highaltitude.log.20151218

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[06:17] <arko> fsphil: one of my friends is a CogE for MarCO!
[06:17] <arko> super cool project :)
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[07:24] <fsphil> it is! hope it all goes well
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[07:37] <x-f> http://spaceweathergallery.com/indiv_upload.php?upload_id=120844
[07:37] <x-f> good morning, world.
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[07:44] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-11 after 0319 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-11
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[08:06] <fsphil> http://www.russianspaceweb.com/iss-soyuz-tma19m.html#probe
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[08:30] <lz1dev> #..####.##..#...#..#...#...###.#.#.#..#....#.##..#...##...#..#.....##..#####....#.##..##....##.#....
[08:30] <lz1dev> .#..#..#..#.###...##..#.##.....#...#..##....#####.##............####.#..######..#.#.##.#...#..#...##
[08:30] <lz1dev> #.....##.##.##.#..##.#..###...#.#.#..##..###.####.####.#.####.#...##.#..###.........#.###...#....###
[08:30] <lz1dev> #.###..#######..##..#.....##.#.#.###.#.##..#.##..##.##.#.##...###.#...#.#####.#.##..#.#####..#.#####
[08:31] <lz1dev> ops
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[08:34] <fsphil> reminds me of those old punch tapes
[08:36] <lz1dev> http://adventofcode.com/day/18
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[08:37] <fsphil> ah, like a game of life
[08:38] <lz1dev> its the same thing
[08:43] <gonzo_> I thought that! 5 unit xmas greeting
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[08:47] <Ian_> The best one that I ever actually made myself was the first one. Unfortunately I hadn't got the aspect ratio right and it had to be viewed at an angle to appreciate the art properly.
[08:47] <Ian_> Not a lot of fun in a tape relay centre around Christmas, although some just banned them, which thinking back was probably a good idea.
[09:01] <AndyEsser> morning
[09:02] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03F6AGV after 032 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=F6AGV
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[09:11] <Rob_VK1KW> Has anyone seen the CW from PS-56 which is apparently still in flight - 10.1387Mhz @ 1000Hz please
[09:11] <UpuWork> .flights
[09:11] <SpacenearUS> 03UpuWork: Current flights: 03F6AGV-2 10(28fd)
[09:15] <gonzo_> suspect it's unlikely to have come inmto the northern hemisphere
[09:16] <Rob_VK1KW> still in the southern ocean area best guess
[09:16] <gonzo_> I did see a whole office where they had made streamers from the 5unit pun ch tape, with merry xmas punched in holes
[09:17] <gonzo_> I have a tty unit, but punch tape is too rate to use up like that now
[09:17] <gonzo_> rare
[09:18] <gonzo_> (if anyone has any, I could find a home for it!)
[09:18] <Rob_VK1KW> PS-57 came clse to equator at -5.8deg lat almost made it
[09:22] <Rob_VK1KW> great coverage from 30meter WSPR and JT9 PS-57 at 1105Hz
[09:24] <fsphil> is PS-56 only doing CW?
[09:25] <Rob_VK1KW> yes - apparently GPS failed early in the flight and only does the call sign in CW
[09:25] <fsphil> ah. shame
[09:26] <Rob_VK1KW> I don't know how often it transmits
[09:27] <Rob_VK1KW> maybe someone has more info?
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[10:04] <craag> fsphil: https://befinitiv.wordpress.com/wifibroadcast-analog-like-transmission-of-live-video-data/
[10:04] <craag> video transmission over wifi using packet injection at one end, and promiscuous mode at the other
[10:04] <craag> ie no association required
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[10:08] <Vaizki> you would probably need a motorized antenna mount and 14dBi 2.4GHz directional antenna for any chance with wifi
[10:08] <craag> sure
[10:09] <Vaizki> maybe even parabolic but the mount will become prohibitively heavy quickly for mobile use
[10:10] <craag> I wouldn't try mobile
[10:10] <Vaizki> hmm maybe something like http://www.amazon.com/TL-ANT2424B-Directional-Parabolic-connector-resistant/dp/B003CFATOW could still work
[10:10] <craag> have some portable, but stationary base stations
[10:11] <craag> let the chase car concentrate on recovery with rtty/lora
[10:11] <Vaizki> right.. well then a grid parabolic would do fine.. interesting idea
[10:11] <craag> or whatever
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[10:12] <fsphil> monitor mode, nice. I thought the only option was ad-hoc
[10:12] <craag> this appears to be far better suited
[10:12] <fsphil> which seems to be unsupported by most drivers these days
[10:12] <fsphil> yeah
[10:12] <craag> use it as a raw radio cahnnel
[10:12] <fsphil> especially with the option to receive even bad frames
[10:13] <craag> yeah adhoc isn't even in the 11n spec iirc
[10:14] <fsphil> hmm I have one of the tp-link radios they mention
[10:15] <Vaizki> yea me too, the TL-WN722N
[10:15] <Vaizki> with a directional 10cm square patch antenna
[10:17] <Vaizki> I still have that inmarsat antenna to take apart :D
[10:17] <Vaizki> huge thing sitting under my desk in the "cave"
[10:17] <fsphil> I don't see their source code, the zip file is empty. just have the SD images
[10:18] <fsphil> wondering if they have control over what mode the transmitter uses
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[10:22] <Vaizki> I will open an issue with him about the source.. I want to see it too
[10:25] <eroomde> theatre/music recording peeps
[10:25] <eroomde> are second hand microphones worth it
[10:25] <eroomde> and how much should i be paying for an sm58?
[10:28] <Vaizki> I don't know why a second hand one wouldn't work.. I mean they live in studios for decades, working just fine?
[10:29] <Vaizki> I got a second hand sm58 myself with a small PA and it works great.. it's like 15 years old by now
[10:31] <eroomde> yeah
[10:31] <Vaizki> mine doesn't have an on/off switch btw, something you should check for if you want it
[10:33] <eroomde> they seema lot cheaper without
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[11:08] <AndyEsser> It's alive!!! http://imgur.com/qFKDArB
[11:09] <SpeedEvil> :)
[11:09] <AndyEsser> if only I could just hit "Print" and have that table made and assembled by the time I got home :P
[11:09] <SpeedEvil> you can.
[11:10] <SpeedEvil> Probably not delivered.
[11:10] <AndyEsser> heh
[11:10] <AndyEsser> ah well, it's my xmas break project anyway :)
[11:10] <SpeedEvil> I could almost build it with what I've got here
[11:10] <SpeedEvil> Do you really want 2" thick tops?
[11:10] <AndyEsser> the tops aren't
[11:10] <AndyEsser> it's a 44mm frame, with a 12mm board on top
[11:10] <SpeedEvil> oh - those are false edges?
[11:11] <SpeedEvil> 12mm is a bit thin, unless it's supported in the middle
[11:11] <AndyEsser> there is a central support as well :)
[11:11] <SpeedEvil> That works then
[11:12] <AndyEsser> didn't originally have the supports on the legs, but when I looked at it, it looked very flimsy
[11:12] <AndyEsser> pretty sure this thing will be rock solid when I've built it :)
[11:13] <eroomde> you're maing a workbench?
[11:13] <SpeedEvil> There is a lot of force on the top joint, when the tabletop is pushed sideways
[11:13] <SpeedEvil> diagonal braces would greatly reduce that.
[11:13] <SpeedEvil> If they're going to sit in a pile of three, lightly screwed together, it's a much smaller issue
[11:14] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: I hope so, it's gonna need a hell of a balloon otherwise.
[11:18] <fsphil> I've got four posts holding up my desk, they're a bit wobbly. need to make a proper base for it sometime
[11:21] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-12 after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-12
[11:28] <Vaizki> all of my desks are with welded steel frames..
[11:28] <Vaizki> even the ikea ones.. which are actually very good
[11:28] <fsphil> there is a good metal frame in the office here, but nobody knows where it came from
[11:30] <Vaizki> http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/categories/departments/workspaces/18965/
[11:32] <AndyEsser> I have a couple of "cheap" ikea desks atm but my PC and stuff, but the tops aren't really all that sacrificial and they're expensive for what they are
[11:32] <AndyEsser> SpeedEvil: The shape shown in that image will be final image, but they'll all be connected together with a number of linear brackets
[11:32] <AndyEsser> eroomde: yes, yes I am
[11:33] <AndyEsser> finally putting to use some of the skills Chris taught me 15 years ago :P
[11:34] <eroomde> nice
[11:34] <eroomde> you can buy yourself a biscuit joiner
[11:34] <eroomde> his favourite thing
[11:34] <AndyEsser> eroomde: biscuit joiners are good if you're going to glue - but I want to avoid glue anywhere near this
[11:34] <AndyEsser> since I move a lot, I want it easy enough to unscrew and pack/move it
[11:34] <eroomde> fair enough
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[11:35] <AndyEsser> totting up the BOM for the above assembly brings it to about £90, the 2 Ikea desks I have were about £50 each
[11:35] <AndyEsser> so yea, much happier building something myself
[11:35] <AndyEsser> :)
[11:38] <AndyEsser> also, happier drilling big holes for cables in something I've built myself :P
[11:38] <Vaizki> craag & fsphil: https://bitbucket.org/befi/
[11:38] <Vaizki> the source for the wifibroadcast stuff
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[12:02] <AndyEsser> I need to set up an alias on my PC's... the number of times I type girt instead of git...
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[12:04] <eroomde> girt lush origin master
[12:05] <AndyEsser> heh
[12:05] <AndyEsser> glom
[12:06] <AndyEsser> also, the only type I push origin involves the -u flag, so only do that once - not really worth an alias for that
[12:08] <eroomde> i have always found that behaviour a bit odd
[12:09] <AndyEsser> how so?
[12:09] <eroomde> that that's not a default
[12:09] <AndyEsser> ah
[12:10] <eroomde> for handling upstream branches
[12:10] <AndyEsser> yea, it seems weird that if you're doing git push, you're going to an upstream, so why have to specify a flag?
[12:10] <fsphil> Vaizki: nice. looks like they're letting the driver/os handle modes
[12:10] <eroomde> do you ever hear anything from alex wray?
[12:10] <AndyEsser> nope
[12:10] <AndyEsser> occasionally try and see what he's up to
[12:10] <eroomde> he was at cambridge i think but i don't think i saw him more than once
[12:11] <AndyEsser> but haven't spoken to him... possibly since I left
[12:11] <eroomde> not heard anything since
[12:11] <AndyEsser> err... that's not true actually.. think he came on holiday with me one time when I was in sixth form
[12:13] <AndyEsser> eroomde: thought he went to UCL? or did he move to Cambridge for PhD?
[12:13] <eroomde> patrick went to ucl i though
[12:14] <eroomde> im pretty sure alex did maths at cam
[12:14] <AndyEsser> ah
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[12:17] <eroomde> i found this
[12:17] <eroomde> one github commit
[12:17] <eroomde> https://github.com/wrayal/Javascript-Raytracer
[12:17] <eroomde> the ray tracer he wrote in under 5k of js when he was 13
[12:18] <eroomde> he was a fairly special child
[12:18] <AndyEsser> yea
[12:18] <AndyEsser> I often reference his raytracer
[12:19] <AndyEsser> you know he managed to make a <1k version?
[12:19] <eroomde> in which language?
[12:19] <AndyEsser> js
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[12:19] <AndyEsser> it wasn't as featureful as the 5k one
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[12:20] <Flutterbat> thats my thought. a ray tracer isnt rocket science. but when you start implementing material features it can get massive
[12:20] <AndyEsser> but yea, the guy was crazy making a raytracer in JS... using IE
[12:20] <AndyEsser> *shudder*
[12:20] <AndyEsser> but impressive
[12:22] <Flutterbat> what i find impressive are the works from the guy who wrote bootchess iirc.
[12:22] <Vaizki> well you can run dos in a x86 emulator done in js..
[12:22] <Flutterbat> a program of only a few bytes that renders a flight through a city
[12:23] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: last christmas I was working on a NES emulator in JS :)
[12:23] <Vaizki> http://bellard.org/jslinux/
[12:23] <AndyEsser> Flutterbat: not bad
[12:23] <Vaizki> this one is quite fast actually
[12:23] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: holy crap
[12:23] <Vaizki> indeed
[12:24] <eroomde> his whole website will ruin your day
[12:25] <eroomde> he's a clever chap.
[12:25] <fsphil> he's done everything
[12:25] <Vaizki> oh.. this new one has ethernet?
[12:25] <fsphil> I get the impression he's very easily distracted
[12:26] <eroomde> i get the impression he's not
[12:26] <Vaizki> I wonder what the NE2000 emulation can be used for..
[12:26] <fsphil> "ooh emulato, no dvb-t over vg, nooo video compressio .. ah wait a C compiler..."
[12:26] <eroomde> 'ok so now i calculate the most digits of pi. goodbye'
[12:26] <eroomde> comes back a month later
[12:26] <eroomde> having not spoken to anyone
[12:26] <Vaizki> says 'it ends with 42'
[12:26] <AndyEsser> heh
[12:27] <eroomde> like you're looking at the list and thinking he's just a sort of party-trick nerd
[12:27] <eroomde> most pi digits
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[12:27] <eroomde> bit of sdr tomfoolery
[12:27] <eroomde> then you get to the bit where he wrote QEMU and ffmpeg
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[12:28] <AndyEsser> TinyGL - An OpenGL implementation for embedded systems...
[12:29] <fsphil> he hasn't updated his "last update" on the website in a while
[12:29] <AndyEsser> yea
[12:29] <AndyEsser> I saw that
[12:30] <fsphil> oh didn't see http://bellard.org/lte/ before
[12:30] <Vaizki> well BPG is newer than 2012 at least
[12:33] <Vaizki> oh he has a .js BPG decoder so you don't need browser support for the image format
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[12:34] <fl_0> re
[12:34] <fl_0> any news from F6AGV?
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[12:55] <michalfAFK> !flights
[12:55] <SpacenearUS> 03michalfAFK: Current flights: 03F6AGV-2 10(28fd)
[12:55] Nick change: michalfAFK -> michal_f
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[13:39] <DL5APR> Whats about F6AGV? any problems?
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[13:53] <fl_0> DL5APR: tag
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[14:03] <AndyEsser> UpuWork: What's shipping like atm?
[14:03] <UpuWork> can't see the sea from here
[14:03] <AndyEsser> hehe
[14:03] <UpuWork> not my best
[14:03] <UpuWork> err usual Post Office
[14:03] <AndyEsser> made me chuckle :)
[14:04] <AndyEsser> UpuWork: kk, I'm hoping to order a GPS and Radio module in the next few days :)
[14:04] <UpuWork> so if you order today should ship Monday
[14:04] <UpuWork> much later than that and its going to be after Christmas
[14:04] <AndyEsser> sure
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[14:06] <AndyEsser> I wouldn't really have time to look at them until after xmas anyway
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[14:15] <Ian_> Bread and dripping for Christmas then Upu . . . !
[14:16] <Ian_> You know you want to see it under the tree AndyEsser!
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[14:16] <AndyEsser> Ian_: heh
[14:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03F6AVG_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=F6AVG_chase
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[15:14] <Vaizki> under the tree? I assume you mean high up in the tree with half of it strung on a powerline
[15:15] <Ian_> That's probably right. better double up on the order . . . :)
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[16:41] <fab4space> hello, Laurenceb, adamgreig , is it possible to do bpsk from fsk? (with silabs for example)?
[16:41] <Laurenceb> fab4space: yes
[16:41] <fab4space> ahh :)
[16:42] <fab4space> with sx1276 I'm able to do m-ary fsk changing the frequency by offset of 62Hz
[16:42] <fab4space> at low bitrate (50/100bps) for example
[16:42] <Laurenceb> yeah you can do the same on silabs
[16:42] <fab4space> I'm wondering if we can cheat the radio module to do bpsk using this technique?
[16:43] <Laurenceb> yes
[16:43] <fab4space> is it possible to explain how to do this? I managed to do Contestia/Olivia using this technique and the TCXO used on the sx1276 module I had
[16:44] <fab4space> now I would want to do narrowband modulations based on bpsk
[16:44] <Laurenceb> you need delta f * time equal to 0.5
[16:45] <Vaizki> Why PSK btw? Noob Q...
[16:45] <Laurenceb> very good performance
[16:45] <fab4space> very good receivers are available
[16:46] <fab4space> so if delta_f is 50Hz for example
[16:46] <Vaizki> DPSK I assume?
[16:46] <fab4space> and bitrate is 50 bps
[16:46] <Laurenceb> I think you mean BPSK
[16:47] <Laurenceb> I'd keep the transition time short
[16:47] <Laurenceb> so like 250bps modem bit rate and 125hz spacing
[16:47] <Laurenceb> or whatever
[16:47] <Vaizki> No I mean differential, where you dont have a referebxe Carrier to compare phase to
[16:47] <Laurenceb> getting it to work with the hardware and a non weird spacing could be hard
[16:47] <Laurenceb> oh
[16:48] <Laurenceb> yeah maybe you could do that too
[16:48] <Vaizki> Argh iPhone irc
[16:48] <fab4space> i was thinking about BPSK
[16:51] <Vaizki> BPSK and DPSK are not mutually exclusive terms :)
[16:52] <fab4space> yes Vaizki :)
[16:52] <Laurenceb> yeah DPSK would allow more flexibility
[16:53] <fab4space> so for 250bps and 125hz that is:
[16:53] <Laurenceb> I know Leo made BPSK work at high rates
[16:53] <adamgreig> They talk about different things
[16:53] <Vaizki> But maybe use FEC
[16:53] <adamgreig> Honestly I'd just do bpsk and use a preamble that gives you the phase
[16:53] <Laurenceb> I haven't done the numbers for silabs
[16:53] <fab4space> delta_f = 125Hz, time = 1 /2500
[16:53] <fab4space> delta_f = 125Hz, time = 1 /250
[16:53] <adamgreig> Otherwise you trash your throughput
[16:53] <Laurenceb> it will depend a lot on xtal or tcxo frequency
[16:53] <adamgreig> I've done bpsk even just with an mtx2
[16:53] <fab4space> so it is : 125 * (1 / 250) = 0.5
[16:54] <adamgreig> You will want a decent receiver that can way way over sample so you can tune your delays
[16:54] <fab4space> so to do 250bps bpsk, we just need to do 250bps fsk with 125 Hz deviation?
[16:54] <adamgreig> https://twitter.com/adamgreig/status/633325049194389504
[16:54] <adamgreig> No
[16:54] <Laurenceb> not really
[16:55] <Laurenceb> that would give poor performance
[16:55] <Laurenceb> you need to swap phase quickly
[16:55] <adamgreig> You need to have very very short transitions to a certain deviation and spend almost all your time on just one tone
[16:55] <Laurenceb> yeah
[16:56] <Laurenceb> I did get this working about a year ago...
[16:56] <Laurenceb> forgot the setup lol
[16:56] <Laurenceb> but it was quite a fast datarate
[16:56] <adamgreig> So for 50bps bpsk maybe 500 bps fsk that looks like 0000000000 for no transition and 10000000000 for a change in phase
[16:56] <adamgreig> You have to differentially encode your data
[16:56] <adamgreig> (but that's not dpsk, you'd have to do that on top if you wanted it)
[16:57] <adamgreig> (don't though, just use a pilot to get the phase)
[16:57] <fab4space> so how do you achieve to do bpsk by just changing the central frequency of a continuous tone?
[16:57] <Vaizki> What is the receiver?
[16:57] <adamgreig> That tweet is old, somewhere I have screenshots of the eventual performance
[16:57] <fab4space> sdr
[16:58] <adamgreig> Which was really spot on, less than 1 degree phase error after 1k symbols
[16:58] <adamgreig> Brb
[16:58] <Laurenceb> yeah sounds about right - similar to what I got
[16:59] <Laurenceb> you need to design it carefully so there is no data dependant phase wobble
[17:00] <adamgreig> Yea
[17:01] <adamgreig> https://agg.io/u/mtx2psk5.png
[17:01] <adamgreig> fab4space: so like...
[17:02] <adamgreig> i can explain how this works and why it makes sense
[17:02] <adamgreig> do you understand IQ modulation?
[17:02] <adamgreig> but at the same time, possibly you should stick with fsk, it's not necessarily _worse_, depends
[17:02] <adamgreig> and it's certainly simpler
[17:02] <adamgreig> check out my rocking bpsk there though ^ it was fun
[17:02] <fab4space> adamgreig, thanks if you can explain how to do this. I need to do PSK
[17:02] <adamgreig> and that's just with a mtx2 which has an analogue modulation
[17:02] <adamgreig> why do you need to do psk?
[17:03] <fab4space> to do sigfox modulation
[17:03] <fab4space> which is based on bpsk
[17:03] <adamgreig> ok
[17:03] <adamgreig> do you understand iq modulation? at least vaguely?
[17:03] <fab4space> there are already radio modules which are doing Sigfox modulation
[17:03] <fab4space> based on LoRa sx1276 chips which only provide FSK modulation
[17:03] <adamgreig> interesting
[17:04] <fab4space> so I'm trying to understand how they have achieved that
[17:04] <adamgreig> it's straightforward at a certain level
[17:04] <fab4space> I don't know much of the IQ sorry
[17:04] <fab4space> :)
[17:04] <adamgreig> ok
[17:04] <adamgreig> hmm
[17:04] <fab4space> I managed to do FSK RTTY at 100 bauds and 1200bauds
[17:04] <fab4space> using SX1276
[17:04] <fab4space> and then managed to do CONTESTIA 4/250 using the same module and got very good perfomance
[17:04] <adamgreig> i'm going to explain in a way that is simpler if you don't know about IQ, but one day you'll look back and probably want to figure it out with IQ properly
[17:05] <fab4space> ok thanks!!
[17:05] <adamgreig> if you have a normal sine wave at some frequency, you have a constant carrier
[17:05] <fab4space> it is CW isn't it?
[17:05] <adamgreig> BFSK modulation involves changing the frequency of that between two frequencies, as you probably know
[17:05] <fab4space> yes
[17:05] <adamgreig> and that's the only control you have here - you can change the frequency of your signal, between some set levels
[17:05] <fab4space> yes
[17:06] <fab4space> so I have achieed m-ary FSK
[17:06] <adamgreig> BPSK is different - you can imagine it as a normal sine wave that occasionally inverts, i.e. swaps between sin(x) and -sin(x)
[17:06] <adamgreig> and it does the swapping at the zero-crossing points ideally
[17:06] <fab4space> ok
[17:06] <adamgreig> http://www.kics.edu.pk/wdsp/flextrainer/images/dspimages/BPSK_tx_image004.gif
[17:06] <adamgreig> like this
[17:06] <adamgreig> you see it's a sine wave at the same frequency the whole time, but sometimes it flips
[17:06] <fab4space> ok
[17:07] <adamgreig> so we want to achieve that
[17:07] <adamgreig> the gist is, at that point where it flips, we will instead very briefly make it a much higher frequency, and then back to the original frequency
[17:07] <adamgreig> while it's at the much higher frequency, it will move through the sine wave much quicker
[17:07] <adamgreig> by the time we put it back to the original frequency, it's moved through half the cycle of the sine wave
[17:07] <adamgreig> and then continues at the original frequency from that point
[17:08] <fab4space> ok I start to understand :)
[17:08] <fab4space> so the timing of the switch of frequency is crucial
[17:08] <adamgreig> so a sine wave at some frequency and phase is like sin(frequency*time + phase)
[17:08] <fab4space> we need to it exactly when it crosses the 0
[17:08] <adamgreig> no that's not crucial really
[17:09] <adamgreig> what's crucial is that the amount of time you spend at the higher frequency is very precise
[17:09] <fab4space> ok
[17:09] <adamgreig> no matter where in the cycle you swap, you'll still need to swap exactly half a cycle of phase
[17:09] <fab4space> so if we do active loop , it is ok
[17:09] <adamgreig> doing it at the zero crossing is good
[17:09] <adamgreig> i don't think you'll be able to do feedback to control this
[17:09] <adamgreig> you just need to work out the timing
[17:09] <fab4space> yes we cannot know when it crosses 0
[17:09] <adamgreig> indeed
[17:09] <adamgreig> it's not hugely important
[17:10] <fab4space> ok
[17:10] <fab4space> so the time spent in the higher freq is very important
[17:10] <adamgreig> (it gives better/smaller harmonics)
[17:10] <adamgreig> so because the input bitstream controls the frequency, a '1' swaps us to the higher frequency for a single bit period
[17:10] <adamgreig> so we want the single bit period to be precisely the amount of time you need to advance half a cycle
[17:11] <adamgreig> then you put 0s for the remainder of your actual data period
[17:11] <adamgreig> if you dont' want to swap phase (i.e. transmitting 00 or 11 of actual data) then you don't put a 1 in at all, just use all 0s
[17:11] <adamgreig> if you do want to swap phase (01 or 10) then you put a single 1 in and lots of 0s
[17:12] <adamgreig> you will probably need to calibrate the timing quite carefully
[17:12] <Laurenceb> so you need to preprocess your data before sending to the modem
[17:12] <adamgreig> yea
[17:13] <adamgreig> if your data was like 01001101 you'd send "00000000" "10000000" "10000000" "00000000" "100000000" "00000000" "10000000" "10000000"
[17:13] <fab4space> so we don't need to do FSK, just CW with changing the freq at precise timing
[17:13] <adamgreig> assuming you worked out the timing to be a very convenient 8 times the data rate lol
[17:13] <adamgreig> it is FSK
[17:13] <adamgreig> just the FSK pulses are very small
[17:13] <adamgreig> the timing will depend on your carrier frequency by the way
[17:13] <adamgreig> and need adjusting if you change channel frequency etc
[17:14] <fab4space> what is the fsk deviation, is it the psk freq shift?
[17:14] <adamgreig> psk doesn't have a freq shift
[17:14] <adamgreig> it's just one frequency...
[17:14] <adamgreig> the fsk deviation is as large as you can get it to keep the transition time as small as possible
[17:14] <fab4space> oh yes
[17:15] <adamgreig> this is a kind of fiddly thing to do that requires somewhat careful calibration - fun to play with but for anything you need to trust it might be better to get an actual psk transmitter...
[17:16] <fab4space> ok I understand why it is required to preprocess the data
[17:16] <fab4space> so the bitrate of FSK should be how much time faster than the bitrate of PSK?
[17:17] <adamgreig> it depends on your carrier frequency and etc
[17:17] <adamgreig> it's not a constant
[17:17] <adamgreig> you might need to make it very many times greater and have more than one bit set to 1 for the transition to have the right timing
[17:17] <fab4space> ok
[17:17] <adamgreig> (as both the ratio and the number of bits are integers so you can get fractions at least)
[17:17] <adamgreig> ok let's have a quick worked example then I have to run
[17:17] <fab4space> ok thanks adamgreig !!
[17:17] <adamgreig> say you're using 434.000000MHz carrier
[17:20] <adamgreig> (sec)
[17:21] <adamgreig> so yea, say 434MHz carrier, and your FSK deviation is set to 20kHz
[17:21] <fab4space> ok
[17:21] <adamgreig> if you have constantly 0s in your data, you'll transmit constantly 434MHz, and on your receiver tuned to 434MHz this is output as just DC, constantly 0
[17:22] <adamgreig> when you put a 1 in your data, you swap to 434.020MHz, and on your receiver you get a 20kHz sine wave output
[17:22] <adamgreig> you want that sine wave to complete just half a cycle
[17:23] <adamgreig> at 20kHz it takes 1/20E3 = 50 microseconds to do a complete cycle, so you need 25 microseconds
[17:23] <adamgreig> so roughly speaking you want your '1' to last for 25 microseconds, which is 40kHz
[17:23] <adamgreig> so your starting point is you set the FSK data rate to 40kbps, the deviation to 20kHz
[17:24] <adamgreig> now if you wanted 100bps PSK, you need 40k/100 = 400 bit periods per PSK symbol
[17:24] <Laurenceb> that'd be rather annoying
[17:24] <adamgreig> so for each bit of data to send, you give the radio either 400 0s (no change in symbol), or a 1 and then 399 0s (symbol transition)
[17:25] <Laurenceb> so in real world you might make deviation less
[17:25] <adamgreig> mm
[17:25] <adamgreig> well
[17:25] <adamgreig> so it depends on how much bandwidht you can afford to occupy
[17:25] <fab4space> lets say I need 100Hz bandwith
[17:25] <fab4space> and 100 bps
[17:26] <adamgreig> 100Hz what bandwidth? -3dB? -60dB?
[17:26] <adamgreig> in reality there'll be a low pass filter on the data stream (if nothign else then due to the PLL tuning time), so you will actually need to hold the '1' for longer - which means decreasing the FSK data rate (and decreasing the number of bits per PSK symbol)
[17:26] <adamgreig> (at the same deviation)
[17:26] <adamgreig> how much you need to decrease it you'll have to find out empirically
[17:27] <adamgreig> so actually there are no first order effects of carrier frequency
[17:27] <adamgreig> which is nice
[17:28] <fab4space> ok , just the deviation is important in fact?
[17:28] <adamgreig> to first order, yea
[17:28] <fab4space> ok
[17:28] <adamgreig> probably the pll tuning time will depend on carrier frequency which will change that tuning you need to do
[17:28] <adamgreig> and i should emphasise how important that tuning is - if you don't do it the results will be pretty junk
[17:29] <adamgreig> instead of a clean 180' phase transition each time, you'll get something smaller, so you won't come back to where you started after two transitions
[17:29] <adamgreig> also - doing this gives you a quite lopsided spectrum, because your transitions are all phase advances (with no phase decreases)
[17:29] <adamgreig> which means you get a sort of |\ shaped spectrum
[17:29] <adamgreig> rather than the /\ you'd get if you did "real" psk
[17:30] <adamgreig> you can get around this to some extend by donig 3FSK instead but that will usually compromise the deviation you can get away with
[17:30] <adamgreig> depends on your requirements
[17:30] <adamgreig> (and you do 3FSK by doing 4FSK and ignoring the 4th symbol)
[17:38] <fab4space> ok adamgreig and Laurenceb thanks you all these explanations
[17:39] <adamgreig> my advice is still to consider getting a bpsk transmitter if you need something reliable but this is quite fun :P
[17:39] <fab4space> I will take time to understand what it implies for my appliaction
[17:39] <fab4space> the idea would be to have sigfox support
[17:39] <fab4space> on top of a lora module
[17:39] <fab4space> which is what some companies have already achieved
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[18:08] <Vaizki> Sigfox for hab tracking?
[18:10] dg3yjb (b2093da0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.9.61.160) joined #highaltitude.
[18:12] <Laurenceb> haha
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[18:12] <Laurenceb> way to annoy sigfox
[18:12] <Laurenceb> wonder if we could use it in UK
[18:12] <Laurenceb> just try to get reception from the network in France
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[18:29] Nick change: Guest33007 -> nigelvh
[18:37] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DG3YJB_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DG3YJB_chase
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[18:57] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DL5APR_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL5APR_chase
[18:58] <Vaizki> i thought you have to pay sigfox per device subscriptions...
[19:01] <Ian_> Cruciform parachute construction: effectively five squares, but is it best to fabricate it that way for all-round symmetry or s 3U strip and two squares to avoid unnecessary seams?
[19:05] <AndyEsser> Eurgh :( Not much more for me to do with uC programming now until I have additional modules for it :(
[19:07] <Vaizki> you already have rtty interrupts chattering out?
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[19:09] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: I don't have an easy way to test that - I'd be writing code blind
[19:09] <AndyEsser> unless I slow the rate right down and just use LED's?
[19:10] <Vaizki> no logic analyser or scipe?
[19:10] <AndyEsser> nope
[19:10] <AndyEsser> on my list
[19:10] <Vaizki> also rtty out is just ttl serial
[19:11] <AndyEsser> I did want to look at writing my own ttl serial library for the IC
[19:11] <AndyEsser> since there's only 1 UART
[19:11] <Vaizki> you can verify it with any ttl serial rx
[19:11] <Vaizki> ftdi cable?
[19:11] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: I already have an RS232-TTL serial converter set up :)
[19:12] <AndyEsser> I have an RS232 interface via Putty for setting/getting config :)
[19:12] <Vaizki> so just talk to that for a start
[19:12] <AndyEsser> so if I can write the appropriate functions, I can test it easy enough
[19:12] <Ian_> Use the UART to key an oscillator and listen for common patterns. It's not pefect, but a useful start
[19:12] <AndyEsser> Ian_: oscillator or oscilloscope?
[19:13] <Vaizki> I mean you can make the rtty ttl output and just listen to it with the ttl-rs232
[19:13] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: Yea, I hadn't realised rtty was just serial
[19:14] <Ian_> Oscillator or buzzer that you can listen to
[19:14] <AndyEsser> I guess if I just write my TTL serial library, and test that, then can easily program it to send the RTTY signals before plugging it into the RF module
[19:14] <Ian_> I'm assuming that you might be familiar with a 50 baud RTTY signal
[19:14] <AndyEsser> Ian_: I am not
[19:14] <AndyEsser> until 2 weeks ago, I'd never heard of RTTY
[19:14] <AndyEsser> :P
[19:15] <fsphil> not all systems work down to 50 baud
[19:15] <Ian_> Ah, OK, forgive me I came here via Telegraphist, then amateur radio
[19:15] <Ian_> It gets more difficult as the baud rate goes up
[19:15] <AndyEsser> Ian_: no worries :) I did electronics and stuff about 15 years ago, and then dropped out of it
[19:16] <AndyEsser> got back into it with the announcement of the Pi Zero, and then remembered that eroomde did HAB and Rocket stuff and tried to track him down, and that lead me here :)
[19:16] <Vaizki> with avr, I wouldnt go to writing general purpose serial libs etc
[19:16] <AndyEsser> but but
[19:16] <AndyEsser> aww :(
[19:16] <Vaizki> just do what the rtty needs
[19:16] <Vaizki> becauae you will get memory crunch sooner or later
[19:16] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: so just hook Putty up, and get the the actual RTTY I want output to show up?
[19:17] <AndyEsser> :)
[19:17] <AndyEsser> *sigh* a 2nd USB->Serial interface would be so much nicer here
[19:17] <AndyEsser> ha
[19:17] <AndyEsser> Next on my list is a USB->TTL serial cable
[19:17] <AndyEsser> rather than the USB->Serial->MAX232 that I have atm
[19:20] <Vaizki> well rtty is like serial but you can get away with quite simple interrupt code to send out sentences vs a full seial lib
[19:20] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: I will likely not key my RTTY off interrupts (unless you think I should?)
[19:21] <dbrooke> For my test tracker I just set the RTTY timer interrupt to give 1200 bps for testing to a PC and then back to 50 for the NTX2B
[19:21] <AndyEsser> I'll have the GPS UART input triggered by interrupt, take the value from that, and store it in memory
[19:21] <AndyEsser> then every 2000 ms or whatever, send out an RTTY message
[19:21] <AndyEsser> although suppose that would be much nicer as a timer overflow interrupt
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[19:21] <dbrooke> it's the bit timing for the RTTY
[19:22] <Vaizki> sending out a normal rtty sentence at 50 baud will take you almost 10secs
[19:22] <AndyEsser> *shudder*
[19:22] <Vaizki> but yes I would definitely set up an AVR timer to generate interrupts at 50Hz and send out bits from the ISR
[19:23] <AndyEsser> gah... managed to yank a bunch of cables out of my DB9 when trying to re-arrange my breadboard
[19:23] <Vaizki> done it myself and its dead simple if you have ever done any interrupt programming
[19:23] <AndyEsser> *sigh*
[19:23] <AndyEsser> time to relocate downstairs and resolder
[19:23] <AndyEsser> back in a few mins
[19:29] <Vaizki> oh and I did gps via i2c to leave the only serial for debugging...
[19:30] <Vaizki> I thought i2c and ubx was the easy way to do it really
[19:31] <AndyEsser> Ah, everyone seemed to suggest common was serial, but if I can ublox and I2C then I can preseve my serial CLI :)
[19:31] <AndyEsser> and I've just been summoned to company drinks
[19:31] <AndyEsser> so shall actually make the RTTY stuff my goal this weekend
[19:32] <adamgreig> I2c is a pain, I'd do serial
[19:32] <adamgreig> But it is workable...
[19:32] <AndyEsser> imagine i2c doesn't generate an interrupt as it's Master driven?
[19:32] <AndyEsser> so instead has to be poleld?
[19:32] <AndyEsser> polled*
[19:33] <AndyEsser> sorry, g2g - back later/tomorrow
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[19:48] <Laurenceb> heh i2c
[19:48] <Laurenceb> to be fair ublox i2c works well
[19:50] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:54] <Lunar_Lander> you order two TQFP atmegas and get the whole tablet with them :D
[20:02] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DL2YED_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL2YED_chase
[20:02] <Laurenceb> is 24 bit sampling in wav files possible?
[20:02] <Laurenceb> maybe I should shut up and try it
[20:07] <Vaizki> http://www.naimlabel.com/musicstore-test-files.aspx
[20:07] <Vaizki> seems so...
[20:07] <fsphil> it does 32-bit floats at least
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[20:11] <Laurenceb> error: wavwrite: sample resolution not supported
[20:11] <Laurenceb> matlab says no
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[20:13] <Laurenceb> https://www.gnu.org/software/octave/doc/interpreter/Audio-File-Utilities.html#Audio-File-Utilities
[20:13] <Laurenceb> octave yes perhaps....
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[21:06] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03DL0CRE-11 after 034 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL0CRE-11
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[21:57] <Laurenceb> lol so Octave can read 24 bit wav but not write it
[21:57] <Laurenceb> nvm I only want to read
[21:58] <Vaizki> wav file formats are so damn difficult
[21:58] <fsphil> useful
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[22:00] <Vaizki> what I was wondering about today is why isn't there any standardized dead simple way to stream i/q and audio data over udp from software to software in the sdr world..
[22:00] <Laurenceb> wut wav is simple
[22:00] <Vaizki> I mean perfect sync and time codes and what not are fine and dandy but how about starting just with a 1.0 that gets those streams from A to B with some format info .. :P
[22:01] <Laurenceb> http://soundfile.sapp.org/doc/WaveFormat/
[22:01] <Vaizki> Laurenceb: yes it was sarcasm
[22:01] <Laurenceb> nvm lol
[22:01] <Vaizki> sorry about the internet's bad conductivity of tone :)
[22:02] <Laurenceb> my job: adding new datalogger formats then writing server side shitty script in hacked gnu-octave
[22:02] <Laurenceb> to be fair they do have a decent site now http://octave.sourceforge.net/packages.php
[22:02] <Laurenceb> I need to try the SQL stuff :D
[22:04] <Laurenceb> inb4 python
[22:11] <Vaizki> so is octave in general any good?
[22:11] <Vaizki> Although I have never used matlab in anger either...
[22:15] <Vaizki> Been meaning to grab octave by the horns actually to generate some signal data for my fancy pants sig gen which basically tells you to do it in matlab and convert to its format...
[22:19] <Vaizki> well what the hell.. I'm installing it now and taking a look
[22:19] <Vaizki> 651MB installer.. wow.. well at least it should do something :O
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[23:25] <Vaizki> ok that was kinda fun.. lots to learn there
[00:00] --- Sat Dec 19 2015