highaltitude.log.20151208

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[00:55] <Lunar_LanderC> good night
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[07:56] <Lunar_LanderU> morning
[07:57] <AndyEsser> o/
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[08:06] <fsphil> ahoy
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[08:29] <Lunar_LanderU> a question that came up with us was if you theoretically can have two antennas driven from one TX on the payload
[08:29] <Lunar_LanderU> and if you can have one of them pointing upwards instead of downwards
[08:31] <Lunar_LanderU> question came up because my colleague eugen thought what would happen if the payload landed in a way that the antenna gets up stuck in the dirt for instance
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[08:33] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> it does not mather, you will here the tx from a km away anyway so dont wotty about that
[08:33] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> *worry
[08:33] <Lunar_LanderU> ah ok
[08:34] <Lunar_LanderU> he just said he meant it in a way that the active element could break off or so
[08:35] <Lunar_LanderU> guess you have to do good soldering there
[08:36] <fsphil> I have had two antennas before, one on top and one on bottom. both being driven by different payloads
[08:36] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> but the antenna is soft as in a wire? and will just lay on the ground
[08:36] <Lunar_LanderU> yea
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[08:36] <fsphil> they can get pretty crushed. depends how they land
[08:37] <fsphil> but I've never not gotten a signal back, so far
[08:37] <Lunar_LanderU> it's made from E-guitar string
[08:38] <Lunar_LanderU> thanks :)
[08:39] <fsphil> yeah that stuff works well
[08:41] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> I gave up on guitar strings as I could never get them to solder well, using scraped usb cables or charger cabels , they are soft and multistranded
[08:41] <Lunar_LanderU> ah
[08:42] <fsphil> the guitar strings keep their shape well
[08:42] <Lunar_LanderU> I found soldering them quite nice
[08:42] <fsphil> for very small payloads that's great as they don't need extra support
[08:43] <Lunar_LanderU> no more straws :P
[08:43] <fsphil> no excuse for that mcdonalds now
[08:43] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> but as fsphill says its verry unususal not getting signal after landing, be sure to secure the batteries so the dont fall out on impact
[08:43] <craag> SA6BSS-Mike|2: There's the tin-plated stuff, which is perfect.
[08:43] <Lunar_LanderU> yeah
[08:43] <craag> ernie ball custom guage 13
[08:43] <craag> is what I use
[08:44] <Lunar_LanderU> that is what I got
[08:44] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> ok, but I founs a better way to make an antenna and solder it to bayload in like two minuts, super simple
[08:45] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> have to go now but I can get the camera and show how to later if anyone is interesed
[08:45] <Lunar_LanderU> cool :)
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[08:46] <craag> guitar wire takes less than 2 minutes :P
[08:46] <SA6BSS-Mike|2> no the dont :) they have their own will
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[09:00] <Vaizki> nothing like a decent soldering iron...
[09:00] <Vaizki> especially if you can't solder like me
[09:00] <Vaizki> especially if you can't solder .. like me
[09:00] <Vaizki> ;)
[09:01] <Lunar_LanderU> :)
[09:02] <AndyEsser> Am being asked for my Xmas Present ideas from family... Guessing Helium, Balloons and Parachutes is probably not a good idea :)
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[09:05] <mfa298> Arduino and parts from Hab Supplies could be the other favourite, or SDR of choice (FCD, Airspy, HackRF).
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[09:05] <daveake> Colinear
[09:05] <daveake> Reel of RG213
[09:06] <AndyEsser> SDR's better than a hardware radio plugged into a PC?
[09:06] <daveake> So many choices :)
[09:07] <daveake> Problem with real radios is they're either new and expensive (FT817) or cheaper but second-hand (so you take a bit of a risk that everything is working)
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[09:08] <mfa298> A good SDR (one of the ones listed above) will do as good a job as a real radio, The rtlsdrs aren't so good. After that it's mostly down to personal preference. Both have their advantages
[09:08] <AndyEsser> Yea, had looked at the new Yaesu radios, and... yea... not cheap
[09:08] <daveake> That said, a real radio is less cumbersome on a chase. I use SDRs at base but real radios on a chase
[09:08] Nick change: nigelvh -> Guest95830
[09:08] <fsphil> SDR's are real radios :) it's just, the software hasn't perhaps caught up yet
[09:08] <fsphil> not just as reliable
[09:08] <daveake> OK "radio with knobs on"
[09:08] <fsphil> but getting there
[09:10] <mfa298> depends on how good your laptop/netbook is as well. My netbook struggles to do sdr and dl-fldigi, plus I've found it's easier fiddling with real knobs and buttons when in the car.
[09:10] <fsphil> I don't like having USB stuff plugged into my laptop while in the car though. always afraid of it getting snapped
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[09:17] <number10> my netbook I use for chasing, some of the USB connectors are now intermettent
[09:18] <daveake> As is the I key
[09:19] <number10> endeed et es
[09:19] <daveake> :)
[09:20] <number10> I always know that you have babel translate filter set to on
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[09:32] <AndyEsser> Think I'll likely go for an SDR first to start with, and then maybe move up to a "big boy" radio :)
[09:33] <fsphil> the rtlsdr's are a great starting point
[09:35] <fsphil> expect to be confused at first, if you are not familiar with radio :)
[09:36] <AndyEsser> I'm not "unfamiliar" with it - but it's been a while since I touched a radio that wasn't an FM tuner in a car :)
[09:36] <Vaizki> sdr# + rtl stick is an easy entry into SDR listening
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[09:36] <fsphil> haha
[09:36] <AndyEsser> the Airspy SDR looks like it comes with a handy library for integrating into software, so might look at that
[09:37] <fsphil> the SDR apps just give you a nice dump of RF
[09:37] <fsphil> the mode and tuning bits should be fairly familiar though
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[09:37] <Vaizki> airspy is nice but there isn't really much need to do custom software for it
[09:38] <Vaizki> unless someone builds a NFM decoder for I/Q data into dl-fldigi
[09:39] <Vaizki> aaaaaand then I remembered what dl-fldigi source code looks like
[09:39] <fsphil> yeah. the raw data from the SDR probably isn't useful to you unless you want to develop your own demodulator software
[09:39] <fsphil> *which you should totally do :)
[09:39] <fsphil> lol Vaizki
[09:39] <Vaizki> it's not horrible but it's not a "well managed" codebase :)
[09:39] <AndyEsser> fsphil: low-level software developer by trade
[09:39] <AndyEsser> OF COURSE I want to do that :)
[09:40] <fsphil> nice
[09:40] <fsphil> some good talks on the subject here: http://greatscottgadgets.com/sdr/
[09:40] <fsphil> by the guy who made the hackrf, but not specific to that
[09:41] <AndyEsser> much appreciated :)
[09:41] <AndyEsser> My bookmark listed has exploded in the last 24 hours :)
[09:42] <AndyEsser> Also, based on the landing site predictor... December is a really bad time to launch?
[09:42] <fsphil> yep :)
[09:42] <fsphil> winter in general
[09:42] <AndyEsser> (at least in the UK)
[09:43] <AndyEsser> That's ok, I probably won't be in a position to do my first launch until June/July anyway
[09:43] <AndyEsser> And personally I'd prefer to see one in action before that :)
[09:43] <fsphil> I get around that by sometimes launching payloads I don't intend to get back
[09:43] <AndyEsser> heh
[09:43] <fsphil> "yes I totally meant to land in the north sea."
[09:43] <AndyEsser> :)
[09:44] <AndyEsser> "Dual Purpose... high altitude measurements... and extremely low altitude measurements"
[09:44] <fsphil> combined high altitude / ocean buoy
[09:44] <Vaizki> sea level survey complete
[09:44] <AndyEsser> Achievement Unlocked?
[09:45] <Vaizki> *** and an angry bird
[09:45] <AndyEsser> Sounds like a KSP contract - "Launch a vehicle to 30km and then land it in water"
[09:46] <chris_99> heh did you guys see the quadcopter that can go underwater too
[09:46] <Vaizki> does it come back up?
[09:47] <chris_99> heh - http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/drones/a18419/waterproof-drone-transforms-from-quadcopter-to-submarine/
[09:48] <Vaizki> why is it trailing cable?
[09:48] <Vaizki> oh ah it actually says
[09:48] <chris_99> i think it's actually tethered underwater
[09:48] <Vaizki> learning to read
[09:48] <chris_99> heh
[09:52] <AndyEsser> related to quadcopters
[09:52] <AndyEsser> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HnwhGgsgXc
[09:52] <AndyEsser> apologies to cat lovers...
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[10:18] <mfa298> reading back, the lessons on http://greatscottgadgets.com/sdr/ are well worth going through - I've only just started with them though.
[10:18] <mfa298> I suspect some of the bits from the last couple of UKHAS conferences are good as well
[10:19] <AndyEsser> Are the conferences annual?
[10:19] <AndyEsser> Will have to put the 2016 dates in my diary :)
[10:21] <mfa298> it is annual, usually summertime in London
[10:22] <mfa298> https://ukhas.org.uk/general:conferences
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[10:22] <AndyEsser> mfa298: thank you kindly
[10:25] <mfa298> for the 2014 bits that covered stm and bits of sdr I think there's only slides rather than the presentation. I've not watched Adam's SDR talk yet from 2015 but I'm sure it's good.
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[10:25] <fsphil> picked up his talk outside the room on an sdr. appropriatly
[10:26] <AndyEsser> heh
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[10:41] <AndyEsser> How often do people in here typically do HAB launches?
[10:41] <daveake> Varies, from never to several a year
[10:41] <daveake> (per person)
[10:42] <daveake> In the summer, it's rare to go for more than a week without at least 1 launch
[10:42] <daveake> In the winter, it's rare to even have a launch :/
[10:43] <AndyEsser> Are people generally open to randoms coming along and observing? (again, I'm aware it varies from person to person) :)
[10:43] <daveake> Usually fine, so long as you check with them first and don't just turn up :)
[10:43] <AndyEsser> Haha, of course
[10:44] <craag> where are you based AndyEsser ?
[10:44] <daveake> Oh, it's happened (not to me)
[10:44] <AndyEsser> up in Chester
[10:44] <AndyEsser> annoyingly I moved from Cambridge a year ago
[10:44] <AndyEsser> should've gotten back in touch with eroomde ages ago
[10:44] <AndyEsser> Imagine there aren't that many launches near me
[10:44] <craag> Yeah not many launches up there due to airport concentration
[10:45] <AndyEsser> Yea
[10:45] <AndyEsser> and lack of flat terrain
[10:45] Action: AndyEsser glares at Airbus facility down the road
[10:45] <craag> manchester space programme has been doing some though I think
[10:45] <Geoff-G8-> Visting Pubs ?
[10:45] <daveake> and trees
[10:45] <gonzo_> thta's not such a prob. As you are only interested in the first few 100mtrs
[10:45] <craag> with varying levels of success...
[10:45] <fsphil> you're actually in a good spot for the more northern launches
[10:46] <AndyEsser> Are most of your South/East based?
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[10:46] <daveake> And to think I spent an hour on a Skype video call with them as they were starting
[10:46] <daveake> I failed
[10:46] <Geoff-G8-> :)
[10:46] <gonzo_> terrain will affect your ability to receive more than launch. A hill is a good plate to rx from
[10:46] <craag> AndyEsser: Mostly cambs/oxford sort of area (southampton for me though)
[10:47] <AndyEsser> craag: ah cool
[10:47] <AndyEsser> well I have friends in both locations anyway, so making a weekend out of it or something similar wouldn't be too much of an issue
[10:47] <gonzo_> I'm just down the raod from them too, but I don't launch enough to affect the concentration
[10:49] <AndyEsser> Also, quick question, what actually causes the parachute to deploy?
[10:49] <daveake> air
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[10:49] <AndyEsser> They're not electronically fired are they?
[10:49] <craag> we usually attach it predeployed
[10:49] <craag> so just tied on, all opened up
[10:49] <craag> doesn't make a difference on the way up
[10:49] <craag> and catches the air on the way down :)
[10:49] <AndyEsser> so just the motion of the payload beginning to descend causes the parachute to start to work etc
[10:49] <daveake> yes
[10:49] <AndyEsser> interesting
[10:50] <AndyEsser> simple, but effective I guess :)
[10:50] <daveake> Both good attributes
[10:50] <AndyEsser> indeed
[10:50] <fsphil> they still manage to fail sometimes
[10:50] <gonzo_> nope the third attribute is not good. Guessing!
[10:50] <AndyEsser> gonzo_: keeps things interesting :)
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[10:51] <gonzo_> and it adds to dave's list of 'how to fail' things
[10:52] <gonzo_> well worth a read to avoid the avoidables
[10:52] <AndyEsser> daveake: assuming you are Dave Akerman?
[10:54] <daveake> I guess I didn't encrypt my nick sufficiently :p
[10:54] <AndyEsser> hehe
[10:54] <AndyEsser> Just thought I'd check - read most pages of your site last night :)
[10:55] <daveake> That's keen :)
[10:55] <daveake> Some people just read the "how to fail at HAB" page and then follow it
[10:56] <AndyEsser> Well, I couldn't sleep last night
[10:56] <AndyEsser> so read as much as I could about HAB stuff
[10:56] <mfa298> next he'll be telling us he's read all the pages on the wiki.
[10:56] <AndyEsser> not all
[10:56] <AndyEsser> :P
[10:56] <daveake> and indexed them
[10:56] <Vaizki> And cross-linked
[10:57] <AndyEsser> daveake: that's far too organised of me
[10:57] <AndyEsser> s/of/for
[10:58] <mfa298> if you said you had we'd know you're lying, many mysteries are burried in the ukhas wiki and we don't think anyone can find everything there.
[10:58] <daveake> You can never know if you have read it all
[10:59] <mfa298> string left unorganised in a draw for a year is easier to unravel than the wiki
[10:59] <AndyEsser> haha
[10:59] <AndyEsser> sounds like you're volunteering to organise it :)
[11:00] <AndyEsser> o god, or is that the noob induction?!
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[11:01] <mfa298> people have appeared here saying they're going to try and organise it and have never been seen again.
[11:01] <AndyEsser> heh
[11:01] <craag> the truth of that statement is quite worrying
[11:02] <AndyEsser> maybe one day, when I have acquired knowledge, and have a spare day, I might attempt it :P
[11:02] Action: AndyEsser is a glutton for punishment
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[11:02] <craag> 'have acquired knowledge'
[11:02] <daveake> day?
[11:02] <AndyEsser> daveake: little pieces :P
[11:03] <AndyEsser> craag: well, wouldn't want to go changing your wiki willy nilly without any experience to backup the changes :P
[11:04] <craag> just a page indexing all the random unlinked projects on there would be a good start
[11:04] Action: AndyEsser adds to To-Do list :)
[11:05] <craag> There's a lot of random pages, some with neat ideas, that random people have made and never got round to linking to them
[11:05] <daveake> quite a lot of random engineering on there :p
[11:05] <craag> ha yes
[11:05] <AndyEsser> the wiki backend must have a list of all content pages somehow, in order to provide an idea of what content is there?
[11:06] <craag> https://ukhas.org.uk/start?do=index
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[11:07] <craag> expand the 'projects' heading for example
[11:07] <AndyEsser> my monitor isn't long enough
[11:07] <AndyEsser> :)
[11:08] <AndyEsser> so many stub pages that haven't been touched in years :(
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[11:13] <AndyEsser> What software do people recommend for PCB design?
[11:13] <UpuWork> getting someone else to do it
[11:14] <daveake> +1 lol
[11:14] <AndyEsser> (I promise - I will stop asking constant questions eventually)
[11:14] <mattbrejza> kicad/eagle
[11:14] <AndyEsser> Ta muchly :)
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[11:18] <daveake> Rather than kicad/eagle, I use phone-a-friend
[11:19] <AndyEsser> ha
[11:19] <UpuWork> :)
[11:19] <craag> poke mattbrejza
[11:20] <craag> he'll sound disinterested, then have a pcb done by lunchtime
[11:20] <AndyEsser> haha
[11:20] <AndyEsser> Printed and built as well? :P
[11:20] <craag> ha no, he never sends them off :P
[11:21] <craag> a delay between when you think the layout is done, and actually sending it to the fab is generally a good idea though
[11:22] <eroomde> morning AndyEsser
[11:22] <craag> gives you time to reflect on it a bit
[11:22] <eroomde> yes, sleep on a layout
[11:22] <AndyEsser> howdy eroomde
[11:22] <eroomde> I have bought cheese for 18 people tomorrow. It doesn't looks a great deal different to what I would consider to be cheese for just one
[11:23] <AndyEsser> haha
[11:23] <mfa298> also getting it peer reviewed, especially for early HAB boards, means you can learn from others mistakes before building something
[11:24] <craag> +1 especially with gps and stuff where layout can be critical around antennas
[11:24] <AndyEsser> yea, those bits were always going to worry me a bit
[11:24] <craag> you'll be ever so thankful someone pointed out the groundplane under your chip antenna
[11:24] <AndyEsser> I'm assuming RF devices still don't behave on breadboard well
[11:24] <eroomde> no
[11:25] <AndyEsser> Didn't think that would've changed in 10 years :)
[11:25] <craag> just give it a go, then upload the gerbers (cam files) to http://gerblook.org/ and paste the link here
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[11:25] <eroomde> and prepare for Feedback
[11:25] <AndyEsser> o cool :)
[11:26] <AndyEsser> "Why does your Flight Computer have more RAM than my PC...?"
[11:27] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-11 after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-11
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[11:49] <AndyEsser> mattbrejza: already lost my temper with kicad ;)
[11:49] <mattbrejza> yea kicad is a bit of a weird one
[11:49] <mattbrejza> you might be better off starting with eagle
[11:50] <UpuWork> but why do I always cringe when I recommend Eagle
[11:50] <UpuWork> its like
[11:50] <UpuWork> "there will be pain and suffering"
[11:50] <AndyEsser> I'm sure I downloaded Eagle last week and started playing with it
[11:50] <AndyEsser> I should just go back and find a copy of Ares that I'm used to
[11:50] <AndyEsser> ha
[11:50] <mattbrejza> at least eagle has all the tools accessable via buttons on the left unlike kicad
[11:51] <AndyEsser> well the main issue I'm having with kicad atm is just trying to place tracks, it keeps complaining that it's too near a pad, but I'm trying to make a trace _for_ that pad
[11:51] <AndyEsser> *sigh*
[11:51] <chris_99> http://www.circuitmaker.com/ seemed kind of interesting from my brief play with it
[11:52] <mattbrejza> AndyEsser: you need to draw a schematic first then import that into the pcb thing
[11:52] <AndyEsser> Ah ok
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[12:00] <eroomde> AndyEsser: is ares what we used at school?
[12:01] <Vaizki> eagle is like the arduino of pcb software
[12:01] <Vaizki> and people here use arduinos too so.. :)
[12:02] <AndyEsser> eroomde: yes
[12:02] <AndyEsser> Ares and Isis
[12:03] <AndyEsser> Every time I've moved house over the last 10 years I've come across the CD for them... guarantee I've thrown that out now :(
[12:04] <fsphil> so called isis
[12:04] <gonzo_> a bell has jujst run in NSA again
[12:05] <SpeedEvil> And the typo society.
[12:05] <AndyEsser> hehe
[12:05] <nick_> Vaizki: isn't Fritzing the arduino of pcb software?
[12:05] <fsphil> at least they don't find him. they'll be looking for gozno_
[12:06] <Vostok> is kicad any good?
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[12:06] <nick_> I've found kicad to have a similar level of badness to Eagle
[12:07] <nick_> In terms of pain while using.
[12:07] <mattbrejza> its more powerful though
[12:08] <nick_> It also doesn't have the limitations of the free version of Eagle.
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[12:11] <Vaizki> nick_, umm true .. never used it
[12:11] <Vaizki> kicad's biggest problem at least used to be the release cycle
[12:11] <Vaizki> i.e. it didn't seem to exist
[12:12] <Vaizki> "just grab a nightly and compile it"
[12:12] <fsphil> git pull every so often, make and pray
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[12:13] <fsphil> that seems to be the gqrx cycle at the moment
[12:13] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RAJ-4 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RAJ-4
[12:13] <nick_> I found Fritzing was really good for making diagrams for teaching kids to use arduinos.
[12:13] <nick_> (assuming you make the schematic correct)
[12:13] <Vostok> fritzling
[12:14] <dbrooke> heh, I just packaged gqrx for CRUX and kicad was next on my list
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[12:14] <AndyEsser> gqrx>
[12:14] <nick_> And I quite like the idea of PCB design by first copying the connections you have in a breadboard.
[12:14] <AndyEsser> ?*
[12:15] <dbrooke> with eagle I got the impression you needed to know the exact device before you could draw a schematic, rather than assigning a footprint at layout time, is that right?
[12:15] <AndyEsser> dbrooke: this is the problem I'm having with lots of the PCB layout tools I've been trying
[12:16] <AndyEsser> Can't just place a 64-pin TQFP package
[12:16] <AndyEsser> have to actually provide a specific part which invariably isn't in the library
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[12:17] <craag> You'd want to label the pins on the schematic anyway
[12:17] <craag> to make sure you've got it right
[12:17] <craag> so all you're doing, is doing that in the part editor instead
[12:17] <fsphil> gqrx is an SDR application for linux/mac
[12:17] <craag> and then it's a block you can throw into future designs
[12:17] <dbrooke> I wouldn't find that so much of a problem at layout time, but it seems odd for scematic, with kicad I can draw a schematic with generic resistors and then decide the footprint later
[12:18] <fsphil> having to pick the footprint at schematic time is a bit odd
[12:19] <dbrooke> so is that the eagle way, or am I missing something?
[12:19] <craag> I'm sure I'll think differently once I've been converted to kicad ;)
[12:19] <craag> s/converted/upgraded/
[12:20] <craag> eagle way is a part must have a footprint + symbol before you can put it in the schematic afaik
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[12:21] <dbrooke> OK, that's what I thought, so far I've just spent a bit of time with both eagle/kicad to try to decide which to use
[12:23] <craag> everyone seems to be going kicad way
[12:24] <craag> especially as now it can import eagle parts iirc?
[12:24] <mattbrejza> footprints only
[12:24] <craag> meh, most of the work though
[12:24] <dbrooke> we didn't have CAD when I was at school, just hand written coding sheets, or punched cards if we went to the local Uni 8-)
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[12:25] <craag> and I used to skimp on my symbols, so that's probably a good thing to redo :)
[12:25] <russss> I can confirm that I can at least now close windows on kicad for the mac
[12:25] <russss> so that's an improvement
[12:25] <craag> heh
[12:25] <russss> given that I've just re-learned Eagle I suspect i'm probably going to stick with that for a while though
[12:29] <fsphil> I've been playing about in both as a newbie. eagle is a bit easier so far
[12:29] <fsphil> but this may just be because there are more tutorials and documentation for it
[12:30] <AndyEsser> Gah!!!! DRC is going to be the death of me
[12:31] <mattbrejza> for example in kicad, if you want to drag a component and have all the wires stay connected and move too you need to use the drag tool rather than the move tool (why? :/). However the move tool is avaliable on the toobar, but for the drag tool you need to press 'G'
[12:31] <fsphil> sheesh
[12:32] <fsphil> so if you move something, it breaks everything by default?
[12:33] <mattbrejza> yea
[12:35] <fsphil> that might explain why I kept messing up things
[12:35] <mattbrejza> the library system is a right mess too
[12:37] <mattbrejza> ive decided i dont like kicads way of connecting packages and symbols (the symbol has on it to which pin on the package it connects, so you need different versions of a symbol for different packages if the pinout is different)
[12:37] <AndyEsser> so very nearly sent the 650 datasheet for this PIC to our A0 plotter...
[12:38] <Vaizki> I don't know what they are smoking at kicad hq but the file extensions are telling...
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[12:39] <Vaizki> .pretty for footprint libraries.. umm.. "ok"
[12:46] <eroomde> adamgreig: rachel, iain's wife, is coauthor of one of bill gates' 5 books of the year
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[12:50] <eroomde> so that's good for royalties
[12:56] <adamgreig> wow, nice
[12:56] <adamgreig> yea i bet
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[13:10] <Vaizki> I think bill also recommended xkcd books :)
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[13:23] <fsphil> the "what if" book is pretty good
[13:24] <chris_99> has anyone got the new one?
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[13:43] <ballooon> does anyone know how to get in contact with <SpeedEvil>?
[13:44] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: he wants to get in contact with you ^
[13:45] <ballooon> do you know how I would?
[13:45] <eroomde> follow my example
[13:48] <ballooon> SpeedEvil: I talked to you the other day and you mentioned evoh nylon material, I was wondering if you knew of a company we could source it from?
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[13:56] <ballooon> or does anyone know where to get the material?
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[16:31] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PIBUG - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PIBUG
[16:33] <chris_99> ooh is there a balloon up then?
[16:35] <daveake> nope
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[16:42] <LunarMobile> Hello
[16:42] <LunarMobile> Transient malfunctions are no fun
[16:43] <LunarMobile> More later
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[16:58] <AndyEsser> Night all
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[17:23] <chris_99> has anyone here played with gnss-sdr per chance?
[17:26] <russss> never heard of it. Looks cool.
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[17:30] <Laurenceb> http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0967-3334/37/1/83
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[17:31] <adamgreig> congrats
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[17:36] Nick change: Guest95830 -> nigelvh
[17:36] <mattbrejza> is this the paper you spent a few months arguing about figures?
[17:37] <Laurenceb> thanks
[17:37] <Laurenceb> hehe
[17:37] <Laurenceb> one of them
[17:38] <Laurenceb> I don't dare open the pdf, I known the editors are going to have made a mess of it
[17:38] <mattbrejza> dont they send you a proof to check, or did someone else do that?
[17:41] <Laurenceb> they did, but it seems to have been faffed again with since the proof :P
[17:41] <Laurenceb> * +with
[17:41] <mattbrejza> oh right
[17:43] <Laurenceb> heh looks like its not too bad :D
[17:43] <Laurenceb> I prefer the layout in PLOS, they let you use almost full page width for figures and tables, which looks much nicer
[17:44] <mattbrejza> hmm, no two column format?
[17:44] <Laurenceb> nope :-/ IOP sucks
[17:45] <Laurenceb> only thing missing is a disclaimer : "authorship of this paper should not be considered an endorsement of capillary refill time as a diagnostic tool"
[17:45] <Laurenceb> as I'm 95% sure its snake oil
[17:46] <russss> heh
[17:47] <Laurenceb> thats nothing, my next paper is on an automated homoeopathy mixing machine
[17:48] <Laurenceb> /s
[17:55] <adamgreig> Laurenceb: you hook it up to water and it comes with a lifetime supply of all the other ingredients?
[17:55] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03DL4MDW-12 after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL4MDW-12
[17:55] <Laurenceb> something like that
[17:57] <Laurenceb> there is this I guess
[17:57] <Laurenceb> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0138155
[17:57] <Laurenceb> but... meta analysis lol
[17:58] <Vaizki> With no unnatural atoms of course
[17:59] <Vaizki> Never heard of this CRT
[17:59] <Laurenceb> Vaizki: its poorly defined and probably useless
[18:00] <Laurenceb> massive physiological biassing factors when done manually
[18:01] <Laurenceb> it can measure skin surface temperature... sort of
[18:01] <chris_99> awh : Tracking start on channel 1 for satellite GPS PRN 14 (Block IIR), Loss of lock in channel 1! -- i guess that's to be expected when using a random antenna
[18:02] <Laurenceb> chris_99: this is with GNU radio?
[18:02] <chris_99> yeah gnss-sdr which uses that
[18:02] <Laurenceb> nice
[18:02] <Laurenceb> how much cpu is it eating?
[18:02] <chris_99> i'll buy a cheapo antenna to try it
[18:02] <chris_99> sec
[18:02] <chris_99> 176% heh
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[18:03] <chris_99> on a quad core machine
[18:03] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03ASTROPI after 034 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ASTROPI
[18:03] <Laurenceb> holy shit
[18:03] <Laurenceb> didnt expect it to be that bad
[18:05] <adamgreig> if it's still trying to do acquisition over a bunch of channels with no lock...
[18:05] <chris_99> i'm just looking at http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-Sure-SMA-Male-3-Meter-GPS-Antenna-Aerial-Cable-Right-Angle-1575-45MHz-UK-Stock-/301768699075 how does one actually power that, surely not via the SMA connector?
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[18:06] <adamgreig> yea via the sma connector
[18:06] <adamgreig> upu has a bunch http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=59_65
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[18:10] <chris_99> interesting, would they work passively too?
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[18:15] <Vaizki> Not really
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[18:15] <Vaizki> Airspy for example can provide power for that
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[18:19] <chris_99> i just have an rtlsdr alas, which i presume would be hard to try to adapt to power one
[18:19] <Vaizki> And the circuit to inject power is not very complex anyway
[18:20] <Laurenceb> just an inductor and a few caps
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[18:20] <Laurenceb> prob worth using a high quality inductor
[18:20] <Laurenceb> maybe 2 inductors
[18:20] <Laurenceb> to get wideband rejection
[18:21] <chris_99> ah interesting, would that not effect the receving ability at all
[18:21] <Laurenceb> in theory...
[18:21] <Laurenceb> but yeah, if you want DC injection from ~DC to a few Ghz thats not trivial
[18:21] <Laurenceb> would probably need two inductors and a few caps
[18:22] <Laurenceb> but its easy to simulate in spice
[18:22] <chris_99> gotcha cool
[18:22] <Vaizki> Or you can buy a ready made one
[18:22] <Laurenceb> yeah or that :P
[18:22] <chris_99> yeah would i just search for gps antenna injector?
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[18:23] <Vaizki> Bias tee injector maybe
[18:23] <chris_99> merci
[18:25] <Lunar_LanderC> evening
[18:25] <Vaizki> I'm sure mini circuits makes one :)
[18:27] <chris_99> they do apparetnyl
[18:27] <chris_99> just trying to find a price
[18:27] <Vaizki> Probably 30 euros
[18:27] <Vaizki> For the low end
[18:28] <chris_99> cheapest seems to be £42
[18:29] <chris_99> oh theres an SMT one for cheap i think - http://www.minicircuits.com/MCLStore/ModelPriceDisplay?14495992172610.5785924693484981
[18:31] <Vaizki> Ok pricier than I thought then
[18:36] <Vaizki> Some Israeli eBay seller might have one for cheap
[18:36] <Vaizki> No idea why they have millions of RF mixers, filters etc but they do :)
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[18:45] <chris_99> yeah i noticed one from israel heh
[18:56] <chris_99> i might just order one of these to see if it works before going the more expensive route
[18:56] <chris_99> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1PC-Ceramic-GPS-Built-in-Antenna-Passive-Antenna-PAD-Cell-Phone-Watch-Antenna-/171620223188
[18:59] <Vaizki> or maybe from upu a http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_65&product_id=80
[18:59] <Vaizki> and an edge SMA connector to go with it
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[19:51] <Upu> evening
[19:54] <jonsowman> evening
[20:01] <fab4space> evening
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[20:04] <fsphil> nineing
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[20:43] <Lunar_LanderC> this PC is killing me
[20:46] <fsphil> rise of the machines
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[20:49] <Lunar_LanderC> yea
[20:50] <Lunar_LanderC> printer/scanner install yesterday was so smooth
[20:50] <Lunar_LanderC> and then it was strange why the printer didn't do anything later that evening
[20:50] <Lunar_LanderC> and suddenly the scanner wasn't responding too
[20:50] <Lunar_LanderC> no CUPS entry
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[20:56] <Lunar_LanderC> also, I regret to say that
[20:56] <Lunar_LanderC> another GPS died because I did not see it was still on the PSU
[20:56] <Lunar_LanderC> :(
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[20:58] <Upu> why do you keep sticking GPS's on too higher voltages ?
[20:59] <Lunar_LanderC> yeah I asked myself the same question
[20:59] <Lunar_LanderC> we had a problem starting the payload, so I told Eugen to disconnect the batteries and connect the PSU
[20:59] <Lunar_LanderC> we both missed that the PSU also ran to a breadboard with a GPS test rig
[21:00] <Upu> keep it up
[21:00] <Upu> good for business :/
[21:00] <Lunar_LanderC> yea
[21:00] <Lunar_LanderC> the payload problem was strange too
[21:00] <Lunar_LanderC> we had the batteries on the PSU and then we plugged in the JST cable from the PSU to the stormdrifter
[21:00] <Lunar_LanderC> RTTY was sounding strange and the data coming in was very strange too
[21:01] <Lunar_LanderC> like a GPGLL string suddenly appeared
[21:01] <Lunar_LanderC> problem disappeared when we did not plug in the JST after applying power
[21:01] <Lunar_LanderC> but before
[21:01] <Lunar_LanderC> (the GPGLL was there in the dl-fldigi decoding field)
[21:04] <Upu> buffer over run ?
[21:09] <Lunar_LanderC> that might be
[21:17] <Lunar_LanderC> today's highlight was/is our cold+endurance test https://youtu.be/VLiMriBDP9Y
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[21:18] <Lunar_LanderC> really extreme conditions
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[21:32] <Lunar_LanderC> inside temp at one point was -40°C
[21:33] <Lunar_LanderC> the DS18B20 read as low as -105°C
[21:42] <chris_99> is the big cylinder full of liquid nitrogen?
[21:47] <Lunar_LanderC> yea
[21:49] <chris_99> the datasheet says shows it's only supposed to work as low as -55°C interestingly
[21:50] <russss> that's a nice dewar you've got there
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[21:56] <chris_99> SpeedEvil, did you mean FM-CW with a tuneable laser btw?
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[21:58] <Laurenceb> chris_99: related http://redlum.xohp.pagesperso-orange.fr/laser/red_diodelasers.html
[21:59] <chris_99> cool, cheers
[21:59] <Lunar_LanderC> :)
[22:00] <Lunar_LanderC> yeah we wondered how much below -55°C it would still measure something reasonably
[22:01] <chris_99> :)
[22:02] <chris_99> do you know anything about holography out of interest Laurenceb, i'm confused because the film is photosensitive right? what makes it different from std. photography film
[22:03] <chris_99> hmm wikipedia even indicates you can use photographic film
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[22:05] <fl_0> re
[22:06] <fl_0> after update of the tracker software it won't shoot any pics nor receive GPS
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[22:06] <fl_0> the logs says something about cannot talk to I2C slave
[22:06] <fl_0> seems to be a device tree issue
[22:06] <SpeedEvil> chris_99: no
[22:06] <fl_0> has anybody had that before on a PitS board?
[22:07] <chris_99> SpeedEvil, ah, it seems both approaches are used interestingly
[22:07] <SpeedEvil> chris_99: Sweep squarewave modulated laser in frequency from 1-40MHz or so.
[22:07] <chris_99> mmm
[22:07] <SpeedEvil> All the time the laser is off, measure the reflected light power.
[22:08] <SpeedEvil> The sweep frequency is very slow, taking a substantial fraction of a second
[22:08] <chris_99> i guess you could make it faster using by say doing 50-100MHz instead?
[22:08] <SpeedEvil> This means that you can say integrate for 1000 subsequent 'off' periods before actually digitising, and still get a usable signal.
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> The resultant signal is a frequency vs reflectivity curve - with nulls when the reflection happens when the laser is on.
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> The position of these nulls in the graph tells you what the range is
[22:10] <Upu> hey fl_0 yes I think you need to disable or enable device tree
[22:11] <Upu> daveake can confirm
[22:11] <fl_0> Upu: jepp thought of. but ENable oder DISable? :)
[22:12] <daveake> either is fine
[22:12] <fl_0> ok than its another problem
[22:12] <daveake> however changing that setting will probably change if spi/i2c is enabled
[22:12] <fl_0> just booted without DT and having the same issue
[22:12] <daveake> So you'll need to enable those in raspi-config
[22:13] <daveake> there is a message during tracker startup about device tree, but it's just information and of no conequence
[22:13] <daveake> what exactly did you update
[22:13] <daveake> ?
[22:14] <fl_0> ar... the tracker git repo
[22:14] <chris_99> SpeedEvil, is there a simple way which to get the difference between two frequencies? to calculate the shift, i was wondering about a mixer
[22:14] <fl_0> and built it
[22:15] <daveake> latest works fine with or without device tree
[22:15] <daveake> in fact Upu and I did some testing on that today
[22:15] <fl_0> grmmmmm
[22:15] <fl_0> camera module broken?!
[22:15] <fl_0> but GPS didn't say a thing either
[22:15] <fl_0> so i cannot believe taht
[22:15] <fl_0> that
[22:16] <daveake> You *only* updated pits and nothing else?
[22:16] <fl_0> let me see
[22:16] <fl_0> i installed the PIGPIO stuff
[22:16] <daveake> Re-install wiringpi
[22:16] <fl_0> as outlined on pi-in-the-sky.com
[22:16] <fl_0> and the ssdv part
[22:16] <daveake> As in, download latest wiring pi and build it
[22:18] <fl_0> ok
[22:18] <fl_0> will tra that
[22:18] <fl_0> will try that
[22:18] <fl_0> thank u daveake
[22:18] <daveake> Afterwards, in the tracker folder, rm *.o and run make again, to link with the new wiringpi
[22:20] <fl_0> ok
[22:20] <fl_0> [x] done
[22:20] <fl_0> anything else?
[22:21] <fl_0> gpio: Unable to load/unload modules as this Pi has the device tree enabled.
[22:21] <fl_0> You need to run the raspi-config program (as root) and select the
[22:21] <fl_0> modules (SPI or I2C) that you wish to load/unload there and reboot.
[22:21] <fl_0> There is more information here:
[22:21] <fl_0> https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=97314
[22:21] <fl_0> SDA/SCL = 2/3
[22:21] <fl_0> V2.4 or later board with I2C ADC
[22:21] <fl_0> Error writing to i2c slave
[22:21] <fl_0> hmmmm
[22:22] <daveake> enable i2c in raspi-config
[22:23] <fl_0> "Would you like the I2C kernel module to be loaded by default?"
[22:23] <fl_0> Yes, I guess?
[22:23] <daveake> yes
[22:24] <fl_0> ok
[22:24] <fl_0> will try a reboot then
[22:24] <daveake> yes it tells you to
[22:25] <fl_0> still the same issue .....
[22:25] <SpeedEvil> chris_99: a mixer doesn't quite work, you get sum, and difference freqs
[22:25] <fl_0> would like to bite the wooden table :)
[22:25] <chris_99> yeah i was thinking you could filter for only the difference
[22:26] <daveake> which pits board? any other boards?
[22:26] <fl_0> pits and the aprs tx board on top
[22:26] <fl_0> pits V2.4
[22:29] <daveake> hmmm can't think of any reason it shouldn't just work. Plenty of systems, including mine here and Upu's, running latest code on 2.4 with no issues.
[22:30] <daveake> Not running 2 copies of the tracker are you?
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[22:32] <daveake> probably worth disabling aprs for now just to eliminate that
[22:33] <fl_0> disable = remove board?
[22:33] <daveake> disable in pisky.txt
[22:33] <daveake> then sudo killall tracker
[22:33] <daveake> then cd ~/pits/tracker
[22:33] <daveake> and sudo ./tracker
[22:39] <fl_0> <fl_0> gpio: Unable to load/unload modules as this Pi has the device tree enabled.
[22:39] <fl_0> still this -^ message
[22:39] <fl_0> hhmmmmm
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[22:40] <daveake> yes that message is expected and, as I said, is of no consequence
[22:41] <daveake> Next version checks for devicetree and avoids trying to load the module, so the message doesn't appear
[22:42] <fl_0> ahokay
[22:42] <fl_0> thought that was an issue
[22:42] <fl_0> sorry
[22:42] <fl_0> so maybe the cam module is broken ....
[22:43] <daveake> Is the tracker starting OK, and sending RTTY ?
[22:43] <Vaizki> hmm i2c is a kernel module? isn't it via device tree?
[22:43] <fl_0> yes indeed it does
[22:44] <Vaizki> not relevant to this issue, just curious
[22:44] <daveake> OK and is the take_pic_0 file being created ?
[22:44] <fl_0> nope
[22:44] <fl_0> in the tracker folder?
[22:44] <daveake> yes
[22:45] <fl_0> nope
[22:45] <fl_0> just take_pic
[22:45] <fl_0> a binary
[22:45] <daveake> Depending on your settings, it should get created every 1 minute or whatever
[22:45] <fl_0> ah mom
[22:45] <fl_0> the tracker should be running ...
[22:45] <fl_0> killed it :)
[22:45] <daveake> er yes
[22:46] <daveake> For various reasons (more flexible, allows image size to change with altitude, etc.) all images are requested by the tracker program
[22:47] <daveake> The camera script simply does what it's told do by the tracker
[22:47] <fl_0> okay
[22:47] <fl_0> can see the file
[22:47] <daveake> fine, so if the camera script is running then it'll see that file and attempt to take a picture
[22:47] <fl_0> okay
[22:47] <fl_0> and that failed
[22:48] <daveake> to test, I suggest you kill the camera script
[22:48] <fl_0> Running script take_pic_0 ...
[22:48] <fl_0> mmal: mmal_vc_component_create: failed to create component 'vc.ril.camera' (1:ENOMEM)
[22:48] <fl_0> mmal: mmal_component_create_core: could not create component 'vc.ril.camera' (1)
[22:48] <fl_0> mmal: Failed to create camera component
[22:48] <daveake> then wait for take_pic_0 to appear
[22:48] <fl_0> mmal: main: Failed to create camera component
[22:48] <fl_0> mmal: Camera is not detected. Please check carefully the camera module is installed correctly
[22:48] <daveake> ok so ...
[22:48] <fl_0> cam b0rken
[22:48] <fl_0> :(
[22:48] <Vaizki> or ribbon cable not seated properly
[22:48] <Vaizki> fiddly things those now and then
[22:48] <daveake> no camera or broken camera or broken cable or cable upside down at either end or not seated properly or not enabled in raspi-config
[22:49] <fl_0> it should. testet it on two RPis already
[22:49] <fl_0> ok, enabled camera again in raspi-config
[22:49] <fl_0> let's
[22:49] <fl_0> see
[22:49] <fl_0> (it was before)
[22:50] <daveake> you can just test manually with raspi-still
[22:50] <daveake> as this now is not a pits issue
[22:50] <fl_0> jepp
[22:50] <fl_0> i guess its a cam issue
[22:50] <fl_0> thank you for the support :)
[22:50] <daveake> np
[22:51] <fl_0> how is GPS connected on the board?
[22:51] <fl_0> via the serial interface=
[22:51] <fl_0> ?
[22:53] <fl_0> just wondering if that also has an issue or if its just bad RX here
[22:53] <fl_0> rainy outside apparently
[22:53] <daveake> software i2c
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[22:59] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03CHANGEME after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CHANGEME
[23:00] <Laurenceb> narrowband laser diodes are fun, I was recently reading a paper on optical frequency OFDM
[23:00] <Laurenceb> crazy bandwidth through cheap plastic fibres
[23:01] <fl_0> ok, that is my one
[23:01] <fl_0> :D
[23:01] <fl_0> GPS seems to work =)
[23:01] <Laurenceb> also fun - http://redlum.xohp.pagesperso-orange.fr/laser/ECDL.html
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[23:03] <daveake> changeme gets around
[23:11] <Vaizki> I need to get me a frequency counter up to 1GHz.. a 5385A would be "cheap", any opinions if it's worth a shot or should I shell out double the money for a 53131
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[23:22] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-11 after 0310 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-11
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[23:26] <fl_0> daveake: please allow one more question :)
[23:26] <daveake> Is it "can I buy 10 more pits?" ?
[23:26] <fl_0> do i need to add/change anything to receive data from the internal temp sensor?
[23:26] <fl_0> oh that would be good :)
[23:26] <fl_0> quite a bunch of $$$ then :)
[23:26] <daveake> yes you need to read the support site :p
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[23:27] <fl_0> okay
[23:27] <fl_0> will do
[23:27] <daveake> To enable the on-board DS18B20, plus (if you have one) an externally connected DS18B20, append "dtoverlay=w1-gpio" to /boot/config.txt, then reboot the Pi.
[23:27] <daveake> This is (another) device tree thing
[23:27] <fl_0> currently only the internal one
[23:27] <fl_0> ok
[23:28] <daveake> That text is on the Sense HAT page - that's the only reason I know of for enabling devicetree in the first place on a pits system
[23:28] <russss> wait, there's an onboard DS18B20?
[23:28] <fl_0> :)
[23:28] <daveake> yes
[23:28] <russss> learn something new every day
[23:29] <russss> oh wait, or are you talking about the PITS board?
[23:29] <russss> misunderstood.
[23:29] <daveake> hah yes
[23:29] <daveake> On the Pi you can easily read the GPU temperature
[23:29] <daveake> In either case the result is a lot higher than ambient
[23:29] <russss> I just got some RFM69W hat boards made up for ukhasnet
[23:30] <russss> and I stuck breakouts for a 18B20 on there because it was looking a bit too bare.
[23:30] <daveake> :)
[23:30] cm13g09 (~chrism@panther.cmtechserv.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[23:31] <Vaizki> the pits ds18b20 is a SMT version I guess?
[23:31] <Vaizki> so can't be taken off-board easily
[23:31] <fl_0> daveake: thanks again
[23:31] <fl_0> that works
[23:31] <daveake> yes smt but we have connections for an external device
[23:32] <fl_0> (altough I didn't find the page that says about dtoverlay=w1-gpio)
[23:32] <daveake> http://www.pi-in-the-sky.com/index.php?id=astro-pi-board
[23:32] <daveake> Why did you enable device tree ?
[23:33] <daveake> The recommendation is the opposite:
[23:33] <daveake> Advanced Options --> Disable devtree (unless you want to use an Astro Pi board, in which case leave this enabled)
[23:41] <Vaizki> I wonder if the ARM folk will stick with DT or if ACPI will come over and steal the show.. I guess it depends on if ARM-based high density enterprise servers really come about
[23:42] <Vaizki> redhat & co are going to tell HW vendors that "no, you can't have your own kernel in the RHEL distro just because your power management is different from the other guys"
[23:42] ballooon_ (4a43a276@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.67.162.118) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[23:43] <Vaizki> so ACPI would work much better for "servers" and boards like raspi.. but for the main (current) user group of mobile device manufacturers, they don't really give a damn and are "happy" with DT
[23:44] <Vaizki> (in a "the devil we know" mode of happiness)
[23:57] <Laurenceb> oh god device tree
[23:57] <dbrooke> well, device tree isn't just for linux and ARM, e.g. I've used it on a system booting RTEMS from U-boot
[23:57] <Laurenceb> one more reason I avoid embedded linux
[23:58] <dbrooke> on powerPC I should add
[00:00] --- Wed Dec 9 2015