highaltitude.log.20151130

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[00:09] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PIBUG - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PIBUG
[00:10] <Laurenceb> chris_99: thats utter BS
[00:11] <chris_99> really?
[00:11] <chris_99> :(
[00:11] <Laurenceb> just antenna mismatch will kill any chance of it ever working
[00:11] <chris_99> of the circuit version working you mean?
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[00:11] <chris_99> the texas thing or the stanford thing?
[00:11] <Laurenceb> VSWR will need to be exactly 1
[00:12] <Laurenceb> dunno, the texas thing at least
[00:12] <Laurenceb> havent seen the Stanford one before
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[00:13] <Laurenceb> found the fail in OpenRocket
[00:13] <Laurenceb> https://github.com/openrocket/openrocket/blob/master/core/src/net/sf/openrocket/simulation/RK4SimulationStepper.java
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[00:14] <Laurenceb> calculateAcceleration is doing solid body mechanics incorrectly
[00:14] <chris_99> interesting, will it be hard to fix?
[00:15] <Laurenceb> nope about 2 lines of code
[00:15] <Laurenceb> I might drop him an email
[00:15] <chris_99> cool, you could file an issue
[00:18] <Laurenceb> stanford paper is interesting, they seem to be trying to solve the real problem in full duplex
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[00:18] <chris_99> yeah i liked their explanation, as i didn't understand how the 'rotation' effect could be used for full duplex
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[00:25] <Lunar_Lander> good night
[00:26] <Laurenceb> http://pastie.org/10590693
[00:26] <Laurenceb> thats how I handle rotation, its not so simple
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[00:31] <chris_99> does the rotation that calculateAcceleration refers to, mean the spin of the rocket?
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[00:32] <Laurenceb> yes
[00:33] <Laurenceb> or actually no, as it bares no relationship to reality :P
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[00:34] <chris_99> heh, do rockets only spin though, if you angle the fins or .., like normally would the rotation be 0
[00:35] <Laurenceb> well yeah, I dont think openrocket was designed with spinning rockets in mind
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[11:22] <Ben-AstroSoc> hm, are radar reflectors compulsory in the UK?
[11:23] <eroomde> no
[11:23] <eroomde> no one flies them
[11:23] <Ben-AstroSoc> a'ight cool
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[11:25] <Ben-AstroSoc> waiting to hear back from my lecturer a la building our own AVR board
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[11:42] Nick change: Maxell_ -> Maxell
[11:44] <nick_> Sometimes I wish I had a radar reflector when I'm out on my bike.
[11:45] <nick_> People suck at seeing things, especially things that aren't large metal boxes.
[11:45] <nick_> Hopefully self-driving cars (or parts of their tech) will help.
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[11:47] <gonzo_> only if you have self ride bikes too
[11:48] <gonzo_> then you are the mercy of software. Not sure what is worse, that or people?!
[11:50] <nick_> People are significantly worse than software.
[11:50] <Ben-AstroSoc> people write software
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[11:50] <Ben-AstroSoc> definitley people
[11:52] <fsphil> yes lets trust car manufacturers to write software that never does anything bad :)
[11:52] <staylo> iirc some ski trousers have l-band reflectors built in, try wearing those and see if it helps :)
[11:53] <eroomde> that's cunning
[11:53] <gonzo_> "is that an L band ferlector in your pants, or are you just pleased to see me?"
[11:53] <fsphil> fer sure
[11:54] <gonzo_> why L band radar? Do they use it for rescue?
[11:54] <nick_> Software to drive cars can be pretty terrible and still be better than the standard of people.
[11:55] <gonzo_> sadly true.
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[11:56] <craag> Yeah, the reflectors are used to find people under avalanches
[11:56] <nick_> For some reason people seem to me massively against software that kills a single person, but don't care about people killing each other all the time.
[11:57] <craag> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RECCO
[11:58] <gonzo_> need to cycle with pockets full of tin foil strips. Plunge a hand in and deploy window
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[12:02] <gonzo_> interesting craag. I knew of rescue beacons. Think they are ultrasonic? And all beacons are also receivers. So those not burried can immediatly rescue those who are
[12:02] <craag> yeah the active beacon stuff is the next level up
[12:02] <gonzo_> was I right with ultrasinic?
[12:02] <craag> but the recco stuff you find in a lot of inexpensive off-the-shelf ski clothing
[12:03] <craag> err unsure
[12:03] <gonzo_> (or is that ultra-synic?)
[12:03] <craag> LF I though
[12:03] <craag> *thought
[12:03] <gonzo_> poss, that was my otjher suspicion. Could google it, but that's no fun
[12:14] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Alert_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Alert_chase
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[13:21] <craag> http://www.midwesternmac.com/blogs/jeff-geerling/raspberry-pi-zero-conserve-energy
[13:21] <craag> pi0 @ 30mA
[13:21] <craag> sounds too good to be true?
[13:22] <mattbrejza> mumble mumble jsut use a microcontroller mumble
[13:22] <craag> mm
[13:32] <SpeedEvil> craag: you're misreading
[13:32] <SpeedEvil> that's power saved
[13:32] <daveake> It's also not true
[13:32] <SpeedEvil> err
[13:32] <daveake> He has a Chinese USB tester; I have a Fluke
[13:32] <SpeedEvil> nvm
[13:32] <jonsowman> "reduce draw _to_ 30mA"
[13:32] <SpeedEvil> ah
[13:32] <jonsowman> lol
[13:32] <SpeedEvil> jonsowman: yes, I was reading too fast.
[13:32] <jonsowman> :)
[13:33] <SpeedEvil> daveake: What are teh actual numberators
[13:33] <daveake> I get at idle, nothing connected except for serial, 88mA. HDMI off drops that to 70.7mA. LED off drops further to 68.1mA
[13:33] <SpeedEvil> not bad, compared to a PI
[13:33] <SpeedEvil> B
[13:34] <daveake> I've commented on his blog; awaiting approval
[13:34] <gonzo_> is that at 5v?
[13:34] <daveake> yes
[13:34] <SpeedEvil> Somewhat over 30mA alas
[13:34] <daveake> yup
[13:34] <mattbrejza> thats a pretty crappy usb tester he has then
[13:34] <daveake> yup
[13:34] <jonsowman> lol
[13:34] <jonsowman> rubbish
[13:35] <mattbrejza> probably says -30 mA when nothings plugged in
[13:35] <daveake> haha
[13:35] <daveake> Underclocking makes no difference (same as usual)
[13:36] <gonzo_> plug it into itself, you get a pereptual motion macnine
[13:37] <mattbrejza> oh it only has a resolution of 10mA..
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[13:43] <SpeedEvil> daveake: It's a bit depressing.
[13:44] <SpeedEvil> I have a nokia n900 from ... 7 years ago?
[13:44] <SpeedEvil> That will use about 10mW, logged into 3g and wifi, with an active ssh session
[13:44] <daveake> Progress :/
[13:45] <SpeedEvil> OTOH - solar panels that can reliably run a pi are _much_ cheaper now.
[13:46] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/235W-Schuco-Solar-Laminate-NO-FRAME-B-Grade-EU-Made-Bargain-PV-Poly-12V-24V-/291625753161?
[13:47] <Ben-AstroSoc> lecturer let us build the flight board for our electronics design project module, sweet
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[13:48] <daveake> ha. Shut the Pi Zero down and the power consumption when "off" is double that when on and idle
[13:49] <daveake> Guess it's no longer idling
[13:49] <SpeedEvil> :)
[13:51] <Vaizki> so it halts into a busyloop? :O
[13:53] <fsphil> lovely
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[13:54] <daveake> You can save a bit by dropping the i/p voltage (assuming nothing else needs the full 5V
[13:54] <daveake> 5V: 69mA = 345mW
[13:54] <daveake> 4.5V: 71.9mA = 323mW
[13:54] <daveake> 4V = 78.6mW = 314.4mW
[13:54] <daveake> 3.5V: 87.4mA = 305.9mW
[13:54] <daveake> 3.2V: 93.9mA = 300.5mW
[13:55] <daveake> hah won't shut down at 3.2
[13:55] <fsphil> SpeedEvil: that panel is suspiciously cheap
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[13:56] <daveake> Hah that was fun ... sudo halt kept looping at 3.2V. So I nudged it up to 3.3V and it continued :)
[13:56] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: I have 10 of them outside, they are teh right size, shape, look OK, and were delivered on time.
[13:56] <fsphil> excellent
[13:56] <daveake> Now it's doing a bigger loop :/
[13:56] <chris_99> do you have a special connector to measure the usb power with your Fluke daveake? or just tap the power yourself?
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[13:56] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: and produce at least 50W or so. I was unable to test properly due to lack of actual sun
[13:56] <fsphil> SpeedEvil: annoyingly I just bought a 110W panel a few months ago that cost more :/ though it does have the frame
[13:57] <daveake> Just test leads to Fluke then to the GPIO pins
[13:57] <eroomde> daveake: remember the burden voltage of your meter
[13:57] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: the edges are not bare glass, they are thick plastic film, laminated against itself, with a 20mm or so border round the edge
[13:57] <fsphil> yeah. I'm trying to test an MPPT charge controller at the moment, with a 40W panel the peak output so far has been 7W
[13:57] <daveake> 3.5V minimum for stability (so far), and yes the V is at the PSU so far
[13:57] <eroomde> yeah - you'll want to measure it at the pi, after the current meter
[13:58] <daveake> yes yes about to :)
[13:59] <chris_99> Out of interest, i was just looking at this power pack http://www.amazon.co.uk/EC-Technology-22400mAh-Flashlight-Smartphones-/dp/B00F5Q4F0U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1448891912&sr=8-1&keywords=battery+pack which claims 22400mAh, does anyone know where to get battery packs with that capacity, i've only seen RC hobby places selling up to like 10000mAh
[14:01] <SpeedEvil> chris_99: you lie.
[14:01] <chris_99> ?
[14:01] <SpeedEvil> chris_99: I mean - you lie about the capacity in order to boost the capacity
[14:01] <fsphil> not you specifically lol
[14:02] <chris_99> ah, you mean you don't think that is actually 22400mAh?
[14:02] <SpeedEvil> exactly
[14:02] <SpeedEvil> 16 x 8 x 2.2 cm
[14:02] <fsphil> they probably added the Ah of each cell
[14:02] <fsphil> even though they're wired in series
[14:02] <chris_99> ahh
[14:02] <fsphil> *probably*
[14:02] <fsphil> I don't know
[14:03] <SpeedEvil> That is 18650 cell, lengthways. Knock off 3cm of the length, and we're at 15cm.
[14:03] <chris_99> yeah i was confused with the size, as i have a 10000mAh pack which is a lot bigger
[14:03] <SpeedEvil> that is about right for 8 cells.
[14:03] <SpeedEvil> Now, 22400/8 = 2800mAh
[14:03] <SpeedEvil> In principle, these can be obtained.
[14:03] <Vaizki> panasonic NCR18650 are about 2900mAh per cell and they are pretty good. but that's at 3.6V not 5V
[14:03] <SpeedEvil> the pack would however cost more like $100.
[14:03] <chris_99> ah heh
[14:03] <SpeedEvil> These are recycled laptop cells.
[14:04] <Vaizki> more like 2200Ah
[14:04] <SpeedEvil> You will be lucky in most cases to get 2Ah/cell.
[14:04] <mattbrejza> they might specify mAhr based on output current at the usb connector rather than the cells themselves
[14:04] <SpeedEvil> Which is 16Ah@3.7V, or probably about 10Ah realistically at 5V
[14:05] <SpeedEvil> mattbrejza:that would lead to a lower figure, They typically simply add the capacities of all the cells
[14:05] <mattbrejza> or not lol
[14:05] <SpeedEvil> This of course assumes you don't get dud cells, and the vendor buys from recyclers that actually test and sort them for reasonable capacity
[14:07] <chris_99> hmm, so i could always buy one to take appart
[14:07] <chris_99> and see if i can use it with other stuff, as i need >2A
[14:07] <chris_99> output
[14:09] <SpeedEvil> It should work OK if you don't care much about the sticker capacity
[14:10] <chris_99> mmm gotcha
[14:12] <fsphil> SpeedEvil: you put your own back boxes on these? or do you do something else to make them weather proof
[14:12] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: they are entirely waterproof - though yes, you'd need to add a connector box.
[14:13] <SpeedEvil> They are laminated completely on the back.
[14:13] <fsphil> interesting. they would be ideal for the mountain wifi thing
[14:13] <SpeedEvil> With a couple of flat wires poking out the back
[14:13] <fsphil> but conditions up there are pretty harsh
[14:13] <SpeedEvil> the seller also has framed ones for ~twice that
[14:14] Nick change: stilldavid_ -> stilldavid
[14:14] <SpeedEvil> Or had - I haven't checked
[14:16] <fsphil> thanks for linking them. will order one up and have a play
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[14:18] <fsphil> or not
[14:18] <daveake> Down to 3V (at the PSU - min of 2.812V according to the Fluke in min/max mode) and the thing still boots
[14:18] <fsphil> "Northern Ireland delivery is subject to an £80 surcharge by our courier company"
[14:18] <fsphil> wtf
[14:18] <daveake> ^ at the GPIO pins
[14:18] <daveake> danger money
[14:19] <fsphil> it would be cheaper for me to get it delivered to the ferry terminal and drive over to get it
[14:19] <daveake> Or book a collection with a n other delivery company
[14:20] <fsphil> he's in brighton. would make for an interesting drive
[14:21] <fsphil> 10 hour drive
[14:22] <fsphil> or a 1.5 hour flight. not sure they'd fit in the overhead locker
[14:23] <daveake> Hermes UK --> NI 5kg £7.45 + VAT
[14:23] <Oddstr13> urgh, I got a random pm from someone while I was afk
[14:23] <daveake> Or if you want it to arrive, UPS £16.47 + VAT
[14:23] <fsphil> lol
[14:23] <Oddstr13> 11:50:06 < tommy``> hey, nobody answer me i channel, coudl you help me please?
[14:23] <Oddstr13> I don't even know what channel he was talking about xD
[14:24] <gonzo_> wait till next year, after the FIT is reduced
[14:24] <gonzo_> there may be cheap stock to be had
[14:25] <murb> daveake: but UK includes NI.
[14:25] <murb> by definition :p
[14:25] <murb> do you mean GB -> NI?
[14:25] <daveake> Well I guess I do
[14:25] <daveake> Down to 2.8V and this thing keeps booting
[14:26] <mattbrejza> doesnt it have a core voltage of like 1.8V or lower?
[14:26] <mattbrejza> what actually needs 3.3V? sd card i guess?
[14:27] <daveake> Not this one :/
[14:27] <daveake> Yes I think so
[14:27] <mattbrejza> but yea, this is why when we did the eclipse launch we just wired 3xAA to the input
[14:27] <mattbrejza> its fine with quite a range
[14:27] <daveake> yes, that's my plan, and why I'm checking
[14:28] <mattbrejza> the only potential issue is the 5V also goes to the pi's Vbat input, which i couldnt find a maximum rating for
[14:28] <mattbrejza> since 3x lithuim is a bit above the usb allowed voltage range
[14:28] <mattbrejza> the reg is fine to 6V or something though
[14:30] <daveake> At least with the Zero, if in doubt, connect 4 AAs and see if it smokes
[14:30] <daveake> £4 lost
[14:30] <daveake> (and a wait till they're back in stock :/ )
[14:30] <daveake> I have 3 so not so bothered
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[14:32] <craag> So you're the reason none of us could get one !
[14:32] <craag> :P
[14:33] <daveake> lol
[14:33] <daveake> 1 mag 1 Pi Hut 1 CPC
[14:34] <Ben-AstroSoc> damn
[14:34] <Ben-AstroSoc> i tried 5 different newsagents in brum and came up with squat
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[14:35] <daveake> Right, minimum it'll boot on is this:
[14:36] <daveake> PSU 2.7V, @ GPIO (Using Fluke min//max mode): 2.57 - 2.68V.
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[14:37] <daveake> Actually, cancel that, it doesn't 100% boot at that voltage
[14:37] <daveake> (i.e. boots sometimes not every time)
[14:38] <daveake> Anyhoo, with 3 Lithiums, anything below 3V is "about to die anyway"
[14:39] <craag> that was our thinking
[14:39] <craag> worked >=50% at least
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[14:43] <fsphil> murb: I give up correcting people :)
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[15:07] <Ben-AstroSoc> how much does the tx freq tend to move by when it's subjected to the cold?
[15:08] <fsphil> depends on the module
[15:08] <eroomde> this much <---------->
[15:08] <fsphil> and how cold
[15:08] <fsphil> cold is fine. it's changes in temperature that cause drift
[15:09] <eroomde> for the ntx2 referenced in the mailing list, maybe a few kHz if it's not very well insulated?
[15:09] <eroomde> ntx2b has a tcxo - a temperature compensated crystal oscillator - as the frequency source
[15:09] <eroomde> so it's basically rocke solid
[15:09] <fsphil> worst case rfm22b, many khz and will probably end up resetting
[15:10] <eroomde> or maybe it's a tuesday, in which case the frm22b will also reset
[15:10] <eroomde> or on a wednesday
[15:10] <fsphil> if you had eggs for breakfast
[15:10] <eroomde> or any day with a 'day' in the name
[15:10] <fsphil> that'll end badly
[15:10] <Ben-AstroSoc> http://www.radiometrix.com/content/ntx2b tha'ts this one right
[15:10] <fsphil> yeah. that's the current model, and is pretty good
[15:11] <fsphil> as long as there is no air from outside passing over it, it should be fine
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[15:12] <fsphil> *directly passing over it. that make sense?
[15:12] <Ben-AstroSoc> ye
[15:12] <Ben-AstroSoc> cheers
[15:12] <fsphil> you tend to see the frequency drift most after it bursts, when the payload is moving at top speed
[15:13] <eroomde> if it's all in a well insulated box none of this will be an issue
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[15:17] <Laurenceb_> someone should make a radio module thats actually decent
[15:17] <Laurenceb_> sounds like a good webstore product
[15:18] <adamgreig> mtx2 is pretty good
[15:18] <adamgreig> depends what you want in 'decent'
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[15:18] <Laurenceb_> thats true
[15:19] <Laurenceb_> maybe serial+i2c+spi with simple interface
[15:19] <Laurenceb_> stm32 + silabs might work
[15:19] <Laurenceb_> what the heck http://www.universetoday.com/115391/balloon-launcher-zero2infinity-sets-its-sights-to-the-stars/
[15:19] <adamgreig> "simple interface" though
[15:19] <mattbrejza> there are plently of modules with radio + micro + arduino library...
[15:20] <adamgreig> yea
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: The reasons is simple.
[15:21] <Laurenceb_> http://bloostar.com/how-we-do-it/#title-advantages
[15:21] <Laurenceb_> looks nutty
[15:21] <Ben-AstroSoc> that thing has so many engines
[15:21] <mattbrejza> silly name
[15:21] <Laurenceb_> and very expensive
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: the designer was very, very, very high when designing it, and looked at some donuts.
[15:21] <eroomde> they've announced that concept every year for about the last 7 years
[15:21] <Ben-AstroSoc> and it looks like theyre different engines
[15:21] <eroomde> no need to get in a flap about it constantly
[15:21] <Laurenceb_> heh
[15:22] <Ben-AstroSoc> what's themax upmass on it?
[15:22] <Laurenceb_> ten bazillion dollars
[15:22] <Laurenceb_> thats what
[15:22] <eroomde> also they emphasise how environmentall friendly their engine is, as if something at that scale has even a gnats bollock effect on emissions
[15:22] <eroomde> it's just guff
[15:22] <eroomde> treat it as such
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[15:22] <Laurenceb_> surely those engines will be the mass fraction abysmal
[15:23] <Ben-AstroSoc> i want to know why they need more than one type of engine
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> Enough stages, and everything just works.
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> Three liquid stages is quite a large margin over what is theoretically possible to get to orbit
[15:24] <Ben-AstroSoc> it's got so many failure modes with a design like that
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> quite
[15:24] <eroomde> to quote from the article, which tells you how much the journalist has nfi about anything:
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> you almost want more engines
[15:24] <eroomde> The act of building and launching a stratospheric balloon to 30 km (100,000 feet) altitude with >100 kg instrument payloads is a considerable accomplishment. This is just not the releasing of a balloon but involves plenty of logistics and telecommunications with instrumentation and also the returning of payloads safely to Earth. This is clearly half of what is necessary to reach orbit.
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> to get engine-out.
[15:24] <Laurenceb_> lol
[15:25] <Laurenceb_> they dont understand KE
[15:25] KingJ (~kj@2001:bc8:3533:201::1) got lost in the net-split.
[15:25] <eroomde> the journalist doesn't obviously
[15:25] <Ben-AstroSoc> i mean tis great and all putting the thing above the atmosphere
[15:25] <Ben-AstroSoc> but
[15:25] <Laurenceb_> this actually looks not completely daft now
[15:25] <Laurenceb_> http://www.amazon.com/b?node=8037720011
[15:25] <eroomde> posting popular-science articles into a channel like this is a bit unhelpful, generally
[15:25] <Ben-AstroSoc> its not that much of an issue
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: yeah
[15:26] <Laurenceb_> dont know how they will cope with washing lines etc
[15:26] <Laurenceb_> maybe human assisted drop off from remote center
[15:26] <Ben-AstroSoc> how are they going to do that in the uk
[15:27] <Ben-AstroSoc> it's a pretty dumb idea
[15:27] <eroomde> seems plausible for the suburbs
[15:27] <Ben-AstroSoc> can you use the airspace?
[15:27] <eroomde> probably a van is better for delivering around built-up areas
[15:27] <Laurenceb_> maybe they could vet each delivery site with remote pilot
[15:27] <eroomde> but if you have a nice jeremy clarkson house with some space, might be alright
[15:27] <Ben-AstroSoc> it's a UAV out of LoS
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> Ben-AstroSoc: UAV out of LoS is not impossible.
[15:28] <Laurenceb_> so?
[15:28] <SpeedEvil> Ben-AstroSoc: It's just the permits get really annoying
[15:28] <Laurenceb_> its low enough that GPRS etc would be feasible too
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[15:28] <Ben-AstroSoc> i can't see them demonstrating enough safety to get permission to fly over populated areas like they would be bth
[15:28] <Laurenceb_> Amazon have shittons of money for all permits imaginable
[15:28] <Ben-AstroSoc> tbh
[15:28] <mattbrejza> if they can bribe HMRC they can surely get their way with the CAA too
[15:28] <SpeedEvil> Ben-AstroSoc: in many ways, you don't really want to do that
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> Ben-AstroSoc: in densely populated areas, delivery works well
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> as you can arrange stuff to get a couple of minutes drive tops between deliveries
[15:30] <SpeedEvil> it would shine in less dense places.
[15:30] <SpeedEvil> Teh USA, for obvious example
[15:30] <craag> But then it only has a range of 15 miles..
[15:30] <Ben-AstroSoc> outside of getting packages to really rural locations it feels like solving a problem t hat doesn't exist imo
[15:30] <eroomde> suburbia!
[15:31] <SpeedEvil> suburbital.
[15:31] <eroomde> look, something like this probably costs them about 0.01x what google spend on tinkering with driverless cars
[15:31] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[15:31] <Ben-AstroSoc> driverless cars actually solves a problem if it's done properly tho
[15:31] <eroomde> both have no prospect of being let loose in uncontrolled environments autonomously any time soon
[15:31] <eroomde> both generate lots of PR for the money spent
[15:31] <eroomde> and keep engineers happy
[15:31] <Ben-AstroSoc> if you coe up with a good driverless car system why dyou need a flying postman
[15:31] <craag> :)
[15:31] <eroomde> both are plausibly useful in the future and harmless enough to play with now
[15:31] <Laurenceb_> I'd say this is way way closer than driverless cars
[15:31] <eroomde> so i'd, again, not get in too much of a flap about it
[15:31] <SpeedEvil> what would actually solve a lot of problems would be to nationalise all of the package delivery and jam them into one sane network
[15:32] <SpeedEvil> bu that has issues too
[15:32] <Laurenceb_> roads are so much less controlled
[15:32] <Laurenceb_> also you could make delivery drones only semi autonomous
[15:32] <eroomde> i agree this is a much easier problem, technically and legally, than driverless cares
[15:32] <Laurenceb_> with remote pilot for drop off
[15:33] <Laurenceb_> with little cost overhead
[15:33] <eroomde> flying makes for easier navigation
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[15:33] <SpeedEvil> Especially as the pilot can be in Bangladesh.
[15:33] <Laurenceb_> cars are in a complex situation all the time
[15:33] <Laurenceb_> haha
[15:33] <Ben-AstroSoc> do you really think the US are going to let a bunch of foreign pilots fly around their suburbs /s
[15:33] Action: Laurenceb_ pictures drone pilot call centre
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[15:35] <SpeedEvil> Ben-AstroSoc: yeah - never happen.
[15:35] <SpeedEvil> in other news;
[15:35] <SpeedEvil> http://www.techtimes.com/articles/111893/20151130/us-air-force-hires-civilian-drone-operators-to-control-surveillance-drones.htm
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[15:37] <Ben-AstroSoc> i'd prefer bezos throw more money at BO instead of post-drones
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[15:37] <fab4space> hello all
[15:37] <SpeedEvil> VTOL rocket-drones.
[15:37] <fab4space> will it be possible to add support for Maidenhead Locator in habitat ? I don't know who should I ask this?
[15:37] <SpeedEvil> pizza delivery in under 45 minutes.
[15:38] <Laurenceb_> https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/112715/download/Amazon_Determining_Safe_Access_with_a_Best-Equipped_Best-Served_Model_for_sUAS.pdf
[15:38] <fab4space> for the RTTY and especially Contestia modes it should be very interesting in terms of bandwith usage for the message
[15:38] <Laurenceb_> seems they dont plan on remote pilot
[15:38] <Laurenceb_> sounds ambitious
[15:38] <fsphil> maidenhead locator is a terrible system. sorry this comment does not help you :)
[15:39] <fab4space> I have implement 10 digits maidenhead locator on my ARM code and it is very efficient
[15:39] <fsphil> why not just use decimal coordinates?
[15:39] <fab4space> for ASCII character modes
[15:39] <fsphil> then it's a simple sprintf()
[15:39] <fab4space> it compresses more the data for contestia
[15:40] <fab4space> JN23CS86FE = 10 chars
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[15:40] <fab4space> Latitude: 43.77582 Longitude: 4.23538
[15:41] <fab4space> = 15 chars
[15:41] <fab4space> http://no.nonsense.ee/qth/map.html
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[15:59] <SM0ULC-Reb> fsphil: more specific why it's terrible? :)
[16:05] <fsphil> over complicated for little gain
[16:07] <fsphil> terrible might be too strong a word. but it's a bit pointless
[16:07] <nick_> Isn't the problem that you're sending a string, not the actual number?
[16:07] <nick_> In terms of the quanitity of data.
[16:07] <gonzo_> you can get a lat/long down to 8 bytes
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[16:12] <fsphil> maidenhead-style coordinates might actually transmit quicker over contestia/olivia
[16:12] <fsphil> if you use lower case letters
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[16:30] <SM0ULC-Reb> fsphil: right, i thought about problems with converting multiple times etc, and also other data is sent with plain numbers anyway
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[16:31] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03K8UMF-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K8UMF-1
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[16:34] <fsphil> I'm probably a little harsh on it, but the savings are not really worth it imo
[16:37] <SpeedEvil> http://www.dx.com/p/mpu6050-serial-6-axis-accelerometer-gyroscope-module-kalman-filtering-angle-output-for-arduino-414210?tc=TRY&gclid=CLKT5pjIuMkCFQw8GwodfJAPeQ#.Vlx43fG6uRs
[16:45] <fab4space> fsphil, for contestia and its bitrate 50% reduction for lat/lon is nice I think
[16:45] <fab4space> I agree it is more complex for little gain
[16:45] <fab4space> but it is universal too
[16:45] <fab4space> so I don't know if this is feasible to add it to habitat?
[16:46] <fsphil> you might be better asking in #habhub - but I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to add it
[16:46] <adamgreig> i think if you wrote it we'd happily merge it
[16:46] <fsphil> yeah
[16:46] <adamgreig> but right now probably don't have developer time to add it ourselves
[16:46] <adamgreig> but i can point you here
[16:47] <adamgreig> https://github.com/ukhas/habitat/blob/develop/habitat/sensors/stdtelem.py#L51-L89
[16:47] <fsphil> wonder how dl-fldigi would handle it
[16:47] <adamgreig> so if you added a new format option and implemented parsing for it
[16:47] <adamgreig> that might be doable
[16:47] <fsphil> maidenhead defines an area rather than a point. do you just go for the centre of the square?
[16:48] <adamgreig> that is the lowest error approximation i believe
[16:48] <mattbrejza> needs msgpack too...
[16:48] <mattbrejza> but i think thats much more work
[16:49] <fab4space> ok I will take a look at https://github.com/ukhas/habitat and see if I can implement it
[16:49] <adamgreig> fab4space: check the specific link I posted
[16:49] <adamgreig> that's the precise function you would need to change
[16:49] <fab4space> ok thanks adamgreig I will take a look at it
[16:50] <fab4space> and see if I can add support for maidenhead locator in it
[16:51] <fab4space> the issue I see with coordinate is that it take either latitude or longitude as input , and then output it
[16:51] <fab4space> whereas for maidenhead it will be both lat and lon encoded in one string
[16:52] <adamgreig> true
[16:52] <adamgreig> interesting
[16:52] <adamgreig> might need a little more thought
[16:53] <fsphil> might need a new item type
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[16:55] <eroomde> tangentially, i love the idea of some global location format being named after somewhere as dull as maidenhead
[16:55] <adamgreig> haha yes
[16:55] <eroomde> it's a bit like having a Redditch school of Philosophy
[16:55] <daveake> It just needs one value - distance. Larger=better
[16:56] <fab4space> with 10 values maidenhead locator it should be enough for HAB tracking
[16:56] <fab4space> test it with : http://no.nonsense.ee/qth/map.html
[16:58] <fsphil> base64 some binary coordinates :)
[16:58] <eroomde> even 6 would probably be plenty for a long duration floater
[16:59] <fab4space> in fact yesterday I have tested Constestia 32/1000 with my 144.650Mhz 50mW arm cortex M0 tracker (using Anylink DP1276 LoRA module)
[17:00] <fab4space> and I was so pleased by its performance using a 25$ RTL SDR dongle I got pretty comparable resultats to LoRa SF10 with 10Khz bandwith in terms of sensitivity
[17:00] <fab4space> I got crc errors for both contestia and LoRa with the same antenna / distance to the tracker
[17:01] <fab4space> so I'm seriously thinking about using Contestia 32/1000 for locating my payload when it will land
[17:01] <fab4space> and HAM can help me too for locating it since Contestia is open modulation
[17:01] <eroomde> why not just use it for the whole flight?
[17:01] <fsphil> leo had good success with contestia on his floaters
[17:01] <fab4space> I plan to use it for the whole flight yes
[17:02] <eroomde> good
[17:02] <fsphil> it's not good at handling drift though
[17:02] <fab4space> but for landing , I wanted to explain that I want to use 10 characters maidenhead locator
[17:02] <fab4space> the DP1276 includes a TCXO
[17:03] <fsphil> that'll help. I can't remember if Leo's did or not
[17:03] <fab4space> this is my tracker: http://i.imgur.com/wr5iv4D.jpg
[17:03] <fsphil> the time I saw the most drift on his was when it was powering up at night
[17:05] <Flutterbat> fab4space: is that wip?
[17:05] <fab4space> yes Flutterbat
[17:05] <Flutterbat> or are you not interested in the electronic/hardware side?
[17:06] <Flutterbat> ok
[17:06] <fab4space> I'm an embedded software engineer
[17:06] <Flutterbat> your goal is a one custom pcb version?
[17:06] <fab4space> and I'm startig to learn how to design PCB that's why I have design a kind of basic motherboard PCB
[17:06] <Flutterbat> i see.
[17:06] <fab4space> with plugablle Upu GPS breakout, mbuino and Anylink DP1276 module
[17:07] <fab4space> for a 1600g balloon the weight gain is not noticable
[17:07] <fab4space> but for a floater I agree I can improve a lot the hardware design :)
[17:07] <Flutterbat> fab4space: i like this one http://blog.atmel.com/2014/03/19/pava-9-is-a-sleek-atmega328p-based-tracker/
[17:08] <fab4space> yes me too Flutterbat , this is Upu design :)
[17:08] <Flutterbat> i guess you could half the size by applying components to both sides. but that will likely require more layers
[17:09] <fab4space> I'm focusing on the software currently with the CortexM0 with 32kb of flash and 8kb of Ram
[17:09] <fab4space> and mbed framework which is nice for porting to new hardware
[17:10] <Flutterbat> i ordered one of those neat eval boards a while ago. still have to unbox it though. My atmega toolchain is to neat. Until i neat the power i likely wont dig into the cortex's
[17:10] <fab4space> the mbuino is a nice compromise for price / IO and size
[17:11] <fab4space> 9$ per board
[17:11] <mattbrejza> oh the mbuino is in fact not an arduino
[17:11] <mattbrejza> how confusing
[17:11] <fab4space> not at all :)
[17:11] <fab4space> 50Mhz, UART, SPI, I2C, sleep modes
[17:12] <Flutterbat> ive got a STM32 Nucleo with a M4 here
[17:12] <fab4space> the nucleo is nice too, but the size is too big
[17:12] <Flutterbat> oh im not planning to let it fly :D
[17:12] <mattbrejza> http://uk.farnell.com/stmicroelectronics/stm32f030f4p6tr/mcu-32bit-cortex-m0-48mhz-tssop/dp/2432084 just use that
[17:12] <Flutterbat> just as a tinker thing
[17:13] <fab4space> yes mattbrejza this is equivalent to the nxp used in the mbuino
[17:14] <fab4space> i would prefer to use the stm too :) but so far I have never designed a pcb with microcontrollers , quartz,...
[17:14] <mattbrejza> has the advantage that it doesnt come attached to a pcb ;)
[17:14] <mattbrejza> that doesnt need a crystal
[17:14] <mattbrejza> the bom is less than an arduino
[17:14] <fab4space> oh that is ncie mattbrejza I will take a look at it thanks!
[17:14] <mattbrejza> just needs two programming pins to connect to the programmer (eg disco board)
[17:15] <Flutterbat> fab4space: me neither. But frequencies up to at least 20Mhz are really not that hard. Even on a breadboard a 20Mhz sine looks neat
[17:15] <Flutterbat> the digital frequencies are usually much slower. keep the traces short and it should be fine
[17:17] <fab4space> ok thanks
[17:18] <Hix> Wow! Didn't realise STM's were so inexpensive. What is the programming side of ST like? I've not strayed from Atmel processors thus far
[17:19] <Flutterbat> i wonder though. how do 50Mhz cortex's compare to 10Mhz Atmegas/Pics? Considering that the calculation power isnt an advantage for a tracker, i dont see many reasons to use one
[17:19] <fab4space> Flutterbat, the sleep mode
[17:19] <Flutterbat> fab4space: atmegas have that as well
[17:19] <fab4space> it can spend 99% of the time sleeping
[17:19] <fab4space> but the arduino libs doesn't support it correctly Flutterbat
[17:19] <Flutterbat> so the overall consumption is negligable anyways?
[17:20] <Flutterbat> never touched an arduino
[17:20] <Flutterbat> *never will*
[17:20] <mattbrejza> if you really care about low power and sleep then msp430 are probably best (or a L0), but the stm32f0 is fine
[17:20] <mattbrejza> jsut run it at 500kHz or so if you're bothered
[17:21] <mattbrejza> Hix: theres a guide for stm32 parts on the wiki
[17:21] <Flutterbat> mattbrejza: those are good? i happen to have access to an infinite source of those :>
[17:21] <mattbrejza> 'those'?
[17:21] <Flutterbat> msp430
[17:22] <Flutterbat> we use them in our products. when they break (empty battery) we get them back and destroy them
[17:22] <Hix> oh cool. Cheers mattbrejza
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[17:22] <russss> yeah MSP430 are pretty neat
[17:22] <Flutterbat> i just dont have the toolchain so i never bothered checking them out
[17:23] <mattbrejza> oh right, theyre fine, but the stm parts have more/better peripherals
[17:23] <mattbrejza> and range of parts
[17:23] <mattbrejza> the f3s are good too for mixed signal stuff
[17:24] <mattbrejza> ive used msp430s for running off coin cells for example
[17:24] <Flutterbat> jap thats what we use them for as well
[17:28] <Matt_PrjHet> Anyone mind if we put ourselves on the map to test it all still works?
[17:29] <Matt_PrjHet> tracker.habhub.obv
[17:33] <Matt_PrjHet> I'll take silence as complicity (y)
[17:35] <craag> no problem at all Matt_PrjHet, testing is encouraged
[17:35] <craag> !
[17:37] <daveake> :)
[17:38] <stilldavid> daveake: any plans for an HX1-based pi zero board? inquiring minds want to know...
[17:39] <daveake> not at present no
[17:42] <eroomde> got home to my house for the first time in 4 days
[17:42] <eroomde> had the heaying off before a left
[17:42] <eroomde> it's freezing!
[17:43] <eroomde> makes me worry how much of my heating bill is spent on heating the universe up when i normally have it on
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[17:50] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PrjHeT - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PrjHeT
[17:53] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PrJHeT_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PrJHeT_chase
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[18:04] <Matt_PrjHet> That concludes our testing.
[18:06] Lunar_Lander (~kevin@p548898F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #highaltitude.
[18:09] <Matt_PrjHet> We're still keeping our fingers crossed for Dec 4th daveake
[18:10] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[18:11] <daveake> might be ok
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[18:12] <Flutterbat> mattbrejza: which programmer did you use?
[18:12] <Matt_PrjHet> Predictions have varied from perfect to a little too scary today.
[18:12] <Flutterbat> linux/ windows?
[18:12] <Flutterbat> mattbrejza: im talking about the msp430
[18:12] <daveake> variable
[18:13] <mattbrejza> oh, launchpad board + windows
[18:13] <Matt_PrjHet> When will you make a final call on launching/doing the paperwork for a launch Friday?
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[18:28] <Flutterbat> mattbrejza: ah i mixed things up. they arent msp430. they are freescale mc9s08q...
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[18:29] <mattbrejza> oh lol
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[18:57] <Lunar_Lander> the joy of ballooning https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1lke6hPHKJDRzFEUnh6RkZWWGM/view
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[19:03] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-12 after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-12
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[19:19] Nick change: Guest89942 -> danielsaul
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[19:37] <Upu> evening Pete
[19:39] <fsphil> man, ESA are testing on the ssdv page ;)
[19:39] <adamgreig> haha made me look
[19:39] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[19:39] <Lunar_Lander> hi everyone
[19:39] <fsphil> ahoy
[19:40] <Upu> lol
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander> :D
[19:40] <Upu> hey Lunar
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander> seen the pic I posted?
[19:40] <Upu> nope
[19:40] <fsphil> monday mostly over. and I've done about 4.3% of what I'd hoped to get done today
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok
[19:40] <Upu> yeah with you
[19:41] <Lunar_Lander> I'm still quite happy that that linksprite cam finally does something
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[19:49] <fsphil> Lunar_Lander: people have been arrested for boxes looking like that :p
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[19:49] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[19:49] <Lunar_Lander> I know
[19:49] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[19:55] <habby> Hi Upu!
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[21:57] <habby> Quiet in here...?
[21:58] Action: fsphil is trying to figure out CSS. again
[21:58] <fsphil> I'm starting to think nobody understands CSS, and that all websites are styled by typing random letters into a text editor
[21:59] <chris_99> oh thought you meant wot lora used at first
[22:01] <fsphil> that would probably be simpler
[22:01] <chris_99> mmm heh
[22:02] <mfa298> failing typing random letters into a text editor you probably need at least a phd and photographic memory for CSS
[22:03] <gonzo_nb> understanding the bassics and structure of a sysytem, before starting on a major development seems nolongre a requirement
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[22:13] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03M6LZY - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=M6LZY
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[23:06] <mikestir> fsphil: doesn't everyone just use twitter bootstrap and forget CSS even exists?
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[23:16] <lz1dev> nope
[23:16] <lz1dev> but if you want to make page, you need to spend so much time to get it to look decent
[23:16] <lz1dev> even a simple page
[23:16] <lz1dev> thats what those frameworks are about
[23:16] <chris_99> or just throw in a bit of <center>, <marquee> and <blink> and jobs a good un
[23:17] <mikestir> <marquee>lol</marquee>
[23:17] <mikestir> don't forget the bill gates gifs
[23:17] <chris_99> heh
[23:18] <lz1dev> cat.gif
[23:18] <mikestir> http://www.wonder-tonic.com/geocitiesizer/content.php?theme=1&music=11&url=habhub.org
[23:19] <chris_99> haha awesome
[23:20] <mikestir> ha. works well on google. I got a bill gates gif :)
[23:20] <daveake> lol
[23:20] <Flutterbat> looks actually decent in lynx
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[23:28] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-11 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-11
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[00:00] --- Tue Dec 1 2015