highaltitude.log.20151219

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[00:15] <AndyEsser> evenin'
[00:34] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-57 after 0310 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-57
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[04:49] <DoYouKnow> hi
[04:50] <DoYouKnow> I figured out how to plot the spectrum for GPS on the ublox7, but I'm having trouble capturing IQ with CNP-IF
[04:50] <DoYouKnow> does it need another command besides CNP-IF executed first?
[05:21] <DoYouKnow> Hello...
[05:22] <DoYouKnow> Any europeans awake yet?
[05:48] Action: realborg !
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[06:48] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HORUSLORA after 034 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HORUSLORA
[06:59] <DoYouKnow> realborg: any ideas?
[07:00] <DoYouKnow> so, as I understand it, I need to enable CNP-IF message
[07:00] <DoYouKnow> s
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[07:24] <Vaizki> Öärgh?
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[08:10] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 032eoinc_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=2eoinc_chase
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[09:58] <russss> https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/678152249369952258
[10:02] <eroomde> wow
[10:02] <eroomde> that'd make for a nice xmas
[10:02] <Darkside> cool, thats about 11:30AM here
[10:02] <Darkside> on a monday
[10:03] <Darkside> means i have to figure out how to get the stream going at work
[10:03] <eroomde> i'll be driving north then
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[10:14] <russss> apparently they're trying "deep cryo" LOX at 60K on this one to increase performance
[10:17] <realborg> 45 years ago we launched to the moon and made it back
[10:17] <russss> this is true
[10:17] <realborg> launching into space should be as normal as flying a plane today
[10:19] <russss> that would be nice but I don't think it necessarily follows logically
[10:19] <russss> a spacelog co-collaborator made this which is neat http://apollo17.org/
[10:19] <russss> from the history department
[10:19] <murb> just sort out the huge energy requirements.
[10:19] <realborg> but technology has so far degressed that even a person jumping from a balloon is a major event
[10:20] <russss> it is indeed a problem of energy, as many things are
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[10:22] <realborg> fortunately we have an energy source so reliable and abdundant that it accounts for our very own existance
[10:22] <russss> difficult to fit one of those in a rocket though
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[10:23] <eroomde> getting into space is just really hard, energetically
[10:23] <eroomde> the oppression of the rocket equation
[10:23] <eroomde> it's never going to be easy
[10:23] <eroomde> tyranny not oppression sorry
[10:23] <eroomde> we're lucky we can get off earth at all - a bit larger in radius and we'd just not be able to get off it with chemical rockets
[10:23] <realborg> there have been revolutions in other areas
[10:23] <eroomde> yes realborg
[10:24] <russss> not so much in the laws of physics though
[10:24] <Hiena> eroomde: Actually it's due thechoose of wrong aerodynamic body.
[10:24] <eroomde> what did you have in mind for getting over the rocket equation?
[10:24] <eroomde> no longer having the law of conservation of momentum?
[10:24] <eroomde> please be specific
[10:24] <Hiena> eroomde: Hello, aerodynamic lift.
[10:25] <eroomde> because you often get very vague in this kind of conversation, because i suspect you don't really understand what you're talking about
[10:25] <realborg> eroomde, getting above the atmosphere first
[10:26] <eroomde> Hiena: i agree with you, as it happens
[10:26] <russss> I think eroomde could be argued to be a member of a choir in that area
[10:26] <eroomde> realborg: height doesn't help you much
[10:26] <eroomde> just velocity
[10:26] <AndyEsser> morning
[10:27] <realborg> eroomde, it's far easier to accelerate perpendicular to gravity than against it
[10:27] <Hiena> eroomde: In the atmosphere you could lift a body with 1/10th trust of it's weight. If you gains the velocity un the atmosphere you have to pay the drag penality.
[10:28] <eroomde> realborg: it's 1G easier
[10:28] <realborg> but than can only be done once you get rid of the atmospheric drag
[10:28] <eroomde> 'far' is a weird word that has no place in engineering, so don't use it
[10:28] <realborg> "ok"
[10:28] <russss> eroomde: amusingly I ended up talking to a friend of mine who is a civil servant in the department of health about rockets, and it seems like "Ignition!" has an unlikely following in the civil service
[10:28] <eroomde> russss: that's quite surprising
[10:28] <eroomde> although it is really well written
[10:29] <russss> I was surprised, he's also worked in civil defence/contingencies for a while though and it appears he knows a fair amount about missiles
[10:29] <eroomde> Hiena: the equation there works in your favour if you can get oxygen from the atmosphere whilst you were still in it
[10:29] <eroomde> russss: ah, could be from that
[10:30] <eroomde> it really has value in missile circles
[10:30] <eroomde> although the old westcott chemists were amazing people
[10:30] <eroomde> they tried all sorts of exotic and eye-popping things, all because of constraints beyond merely rockety ones
[10:30] <Hiena> Oh, that just one of the bonuses. Like the higher thermodynamic efficiency of the air breathing engines.
[10:31] <eroomde> but emission spectra, about of IR, storability in the same container as something else
[10:31] <eroomde> amount of*
[10:31] <eroomde> all these funny things that did weird phase changes just outside the nozzle which made them really very cool
[10:31] <eroomde> and so quite stealthy
[10:31] <eroomde> Hiena: it's more thna a bonus really, it enables the whole thing!
[10:32] <eroomde> but you still need to work mercillesly hard on reducing the base drag
[10:32] <eroomde> which is why all these ideas that use separate air breating and rocket engines are, i can only assume, not actually simulated properly
[10:32] <realborg> eroomde, you know the perlan project?
[10:33] <eroomde> nope
[10:33] <Darkside> realborg: hows that going?
[10:33] <Darkside> i thought one of the key players died
[10:33] <realborg> eroomde, http://www.perlanproject.org/
[10:34] <eroomde> realborg: it's cool
[10:34] <eroomde> but how's it relevant to space flight?
[10:34] <realborg> I am watching this very closely and think it will become a milestone for future spaceflight
[10:35] <realborg> if you can get a glider up there, you can get a rocket up there as well
[10:35] <realborg> how much fuel would that save?
[10:35] <Hiena> Not really. The aerodynamic bodies has several drawbacks. For example it's size. You have to do the base calculations with the MTOW and have to account the minimum liftoff speed and the initial L/D. For a shuttle size single stage spaceplane with 160 km/h take off speed, it's about two and half soccer field wing area.
[10:36] <eroomde> if you think it will become a milestone for future spaceflight, you presumably have reached that conclusion through some sort of quantitative understanding
[10:36] <eroomde> because otherwise how could you possibly have a valid opinion about it that you'd be willing to tell someone else
[10:36] <eroomde> so,
[10:36] <eroomde> you tell me, how much fuel would it save?
[10:36] <Hiena> Even using a mixed mode engines, you could cut only around 30% of the size.
[10:36] <realborg> Hiena, the shuttle was madness - attaching an aerodynmic body to a rocket
[10:37] <eroomde> if you haven't done any of that, then please just bugger off. these endless conversations with you where i put effort in and you don't come back with anything other than 'well what if edison had believed he could make a light bulb!' just piss me off
[10:37] <eroomde> and i don't know why i bother
[10:37] <russss> I like these cool airbus side-projects
[10:37] <realborg> eroomde, I'm not looking into rocketeers so i did not do the math
[10:37] <SpeedEvil> russss: I am now imagining a sidecar.
[10:38] <SpeedEvil> Strapped onto the wing
[10:38] <Hiena> realborg: The shuttle was reasonable idea with the constrains.
[10:38] <realborg> russss, another one for you: http://militaryaircraft-airbusds.com/Aircraft/UAV/Zephyr.aspx
[10:38] <russss> their little electric plane is neat too.
[10:38] <realborg> Hiena, the concept for the shuttle was great, like a plane being able to fly into space
[10:39] <SpeedEvil> Lifting space launch is very, very hard to do. It is not in principle impossible, but in many cases, it's a wash over conventional rockets.
[10:39] <SpeedEvil> The fun question is are there any realistic cases where it's not.
[10:39] <SpeedEvil> And well, I hope there are.
[10:39] <SpeedEvil> aren't.
[10:39] Action: SpeedEvil has lost track of his negatives.
[10:39] <SpeedEvil> I hope that it is possible to do better than simple rockets.
[10:40] <Hiena> realborg: No. The concept was controlled reentry and landing.
[10:40] <realborg> the problem with the shuttle was that it basically had to be rebuilt after every trip
[10:40] <eroomde> realborg: the shuttle was never designed to fly, in an aerodyanmic sense, into space
[10:40] <realborg> and they changed to horizontal liftof to a vertical and added rocket boosters
[10:41] <russss> the shuttle was never designed to use aerodynamic lift during ascent
[10:41] <russss> IIRC one of the concepts had aerodynamic first-stage return
[10:41] <Hiena> realborg: That was not a conceptual problem, rather the execution. For example the hinged heatshiels on the Spiral had lower maintennance.
[10:42] <russss> but the reason the shuttle itself had such an unreasonable amount of lift was due to a pile of department of defense requirements which they never ended up using
[10:43] <realborg> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_design_process#Shuttle_design_debate
[10:43] <Hiena> realborg: Nope. The first concept was a plane sitting on the top of the first stage. They moved it tothe side of the tank adue the reusability reason.
[10:43] <realborg> the first shuttle design were developments of the X-programme
[10:44] <russss> I am perhaps ignoring some of the original "concepts" which were just some futuristic drawings rather than anything rigorously designed
[10:44] <eroomde> when you don't have any technical know-how, you don't understand the difference
[10:44] <eroomde> which is the problem from which our friend suffers
[10:46] <eroomde> look this is silly, i don't know why i'm getting worked up on a saturday morning. realborg, good luck with everything. i'm probably not going to read anything else you write, unless you actually make some hardware and show me i'm wrong, or at least do some quantitative design work. i'm happy to be proved wrong, and i'd love it if you're one of the revolutionaries you cite.
[10:49] <realborg> eroomde, sorry to hear that, I always enjoyed talking with you
[10:50] <realborg> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_X-33 <- that's close to the original shuttle idea
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[11:04] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03NPY89T_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=NPY89T_chase
[11:08] <Hiena> realborg: The X-33 was a failure due they let the NASA in the project.(Same as the DC-X) Also the LH was a poor choice as fuel.
[11:10] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DL6JOS-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL6JOS-11
[11:12] <SpeedEvil> dc-x never really failed.
[11:13] <SpeedEvil> meaningfully.
[11:13] <SpeedEvil> X-33 was a systemic failure in demanding three novel things from a craft at the same time.
[11:13] <SpeedEvil> It was damn near guaranteed to fail.
[11:13] <SpeedEvil> (conformal tanks, linear aerospike, metallic TPS)
[11:15] <Hiena> Oh, it's failed not the technology side, rather the management side. Such programs has a common "NASA fuck-up" scenario. They running smoothly until the NASA not enters and kill them with meetings and paperworks.
[11:15] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DL2YED_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL2YED_chase
[11:17] <realborg> meetings and paperwork are a good concept to kill any project
[11:19] <realborg> hmm, the reasons we cannot buy a ticket to space for little more than an airline ticket are 1) energy / fuel 2) spacecraft/rocket requires rebuild / extensive refurbishing
[11:21] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KE0BMV-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KE0BMV-11
[11:21] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AE0SS-12 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AE0SS-12
[11:21] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-11 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-11
[11:22] <Hiena> At the DC-X launch failure, the root cause was overwork of the engineers. One missconnected line and bang, the project was closed. At the X-33 the original concept was metallic fuel tanks. The NASA pressed the composite tanks. The LM comply the NASA requiremets, but still started to manufacture the metallic tanks. When the composite tanks failed, the NASA got butthurt and cncelled the project.
[11:23] <Hiena> The metallic tanks was testets, Even at 2004 the LM built carbon composite tanks just for show.
[11:30] <Hiena> If you see the NASA and it's subcontractors, you could understand, why they don't want a reuseable spacecrafts. They are government funded not from the market. For a NASA project the cost does not matter until they could came up with a good reason. A cheap reuseable system would rise a questions about the costs.
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[11:36] <SpeedEvil> Elon Musk @elonmusk 2h2 hours ago
[11:36] <SpeedEvil> Currently looking good for a Sunday night (~8pm local) attempted orbital launch and rocket landing at Cape Canaveral
[11:36] <SpeedEvil> Oooh!
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[11:37] <fsphil> 1am here
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[11:38] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[11:38] <fsphil> and I have work the next morning. aww
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[12:04] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[12:06] <fsphil> afternoon
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[12:54] <fox123> DL6JOS-11 somebody recieves signals
[12:56] <fox123> DL6JOS-11 what mode use
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[13:33] <AndyEsser> fsphil: pish - don't need to be awake at work ;)
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[13:36] <AndyEsser> hey Lunar_Lander
[13:44] <Lunar_Lander> hi andy, how's life?
[13:44] <AndyEsser> Not too bad thanks
[13:44] <AndyEsser> just had to drop my very hungover brother home, but at least it means I can finally get back to doing some work :)
[13:44] <Lunar_Lander> yay :)
[13:46] <AndyEsser> going to try and get "very slow" RTTY programmed in so I can use some LEDs to test it's working, before increasing the baud ahead of ordering various modules etc
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[13:48] <Lunar_Lander> sounds good
[13:50] <Lunar_Lander> :)
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[14:04] <fsphil> AndyEsser: could probably get away with it. some dark glasses, program to make keyboard sounds
[14:04] <AndyEsser> hehe
[14:05] <AndyEsser> what do you do?
[14:05] <fsphil> make and break software
[14:05] <fsphil> and the odd website
[14:06] <AndyEsser> heh
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[14:43] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03norma_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=norma_chase
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[15:04] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KD0HIP-7 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD0HIP-7
[15:12] <Ian_> fsphil, deafness on 70cm . . . common problem needs a repair.
[15:13] <Ian_> Problem is actually caused by DC though filters, the modification which won't be done, is to couple the filters before and afterwards with caps.
[15:14] <Ian_> I have had two friends who have had the problem in the last year. I've forgotten the name of the firm who did the repairs, but they are located in Wales and used to be called Castle Radio, many years ago
[15:15] <Ian_> Primary business used to be, and probably is, Avionics. Got into amateur radio after coming to West Bromwich Central Radio Club to give a talk.
[15:16] <SA6BSS-Mike> yeah, common problem on the 857 and kenwood ts2000, had to change the filters in my ts2000, not a fun job!'
[15:16] <Ian_> The problem is well documented on the net and affects the three popular FT rigs.
[15:16] <fsphil> hiya Ian_. interesting, all the others failed on just 70cm too?
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[15:17] <fsphil> it does seem to transmit fine on 70cm, a friend was able to hear me a fair distance away
[15:17] <fsphil> I had a look inside and didn't see anything obviously broke, but I've nothing i can use to really test anything
[15:17] <Ian_> I am not sure if the filters are common to 2m and 70cm, but it's primarily a receive thing - but not certain about that.
[15:18] <SA6BSS-Mike> its a recive thing
[15:18] <fsphil> all the other bands seem to be fine
[15:18] <Ian_> Thanks on that Mike.
[15:18] <SA6BSS-Mike> there is also a common problem with the 857/897
[15:18] <SA6BSS-Mike> foing deaf on 6m
[15:18] <Ian_> Basically a design failure.
[15:18] <fsphil> typical
[15:19] <SA6BSS-Mike> fried transistor
[15:19] <fsphil> can't blame over-use in my case anyway :)
[15:19] <Ian_> You would have thought that the filter problem would have been designed out over the years.
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[15:19] <Ian_> Built in maintenance!
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[15:20] <SA6BSS-Mike> there is a new revision in the 857 wit blocking caps mounted
[15:20] <Ian_> That's good to hear, but it certainly took them long enough.
[15:21] <SA6BSS-Mike> http://sv8ym.blogspot.se/2014/03/good-news-yaesu-has-added-dc-blocking.html
[15:22] <fsphil> so it might have been caused by too much DC on the input?
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[15:23] <Ian_> No, it's residual DC because there was no DC blocking capacitors to prevent the problem of standing bias doing it's worst.
[15:23] <SA6BSS-Mike> there was a dc present on the filter witch caused it to draw moisture from the air and it coroded
[15:23] <Ian_> Saved eight caps in the design!
[15:23] <fsphil> eek
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[15:24] <fsphil> bbl
[15:24] <Ian_> SA6BSS-Mike does the detail, I just to vague impressions :)
[15:24] <Ian_> Not easy to get the filters as a private person I believe.
[15:25] <SA6BSS-Mike> yes the are on ebay
[15:25] <SA6BSS-Mike> not very expensive
[15:25] <fsphil> I've only had limited experience on replacing smd parts, and not on something as expensive as a yaesu :)
[15:26] <SA6BSS-Mike> in my kenwood there was two diferent ones, dont know about yaesu
[15:26] <fsphil> I'll probably just get a pro to do it
[15:26] <SA6BSS-Mike> I would not like to do this job again, it was a real pain to change them
[15:27] <fsphil> I bet
[15:27] <SA6BSS-Mike> there is a lot of guides on the net, read up and have a look, might be easier on yaesu
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[15:47] <Ian_> http://www.hamradiosales.co.uk/CASTLE-1A.htm They certainly do the repair, but don't know if they would do the modification for you
[15:49] <Ian_> They used to be at Kings Winford, then Halfpenny Green and move about ten years ago to Welshpool
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[15:53] <AndyEsser> interesting... _some_ sort of data is being received by the RS232 interface
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[15:57] <michal_f> !flights
[15:57] <SpacenearUS> 03michal_f: There are no flights currently :(
[16:02] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: you around?
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[16:18] <AndyEsser> woo, sending serial out of a normal pin at 4800 Baud :)
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[16:32] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/d5fd1bV
[16:32] <AndyEsser> :)
[16:33] <eroomde> nice AndyEsser
[16:35] <AndyEsser> cheers
[16:36] <AndyEsser> What's a typical baud rate people use for tX?
[16:36] <AndyEsser> TX*
[16:36] <eroomde> 50
[16:36] <eroomde> 300 usually works too
[16:36] <AndyEsser> really?
[16:37] <eroomde> but probably 50 is most common
[16:37] <eroomde> yes really
[16:37] <eroomde> ?
[16:37] <AndyEsser> fair enough :)
[16:37] Action: AndyEsser changes code to slow it down a bit ;)
[16:38] <eroomde> with no error correction and our typical link budgets, that's about where it needs to be for an acceptably low bit error rate
[16:38] <eroomde> in theory it could be much higher with better modulation and fec, but there you go. simple and dumb has its place
[16:39] <AndyEsser> hmm
[16:39] <AndyEsser> it broked now :(
[16:39] <AndyEsser> :P
[16:39] <AndyEsser> appears the timing is ever so slightly off
[16:39] <SpeedEvil> Fundamental problem is 'much better' results for 10mW/433 class transmitters can't do video anyway.
[16:39] <SpeedEvil> or decent pictures at range.
[16:39] <SpeedEvil> So...
[16:40] <eroomde> true but you can get about 10kbps down 3khz at typical ranges with 10mW
[16:40] <SpeedEvil> yeah.
[16:40] <eroomde> which would get you decent pictures much more easily
[16:40] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/w2G9Gzs
[16:40] <SpeedEvil> Well, yes. For some definition of decent.
[16:40] <AndyEsser> that is a weird error....
[16:40] <SpeedEvil> If you absolutely can't get a land-landing site by delaying.
[16:40] <russss> a pretty one though
[16:40] <AndyEsser> heh
[16:41] <eroomde> how are you generating the timing AndyEsser?
[16:42] <AndyEsser> the avr's built in delay library
[16:42] <eroomde> abaondon that
[16:42] <eroomde> users timers to generate an interrupt at the required interval
[16:43] <eroomde> in which you read the next bit and set the pin appropriately
[16:43] <eroomde> soft delays are not the way to do it
[16:43] <eroomde> use timers*
[16:43] <eroomde> well, a single timer
[16:43] <AndyEsser> okie dokie :)
[16:43] <AndyEsser> it's just odd that the artifact is only ever on the first part of the message
[16:43] <AndyEsser> heh
[16:43] <eroomde> there is, if you need, a good tutorial on interrupts with avr-gcc
[16:44] <AndyEsser> and never the first char...
[16:44] <AndyEsser> ha
[16:44] <AndyEsser> eroomde: cool - already have other interrupts in - so should be good :)
[16:44] <AndyEsser> shall get to work on switching it over
[16:44] <AndyEsser> but at least as a POC the software timers worked at least
[16:44] <eroomde> but if you're happy with it anyway, then just implement it that way - it's much more robust and entirely removes the need to subtract the instruction time around the soft delay
[16:44] <eroomde> and you can also sleep between interrupts instead of chansing your tail and maximum cpu
[16:45] <eroomde> which will be useful if you want to go down the low-power (eg pico) route
[16:45] <AndyEsser> not subtracting the instruction time is likely why this fails at > 4800 Baud etc
[16:45] <eroomde> yes
[16:45] <eroomde> that's usually the reason
[16:45] <AndyEsser> eroomde: yep, already have plans for sleeping and stuff to minimise power usage
[16:45] <eroomde> cool
[16:45] <eroomde> well, timers and interrupts. they're really the way to microcontroller zen.
[16:45] <eroomde> EOM
[16:45] <AndyEsser> eroomde: I'll end up getting super competitive with myself and trying to get the power usage down as low as possible :)
[16:46] <AndyEsser> EOM?
[16:46] <eroomde> end of message
[16:46] <eroomde> however i shall retsart it
[16:46] <eroomde> you can probably go down to sort of 1MHz xtal
[16:46] <eroomde> that'll help a lot
[16:46] <eroomde> you can do that with an 8mhz xtal and the divide-by-8 fuse
[16:46] <AndyEsser> yea
[16:46] <eroomde> or just use a 1mhz xtal of course
[16:46] <AndyEsser> cool :)
[16:46] <AndyEsser> well let me get this switched over to interrupt timers
[16:46] <AndyEsser> then I can always look at other stuff later
[16:47] <eroomde> the gps will be the thirstiest bit
[16:47] <AndyEsser> brb
[16:47] <eroomde> you can play with the low power modes but they can be a bit delicate and in need of thorough testing - for example in some of the power-save modes on the ublox, it won't actually re-aquire a lock if it loses it during low power mode
[16:47] <Laurenceb_> talking of GPS, has anyone tried to see how fast ublox 8 can update?
[16:47] <Laurenceb_> if its running in GPS only mode
[16:48] <eroomde> so you would have to manually put it back into aquisition mode
[16:48] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: 18hz in gps-only iirc
[16:48] <Laurenceb_> thats what it says
[16:48] <Laurenceb_> but earlier ones can go a bit faster
[16:48] <eroomde> ah i haven't counted properly - i just tried it on my screen and it looked plausibly like 18hz
[16:48] <eroomde> and accounced itself as such
[16:49] <Laurenceb_> ok
[16:49] <Laurenceb_> earlier ones could be taken a lot higher than spec
[16:49] <Laurenceb_> but the timing would go a bit glitchy until eventually they would get killed by their watchdog
[16:51] <chris_99> I was just trying to find the name for a weight that is manipulated inside a rocket, to tilt the rocket, anyone know what that is called?
[16:52] <eroomde> i've never heard of that
[16:52] <jedas> gyroscope ? :)
[16:52] <Laurenceb_> the failure
[16:52] <eroomde> gyros used to provide torques to turn, certainly (control moment gyros)
[16:52] <Laurenceb_> the control response will reverse at burnout
[16:52] <Laurenceb_> so its be a nightmare to make it work
[16:53] <chris_99> ah, i thought the gyro was only used to obtain say acceleration, i didn't realise it could effect the rockets direction, cheers
[16:53] <eroomde> gyroscopes can't measure acceleration
[16:53] <eroomde> let's disambiguate this now
[16:53] <eroomde> there are two categories of gyroscope used in guidance, navigation and control
[16:54] <chris_99> ah, is it roll,pitch,yaw they can provide?
[16:54] <eroomde> 1) measurment gyroscopes - they measure angular displacement and angular rates. they measure, not affect, just measure. they are small things, used to be precision mechanical jobs, not usually done electrostatically or with lasers
[16:55] <eroomde> 2) there are gyros used for control - control moment gyros. they are spun up to some rate and then rotated about some axis *other* than their main rotational axis. the result of this is a torque about the 3rd remaining axis
[16:55] <AndyEsser> chris_99: control wheels/reaction wheels
[16:55] <eroomde> no
[16:55] <AndyEsser> KSP FTW
[16:55] <AndyEsser> :)
[16:55] <chris_99> ah cheers eroomde!, that makes a lot of sense
[16:55] <eroomde> reaction wheels are not gyroscopes and do not rely on gyroscopic phenomena
[16:55] <eroomde> they are not relevent to this conversation
[16:56] <AndyEsser> apologies
[16:56] <eroomde> however they are an additional means of creating a torque, a bit like thrusters
[16:56] <AndyEsser> my understanding of reaction wheels was your 2) above - apologies for getting the two conflated
[16:56] <eroomde> gyroscopes confuse people
[16:56] <eroomde> AndyEsser: focus on the bit about rotation about an axis other than the main one
[16:57] <eroomde> to create precision - a torque about the 3rd axis - the axis that is a cross-product of the other two
[16:57] <eroomde> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cRb0xvPJ2M
[16:58] <Laurenceb_> if you want to control a rocker with control moment gyros or reaction wheels.... you seem to be making your job too hard
[16:58] <Hiena> https://youtu.be/WHQEiHu9vNI?t=84
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[17:00] <AndyEsser> eroomde: yep seen that video before, that's what I thought reaction wheels did
[17:01] <AndyEsser> so reaction wheels aren't rotated around an axis then?
[17:01] <AndyEsser> (other than their primary rotation)
[17:01] <eroomde> exactly
[17:01] <AndyEsser> ah, thank you
[17:01] <eroomde> they just relay on the reaction wheel generating an equal and opposite torque to the one that the electric motor applies to it
[17:01] <eroomde> (reacting, in other words)
[17:02] <Laurenceb_> I wonder if there is any way to fit an attitude control system onto a tiny rocket
[17:02] <eroomde> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woCdjbsjbPg
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[17:03] <eroomde> cool huh?
[17:03] <eroomde> hi jcoxon
[17:03] <jcoxon> hi er
[17:03] <jcoxon> eroomde,
[17:04] <jcoxon> eroomde, there seems to be another person with 'er' as the first chars of their nick
[17:04] <jcoxon> as i can't therefore do tab completion you'll just have to change your nick now
[17:04] <jcoxon> sorry
[17:04] <jcoxon> ;-)
[17:04] <eroomde> i can always make that problem go away
[17:05] #highaltitude: mode change '+o eroomde' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[17:05] <jcoxon> oi oi
[17:05] #highaltitude: mode change '-o eroomde' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[17:05] <jcoxon> all well?
[17:05] <eroomde> if stalin did channel operating
[17:05] <eroomde> yep good
[17:06] <eroomde> finished yesterday
[17:06] <eroomde> tired
[17:07] <jcoxon> off for christmas then
[17:07] <AndyEsser> eroomde: that's very cool :)
[17:08] <eroomde> jcoxon: yep. vegging today, then going to the beach for a few days tomorrow onwards
[17:08] <eroomde> then sussex
[17:08] <eroomde> do you get much time off?
[17:08] <AndyEsser> the beach? in december? in England?!
[17:08] <eroomde> not that kind of beach break
[17:09] <eroomde> more fish+chips and bracing blizzard walks
[17:09] <AndyEsser> heh
[17:09] <eroomde> were it not 17C
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> ...
[17:09] <jcoxon> norfolk?
[17:09] <eroomde> yep
[17:09] <AndyEsser> I remember trying to play mini-golf next to a beach in October once...
[17:09] <AndyEsser> that was interesting
[17:09] <AndyEsser> :P
[17:14] <Laurenceb_> move to Canada and you could just play it on the Sea
[17:15] <AndyEsser> heh
[17:17] <Ian_> eroomde: cruciform parachute. Five squares sewn together for stuctural symetry or one strip (3U) and tw squares? and
[17:18] <eroomde> 2x 3u
[17:18] <eroomde> crossed over
[17:19] <eroomde> obvious the doubling up in the middle is suboptimal mass-wise, but it's a smallish penality for the gain in ease of construction
[17:19] <Ian_> OK. structural and physical symetry . . . thought that might be overdoing it
[17:19] <eroomde> obviously*
[17:19] <Ian_> Many thanks.
[17:19] <eroomde> note again that it's not 3:1 ratio on each band
[17:19] <eroomde> but 3.x:1 where x is whatever i said it was
[17:19] <eroomde> 6-8 iirc
[17:20] <Ian_> Got that.
[17:20] <eroomde> cool
[17:20] <RocketBoy> w = l/3.6
[17:20] <eroomde> thanks
[17:22] <AndyEsser> 50 baud = 20ms pulses?
[17:22] <eroomde> yep
[17:22] <AndyEsser> hmm... putty might not be able to handle 50 baud...
[17:24] <eroomde> if only there was a proper operating system you could use
[17:24] <AndyEsser> *sigh*
[17:25] <eroomde> but srs - hyperterm can probably do it fine
[17:25] <AndyEsser> hyperterm is still around?!
[17:25] <eroomde> there must be loads of serial port programmes for dows
[17:26] <AndyEsser> putty is the most common serial port client I've seen for windows
[17:26] <mattbrejza> putty will be (probably) able to handle it, but the device/driver may not
[17:26] <AndyEsser> mattbrejza: ah yes, that might be it
[17:26] <mattbrejza> i have found this before when we had an uplink at 37.5 baud
[17:27] <mattbrejza> 'proper' ports at the back of old pcs were fine, usb serial ones were not
[17:27] <AndyEsser> well in the driver itself, the lowest built-in setting is 75 baud
[17:27] <AndyEsser> so I'd hope that it'd allow that at least
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[17:28] <AndyEsser> ah there we go
[17:28] <AndyEsser> 75 Baud working in my software mode
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[17:32] <AndyEsser> !ping
[17:32] <SpacenearUS> 03AndyEsser: No contact from 03
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[17:57] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03vishal_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=vishal_chase
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[18:10] <AndyEsser> https://twitter.com/LeadHyperion/status/678275893429706753
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[18:52] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KJ4TDM-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KJ4TDM-1
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[18:59] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03N4XWC-1 after 034 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N4XWC-1
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[19:37] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03UBSEDS7 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=UBSEDS7
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[19:49] <Evya89> where can I find a plot or a table of wind direction vs height?
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[19:52] <Lunar_Lander> Evya89, there is no general table
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[19:52] <Lunar_Lander> http://weather.uwyo.edu/upperair/sounding.html but here you can look at recent balloon soundings
[19:53] <craag> You could look at the raw noaa forecast data
[19:53] <craag> as used by the predictor
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[19:53] <Lunar_Lander> when you click on a station on the map, you get a chart with the most recent sounding and "DRCT" and "SKNT" give the wind direction and speed
[19:53] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:53] <craag> but it's not in a particularly east to use format
[19:53] <craag> *easy to use
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[20:00] <Evya89> do someone know how to use it?
[20:00] <Evya89> this site is complicate
[20:01] <Evya89> and I'm looking for a day from July 2015
[20:03] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03UBSEDS12 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=UBSEDS12
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[21:13] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah ha a UBSEDS flight tomorrow, sure someone will approve it soon!
[21:18] <craag> http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=3375de04a5b425f02ef4856ac792d05218fdebdb
[21:19] <craag> wrong way :)
[21:19] <craag> *:(
[21:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> Wrong way ?
[21:19] <craag> north
[21:20] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yer not ideal, and my beams are out of commision at the moment so co-linear only...
[21:20] <SA6BSS-Mike> no its the right way (if it stays in the air) http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=8d541472478b7639b3ab7b76c6ae19c2867241d4
[21:20] <SA6BSS-Mike> :)
[21:20] <craag> haha
[21:21] <Geoff-G8DHE> :)
[21:21] <Geoff-G8DHE> Right well its setup if they fly earlier than I intend getting up at leat ;-)
[21:25] <SA6BSS-Mike> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/178259_trj001.gif
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[21:26] <craag> SA6BSS-Mike: Missed a '-'
[21:26] <SA6BSS-Mike> it will travel fast, bummer I?m at work all afternoon but I?l set up yagi in right direction and run it remote
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[21:37] <Laurenceb_> is spacex launching tonight?
[21:37] <Laurenceb_> oh tomorrow night?
[21:37] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Sunday
[21:38] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> is going to be the hole digging day ;-)
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> heh
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> I hope they successfully land the first and second stages.
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> Really surprise everyone :)
[21:40] <russss> on top of each other
[21:40] <gonzo_nb> was that the onethey tried to land on a barge?
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> yes
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> several times.
[21:40] <russss> yes except this time they're landing it on the ground
[21:41] <gonzo_nb> they were so close, the one I saw
[21:41] <russss> because fuck barges or something
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> It has landed on water and on the barge several times in manners that may in principle have succeeded if it was on land
[21:41] <gonzo_nb> I prefer onion ones
[21:41] <russss> air force have taken pity on them and given them permission to try landing on the ground
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> The risk is 'low'
[21:42] <russss> presumably on the assumption that their last few attempts have always resulted in, at worst, collision with the barge
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> on the last several landings, they have come down at almost exactly the right place, at close to 0 speed, with close to 0 fuel left
[21:42] <russss> and not say collision with the sea 5 miles away
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> There is well, well under a ton of propellant left
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> It's several orders of magnitude less risky than a launch going awry
[21:44] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Ah its 01:29 on the 21st GMT :-(
[21:46] <russss> yeah I'll probably stay up for this one
[21:46] <russss> don't know what their window is for it actually
[21:47] <russss> oh, instantaneous window
[21:47] <russss> I think you have good odds of it not happening
[21:48] <russss> they've been having some issues with their superchilled liquid oxygen
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[21:51] <adamgreig> it is very cold lox
[21:51] <adamgreig> the air force base in question is being totally* evacuated prior to landing apparently
[21:51] <adamgreig> * except critical ops staff
[21:54] <Vaizki> I thought they are trying to land at the cape?
[21:54] <adamgreig> yes
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[21:58] <Vaizki> ah yes here https://www.google.fi/maps/place/Launch+Complex+13,+Cape+Canaveral,+FL,+USA/@28.4428053,-80.5638859,12.2z
[21:58] <russss> I think if you're being technical, they are launching from KSC and landing at CCAFS?
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[22:35] <SA6BSS-Mike> craag: ah got it http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/178555_trj001.gif
[22:36] <craag> better for you I think SA6BSS-Mike :)
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[22:37] <Vaizki> hmm what flight is that?
[22:37] <SA6BSS-Mike> well I?m not that north so it might get a bit hard but we will see.
[22:38] <SA6BSS-Mike> Vaizki: UBSEDS12 tomrrow
[22:38] <Vaizki> ok hmm
[22:38] <fsphil> http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=16fdba9d73514a678f71f15b6f0b0e19c20afaee
[22:38] <fsphil> I can send a letter to santa
[22:38] <Vaizki> ah contestia...
[22:40] <Vaizki> so this is a qualatex floater?
[22:42] <SA6BSS-Mike> likley so
[22:42] <Vaizki> I see they have a Finn on their "committee".. it'll be alright then :)
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[00:00] --- Sun Dec 20 2015