highaltitude.log.20151206

[00:02] Action: LazyLeopard vaguely remembers kit from there being used by the survey vessels run by his former employer...
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[02:47] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03CHANGEME after 0316 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CHANGEME
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[02:59] <Darkside_> lel
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[04:57] Nick change: Flutterb1t -> Flutterbat
[05:13] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03kat_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=kat_chase
[05:20] <Darkside_> Flutterbat: squee
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[08:39] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HORUSLORA after 0321 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HORUSLORA
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[09:05] <PE2BZ> !flights
[09:05] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ: There are no flights currently :(
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[11:39] <chris_99> !flights
[11:39] <SpacenearUS> 03chris_99: There are no flights currently :(
[11:40] <fsphil> some day
[11:42] <daveake> some day our flights will come
[11:42] <chris_99> hehe
[11:42] <chris_99> i played yesterday with rtl_tcp (on my machine with the rtlsdr) -over wifi--> gqrx ---> fldigi, which looked ok on the waterfall but the sound was jerky, probably as my wifi isn't that great
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[11:45] <fsphil> yeah I tried that too. the pi's usb bus just isn't enough
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[11:47] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[11:47] <chris_99> oh this was just on a normal desktop machine, i think my wifi adapter may be a bit iffy, so i may try a new one
[11:48] <fsphil> hah, not sure how I managed to jump to Pi
[11:49] <chris_99> i'm not sure how much bandwidth rtl_tcp needs though, as i guess it doesn't do any compression
[11:49] <Lunar_Lander> you experienced a sudden jump 180° around?
[11:49] <fsphil> did you try rtl_fm direct to fldigi?
[11:49] <chris_99> oh that worked fine
[11:49] <fsphil> I'm covering all the angles Lunar_Lander
[11:49] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[11:49] <chris_99> as it's then all local to the machine
[11:50] <fsphil> rtl_fm > wifi > fldigi
[11:50] <chris_99> oh i didn't try that way
[11:50] <chris_99> i just did me ---x2go-------> rtl_fm | netcat , fldigi
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[12:38] <mfa298> chris_99: from memory rtl_tcp is something like 30mbps for the 2Msps rate, you might be able to reduce that by lowering the sample rate
[12:38] <chris_99> ah interesting
[12:38] <chris_99> i was wondering if it might be somewhat compressible if i piped it through gzip
[12:39] <mfa298> infact should be 32mbps: 2 * (8 + 8)
[12:39] <mfa298> 8bits of I samples and 8 bits of Q samples (if I got the maths right)
[12:40] <mfa298> if you could use rtl_fm and just pipe the baseband audio to dl-fldigi that would reduce the traffic substantially.
[12:40] <chris_99> mmm yeah
[12:42] <mfa298> could be interesting piping it through gzip
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[13:13] <Flutterbat> Darkside_: squee?
[13:26] <fsphil> flac :)
[13:27] <fsphil> not sure if flac does 8-bit stereo
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[14:03] <crow_> It would appear that in my efforts to receive and decode my payload, its a case of 1 step forward, 1 step back. I managed a good hour of streaming data yesterday. Today I recreate the exact conditions and software setup - aaaand back to gibberish in the dl-fldigi text window
[14:04] <eroomde> yay software
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[14:05] <eroomde> have you tried all the usual things in this situation - checking you haven't accidently hit 'Rv' in the bottom right of dl-fldigi?
[14:05] <eroomde> manually double-checking the rtty settings are correct?
[14:06] <crow_> yeah :(
[14:07] <crow_> What I have noticed though is that on the 2 occaisions when decoding has worked [once for 4 minutes, once for an hour] the waterfall in dl-fldigi was a lot cleaner. But I've no idea why sometimes its seems so noisy and other times it doesnt
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[14:10] <Ian_> Florescent lights?
[14:10] <crow_> Given i've carefully recreated the software settings [took screen shots of settings when it was working well] and it isnt working.... I'm starting to think its hardware. Is that reasonable?
[14:10] <crow_> LEDs
[14:10] <Ian_> Turn them off and see
[14:11] <crow_> Just have :) But no joy
[14:11] <Ian_> :(
[14:11] <crow_> I've also experimented with turning everything else in the room off.... moving the Pi closer and further away
[14:11] <fsphil> reduce the gain in your sdr app
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[14:12] <fsphil> if you are using an rtlsdr, they're quite sensitive to strong signals
[14:13] <crow_> Ive played with the gain [as that seemed to be the silver bullet last night] but Ive varied it across the full range and no change
[14:14] <jonsowman> which sdr app are you using?
[14:14] <jonsowman> some have rf gain and af gain
[14:15] <crow_> using sdr#
[14:15] <fsphil> try removing one of the antennas
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[14:16] <crow_> trying antennas now
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[14:18] <eroomde> plug your laptop in
[14:20] <crow_> OK, unhooked Pi antenna, only got worse, replugged it and unhooked dongle antenna, again signal was worse and only gibberish in text window
[14:21] <crow_> Unhooked GPS anntenna.... just because im trying most other things... no change
[14:21] <eroomde> plugged/unplugged your laptop?
[14:22] <crow_> yep
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[14:31] <fsphil> screenshots. we might spot something
[14:33] <crow_> OK I was just doing that. I'll start with this one which is a close up of the dl-fldigi waterfall... which with my almost zero experience I think looks suspect.
[14:33] <crow_> http://imgur.com/E3lUnJq
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[14:36] <crow_> aaaannd pretty much the full settings etc:
[14:36] <crow_> http://imgur.com/Dvhkdrs
[14:36] <fsphil> it is quite noisty
[14:36] <fsphil> -t
[14:36] <daveake> You have the wrong shift
[14:36] <daveake> Add 100Hz
[14:37] <crow_> shift has been varied between 600 and 750
[14:37] <crow_> no change
[14:37] <daveake> do it anyway
[14:37] <Upu> and run dl-fldigi HAB mode
[14:37] <fsphil> if you clap your hands, do you see lines on the fldigi waterfall?
[14:37] <fsphil> the extra noise could be coming from a mic
[14:37] <Upu> good point fsphil
[14:38] <crow_> no, frightened the cr*p out of the dog though ;-)
[14:38] <fsphil> the sdr# waterfall looks fairly clean
[14:38] <Upu> lol
[14:38] <fsphil> hah
[14:39] <Upu> sort the shift out
[14:39] <crow_> OK, I changed the shift to 700 and for about 15 secinds got this
[14:39] <crow_> <<2015-12-06T14:14Z RTTY @ 0768>>
[14:39] <Upu> thats fine
[14:39] <crow_> but now back to gibberish
[14:39] <Upu> press RV
[14:39] <crow_> RV pressed, no change
[14:40] <Upu> give it a sec
[14:40] <crow_> ok
[14:40] <Upu> do you want to do a remote session?
[14:40] <Upu> I take control of your PC
[14:41] <crow_> work laptop, they may have banjaxed the availability of such functionality
[14:41] <Upu> can try it if you want its LogMeInRescue a proper support tool
[14:41] <crow_> ok
[14:41] <crow_> well worth a shot
[14:41] <Upu> go to http://www.nevis.co.uk
[14:42] <Upu> top right it says Remote Support
[14:42] <Upu> click that, stick your name in, press connect
[14:42] <Upu> press run a few times
[14:43] <crow_> ok its loaded
[14:43] <Upu> UAC prompt may be up
[14:43] <Upu> may not be
[14:44] <Upu> it will say 2nd line support would like to control your PC
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[14:50] <Upu> just grabbing the audio so I can post it here
[14:50] <Upu> there is nothing glaring wrong
[14:51] <Upu> you can type if you want crow_
[14:51] Laurenceb (~Laurence@host86-169-153-149.range86-169.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[14:51] <Upu> Just going to make a cuppa - your ADSL is slow :)
[14:52] <crow_> Thanks. Yep out in the sticks, upload speeds are woeful
[14:53] <crow_> hmmm, upload appears to have hung
[14:55] <Upu> yep
[14:55] <Upu> do you have drop box ?
[14:55] <crow_> I'll email the file to you?
[14:55] <Upu> let me try transfer once more
[14:55] <crow_> k
[14:56] <Upu> aye go on
[14:56] <Upu> I'll drop this session
[14:56] <crow_> ok
[14:56] <Upu> PM'd mail address
[14:56] <Upu> disconnected
[14:57] <crow_> gimmie a second here
[15:00] <Upu> no rush
[15:05] <Lunar_Lander> hi Upu :)
[15:05] <Upu> hi Lunar
[15:09] <Lunar_Lander> today I'd like to share with you an experimental work
[15:09] <Lunar_Lander> non electronic, non silicon, all carbon and you can eat it
[15:09] <Lunar_Lander> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1lke6hPHKJDZV9TN1ZYVDNuOTQ/view?usp=sharing
[15:09] <Lunar_Lander> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1lke6hPHKJDMHpnRW4xZXJyU1U/view?usp=sharing
[15:09] <Lunar_Lander> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1lke6hPHKJDWXhOZmRYZ0xxbVk/view?usp=sharing
[15:11] <chris_99> haha :)
[15:11] <Upu> it doesn't sound eight crow_
[15:11] <Upu> https://www.dropbox.com/s/yjv0jtu8oz82ayh/SDRSharp_20151206_144640Z_434218272Hz_AF.wav?dl=0
[15:11] <crow_> :-(
[15:13] <crow_> is it hardware on the pi/pits ?
[15:13] <Upu> don't think so
[15:13] <adamgreig> Lunar_Lander: what have you done :p
[15:13] <Upu> anyone else want to comment ?
[15:13] <daveake> sounds crap
[15:14] <daveake> and LL are you on drugs?
[15:14] <adamgreig> what radio are you using?
[15:14] <Upu> thats off the SDR
[15:14] <Upu> RTL
[15:14] <Lunar_Lander> adamgreig, that was the first time baking something
[15:14] <Lunar_Lander> daveake, no
[15:14] <daveake> :)
[15:14] <Upu> there is nothing else on the water fall
[15:14] <daveake> I'm sure it tastes great :)
[15:14] <Upu> which is odd
[15:14] <crow_> is it my potentially dodgy cheap radio dongle?
[15:14] <Upu> possibly
[15:14] <Upu> got access to anything else ?
[15:14] <adamgreig> wow yea it sounds awful
[15:14] <Lunar_Lander> daveake, :)
[15:14] <adamgreig> suspect it's software settings tbh
[15:14] <Lunar_Lander> the best thing is
[15:15] <adamgreig> possibly way too high gain
[15:15] <fsphil> that wav file is decoding fine here
[15:15] <Lunar_Lander> it's more honey cake than gingerbread :D
[15:15] <crow_> ooHHHH
[15:15] <fsphil> $$CHANGEME,1572,14:47:31,51.57114,-1.13761,00061,0,0,6,31.6,4.1,175*AC51
[15:15] <crow_> thats encouraging
[15:15] <crow_> very encouraging
[15:15] <Upu> lets have a fiddle with gain cross
[15:15] <Upu> crow
[15:15] <Upu> in the cog
[15:15] <Upu> drag all the gain settings down
[15:16] <crow_> gain now at zero, all boxes unticked
[15:16] <adamgreig> this is 300bd?
[15:16] <Upu> yes
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[15:16] <Upu> it should be crisper than that
[15:16] <crow_> still gibberish in the dl-fldigi
[15:17] <fsphil> http://i.imgur.com/mz65qUx.png
[15:17] <fsphil> tuned a little low, but otherwise fine
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[15:19] <crow_> my fldigi config window looks different to that [right hand part of the window on yours has more settings]
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[15:19] <fsphil> yeah my version is probably between current dl-fldigi and latest fldigi
[15:19] <fsphil> but that shouldn't matter too much
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[15:20] <fsphil> your waterfall in dl-fldigi looks noisier than that
[15:20] <fsphil> why I was wondering if you had the mic on earlier
[15:20] <crow_> yeah, a hell of a lot noisier
[15:20] <Upu> that wav was recorded direct from SDR
[15:20] <fsphil> so the problem seems to be between fldigi and sdr#
[15:21] <Upu> what do you have as the input on dl-fldigi ?
[15:21] <fsphil> I'm using pulseaudio to capture the output of the sound card directly
[15:21] <fsphil> that wav was playing in vlc
[15:22] <crow_> line 1 (virtual audio cable)
[15:22] <Upu> have you got 2 VAC lines ?
[15:22] <Upu> I've had issues sometimes with them
[15:22] <Upu> switch to Line2 (Virtual Audio cable) for SDR out put and dl-fldigi input
[15:22] <crow_> Ive only got 1
[15:23] <daveake> make another
[15:23] <Upu> go into the control panel and make a new one
[15:23] <Upu> and reboot
[15:23] <crow_> ok
[15:23] <Upu> and if it doesn't do it
[15:23] <Upu> reboot and do it
[15:23] <crow_> ok
[15:23] <Upu> run as administrator
[15:23] <crow_> working through that now
[15:23] <Upu> rgr
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[15:35] <crow_> hello
[15:35] <crow_> ok, I made line 2, switched outputs/inputs accordingly. and its seems to be much better in dl-fldigi
[15:36] <crow_> not perfect, still plenty of dropped packets
[15:36] <crow_> but maybe 90%
[15:36] <crow_> Before switching to line 2, it was set on line 1 and there was nothing in the waterfall but the text box was still filling with text
[15:37] <crow_> %good reads apears to be climbing
[15:37] <Upu> good
[15:38] <crow_> %good reads seems near 100% now. the waterfall is still very noisy though
[15:39] <crow_> Whats the rough explanation for the line1/line2 variability?
[15:42] <Upu> no idea :)
[15:43] <Upu> but i've seen that before
[15:44] <crow_> Cant thank you enough for the help. Same goes for everyone else. There's been a lot of time spent at the laptop this week and everytime I seemed to hit a brick wall, someone on this channel has helped me out. Enormous gratitude from this end guys, seriously, thank-you
[15:45] <Ian_> The wav file did sound a bit LF, all the high raspiness seemed absent, a bit burbly?
[15:45] <Ian_> Sorry about the late report
[15:45] <crow_> ;-)
[15:45] <crow_> LF=?
[15:45] <Ian_> Low Frequency
[15:46] <crow_> could that be a result of a dirt cheap £10 usb antenna?
[15:47] <crow_> *dongle
[15:50] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KG5KNM-11_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KG5KNM-11_chase
[15:51] <Ian_> is there a reference 600baud signal to listen to in the wiki?
[15:53] <Ian_> I wouldn't race to blame the dongle
[15:54] <Ian_> They are a little wide without a HAB amp/filter
[15:54] jcoxon (~jcoxon@84.51.141.9) joined #highaltitude.
[15:54] <Ian_> but I don't suppose that the XYL is upstairs nattering on 70cm Amateur Radio while you are testing ;)
[15:55] <Ian_> Worst case social scenario
[15:55] Nick change: DrLuke__ -> DrLuke
[15:57] gb73d (~gb73d@81-178-184-115.dsl.pipex.com) joined #highaltitude.
[15:57] <crow_> xyl=wife?...no lol
[15:58] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[15:58] <daveake> As the audio is OK, it's not the SDR
[16:18] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KG5KNM-11 after 0320 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KG5KNM-11
[16:28] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03W9RGT-5 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=W9RGT-5
[16:29] <chris_99> awh i thought that was in the UK then when i saw durham
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[16:51] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03W9RGT-4 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=W9RGT-4
[16:58] <Laurenceb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZMC-2
[16:58] <Laurenceb> ^interesting
[17:02] <SpeedEvil> 'The sheets of Alclad used were eight to nine thousandths of an inch thic
[17:02] <SpeedEvil> (metal skin airship)
[17:03] <SpeedEvil> I was going on about foil balloons a while ago
[17:04] <Laurenceb> I'd worry about ripping failure
[17:04] <Laurenceb> they had the advantage of shaping the panels well
[17:04] <Laurenceb> nowadays I guess you could replace the rivets with adhesive
[17:05] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[17:05] <SpeedEvil> And possible fiber-reinforcement
[17:05] Action: Laurenceb wonders about a massive hydrogen filled steel monocoque airship to carry shipping containers
[17:05] <Laurenceb> 10km long, 1.5km diameter
[17:06] <Laurenceb> cargo could be about 3 million tonnes
[17:06] <SpeedEvil> Windshear alas.
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[17:07] <SpeedEvil> I guess at that sectional density advantage in principle, you could bull through a lot of weather
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[17:07] <SpeedEvil> Just five or so of them would fully deploy the PLA
[17:08] <Laurenceb> massive airships are much more efficient
[17:08] <Laurenceb> but there are a few issues...
[17:08] <Laurenceb> like screwing up the weather lol
[17:08] <Laurenceb> also hard to power
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> you mean airscrew wise?
[17:09] <Laurenceb> yes
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> lol
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> At that scale - a whale-tail.
[17:10] <SpeedEvil> Ray.
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[17:13] <Laurenceb> actually at that scale you could stick a conventional airport runway on the bottom
[17:13] <Laurenceb> Heathrow replacement
[17:38] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KD0AWK-8 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD0AWK-8
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[17:58] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC9QBK-6 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC9QBK-6
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[18:10] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ria-20a_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ria-20a_chase
[18:12] <Lunar_Lander> https://www.facebook.com/martin.rundkvist/posts/10153204801405373
[18:12] <Lunar_Lander> nice one
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[18:49] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Aggie-3_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Aggie-3_chase
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[18:52] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KD0AWK - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD0AWK
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[20:52] <Patrik_> Hi to all
[20:52] <Patrik_> i woul like to tell every one
[20:53] <Patrik_> there is a new world record
[20:53] <Patrik_> and its ITALIAN
[20:53] <Patrik_> 49.500 m
[20:54] <adamgreig> exciting
[20:54] <adamgreig> do you have details?
[20:55] <Patrik_> for sure
[20:55] <adamgreig> extraordinary claims will require extraordinary proof as is the way of things
[20:55] <Patrik_> u can here
[20:55] john_fak (01b26d71@gateway/web/freenode/ip.1.178.109.113) joined #highaltitude.
[20:56] <Patrik_> https://www.facebook.com/missionelady03/?fref=ts
[20:56] RealBorg (tom@78.41.115.150) left irc: Write error: Broken pipe
[20:56] <Patrik_> if u need data mission u can ask to administrators
[20:57] <daveake> What balloon was this?
[20:57] <Patrik_> anyway everyone can already see video
[20:57] MarkIreland (~MarkIrela@host86-190-57-24.range86-190.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[20:58] <daveake> Ah latex bvalloon. Huge payload.
[20:59] RealBorg (tom@78.41.115.150) joined #highaltitude.
[21:00] <daveake> Do you have technical information such as GPS logs, balloon make/model, payload weight ?
[21:00] <Patrik_> well i dont know all details
[21:00] <adamgreig> and the sensors used to determine altitude would be important too
[21:01] <Patrik_> i ask to the owner record tio come in this chat
[21:01] Nick change: RealBorg -> realborg
[21:01] <Patrik_> i hope he is not sleep
[21:03] <Upu> Mexican ?
[21:03] <Patrik_> payload weight could be 1 kg 7
[21:03] <Patrik_> 1,7 kg
[21:03] <daveake> This is all sounding rather familiar
[21:04] <Patrik_> what u mean?
[21:05] <daveake> Well, to get a high altitude with a latex balloon, you need 2 things
[21:05] <Upu> we had a team claiming the record a while back
[21:05] <daveake> well 3 including luck
[21:05] <Upu> but the numbers didn't add up at all
[21:05] <daveake> #1 is a very ligth payload
[21:05] <Upu> and we upset some Mexicans
[21:05] <daveake> #2 is hydrogen
[21:05] <daveake> and this is helium and a huge payload
[21:05] <Patrik_> helium
[21:05] <Patrik_> they use helium
[21:05] <Upu> get them in here
[21:05] <Upu> we'd love to have a chat
[21:06] <Patrik_> im trying
[21:06] <Patrik_> maybe sleeping
[21:06] <Patrik_> already
[21:06] <adamgreig> daveake: i reckon you could have a heavy payload and helium lifting gas and still beat the current record
[21:06] <Upu> with the right balloon
[21:06] <daveake> with a regular latex balloon ?
[21:06] <adamgreig> not with a radiosonde latex balloon though :P
[21:06] <Upu> which isn't make of latex :)
[21:06] <daveake> exactly :)
[21:06] <Upu> made
[21:06] <SpeedEvil> you could probably make one of latex big enough :)
[21:07] <SpeedEvil> But not the normal run of stuff
[21:07] <daveake> well I couldn't but yes quite possibly
[21:07] <Upu> even the 4000g Kaymonts won't do it
[21:07] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[21:07] <daveake> nope
[21:07] <daveake> not that I fancy buying a few to find out for sure
[21:07] <SpeedEvil> Now I'm wondering about heated hydrogen
[21:08] <Patrik_> well i think was latex
[21:08] <daveake> I keep thinking of putting in a black card to heat it up
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> a teeny heater to get it to +30C or so in the envelope, and then drop off the battery
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> that's probably more sensible
[21:08] <daveake> yes it's latex that obvious from the video
[21:08] <Upu> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/PDFS/ta4000.pdf
[21:08] <daveake> 500m extra with He
[21:09] <SpeedEvil> 49500ft - sure
[21:09] <daveake> er H2
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[21:09] <Upu> 250g + H2 = 40km
[21:09] <adamgreig> photo looks higher than 49kft
[21:09] <Upu> yeah it does
[21:09] <Upu> its high
[21:09] <Upu> but lets speak to them and see what their kit was
[21:09] <SpeedEvil> But 40 to 50 quarters the atmospheric density
[21:10] MarkIrel_ (~MarkIrela@host86-190-57-24.range86-190.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[21:10] <SpeedEvil> So is a lot harder.
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[21:11] <Patrik_> u can see picture in that website
[21:11] <Patrik_> its not a lie
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[21:11] <daveake> picture <> proof
[21:11] MarkIreland (~MarkIrela@host86-190-57-24.range86-190.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[21:11] <daveake> The previous claim wasn't a lie either ...
[21:11] <adamgreig> pressure altimeter on the outside of the probe...
[21:11] <daveake> ... it was someone who did not understand the limitations of how he was measuring altitude
[21:12] <adamgreig> 1:49 into the video https://www.facebook.com/missionelady03/videos/964583280256504/?permPage=1
[21:12] <adamgreig> can see where this is going
[21:12] <daveake> oh dear
[21:12] <SpeedEvil> And yeah - I don't think anyone's saying lie.
[21:12] <daveake> no surprise
[21:13] <Upu> oh yeah
[21:13] <adamgreig> everyone is wearing mexstyle t-shirts :p
[21:13] <daveake> The sad thing with the Mexican one was all the kids who were convinced they had a record
[21:13] <Upu> looks like they were using pressure Patrik_ so its likely to be very inaccurate
[21:13] <Upu> but there is a GPS on there
[21:13] <Upu> and it looks like a NEO
[21:13] <adamgreig> likewise here there's a huge crowd of onlookers and a big marquee and a pro video and etc
[21:14] <Upu> so as long as its in flight mode it should have some data
[21:14] <daveake> There was aublox on the other one
[21:14] <adamgreig> 4h40m flight apparently though
[21:14] <daveake> feeding ardupilot
[21:14] <daveake> which ignores the gps altitude :/
[21:14] <daveake> yeah 4:40 sounds more reasonable than the mexican one
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDh4uK9PvJU - nonamateur launch that should get >45km in about 30 mins.
[21:15] <Patrik_> gps altitude ?
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> (cygnus)
[21:15] <Upu> yeah the "consumer" pressure sensors aren't accurate on altitude above 2km really
[21:15] <Patrik_> i dont know still work gps at that altitude
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> Patrik_: GPS altitude is altitude got from a GPS system.
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> It does.
[21:15] <Upu> GPS does work
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> With the proper GPS devices.
[21:16] <Upu> as long as they put it in flight mode
[21:16] <Upu> it goes up to 50km
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> Almost no pressure altimeters will work at 50km
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> No commonly available ones.
[21:16] <Upu> but 1.7kg on the largest latex balloon even with a slow ascent rate is unlikely to get 49km
[21:16] <adamgreig> ardupilot has a lot to answer for
[21:17] <Upu> the altitude records are dominated by Hydrogen filled Hwoyee 1600g balloons from a short period of time in 2012 (?) with sub 50g payloads
[21:17] <Upu> but anyway
[21:17] <Upu> if they want to come on here we happy to discuss it
[21:18] <Patrik_> u mean bellomondo
[21:18] <Upu> and the others
[21:18] <Upu> Xaben
[21:18] <Upu> Ava
[21:18] <daveake> Buzz
[21:18] <Upu> Buzz
[21:20] <SpeedEvil> Measuring altitude is hard.
[21:20] <Upu> anyway look we don't want to piss on their bonfire until we've spoken to them
[21:20] <Patrik_> but its not possible compare image with other already confirmed?
[21:20] <daveake> no
[21:20] <SpeedEvil> There should also be a very obvious continuous ascent at a constant speed till a slight eveling off before burst
[21:20] <Upu> nope
[21:21] <daveake> The view depends on the camera
[21:21] <daveake> They will need GPS proof
[21:21] <SpeedEvil> Patrik_: In principle, with a _LOT_ of work, and sufficient terrain variation, and ... you can pull it out. This takes a lot more skill than just overlaying it onto google earth
[21:22] <adamgreig> even then the likely accuracy is not going to be huge..
[21:23] <Patrik_> u can give me a website of gps
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> and yeah.
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> Clouds don't help.
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> Patrik_: GPS - global positioning system
[21:23] <Patrik_> i mean a gps that work at that altitude
[21:24] <SpeedEvil> ah
[21:24] <adamgreig> any of the generation 6-8 uBloxes in airborne dynamics mode will do it
[21:24] <adamgreig> it's probably that this italian flight had one on it, by the looks of things
[21:24] <adamgreig> but it might not have been set to flight mode, and it might not have been logged
[21:24] <daveake> Note that, just having one doesn't mean it's being used
[21:25] <SpeedEvil> If it's not in flight mode, what's the ceiling?
[21:25] <adamgreig> if it was in normal ground mode, it would cut out at 12km anyway (though you could reasonably accurately extrapolate altitude from that..)
[21:25] <daveake> Ardupilot (to pick a random example) ignores GPS altitude in preference to pressure-calculated altitude, by default
[21:25] <SpeedEvil> You could make a pretty good stab even from the first kilometers of ascent
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[21:26] <SpeedEvil> (where pressure alt will be fine)
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[21:26] <daveake> yeah, but you don't know if it ascended at (pretty much) the same speed, or started to float and burst sometime later
[21:26] <adamgreig> true
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[21:27] <adamgreig> it wouldn't be a proof, just informative
[21:27] <daveake> yes ofc
[21:27] <adamgreig> the pressure log will probably reveal floating
[21:27] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[21:27] <daveake> possibly ... it'll be down in the noise I'd have thought
[21:27] <SpeedEvil> you can - probably - tell when it stops linearly ascending
[21:27] <SpeedEvil> maybe
[21:30] <Upu> Patrik_ see https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/NEO-M8_DataSheet_%28UBX-13003366%29.pdf Page 6 operational limits
[21:30] <Upu> been the same since NEO6 (which I'll put money on that being a 6M)
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[21:33] <adamgreig> i think what's most surprising is the belief in the idea that you could build a big heavy standard payload and attach it to a normal off the shelf balloon and claim beforehand you are going for an altitude record, expect to get it, and then see it in your data
[21:33] <Upu> :
[21:33] <Upu> :)
[21:34] <chris_99> wouldn't it be really easy for someone to take the data too?
[21:34] <chris_99> *fake
[21:34] <adamgreig> sure
[21:34] <adamgreig> and yet no one seems to
[21:34] <chris_99> :)
[21:34] <adamgreig> I don't think anyone's trying to claim a record in bad faith here
[21:34] <chris_99> sure, i was just wondering
[21:34] <adamgreig> a million ways to do that, starting with faking the data
[21:35] <chris_99> out of interest, this may be really dumb and not possible, could you use laser range finding
[21:35] <SpeedEvil> Sure.
[21:35] <SpeedEvil> In principle.
[21:35] <Upu> it has been suggested
[21:35] <chris_99> interesting :)
[21:35] <SpeedEvil> I have a design of a laser ranger to go 4km
[21:35] <SpeedEvil> it wasn't very difficult
[21:35] <SpeedEvil> It could go 40, with some software changes I think
[21:36] <SpeedEvil> and a couple of new lenses
[21:36] <chris_99> what kind of power would you need for 4km?
[21:36] <chris_99> and what type of range finder was that?
[21:36] <adamgreig> cygnus prepping http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html
[21:36] <adamgreig> 10m or so
[21:36] <SpeedEvil> 4W IR laser, swept frequency modulation from 1MHz to 50MHz or so, monitor the reflected envelope signal.
[21:36] <adamgreig> got this rpi onboard too i guess
[21:36] <daveake> 2 of them
[21:36] <adamgreig> in case one breaks? ;)
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[21:36] <daveake> pass :)
[21:37] <SpeedEvil> Boresighted send and receive lenses, and 10nm half-width filter really helps
[21:37] <daveake> Probably a pile of SD cards too :)
[21:37] <adamgreig> t-4m and hold
[21:37] <patrik_> dc
[21:37] <chris_99> why do you need to sweep the laser SpeedEvil?
[21:37] <Upu> wb patrik_
[21:37] <SpeedEvil> chris_99: because it was the easy way to do ranging.
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[21:37] <SpeedEvil> chris_99: you sample the photodiode when the laser is off, and compare the average return rate at various frequencies.
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[21:38] <chris_99> ah ok, would that still make it a ToF based system i guess?
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> chris_99: for a simple distant plate, you get maximums where the frequency is an integral number of wavelengths
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[21:38] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[21:39] <chris_99> how would you clock the time from the pulse emission to reception?
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> You don't.
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[21:39] <SpeedEvil> You're modulating the laser at 1MHz and sampling when the laser is off, and integrating the whole of that signal.
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> you then try at 1.001MHz
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> and repeat
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[21:40] <adamgreig> t-10 go
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> you then take the results of the 5000 or whatever frequency bins, and compute the distance
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[21:41] <adamgreig> 4min sorry
[21:41] <Upu> is this the one with the Pi thing in it ?
[21:41] <adamgreig> yea
[21:41] <patrik_> speed
[21:42] <adamgreig> two of them, daveake tells me
[21:42] <Laurenceb> launch at :45 ?
[21:42] <adamgreig> :45:47
[21:42] <patrik_> can u give me a gps website lik i ask before
[21:42] <Laurenceb> ok
[21:42] <Upu> 21:30] <Upu> Patrik_ see https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/NEO-M8_DataSheet_%28UBX-13003366%29.pdf Page 6 operational limits
[21:42] <Upu> [21:31] <Upu> been the same since NEO6 (which I'll put money on that being a 6M)
[21:42] <adamgreig> t-3:00
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=96 - for example
[21:43] <Upu> But patrik_ it has to be in dynamic model 6 (or 7/8) and if they are using Ardupilot it doesn't do this (result = max alt =12km from GPS)
[21:43] <SpeedEvil> the above GPS which it looked like was on the balloon will read altitude if configured properly
[21:43] <Upu> Also Ardupilot by default uses pressure altitude
[21:43] <Upu> which is totally inaccurate above 2km
[21:44] <Upu> well not as accurate as GPS
[21:44] <Upu> I think the author of Ardupilot said it uses a very simple atmospheric model to turn pressure into alt
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[21:45] <SpeedEvil> And unfortunately no common pressure sensors work >30km or so.
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> Or at least - are specified to
[21:46] <patrik_> they told me that its too slow mesure altitude with gps
[21:46] <patrik_> but the one i talk it's not a tecnicann
[21:46] <Upu> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/Images/HAB/horus15_5_alt_pressure.png
[21:46] <patrik_> he is just responsable of video
[21:46] <Upu> thats a BMP085 module
[21:46] <Upu> note it drops out entirely
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[21:47] <patrik_> im trying to contact another one that know all elettroci use
[21:47] <Upu> GPS alt is every second normally
[21:47] <Upu> sure
[21:47] <patrik_> elettronic
[21:47] <Upu> I'd be interested to know what balloon was used
[21:47] <Upu> make and weigh
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[21:51] <chris_99> SpeedEvil, sorry i'm somewhat confused, so the photodiode is attached to an ADC presumably? wouldn't the clock rate of that, have a bearing on the resolution?
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> chris_99: it samples when the LASER is off
[21:52] <SpeedEvil> The ADC can run at a few Khz
[21:52] <SpeedEvil> It's only sampling the average return at the base frequency - it is not trying to sample and find the bounce.
[21:54] <SpeedEvil> http://www.radartutorial.eu/02.basics/Frequency%20Modulated%20Continuous%20Wave%20Radar.en.html
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[21:55] <chris_99> cheers i'll read through that
[21:55] <patrik_> but can u misure altitude with another system
[21:55] <patrik_> ?
[21:55] <patrik_> not gps not pressure
[21:56] <Upu> possibly but GPS is the only cost effect and accurate method
[21:56] <patrik_> i see
[21:57] <patrik_> actyually that gps its cost nothoing
[21:57] <adamgreig> pressure can be done well up to maybe 20 or 30km i think, just not by ardupilot
[21:57] <SpeedEvil> The GPS you have is quite adequate, if used properly. Ardupilot does not.
[21:57] <Laurenceb> will cygnus be flying over UK?
[21:58] <Upu> if you're claiming altitude records with ARHAB (which are the unofficial "official" holder of amateur balloon records) you'll need peer reviewed GPS logs
[21:58] <daveake> yes
[21:58] <adamgreig> it's mating with the iss Laurenceb
[21:58] <SpeedEvil> hawt
[21:59] <Upu> do you know what balloon it was patrik_ ?
[21:59] <patrik_> nope
[21:59] <Upu> ok
[22:00] <patrik_> this chat is always open
[22:00] <patrik_> ?
[22:00] <Upu> yep 24/7/365
[22:00] <Upu> usually someone about
[22:03] <adamgreig> Laurenceb: it passed over the UK six minutes ago actually
[22:03] <Laurenceb> cygnus didint
[22:03] <Laurenceb> its coming straight for us
[22:03] <adamgreig> iss did with cygnus in hot pursuit :P
[22:03] <patrik_> some expert recognize from video which gps use ?
[22:03] <adamgreig> oh yea, i see the little minimap now
[22:03] <Laurenceb> grr going to burn out soon
[22:03] <adamgreig> meco
[22:04] <chris_99> SpeedEvil, that's very interesting, one thing i don't quite get though is this ' In FM-CW radar are measured the differences in phase or frequency between the actually transmitted and the received signal. ' where does the frequency shift come from, if both the receiver and object who's distance is being measured are static
[22:04] <adamgreig> you keep changing the transmitted frequency
[22:05] <adamgreig> the frequency you receive back will depend on what frequency you were transmitting when the signal left you
[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> did the atlas fly?
[22:05] <adamgreig> say you transmit 1MHz at 0.0s and increase up to 10MHz at 0.1s
[22:05] <daveake> yes all good
[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> yay
[22:05] <adamgreig> the signal that left you at 0.0s takes 0.05s to travel to the target, and 0.05s to return again
[22:05] <adamgreig> so at 0.1s you're transmitting 10MHz, but you receive a signal that's 1MHz
[22:06] <adamgreig> by looking at the incoming frequency you know you're receiving a signal you transmitted 0.1s ago, so the target must be 0.05s away
[22:06] <adamgreig> chris_99: ^
[22:06] <chris_99> oh thanks a lot!
[22:06] <chris_99> that makes sense
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[22:34] <mfa298> watching (most of) that record video, it does feel a bit suspicious. For one thing, if daveake followed the same principles hed have 30 minutes of credits on his live streams of which 25 mins would be sponsors.
[22:34] <daveake> lol
[22:36] <daveake> Without using a specially made balloon, nobody can have any confidence of getting the altitude record. And anyone who knows what they're doing wouldn't fly a spot plus another 1kg or so of payload.
[22:36] <daveake> But bottom line is, is there a GPS log of the flight?
[22:38] <SpeedEvil> A pressure log even would be informative.
[22:39] <daveake> yes
[22:39] <mfa298> that balloon also looked very spepherical when on the ground, where most the streams / images of most launches I've see there's usually plenty of space to fill still (although that could have been an effect of them using a much bigger balloon (making assumptions there)
[22:40] <daveake> It's because the payload is so heavy
[22:40] <daveake> So lots of gas needed just to lift it
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[22:41] <daveake> For the lightweight 1600g launches, the gas isn't enough to even maintain the balloon's shape
[22:43] <mfa298> It also looked like the couple of gauages they overlaid on the video are fairly useless. Numerical value for altitude didn't seem to change, and the speed isunlikely to be just ascent rate)
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[22:44] <mfa298> even for some of the heavier launches I don't remember the balloons being that spherical.
[22:46] <mfa298> will certainly be interesting to see what details they make public
[22:48] <daveake> " Numerical value for altitude didn't seem to change" ... alttiude reading behavour was one of the nails in the coffin for the Mexican flight.
[22:52] <patrik_> thay use 12000 liter of helium if i remember correct
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[22:56] <daveake> I'm sure they didn't
[22:57] <adamgreig> hmm
[22:57] <adamgreig> that's one full size cylinder and one smallish cylinder
[22:57] <adamgreig> an awful lot of gas
[22:57] <adamgreig> it looks like from the facebook photos they _had_ that much helium available
[22:57] <daveake> ok
[22:57] <adamgreig> but it would be a heck of a lot to put in one balloon
[22:57] <daveake> Balloon doesn't look enormous
[22:57] <adamgreig> balloon looks like about 3kL is my guess
[22:58] <daveake> I think it's a 3000g Totex ... thick/short neck
[22:58] <adamgreig> hmm
[22:59] <adamgreig> yea neck looks like a totex
[22:59] <adamgreig> maybe around 4kL helium
[22:59] <patrik_> but if they use only pressure sensor for misure altitude how much could be the eroor
[22:59] <adamgreig> 12 would be gigantic
[22:59] <daveake> 11.5kg neck lift if it was 12000L
[22:59] <adamgreig> lol
[22:59] <adamgreig> that's doable...
[22:59] <daveake> it is
[22:59] <adamgreig> ain't gonna go that high though
[22:59] <daveake> but not for that flight time
[22:59] <daveake> or altitude
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[23:00] <daveake> None of it adds up (which sounds familiar)
[23:00] <daveake> yes patrik_ pressure sensor would explain a lot
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[23:10] <chris_99> just reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_altitude_record#Unmanned_gas_balloon can you not buy consumer balloons that are that thin?
[23:14] <craag> not big enough ones
[23:14] <craag> quite a niche market!
[23:14] <chris_99> mmm
[23:14] <daveake> I thought the market was for millions of balloons billions of lives :p
[23:15] <craag> and there's a good talk by dan bowen on how hard it is to actually make them
[23:15] <craag> hehe
[23:15] <craag> haven't heard from the soton student who interned with them
[23:15] <fsphil> no rtty from the cygnus payload. do these people even know what they're doing
[23:15] <daveake> lol
[23:16] <daveake> All they needed to do was slap an rfm22b on the outside somewhere
[23:16] <craag> everyone's using lora now fsphil
[23:16] <craag> with custom sync codes just for giggles
[23:16] <fsphil> ah those space rated modules
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[23:36] <patrik_> what u mean mfa298
[23:37] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03K5EWM-8 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K5EWM-8
[23:39] <fsphil> JAXA spacecraft entering orbit around Venus atm
[23:39] <fsphil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6-BUPTZVKA
[23:40] <fsphil> I don't think I remember this one even launching
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[00:00] --- Mon Dec 7 2015