
[15:26] <Guest60310> Not just balloon
[15:27] <Guest60310> So who is the SNUS god?
[15:28] <adamgreig> best ask in #habhub, there are a few of us
[15:28] <adamgreig> i'm not sure what a balloon jt payload looks like, have there been many? just the PS ones?
[15:29] <adamgreig> not sure how they forward into snus either. lz1dev might know :P
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[15:36] <Guest60310> Is anbody else using a patched WSJT-X for balloon payloads besides PS?
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[15:37] <adamgreig> not that I know of
[15:38] <KB2NCY> Anyone here that can guide me to the PS JT9 balloon tracking.Using WSJT-X here with pskreporting but dod not see the balloons aas heard here.
[15:38] <KB2NCY> https://pskreporter.info/pskmap.html
[15:39] <KB2NCY> Neither balloons are seen on the map for 24 hours
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[15:44] <fab4space> ah j'ai un crash
[15:45] <fab4space> sorry wrong channel :p
[15:47] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03test-BK - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=test-BK
[15:51] <kokey> what's a cheap radio I could use for a pico?
[15:52] <mclane_> transmitting or receiving?
[15:52] <kokey> transmitting
[15:52] <mclane_> read the wiki: arduino + ntx2b or rfm98
[15:53] <kokey> ah, the radiometrics ones seem to be around 25 squids or more
[15:53] <mclane_> you probably need to design your own tracker
[15:54] <kokey> I used the rfm22b before, that's less than a tenner but I'll have to solder on an antenna nicely
[15:54] <AndyEsser> kokey: NTX2B is £18
[15:54] <kokey> I still have the code I wrote for an arduino pro mini using the rfm22b
[15:54] <kokey> and some ublox max-8 gps, I thinks
[15:54] <kokey> don't have the modules any more
[15:55] <AndyEsser> I got a Ublox Max 8 GPS module last week, didn't realise quite how small and fiddly it was to solder until it arrived :)
[15:56] <kokey> looks like the rfm98 comes with holes on the pcb... nice
[15:56] <kokey> AndyEsser: I got mine with a breakout from Upu a few years ago
[15:57] <mclane_> does someone have some experience with some more powerful micro then the ATmega 328?
[15:58] <AndyEsser> Yea, I think I forgot to select the breakout one :) just ended up with the chip basically :)
[15:58] <kokey> mclane_: like the raspberri pi? ;-)
[15:58] <mclane_> I am experimenting with an STM32F051, but this micro seems to disturb the ublox gps
[15:58] <mclane_> no raspi is too big /heavy
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[15:58] <kokey> the esp8266 is also much more powerful, but has wifi you won't need and eats electricity
[15:59] <kokey> but the esp8266 is _small_
[15:59] <mclane_> I am looking for a bare chip
[15:59] <mclane_> in a similar housing then the 328
[16:00] <AndyEsser> mclane_: I know some in here use the ATmega644 instead
[16:00] <mclane_> ((TQFP 32 or the like)
[16:00] <adamgreig> mclane_: I think the STM32 is probably not your problem
[16:00] <adamgreig> I've used a lot of STM32s with MAX-M8 GPS before
[16:00] <kokey> the esp8266 has a Cadence Tensilica LX106 microcontroller and there's good gcc support for it
[16:00] <adamgreig> (though not yours specifically)
[16:01] <adamgreig> i think the problem is quite likely accidental static discharge into the ublox
[16:01] <adamgreig> which often kills them
[16:01] <adamgreig> or possible insufficient decoupling capacitors on your stm32f0 causing supply line ripple
[16:01] <adamgreig> also a likely candidate
[16:01] <adamgreig> do you have a photo/schematic/pcb of the new board?
[16:02] <mclane_> yes, wait a minute
[16:02] <kokey> what's a good place to buy the rfm98 from in the UK?
[16:03] <fsphil> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=71_63&product_id=110
[16:04] <fsphil> lovely url
[16:04] <kokey> old faithful
[16:05] <kokey> yeah looks like this is still not a hobby for ordering from china and waiting 40 days for the free postage
[16:05] <mclane_> schematic is here: http://imgur.com/PakiuEa
[16:06] <kokey> is the u-blox gps hidden on upu's pages somewhere?
[16:06] <UpuWork> hey kokey
[16:06] <UpuWork> jsut the module on its own?
[16:06] <kokey> well since I solder like a drunk blind man, I probably need it with antenna socket too
[16:07] <UpuWork> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=59_60
[16:07] <UpuWork> breakout boards there
[16:07] <AndyEsser> UpuWork: I might have to put another order in to you ;)
[16:07] <kokey> oh brilliant, one for pico too
[16:07] <AndyEsser> The Ublox without breakout board is a bit too fiddly :P
[16:07] <AndyEsser> haha
[16:07] <UpuWork> if you want the modules just yell they are on there (clue : just seatch for M8Q M8C etc)
[16:07] <UpuWork> but Ublox asked me to stop advertising I was selling them
[16:08] <mclane_> gerber plots here: http://imgur.com/a/iEm5o
[16:08] <UpuWork> not locking mclane_ ?
[16:08] <kokey> how much is shipping to the wrong Ireland?
[16:09] <UpuWork> they are both wrong pls clarify
[16:09] <UpuWork> I jest
[16:09] <mclane_> no, it takes a very long time until it locks
[16:09] <kokey> Dublin
[16:09] <kokey> haha
[16:09] <UpuWork> you're international sorry so about 8.70
[16:09] <eroomde> mclane_: did you do the screen capture with a potato?
[16:09] <kokey> and how much is local to the UK?
[16:09] <eroomde> it's much tioo small to read
[16:09] <UpuWork> mclane_ not sure it makes a huge difference but you haven't followed the layout for the chip properly
[16:09] <UpuWork> 1 sec
[16:09] <UpuWork> 4.60 ?
[16:09] <UpuWork> recorded
[16:10] <kokey> ok goodie
[16:10] <AndyEsser> sent it by HAB
[16:10] <kokey> still is a good deal
[16:10] <AndyEsser> :)
[16:10] <adamgreig> is IC4 the STM32F0 there kokey?
[16:10] <UpuWork> whats IC1 ?
[16:10] <adamgreig> uh, mclane_ sorry
[16:10] <kokey> you're beating china still :)
[16:10] <fsphil> "they are both wrong".. :p
[16:10] Nick change: ggherdov`__ -> ggherdov`
[16:11] <mclane_> IC 4 is the STM32F051
[16:11] <UpuWork> http://imgur.com/lVQhcj9
[16:11] <mclane_> IC 1 is a serial flash memory
[16:11] <eroomde> it doesn't look very well decoupled at all
[16:11] <eroomde> ic1
[16:11] <eroomde> what frequency does it run at?
[16:11] <adamgreig> ic4 doesn't either
[16:12] <eroomde> sorry i meant ic4
[16:12] <eroomde> the stm
[16:12] <mclane_> 8 MHz external, 32 MHz internal (PLL)
[16:12] <eroomde> i think at 32mhz i'd want much better decoupling
[16:12] <mclane_> what is wrong?
[16:13] <adamgreig> the ublox might want more too, think you just have 100n there?
[16:13] <kokey> funny that the GPS is still the most expensive part
[16:13] <adamgreig> do you have an oscilloscope?
[16:13] <mclane_> the ublox has 100n, the STM has 2x 100 n
[16:13] <kokey> wonder if there's a way to track yourself just using mobile phone towers
[16:13] <eroomde> mclane_: but they're miles away
[16:13] <eroomde> look at c7
[16:13] <UpuWork> http://www.johansontechnology.com/datasheets/antennas/1575AT43A0040.pdf
[16:13] <adamgreig> mclane_: so the stm32 datasheet says it needs 100n on every VDD, plus a 4u7 one on VDD, plus 10n+1u on VDDA
[16:14] <eroomde> i preume that the pin to the left of the top corner is vcc
[16:14] <adamgreig> on one VDD*
[16:14] <eroomde> and the pin to the right is gnd
[16:14] <UpuWork> note lay out recommendations and the 1mm gap betwee ground and antenna
[16:14] <eroomde> follow the current loop created by c7
[16:14] <mclane_> ok, I have an osci
[16:14] <eroomde> it has to go on a very long journey to get from c7+ to c7-
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[16:15] <Encapsulation> very cool
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[16:16] <UpuWork> hello ?
[16:16] <eroomde> also mclane_ look at c12, which i presume is also meant to be a decoupler
[16:16] <eroomde> you have a completely crazy current return path there
[16:17] <eroomde> that loop from pin to capacitor terminal to the other pin needs to be as tiny as possible
[16:17] <eroomde> mclane_: this is an example from one of my designs
[16:17] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/qg38779xbue5dbt/Screenshot%202014-11-04%2011.39.49.png?dl=0
[16:17] <eroomde> look on the right
[16:18] <eroomde> you see the decoupling capacitor. power and gnd comes in from behind from the two vias
[16:18] <mclane_> ok understood
[16:18] <eroomde> then from the cap you have the shortest tracks possible directly to the pair of power pins
[16:18] <eroomde> so that loop is as small as possible, which results in the smallest amount of radiation from that loop
[16:21] <mclane_> so new pcb design needed ;-(
[16:21] <adamgreig> well
[16:22] <adamgreig> you could probably test something on the board you have
[16:22] <adamgreig> for one thing try clocking the stm32 way way down
[16:22] <adamgreig> it can run in the khz iirc
[16:22] <adamgreig> (probably can't talk to your ublox at that speed though!)
[16:22] <adamgreig> or just hold the stm32 in reset and see if the ublox gets a lock
[16:22] <adamgreig> (you'll need to watch its serial lines yourself in that case)
[16:23] <mclane_> that I have done already - at 8 MHz
[16:23] <mclane_> same result
[16:23] <adamgreig> ok
[16:23] <adamgreig> I still think it's possible you accidentally caused a static discharge into the ublox antenna input
[16:23] <eroomde> bodge a decoupling cap across the pins?
[16:23] <mclane_> I would rule that out since I have replaced the ublox already
[16:23] <adamgreig> ok
[16:23] <Laurenceb_> is there data coming out of the ublox?
[16:24] <mclane_> yes, and I gat a lock after a long time
[16:24] <mclane_> so it is basically working, but sensitivity is missing
[16:25] <Laurenceb_> what sort of antenna do you have and where is it placed?
[16:25] <adamgreig> do you have a scope?
[16:25] <adamgreig> ah you do
[16:25] <adamgreig> check the VDD line on it
[16:25] <adamgreig> especially where it goes into the ublox
[16:25] <adamgreig> see if it's noisy
[16:26] <eroomde> use the little ground probe that attaches to the scope tip if you have it
[16:26] <eroomde> else it might be hard to see a fast small ripple
[16:27] <Laurenceb_> I've fried LNAs before
[16:27] <Laurenceb_> you should never touch the top of a patch antenna
[16:28] <Laurenceb_> I always wrap my antenna in ESD foam or plastic
[16:28] <adamgreig> mm
[16:28] <Laurenceb_> unless its the foil coated stuff
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[16:28] <adamgreig> I like to spray them with apl
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[16:28] <Laurenceb_> that would block the signal
[16:28] <adamgreig> and then worry about detuning
[16:28] <Laurenceb_> heh
[16:28] <adamgreig> these days I put a fast esd diode on all my antenna inputs anyway
[16:29] <adamgreig> but you gotta get it soldered up before that's useful
[16:29] <Laurenceb_> proper ESD protection decreases LNA performance, so they tend not to have it
[16:29] <adamgreig> yea indeed
[16:29] <adamgreig> but ESD damage dramatically decreases LNA performance
[16:30] <Laurenceb_> one of the reasons this was stupid https://www.drone-zone.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Zano-Quad-in-Wei%C3%9F.png
[16:30] <Laurenceb_> it'd last exactly 5 seconds before getting fried
[16:31] <adamgreig> lol
[16:32] <mclane_> ok, the ublox Vdd is noisy, spikes with about 50 mV
[16:33] <adamgreig> that'l do it
[16:33] <adamgreig> can you hold the stm32 in reset?
[16:33] <mclane_> yes
[16:33] <adamgreig> what happens to vdd in that case?
[16:34] <Laurenceb_> eeek
[16:34] <Laurenceb_> yeah thats really going to mess it up
[16:35] <Laurenceb_> ublox is very nice, but the one thing it hates it power supply noise
[16:35] <Laurenceb_> *is
[16:37] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-59 after 038 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-59
[16:38] <mclane_> same - no difference
[16:38] <Laurenceb_> its probably coming from the ublox then
[16:38] <Laurenceb_> stm32 is quite quiet
[16:38] <adamgreig> do you have an LDO or SMPS?
[16:40] <mclane_> smps
[16:40] <adamgreig> what's the capacitors like on that?
[16:40] <mclane_> I have just checked the vdd noise on my atel design, it is much lower (few mV)
[16:41] <eroomde> is the smps layout identical in each case?
[16:41] <mclane_> yes
[16:41] <eroomde> can anyone tell me what i should size a 5V psu to supply for running a pi model b+ and a wifi donle?
[16:41] <eroomde> 1A cont?
[16:42] <mclane_> it is a TPS61201 output caps are 22 uF tantal and 100 n
[16:42] <AndyEsser> I've had a b+ run from the 500mA on a USB port before
[16:42] <AndyEsser> the USB on the Pi will also provide 500mA, so I guess a 1A would be fine
[16:43] <AndyEsser> s/would/should
[16:43] <eroomde> with smps it's not so much the calue of the cap that's important (thought that is important) as the layout
[16:43] <AndyEsser> I am no expeert :)
[16:43] <eroomde> especially in that switching loop on the output side
[16:43] <Laurenceb_> is it was smps itd probably be periodic noise
[16:43] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> 1 Amp ought to be fine http://raspi.tv/2014/raspberry-pi-a-how-much-power-does-it-need
[16:43] <Laurenceb_> is it periodic on the scope?
[16:43] <mclane_> yes, about 1 MHz
[16:43] <eroomde> sounds like an smps switching freq
[16:47] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[16:47] <Laurenceb_> I've seen "ublox noise" due to poor power supply, but thats not as simple - its a function of changing current demand by the asic
[16:52] <mclane_> something interesting - I removed the debugger and the noise is gone
[16:53] <adamgreig> is your debugger trying to provide 3v3 power as well?
[16:56] <Laurenceb_> uh oh
[16:56] <Laurenceb_> heh I should have though of that
[16:56] <Laurenceb_> yeah probably ground loop or something
[17:01] <mclane_> no, the debugger does not provide power
[17:02] <mclane_> sorry, I have to leave now thanks for the hints
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[17:04] <adamgreig> noisy power lines are such a faff
[17:04] <eroomde> there are a lot of split grund islands in that layout
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[17:16] <Laurenceb_> inb4 leo
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[17:30] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[18:03] <SM0ULC-Reb> mm, -40C in northen part os Sweden right now. chilly.
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[18:17] <realborg> time to pray for global warming
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[18:57] <fsphil> -2c forecast for here next week :)
[18:58] <fsphil> even that will cause chaos
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[19:25] <Vaizki> unnecessary gratiutious 10MHz faceoff update: GPSDO and Anritsu OCXO are still 0,004Hz apart
[19:25] <Vaizki> and in other news, it's reallllly cold outside
[19:26] <Vaizki> -23.8
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[20:00] <mikestir> Vaizki: drive clocks with your oscillators and take one up a hill
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[20:14] <Hiena> http://flightclub.jalopnik.com/can-you-use-your-farts-to-propel-yourself-in-zero-gravi-1735435493
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[20:16] <Vaizki> mikestr, why?
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[20:54] <Geoff-G8DHE> Vaizki, I think it might all be "Relative" to where you are ;-)
[20:54] <Vaizki> yea I get that part and the angular velocity but.. not sure what fun I should get out of that
[20:55] <Vaizki> (not that many people would consider watching those 2 frequencies on a screen as "fun" anyway)
[20:55] <Geoff-G8DHE> Me neither ....
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[20:57] <Vaizki> the geek in me is thrilled that it takes over 4 minutes for one free running 10MHz signal to pass another by 1 cycle on the screen of my scope.. the normal person in me is like "so is there a free delegate lunch or a cocktail party later?"
[21:00] <Vaizki> also the XY display is a hypnotic hula hoop.. good for another few hours of fun!
[21:06] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03hkLo1 after 037 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=hkLo1
[21:08] <Lunar_Lander> nice!
[21:11] <Vaizki> I'm sure there is a program to calculate allen deviation but then I would have to join the time nuts mailing list
[21:11] <Vaizki> allan..
[21:16] <Laurenceb_> I wish there was a frequency source good enough to track rockets with a single receiver
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[21:16] <Laurenceb_> and suitable for putting on a rocket
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[21:22] <Laurenceb_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26fLK9m4eNE
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[22:09] <michal_f> nice one Laurenceb_
[22:09] <michal_f> but this one isbetter :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0no7WNdlRA
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[23:24] <mikestir> Vaizki: http://www.leapsecond.com/great2005/
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[23:42] <Vaizki> ah.. well that doesn't work for GPSDOs you know :)
[23:43] <Vaizki> unfortunately I do not own atomic clocks, just some TCXO/OCXO and now a single GPSDO..
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[23:50] <mfa298> hmmm, how did we ever cope when dsl was 256 or 512k downstream. My ADSL seems to have reverted to the early '00s and its unusable.
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[23:51] <mfa298> I suppose it is at least ADSL still (576 down, 886 up)
[00:00] --- Thu Jan 7 2016