highaltitude.log.20151207

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[01:15] <Laurenceb> http://www.seanbarton.org/PDF/aiaa_j_aircraft_submission.pdf
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[01:37] <Laurenceb> I dont quite get it
[01:37] <Laurenceb> seems very heavy
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[08:36] <patrik_> c'è qualche italiano esperto qui?
[08:37] <gonzo_> not whilst the train is standing in the station
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[10:48] <patrik__> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E92MUOnTws new world record
[10:49] <patrik__> i hope to see soon some real data mission
[10:50] <daveake> Yes, I'm interested in what there is
[10:50] <patrik__> dave maybe u can even try to ask in youtube
[10:51] <fsphil> that's a good altitude if verified
[10:51] <daveake> Last time I questioned a similar claim on youtube, it didn't go well :/
[10:51] <patrik__> anyway they use 3 kg balloon
[10:52] <eroomde> patrik__: lol
[10:52] <eroomde> what a load of bullshit
[10:52] <daveake> Yes, a 3kg Totex it looked like
[10:52] <chris_99> did the balloon have RTTY?
[10:52] <eroomde> that didn't get to 50km
[10:52] <patrik__> 1,7 kg
[10:53] <eroomde> this is like those mental mexicans all over again
[10:53] <patrik__> nope
[10:53] <patrik__> no rtty
[10:53] <patrik__> they say its illegal use radio in italy
[10:54] <chris_99> how did they track it?
[10:54] <patrik__> i dont know if its true
[10:54] <daveake> well, physics says it isnt
[10:55] <daveake> wrong balloon too heavy etc
[10:55] <daveake> gps logs or it didn't happen. which it didn't
[10:57] <eroomde> patrik__: it's not true, i'm willing to bet a lot of money
[10:57] <eroomde> it just doesn't add up at all
[10:58] <eroomde> i suspect they've just naively used a cheap pressure sensor and trusted it
[10:58] <Oddstr13> fourty nine and a half meter can hardly be called a world record, can it? :P
[10:58] <eroomde> which is what normally explains what has happened when people come out with total nonesense like these guys
[10:58] <fsphil> 40km for that payload weight and size of balloon, and a 1m/s ascent
[10:58] <fsphil> which I'm sure it wasn't
[10:59] <fsphil> 37km more likely
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[11:00] <eroomde> to further put it into perspective, the difference between 50km and 40km is about 3.5* in pressure
[11:00] <eroomde> so it's a great great deal harder to get to 50km than 40km
[11:00] <fsphil> hehe, I see the habhub predictor in that vid
[11:00] <eroomde> it's not a 25% error to hit 50 when calculated to 40, it's like a 100s of % error
[11:02] <Oddstr13> more likely to hit float then?
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[11:03] <Oddstr13> urgh, the editing on that vid makes me sick >.<
[11:04] <eroomde> Oddstr13: just burst at a much lower altitude
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[11:07] <patrik__> how can u say its burst much lower
[11:07] <patrik__> from video?
[11:07] <patrik__> or what
[11:08] <eroomde> patrik__: physics
[11:08] <eroomde> we can calculate how high they can go from first principles
[11:08] <eroomde> we know that any practical balloon/payload combination won't get anywhere near 49.5km
[11:08] <patrik__> but bellomondo
[11:08] <patrik__> with 1600 g
[11:08] <patrik__> go on 44000
[11:08] <eroomde> yes
[11:09] <patrik__> it's just 100 g more
[11:09] <eroomde> but 3kg with 1.7kg will not go to 49km
[11:09] <eroomde> patrik__: no, 1600g was the balloon weight
[11:09] <eroomde> the payload weight for bello mondo was tiny
[11:09] <eroomde> like <100g
[11:09] <patrik__> but bellomondo which balloon use
[11:09] <eroomde> 1.6kg
[11:10] <UpuWork> his payload was 40g and he used Hydrogen
[11:10] <UpuWork> as did pretty much the entire top 10
[11:10] <Ben-AstroSoc> 40g!?
[11:10] <eroomde> yes
[11:10] <Ben-AstroSoc> that's impressive
[11:10] <eroomde> Ben-AstroSoc: it's perfectly possible if you just design you own small pcb powered from a single AA
[11:10] <Ben-AstroSoc> did it have a camer aon it?
[11:10] <eroomde> it's par for the course
[11:10] <eroomde> no
[11:10] <UpuWork> yup mine was 27g :)
[11:10] <Ben-AstroSoc> ah
[11:11] <Ben-AstroSoc> what sort of casing did it use?
[11:11] <UpuWork> lol
[11:11] <UpuWork> case what ?
[11:11] <eroomde> probably norhing, or a bit of foil, or something
[11:11] <Ben-AstroSoc> lel
[11:11] <eroomde> a bit of heatshrink. they don't really need anything
[11:12] <UpuWork> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/Images/PAVA/IMG_1260.JPG
[11:12] <UpuWork> that was a porker
[11:12] <UpuWork> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/Images/PAVA8/IMG_1488.JPG
[11:12] <eroomde> Ben-AstroSoc: this is why some people huff if you start talking about 1-2kg gliders
[11:13] <eroomde> it's big compared to the experience of what a number of people here fly
[11:13] <eroomde> that's not to say it's unreasonable for a glider - i don't think it is
[11:14] <Ben-AstroSoc> i thought 1-1.5kg was often used as the baseline for peak altitude calculations
[11:14] <UpuWork> hell no
[11:14] <Ben-AstroSoc> unless im misunderstandign the site that calculated it
[11:14] <UpuWork> 50g or less
[11:15] <UpuWork> which is why we are always a little skeptical when people claim 49.5km with 1.5kg of payload and Helium and "a big balloon"
[11:15] <eroomde> lighter the better for max altitude
[11:15] <Oddstr13> http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/%28Gh%29/guides/mtr/prs/hght.rxml
[11:15] <eroomde> UpuWork is being polite - the italian claim is weapons-grade confused bollocks
[11:15] <UpuWork> well at least they are talking to us
[11:15] <Ben-AstroSoc> if you guys manage 50g with all electronics we'll probably land 750g full payload - much less for first flight cos no wings
[11:16] <UpuWork> the Mexicans just spat their dummy out and refused to accept what we were saying and got all shouty
[11:17] <eroomde> Ben-AstroSoc: yep, though consider the performance of the glider as you scale down
[11:17] <eroomde> cube/square law and airpseed and so on
[11:17] <eroomde> but i think 1kg is a perfectly fine ballpark for a glider
[11:17] <eroomde> to put it into perspective, there have also been a large number of flights in the 2-3kg range
[11:17] <Ben-AstroSoc> ye, i'll wokr through most of that when we get closer to the glider flight
[11:17] <Oddstr13> well, there are human-sized gliders, so...
[11:17] <Ben-AstroSoc> i ]plan on doing extensive air trials before i fly it off a balloon
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[11:18] <eroomde> it's just discouraged a bit nowadays because as it's all got more 'accessible' it also means people who shouldn't be launching 3kg of stuff are coming along wanting to launch stuff
[11:18] <eroomde> but to do useful science with various sensors and things, you often suddenly find yourself into the kg ranges
[11:18] <Ben-AstroSoc> yeah i understand
[11:18] <Ben-AstroSoc> the glider will probably have science payload to minimum, gonna try and do most of that in the first flight (no wings)
[11:19] <eroomde> you'll have enough fun just controlling it i think :)
[11:19] <Ben-AstroSoc> possibly
[11:20] <Ben-AstroSoc> have a few months to hash out something that works (don't forget only gliding ~5km up)
[11:21] <Ben-AstroSoc> if it comes to it we'll consider putting a motor on it - i know for a fact it flies stable as hell under power and CotS autopilots don't tend to have huge issues with stable airframes - so we'll see how it handles
[11:22] <patrik__> so no new record for you?
[11:22] <eroomde> no
[11:26] <patrik__> i would like to see data log
[11:26] <patrik__> i already ask many time
[11:26] <patrik__> but nothing
[11:26] <patrik__> :P
[11:27] <daveake> I suspect they have no log
[11:27] <patrik__> they have
[11:27] <daveake> No GPS log I mean
[11:27] <fsphil> they show 49km/h at one point, but quite variable as it swings. it smells of ardupilot :)
[11:27] <patrik__> but i think something doesnt work in the busrte time
[11:28] <fsphil> if that thing really was rising a 11m/s there's no way they got even to 30km
[11:28] <patrik__> in the official video there is not anymore altitude in the right bottom
[11:28] <Ben-AstroSoc> does anyone have a link to the flight they did? missed the start of the discussion
[11:28] <eroomde> the mexicans were ardupilot right?
[11:28] <fsphil> yeah
[11:28] <eroomde> facepalm
[11:28] <fsphil> and it had the weird ascent rate too
[11:29] <fsphil> oh, 80km/h at 21km
[11:29] <fsphil> lol
[11:29] <fsphil> I bet they calculated ascent rate, but used the ground speed instead
[11:30] <fsphil> 146km/h, yeah that's ground speed
[11:30] <daveake> patrik_ The last time someone claimed a very high altitude with a large payload, they used ardupilot for the position/altitude. Ardupilot uses a pressure sensor to calculate altitude. Common pressure sensors do not provide an accurate pressure at high altitudes. Also the ardupilot pressure-altitude model is only accurate up to about 2km. The result is that the reported altitude is very, very wrong.
[11:31] <fsphil> anyway, all useless without proper data
[11:31] <daveake> Ardupilot can be configured to use GPS altitude instead, but the default setting is that it uses pressure *only*.
[11:31] <fsphil> I wish it where true, it would be an excellent result
[11:33] <kokey> Ben-AstroSoc: I'm always interested in following projects with gliders or steerable parachutes
[11:33] <Ben-AstroSoc> we have a faceebook page we're posting updates on when we have them
[11:33] <Ben-AstroSoc> http://www.facebook.com/astonastrosoc
[11:33] <fsphil> gliders are cool
[11:34] <Ben-AstroSoc> i mean what little technical background i have is in autonomous flight so
[11:34] <eroomde> gliders seem like the natural frontier of hab for me
[11:35] <eroomde> tho chasing is fun, being able to have stuff come down in controlled safe spaces reliable would be a huge win
[11:35] <daveake> yup
[11:35] <Ben-AstroSoc> i'm honestly surprised more people haven't tried it
[11:35] <daveake> CAA
[11:36] <Ben-AstroSoc> even in the US
[11:36] <daveake> I asked; no reply yet
[11:36] <kokey> personally I think steerable parachutes would be great, because once they've flown to the target coordinates you can probably just put them into a spin and they won't need as soft a landing as a glider
[11:36] <Ben-AstroSoc> the closest i've seen is somoene in sweden (iirc) manually flying one down using fpv
[11:36] <fsphil> soft landing would gain many many hab points
[11:36] <fsphil> on a pre-defined runway
[11:36] <Ben-AstroSoc> you can make softlanding work reliably on a glider, just need one extra sensor
[11:36] Action: SpeedEvil is annoyed that the CAA doesn't properly define a kite.
[11:37] <kokey> yeah I suppose with all the nice uav stuff around landing at a predefined platform is becoming much more feasible
[11:37] <eroomde> Ben-AstroSoc: will follow the fb page
[11:37] <eroomde> i think Nasa legal might have something to say about your logo :p
[11:37] <Ben-AstroSoc> possibly xD
[11:38] <eroomde> fsphil: i've always thought i'd solve that with a little parachute mortar
[11:38] <Ben-AstroSoc> eh it's just something i bodged together, needs a proper redesign anyway
[11:38] <eroomde> i like the whiteboard too
[11:38] <eroomde> i have confidence in this now
[11:38] <eroomde> you can whiteboard properly
[11:38] <daveake> :)
[11:38] <fsphil> haha
[11:38] <eroomde> when some photographers came to do an article on work, they homes straight in on the whiteboard
[11:38] <eroomde> i didn't really understand but they were enthusiastic about how it looked like science
[11:39] <Ben-AstroSoc> whiteboarding is the fun bit
[11:39] <fsphil> they like a dso showing a sine wave
[11:39] <eroomde> yes
[11:39] <eroomde> and a bunsen burder with a sooty dancing flame
[11:41] <kokey> always keep some dry ice around too
[11:42] <Ben-AstroSoc> one of our lab technicians blows up capacitors when people come round
[11:42] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: It's a damn shame that there is no real legitimate use for jacobs ladders in science
[11:42] <eroomde> you're very right
[11:42] <eroomde> maybe upsetting your colleagues EMI sensitive experiment?
[11:43] <kokey> a pwm modulated tesla coil too, if you really want to wake them up
[11:43] <craag> does a jacobs ladder sweep the emi?
[11:43] <eroomde> i've actually just taken out all the ethernet cable from the electronics lab
[11:43] <eroomde> replacing it with shielded
[11:43] <eroomde> just to make the room quieter
[11:43] <craag> changing in freq as it moves up I wonder?
[11:43] <fsphil> I got a reel of shielded cat5 for the new house
[11:43] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXD_pYBJ8FE
[11:43] <craag> +1 for shielded ethernet
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> ^12kv/30mA sign transformer
[11:44] <craag> now moving to metal-case switches, as the noise now comes off the switch/router boards themselves
[11:44] <eroomde> lol
[11:44] <fsphil> I need a nice cheap shielded patch panel
[11:44] <kokey> we stayed in a house last year, which had shielded cat5 to at least one plug in every room, from the utility room
[11:44] <eroomde> that's nice
[11:44] <eroomde> i am not really bothering at home though because i live in a terraced house
[11:45] <kokey> the house was the personal house builder, he obviously figured he wanted to take no chances
[11:45] <eroomde> so i can't really stop stuff coming through the walls
[11:45] <craag> my student flat has shielded cat6 to every room, from the kitchen
[11:45] <Ben-AstroSoc> ^ damn
[11:45] <kokey> it also had a double electrical socket almost every 1-2 meters
[11:45] <craag> hadn't been used in the 4 years since it was put in...
[11:45] <Ben-AstroSoc> my student accommodation had awful internet ocnnection
[11:45] <kokey> like on the kitchen counter there were 8 pairs of electrical outlets
[11:45] <craag> but is in use now :D
[11:45] <craag> (it wasn't crimped)
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[11:45] <fsphil> I've been using wifi-only for a few months now. no fun
[11:45] <kokey> I mean the house was the family house of a house builder
[11:46] <craag> Yeah we miss out on plug sockets
[11:46] <fsphil> if I ever build a house (I can dream) it will have network points at every corner :)
[11:46] <craag> 2x double gang per room
[11:46] <daveake> One of my neighbours is a painter/decorator. He fitted out his own house use foil-backed insulation under floors, in walls (including internal ones) and ceilings. He asked me to help fix his wifi ...
[11:46] <craag> only single ethernet port in each room too
[11:46] <kokey> daveake: haha
[11:46] <Geoff-G8-> Still won't be sufficent, need a switch in every corner!
[11:46] <SM0ULC-Reb> There's an ISO-standard for flat/home-LAN :)
[11:46] <eroomde> is there?
[11:46] <craag> and no ethernet port in cupboard under the stairs :(
[11:47] <eroomde> craag: that's annoying as that's exactly where you'd want to put it, i'd have thought
[11:47] <eroomde> switch etc
[11:47] <craag> ikr
[11:47] <SM0ULC-Reb> Think it is a double patch for every 3.75 m
[11:47] <craag> but no
[11:47] <kokey> daveake: strange thing is thatt house, the wifi signal got nowhere, I had to install range extenders all over the place
[11:47] <craag> cables come out of the wall above the kitchen sink lol
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[11:48] <Ben-AstroSoc> a'ight i have everything ready for my interview tomorrow
[11:48] <SM0ULC-Reb> eroomde: yeah, did some choosing between cat6a shilded/unshielded som year ago and got in touch with whatever the number was :)
[11:48] <kokey> this house with all the cat5 I stayed in, the cables all routed to the top of the cupboard in the utility room, it had tons of space for all sorts of gear
[11:49] <SM0ULC-Reb> eroomde: heavy battle systimax vs amp about shield or not to shield.. :)
[11:50] <kokey> in cape town I found that offices have massively oversubscribed connectivity at their offices, and then they go about blaming the speed problems on their wifi
[11:50] <kokey> so they buy more wifi kit, and them someone decides to add an amplifier to it, because you know regulations are for wussies
[11:50] <kokey> then the wifi booster wars start
[11:50] <SM0ULC-Reb> :)
[11:52] <fsphil> more power is always the solution
[11:52] <SM0ULC-Reb> I've been bulding WLANs for about 15 years and the major thing you have to teach people about is the massive bandwith with cables...
[11:53] <x-f> https://what-if.xkcd.com/imgs/a/13/laser_pointer_more_power.png
[11:53] <fsphil> less power more access points
[11:53] <eroomde> that is the nice thing about where i work
[11:53] <eroomde> no such problems
[11:53] <eroomde> surrounded by acres and acres of field in all directions
[11:53] <SpeedEvil> SM0ULC-Reb: And that cable isn';t a shared medium
[11:53] <SpeedEvil> SM0ULC-Reb: See also 'capped mobile violates my rights'
[11:54] <fsphil> youtube is a basic human right
[11:55] <SM0ULC-Reb> SpeedEvil: exactly. been installing these cat5-networks for about 6 years now... 2x10Gbit per cable... pretty hard to do anything close with wifi.. but some people thinks the rf-sapce is unlimited
[11:55] <kokey> I think people also just don't plan their wifi capacity right
[11:55] <SM0ULC-Reb> s/cat5/cat6a
[11:55] <eroomde> i would like to drop a cat6 from my study down to where my broadband comes in through the wall
[11:56] <eroomde> but it might be a bit destructive
[11:56] <eroomde> and i'd like to avoid destructing things
[11:56] <kokey> I've worked at many places where the wifi in the office was always fine, strangely that's usually when it's been put in place by an experienced network team and the access points are usually cisco
[11:56] <fsphil> it is unlimited :)
[11:56] <fsphil> though you might have other issues by the time you get up to gamma rays
[11:56] <craag> the new cisco aps at the uni give impressive throughput
[11:57] <craag> even for crowded lecture theatres
[11:57] <Ben-AstroSoc> our uni wifi is surprisingly not-awful
[11:57] <Ben-AstroSoc> it does kick my phone off it all the time though
[11:58] <craag> heh main problem at soton atm is lack of v4 addresses, so they've had to start NATing some of the campus
[11:58] <fsphil> we've got some dell dual-band APs here, and they're alright
[11:58] <craag> hence you can't roam as nicely
[11:58] <kokey> craag: they're using 192.168.x ?
[11:59] <craag> 10.x iirc
[11:59] <fsphil> still running a linksys at home. surprisingly it hasn't died yet
[11:59] <SM0ULC-Reb> craag: it's sad but "normal" these days. old pretty streched v4-networks and then suddenly a demand for 3-4x addresses per user.. not so easy to solve
[11:59] <fsphil> ipv6 is slowly getting there
[11:59] <craag> there's an experimental v6-only network which actually works rather well
[12:00] <craag> but my understanding is that it's quite router-cpu intensive
[12:00] <eroomde> craag: could you re-link me to your wifi/router brain dump wiki page?
[12:00] <kokey> but with 10.x you have like 16 million IPs or so?
[12:00] <fsphil> the place I work has a very non-technical customer base. and some of them are on ipv6 now
[12:00] <craag> eroomde: https://philcrump.co.uk/Networking_Devices
[12:00] <eroomde> ta
[12:00] <craag> kokey: Originally they handed everyone a public IP
[12:00] <craag> the uni has a massive range
[12:00] <fsphil> personal wiki. nice craag :)
[12:00] <kokey> tho if you can find an excuse to go ipv6 early then you'll probably thank yourself in the future
[12:00] <kokey> craag: ah yes, university networks
[12:00] <kokey> amazing things those
[12:01] <SM0ULC-Reb> craag: they run NAT64 maybe?
[12:01] <kokey> like it used to consist on a string of unix servers tied together with coax ethernet and public IP addresses
[12:01] <kokey> they could sniff each other's traffic
[12:01] <Oddstr13> I recently bought 2x Archer C7 wifi routers, hoping to get roaming and stuff working nice with openwrt
[12:01] <craag> SM0ULC-Reb: 464XLAT (using NAT64)
[12:02] <Oddstr13> need more coverage for uninterrupted skype while walking between the buildings on the farm! :P
[12:02] <SM0ULC-Reb> craag: ah
[12:02] <craag> Oddstr13: I use a C7 with openwrt as our main home router (above the kitchen sink), rock stable, no problems at all.
[12:03] <fsphil> seen some archer C2's in tesco recently, but they don't seem to be openwrt-able
[12:04] <Oddstr13> craag: yea, not sure how I'll go about setting up roaming yet tho
[12:06] <craag> Unfortunately I've only found a couple of abandoned projects to do proper roaming on openwrt. Easiest thing is just to set same SSID and let the client switch.
[12:07] <Oddstr13> got them for 690 NOK each on black friday (~54£), so I think I got a great price
[12:07] <craag> hah yes I pad £85
[12:07] <craag> *paid
[12:07] <Oddstr13> v1 or v2?
[12:08] <Oddstr13> I got the v2
[12:08] <craag> v2
[12:08] <craag> v1 isn't openwrt-able on 5ghz
[12:08] <Oddstr13> might want to specify that on the wiki
[12:08] <craag> v1 shouldn't be available now..
[12:08] <craag> but will do
[12:09] <Oddstr13> v2 is implied by the flash size, but still
[12:09] <craag> main change was the atheros 5ghz card in the v1 didn't talk to broadcom client cards
[12:10] <craag> :P
[12:10] <fl_0> does the PitS software have a kind of demo mode?
[12:11] <fl_0> cannot achieve any GPS lock inside the house :(
[12:11] <jonsowman> im hoping my wdr3600 does well :)
[12:11] <Oddstr13> but, yes, I was planning to just set up all the accesspoints with the same SSID/pw/crypto, and then have them in bridge mode
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[12:11] <jonsowman> haven't had time to set it up
[12:11] <eroomde> fl_0: go near a window
[12:11] <eroomde> demo mode sounds like a recipe for disaster
[12:11] <Ben-AstroSoc> fl_0: you'll have to brave... /outside/
[12:12] <eroomde> 'OH GOD I JUST LET GO OF THE PAYLOAD BUT I LEFT IT IN DEMO MODE OH GOD'
[12:12] <fl_0> eroomde: didn't work
[12:12] <eroomde> i don't like state
[12:12] <craag> Oddstr13: Don't use wifi repeater mode if you can avoid it
[12:12] <fl_0> eroomde: sure but that is PEBCAK
[12:12] <fl_0> :D
[12:12] <craag> Run a cable to each one and just configure as AP
[12:12] <fl_0> Ben-AstroSoc: that is what i wanted to avoid
[12:12] <fl_0> :)
[12:12] <Oddstr13> craag: might need to do that on one of them to get the coverage I want
[12:12] <daveake> It does/did have a playback function
[12:13] <Oddstr13> no ethernet cable to the barn :P
[12:13] <daveake> Where you can hand it an NMEA file
[12:13] <craag> Oddstr13: ... yet ;)
[12:13] <craag> But yeah ok
[12:13] <daveake> Or get a GPS repeater
[12:13] <Oddstr13> well, won't get a ethernet cable there before summer again, so yea
[12:13] <craag> of course as the AP has 2 radios, you could bridge over 5ghz, and use coverage on 2.4
[12:13] <Oddstr13> yep
[12:13] <craag> without wasting bandwidth
[12:14] <craag> :)
[12:14] <Oddstr13> I actually set it up to bridge over 2.4 just to test some currently
[12:14] <fl_0> daveake: how is that activated?
[12:14] <fl_0> is there any docu about it?
[12:16] <Oddstr13> craag: that is assuming I can get a bridge going on 5GHz tho
[12:16] <daveake> It's not in the current release
[12:17] <daveake> Not sure if it ever got released, or I just used it here. It won't get added back in as the code no longer uses NMEA.
[12:17] <craag> Oddstr13: Any reason why not?
[12:17] <Oddstr13> ac @ 5GHz has a lot worse range than N on 2.4, due to walls
[12:17] <craag> Ok, note that the external antennas are 5ghz, 2.4ghz ones are internal
[12:18] <craag> so I've found range to be roughly similar despite walls
[12:18] <Oddstr13> heh
[12:18] <Oddstr13> might need to poke the settings some more then
[12:18] <Oddstr13> I've adjusted power on one of them, can't remember if that was 2.4 or 5
[12:19] <fl_0> daveake: kk
[12:20] <fl_0> a pity =)
[12:21] <daveake> Just spend £10 on a GPS repeater on ebay
[12:22] <Ben-AstroSoc> at risk of asking a really stupid question
[12:22] <Ben-AstroSoc> what does that do?
[12:22] <daveake> See those words GPS and repeater? :p
[12:23] <Ben-AstroSoc> yeaah, but GPS is broadcast from orbit.. having a beacon in your office doesn't soundlike it'd be terribly helpful
[12:23] <daveake> It's basically 2 GPS aentennae back-to-back, with an amplifier
[12:24] <daveake> So you stick the rx antenna outside, or at a window, and the other end at your desk
[12:24] <Ben-AstroSoc> right
[12:24] <Ben-AstroSoc> does that not end up introducing signal delay?
[12:25] <Oddstr13> that sounds like a terrible idea if you ask me ._.
[12:26] <mattbrejza> itll mean the time on your gps module is a few ns out, but the position will be the same
[12:26] <daveake> And why a terrible idea?
[12:26] <Ben-AstroSoc> surely if the time is out your position will be too
[12:26] <daveake> by metres. do you care ?
[12:26] <gonzo_> it means ythat your position will be at the rx ant and your time will be a ns or so out
[12:26] <dbrooke> position will be of the antenna, not the module
[12:27] <Ben-AstroSoc> depends what i'd be doing with it
[12:27] <daveake> GPS has metres of error anyway
[12:27] <dbrooke> sounds illegal though to tx on GPS frequencies
[12:27] <mattbrejza> (yea sorry, same as at repeat rx antenna not same as without repeater)
[12:27] <craag> Don't fly a drone on the end of a repeater lol
[12:27] <craag> but for testing it's fine
[12:27] <daveake> illegal sure. however the signal level is very very low
[12:28] <mattbrejza> isnt it fine if its so weak that it doesnt leave your house?
[12:28] <gonzo_> nope, now legal to repeat gps. But with approved kit and a licence
[12:28] <mattbrejza> eg those FM transmitters
[12:28] <daveake> 1m from the tx end is a lower signal level than I see outside in clear air
[12:28] <dbrooke> some friends of mine received a government grant for indoor GPS (which gave real position) but were then denied a license by Ofcom
[12:28] <daveake> yeah I doubt this cheap things are approved
[12:30] <gonzo_> if bad kit of bad install, it can oscillate and jam the freq. The licence is so ofcom know where the repeaters are anbd can investigate jamming reports
[12:30] <gonzo_> but some faulty antennas can oscoillate
[12:30] <gonzo_> there have even been cases of unstable tv antenna amps and set top boxes jamming gps
[12:31] <Oddstr13> yay, package from Sparkfun *and* Adafruit!
[12:31] <Oddstr13> feels like xmas came early :3
[12:31] <dbrooke> gonzo_: sounds more recent, when my friends enquired they couldn't get a licence at all, which was ironic as they'd received government funding to develop it
[12:31] <Ben-AstroSoc> im' still trying to get my hands on a pi zero
[12:31] <daveake> I have 3 :/
[12:31] <gonzo_> (there was a marina that was noted as being a gps 'not-spot'. for years. Was traced to an amplified TV antenna in a key side cabin. Unconnected and forgotten, but powered)
[12:33] <gonzo_> I expect that a gps beacon could be simple to do as it could just be a fixed, pre-spread code. As long as you don't want time to be live)
[12:33] <gonzo_> record gps at that location anjd just play it back
[12:34] <gonzo_> (record in IQ)
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[12:34] <Vaizki> there are lots of those gps repeaters around in restricted use
[12:35] <gonzo_> but a repeater would do the same job and be cheap
[12:35] <gonzo_> we had one at work, till I pointed out it was not legal
[12:36] <Vaizki> I know they are used extensively in police, fire department etc garages so that vehicles don't fly out into the world without lock
[12:36] <gonzo_> though a company sold and installed it. And they didn't know that. They just order and fit them
[12:36] <Vaizki> also gps doesn't lock at high speed (at all), not the basic gps units at least
[12:36] <craag> 'high speed'?
[12:37] <gonzo_> we were going to fit them at bus depots, so the bus could get locvk after starting up in the morning before going out of the garage. I think I upset people by pointing out the legalities. They would have prefered ignornace
[12:37] <Vaizki> as in 100km/h I can't get most of my basic GPS to lock
[12:37] <Vaizki> if they cold start
[12:38] <craag> hmm, ublox seem to have been fine with that in the jet stream.
[12:38] <Vaizki> if they have valid calendar and ephemeris data it's not a problem.. or a-gps
[12:38] <Vaizki> really? hmm
[12:38] <gonzo_> I expect if you did a fixed speed in one direction it would be able to get basic lock/data
[12:38] <craag> I've also locked a max6 from cold on a plane :D
[12:39] <gonzo_> I assumed cold start was always sand backup batt
[12:39] <gonzo_> sans
[12:39] <craag> I do admit my old car gps (mio?) used to lock far faster if I sat still until it did
[12:39] <Vaizki> well I remember at least 2 occasions where I've cold started a GPS on a motorway and had to pull to a rest stop for a lock
[12:39] <Vaizki> in germany
[12:39] <Vaizki> admittedly I only gave it about 20 minutes before giving up
[12:40] <craag> meh, ublox ftw I guess :P
[12:40] <gonzo_> older gps could onl;y handle limited chans. And reflections etc seemed to cause them more of a prob than just limited sky. Wonder if on roads that is(was) more of an issue
[12:40] <Vaizki> gonzo you mean multipath propagation?
[12:41] <gonzo_> I've had ublocks take 20mins to lock, in an open field
[12:41] <gonzo_> yep, the rx seeing reflections of the sats. And I assume the chans limuit was the number of spread offsets thay could follow
[12:41] <Ben-AstroSoc> how easy is it to set up a microcontroller to decode ublox, out of interest
[12:42] <Ben-AstroSoc> i havent looked at the datasheet for it yet
[12:42] <gonzo_> using the NMEA data>
[12:42] <gonzo_> they stream NMEA by default at power up. You need to talk binary to change to flight mode
[12:42] <Ben-AstroSoc> right
[12:42] <Vaizki> ubx is even simpler than NMEA if you ask me
[12:42] <zyp> I'd say that writing an UBX parser is probably simpler than writing a NMEA parser
[12:43] <zyp> since string handling on a microcontroller is kind of a pain
[12:43] <gonzo_> I didn't look as I already had the NMEA parser
[12:43] <Vaizki> UBX is fixed length binary payload so just read it into memory, cast it into a struct and you have the data
[12:43] <Ben-AstroSoc> i'm expecting decoding the gps data to be the hardest bit for our build so
[12:43] <daveake> Yeah that was my position too. Eventually (last month) I got round to replacing my NMEA code with UBX
[12:43] <gonzo_> and my tracket just finds the nmea fields and blindly cats them into an rtty string
[12:43] <Vaizki> also you can handle just one UBX message to get everything
[12:44] <Ben-AstroSoc> whats the difference between ubx and nmea?
[12:44] <daveake> hmmm really?
[12:44] <Vaizki> ubx is all binary
[12:44] <gonzo_> (ok, bot an actual cat, my uproc does not have enough flash for that!)
[12:44] <Ben-AstroSoc> whereas nmea is
[12:44] <daveake> The position response has GPS time not UBX time
[12:45] <daveake> Also (unless I missed it) no single response has lat, long, alt and sats
[12:45] <Vaizki> Ben-AstroSoc, variable length ASCII that you have to parse for numbers etc if you want to do something else than retransmit
[12:45] <gonzo_> nmea is ascii strings comma deleimited
[12:45] <Ben-AstroSoc> right
[12:45] <Ben-AstroSoc> i'll go find a suitable unit and pull up the datasheets for it
[12:47] <Ben-AstroSoc> is there a certain ublox module that most people tend to use?
[12:47] <Vaizki> daveake, 21.16.9 UBX-NAV-PVT (0x01 0x07)
[12:47] <Vaizki> has UTC time, lat, long, altitude, sats, fix quality, DOPs
[12:48] <craag> Ben-AstroSoc: ublox M8, then select variant according to Vcc
[12:48] <Ben-AstroSoc> thanks
[12:48] <craag> 1.8V version doesn't have tcxo
[12:48] <Ben-AstroSoc> we'll be using more than that i imagine
[12:48] <daveake> GPS time not IUTX time Vaizki
[12:49] <daveake> oh ok separate values too
[12:49] <Vaizki> not sure what you mean?
[12:49] <daveake> cool, I may now simplify my code a tad :)
[12:49] <craag> Ben-AstroSoc: http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=59_60
[12:49] <daveake> IUTX was a typo
[12:50] <cm13g09> craag: ping
[12:50] <Ben-AstroSoc> cheers craag
[12:50] <craag> cm13g09: pong
[12:50] <Vaizki> NAV-PVT is pretty big though at 92 bytes
[12:50] <daveake> What I mean is: the U4 time value is GPS time (which is out from UTC time by a few seconds). However since it also includes hours/mins/secs as separate values, then UTC is available
[12:51] <Vaizki> ah ok got it
[12:51] <daveake> Yeah 92 is a lot
[12:51] <Vaizki> but I use polling so I only get one when I want one
[12:51] <daveake> Yes, sure, but RAM space is often at a premium
[12:52] <Ben-AstroSoc> those antenna look a lot different to the ones i've put on a quad
[12:52] <Ben-AstroSoc> i guess different type
[12:52] <craag> Ben-AstroSoc: You've likely used the square patch antennas before?
[12:52] <Ben-AstroSoc> yeah
[12:53] <craag> These antennas are a bit more isotropic, and so work 'ok' upside down
[12:53] <Ben-AstroSoc> ah, ok
[12:53] <craag> rather important in habs
[12:53] <craag> and gain is not really an issue once you're off the ground
[12:53] <Ben-AstroSoc> yeah
[12:53] <craag> as there's no obstructions
[12:53] <Vaizki> I have a M8Q with the quad-v, it's by far the best GPS I have ever seen
[12:53] <Ben-AstroSoc> i have to run for a bit, will be around later
[12:53] <craag> try a sarantel sometime Vaizki ;)
[12:54] <Vaizki> yes, as said, best I have seen :)
[12:54] <Vaizki> well I have a DGPS unit in my boat, that doesn't really count though :)
[12:54] <craag> hah
[12:54] <Vaizki> that thing cold starts like a champion
[12:57] <Vaizki> well, to be honest the modern WAAS/EGNOS units with 12 channels and battery backup are so good that DGPS is not something a recreational boater would need any more
[13:01] <SM0ULC-Reb> Vaizki: the accuracy on the seacharts are usually worse.. :)
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[13:30] <Vaizki> SM0ULC-Reb, but it helps you in finding your way back to the wreck that you found ;)
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[13:44] <ballooon> does anyone know where to get evoh nylon?
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[13:52] <gonzo_> he was in a rush
[14:13] <Flutterbat> Vaizki: does dgps even work properly for boating? / Do that many correction signals/towers exist?
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[14:31] <patrik__> someone know if in itally can use rtty
[14:31] <patrik__> ?
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[14:39] <daveake> RTTY is unlikely to be illegal anywhere
[14:39] <daveake> Correct question would be "Is radio comms allowed from a balloon above Italy?"
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[14:44] <mfa298> or "What types of radio comms are allowed from a balloon above Italy?"
[14:45] <daveake> yes even better :p
[14:45] <daveake> Not that I know the answer to either :)
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[14:50] <mfa298> totally unrelated, but possibly of interest to some: Free eBooks https://www.packtpub.com/packt/offers/free-learning
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[14:54] <gonzo_> if you have a link with free beer, would be even better!
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[14:55] <gonzo_> (there was a 'free beer', it was an open source gpl beer. You still paid for the deliverables, not the IP)
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[15:08] <Vaizki> Flutterbat, they do here on the Baltic Sea
[15:12] <Vaizki> Flutterbat, http://www.effective-solutions.co.uk/beacons.html
[15:14] <Vaizki> and you only need one of them in range to benefit from d-gps.. though the further away it is, the less it will help. for me the closest d-gps beacon (0536) is so close that it gives very very good correction data
[15:16] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: I do hope it came with full sequences for all the plants and organisms used.
[15:17] <Vaizki> just measured it, 59km from my boat dock to the d-gps beacon
[15:23] <SM0ULC-Reb> Vaizki: what GPS are you running with dgps?`
[15:24] <Vaizki> simrad cr40 :)
[15:31] <patrik__> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E92MUOnTws
[15:33] <Ben-AstroSoc> that th ing looks really heavy
[15:33] <Ben-AstroSoc> what size balloon did they use?
[15:33] <Flutterbat> Vaizki: interesting. the receiver uses them like normal satellites?
[15:34] <patrik__> 3 kg
[15:35] <patrik__> but everyone here say they cannot have that altitude
[15:35] <patrik__> strange no one comment video on youtube
[15:36] <patrik__> even bellomondo owner
[15:36] <daveake> He probably doesn't know
[15:36] <daveake> Like I said, last time someone made a claim like this, I did comment on the youtube video. That didn't go well.
[15:36] <Ben-AstroSoc> i mean burst calculator doesnt put you within 10km
[15:37] <patrik__> he come from uk right?
[15:37] <daveake> who?
[15:37] <mattbrejza> have you got any telemetry or anything else from the team yet?
[15:37] <patrik__> bellomondo
[15:37] <daveake> UK yes
[15:38] <eroomde> patrik__: he probably has better things to do that spend all his time on the internet worrying about confused italians
[15:38] <eroomde> to do than*
[15:39] <patrik__> but someone ahve to told them that are wrong
[15:39] <patrik__> all mass media talk about that
[15:39] <daveake> You are in touch with them?
[15:39] <patrik__> yes
[15:39] <patrik__> but they dont give me any data
[15:40] <eroomde> i've not seen them mentioned in the uk apart from on here
[15:40] <patrik__> and they still say that everyone are only jelous
[15:40] <eroomde> (so no mass media here)
[15:40] <daveake> Well there, that's how it went with the Mexicans
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[15:41] <Vaizki> Flutterbat, no.. it just gets correction data for atmospheric disturbances etc
[15:41] <Ben-AstroSoc> has anyone done the math?
[15:41] <Ben-AstroSoc> for max burst alt
[15:41] <daveake> Several people tried, in a friendly way, to get real data from them. We didn't get any. We just got "you ar jealous / you don't believe because we are Mexican / etc etc"
[15:41] <Flutterbat> Vaizki: oh i see. i thought it adds a fixed reference point to the equation
[15:42] <x-f> he mentions and demonstrates an altimeter on that video (1:45)
[15:42] <Flutterbat> i wonder if that would work. a ground based gps system
[15:42] <Flutterbat> seems like a good idea
[15:43] <mattbrejza> 1.45 looks like a humidity sensor
[15:43] <x-f> yes, and next to that DHT22 he points to another sensor
[15:43] <Vaizki> Flutterbat, it does by having the fixed reference point broadcase the error it's seeing between calculated position and known position
[15:43] <mattbrejza> oh right, persumably pressure then
[15:43] <Vaizki> so other receivers can apply those deltas as error correction
[15:43] <daveake> Burst alt for 5m/s and 1700g payload is about 38km
[15:44] <Vaizki> but it's not sending correction data for lat/lon, it's sending data for each satellite
[15:44] <Ben-AstroSoc> could it get higher if it ascended slower?
[15:44] <daveake> not much
[15:45] <Ben-AstroSoc> out of curiosity has anyone tried this sort of thing with more than one balloon?
[15:45] <daveake> That just changes the ascent rate; burst happens when burst was going to happen anyway
[15:46] <Ben-AstroSoc> even if you had less healium in each individual balloon?
[15:46] <Ben-AstroSoc> helium*
[15:46] <daveake> For high altitude you use a very small payload. Sharing that teeny payload between balloons makes sqrt(naff-all) difference
[15:46] <Ben-AstroSoc> right
[15:46] <daveake> Almost all the gas is just to hold the balloon up
[15:47] <Ben-AstroSoc> ah, ok, so the margin is pretty small anyway
[15:50] <gonzo_> SpeedEvil, after a couple, I couldn't read the lable anyway
[15:50] <daveake> patrik__ Well, I've asked on youtube. We'll see what happens
[15:50] <x-f> gas tank has green top, not red, so they were using Helium
[15:51] <daveake> yes
[15:51] <daveake> It's all very ... Mexican
[15:51] <x-f> "i can't go to bed now, somebody is wrong on the internet" :)
[15:51] <daveake> :)
[15:51] <daveake> We'd never sleep
[15:51] <eroomde> also it's only ten to 4 so i can't go to bed now
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[16:01] <Oddstr13> My first look at 2.4 :D https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4306267/ShareX/2015/12/2015-12-07_17-00-19.png
[16:05] <patrik__> dave i dont see any comment on youtube
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[16:15] Nick change: Guest57388 -> Hix
[16:20] <daveake> It's there on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E92MUOnTws
[16:20] <chris_99> i get 'No comments to display'
[16:20] <daveake> That's the video you linked to
[16:21] <Ben-AstroSoc> same, no comment up ther
[16:21] <Ben-AstroSoc> i call shenanigans
[16:21] <daveake> how strange; I can see it
[16:21] <chris_99> odd
[16:21] <Ben-AstroSoc> maybe it has to be appropved?
[16:21] <chris_99> mmm
[16:21] <craag> lol
[16:21] <craag> good luck with that :P
[16:22] <Ben-AstroSoc> i mean it's not an official world record unless guinness WR were there so
[16:22] <Ben-AstroSoc> :^)
[16:22] <chris_99> the world record is 53km or something according to wiki
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[16:23] <daveake> Yeah not latex
[16:23] <daveake> or amateur
[16:23] <Ben-AstroSoc> what type of balloons do they use to get higher? foil?
[16:23] <daveake> plastic
[16:23] <chris_99> polyethylene it said
[16:23] <daveake> huuuuge
[16:23] <Ben-AstroSoc> ah
[16:23] <chris_99> and very thin also
[16:23] <Ben-AstroSoc> I can't remember what that red bull guy who jumped used
[16:23] <daveake> remember as they don't stretch, they have to be made the size they need to be at altitude
[16:23] <chris_99> ahh
[16:24] <SpeedEvil> I also see no comment
[16:24] <daveake> OK someone else try :)
[16:24] <daveake> My comment looks like this here: http://i.imgur.com/awoEw4r.png
[16:24] <Ben-AstroSoc> post it in italian
[16:24] <Ben-AstroSoc> approved instantly
[16:24] <chris_99> heh
[16:24] <SpeedEvil> Comments on youtube don't need approval thoguh?
[16:25] <Ben-AstroSoc> you can set it to be like that can't you?
[16:25] <Ben-AstroSoc> they don't by default
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[16:26] <SpeedEvil> dunno
[16:26] <chris_99> ok i tried to post too
[16:26] <chris_99> dunno if anyone else can see what i wrote
[16:26] <daveake> I can't :/
[16:27] <chris_99> grr
[16:27] <craag> Yeah you can set it to only show approved
[16:27] <SpeedEvil> yah
[16:27] <craag> s/you/the stream owner/
[16:28] <chris_99> there is an email address https://www.facebook.com/missionelady03/info/?tab=page_info thar
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[17:01] Nick change: prog` -> prog
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[17:21] Nick change: Lunar_Lander -> Lunar_LanderC
[17:21] <Lunar_LanderC> hello
[17:29] <eroomde> why are you now known as that?
[17:29] <daveake> Church?
[17:29] <daveake> Car?
[17:30] <Lunar_LanderC> A and B are also password protected and I got a new setup now
[17:30] <Lunar_LanderC> and I have to look for that PW first
[17:31] <BrainDamage> A and B had terrible accidents, this is 3rd attempt
[17:31] <Lunar_LanderC> :D
[17:32] <BrainDamage> btw, if you guys need a translation from/to italian, i think i could halfass something better than google translate
[17:33] <daveake> Yeah might need something :-)
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[17:33] <eroomde> which video are people commenting on?
[17:33] <daveake> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E92MUOnTws
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[17:34] <eroomde> no comments to display
[17:34] <daveake> exactly
[17:34] <daveake> still shows mine, to me only
[17:35] <daveake> It said "Add a public comment ..." so I can only guess it needs approval before it is actually pulic
[17:37] <daveake> I've messaged him on FB now; same text (Hi. This is a very impressive altitude. Do you have GPS altitude data for the flight? Or was the altitude measured in some other way - e.g. pressure sensor ?ÿ)
[17:37] <daveake> I suspect I won't get the whole enchilada
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[17:39] <daveake> BrainDamage If you can translate that ^ then I'll add it
[17:42] <BrainDamage> "Salve. È davvero un record di altitudine impressionante. Avete disponibile un tracciato gps con altitudine del volo? O per caso avete misurato l'altitudine con un metodo differente - per esempio, un sensore di pressione?" (backwards translation would be: "hi, it's a really impressive altitude record. do you have a gps track log showing altitudes for the flight? or did you measure the altitude in a different way? - for example, a pre
[17:43] <BrainDamage> i didn't go for 1:1 because polite and common forms are slightly different
[17:43] <daveake> cool ta
[17:43] <daveake> sure np tvm
[17:43] <eroomde> i observe that too
[17:43] <eroomde> i have, in my various dealing with italian space companies (there have been a few...) that suggesting some level or error or mistake is tantamount to insulting one's mother
[17:44] <eroomde> and must be countered with lots of huffing and chest beating and hand waving
[17:44] <eroomde> although basically all interaction in italian seems to be like that anyway
[17:44] <eroomde> at least the bits more than 100 miles from the swiss border
[17:44] <daveake> "seen 17:44"
[17:44] <eroomde> ?
[17:44] <daveake> He has seen the message on FB
[17:44] <eroomde> ah
[17:45] <daveake> <tense>
[17:45] <adamgreig> it's all kind of disingenuous anyway, if they did have a GPS log would you believe it?
[17:45] <adamgreig> feels like the conclusion has been reached and now there's just a long drawn out process that will end bitterly
[17:45] <BrainDamage> it's a bit harder to fake because they'd have to fit the weather model for the flight
[17:46] <daveake> at least there'd be info, rather than "hey wow we got so high"
[17:48] <Laurenceb> hmm yeah something like just scaling the gps altitude should show up by comparing to weather model
[17:48] <BrainDamage> perhaps suggest if they could broadcast their gps position ( if they ever attempt a 2nd flight ) onto the existing receiver network if compatible with local rules? that'd be in the best interest for both parties assuming good faith on their side
[17:48] <mattbrejza> if the weather data for that day is still avaliable...
[17:54] <eroomde> i have just given myself a blister by enthusiastically air-conducing some beethoven on the radio with a fork, held with the tines pressing into the palm of my hand
[17:54] <eroomde> this is stupid as i have a badminton match this evening
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[19:20] <Vaizki> my backscroll doesn't go too far.. So an Italian crew is saying 49.5k with latex balloon but measures it with a basic pressure altimeter?
[19:20] <Vaizki> I thought those are useless beyond 15k or so?
[19:22] <SpeedEvil> they are
[19:23] <SpeedEvil> Unless special ones are used, and it seems not.
[19:23] <SpeedEvil> It apparently was connected to ardupilot also, which has sucky pressure estimation
[19:24] <SpeedEvil> eroomde #firstworldproblems :)
[19:25] <chris_99> SpeedEvil, you know you meantioned the FM-CW laser range finding, do you think that's what a £30 DIY range finder would use?
[19:26] <chris_99> as they are accurate to 2mm appparently
[19:26] <SpeedEvil> chris_99: I don't know
[19:26] <SpeedEvil> chris_99: I haven't seen a teardown of those.
[19:26] <chris_99> aha no worries
[19:26] <SpeedEvil> What they are certainly not doing is running throuhg an ADC at 1THz
[19:26] <chris_99> hehe
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[19:27] <daveake> <chris_99> as they are accurate to 2mm appparently
[19:27] Nick change: Guest42834 -> AndyEsser
[19:27] <chris_99> according to amazon anyway ;)
[19:27] <daveake> 2km, but yes, still not useful for HAB :)
[19:27] <chris_99> oh yeah
[19:27] <chris_99> these where just cheapo diy ones
[19:28] <chris_99> i bet an FPGA would be good for the FM-CW one
[19:29] <AndyEsser> Evening all
[19:30] <daveake> evening
[19:30] <AndyEsser> Looking at getting into High Altitude balloons and rocketry and thought I'd pop in and say hi
[19:30] <AndyEsser> Hope that's ok/doesn't break any rules :)
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> nop
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> * not legal advice
[19:33] <Vaizki> I think talking to people must be against some FCC regulations by now
[19:33] <AndyEsser> :P
[19:33] <AndyEsser> Well thought it polite to check at least before barging in ;)
[19:37] <Vaizki> uk?
[19:39] <AndyEsser> Yes
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[19:50] <Ian_> http://imgur.com/k7ePGh0 I also can only see my own comment
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[19:51] <AndyEsser> Does anyone know if Ed Moore still comes around the IRC channel at all?
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[19:53] <Steffanx> yes
[19:53] Action: Vaizki points at eroomde
[19:59] <Vaizki> hmm never heard of this pothos thingy with SDR bit.. :O
[20:00] <Vaizki> looks like gnuradio but made by someone who washes their hair?
[20:00] <AndyEsser> Vaizki: thanks :)
[20:33] <mfa298> AndyEsser: the general rule on IRC is just ask (although if there's a hot conversation going on you may want to hold off a bit), there's lots of experience here so ask anything, or just see what happens.
[20:34] <mfa298> although evenings seem to have been quieter here recently
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[21:34] <patrik__> i think wabettere eben that italians talk here before launch was netter
[21:34] <patrik__> better
[21:35] <AndyEsser> mfa298: cheers - not unfamiliar with IRC - just didn't know if here was "noob friendly" :)
[21:35] <patrik__> they trow away a lot of money for nothing
[21:37] <Upu> evening patrik_
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[21:40] <mfa298> AndyEsser: we're generally a very noob friendly bunch here
[21:40] <AndyEsser> \o/
[21:40] <AndyEsser> hurrah
[21:40] Action: fsphil puts away the pitchforks
[21:40] <daveake> burn the noob burn the noob
[21:41] <AndyEsser> :)
[21:41] <mfa298> sometimes we even talk about on-topic stuff :p
[21:42] <fsphil> whoa slow down there
[21:42] <patrik__> anyway no one can post
[21:43] <patrik__> in youtube
[21:43] <patrik__> bad things
[21:43] <fsphil> they've gone full mexican?
[21:43] <daveake> I just asked a question
[21:43] <patrik__> in fb answer?
[21:43] <daveake> Granted it's a question I probably know the answer to
[21:44] <daveake> YT and FB; same question
[21:44] <patrik__> try to ask to simone ippolito
[21:44] <daveake> Why?
[21:44] <daveake> I've akeed twice, politely
[21:44] <daveake> I know my question has been read
[21:44] <patrik__> yes
[21:45] <patrik__> but who read know nothing
[21:45] <daveake> And you've asked but had no answer ?
[21:45] <patrik__> in missione spaziale it sa just responsable of video
[21:45] <daveake> ok
[21:46] <daveake> You seem to know a few things; why don't you ask the correct person?
[21:46] <patrik__> ihe know nothing about sensor
[21:46] <patrik__> he alaredy told me yesterday
[21:46] <patrik__> to as him
[21:46] <patrik__> about elettronic
[21:46] <daveake> OK well let us know if/when you get an answer
[21:47] <patrik__> he dosnt answer me
[21:47] <patrik__> i try every way
[21:47] <patrik__> watsup
[21:47] <daveake> OK, well that should tell you something
[21:47] <patrik__> fb
[21:47] <patrik__> email
[21:47] <patrik__> but nothing
[21:47] <fsphil> yeah
[21:48] <patrik__> look like we have the record
[21:48] <patrik__> if u dont believe
[21:48] <patrik__> up to u
[21:49] <fsphil> there is no record here
[21:49] <daveake> It is just impossible
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[21:50] <mfa298> most people if they're trying to legitimatelly claim a record / breakthrough will happily share their data to demonstrate what theyve acheived
[21:50] <daveake> Anyway, there is a record table. It's on ARHAB. To get on that table you/they need GPS confirmation. I will believe the record when it is on ARHAB.
[21:51] <Upu> give us the data and if you have the record I assure you we will be the first people to congratulate you
[21:51] <Upu> I have the biggest willy here, you'll just have to take my word for it
[21:52] <daveake> We'll do without the data, thanks :p
[21:52] <Upu> ahha
[21:53] <patrik__> ok
[21:53] <patrik__> noon know yet
[21:53] <patrik__> but last night
[21:53] <AndyEsser> Good to see this IRC channel is just as bad as all the others ;)
[21:53] <patrik__> i launche a new balloon
[21:53] <patrik__> and i make a new record
[21:53] <patrik__> 60000 km
[21:53] <Upu> lol
[21:53] <daveake> I believe you
[21:54] <Upu> http://i.imgur.com/QRe37Yu.gif
[21:54] <chris_99> heh
[21:54] <patrik__> but my gps stop to work at 400 m
[21:54] <Upu> 50000m
[21:54] <Upu> we'll tell you how to do it
[21:54] <patrik__> so u have to believe me
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[21:54] <Upu> and if you get it above 50km we'll let you have it
[21:54] <daveake> http://cdn.meme.am/instances/400x/53865521.jpg
[21:54] <Upu> too soon
[21:55] <daveake> hah
[21:55] <patrik__> soooo
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[21:55] <patrik__> u dont believe me?
[21:55] <patrik__> just only because im italian
[21:55] <Upu> under a latex balloon ? Nope
[21:55] <Upu> nothing to do with your nationality
[21:56] <Upu> its to do with physics
[21:56] <patrik__> upu im joking
[21:56] <mfa298> well, John Lewis have got a balloon to the moon havn't they (they've got a TV advert to prove it so it must be true!)
[21:56] <Upu> ok :)
[21:56] <Upu> honestly get us the data and we will seriously look at it
[21:56] <patrik__> but that italian guy
[21:56] <patrik__> they believe to have a new record
[21:56] <Upu> if he wants to claim "the record" its certainly a record for them
[21:56] <patrik__> everyone here they believe
[21:57] <Upu> yeah thats the sad thing
[21:57] <patrik__> even sponsor
[21:57] <Upu> once you go down that road its hard to turn round and go "oops sorry we screwed up"
[21:57] <patrik__> the problem
[21:57] <Upu> yep
[21:57] <Upu> so have your record but don't expect to see it on ARHAB
[21:58] <daveake> http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/51855317.jpg
[21:58] <patrik__> that for example if i want launche really a balloon
[21:58] <patrik__> now i have to do more than 49500
[21:58] <patrik__> hahaha
[21:58] <daveake> No
[21:58] <patrik__> really impossible
[21:58] <daveake> Like I said, there is a table, on ARHAB
[21:59] <patrik__> i mean
[21:59] <daveake> All you need to beat is that
[21:59] <patrik__> in italy they will say some other
[21:59] <patrik__> make better
[21:59] <patrik__> noone know that table
[21:59] <patrik__> i mean here
[21:59] <Upu> fine :)
[22:00] <patrik__> we live in a small city
[22:00] <patrik__> so
[22:00] <patrik__> for me its so sad story
[22:00] <Lunar_LanderC> http://stratocat.com.ar/news0913e.htm
[22:01] <patrik__> in just 2 days
[22:01] <Lunar_LanderC> http://www.isas.jaxa.jp/j/topics/topics/2013/0920.shtml
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[22:01] <patrik__> everyone here open my eyes
[22:02] <Upu> honestly we'll help you go as high as possible
[22:02] <patrik__> lunar that was jaxa
[22:02] <Upu> but we can't get you to 49km
[22:02] <Upu> I think 38km though
[22:02] <patrik__> cannot compare with amatur
[22:03] <Upu> note the balloon they used
[22:03] <patrik__> infact
[22:03] <patrik__> after mission
[22:03] <patrik__> i start to search around internet
[22:04] <patrik__> and i alewdy found them
[22:04] <patrik__> anc compare italian ballook and jaxa
[22:04] <patrik__> so istart to say there is somenthing wrong here
[22:04] <patrik__> just for logic
[22:05] <patrik__> i continue to search
[22:05] <patrik__> by net
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[22:05] <patrik__> and i found table
[22:05] <patrik__> after table i found your website
[22:05] <patrik__> and in the final the chat
[22:05] <patrik__> all this in 4 day
[22:05] <Upu> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7jRWvdR5XQ
[22:06] <patrik__> thees italian guys work for 9 month before launch
[22:06] <daveake> yeah that's a lot
[22:06] <Upu> shame they didn't come on here
[22:06] <patrik__> and they make 1000 mistake
[22:06] <daveake> and they didn't learn how to actually make a balloon go high
[22:07] <patrik__> its alreay 4 balloon for them
[22:07] <Upu> I'll make the same offer I made to the Mexicans
[22:07] <Upu> I'll loan you a small 30g tracker which reports the altitude via GPS
[22:08] <Upu> just throw it in the box
[22:08] <patrik__> hahaha
[22:08] <patrik__> he begin to belive
[22:08] <patrik__> :P
[22:08] <Upu> :)
[22:08] <Upu> afk walking dog
[22:09] <Jartza> evening
[22:09] <daveake> The big problem I think is that if you believe you have made a new record, and tell everyone, it's not easy to learn that you were wrong
[22:09] <Lunar_LanderC> hi Jartza
[22:10] <patrik__> yeah dave
[22:10] <patrik__> too difficult now say everyone
[22:10] <patrik__> sorry we canot
[22:11] <patrik__> we are wrong
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[22:11] <patrik__> no new recod
[22:11] <patrik__> if i am sponsor i ask back money
[22:11] <patrik__> hahaha
[22:13] <Jartza> I even forgot I'm on this channel :)
[22:13] <Jartza> I guess too many windows
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[22:37] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03M6LZY after 035 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=M6LZY
[22:41] <patrik__> oh my god
[22:41] <patrik__> how can they do so long travel
[22:42] <fsphil> um?
[22:43] <fsphil> oh the map. the red line is a prediction, if it had a very very slow ascent rate
[22:44] <patrik__> ah ok
[22:44] <fsphil> and a balloon that could last a week
[22:44] <Ian_> patrik__ Google 'B64 Leo Bodnar' His balloon travelled 7 times around the world, but only one met the stringent rules I believe. He flew 66 in the series to achieve global circumnavigation \
[22:44] <patrik__> but why dont go up
[22:44] <fsphil> it's just a test
[22:44] <Ian_> with two of them.
[22:45] <Upu> under certain circumstances (and balloons) you can achieve a float
[22:45] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/?p=522
[22:45] <Upu> and just note those balloons
[22:46] <Upu> very low ascent rate
[22:52] <patrik__> 40.000 con 2,5 kg
[22:53] <patrik__> exit a baloon that go to 40000 m with 2,5 kg
[22:53] <patrik__> ?
[22:53] <Upu> too heavy
[22:53] <Upu> 1600g Hwoyee with Hydrogen could hit 40km with <1kg
[22:53] <patrik__> he told me its th best
[22:53] <Upu> http://habhub.org/calc/
[22:54] <Upu> delete target burst alt and stick 3-6 in the target ascent
[22:55] <Upu> Hwoyee 1600 are like the Ferraris of the balloon world, out perform pretty much everything but fail on a regular basis too
[22:57] <patrik__> im trying with 3000 g
[22:57] <patrik__> they told me was 3 kg balloon
[22:58] <eroomde> you won't get close to their record
[22:58] <daveake> yes liiked like it
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[22:58] <eroomde> do try and so convince yourself
[22:58] <Upu> it may sound wrong
[22:58] <eroomde> they really must be wrong
[22:58] <Upu> but 3000kg don't go as high as the 1600gs
[22:58] <Upu> err
[22:58] <Upu> 3000g
[22:58] <SpeedEvil> Starting out with the method they have used to measure is known to be inaccurate and has misread dramatically in the past.
[22:58] <mattbrejza> we've got 38km or so with a 1kg payload i seem to remember (1600g howyee oc)
[22:59] <Upu> they are for heavy lifting of large payloads but don't go significantly higher than the light balloons
[22:59] <Upu> We got 40km with a 1200g but lets not talk about that statistical anomoly
[22:59] <Upu> 1kg was it daveake ?
[22:59] <SpeedEvil> And ending up with 'at the pressure involved to get a neutrally bouyant balloon you need to considerably exceed the specified burst radius'
[22:59] <daveake> 3 payloads
[22:59] <daveake> prob 1kg yes
[23:00] <fsphil> extra woo
[23:01] <eroomde> so the bloke here in the video laughing
[23:01] <eroomde> to the left of the girl talking
[23:01] <eroomde> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-35031707
[23:02] <eroomde> is joe, my old room mate at uni
[23:02] <eroomde> he and angus were both at churchill in my year
[23:02] <patrik__> upu hao to know the targt ascent
[23:02] <eroomde> i'm quite impressed with them
[23:03] <Upu> well aim for 5m/s (thats considered "normal")
[23:03] <Upu> sub 2m/s and you may float
[23:03] <Upu> > 6m/s and it will take lots of gas, be a pig on the ground and burst earlier (normally)
[23:04] <patrik__> can u understand from that video
[23:04] <patrik__> ?
[23:04] <Upu> their balloon looked very full but didn't go up that quick
[23:04] <Upu> it didn't look like a 3000g but I've never seen one
[23:05] <patrik__> u think could be around 5 m/s
[23:05] <patrik__> ?
[23:05] <Upu> thats a normal ascent rate for a balloon you want to burst
[23:06] <Upu> and generally what the manufactures recommend
[23:06] <Upu> See https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/PDFS/ta4000.pdf
[23:06] <Upu> as an example
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[23:15] <patrik__> what is gross lift
[23:16] <Upu> neck lift ?
[23:17] <Upu> I have to log
[23:17] <Upu> back tommorrow
[23:17] <daveake> The calculator shows the neck lift, which is the amount that the balloon could *just* hold off the ground
[23:18] <Lunar_LanderC> night Upu
[23:21] <daveake> So if for example you have 1.7kg payload, and 3.2kg of neck lift, then there is (3.2 - 1.7) = 1.5kg of excess lift. If you are holding that 1.7kg payload with the balloon above, then you will feel that 1.5kg of lift.
[23:22] <daveake> That 1.5kg is what takes the balloon and payload up into the sky
[23:22] <SpeedEvil> http://www.space.com/31307-russian-military-satellite-kanopus-launch-failure.html on russian satellites at 65km
[23:29] <daveake> And to answer your question, gross lift = neck lift + balloon weight
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[00:00] --- Tue Dec 8 2015