highaltitude.log.20151224

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[00:02] <Lunar_Lander> good night :)
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[00:42] <Laurenceb_> this is interesting
[00:42] <Laurenceb_> http://www.flightclub.io/results.php?id=79776950-d53b-495b-a88b-05044230edb9&code=OG22
[00:42] <Laurenceb_> didnt realise the fuel use was so high
[00:42] <Laurenceb_> I guess the ballistic coefficient is very high
[00:43] <Laurenceb_> 2km/s entry burn :S
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[00:50] <Laurenceb_> this is how they should do it http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US3508724
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[01:52] <Laurenceb_> http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19660027976.pdf
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[01:57] <Laurenceb_> saturn V recovery, thats insane
[02:27] <SpeedEvil> There were some truly wacky ideas proposed
[02:30] <Laurenceb_> the performance of that thing utterly destroys spacex
[02:30] <Laurenceb_> 3% mass fraction of the first stage
[02:30] <Laurenceb_> they were flying with 70 tonnes of spare propellant
[02:30] <Laurenceb_> this would be 900kg total
[02:31] <Laurenceb_> probably less as they could trim the stage right down - maybe even no RCS
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[02:32] <Laurenceb_> also no large recovery barge, just a regular boat with a grabber arm on the front
[03:32] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RIA-20 after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RIA-20
[03:52] <SpeedEvil> It does smell rather like something you could invest billions in and not get to work
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[07:43] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ikire_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ikire_chase
[08:15] Nick change: DL7AD1 -> DL7AD
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[08:44] <gonzo_> anyone heard/seen the VLF TX at Grimeton?
[08:45] <gonzo_> 17.2kHz
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[09:08] <DL7AD> gonzo_ when it is active today?
[09:10] <gonzo_> saw a report from about an hour ago
[09:10] <gonzo_> may still be running, if that was the tuneup
[09:10] <DL7AD> note, that all energy which is not used, is fed into a resistor :P
[09:11] <DL7AD> so if there's no beep, there's still a radiator :D
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[09:15] <SA6BSS-Mike> I was listening to it, it tx:ed for about 40minutes earlier today
[09:15] <SA6BSS-Mike> VVV DE SAQ SAQ SAQ CQ CQ CQ DE SAQ SAQ SAQ <BT> THIS IS GRIMETON RADIO/SAQ IN A TRANSMISSION USING THE
[09:15] <SA6BSS-Mike> ALEXANDERSON 20 0 II *T T KW ALTERNATOR ON 17. 2 KHZ <BT> IN 20 0 6 II 200 MEE STARTED OUR CHRISTMAS TRANSMISSIONS AND WE WILL AGAIN WISH YOU ALL A MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A
[09:15] <SA6BSS-Mike> HAPPY NEW YEAR <BT> SIGNED : THE WORLD HERITAGE AT GRIMETON AND THE ALEXANDER-GRIMETON <VE>TERANRADIO VAENNER ASSOCIATION <AR> <BT> FOR QSL INFO PLEASE RE* *R WEBSITE
[09:15] <SA6BSS-Mike> * E * WWW . LEXANDEA . N. SE * II * WWW. ALEXANDER ' N ' SE _ <BT> DE SAQ SAQ SAQ
[09:15] <SA6BSS-Mike>
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[09:17] <SA6BSS-Mike> was using my sdrplay with hdsdr (sdrconsole did not work at all)
[09:17] Nick change: Steffan__ -> Steffann
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[09:20] <gonzo_> nice catch
[09:20] <gonzo_> how far are you from it?
[09:21] <SA6BSS-Mike> not verry far, about 200km
[09:21] <gonzo_> All my antennas or disconnected at the mmo, so can't listen.
[09:21] <SA6BSS-Mike> where are u located?
[09:22] <realborg> is it still transmitting?
[09:22] <SA6BSS-Mike> no
[09:26] <SA6BSS-Mike> there are usuly 2 tx/year / christmas eve morning and Alexanderson day last sunday June
[09:29] <gonzo_> South coast UK. The uaual RX antenna is only a voltage probe, but works supprisingly well.
[09:31] <SA6BSS-Mike> ok, voltage probe is that similar to a miniwhip? have to google that
[09:34] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HORUSLORA after 035 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HORUSLORA
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[09:57] <gonzo_> yes, I think it is a design based/copied on the miniwhip
[09:58] <gonzo_> j-fet gate directly to a probe, then a buffer stage to drive the line
[09:59] <gonzo_> the most difficult bit is making a bias T to feed it (and the extraction at the ant end) that will block the really low freqs
[10:10] <SA6BSS-Mike> ok, looks like it yes, have one to and they do work verry well on 30m and down
[10:11] <gonzo_> there is some reason that they roll off above 10MHz. Gate capacitance?
[10:22] <SA6BSS-Mike> dont know?
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[10:28] <gonzo_> I have a probe of about 30cm of PCB in some drainage pipe. uses to be screwed to the side of the shed.
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[11:42] <Davespice> Merry Christmas everyone!
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[11:45] <gonzo_> You mute be in quite a timezone if it's xmas there already!
[11:50] <AndyEsser> morning all
[11:52] <zyp> gonzo_, in some countries, we consider it to start on the 24th
[11:53] <AndyEsser> WHY?! Christmas is bad enough as it is... why stretch it out another day!
[11:53] <AndyEsser> *bah humbug*
[11:54] <mattbrejza> and some countries have another christmas on the 6th
[11:56] <gonzo_> our xmas celebration is boxing day. With the family
[11:56] <gonzo_> tomorrow will be a non-event
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[12:30] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VE2WMG-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VE2WMG-11
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[13:00] <Lunar_Lander> merry christmas
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[13:56] <Ian_> In Spain it has become a hybrid affair. Christmas eve is the special meal, parents get drunk Christmas day and boxing day. The kids get presents or coal at Epiphany on 06 January and the kids are back to school on 08 Jan.
[13:56] <Ian_> All fixed by responsible adults :)
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[13:59] <realborg> Ian_, kids don't get their presents until after the holidays?
[14:00] <eroomde> it's not after, there
[14:00] <Ian_> Unless of course they are like mine, where they celebrate Christmas and then want an extra bite at the cherry with the traditional Three Kings.
[14:00] <eroomde> ephiphany is a holiday iirc
[14:01] <Ian_> Christmas is the religious festival
[14:01] <eroomde> when the 3 kings arrived
[14:01] <Ian_> Epiphany is the time for gifts
[14:01] <Ian_> When the three kings arrived 12 days after the birth
[14:03] <Ian_> These days they get Christmas presents and a token present at the Epiphany.
[14:03] <Ian_> but it depends upon the family traditions of course
[14:04] <Ian_> Are you having turkey suse vide?
[14:04] <Ian_> e e e sous vide
[14:06] <eroomde> just normal oven style i think
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[14:35] <mattbrejza> Ian_: is the tradition of the kids hitting a log to get presents a spanish thing or just a catalan thing?
[14:56] <Ian_> Penata a wicker skeleton of a lamb (typically) covered in tissue and filled with sweets is general throughout Spain
[14:57] <Ian_> I guess that a log is just a simplification of the original. It is hung on a string from somewhere convenient and the kids get to thrash the life out of it
[14:57] <Ian_> Probably gets them ready for donkeys in later life :)
[14:58] <Ian_> Not a good joke of course!
[14:58] <Lunar_LanderA> merry christmas
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[17:30] <Lunar_Lander> merry christmas
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[18:45] <fsphil> nearly!
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[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> xmas special http://gerblook.org/pcb/oBZy97sC8TmEWws4wgpeuV#front
[19:22] <Lunar_Lander> yay christmas mail from britain
[19:22] <Lunar_Lander> a length of piano wire
[19:23] <fsphil> lol
[19:23] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[19:23] <Lunar_Lander> for a new balloon sensor
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[19:43] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ria-20a_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ria-20a_chase
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[19:46] <SA6BSS-Mike> ps-57 just called home from venezuela on wspr
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[19:47] <Lunar_Lander> yay!
[20:11] Action: Laurenceb_ was scaling this to Falcon 9 scale
[20:11] <Laurenceb_> http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19660027976.pdf
[20:11] <Laurenceb_> ends up with a 900kg recovery system
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[20:12] <SpeedEvil> heh
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> thats considerably less than the dry mass of the existing system
[20:12] <SpeedEvil> if, and only if they can get 'gas and go' working, it would be less operationally flexible though
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> its just a largish hot air balloon running at high temperature
[20:13] <Laurenceb_> yeah, but only slightly
[20:13] <SpeedEvil> true
[20:13] <Laurenceb_> it'd arguably be more flexible than their sea platform
[20:13] <SpeedEvil> as you can have a proper boat which can move at speed you mean
[20:13] <Laurenceb_> could handle higher waves and a fair bit of wind with a good grabber arm
[20:13] <Laurenceb_> yes
[20:14] <SpeedEvil> I prefer my hexacopter idea.
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[20:14] <SpeedEvil> :)
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> http://www.flightclub.io/results.php?id=79776950-d53b-495b-a88b-05044230edb9&code=OG22
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> someone did an independent sim of the flight
[20:15] <SpeedEvil> Neat!
[20:15] <Laurenceb_> insane amount of spare fuel needed for their return to launch site
[20:16] <Laurenceb_> like 50% or so
[20:16] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[20:16] <Laurenceb_> but the suprising thing is the huge delta v on reentry
[20:16] <SpeedEvil> Lots less for a sea-recovery
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> no
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> most of the delta v is for reentry
[20:17] <vaizki> lots less fuel
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> due to the high ballistic coefficient its punch straight through the atmosphere otherwise
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> vaizki: look at the graphs
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> its counter-intuitive
[20:19] <SpeedEvil> I make it that without the boostback burn, the stage is ~30 tons lighter - and the second burn fuel cost ~halves
[20:19] <SpeedEvil> On a quick glance
[20:19] <Laurenceb_> yeah something like that
[20:20] <Laurenceb_> but reentry burn costs a massive proportion of the fuel
[20:20] <Laurenceb_> otherwise itd be doing about mach 4.5 when it reached the boat
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[20:20] <realborg> or it would have to use some passive deceleration
[20:21] <SpeedEvil> Is the above assuming ballistic?
[20:21] <SpeedEvil> I'm not sure if the lift you can get is ~0
[20:21] <SpeedEvil> i think the fins can cant it to a modest degree and get notable body lift
[20:21] <Laurenceb_> thats assuming drag coefficient of cylinder
[20:21] <Laurenceb_> hmm maybe, but that doesnt seem to be what they are doing
[20:22] <vaizki> It's xmas eve I'm not looking at graphs :)
[20:22] <Laurenceb_> probably as itd rip the stage apart for any decent effect
[20:22] <SpeedEvil> Also, the velocity is ~80m/s I thought near sea-level for terminal velocity
[20:22] <SpeedEvil> mach 4.5 seems high
[20:23] <SpeedEvil> Being able to zoom on these graphs would be nice
[20:25] <Laurenceb_> I get terminal velocity of around mach 1.5 for the stage
[20:25] <Laurenceb_> but thats not the whole story
[20:25] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: that seems very, very high for a ~30 ton 9m^2 or so stage
[20:25] <SpeedEvil> With a flat plate at teh bottom
[20:26] <SpeedEvil> Into 1.4kg/m^3
[20:26] <SpeedEvil> Or are you meaning that it doesn't have time to slow
[20:26] <Laurenceb_> yes
[20:26] <Laurenceb_> theres not enough time
[20:26] <Laurenceb_> thats why they have the reentry burn
[20:26] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[20:27] <SpeedEvil> i guess even modest body lift would help enormously
[20:28] <SpeedEvil> Of course - if the engines have to be on anyway in order for the bells not to be destroyed by buffeting, ...
[20:29] <realborg> if you don't waste all the energy to get a shuttle up there
[20:29] <realborg> you have plenty of energy to waste on re-entry burns
[20:29] <SpeedEvil> And of course - if actual gas and go does work - then all you've wasted is $50K in fuel
[20:29] <realborg> otherwise someone could think spaceflight is becoming cheaper
[20:29] <Laurenceb_> turns out nasa studied this problem in the 60s and looked at ballonet/balloon
[20:29] <SpeedEvil> (divided by 60 million)
[20:29] <Laurenceb_> it looks very sensible to me
[20:30] <Laurenceb_> yes - if you only want to lift a few tons its no problem as the cost is low
[20:30] <SpeedEvil> you use what - a very hydrogen rich burner?
[20:30] <Laurenceb_> get the same system could lift more with better recovery
[20:30] <SpeedEvil> (to make the balloon gas
[20:30] <Laurenceb_> just a ram air system
[20:30] <Laurenceb_> then propane burner
[20:31] <Laurenceb_> in the nasa study the inflation process gets it up to 150C
[20:31] <Laurenceb_> but propane is a bit lighter than making the envelope bigger (and allows control)
[20:31] <Laurenceb_> so smaller envelope at 300C or so with air
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[20:32] <Laurenceb_> they had first stage of Saturn 5 (180tonnes) recovery with 15 ton glass fibre based system
[20:33] <Laurenceb_> no we have kevlar and polyimide
[20:33] <SpeedEvil> I guess a lot of people would have been extremely wary of doing anything with this before the past few years even in principle
[20:33] <SpeedEvil> As simulating parachutes and balloons wasn't well understood
[20:33] <SpeedEvil> (to the degree it is at the moment anyway
[20:34] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[20:34] <Laurenceb_> "Made of aluminum honeycomb and carbon-composite materials, the four legs have a total mass of around 2,100 Kilograms"
[20:34] <Laurenceb_> lol it'd weigh less than just the legs
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[20:35] <SpeedEvil> I do prefer my other solution, but that seems even less likely.
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> It involves ~30 raptors on the barge.
[20:35] <Laurenceb_> lul
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[20:36] <Laurenceb_> apparently they flew a subscale demonstration of the saturn v system on a sounding rocket to 200km
[20:37] <SpeedEvil> There has been a truly astounding way of avoiding looking at actual plausible ways of saving money in space launch since the 60s.
[20:38] <SpeedEvil> The only acceptable approaches to saving money seem to be things that cost over a billion dollars each
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[21:02] <Laurenceb_> should be a chance of hearing PS-57 from UK soon (if anyone is around)
[21:15] <fsphil> it's doing well for what looks to be a pretty low float
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[21:33] <fsphil> yikes, the noise on HF has jumped a huge amonut here since I last looked
[21:36] <SA6BSS-Mike> its all the christmaslight in the garden and around
[21:37] <SA6BSS-Mike> wait a few weeks and the noise will (hopefully) decrese
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> and the proton that just launched
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> :D
[21:38] <SA6BSS-Mike> there is a ps-56 as well on its second circumvention, http://picospace.net/
[21:38] Action: fsphil remains neutral
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[21:54] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-57 after 039 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-57
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[22:58] <Flutterbat> this is pretty cool looking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLPWqCMb7DE
[22:59] <Flutterbat> hybrid rocket motor that uses its own body as fuel so to speak
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[23:04] <Flutterbat> probably nothing special, but it looks nice
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[00:00] --- Fri Dec 25 2015