highaltitude.log.20151204

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[04:44] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Impala_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Impala_chase
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[08:32] <Chimpusmaximus> daveake:i'll have to find some work todo now today :-)
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[08:39] <daveake> Yeah, sorry, combination of changeable predictions decising not to change over the last 48 hours
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[08:47] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KK6UWV-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KK6UWV-11
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[09:23] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03USER_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=USER_chase
[09:24] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DL1MX_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL1MX_chase
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[09:43] <pb0ahx> !flights
[09:43] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: Current flights: 03ASTROPI 10(617e), 03PrjHeT 10(c60e)
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[09:45] <Matt_PrjHet> Sadly we're going to have to cancel today due to the risk of an earlier burst bring us down over Luton or Stanstead.
[09:45] <Matt_PrjHet> It's a sad day for the Essex Space Agency
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[09:52] <fsphil> good day, in that you're not landing on a major airport. or luton
[09:54] <fsphil> but yes weather delays can be annoying
[10:00] <daveake> Yeah, launch winds iffy but the big problem is the choice of airports to land near
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[10:17] <LunarWork> hello
[10:18] <daveake> hello
[10:20] <LunarWork> that moment you open up the SD contents of the GoPro, seeing that your friend engaged timelapse mode and not video mode
[10:22] <daveake> oops
[10:22] <daveake> I've had worse
[10:22] <LunarWork> 18783 images
[10:22] <daveake> Customer supplied the gopro, and set it up themselves
[10:22] <daveake> In "overwrite when full" mode
[10:23] <daveake> Which is not good if a) you land it in a tree and have to leave it overnight, and b) the batteries last till the next day
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[10:23] <LunarWork> yeah
[10:23] <LunarWork> like on NEAR
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[10:26] <LunarWork> when the probe landed on Eros and the final lines of the final images were lost because there was a signal interruption upon landing I think
[10:26] <LunarWork> and then the memory was overwritten by new data
[10:27] <LunarWork> also, don't use unsigned int for temperatures
[10:28] <LunarWork> had some fun time copying a lot of data lines and doing the 2^16-x stuff with them
[10:28] <daveake> ha
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[11:12] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03ASTROPI after 032 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ASTROPI
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[11:15] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03LCARS_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=LCARS_chase
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[11:28] <chris_99> !flights
[11:28] <SpacenearUS> 03chris_99: Current flights: 03ASTROPI 10(617e), 03PrjHeT 10(c60e)
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[12:53] <chris_99> out of interest, what height do you guys have a colinear antennas positioned
[12:54] <eroomde> as high as possible
[12:54] <eroomde> but no higher
[12:54] <UpuWork> +1
[12:55] <chris_99> hehe
[12:56] <fsphil> tis true
[12:56] <fsphil> previously had it on a 3m pole attached to the chimney
[12:57] <chris_99> you reckon ill get reasonable reception pointing a 2m antenna from the second floor of a house?
[12:57] <daveake> All depends on the sourroundings
[12:57] <eroomde> it really would be much better on the roof
[12:57] <daveake> Ideally you want it higher than anything else
[12:57] <chris_99> mm gotcha
[12:57] <eroomde> without obstructions nearby
[13:00] <fsphil> and good quality coax
[13:01] <eroomde> yes definitely
[13:01] <eroomde> even a masthead premp might be worth considering
[13:01] <fsphil> yeah. though I'm ware of putting electronics up on the roof
[13:01] <fsphil> difficult to access if it breaks
[13:02] <eroomde> make it so it won't break :)
[13:02] <eroomde> he said
[13:02] <fsphil> I've had tv masthead amps up there for decades without issue, so they're probably fine
[13:03] <eroomde> yeah it's basically just one transistor and 3-4 passives
[13:03] <eroomde> apart from lightning or accidental tv there's little to break it
[13:03] <eroomde> tx*
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[13:47] <tridor> Hello, can anyone give advice on antennas to use to receive from our ntx2b 430Mhz using a basic SDR receiver?
[13:48] <tridor> plan to build a mobile rig for chasing.....
[13:48] <tridor> and one at base
[13:48] <tridor> yagi? colinear?
[13:48] <Laurenceb_> http://cannae.com/ <- lulz
[13:48] <eroomde> for chasing, a normal mag-mount for the car roof
[13:48] <eroomde> for general base rx, a colinear
[13:49] <eroomde> have a yagi to hand but you don't need one and it doesn't need to be big
[13:49] <eroomde> i keep one in the boot of the car for direction finding when chasing if there isn't a gps fix on landing, which rarely happens
[13:53] <tridor> Can anyone post any links to suitable antennas? I am not a radio amateur and it is a minefield trying work out what to get :-)
[13:55] <eroomde> watson w50 is a popular colinear for base station
[13:55] <eroomde> any old 1/4 wave magmount will do for car chasing
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[13:56] <tridor> that is a huge help, thanks
[13:56] <eroomde> i believe the diamond x50 is basically the same thing
[13:56] <eroomde> anyway, lots of people happy with both
[13:57] Haxxa (3aa1008f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.58.161.0.143) joined #highaltitude.
[13:57] <Haxxa> Hello
[13:58] <Haxxa> I would like to discuss the opposite of high alt. - the extreme depths of the sea...
[13:58] <Haxxa> I would love to send a capsule into a trench with an auto realesed weight to record the depths of the ocean using a microcontroller etc.
[13:59] <Haxxa> Though I'm finding it hard to find a BOM suitable for such endeavours
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[14:00] <SpeedEvil> see:
[14:00] <eroomde> Haxxa: i don't understand the bom comment
[14:00] <eroomde> you have to design something, right?
[14:00] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QK9ZYrqPHfI
[14:00] <eroomde> you design it first, then generate a bom from your design
[14:00] <SpeedEvil> The electronics is basically irrelevant
[14:01] <SpeedEvil> It plays no part whatsoever in the design of the pressure hull
[14:02] <ballooon> does anyone know where to buy material for a super pressure balloon
[14:02] <eroomde> ballooon: do you know what material you want?
[14:02] <SpeedEvil> How big?
[14:02] <SpeedEvil> To what alt.
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[14:03] <ballooon> either LLDPE or polypropylene
[14:04] <ballooon> to make a small amateur super pressure balloon
[14:05] <ballooon> we are also open to other suggestions
[14:06] <SpeedEvil> There have been 'small balloons' which go round the world multiple times with a superpressure balloon under a meter in diameter
[14:07] <SpeedEvil> Are you trying to make one to lift a kilo or a gram? To 1km, or 50km?
[14:07] <SpeedEvil> http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-64/
[14:07] <SpeedEvil> See 'b64 envelope'
[14:08] <ballooon> ya thats what we want to accomplish but we dont know where to buy the material and the payload is about 11 grams
[14:09] <ballooon> we have seen bodnars paylod but cant get in contact with him
[14:11] <eroomde> he's hard to got hold of
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[14:16] <Haxxa> How would a gas can fair filled with oil with 2000 psi? - I haven't researched any of this but more just curious about what would be involved...
[14:20] <eroomde> it would fair the same as if it had gas in at 2000psi
[14:21] <eroomde> forces are the same
[14:21] <Laurenceb_> <ballooon> either LLDPE or polypropylene
[14:21] <Laurenceb_> sounds like a poor choice
[14:21] <eroomde> sealing more viscous things is easier too
[14:21] <eroomde> usually
[14:22] <Laurenceb_> you need EVOH laminate
[14:22] <Laurenceb_> B-64 was LDPE-EVOH-Nylon6
[14:23] <Laurenceb_> rather hard to get hold of
[14:23] <eroomde> ballooon: this is the good shit (laurence knows) so you should listen ^
[14:23] <Laurenceb_> I managed to get some samples from Japan
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[14:23] <Laurenceb_> but Leo has them now, so sorry :P
[14:23] <eroomde> Haxxa: not that the pressure across a vessel should be very low in a subsea environment
[14:23] <eroomde> if it's liquid-filled
[14:24] <Laurenceb_> Google are now using a similar laminate for loon
[14:24] <Laurenceb_> these guys are rumoured to be involved in loon http://www.5layer.com/
[14:25] <Haxxa> ok it seems beyond the hopes of a simple hobbyist :( - never mind I will look elsewhere - the presure of the ocean is insane at such depths
[14:25] <Haxxa> Thanks for ionput on materials anyway guys
[14:26] <eroomde> Haxxa: what?
[14:26] <eroomde> how did you conclude that?
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: I prefer my first reading of the URL
[14:27] <eroomde> this sounds quite achievable to me
[14:27] <Laurenceb_> submersibles sound like a ton of fun
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> http://imgur.com/gallery/idDtAqg
[14:27] <Laurenceb_> pity they are the opposite of the channel subject lol
[14:27] <Laurenceb_> also radio comms are harder
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> Haxxa: In principle, there is nothing difficult about cutting up a gas cylinder, and doing this with it, pressurising it with oil.
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> Haxxa: you just have to be very, very careful not to get any air in.
[14:28] <eroomde> exactly. You just suddenly concluded it was too hard, as if anything on this channel has even come close to sugeesting that, which it definitely hasn't
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> Or having a pressure equalising bellows.
[14:28] <eroomde> this is a doable thing
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> It is technically annoying.
[14:29] <Laurenceb_> personally I'd go for some sort of oil or 3M fluid stuff immersion
[14:29] <eroomde> same
[14:29] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: Oh
[14:29] <Laurenceb_> seems so much saner
[14:29] <Haxxa> How would recovery work? Drift would be significant once its on the surface?
[14:29] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: I thought '5 layer' was going to refer to networking layers
[14:29] <Laurenceb_> Haxxa: recovery... what recovery
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> Haxxa: Boats are expensive.
[14:30] <eroomde> Haxxa: fill it with keroscene, or something slightly ligher than water, so that it's boyant
[14:30] <Haxxa> Well finding it after it floats up
[14:30] <eroomde> Haxxa, then ballast it with steel weights held on with electromagnets or something
[14:30] <eroomde> Haxxa: then when you want to come back up, release the weights
[14:30] <Haxxa> eroomde: thats the plan
[14:30] <eroomde> and it'll naturally just float back up
[14:30] <eroomde> then just go with a satellite modem
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> GPS and sat-coms in principle works for getting the data back
[14:30] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Just let the batteries go flat and release the magnets!
[14:30] <eroomde> rockblock or something
[14:31] <eroomde> Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: that is what they did back in the day
[14:31] <eroomde> as a failsafe if power loss
[14:31] <Haxxa> so don't recover it just use sat?
[14:31] <eroomde> i would recover it
[14:31] <eroomde> why not
[14:31] <eroomde> could be fun
[14:31] <SpeedEvil> https://xkcd.com/585/
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[14:31] <Laurenceb_> then you can look at the pictures of muddy gloop
[14:31] <SpeedEvil> Recovery will be quite expensive unless you own your own boar.
[14:31] <SpeedEvil> Boat
[14:31] <Laurenceb_> hmm maybe this isnt so cool
[14:31] <Haxxa> sure but say it drifts 3km on return while floating up
[14:31] <Haxxa> then how would I find it
[14:32] <Laurenceb_> radio tracker
[14:32] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> GPS and Sat-com to get the position back
[14:32] <Laurenceb_> should work over 3km or so
[14:32] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> But your going to need a boat to get over a Trench anyway ?
[14:33] <Haxxa> ok so in terms of doing this I could just get a gas tank put electronics in it - and seal it - then drop in ocean and bob's your sister right?
[14:34] <eroomde> as long as it's negatively bouyant, i reckon so
[14:34] <eroomde> and full of fluid
[14:34] <Haxxa> Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: I'm going on a crusie soon I'll just through it off
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[14:34] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> What pressure would most SMD components work to when in an oil container leave it open to the pressure maybe ?
[14:35] <Laurenceb_> pressure shouldnt effect them
[14:35] <Laurenceb_> well.. maybe insane pressures
[14:35] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> That's what I'm thinking, other than electrloytics!
[14:35] <Laurenceb_> that cause the silicon crystal structure to significantly distort
[14:35] <Laurenceb_> lol
[14:36] <Laurenceb_> centre of Jupiter might be overkill
[14:36] <Haxxa> So in terms of resealing it - say I cut it in half - how would one reseal? furthermore - I want a camera and led to film with could I simply cut holes and add some acrylic view holes?
[14:36] <eroomde> i read an article about nasa building custom wind tunnels to simulate jupiter atmospheric entry
[14:36] <eroomde> it was batty
[14:36] <Haxxa> also would pcb be directly exposed to oil or in air tight container?
[14:37] <eroomde> Haxxa: NO AIR ANYWHERE
[14:37] <eroomde> please tattoo that to the insude of your eyelids
[14:37] <Laurenceb_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIbnl3Pj15w
[14:37] <eroomde> everything must be immersed in fluid
[14:37] <eroomde> Haxxa: cut 'it' in half - i don't know what 'it' is
[14:37] <Haxxa> ok so go to vet and ask for horse tranquilliser
[14:37] <Haxxa> got it :)
[14:37] <eroomde> can you find some sort of steel pressure vessel?
[14:38] <Haxxa> the gas canister
[14:38] <eroomde> something stainless with a flange at each end, you could put the lens on the flange
[14:38] <eroomde> oh i see
[14:38] <Haxxa> I was thinking of a welding gas canister
[14:38] <eroomde> you might find something with flanges easier to work on
[14:38] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[14:38] <eroomde> easier to take apart and put back together
[14:38] <Laurenceb_> yeah cameras may be an issue
[14:39] <Laurenceb_> fluid will screw with the lenses
[14:39] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: not necessarily
[14:39] <Haxxa> Laurenceb_: pics or it didn't happen
[14:39] <eroomde> but i wouldn't do anything beyond dump simple fixed focal length, manual focus stuff
[14:40] <Haxxa> Sensor data is boring for presentations
[14:40] <eroomde> dumb*
[14:40] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Why the pressure vessel ? Leave it immersed in clear liquid, open to the sea at the bottom.
[14:40] <Laurenceb_> yeah, the more complex the lens system the more likely it will be unfixable
[14:40] <eroomde> i wouldn't want all that salt water about the place Geoff-G8DHE-Lap
[14:40] <eroomde> i'd rather keep things clean and separate
[14:41] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> No fill the tank with oil, electronics in oil, but open at bottom like a diving bell.
[14:41] <Laurenceb_> it might spill?
[14:41] <Laurenceb_> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Exval.jpeg
[14:41] <Haxxa> Laurenceb_: SO if it does keep most of stuff at top?
[14:42] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> not with lighter oil at top and weight around bottom ?
[14:42] <Haxxa> Slight spilling is ok
[14:42] <Laurenceb_> in b4 greenpeace
[14:42] <Haxxa> Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: Currents can be strong
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[14:43] <eroomde> yeah - i'm assuming this is going in a flight case then on the4 deck of a boat and you're literally throwing it overboard
[14:43] <Haxxa> SO I could Just cut can at the bottom and have camera facing down towards weight and thus no need to cut flanges
[14:43] <eroomde> in which case i'd want it to be sealed and easy to work on
[14:43] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Its never going to be a one off you would have to test ideas out first.
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[14:43] <Laurenceb_> maybe we could have a micro submersible dropped from a picoballoon
[14:44] <Laurenceb_> /silly idea
[14:44] <Haxxa> eroomde: Idealy yes but open to alternatives
[14:44] <Haxxa> Laurenceb_: why?
[14:44] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> thin clear plastic membrane at bottom, to keep oil in above surface, but dissolve/release once in water ?
[14:44] <Haxxa> That would be perfect no boat hire needed
[14:44] <Laurenceb_> lol
[14:44] <Haxxa> Laurenceb_: wasn't kidding?
[14:45] <Haxxa> Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: But why is that better then a Gas Canister - basically same thing now
[14:45] <eroomde> Haxxa: you're not going to get an oil-filled deep-sea exploration capsule, with days of battery life and a sat modem, and ballast release systems, under a pico balloon
[14:46] <Haxxa> eroomde: ok get a bigger ballon
[14:47] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> You were talking about a pressure vessel, I'm talking about leaving the vessel open so no pressure across it, merely pressure of sea above comressing the oil with the electrnoics in it.
[14:47] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> compressing *
[14:48] <Haxxa> Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: Ok fair point I had a dud moment then didn't consider that
[14:49] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Bigger problem will be will batteries survive high external pressures ?
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[14:50] <Laurenceb_> they should be ok if they are gas free
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[14:51] <eroomde> i'm just not seeing how this open-sided one solves any problems
[14:51] <eroomde> it just puts absolutely loads of constraints on deployment
[14:52] <Haxxa> Are the cameras discussed earlier cheap - what ball park figures are we looking at?
[14:52] <eroomde> and makes it much more sensitive to being knocked around on the way down and up
[14:52] <Laurenceb_> a plastic case should be flexible enough
[14:52] <Laurenceb_> to equalize pressure
[14:52] <eroomde> Haxxa: we haven't discussed any cameras to the point of picking cameras
[14:52] <eroomde> unless i've missed something
[14:53] <eroomde> i'd just get an older generation digital SLR
[14:53] <Laurenceb_> https://veuwer.com/i/3fhv.jpg
[14:53] <eroomde> and a decent old prime camera lens
[14:53] <eroomde> like an old nikon 24mm or something
[14:53] <eroomde> and set the focus manually
[14:53] <Haxxa> eroomde: no just basic types - I like to jump ahead - still deciding if this is feasible within my budget - of it costs 2k for example for entire setup it won't happen
[14:53] <Haxxa> *if
[14:54] <Laurenceb_> what about webcam and rpi ?
[14:54] <eroomde> see what you can get for £50!
[14:54] <eroomde> has to be manual-everything
[14:54] <Haxxa> Laurenceb_: thats what I had in mind
[14:54] <Laurenceb_> although that involves embedded linux
[14:54] <Laurenceb_> maybe more trouble than its worth
[14:54] <eroomde> if you're going to the bottom of the ocean, for gods sake take a proper camera
[14:54] <eroomde> not some rpi bollocks
[14:54] <eroomde> decent big glass
[14:54] <Laurenceb_> lol
[14:54] <eroomde> decent iso sensitivity
[14:54] <eroomde> completely manual controls
[14:55] <Haxxa> eroomde: I know nothing about cameras - so no ideas on what era and type match this
[14:55] <eroomde> well, see what you can get for £50-£100
[14:55] <eroomde> an old nikon DXXX
[14:56] <eroomde> where XXX is some number
[14:56] <eroomde> then you can use old nikon lenses which are still compatible
[14:56] <eroomde> and have a large light collecting area
[14:56] <eroomde> you'll need lights
[14:56] <Laurenceb_> nikon lenses will be multi element
[14:56] <eroomde> yes
[14:56] <Laurenceb_> dunno if that will work
[14:56] <eroomde> but you can also take them apart with a 50 pence peice
[14:56] <Laurenceb_> its all nonlinear and horrible
[14:57] <Laurenceb_> heh true
[14:57] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Cameras will expect lenses with air filling, need to adjust focus to cater for a different clear liquid.
[14:58] <Laurenceb_> yes, but once you have a complex multi element system, its not so easy
[14:59] <Laurenceb_> they use the elements to cancel out higher order effects
[14:59] <Laurenceb_> with fluid in the middle it will all go to pot
[14:59] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> but if not then you must go for an expensive heavy pressure vessel....
[15:00] <Laurenceb_> yeah, I'd try using a single lens camera
[15:00] <Laurenceb_> like Rpi camera lol
[15:00] <Haxxa> say I had a tiny cubic millimeter of air left in tank wht would happen?
[15:00] <SpeedEvil> 1mm^3 is not an issue
[15:01] <Haxxa> ok 20cm
[15:01] <Haxxa> ^3
[15:01] <Laurenceb_> http://img01.taobaocdn.com/imgextra/i1/110546110/T2YqJTXxlaXXXXXXXX_!!110546110.jpg
[15:01] <SpeedEvil> the problem is energy stored in a sealed tank varies with the pressure of air
[15:01] <Haxxa> like do I expect it to explode or burst or something?
[15:02] <Laurenceb_> youd need to dismantle the camera and make sure inside is flooded
[15:02] <Laurenceb_> the air will just get compressed
[15:02] <Laurenceb_> no big issue there
[15:02] <Haxxa> Laurenceb_: Is that the inside of the rpi cam
[15:02] <Laurenceb_> yes
[15:03] <Haxxa> so I'm assuming as air gets compressed lens distorts and bad image?
[15:03] <Laurenceb_> no
[15:03] <Laurenceb_> if it had air inside it would just implode
[15:04] <Ben-AstroSoc> In terms of launching a glider how 'pushing it' is a payload weight of 1.6KG?
[15:04] <Haxxa> So Fill container with oil - take lens of and rebuild in oil and put into canister
[15:04] <Haxxa> So is the open system or presure system prefered - two have been discussed
[15:05] <eroomde> Ben-AstroSoc: how pushing it will your insurers or the CAA allow?
[15:05] <eroomde> doesn't matter what we think really
[15:05] <daveake> Ben-AstroSoc As far as I know the only UK HAB-released glider, with CAA approval anyway, was a paper plane
[15:05] <Ben-AstroSoc> I'm fairly certain the CAA limits are nowhere near 1.5kg
[15:05] <daveake> Just speak to them
[15:05] <eroomde> Haxxa: no one is really suggesting building a pressurised system
[15:06] <eroomde> where you make a pressure vessel to withstand external pressures
[15:06] <eroomde> that's going to be too hard for you
[15:06] <Haxxa> eroomde: fair enough
[15:06] <eroomde> what i was suggesting however is something where the inner fluid is contained by a vessel
[15:06] <eroomde> but the vessel doesn't have a huge pressure difference across it
[15:06] <eroomde> it can flex and so on
[15:06] <Haxxa> so its easier to deploy
[15:08] <Haxxa> I never studied fluid physics - but wouldn't oil and water compress at different rates wouldn't the pressure still be an issue?
[15:08] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> In essence an oil filled ballon surrounded by a riged structure to give some level of support
[15:08] <eroomde> Haxxa: no
[15:08] <eroomde> not at all
[15:08] <Haxxa> eroomde: k
[15:08] <eroomde> i don't even think the notion of compressing at different rates is a thing
[15:09] <eroomde> water and oil are both, for all practical purposes here, incompressible
[15:10] <Haxxa> ok so doesn't Geoff-G8DHE-Lap have a point why not use something basic like a ballon over a metal gas tank
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[15:10] <Ben-AstroSoc> daveake: we'd be willing to fly in europe if CAA regulations absolutely shut us down (glider flight, still doing regular HAB launch beforehand)
[15:10] <eroomde> if you really want to use both a balloon and a gas tank, you can
[15:10] <eroomde> both seem a bit arbitrary to me
[15:10] <eroomde> but yes, that's the principle
[15:11] <eroomde> i'd make something solid and out of stainless steel because you're going to spend ages in salt water, but that's just me
[15:11] <eroomde> but i'm not designing an pressure vessel, that's my point. jsut a sealed thing
[15:11] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> put the oil filled ballon inside the gas tank with the bottom cut off, tank carries the weights and release mech. Ballon then rises when released with electronics etc.
[15:11] <Laurenceb_> actually they are going to compress by differing amounts
[15:11] <Haxxa> eroomde: a few hours tops?
[15:11] <Haxxa> sink to bottom and rise again
[15:11] <Laurenceb_> but its a tiny effect compared to the vessel flexibility
[15:11] <eroomde> Haxxa: i assume you'll be testing this though
[15:12] <eroomde> to try stuff without testing is to ask for failure and to deserve failure
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[15:12] <eroomde> most of what i design is designed with a (hard-earned) appreciation of the fact that a widget spends 99% of its life being worked on or tested, and 1% of its life doing the headline thing its meant to do
[15:13] <eroomde> this is true for habs, experimental rocket engines, circuit boards, whatever
[15:13] <eroomde> this is for prototypes and experiments rather than mass-produced products
[15:13] <eroomde> if that's not obvious
[15:13] <Haxxa> eroomde: Kind of expect that products would be tested lol
[15:14] <Haxxa> would be bad if a car was never tested on road before sale
[15:14] <Haxxa> but I get your point
[15:14] <eroomde> so that's why i'm suggesting that if you're designing this thing to have an operational life of 'a few hours tops' then you're probably asking for trouble
[15:14] <eroomde> i'd make it easy to work on and not skimp on robustness
[15:15] <eroomde> if you calculate the trip will only be 6hrs, give it at least 2-3 days of battery life
[15:15] <eroomde> and indefinite salt-water exposure
[15:16] <eroomde> if a balloon stretched over a hacksawed off gas cylinder is likely to get punctured by swarf or a spiny fish of a rock on the sea bed, don't use a balloon
[15:16] <Haxxa> Ok so apart from the case and camera what other pragmatic concerns exist?
[15:16] <eroomde> all of them
[15:16] <Haxxa> ok sure but major ones that are notable
[15:16] <eroomde> look, I don't mean to sound patronising, but i'm going about this at some length
[15:17] <eroomde> if i'm approached to design an experimental widget, i have a think (by myself) and a chat like you're doing now, but then i just have a first pass at a design
[15:17] <eroomde> and then once you've actually had a first pass at a design - batteries, where the wires go, where you put the holes, etc
[15:17] <eroomde> then you actually start to think about what's important
[15:17] <eroomde> that's a vital part of the process that you shouldn't outsource to me :)
[15:18] <eroomde> but if you want what i'd be thinking about, it'd be the penetrations - gps antenna? comms antenna? things to control electromagnets or other stuff to release ballast?
[15:18] <Haxxa> sure but I acknowledge there are much smarter people than me who are going to make me think about things that I wouldn't before even attempting a 1st design
[15:19] <eroomde> how long does it actually take to descend, and where am i dropping it? 2 miles off the coast or the mariana trench?
[15:19] <Ben-AstroSoc> you ought to do a comms buoy, I saw someone do something with something similar a while back
[15:19] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Depth measurement will be interesting, need a reference cell to compare against, which needs to handle the overpressure ?
[15:19] <eroomde> am i actually going to recovery it, if so how? if i'm not, how do i get pic and sensor data back?
[15:19] <Haxxa> Any similar projects for reference that woudl be a goos place to start....
[15:19] <eroomde> how will it stay stable on the way up and down?
[15:20] <eroomde> Haxxa: i agree
[15:20] <Haxxa> I need to sleep too - my typing is leading towards illegible
[15:20] <Laurenceb_> yeah depth measurement could be tricky
[15:21] <Laurenceb_> dunno if you can get sealed pressure sensors with the right range
[15:21] <eroomde> doubt it
[15:21] <Ben-AstroSoc> if you had a reference pressure at the surface you could do it relatively easy right?
[15:21] <Laurenceb_> thats not the problem
[15:21] <Laurenceb_> the problem is measuring the pressure
[15:21] <eroomde> say you have a cylindrical steel pressure vessel with a pair of flanges at each end
[15:21] <eroomde> and plates over the flanges
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[15:21] <eroomde> you could capacitatively measure the distance between plates
[15:22] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Depends on depth, you've got to keep the reference steady then your back to pressure vessel on a tiny scale.
[15:22] <Laurenceb_> or just use a strain gugge
[15:22] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[15:22] <Laurenceb_> digikey time
[15:22] <eroomde> yeah a strain guage possibly
[15:22] <Laurenceb_> holy shit 26k sensors on digikey
[15:23] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> ? what would the strain guage be measuring if its all at the same pressure ?
[15:23] <Ben-AstroSoc> you could bodge it and see if you could find one of those foil disks that burst at pressure, find one at the depth youw ant to hit >_>
[15:23] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Ah like that idea!
[15:23] <Haxxa> ok guys good night - thanks for input - I'll be back tomorrow
[15:23] <Laurenceb_> http://www.digikey.co.uk/product-search/en?pv144=1068&FV=fff4001e%2Cfff800b3&k=pressure+sensor&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25
[15:23] <Laurenceb_> ouch
[15:24] <Ben-AstroSoc> hmm, 700-900g isn't terrible for empty weight of a reasonably large glider
[15:24] <Ben-AstroSoc> a'ight gonna email the CAA and get a set of bounds first off
[15:25] <eroomde> my gut feeling would be that a useful glider would be of the order of 1kg
[15:25] <Laurenceb_> I managed 550grams
[15:25] <Laurenceb_> wow pressure sensors break the bank
[15:25] <Ben-AstroSoc> I found one with a 2000mm span, reputably stable, 880g
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[15:25] <Ben-AstroSoc> 1200mm span, 700g
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[15:26] <Ben-AstroSoc> lighter isnt always better if youre fighting wind
[15:26] <Laurenceb_> just increase wing loading
[15:26] <Laurenceb_> wait I have an idea
[15:26] <Ben-AstroSoc> hm?
[15:27] <Laurenceb_> use novec compressability to measure depth
[15:27] <eroomde> i was gonna say
[15:27] <Laurenceb_> oh hes gone nvm
[15:27] <eroomde> i'd go for high wing loading
[15:27] <eroomde> more space shuttle than zephyr
[15:27] <Ben-AstroSoc> mm, would have to try out how much control it'd have
[15:28] <Laurenceb_> dunno if Novec bulk modulus is published
[15:28] <Laurenceb_> aha http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/bulk-modulus-elasticity-d_585.html
[15:28] <Laurenceb_> problem solved :D
[15:29] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Novec 1230 gas do you mean ?
[15:29] <Laurenceb_> no liquid
[15:29] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Ah yes it is
[15:30] <Laurenceb_> any anyway, what you'd use is a metal canister of oil with strain gauge
[15:30] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> saw as Halon replacement!
[15:30] <Laurenceb_> yes
[15:32] <Ben-AstroSoc> http://www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/store/__27132__Skywalker_X_8_FPV_UAV_Flying_Wing_2120mm_.html been looking at that, wings coul d be trimmed or I could make a new wing profile
[15:32] <Ben-AstroSoc> been doing planes for a while
[15:33] <Ben-AstroSoc> http://www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/store/__82609__Hobbyking_8482_SkyRay_Flying_Wing_FPV_Model_1213mm_EPO_Kit_UK_Warehouse_.html alternative smaller
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[15:38] <eroomde> liquid helium has a refractive index of 1.025
[15:38] <eroomde> that should do it
[15:38] <Laurenceb_> lolz
[15:39] <Laurenceb_> thats why its so hard to see
[15:39] <Laurenceb_> I suspect you could get a GRIN lens and make a good single lens system
[15:40] <Laurenceb_> or just rip someones eye out and steal the lens
[15:40] <Laurenceb_> I'm safe, I wear glasses
[15:43] <Ben-AstroSoc> CAA emailed, i'll wait and see what they say and base our airframe off their information I guess
[15:43] <Laurenceb_> http://www.thorlabs.de/images/TabImages/671_Asph.pdf
[15:44] <Ben-AstroSoc> they've probably all gone home now :')
[15:44] <Laurenceb_> not too bad i guess
[15:56] <chris_99> Laurenceb_, have you ever heard of a fiber dip probe per chance?
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[15:58] <Laurenceb_> no
[15:59] <chris_99> aha no worries
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[16:42] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[21:22] <Laurenceb> so I think I worked out how to find submersible depth
[21:23] <Laurenceb> block of polycarbonate with a foil strain gauge glued to the side
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[21:31] <Laurenceb> should give 0.2% resistance shift per km depth
[21:32] <Laurenceb> building a submersible sounds like a fun project
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[21:47] <fsphil> raspberry pi's about to be launched into actual space
[21:47] <fsphil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX9I1KyNa8M
[21:48] <fsphil> about 30 minutes I think
[21:49] <daveake> I wonder how many seconds after launch before it gets to 41km
[21:49] <Laurenceb> hopefully they can leave them there
[21:49] <daveake> and these become the highest Pis so far
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[22:11] <fsphil> pluto up close, http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/nh-mountainousshorline_0.jpg
[22:13] <chris_99> i wonder, cameras on the ISS which use CMOS sensors afaik develop faults faster than on earth, would they get lots of bit-flips in memory due to radiation
[22:14] <fsphil> the radiation breaks down the sensor over time
[22:16] <kc2pit> Bit flips can happen, but they're not too bad for things in the ISS. Between the rather low radiation levels at that orbit and the shielding provided by the station, you don't see radiation effects too often.
[22:16] <chris_99> apparently the majority of bit flips are due to background radiation interestingly
[22:16] <chris_99> would they use radiation hardened stuff
[22:17] <chris_99> or just ECC memory
[22:17] <kc2pit> For the avionics that run critical systems, I'm pretty sure they use rad-hard everything whether they really need it or not.
[22:17] <chris_99> gotcha
[22:17] <kc2pit> But they also have commercial laptops for other stuff, without even ECC RAM.
[22:17] <fsphil> things get serious when humans are involved :)
[22:18] <chris_99> thankfully
[22:18] <fsphil> they've had laptops crash when going through areas of high radiation
[22:18] <fsphil> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Atlantic_Anomaly
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[22:19] <chris_99> interesting, hadn't heard of that before
[22:19] <kc2pit> Yeah, ISTR there being a generation of hard drives that turned out to be exceptionally vulnerable to radiation and tended to fail after a few months too.
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[22:19] <kc2pit> A few months aboard the ISS, that is. They were fine on Earth.
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[22:25] <fsphil> getting dark in florida
[22:27] <Lunar_Lander> something about to launch from KSC?
[22:28] <Upu> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX9I1KyNa8M
[22:30] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[22:30] <fsphil> hold?
[22:31] <fsphil> aww
[22:32] <fsphil> so nice of them to use my timezone :)
[22:33] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[22:34] <Lunar_Lander> about 15 min when I got him right
[22:34] <fsphil> 22:48:12
[22:40] <Upu> the video is vibrating in sync with the wind outside
[22:44] <Lunar_Lander> getting dark really quick
[22:44] <fsphil> the stream keeps stopping on me every few minutes
[22:44] <Lunar_Lander> count running again
[22:45] <fsphil> aww, hold again
[22:45] <Upu> lol
[22:45] <fsphil> it's not the first Pi launch to go into ISH time
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[22:48] <Lunar_Lander> another 16 min
[22:48] <daveake> or to be delayed due to wind
[22:48] <Geoff-G8DHE> Night all
[22:48] <Upu> night
[22:48] <Lunar_Lander> night geoff
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, did I tell you about my lab accident?
[22:49] <Upu> no
[22:50] <daveake> poor dog
[22:53] <Lunar_Lander> ?
[22:53] <Lunar_Lander> I didn't pay attention and applied 8.2V to an ublox
[22:58] <Upu> that is out of spec
[22:59] <Ian_> Apparently the ublox is somewhat out of spec now. I believe that it passed the smoke test!
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> now it draws 1.5A
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> I was sad
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> resumed
[22:59] <Ian_> What's your returns policy Upu . . . do you really need the smoke back?
[22:59] <Ian_> :)
[23:00] <Lunar_Lander> it stopped after 1 sec
[23:00] <Upu> does it work ?
[23:00] <Ian_> What an optimist
[23:00] <kc2pit> Heh. I've got two MKL26 chips that draw similar amounts of current, probably due to ESD. They work in the brief moment before they get smoking hot, though.
[23:00] <Lunar_Lander> the module?
[23:00] <Lunar_Lander> don't know
[23:00] <Upu> well they are quite hardy
[23:00] <Upu> I know people run them at 5V
[23:00] <Lunar_Lander> I think now that something draws 1.5amperes, something must be wrong
[23:01] <Upu> heh
[23:02] <SA6BSS-Mike> the qustion is , does it still get a gps lock ?? :)
[23:05] <Lunar_Lander> I'll try it
[23:06] <Lunar_Lander> the MAX7Q on my balloon board got a good lock on 4 sats while sitting indoors on wednesday
[23:06] <Lunar_Lander> it only took an hour
[23:08] <SA6BSS-Mike> :)
[23:13] <Lunar_Lander> but was nice
[23:14] <Lunar_Lander> did another test with the payload above a pool of LN2
[23:14] <Lunar_Lander> http://s.gullipics.com/image/r/h/s/5yv7q9-l1b30v-t3ta/2015120304Temperatures.jpeg
[23:14] <Lunar_Lander> inside temp with our small heating we got looks interesting, don't know how much the heating really contribute to the temperature not dropping more than that
[00:00] --- Sat Dec 5 2015