highaltitude.log.20151210

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[02:53] <Laurenceb> http://www.airship-convention2015.org/nc/programme/index.html
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[03:18] <slee> does anyone know the average transmitting range of a radiosonde?
[03:18] <lz1dev> horizon
[03:18] <slee> thanks
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[03:26] <Laurenceb> holy shit Kims latest troll video
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[07:37] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CALLSIGN123_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CALLSIGN123_chase
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[09:01] <AndyEsser> morning
[09:01] <fsphil> g'morn
[09:01] <AndyEsser> not sure about the g' bit ;)
[09:01] <AndyEsser> I'm soaked...
[09:02] <fsphil> ah yes it's a bit damp over there
[09:02] <AndyEsser> little bit :P
[09:02] <AndyEsser> not as bad as it was one day the other week, where I walked in
[09:02] <AndyEsser> and my Brother and the MD just burst out laughing
[09:02] <fsphil> lol
[09:02] <fsphil> (sorry)
[09:03] <fsphil> yeah it was an interesting weekend
[09:03] <fsphil> not sure I've seen as much rain
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[09:05] <AndyEsser> fsphil: thanks for the support ¬¬
[09:05] <AndyEsser> :P
[09:06] <Vaizki> I forgot to mention yesterday that it was 1:30am in Finland and I'd just gotten back from 2 back-to-back xmas parties
[09:06] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: when we were chatting?
[09:06] <Vaizki> so any advice given should be ignored probably :)
[09:06] <AndyEsser> You were incredible cogent in that case then ;)
[09:06] <Vaizki> aye
[09:07] <Vaizki> wellll I feel a bit like this now.. https://i.imgur.com/zEH1zQV.gifv
[09:08] <AndyEsser> hehe, saw that yesterday
[09:08] <AndyEsser> it got many RT's
[09:08] <Vaizki> ah, I don't tweet
[09:08] <Vaizki> I am assuming RT is retweet
[09:09] <AndyEsser> it is, sorry
[09:15] <gonzo_> radio telegraphy?
[09:15] <gonzo_> (actually usually means telephony)
[09:17] <mfa298> going to need some FSTV (or a long time) to send a gif over that form of RT gonzo_ :p
[09:18] <fsphil> animated ssdv
[09:18] <fsphil> which has been done. and was sooooo slow
[09:22] <gonzo_> we've started playing with low rate vdatv at the flights club
[09:22] <gonzo_> as there is an atv repeater locally with dvb-s
[09:23] <fsphil> http://ssdv.habhub.org/images/2013-08-26--14-56-05-ELATED-520.gif
[09:23] <gonzo_> it was always 23cm digital output, they have added a 70cm digital imnput now
[09:24] <gonzo_> is the ssdv just an encapsulated generic file, or it is just jpg (and you have made a gif from multiple jpg's)?
[09:24] <fsphil> multiple jpegs
[09:25] <fsphil> actually was sent as a very tall jpeg
[09:25] <fsphil> each frame just added vertically
[09:25] <gonzo_> ok. That is good. Otherwise it would not be long before some pc type suggests sending xml files with the telemetry frames in!
[09:25] <fsphil> the decoder had some extra bits to fill in gaps with data from the previous frame
[09:25] <fsphil> which turned out not to be needed anyway
[09:26] <gonzo_> supprising how good the uk rx network is. Very few missing blocks ion ssdv flights
[09:26] <fsphil> xml packets from their gadgeteer
[09:27] <gonzo_> I'm out of the loop at the mo, as all the brndles of cables have had to be pulled back from the shed, where the antennas are
[09:27] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: *shudder* HOW DARE THEE MENTION XML
[09:28] <gonzo_> a quote I saw. 'XML is like violence, if it's not working, you are not using enough!'
[09:28] <AndyEsser> o god
[09:28] <gonzo_> I hate it. Bloaty
[09:28] <AndyEsser> yep yep
[09:28] <fsphil> xml in xml
[09:28] <AndyEsser> if you really need a human readable file format
[09:28] <AndyEsser> use JSON nowadays
[09:28] <AndyEsser> even then, that's overkill
[09:28] <AndyEsser> I prefer binary formats for everything personally
[09:29] <eroomde> morning
[09:29] <AndyEsser> how was the xmas do?
[09:29] <eroomde> we all survived
[09:29] <AndyEsser> \o/
[09:29] <AndyEsser> so far ;)
[09:29] <gonzo_> have almost daily arguments between the PC types, who have only known PC (that is pretty much evebry one but me). And me from microcontroler/low level interfacing
[09:29] <AndyEsser> 24 hour incubation period
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[09:29] <eroomde> all went down quite well
[09:29] <eroomde> not too much left over
[09:29] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: this I think is what caused me to have many arguments at places I've worked before
[09:29] <eroomde> success
[09:30] <AndyEsser> CS students that have only ever programmed Java or C#
[09:30] <AndyEsser> and then myself who has experience on microcontrollers, embedded systems, assembly and c
[09:30] <AndyEsser> and like
[09:30] <gonzo_> we have binary, packed into xml. So the worst of bothe worlds!
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[09:30] <AndyEsser> "WHY ARE YOU BEING A MORON!!"
[09:30] <eroomde> gonzo_: oh i have seen that before
[09:30] <AndyEsser> eroomde: glad to hear it
[09:30] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: i... err....
[09:30] <AndyEsser> *scratches head*
[09:31] <eroomde> for that robotic blimp thing i made, there was another group from finland working on a mesh network of weather stations along the glacier
[09:31] <gonzo_> drink lots of water and go for a stout lunchtime walk ed. Kill or cure
[09:31] <eroomde> they had little radio modems and they wanted to send maybe 16 byts of information every so often
[09:31] <eroomde> and all mesh down to the ground station
[09:31] <gonzo_> or a lunchtime walk for a stout. That is just as good
[09:31] <eroomde> anyway they decided towrap the 16 bytes in about 6k of xml
[09:31] <AndyEsser> :(
[09:32] <AndyEsser> surely just a header/footer byte signature would've sufficed...
[09:33] <eroomde> <message><nodename="1"><data><sensor><temperature><celcius>2</celcius></temperature></sensor></data></massage>
[09:33] <eroomde> that sort of thing
[09:33] <eroomde> anyway the mesh couldn't handle it all
[09:33] <eroomde> so they decided to then go for the typical brain-damage thing you do which is to make a bad binary version of all that
[09:33] <gonzo_> we have a binary format on our machines, thet pre-dates mopst of bthe people here. And you can feel them tugginbg to try and change to some bloat that they can get a library for
[09:33] <eroomde> and then wrap that in <binaryxml>[DUMP]</binaryxml>
[09:33] <AndyEsser> tell me they didn't encode things like the <message> bit?
[09:34] <eroomde> and then invent their own bad compression
[09:34] <eroomde> basically it was awful
[09:34] <eroomde> it was when i was introduced to the saying 'XML is like Violence. If it doesn't seem to be working, you must use more of it."
[09:34] <gonzo_> you couldn't make this shit up!
[09:34] <gonzo_> snaP!
[09:34] <eroomde> AndyEsser: you might like the robotic blimp
[09:35] <AndyEsser> linky?
[09:35] <eroomde> (i can slowly fill you in on the last decade of my nerding)
[09:35] <fsphil> I'm using msgpack+zlib for my solar data collection
[09:35] <fsphil> it works really well
[09:35] <AndyEsser> eroomde: it has beena while :P
[09:35] <eroomde> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K29dn0Mzspk
[09:35] <eroomde> have you heard anything from Ian?
[09:36] <mfa298> theres a lot to be said for http://i.imgur.com/FFmFzxJ.jpg
[09:36] <AndyEsser> no - I don't talk to anymore after I had to go and rescue his gf from his house
[09:36] <eroomde> er....
[09:36] <eroomde> maybe explain
[09:36] <eroomde> over pm
[09:36] <AndyEsser> It's not as bad as it sounds ;)
[09:36] <mfa298> if there's a library that does what you need, use it, dont try and build your own bad impllimentation
[09:36] <gonzo_> had one job where we needed to add ecryption to our comms. We were sending zmodem over an STX-crc type packet. Worked well. Then someone decided that the encryption would go into the whole stx packet, rather than just in the payload they we were zmodem-ing obver
[09:36] <AndyEsser> mfa298: heathen!
[09:36] <AndyEsser> :P
[09:37] <gonzo_> it was done that was as the person doing the stx comms was avail and the person doing the files wasn't
[09:38] <mfa298> although any libraries to convert good formats to xml should be banned.
[09:38] <gonzo_> and they then wondered why the zmodem sessions failed with even a single bit error
[09:39] <mfa298> the worst I've seen was a piece of software that had its config in multiple XML files, which then included ECMA script (javescript) to do bits of logic.
[09:39] <AndyEsser> mfa298: that is not as rare as you might think ;)
[09:39] <gonzo_> some projects look like a piece of CV design, rather than engineering design
[09:40] <AndyEsser> for the last few years I've been using the Java Spring Framework for Webapp software
[09:40] <AndyEsser> at first, all the config had to be done in XML (NO!! BAD!!)
[09:40] <AndyEsser> I rebelled
[09:40] <AndyEsser> thankfully newest versions can all be code driven config now
[09:41] <fsphil> previous version of some software we used here had extensive xml use. but faulty escaping. for a long time none of our customer names could have apostrophes
[09:42] <fsphil> or at symbols and <> signs
[09:42] <AndyEsser> *sigh*
[09:42] <AndyEsser> that's parsing 101
[09:42] <fsphil> yep. it only got fixed recently
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[09:43] <fsphil> introduced many new bugs too
[09:43] <AndyEsser> but of course :)
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[09:45] <eroomde> i think if people realised xml was just a subset of s-expressions then we ould have got lisp in by the back door
[09:45] <eroomde> and the world would be a much more exciting place
[09:45] <AndyEsser> eroomde: ¬¬
[09:45] <AndyEsser> you're one of them types....
[09:45] <eroomde> no that's haskell
[09:46] <eroomde> lisp isn't (strong/satically) typed
[09:46] <AndyEsser> *facedesk*
[09:47] <AndyEsser> so.... I went to a functional programming conference a couple years ago
[09:47] <AndyEsser> and thre was a workshop on Clojure, and we made a webapp
[09:47] <AndyEsser> ok... there's already so many languages for that
[09:47] <AndyEsser> then talked about erlang
[09:47] <AndyEsser> and the whole separate processes thing for everything was cool
[09:48] <AndyEsser> but... I still really struggle to see the real world purpose of functional programming languages, beyond just data analysis
[09:49] <eroomde> i dunno. Not that it's functional with a capital F but just boshing through the first 2 chapters of SICP was extremely useful for me
[09:49] <eroomde> and i want to finish it now
[09:57] <SpeedEvil> having more strings in your bow is always good.
[09:57] <SpeedEvil> Apart from in archery.
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[10:01] <chris_99> lol
[10:01] <gonzo_> you don't have to use all the strings at once, some could be considered spare
[10:02] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03DL0CRE-11 after 0320 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL0CRE-11
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[10:06] <cm13g09> to join in the XML/JSON/format wars.... if I'm on a modern x86 machine, yes, I'll use JSON/XML/something like that, if I'm working on uCs, I'll use binary blobs....
[10:06] <cm13g09> I far prefer my data streams to be readable
[10:06] <cm13g09> but recognise that on an 8-bit uC with 2K of RAM, binary formats are the way forward.
[10:07] <AndyEsser> cm13g09: in my web stuff for "normal" PC's, I'll still use JSON as the interchange format - it's just more convenient
[10:07] <AndyEsser> but for my custom engine, and file formats, it's binary all the way :)
[10:07] <chris_99> messagepack is kind of cool, for more compact data transmission
[10:08] <cm13g09> AndyEsser: yep - that's my view as well
[10:08] <fab4space> yes messagepack will be nice for lora binary messages, I have started to implement support of it in the lora-gateway
[10:08] <AndyEsser> And yea, especially if bandwidth is constrained
[10:09] <fab4space> for high spreading factors low bandwith messages for highest range
[10:09] <chris_99> cool fab4space :)
[10:09] <cm13g09> I also do slightly insane things.... I've got a platform that uses binary over RS485 on twisted pair copper to communicate with devices (because most of these things are uCs), but sometimes I need to get it across other transmission media.
[10:10] <cm13g09> So... I've an assorted range of RS485-to-something convertors
[10:10] <AndyEsser> RS485-over-pigeon
[10:10] <cm13g09> RS485 to ethernet.... RS485 to radio (using HC-11 modules).... RS485 to Bluetooth
[10:11] <cm13g09> AndyEsser: the most insane one I'm probably about to have to come up with: RS485 to Fibre :P
[10:12] <AndyEsser> haha
[10:12] <AndyEsser> nice
[10:12] <cm13g09> AndyEsser: there's logic behind why I need it....
[10:12] <AndyEsser> please tell me you're going to make it into some sort of SFP package that can just be put into a switch?
[10:12] <cm13g09> no
[10:12] <AndyEsser> aww
[10:12] <cm13g09> I'm going to do the EVIL thing
[10:12] <AndyEsser> literally just convert the pulses to light and vice versa?
[10:13] <fsphil> optical rtty :)
[10:13] <cm13g09> and back-to-back an RS485 <-> Ethernet and an Ethernet/FDX media convertor :P
[10:13] <AndyEsser> cm13g09: that's not _that_ evil ;)
[10:13] <AndyEsser> I'm sure we've all done much worse
[10:13] <cm13g09> AndyEsser: true....
[10:13] <cm13g09> you can blame this entirely on one of the companies I sell products into, who have just take on a new location....
[10:14] <gonzo_> didn't someone actually run an IP over pigeon link
[10:14] <cm13g09> there's ethernet to the Basement/Ground/1st floor from one cabinet....
[10:14] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: there was a video
[10:14] <AndyEsser> some guys in Oz proving a point
[10:14] <cm13g09> 2nd floor is on 8 fibres....
[10:14] <AndyEsser> 3 modes of transmission
[10:14] <cm13g09> and I'm praying they've left the other end installed....
[10:14] <AndyEsser> USB Key-in-car, Upload-via-WWW, and SDcard-over-pigeon
[10:14] <AndyEsser> the pigeon won, car came 2nd... and the www failed... miserably
[10:14] <chris_99> can't pigeons only send data to 127.0.0.1 though
[10:15] <gonzo_> there was a joke rfc so the decided to do it
[10:15] <cm13g09> chris_99: LOL
[10:15] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: there are lots of joke RFC's
[10:15] <AndyEsser> chris_99: +1
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[10:15] <gonzo_> how many are intentionally a joke though?!
[10:15] <cm13g09> gonzo_: Anything published on April 1st :P
[10:15] <AndyEsser> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxaqj4vp_oM
[10:15] <gonzo_> if I recall the did a ping, but with a round time of 3 hrs?
[10:17] <AndyEsser> there's an HTTP status code for making a tea
[10:17] <AndyEsser> HTTP 418 - I'm A Teapot
[10:17] <chris_99> heh
[10:18] <Vostok> AndyEsser: no
[10:18] <AndyEsser> no?
[10:19] <Vostok> AndyEsser: the protocol is for controlling coffeepots. 418 is an error response when trying to use that on a tea pot
[10:19] <Vostok> :)
[10:19] <AndyEsser> Vostok: in hindsight that it obvious
[10:19] <AndyEsser> my bad
[10:20] <AndyEsser> can I blame the fact I haven't finished my first coffee yet?
[10:20] <Vostok> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyper_Text_Coffee_Pot_Control_Protocol
[10:20] <AndyEsser> hmmm.....
[10:20] <AndyEsser> this makes me think of...
[10:20] <AndyEsser> A SCIENCE EXPERIMENT!!
[10:20] <AndyEsser> *klaxon plays*
[10:20] <chris_99> that looks like a teapot to me in their photos!
[10:20] <AndyEsser> boiling point of liquids is related to atmospheric pressure
[10:20] <gonzo_> the pigeon comms I meant was where they took an ip packet, printed it on paper, attached that to the birds leg
[10:20] <AndyEsser> therefore, the lowe r the pressure, the lower the boiling point
[10:21] <AndyEsser> I wonder if I can boil some water in a payload on a balloon, to make me a coffee for when it's recovered..
[10:21] <chris_99> haha AndyEsser
[10:21] <chris_99> genius
[10:21] <gonzo_> then at the rx end, they OCR'ed the packet and fed it back into ethernet. Then sent the icpm responseback on another pigeon
[10:21] Action: AndyEsser adds to list
[10:21] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: wow
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[10:21] <Vostok> gonzo_: AndyEsser: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_over_Avian_Carriers
[10:21] <gonzo_> you could boil water, but it would not be at temp, so would not makle coffee
[10:22] <chris_99> oh yeah :(
[10:22] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: yea, which is why apparently making tea at the top of everest tastes horrid
[10:22] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: DON'T RUIN MY SCIENCE!
[10:22] <gonzo_> sorry, physice really gets in the way sometimes
[10:22] <AndyEsser> Vostok: I love the ping responses there
[10:23] <AndyEsser> damn physics :(
[10:23] <gonzo_> tea tastes nasty even if it's just off boiling point
[10:24] <AndyEsser> tea tastes nasty...
[10:24] <AndyEsser> :P
[10:24] <AndyEsser> coffee > tea
[10:24] <gonzo_> that's fighting tallk. You... Outside!
[10:25] <AndyEsser> :)
[10:25] <AndyEsser> sorry, I really can't claim to be English at all :(
[10:25] <AndyEsser> lol... speaking of Erlang earlier
[10:25] <AndyEsser> Google Alerts has just popped up with Erlang and my company name...
[10:25] <AndyEsser> that's just creepy
[10:26] <gonzo_> I prefer oolong
[10:26] <chris_99> lol
[10:27] <AndyEsser> as anyone every launched simulataneous balloons?
[10:28] <AndyEsser> ever*
[10:28] <daveake> yup a few have
[10:28] <daveake> In at least 1 case (not mine) they tangled
[10:28] <AndyEsser> aww :(
[10:29] <AndyEsser> for some reason, I really want to launch two balloons, which preferably are able to communicate to each other
[10:29] <AndyEsser> but no idea what... for
[10:29] <AndyEsser> :P
[10:29] <daveake> actually 2 cases; in one they then untangled
[10:29] <gonzo_> there was a james may one a few years ago. Filled with pet ashes
[10:29] <gonzo_> and raced He vs H2
[10:29] <daveake> ah yes that one ... on YT I think
[10:29] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: did the H2 win?
[10:29] <daveake> Darkside and I also did H2 vs He
[10:30] <gonzo_> I forget, watch the yt
[10:30] <daveake> yes h2 won
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[10:30] <AndyEsser> and then exploded in a firey death :P
[10:30] <gonzo_> actually it was one of the better episodes for that series
[10:30] <daveake> I did a series of 3 balloons, launched on the same day but not the same time, that repeated each others transmissions
[10:30] <daveake> yes worth watching
[10:31] <gonzo_> lora?
[10:31] <AndyEsser> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB7KAoPl3Xg
[10:31] <daveake> yes lora
[10:31] <daveake> still worked after 2 of them landed
[10:31] <daveake> which was a lot of fun
[10:32] <AndyEsser> they put the ashes in the actual balloons....
[10:32] <gonzo_> comms between the 2 on the ground, or to the reamining airborne one>?
[10:32] <chris_99> in that case they could blow up the balloon in near space AndyEsser to scatter them
[10:32] <AndyEsser> chris_99: that makes sense I guess
[10:33] <chris_99> by that i mean, set the balloon on fire
[10:33] <gonzo_> did anyone rx them. I assume no-one knew what they were at the time.
[10:34] <daveake> gonzo_ After the 1st one landed, the other 2 repeated its landing position
[10:34] <gonzo_> at alt, there is prob not enough O2 in the air to comkbust
[10:34] <daveake> same after the 2nd one landed - the 3rd one repeated its landing position
[10:34] <chris_99> mix h2 with o2
[10:34] <gonzo_> sry I meant did anyone on the ukhas net rx the james may flights
[10:34] <daveake> ah
[10:34] <daveake> yes
[10:35] <gonzo_> but nice re. the lora repeat!
[10:35] <daveake> :)
[10:35] <gonzo_> assuming that they were anon flights till after the prog aired
[10:37] <daveake> iirc they were called "budgie" and "cat" but no I don't think people knew what it was about
[10:37] <AndyEsser> heh
[10:37] <AndyEsser> original naming
[10:39] <daveake> Done some searching. "budgie" was txing as "Canary" :)
[10:39] <gonzo_> have to watch it again and see if I can spot rx stations on the chase car maps
[10:39] <daveake> maybe the wrong bird died
[10:41] <daveake> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB7KAoPl3Xg
[10:41] <AndyEsser> eurgh... I'm going to have to touch makefiles aren't I
[10:41] <AndyEsser> daveake: I did just post that ;)
[10:42] <daveake> I'm blind
[10:42] <AndyEsser> I got excited that it was a longer video :(
[10:44] <cm13g09> AndyEsser: Briefly going back to my earlier comments... I do get given some insane projects from time to time....
[10:47] <AndyEsser> o?
[10:47] <AndyEsser> o the 485->Fibre?
[10:53] <gonzo_> have done analogue to fibre
[10:53] <gonzo_> part of a remote scope probe system for use in high voltage test systems
[10:54] <AndyEsser> aww yea :)
[10:54] <AndyEsser> http://pastebin.com/14fTk3Tb
[10:54] <chris_99> did that transmit the signal as analog through the fibre gonzo_?
[10:54] <gonzo_> the non-linearity of the diode/transistor was fun
[10:55] <gonzo_> was effectivly an op-amp with feedback, but over two fibres
[10:55] <gonzo_> yep, pure analoigue
[10:55] <chris_99> gotcha
[10:56] <gonzo_> high V so we had to clean the optic cables off because the residues on the sheath were slightly condictive. As would be sweat from hands
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[10:57] <chris_99> wow
[11:07] <eroomde> mattbrejza / craag are you familiar with sam harrison? http://www.nebulasciences.com/team/
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[11:10] <craag> Yes met him the other week, he came along to susf
[11:11] <craag> and now coming to iow I believe
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[11:14] <eroomde> ukhasnet?
[11:14] <craag> yeah
[11:15] <eroomde> cool
[11:15] <eroomde> i might meet him then
[11:15] <AndyEsser> *sigh* Didn't think getting winavr to work with Visual Studio was going to be that easy :(
[11:16] <eroomde> windows.
[11:16] <eroomde> drop it like it's hot
[11:16] <jonsowman> +1
[11:17] <AndyEsser> eroomde: I spend most of my time in Ubuntu
[11:17] <AndyEsser> but there isn't an IDE that even comes remotely close to Visual Studio
[11:17] <jonsowman> but there is vim
[11:17] <eroomde> no but there is vim
[11:17] <eroomde> and that's all you need
[11:17] <AndyEsser> vim is f*cking horrid
[11:17] <eroomde> no it isn't
[11:17] <jonsowman> /kick AndyEsser
[11:17] <eroomde> it's the answer
[11:18] <AndyEsser> yes, yes it really is
[11:18] <jonsowman> :)
[11:18] <eroomde> take it from us
[11:18] <AndyEsser> it is not designed for people to use
[11:18] <AndyEsser> nano ftw
[11:18] <AndyEsser> :)
[11:18] <jonsowman> sigh
[11:18] <eroomde> what?
[11:18] <eroomde> confused
[11:18] <eroomde> no.
[11:18] <AndyEsser> eroomde: regretting me getting back in contact? :P
[11:18] <eroomde> vim is about the most powerful tool ever created for writing and edited text, especially structured text like code. you can't beat it
[11:19] <eroomde> IDEs are just a way of not learning what a makefile is or how to use git from the command line
[11:19] <eroomde> they're not a help
[11:19] <AndyEsser> eroomde: integrated source control is horrid
[11:19] <AndyEsser> I use git all from the command line
[11:19] <AndyEsser> and when compiling my code on linux it's all command line
[11:19] <cm13g09> AndyEsser: if I told you what this RS485 network is going into.... you'd wonder what the hell I'm doing....
[11:20] <cm13g09> also.... I'm a vim user....
[11:21] <AndyEsser> I have no issue with vim users, I just don't find it useful myself :P
[11:21] <AndyEsser> use the tool that you're most comfortable with :)
[11:22] <eroomde> become comfortable with vim
[11:22] <AndyEsser> there we go - VS2013 compiling code to blink an LED every 500ms compiled :)
[11:22] <eroomde> you'll be better once you are
[11:22] <AndyEsser> eroomde: why? nothing it does I can't accomplish with sublime
[11:22] <AndyEsser> now to find a controller that I can test this on :)
[11:22] Action: AndyEsser looks longingly at eroomde
[11:23] <eroomde> but vi is more powerful and will be installed on your remote router you have to ssh into at some remote site in bulgaria
[11:23] <eroomde> it's like a universal language
[11:23] <AndyEsser> and for all debian based servers that I have to manage, have nano on ;)
[11:24] <AndyEsser> and if it's not a debian based system, I don't want to talk to it ;)
[11:24] <eroomde> depressing.
[11:25] <jonsowman> lol
[11:25] <AndyEsser> :)
[11:26] <cm13g09> eroomde: I wish Cisco allowed you to vim startup-config!
[11:26] <cm13g09> it would, in some cases, be a shedload easier to do that (especially if it's got yank and paste-buffer support)
[11:27] <eroomde> this quantum information theorist author of a paper i was interested in is called Toby Cubitt
[11:27] <eroomde> which is lovely
[11:27] <jonsowman> :D
[11:27] <AndyEsser> eroomde: not Tony Loveday?
[11:28] <jonsowman> aptronym
[11:31] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-11 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-11
[11:31] <kokey> cm13g09: I think you can use vi on juniper kit
[11:35] <AndyEsser> kokey: I guess I'll discover in a week or so when our Juniper SRX arrives :)
[11:39] <kokey> AndyEsser: nice
[11:39] <AndyEsser> yea, we're getting a leased line fibre installed, and the Juniper is the provided router
[11:39] <AndyEsser> fun times :)
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[11:43] <mfa298> cm13g09: just chuck that Cisco gear and get some nice purple (Extreme Networks) kit. That uses vi for editing some files (although I don't think you can edit the config that way)
[11:45] <kokey> I just rolled out a change to alias nano='vim' across all the servers at my one company
[11:51] <cm13g09> kokey: you evil person!
[11:51] <cm13g09> mfa298: nice :)
[11:52] <kokey> cm13g09: strange this is the developers had a habit of using vim but the one sysadmin still has a nano habit
[11:52] <AndyEsser> kokey: evil
[11:52] <cm13g09> lol
[11:52] <AndyEsser> mfa298: Cisco > everything else ;)
[11:53] <kokey> cisco is good for a lot of things
[11:53] <AndyEsser> kokey: I'll get into the habit of just doing /usr/bin/nano instead ;)
[11:53] <kokey> unless you want a fast, non-blocking, switch
[11:53] <kokey> then cisco is amongst the worst
[11:53] <AndyEsser> ok, I'll clarify -cisco are good for routing :P
[11:53] <AndyEsser> switches I typically use HP - not amazing, but good Price:Performance
[11:54] <kokey> yeah it's good for routing, until you get to tier-1 or tier-2 ISP level
[11:54] <AndyEsser> kokey: which most people don't ;)
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[11:54] <AndyEsser> trying to remember what we had at my last job..
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[11:54] <kokey> yeah we got a bunch of old hp procurves downstairs, they've turned out to work quite well over many years
[11:54] <AndyEsser> defintely had some Junipers in our datacenters, but not sure if those were used directly to peer onto our tier-1 ISP
[11:55] <kokey> cisco is a bit like toyota, they're not cheap, they're reliable, they have models with all the features most people want
[11:56] <kokey> then you get all sorts of cheap switch vendors which are more like buying tata
[11:56] <kokey> and then you get switch vendors which are more like buying a sports car
[11:56] <cm13g09> kokey: I work for an ISP, we use almost exclusively Cisco
[11:56] <kokey> a toyota won't ever be as fast, but the sports car will have less features and sometimes break more spectacularly
[11:56] <AndyEsser> cm13g09: which ISP?
[11:57] <cm13g09> AndyEsser: Vostron
[11:57] <cm13g09> Business ISP
[11:57] <AndyEsser> Ah, never heard of them
[11:57] <AndyEsser> gotcha
[11:57] <cm13g09> it's great fun
[11:58] <AndyEsser> gah... this is so annoying, I'm pretty sure my programmer and uC's will arrive today, but can't play with them yet :(
[11:59] <kokey> cm13g09: I tend to work for big online sites etc. so often has their own peering and the switches connecting the big pipes have usually been juniper or foundry(now brocade)
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[11:59] <AndyEsser> a ha!
[11:59] <AndyEsser> that's what it was
[11:59] <AndyEsser> brocade's!
[11:59] <AndyEsser> thanks :P
[12:00] <kokey> yeah brocade traditionally did fibre channel stuff
[12:00] <AndyEsser> we had multiple 10GBit ISP connections at our datacenters... sooo cool :)
[12:00] <kokey> but they bought foundry, which does switches popular with telcos and ISPs
[12:01] <kokey> big chunks of the london peering exchange is on foundry kit
[12:01] <kokey> I know big chunks of the NTT data centres are foundry kit
[12:02] <kokey> one of the main motivations was that it was drawing significantly less power than the cisco switches
[12:02] <kokey> however, foundry stuff does have fewer features or more weird limitations
[12:02] <eroomde> but it doesn't compare to our little intel atom board running openbsd and pf
[12:02] <eroomde> you can put full tens of bits per second through that thing
[12:02] <AndyEsser> haha
[12:02] <kokey> eroomde: but you probably can have more features than from a brocade or arista switch
[12:03] <eroomde> which is faster than our net connection anyway
[12:03] <eroomde> yeah it's great actually
[12:03] <eroomde> very solid
[12:03] <eroomde> and probably as secure as anything
[12:03] <kokey> like with a foundry switch you can't send sflow (same as netflow and jflow) data to more than one collector, and you can't have port mirroring enabled at the same time as sflow
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[12:04] <kokey> stuff like that, which isn't a problem on a cisco
[12:04] <michal_f> !flights
[12:04] <SpacenearUS> 03michal_f: There are no flights currently :(
[12:04] <kokey> it's like with a koenigsegg you might not have parking sensors and an aircon
[12:15] <mfa298> the brocade 10G ethernet stuff looks to be surprisingly good and much cheaper than I was expecting. We've got a bunch of the VDX range
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[12:16] <mfa298> eroomde probably best you stick with openBSD on the little atom board, it doesn't really scale that well.
[12:17] <mfa298> we had to move from OpenBSD to Ubuntu to actually get some performance out of our kit.
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[13:08] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DF2ET_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DF2ET_chase
[13:17] <AndyEsser> If I've set a ports direction to be input, I guess I can just read the PORTs variable to get the state of the pin?
[13:23] <adamgreig> you can always read from PORT to get the state of the pin
[13:23] <adamgreig> if it's an output the state will be whatever it's set to
[13:23] <AndyEsser> Ah cool - so can confirm I've set it high, or whatever, etc
[13:23] <AndyEsser> ta muchly
[13:23] <adamgreig> you can also 'write' a pin high while it's an input, to enable a pullup resistor
[13:24] <AndyEsser> Ah ok, so that's how you enable the internal pullups
[13:24] <AndyEsser> although I suspect I'll always use external pullups for inputs
[13:24] <adamgreig> you never know
[13:24] <adamgreig> internal ones are convenient
[13:24] <adamgreig> often good enough
[13:24] <AndyEsser> thanks for the info though :) That'll help with my playing around this weekend
[13:24] <adamgreig> sometimes it's incredibly important that the pullup is active while the microcontroller is still powering up, and sometimes the pullup has to be a precise value etc, so it's not always ok
[13:26] <AndyEsser> well it's good to know how to do it either way at least
[13:26] <AndyEsser> more knowledge is always a good thing :)
[13:26] <AndyEsser> thanks
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[13:39] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DK6GB_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DK6GB_chase
[13:43] <fsphil> AndyEsser: if you want to read what is being input to the in, you need to use the PINx register
[13:43] <fsphil> pin*
[13:43] <fsphil> PORTx is always the output/pullup state
[13:44] <adamgreig> oh duh, yes, sorry
[13:49] <jonsowman> that gets me every single time
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[13:56] <fab4space> hello all, just tested the F9FT 144Yagi 9 elements compared to the Diamond omni MVH285 on the car for RTTY 100bauds, 144.650Mhz, 50mW
[13:57] <fab4space> wow what a difference if aiming at the direction of the tracker even if miles away :)
[13:57] <fab4space> now I need to find a good 434Mhz aerial for my chasing car for decoding LoRa SSDV packets at 434Mhz from the PITS tracker
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[14:00] <gonzo_> even a 1/4 wave is useable as a chase car antenna
[14:01] <fsphil> I usually suggest http://cpc.farnell.com/1/1/21033-watson-wsm-270-mini-mag-antenna.html
[14:01] <gonzo_> yes a yagi of that size will be a huge gain over an omni
[14:02] <gonzo_> fab4space, are you launching from the UK
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[14:03] <fab4space> no gonzo_ i am launching from south of france
[14:03] <fab4space> and I intend to use this antenna for final recovery when payload will have landed/crashed :)
[14:03] <fab4space> not for the chasing when it will be airborne
[14:05] <gonzo_> ok, no prob. Was going to point out that you can't fly 144MHz in the UK.
[14:05] <fab4space> yes I know :) in france we can use 144.650Mhz if we have HAM license and asked DGAC
[14:05] <gonzo_> you mat be better getting a yagi for 70cm and DF at that freq
[14:06] <fsphil> is lora allowed, even though it's a proprietary system?
[14:06] <gonzo_> you won't get any great difference in received signal level for anteannas of the same physical size, whatever band you use
[14:06] <fab4space> I think that lora is not allowed on amateur bands since it is proprietary
[14:07] <fab4space> I plan to use RTTY, CONTESTIA on 144.650Mhz
[14:07] <adamgreig> so is DSTAR and yaesu's thing though
[14:07] <craag> hmm
[14:07] <adamgreig> and they're presumably allowed?
[14:07] <craag> yeah, it's legal as long as you tell people how to decode it
[14:07] <fab4space> and LoRa on 434 and Lora/CW on 868Mhz
[14:07] <michal_f> I used http://www.diamondantenna.net/mr73sj.html for a chase car. I think it's the cheapest diamond. worked really well
[14:08] <craag> even if decoding it is 'buy this black box ic'
[14:08] <adamgreig> in principle lora is publically known how to decode, right?
[14:08] <adamgreig> huh
[14:08] <adamgreig> well then :P
[14:08] <craag> which is what ambe is lol
[14:08] <gonzo_> dstar used to be banned in .fr because of the closed source codec
[14:08] <craag> lora just does it at the rf level instead
[14:08] <craag> gonzo_: no that was because of the internet links afaik
[14:09] <craag> they expressly forbid connecting amateur radio operations over the internet or something
[14:09] <gonzo_> has been a while since I played with dstar
[14:09] <fab4space> so craag you think that it may be allowed to use LoRa on HAM band if I provide links to hardware/software to decode it?
[14:09] <craag> fab4space: in my opinion, yes
[14:09] <craag> but i am not a lawyer etc
[14:10] <craag> of course I'd rather you didn't ;)
[14:10] <craag> from an open source is good point of view n stuff :)
[14:11] <fab4space> there is this reverse engineered source for decoder:
[14:11] <fab4space> https://github.com/hexameron/rtl-sdrangelove/tree/master/plugins/channel/lora
[14:11] <fab4space> but so far I never achevied to make it work
[14:12] <chris_99> not work in what way?
[14:12] <chris_99> you got the plugin loaded though?
[14:12] <fab4space> I can compile, run it, I have the plugin loaded
[14:12] <chris_99> ah
[14:12] <fab4space> but never succeeded to decode a lora packet that I was sending
[14:12] <chris_99> ah darn
[14:13] <chris_99> some folks in #gnuradio gave me a link to a way to decode the CSS data, with gnuradio, not sure how much more work you'd need to do though to actually understand a packet
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[14:14] <fab4space> there is some magic here at this line :
[14:14] <fab4space> https://github.com/hexameron/rtl-sdrangelove/blob/master/plugins/channel/lora/lorabits.h#L67
[14:14] <fab4space> if you don't have it you can't decode :)
[14:15] <fab4space> (data whitening (6 bit))
[14:16] <chris_99> mm yeah i saw that
[14:16] <jonsowman> interesting
[14:17] <chris_99> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/discuss-gnuradio/2015-10/msg00291.html
[14:17] <fab4space> I'm sure that with a sdr dongle and a PC when can decode lora packets
[14:17] <chris_99> that was the link
[14:17] <russss> that is quite some magic
[14:17] <adamgreig> eh
[14:17] <jonsowman> so magic
[14:17] <adamgreig> it's just the output of an lfsr
[14:17] <adamgreig> encoded in a string instead
[14:17] <adamgreig> could probably work out which lfsr fairly easily
[14:18] <jonsowman> go
[14:18] <jonsowman> :D
[14:18] <adamgreig> haha ugh ok
[14:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03LCARS_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=LCARS_chase
[14:21] <adamgreig> hmm I take it back, not an LFSR, 168 entries in that string can't be a 6 bit LFSR
[14:23] <adamgreig> pfft http://www.semtech.com/images/datasheet/AN1200.18_STD.pdf
[14:24] <fab4space> "We are now going to implement the whitening and CRC
[14:24] <fab4space> calculation in software. On the most recent
[14:24] <fab4space> SX12xx devices, these processes are already
[14:24] <fab4space> implemented in the devices hardware"
[14:25] <adamgreig> yea, but that gives you all the algorithms you need to DIY
[14:25] <fab4space> this means that sx1276 implement this whitening in hardware
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[14:25] <fab4space> but it does not give the key
[14:25] <adamgreig> yea it does
[14:25] <adamgreig> there's no key
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[14:26] <fab4space> ah
[14:26] <adamgreig> it's just a standard whitening with an lfsr, though that github one has pre-generated the sequence instead
[14:26] <fab4space> ok
[14:26] <fab4space> it seems that on the github one , it is hardcoded for the explicit and implicit modes
[14:28] <tweetBot> @daveake: Expecting to launch PIBUG at 3pm. #UKHAS
[14:30] <chris_99> will that have RTTY on?
[14:31] <AndyEsser> daveake: Have told a mate who lives in Norwich to go and find it ;)
[14:31] <daveake> LoRa only. Lightest Pi payload I can make
[14:32] <daveake> If someone goes out they can have it :)
[14:32] <AndyEsser> he'd be tracking it blind though, so unlikely :P
[14:33] <daveake> Also, batteries will die pretty quicly
[14:33] <chris_99> what freq will it be on daveake, might see if i can see it on the waterfall at least, been trying to find some radiosondes yesterday to no avail
[14:33] <daveake> It'd be difficult
[14:33] <daveake> 434.450
[14:33] <chris_99> cheers
[14:34] <adamgreig> how heavy is it?
[14:35] <daveake> 70g all in
[14:35] <AndyEsser> very tiny :)
[14:35] <daveake> A lighter camera would help
[14:35] <daveake> Nah this is huge compared to actually small trackers
[14:35] <fab4space> adamgreig, is it ccit or ibm whitening that they use in sx1276?
[14:35] <adamgreig> it can do either
[14:35] <fab4space> how can the decoder know which one was used?
[14:35] <adamgreig> it needs to be told
[14:36] <adamgreig> 70g for pi+camera+battery is pretty sweet
[14:36] <daveake> 9g of that is a webcam
[14:36] <daveake> Started at 110g :/
[14:36] <adamgreig> the webcam? haha nice
[14:36] <daveake> Then I had to put Sugru round the base of the lens ...
[14:36] <daveake> ... they relied on the case to keep light from the sensor :/
[14:37] <daveake> i.e. light got in throu the pcb
[14:38] <daveake> My request to add a Pi cam socket to Pi Zero V1.4 has been logged :)
[14:38] <AndyEsser> heh
[14:39] <craag> I saw eben said he was on his way to talk to the engineer about a camera socket last week
[14:39] <daveake> I think you may have seen that elsewhere :p
[14:40] <daveake> brb need to go get wet
[14:40] <craag> websdr lora rx up and running :)
[14:40] <SpeedEvil> Camera socket isn't even really needed, just pads.
[14:41] <fab4space> adamgreig, I can see the CrcWhiteningType for FSK 0 à CCITT CRC implementation with standard whitening 1 à IBM CRC implementation with alternate whitening
[14:41] <fab4space> but not for lora
[14:41] <adamgreig> hmm
[14:42] <adamgreig> maybe those are the whitening modes when it's not using lora modulation
[14:42] <fab4space> yes it looks like they use the 9 bit lsfr for FSK
[14:43] <fab4space> lfsr
[14:45] <tweetBot> @AmsatUK: Expected flight path https://t.co/XK0PhCaCUQ
[14:45] <tweetBot> PIBUG Tacking https://t.co/XX7P1IUSZV
[14:45] <tweetBot> 434.450 #amsat #hamradio #hamr
[14:45] <tweetBot> https://t.co/Wd5FiUnJlD
[14:46] <craag> It'll be 'tacking' once it lands in the north sea
[14:46] <craag> ho ho ho
[14:47] <gonzo_> wonder if it will drift back in whilst we track it?!
[14:48] <craag> flight prediction actually don't show north sea landing
[14:48] <craag> and tracking stuff on the sea is hard
[14:50] <SpeedEvil> yarr
[14:52] <gonzo_> the german lads had a sonde that had been set loose in lake constanz and sent up a balloon with digipeat
[14:52] <SpeedEvil> yeah - that'd work
[14:52] <SpeedEvil> Or better, a global network of a few hundred microballoons.
[14:52] <gonzo_> managed to get a water to balloon link. Ok, using aprs
[14:53] <gonzo_> they had been getting direct packets from the sonde, prob should be called a bouy?? Or is that only for teathered things??
[14:53] <gonzo_> the hab digi was just for the fun of it
[14:57] <fsphil> a bouy can drift too
[14:57] <fsphil> buoy even
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[14:57] <gonzo_> bouy oh buoy
[14:58] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PIBUG after 0321 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PIBUG
[14:58] <SpeedEvil> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_Floatees - related
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[15:00] <chris_99> it'd be cool if there was some way to put a sat tracker in those ducks, not that you could power it long enough to be useful :(
[15:01] <SpeedEvil> sure you can.
[15:01] <SpeedEvil> D lithium cell, 5 min power/6 mo
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[15:03] <chris_99> that'd be really cool to see the pattern a herd of them makes
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[15:09] <AndyEsser> Some amazing altitude on PIBUG :)
[15:10] <chris_99> just looking at the predicted path, will it really go that far?
[15:11] <fab4space> daveake, what is the balloon size?
[15:12] <fsphil> "put a sat tracker in those ducks" -- we've gone too far
[15:12] <chris_99> heh
[15:12] <chris_99> why not fsphil it'd be awesome :P
[15:12] <fsphil> not as good as having a packet repeater on an eagle
[15:12] <chris_99> heh
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[15:13] <Flutterbat> fsphil: is that a thing? :x
[15:13] <fsphil> it's been discussed Flutterbat :)
[15:13] <Flutterbat> that example sounds to ridiculous to be made up
[15:13] <Flutterbat> i see :D
[15:13] <Flutterbat> but an albatross might be better
[15:13] <Flutterbat> because
[15:13] <Flutterbat> more uptime xxD
[15:14] <AndyEsser> o god
[15:14] <AndyEsser> *facedesk*
[15:15] <Flutterbat> AndyEsser: you dont happen to be german?
[15:15] <AndyEsser> Flutterbat: German descent,
[15:15] <AndyEsser> my paternal grandfather was German
[15:16] <Flutterbat> AndyEsser: had a neighbor whose name was Andreas Esser :D
[15:16] <AndyEsser> ha
[15:16] <AndyEsser> It's a good strong German name :)
[15:16] <Flutterbat> yeah the names alright
[15:16] <Flutterbat> pretty common actually
[15:16] <AndyEsser> Yea, not so common here in the UK
[15:17] <AndyEsser> but yes, fairly common in Germany
[15:17] <Flutterbat> do you have many Franks in the UK?
[15:17] <daveake> up
[15:17] <AndyEsser> Flutterbat: as a surname? or firstname?
[15:18] <Flutterbat> first name :o
[15:18] <daveake> Picos are a pain with getting the lift
[15:18] <AndyEsser> It's reasonably common I believe
[15:18] <AndyEsser> daveake: tracking :)
[15:18] <daveake> Also trying to tie a balloon o0n your own is tricky
[15:18] <Flutterbat> ah well theres anne frank. its pretty uncommon as a surename in germany, compared to first name
[15:19] <AndyEsser> daveake: what's the 7km green circle around it on habhub?
[15:20] <SA6BSS-Mike> 5 degres over horizon
[15:21] <fab4space> daveake, what is the balloon you used?
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[15:22] <fab4space> http://ssdv.habhub.org/PIBUG
[15:23] <daveake> 100g
[15:23] <fab4space> ok thanks daveake !
[15:23] <fab4space> first pizero hab daveake :)
[15:24] <fab4space> what lora settings are you using for ssdv?
[15:25] <craag> fab4space: it's 21KHz, sf6, 4/5 fec
[15:25] <fab4space> ok thanks craag !
[15:25] <craag> 1x crc fail so far from farnham
[15:26] <AndyEsser> craag: you're picking it up from farnham?
[15:26] <craag> Yep
[15:26] <AndyEsser> that's so cool :)
[15:26] <craag> not decoded one yet though
[15:26] <AndyEsser> daveake: what's the transmitter? one of the NTX2b's?
[15:27] <fab4space> Lora equivalent bitrate is 1560bps :)
[15:27] <daveake> rfm98
[15:27] <AndyEsser> cheers :)
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[15:30] <fab4space> daveake are you using the lcars chasing system you have made for this chase?
[15:30] <daveake> not chasing
[15:30] <fab4space> ok
[15:30] <fsphil> my kind of chase
[15:30] <AndyEsser> lol
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[15:31] <AndyEsser> really quite impressed with how accurate the projected flight path is :)
[15:31] <fsphil> and how blue it is up there
[15:32] <daveake> lol
[15:32] <fsphil> overcast there daveake?
[15:32] <daveake> yep
[15:32] <daveake> Was hoping for a clearing, but didn't happen
[15:32] <habby> daveake, can I pick this up on radio or is it LORA only?
[15:32] <daveake> You can't decode w/o a lora module
[15:32] <daveake> You can hear it if you want
[15:32] <AndyEsser> fsphil: how blue it is? is the camera being streamed?
[15:33] <daveake> btw this is the cheapest crappest webcam in existence
[15:33] <chris_99> i can't see anything yet , i'm gonna try and record the raw data
[15:33] <daveake> but it also runs from < 3V
[15:33] <fab4space> or if you have time you can try to finish https://github.com/hexameron/rtl-sdrangelove/tree/master/plugins/channel/lora so that it can handle the lora modulation params used by PITS :)
[15:33] <habby> Oh, OK... *runs back away from Physics lab to computing room class full of Y7 kids.....*
[15:33] <daveake> So the battery is just 3 AAAs straight into the 5V pin
[15:33] <fsphil> AndyEsser: http://ssdv.habhub.org/PIBUG
[15:34] <AndyEsser> o cool :)
[15:34] <AndyEsser> thanks
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[15:35] <AndyEsser> daveake: you have a nice oven :)
[15:35] <fsphil> lol
[15:35] <daveake> hah
[15:35] <fsphil> ssdv.habhub.org/images/2015-12-09--16-15-40-PIBUG-3C66.jpeg
[15:35] <fsphil> far too well organised
[15:35] <fsphil> labels on boxes, sheesh
[15:36] <daveake> So, you think the labels match the contents?
[15:36] <fsphil> that LAN box better not have network cables in it!
[15:36] <AndyEsser> who does that!
[15:36] <AndyEsser> haha
[15:36] Action: daveake checks ...
[15:37] <daveake> switches and adapters
[15:37] <craag> woop image packet
[15:37] <daveake> woo :)
[15:37] <daveake> I need a proper aerial
[15:39] <gonzo_> I have proper antennas, but none of them connected to anything at the mo
[15:39] <AndyEsser> I have neither antennae or anything to plug them into
[15:39] <gonzo_> it was hurtful to have to go along the wiring cab with the garden shears
[15:40] <AndyEsser> looks like my uC's and parts aren't arriving today :(
[15:42] <daveake> Seems to be going sideways quickly and up hardly at all
[15:43] <daveake> hmmm
[15:44] <fab4space> daveake , I hope they will upgrade the pizero one day with the camera CSI port :)
[15:44] <daveake> yeah I hope so too
[15:45] <AndyEsser> Apparently parts should be with me by EOP today, but the programmer isn't in stock :(
[15:45] <AndyEsser> What were peoples recommended programmers again, for the AVR 328p?
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[15:46] <fsphil> https://www.olimex.com/Products/AVR/Programmers/AVR-ISP500/
[15:47] <fsphil> though I found that hard to get last time. I think all the UK stock is twice the price
[15:47] <AndyEsser> very expensive in comparison to others I've seen
[15:47] <AndyEsser> :(
[15:48] <UpuWork> https://www.olimex.com/Products/AVR/Programmers/AVR-ISP500/
[15:48] <UpuWork> seocnded
[15:49] <Vaizki> usb asp is cheap.. and clones are almost free but support the real thing.
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[15:49] <Vaizki> also you can use an arduino as a programmer in a pinch
[15:49] <AndyEsser> Hmm, no way to get that before the weekend either :(
[15:49] <fsphil> shipping from olimex direct is ¬13.41
[15:49] <craag> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Programmer-USB-AVRISP-XPII-Compatible/dp/B00KM6ZA9I/
[15:49] <AndyEsser> fsphil: yea, for 1-3 weeks
[15:50] <AndyEsser> craag: that I can get for tomorrow :)
[15:50] <craag> err
[15:50] <craag> that's a clone though, not the official atmel one (ive got the atmel)
[15:50] <Vaizki> AndyEsser: you don't have a single arduino?
[15:50] <AndyEsser> nope
[15:50] <fsphil> I got an avr dragon, though it seems to misbehave sometimes
[15:51] <fsphil> got a leak daveake?
[15:52] <daveake> Well I am getting old
[15:52] <daveake> Oh you mean the balloon. Dunno. May have got damaged when it hit the winds
[15:52] <daveake> Ascent rate was good up to that point
[15:53] <Vaizki> AndyEsser: well here's a link anyway how to hook it up if you ever get one ;) https://voidyourwarranty.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/standalone-328-with-arduinoisp-v1-clipped.png
[15:53] <AndyEsser> craag: I've ordered that one for tomorrow, hopefully it'll be ok until my proper one arrives
[15:53] <daveake> Descent rate isn't increasing
[15:53] <fsphil> it seems to have gained weight
[15:53] <Vaizki> rain?
[15:53] <AndyEsser> fsphil: don't we all?
[15:53] <fsphil> rain perhaps
[15:53] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: cheers
[15:53] <daveake> could be
[15:53] <daveake> I filled for 4m/s and thought that would be enough
[15:53] <fsphil> I don't gain weight
[15:54] <fsphil> I've just become less light
[15:54] <fsphil> hmm, 4m/s should've been fine
[15:55] <AndyEsser> It's about to fly over my old house
[15:55] <fsphil> actually it could be snow
[15:58] <daveake> Ah well, if anyone wants a pi zero and can't wait ....
[15:58] <Vaizki> it's going to land in Daventry at this rate?
[15:58] <AndyEsser> heh
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[15:58] <daveake> might need to chip the ice off it first
[15:58] <Vaizki> embark on king's quest to find it!
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[15:58] <Vaizki> (sierra game nerd revealed)
[15:59] <AndyEsser> :P
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[15:59] <Vaizki> sorry.. /coat
[15:59] <AndyEsser> daveake: presume that temp reading isn't accurate?
[15:59] <fsphil> if it is snow, it might re-launch itself
[16:00] <daveake> yeah
[16:00] Action: daveake ponders putting cylinder and spare balloon in car ...
[16:00] Action: daveake decides it's drier and warmer at home :)
[16:01] <eroomde> disposable habs are a good winter hobby
[16:01] <AndyEsser> it'll be dry and warm in the car ;)
[16:01] <eroomde> let them go and then scurry inside for a whiskey
[16:01] <eroomde> by the fire
[16:01] <eroomde> and the radio
[16:01] <AndyEsser> I've run out of wood for my fire :(
[16:01] <daveake> careless
[16:01] <Laurenceb> eroomde: I came up with a new use for your precooler
[16:01] <Laurenceb> airship buoyancy control
[16:02] <eroomde> build tool is rebuilding gcc next, i can see
[16:02] <eroomde> this is going to exercise my laptop fan
[16:02] <AndyEsser> lol
[16:02] <eroomde> Laurenceb: thanks
[16:02] <Laurenceb> using ammonia or water to heat or cool H2 or He
[16:02] <eroomde> might be quite expensive for an airship
[16:02] <eroomde> and also it sort of only goes one way
[16:02] <Laurenceb> seems to be what the doctor ordered as far as lightweight goes
[16:04] <AndyEsser> daveake: 'landed' or just nothing to pick up the signal?
[16:04] <Laurenceb> I was thinking maybe an inflatable insulated ballonet at ~100C to 200C higher or lower temperature inside the envelope
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[16:05] <Laurenceb> using pressurised water at 300C, or ammonia at -85C it gives a few times its own mass in buoyancy shift
[16:05] <eroomde> why not just have a ballonet you inflae/deflate with outside air?
[16:05] <Laurenceb> probably way better than any gas compression
[16:06] <Laurenceb> H2 and He make for lighter heat exchangers, no frosting, and a significantly larger lift shift per joule of thermal energy
[16:07] <Laurenceb> He is best overall as its monatomic
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[16:14] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: PV is an annoying amount of energy
[16:14] <eroomde> context
[16:15] <SpeedEvil> pressure * volume
[16:15] <SpeedEvil> rather than balonet
[16:15] <SpeedEvil> t
[16:15] <Laurenceb> yeah thats the problem I was trying to solve
[16:15] Action: Laurenceb tried modelling a 1Mtonne airship after reading some silly proposals
[16:16] <Laurenceb> turns out its probably possible and cost effective to build one
[16:16] <Laurenceb> but the buoyancy control is a pain
[16:17] <Laurenceb> something that big would have to use H2 and an N2 blanket
[16:17] <SpeedEvil> stay over water?
[16:17] <SpeedEvil> suck it up?
[16:17] <Laurenceb> but venting H2 kills the cost savings
[16:17] <Laurenceb> kills the advantage over ships of being able to fly over land
[16:18] <Laurenceb> this would be a container ship replacement
[16:18] <SpeedEvil> Lift surfaces?
[16:18] <SpeedEvil> instead
[16:18] <Laurenceb> steel skinned and powered by a marine diesel - built like a boat
[16:18] <Laurenceb> they use too much energy even at high L/D
[16:18] <SpeedEvil> Ah
[16:19] <Laurenceb> so even a huge H2 airship needs buoyancy control to bring the cost down
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[16:20] <SpeedEvil> I guess square cube means bladders have a lot less heat transfer
[16:20] <Laurenceb> yes
[16:20] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[16:21] <Laurenceb> its a few megawatts at +300C elevation with 20cm fibreglass operating under a nitrogen blanket
[16:21] <Laurenceb> much less than the exhaust heat flux
[16:22] <SpeedEvil> I suppose you've thought of isentropic bladders
[16:22] <Laurenceb> not fully
[16:22] <Laurenceb> something that has been proposed is a saturated H2 / H2O mix
[16:23] <Laurenceb> might do some interesting things
[16:23] <Laurenceb> one "easy" way to do it is a 100MW class marine diesel running off ~55% natural gas and 45% bunker fuel
[16:23] <SpeedEvil> What does delta-PV required for compensation look like compared to thrust power?
[16:24] <Laurenceb> about 2 to 3 orders of magnitude higher
[16:24] <Laurenceb> peak
[16:24] <Laurenceb> so up to 50GW ideally
[16:24] <SpeedEvil> Ow
[16:24] <Laurenceb> yes
[16:25] <Laurenceb> one idea I looked at was hot air ballonet with natural gas powered burners and exhaust inlet
[16:25] <Laurenceb> the natural gas is just for the high frequency corrections
[16:26] <Laurenceb> that takes the burner mean power down to maybe 30% of engine power
[16:26] <Laurenceb> and burning methane + bunker fuel gives no mass change over the flight
[16:27] <Laurenceb> and lowers the costs
[16:28] <Laurenceb> I was tempted to head here http://www.airship-association.org/cms/node/75
[16:28] <Laurenceb> but it's only every 2 years :-/
[16:32] <Laurenceb> also, covering a giant airship with amorphous solar cells gives enough power to run at ~120mph in direct sunlight
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> :-)
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> What altitude? Several km?
[16:34] <Laurenceb> no, 1.5km or so
[16:34] <Laurenceb> annoyingly airships dont scale up too well due to structural mass increasing
[16:35] <Laurenceb> about 700,000T is probably a sane upper size using cheap fibreglass structure, so you'd want to stay low
[16:36] <SpeedEvil> Bamboo!
[16:36] <SpeedEvil> Genetically engineering it to be 500m round may be tricky.
[16:36] <Laurenceb> ironically a solar powered airship with hot air buoyancy control might end up leading to more energy use due to there being no ~100MW thermal at ~400C diesel exhaust
[16:37] <Laurenceb> yeah actually paper mache turns out looking quite effective
[16:37] <cm13g09> Laurenceb: WHAT!?
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[16:38] <Laurenceb> <cm13g09> you need to consider stiffness and cost
[16:39] <Laurenceb> annoying the modulus of recycled paper is much lower than high quality new products
[16:46] <Laurenceb> http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1516-14392014000400012&script=sci_arttext
[16:46] <SpeedEvil> Superpressure 20km airship, with all cargo airlifted?
[16:47] <SpeedEvil> 20km alt
[16:48] <Laurenceb> UTS is fairly poor, but Specific stiffness is crazy high
[16:48] <UpuWork> q
[16:48] <Laurenceb> Specific stiffness / cost is even more bonkers
[16:50] <Laurenceb> well specific stiffness is same as kevlar
[16:50] <AndyEsser> woo! uC's and xtals have arrived!
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[16:51] <Laurenceb> Specific stiffness / cost for paper laminates seems to annihilate anything else I can think of
[16:51] <Laurenceb> like > an order of magnitude higher
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> Pycrete stratospheric ice ship.
[16:53] <Laurenceb> hahaha
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[17:01] <SpeedEvil> This is an insane idea. Lots less so than hyperloop though
[17:01] <Laurenceb> the more I think about it the more I think Hyperloop is very very clever
[17:02] <Laurenceb> not as a means of transport but as a bit of "psyops"
[17:03] <AndyEsser> What's wrong with Hyperloop?
[17:04] <Lunar_Lander> hyperdrive is cooler
[17:04] <Lunar_Lander> (sorry :D)
[17:05] <Laurenceb> AndyEsser: everything
[17:07] <AndyEsser> lol fair enough
[17:07] <Laurenceb> perhaps the main issue is the main problem it proports to solve doesnt seem to be a problem
[17:08] <AndyEsser> high speed cross country transit?
[17:08] <Laurenceb> lol no
[17:08] <Laurenceb> the "speed limit" in an intermediate pressure tunnel
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[17:09] <Laurenceb> by running two tubes with interconnections every few hundred meters most of the issues Elon claims are major go away
[17:10] <Laurenceb> also you can run steel wheel on steel rail at much higher speeds than conventional high speed rail
[17:10] <Laurenceb> but it needs electronic stability control, no big issue
[17:10] <AndyEsser> Interesting - I'll be honest I don't know much about Hyperloop, or the problems it's proposing to to solve - just thought it was a neat idea :)
[17:10] <Laurenceb> and with two rails in a controlled intermediate pressure tube, you can run +10kV up one rail and -10kV on the other
[17:11] <Laurenceb> power problems solved
[17:11] <Vaizki> Even though elon is not perfektionisti the guy gets funky stuff funded and done
[17:11] <Laurenceb> so literally everything Elon proposed can either be solved really easily or isnt really a problem
[17:11] <Vaizki> Not perfect
[17:11] <Laurenceb> Elon is no idiot
[17:11] <AndyEsser> Perfektionisti is a beautiful word :)
[17:12] <Vaizki> It's Finnish
[17:12] <Laurenceb> which leads me to suggest Hypoerloop is nothing to do with transport
[17:12] <Vaizki> Autocorrect ftw
[17:12] <Laurenceb> its all about making Elon look cool
[17:12] <AndyEsser> I have to walk home - but thanks for the interesting info!
[17:12] <Laurenceb> and making people consider his lithium ion battery packs as a practical energy source in other applications
[17:13] <Vaizki> Well they are 18650 cells...
[17:13] <Laurenceb> so the people who are trying to build their crowd funded hyperloop got punked :D
[17:14] <Laurenceb> the thing that really made me wake up was his proposed tube construction: welded steel
[17:15] <Laurenceb> that doenst really make sense, off the shelf concrete sewer pipe is much cheaper and off the shelf stuff is already pretty much specced for vacuum operation
[17:15] <Laurenceb> then he sticks the steel tube on precast contcrete bases, and does a load of wind resonance simulations... like wtf
[17:15] <Laurenceb> cargo cult engineering
[17:25] <Vaizki> He should use riveted steel plates
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> Sewer pipe just isn't sexy.
[17:25] <Vaizki> IT worked for the Titanic
[17:26] <Vaizki> Ok irc on a phone is a bad idea
[17:27] <Laurenceb> well my Hyperloop inspired system looks like mine carts in a sewer
[17:28] <Laurenceb> so yeah not really as cool
[17:28] <staylo> it's a no from me
[17:29] <SpeedEvil> Tie into the Minecraft crowd,
[17:30] <SpeedEvil> Powering with redstone is hard. Yellow cake is easy.
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[18:05] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DL2YED_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL2YED_chase
[18:10] <chris_99> what happened to pibug out of interest, the last altitude on the tracker is ~4500m?
[18:11] <fsphil> 1386m
[18:12] <fsphil> it seems to have either developed a leak, or got loaded down with water/ice
[18:12] <daveake> yup. Ran out of listeners on the way down.
[18:12] <chris_99> ah :(
[18:12] <fsphil> I was hoping it would pop up again, but ah well
[18:12] <fsphil> if it had been snow, it could have all fallen of when it hit the ground
[18:12] <daveake> only 4 hours or so of battery
[18:12] <daveake> so it'll stop approx 7pm
[18:13] <daveake> Wasn't expecting to get it back, but a longer flight would have been good
[18:14] <chris_99> i had a look out for it on the waterfall earlier but couldn't see anything alas, i've been told CSS isn't easy to see visually on it?
[18:15] <fsphil> yeah, it's quite spread out
[18:16] <chris_99> someone suggested getting a lora module and plugging it directly into the rtlsdr, which i might do, just to have a playround in gnuradio
[18:16] <eroomde> heh
[18:16] <eroomde> hold your horses there
[18:16] <chris_99> why so?
[18:16] <eroomde> i suspect the power output of a lora module might upset an rtlsdr
[18:17] <chris_99> ah heh, maybe i could just put it close to the antenna instead
[18:17] <eroomde> yes, that one
[18:18] <eroomde> rtl will be expecting mV at most
[18:18] <chris_99> ah
[18:18] <eroomde> 10mW into 50 ohms is 1V peak-to-peak
[18:18] <eroomde> that's more than the esd protection diodes (if fitted) which will conduct at about 0.7V
[18:18] <chris_99> some of the lora modules seem to be 100mW too heh
[18:18] <eroomde> so it'd be effectively shorting the lora too
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[18:23] <Laurenceb> what the heck
[18:23] <Laurenceb> yeah thats a _really_ bad idea
[18:24] Action: AndyEsser nodes knowingly at the numbers being thrown around
[18:24] <AndyEsser> err.. nods*
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[18:27] <chris_99> actually if theres anyone who has an rtlsdr + lora module who doesn't mind dumping some raw data perhaps, give me a shout ;)
[18:28] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DK6GB_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DK6GB_chase
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[18:33] <Laurenceb> omg spacex is going to try touchdown on land
[18:33] <Laurenceb> should be fun
[18:33] <Laurenceb> and probably firey
[18:33] <mattbrejza> whens this?
[18:34] <chris_99> heh cool
[18:37] <Laurenceb> maybe on the 16th
[18:38] <mattbrejza> what sort of exclusion radius do they put around its landing location?
[18:38] <Lunar_Lander> what rocket?
[18:38] <Lunar_Lander> F9?
[18:38] <mattbrejza> probably
[18:38] <mattbrejza> do they have another?
[18:40] <Laurenceb> heh
[18:41] <Lunar_Lander> FH
[18:41] <Lunar_Lander> but not yet ready :)
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[18:47] <BrainDamage> chris_99: i said with a fucking attenuator inbetween
[18:47] <chris_99> sorry i must have misread
[18:47] <craag> BrainDamage: language please.
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[18:49] <jonsowman> indeed
[18:49] <jonsowman> no need for that
[18:53] <eroomde> no there is definitely a need for an attenuator
[18:53] <jonsowman> ;)
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[19:01] <Lunar_Lander> do you want to see some data from my lab? :)
[19:02] <AndyEsser> always want to see data :)
[19:03] <fsphil> 2.85
[19:03] <Lunar_Lander> we had our payload in that liquid nitrogen filled box (bottom covered in it)
[19:03] <Lunar_Lander> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1lke6hPHKJDMWkxYncyZTlIWGs/view
[19:04] <AndyEsser> fsphil: data needs context to be meaningful ;)
[19:07] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: why do you supoose the spread between the two DS18B20s?
[19:08] <Lunar_Lander> the one sensor is in a cardboard tube which is open at bottom and top, the other one is in a tube where a fan is attached at the top to draw in air
[19:13] <Chimpusmaximus> Some photos of my recovered payload after being in the sea for months https://goo.gl/photos/R6RyRhpSgcQ5F3DT9
[19:14] <chris_99> heh wow, did some random person find it? and call you
[19:14] <eroomde> Chimpusmaximus: anything off the sd card?
[19:15] <Chimpusmaximus> They could not read it but have sent it to me on post
[19:15] <eroomde> Chimpusmaximus: i share this in solidarity https://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/3863616068/in/album-72157622038400075/
[19:16] <AndyEsser> heh
[19:16] <Chimpusmaximus> https://goo.gl/photos/ZEa38NkvNia8cdWr7 is sd card\
[19:16] <fsphil> might be possible to get something of it
[19:16] <mattbrejza> yea thatll probably be fine, just needs the contacts cleaning (from experenice)
[19:17] <fsphil> ipa and a bit of a scrub
[19:17] <Chimpusmaximus> Being its PITs board etc they might not have released they had to mount it to get to the system drive
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> much corrosion :(
[19:18] <Chimpusmaximus> Chris_99: they tracked me down on google+, they found it while on holiday in Germany
[19:18] <eroomde> btw i generally recommend spraying your PCBs in some sort of protection
[19:18] <eroomde> for hab
[19:19] <chris_99> Chimpusmaximus, neat :)
[19:19] <eroomde> electrolube sell spray-can Acrylic Protective Laquer which will do nicely
[19:19] <mattbrejza> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L3H1V3quL946akyTFbcxbvkBYEGzoR36fw/view?usp=sharing
[19:19] <eroomde> just make sure the pcb is thoroughly clean then thoroughly dry before applying
[19:19] <Chimpusmaximus> i'll keep it in mind
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[19:20] <Chimpusmaximus> shame the mobius video camera washed away
[19:21] <AndyEsser> is it common practice to soak test PCB's/payloads, etc?
[19:23] <fsphil> test all the things
[19:23] <fsphil> test radio range, typical battery life. feed it fake gps of a typical flight
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[19:24] <AndyEsser> was going to stick it in the freezer overnight as well ;)
[19:24] <fsphil> for most flights the cold isn't a big deal
[19:24] <AndyEsser> True, but it's good to have empirical data to back that up ;)
[19:25] <AndyEsser> Am currently testing the little power regulator circuit I've just put together whilst eating chinese
[19:25] <fsphil> for Pi's and similar it's worth testing what happens when things get disconnected, like the sd card or camera
[19:25] Action: AndyEsser is living the dream
[19:25] <Chimpusmaximus> I found freezer test good for checking cameras function ok and power source is up to it.
[19:26] <AndyEsser> Chimpusmaximus: yea, power source was my biggest concern with the cold
[19:26] <AndyEsser> wish I had an oscilloscope :(
[19:26] <fsphil> the focus mechanism froze on our first flight
[19:26] <Chimpusmaximus> I was going to use some cheap dash cameras but they turned out to be unreliable when cold
[19:26] <mattbrejza> because there already arnt enough types of arduino, they went and made a new one: https://www.arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoMKR1000
[19:26] <fsphil> many cameras keep themselves pretty warm
[19:27] <fsphil> mkr1000 .. really
[19:27] <fsphil> has wifi. that could be useful
[19:28] <AndyEsser> cantenna on the bottom of a payload ;)
[19:28] <mattbrejza> i wonder if it can be debugged...
[19:28] <mattbrejza> i assume not...
[19:28] <fsphil> "UART: 1"
[19:28] <fsphil> whyyyy
[19:29] <daveake> Arduino MKR1000 / Genuino MKR1000 lol. Expect Fakeuino MKR1000 any day now.
[19:29] <mattbrejza> hmm, these parts are like $4.20 in singles (the micro)
[19:29] <mattbrejza> a stm32 for that price would be covered in uarts
[19:31] <mattbrejza> hmm the datasheet suggests that the 'serial module' can be configured as uart/spi/etc, so perhaps thats more a limitation of the arduino libs
[19:33] <eroomde> AndyEsser: do get a scope
[19:33] <eroomde> it's definitely, definitely a useful thing
[19:33] <eroomde> about the most useful thing you can have
[19:33] <fsphil> that + bench psu
[19:33] <mattbrejza> + saleae logic analyser
[19:35] <eroomde> though most basic digital scopes have enough logic analysis to be used in a pinch
[19:35] <eroomde> tho yes i'd much rather have the salae
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[19:35] <chris_99> the clones are pretty cheap too :)
[19:40] <AndyEsser> eroomde: yea, I've kind of.... used up my budget for this month until my client pays me for this work
[19:40] <AndyEsser> bench psu and a decent scope is on my wishlist
[19:40] <eroomde> ds1054 for scope
[19:41] <eroomde> no brainer
[19:41] <eroomde> psu = more options
[19:41] <Lunar_Lander> ds1054 is really good
[19:41] <chris_99> can that be hacked to 100MHz?, i got the older 50MHz rigol
[19:42] <AndyEsser> eroomde: that's hot.... :)
[19:42] <AndyEsser> Does it come in black :)
[19:42] <AndyEsser> haha
[19:43] <AndyEsser> So quick question... what happens if I just power up an 328p and then don't program it... does it have any sort of 'default' program?
[19:45] <mattbrejza> bitcoin miner
[19:45] <AndyEsser> lol
[19:45] <mattbrejza> sends hashes back to atmel
[19:45] <AndyEsser> 8-bit 8MHz...
[19:45] <AndyEsser> that won't get you far ;)
[19:45] <fsphil> one won't. but millions might
[19:46] <mattbrejza> but no, itll be blank
[19:46] <eroomde> yeah it won't do anything
[19:46] <eroomde> unless you luck-out on cosmic rays that day
[19:46] <AndyEsser> fine, won't plug it in until I get my programmer tomorrow and can change the fuse bits to the right xtal etc
[19:46] <fsphil> check three times before setting the fuses
[19:47] <fsphil> can be annoying if you get them wrong
[19:47] <AndyEsser> I might avoid the xtal and fuse bits for my first program, just to check my code 'works'
[19:47] <fsphil> ye olde blinky
[19:47] <AndyEsser> yes
[19:48] <AndyEsser> Hello Electron
[19:48] <fsphil> intermittant photon generator
[19:48] <AndyEsser> haha
[19:48] <AndyEsser> although I've abstracted a lot of the Port IO out into some C++ classes, so no idea how well it'll work
[19:48] <AndyEsser> probably should've stuck to simple simple
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[19:50] <eroomde> like not using c++
[19:55] <AndyEsser> eurgh
[19:55] <AndyEsser> going to start language war.
[19:55] <AndyEsser> ?*
[19:55] <gonzo_nb> good old C, you can visalise what the resulting assembler is, register useage etc
[19:56] <Jartza> good old asm and you don't need to visualise anything, just code ;)
[19:57] <AndyEsser> I just write 1's and 0's direct to the uC by generating the signals on ISP through tapping my fingers on the wires ;)
[19:57] <eroomde> have done only slightly abstracted from that
[19:57] <gonzo_nb> true, but in C you can still think asm
[19:57] <eroomde> a hex numberpad with a read and write button
[19:58] <mattbrejza> butterflies
[19:59] <mattbrejza> ( https://xkcd.com/378/ )
[19:59] <AndyEsser> mattbrejza: there is an XKCD comic for every situation in life :)
[19:59] <eroomde> but c++ is a slightly random choice
[19:59] <mattbrejza> yes
[19:59] <eroomde> tho not worth being religious over
[20:00] <eroomde> encapsulation is nice, polymorphism is nice
[20:00] <AndyEsser> eroomde: it's a choice I made because it's the language I'm most familiar with
[20:00] <eroomde> everything else you probably don't want to touch
[20:00] <eroomde> for 8 bit micros
[20:00] <AndyEsser> and I've unfortunately reached the point where I can't remember what is ANSI C and what is C++
[20:00] <AndyEsser> the stuff I've written so far as well is static methods, which gets around the overhead of the virtual table lookup
[20:00] <AndyEsser> I may well revert back down to C later on
[20:00] <AndyEsser> but it was quick and easy for me to bash something out
[20:01] <AndyEsser> but would rather use C++ if the performance impact doesn't cause a problem
[20:01] Action: AndyEsser ports the JVM onto the AVR
[20:01] <chris_99> anyone seen http://www.netblocks.eu/product/xrange-sx1272-lora/ per chance?
[20:02] <eroomde> i think qemu might have been ported to an avr
[20:02] <fsphil> I did threaten to port PHP to AVR as an april fools project
[20:02] <eroomde> there is avr bootling linux (over about 8 days) on youtube somewhere
[20:02] <AndyEsser> fsphil: PHP needs to die
[20:02] <AndyEsser> ;)
[20:02] <AndyEsser> eroomde: 8 days to boot?
[20:02] <eroomde> something like that
[20:02] <fsphil> ah yes, they made an ARM emulator for the avr
[20:03] <AndyEsser> that's just mental
[20:03] <AndyEsser> ha
[20:03] <fsphil> http://hackaday.com/2012/03/28/building-the-worst-linux-pc-ever/
[20:03] <eroomde> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm0POwEtiqE
[20:05] <eroomde> 6hrs to boot ubuntu
[20:05] <AndyEsser> that's just mental
[20:05] <AndyEsser> ha
[20:05] <AndyEsser> 6KHz equivalent CPU speed
[20:07] <AndyEsser> well... power regulator has been running for over an hour and hasn't blown up yet
[20:07] <AndyEsser> that's a good start
[20:07] <AndyEsser> :)
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[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> interesting things
[20:22] <AndyEsser> hmm?
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[20:23] <Lunar_Lander> the hackaday link
[20:36] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DL5APR_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL5APR_chase
[20:36] <SA6BSS-Mike> on the subject of run os on things they where not ment to run on http://www.idownloadblog.com/2015/06/22/apple-watch-mac-20-year-old-os/
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[21:03] <AndyEsser> http://imgur.com/7DTO1ey
[21:03] <AndyEsser> It begins!
[21:04] <Lunar_Lander> :) yay
[21:05] <AndyEsser> Now, hopefully the programmer turns up tomorrow before I leave work so I can spend the afternoon programming :)
[21:05] <AndyEsser> Guess once I've got a hang of programming, it's time to order the GPS and NTXB2 modules :)
[21:07] <Upu> make sure you order them soon Christmas and all that
[21:07] <Upu> 5V ?
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[21:08] <AndyEsser> Upu: it's running 5v atm because I'm more familiar with 7805 regulators and stuff
[21:09] <AndyEsser> once I'm happy with things I'll switch to 3.3
[21:10] <antinode> Anyone have any experience with the Tracksoar?
[21:13] <Upu> yeah the guy who does it lives on here
[21:14] <Upu> if you were considering purchasing the GPS from me AndyEsser I don't have the 5V ones in atm
[21:14] <Upu> got the ntx2b's though
[21:14] <AndyEsser> Upu: I'd have switched to 3.3 by then
[21:14] <Upu> don't buy them direct from RMX
[21:14] <AndyEsser> Upu: awesome
[21:14] <AndyEsser> link?
[21:14] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/
[21:14] <antinode> Thanks Upu
[21:14] <Upu> you got a PM
[21:15] <Upu> feel free to ask if you have a question antinode
[21:16] <Upu> The guy behind it is mbales
[21:16] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=51
[21:17] <Upu> this is getting replaced very soon (tommorrow) with a version with a Sarantel antenna
[21:17] <AndyEsser> For testing NTX2b's, better to get the actual equipment I'd have in a chase car (ie airspy + SDR) or getting one of the NRX2bs?
[21:17] <Upu> as they are back yay
[21:17] <Upu> the NRX2B's aren't suitable for reception of the NTX2B's for balloon use
[21:17] <Upu> they aren't sensitive enough
[21:17] <AndyEsser> I know
[21:17] <AndyEsser> but I meant for side-by-side testing
[21:18] <AndyEsser> but I guess as I'll have to buy the chase car stuff anyway, might as well just use that
[21:18] <Upu> For testing just grab a RTL dongle or if its Christmas an Airspy (way better)
[21:18] <AndyEsser> Yea, I liked the look of the Airspys
[21:19] <fsphil> they are neat
[21:20] <fsphil> I've had a few receive-only SDRs and it is the best one so far
[21:20] <AndyEsser> http://www.airspy.co.uk/
[21:20] <AndyEsser> gah
[21:20] <Upu> yup
[21:20] <AndyEsser> o no, that is the right link
[21:20] <AndyEsser> one of them?
[21:21] <fsphil> http://airspy.com/
[21:21] <antinode> Upu: I'm looking for the basic pinout for the tracksoar.
[21:21] <Upu> I think he open sourced it didn't he ?
[21:21] <fsphil> oh secquest have airspy.co.uk now
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[21:22] <Upu> antinode https://www.tracksoar.com/source/
[21:22] <Upu> yeah its pjm
[21:22] <AndyEsser> hmm... bit expensive now, and apparently my xmas list of Power Drill and Mitre Saw has been done so might have to wait on Client payment
[21:22] <AndyEsser> yay....
[21:23] <fsphil> no rush
[21:23] <Upu> well for testing you can get away with a crappy £10 dongle
[21:23] <antinode> Upu, thanks I found was I needed
[21:23] <antinode> what*
[21:23] <Upu> nps if you need him, mbales does come on here
[21:23] <Upu> just not here atm
[21:23] <AndyEsser> https://www.coolcomponents.co.uk/software-defined-radio-receiver-usb-stick-rtl2832-w-r820t.html?gclid=CPOT0pCd0skCFULmwgodRsUFyw
[21:24] <AndyEsser> that so won't work...
[21:24] <Upu> https://www.cosycave.co.uk/
[21:24] <Upu> that will work
[21:24] <fsphil> ignore the other stuff cosycave sell :)
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[21:24] <Upu> however
[21:24] <eroomde> it's down
[21:24] <AndyEsser> cosycave website is down ;)
[21:24] <Upu> yeah
[21:24] <fsphil> aw man
[21:25] <Upu> that dongle on CoolComps may be one of the very drify ones
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[21:36] <pjm> hello
[21:36] <fsphil> hello. heard us then :)
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[21:37] <pjm> lol yeah my 'pjm' alarm was sounding
[21:37] <pjm> the delay was the propagation through my thick head
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> do you want to see another bit of data from the cold lab?
[21:38] <Upu> heh :)
[21:38] <Upu> sure Lunar_Lander enlighten us
[21:39] <fsphil> chill
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> did you see that temperature plot from earlier?
[21:39] <Upu> briefly
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> here is what the gyroscope gave during the test http://s.gullipics.com/image/k/m/m/5yv723-l2mbu8-pohy/2015120809Gyro.jpeg
[21:40] <AndyEsser> https://twitter.com/LeadHyperion/status/675067385729126401
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> interesting how it drifts when very cold
[21:40] <fsphil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRH-Ywpz1_I
[21:41] <fsphil> I forgot how awful that film was
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[21:44] <fsphil> liquid helium does look fun
[21:50] <fsphil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmvlIdNXxjM
[21:52] <SpeedEvil> hehehe
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:53] <SpeedEvil> hehehehe is cheaper
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> :D
[21:53] <toresbe> *chortle*
[21:54] <SpeedEvil> Room temp supercon would be funner
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[21:56] <AndyEsser> o god, science puns...
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[22:12] <Vaizki> I am starting to suspect volkswagen made the software for my R&S (germans!) cellular test set
[22:12] <Vaizki> when I feed it a 10MHz signal from my sig gen, it shows 10.000000000 MHz
[22:13] <Vaizki> there is just no way it can nail it to 11 significant digits per second without a flutter
[22:14] <Vaizki> and there is just no way my sig gen is that accurate either
[22:14] <Upu> turn the aircon back on then it doesn't know if its under test or not
[22:14] Nick change: mattbrej1a -> mattbrejza
[22:14] <Vaizki> aircon? This Is Finland
[22:14] <Upu> diesel heater then
[22:16] <Vaizki> if I feed it 12.345678 MHz, it's off by 0.350 Hz or so.. but at 10MHz it's spot on to 1MHz
[22:17] <Vaizki> ok so this a class 1 first world problem but just made me wonder :D
[22:17] <Vaizki> spot on to 1mHz that is
[22:18] <Vaizki> and no, these two devices don't share a common external reference oscillator
[22:18] <Vaizki> unless you count the 50Hz mains..
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[22:27] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DF2ET_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DF2ET_chase
[22:29] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:29] <gonzo_nb> strong input sig? poss leaking through to ref?
[22:30] <gonzo_nb> thoigh that would be supprising for a r&s
[22:31] <fl_0> hrhr
[22:31] <fl_0> DF2ET_chase with a GPS simulator on the tracker
[22:31] <fl_0> swimming in the mediterranian sea :D
[22:34] <AndyEsser> Interesting... launching a HAB (with a burst altitude of 30km) from my dads place in Crete only gets it as far as the end of the island
[22:34] <AndyEsser> but still on-land
[22:34] <AndyEsser> might have to do that sometime :)
[22:34] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[22:37] <Vaizki> gonzo_nb: -20dB level.. shouldn't be that strong
[22:38] <Vaizki> -20dBm even.. :)
[22:40] <Vaizki> but I read the specs wrong on the siggen, it's not 5ppm.. it's apparently 10ppb ocxo.. damn
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[23:28] <gonzo_> nice gen. But why the error on ther 12meg signal?
[23:31] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-11 after 0310 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-11
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[00:00] --- Fri Dec 11 2015