highaltitude.log.20151128

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[00:17] <fsphil> cool, http://hackaday.com/2015/11/27/transmitting-tee-vee-from-a-pi/
[00:17] <fsphil> needs a proper PCB
[00:18] <fsphil> "Weve seen hacks using the simpler DVB-T standard" -- disagree with that, DVB-T is more complex than -S
[00:18] <fsphil> narrow band DVB-S from a HAB would be a fun project
[00:19] <fsphil> might even be possible on 2.4ghz in the uk
[00:19] <Lunar_Lander> cool :)
[00:20] <Lunar_Lander> good night :)
[00:21] <fsphil> g'night Lunar_Lander
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[00:22] <craag> http://f5oeo.fr/UglyDATV01.pdf
[00:22] <craag> 'ugly mode'
[00:22] <craag> direct hf qpsk modulation on pi gpio
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[00:26] <fsphil> ugly UI on page 7
[00:26] <fsphil> not quite multipsk bad, but nearly
[00:26] <fsphil> PWM'ed DVB. that's neat
[00:28] <craag> It works
[00:28] <craag> decodes on any set top box
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[01:22] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Hondo1_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Hondo1_chase
[01:29] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03M0ZPL_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=M0ZPL_chase
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[08:47] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03TestCast_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=TestCast_chase
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[11:11] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03F4HHV after 0319 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=F4HHV
[11:29] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-11 after 0310 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-11
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[12:27] <garymortimer> Afternoon all
[12:27] <garymortimer> I have seen PiZERO pop up, is it LoRa or RTTY?
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[12:28] <craag> Probably rtty
[12:28] <craag> Dave has been testing the Pi In The Sky stuff with it
[12:28] <garymortimer> Ah thanks
[12:28] <garymortimer> A much lighter solution
[12:29] <garymortimer> I'm guessing the weather is bad up North, not much happening recently
[12:29] <craag> yeah lots of wind
[12:29] <craag> http://predict.habhub.org/hourly/susf/#
[12:30] <daveake> Not "much" lighter ... the difference between A+ and zero is only about 12g
[12:30] <daveake> Only tested with RTTY so far but no doubt LoRa will work fine
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[12:31] <daveake> And if you add a camera, it'll probably be heavier than the A+
[12:31] <garymortimer> I must fly something down here again, life keeps getting in the way
[12:32] <garymortimer> thats a poor excuse isn't it
[12:35] <garymortimer> I have some anarduino's with 98W's onboard http://www.anarduino.com/miniwireless/ the MOSI MISO lines are in different pins where would I change that in Flextrack Dave. Sorry if its a dumb question
[12:35] <garymortimer> actually its
[12:36] <garymortimer> opens up flextrack to remember where he got
[12:36] <daveake> MISO/MOSI are hardware SPI pins; you can't move them
[12:38] <garymortimer> on this board they are on 2 and 4 not 2 and 3
[12:39] <garymortimer> but i should be able to change that here / Radio section. #define LORA_NSS 5 DIO5 2
[12:39] <garymortimer> so i did
[12:39] <garymortimer> and I'm not sure its working
[12:39] <garymortimer> in that its not!
[12:40] <daveake> You can change DIO0,DIO5 and NSS
[12:40] <daveake> You can't change MISO/MOSI
[12:40] <garymortimer> Ok I will start again I am sure its something very dumb I have done!
[12:40] <garymortimer> there would be no suprise there.
[12:40] <daveake> Those pins on the RFM ***must*** be connected to the h/w MISO/MOSI pins on the CPU
[12:41] <daveake> This is not a configurable thing, and can't be
[12:41] <garymortimer> ok
[12:42] <daveake> Well, in theory you could do s/w SPI, but you'd need to write that, or find a library, and replace the h/w spi function calls with the s/w ones
[12:43] <garymortimer> I'm going to start again, its for the vulture thing, end of school year here so its been carol concerts and final assembly's all around can relax a bit and muck about
[12:46] <garymortimer> Here is the one I should have something on! But laziness and confusion prevailed https://goo.gl/photos/C2chVXH74ZxjCRuz7
[12:46] <daveake> Excellent! I look forward to seeing my code track a vulture :p
[12:47] <garymortimer> We think this one was slightly poisoned ie did'nt have quite enough to kill it so it stopped flying luckily on a school roof and was simple to catch and start its recouperation
[12:49] <garymortimer> I think the repeating element would be amazing when they are up high hunting.
[12:49] <daveake> yup
[12:50] <garymortimer> If we can chop the price of collars we can get them on more animals and get more solid research to try and help them out.
[12:50] <garymortimer> I am supposed to be talking about it next week but rather than prepare rather turn on the soldering iron and do something else ;-)
[12:54] <craag> what was the reason for not using ukhasnet btw?
[12:55] <garymortimer> No reason, just my lack of tech skills I'm sat down now starting again to try and figure it all out!
[12:55] <garymortimer> again
[12:56] <daveake> ukhasnet sounds like a good option
[12:56] <garymortimer> yeah that is the plan in my head
[12:56] <garymortimer> those darn voices again
[12:56] <daveake> craag is there some ukhasnet code around with gps ?
[12:57] <craag> I think there is some in various people's repos
[12:57] <craag> dbrooke's maybe
[12:57] <garymortimer> Flextrack will feed into that won't it?
[12:57] <daveake> ok. I did some but never put it up anywhere
[12:57] <daveake> No flextrack is for the lora modules not the 69, and doesn't use the ukhasnet protocol
[12:58] <garymortimer> oh
[12:59] <daveake> It would certainly be possible to use the lora modules with ukhasnet protocol, with a bit of work
[12:59] <garymortimer> i have made a mistake I thought hasnet was Lora
[12:59] <garymortimer> doh
[12:59] <daveake> but the over-the-air packets are different so you can't have a 69 rx lora, or vice versa
[12:59] <garymortimer> yeah
[13:00] <daveake> ukhasnet has cheaper hardware and is simpler to set up, but will have less range
[13:01] <garymortimer> we will need range, these birds often travel 100km + out and back in a day. With three or four above 10000 feet at lunchtime we could hear a heck of a way
[13:01] <SIbot1> In real units: 10000 ft = 3048 m
[13:01] <craag> you could do ukhasnet protocol over lora
[13:01] <daveake> I said that :)
[13:01] <craag> heh so you did
[13:01] <craag> :)
[13:01] <daveake> tbh that's probably what I'd do for this
[13:02] <garymortimer> the other worry would be clogging up your maps with our birds but that;s a bridge to cross when we get there
[13:02] <daveake> garymortimer Obviously what you need to do is get a team of us to fly down and help you out with this :p
[13:02] <garymortimer> yes that would eb good and I even know where there is beer
[13:02] <garymortimer> not of the lager type either
[13:03] <garymortimer> if I win the lottery we will do it!
[13:03] <daveake> fingers crossed then :)
[13:04] <garymortimer> best i buy a ticket
[13:05] <craag> garymortimer: I run the ukhas.net website - clogging up is not an issue, if it gets that big then I'd be perfectly happy putting in filters/extra pages to support it :)
[13:06] <daveake> savulture.net
[13:06] <garymortimer> Thanks craag
[13:07] <garymortimer> well the vultures would be the repeaters for all sorts of other things
[13:07] <garymortimer> as well as base stations strategically placed
[13:09] <garymortimer> As it stands though UKHASNET is not lora
[13:10] <daveake> Nope. Different modules, different modulation, different packet format, different repeater logic
[13:10] <garymortimer> other than that though ;-)
[13:10] <daveake> But as we've said you could certainly merge the two
[13:11] <daveake> i.e. Lora modules but with ukhasnet packets and repeater logic
[13:11] <craag> well I'd suggest just using lora modulation
[13:11] <craag> as dave says
[13:11] <craag> with ukhasnet packets and logic
[13:11] <daveake> as craag says
[13:11] <daveake> :)
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[13:12] <craag> don't mention i said this to jcoxon though
[13:12] <craag> he might not talk to me again
[13:12] <daveake> lol
[13:12] <garymortimer> blame me
[13:12] <craag> so to start you need to get basic lora -> lora comms working
[13:13] <garymortimer> I managed that between two Unos
[13:13] <craag> :D
[13:13] <craag> now you're using this anarduino thing?
[13:14] <garymortimer> yeah because I thought I was being clever by getting boards with the radios on them. The Uno's were radios I flew some wires off.
[13:14] <daveake> I've used their avr/69 thing and it was fine; I'd be surprised if they've really used the wrong pins for SPI this time
[13:14] <garymortimer> those work
[13:14] <garymortimer> Somebody in there forums noted it, let me find it
[13:15] <daveake> Well they need a slap for that one
[13:16] <garymortimer> http://forum.anarduino.com/posts/list/57.page
[13:17] <garymortimer> It could be me reading that wrong dont forget
[13:18] <daveake> Yes :)
[13:18] <daveake> Looks fine - they've used the correct h/w SPI pins
[13:18] <daveake> The configurable bits are DIO0/5 and NSS
[13:19] <daveake> D2 RFM DIO0, D4 RFM DIO5 , D10 RFM SS
[13:19] <daveake> So set those up in flextrack and it should work
[13:19] <garymortimer> Ok thanks, and best I pop out for that lotto ticket
[13:20] <daveake> I suggest you don't do the repeater thing - just have it tx constantly, then check with a radio that it's tx-ing
[13:20] <daveake> If so then you know the h/w is ok and configured ok
[13:20] <daveake> then write the ukhasnet code :)
[13:21] <garymortimer> after supper yes
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[13:36] <PE2BZ> !flights
[13:36] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ: There are no flights currently :(
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[13:45] <Upu> ping craag
[13:46] <craag> Upu: pong
[13:46] <Upu> yo pm
[13:50] <PrjHeT> Hey daveake, are you back from your hols?
[13:50] <daveake> yup
[13:50] <PrjHeT> Good time?
[13:51] <daveake> yup
[13:51] <PrjHeT> I was talking about you last week...
[13:51] <daveake> ok...
[13:51] <PrjHeT> We're desperate to launch before the new Star Wars film comes out.
[13:52] <daveake> hah good luck with that
[13:52] <PrjHeT> yup!
[13:53] <PrjHeT> On the off the weather improves even slightly. Any chance we could use your NOTAM? You've got a 3-dayer haven't you?
[13:53] <PrjHeT> I expect it'd be a coast to coast launch and recovery....
[13:54] <daveake> Yeah it's a 3-day thing. So I don't have a notam but can get one with 3 days notice
[13:54] <PrjHeT> I don't actually know where you are, but rumour has it it's somewhere near Wales.
[13:54] <daveake> Ross On Wye
[13:55] <daveake> 2 caveats - 1) I'm away again from 12th December, and 2) I have 2 flights of my own coming up before then
[13:55] <daveake> Hourly: http://predict.habhub.org/hourly/oldgore/#
[14:01] <PrjHeT> When are you flying? Tuesday looks like it has potential... If you'd consider letting us launch from there.
[14:01] <daveake> Can't get permission that quickly
[14:02] <daveake> You should also keep an eye on ground winds - http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/hdfForecast?query=ross+on+wye&MR=1
[14:02] <daveake> 27kph for Tuesday which is too high - we're on a hill with no wind cover at all
[14:03] <Vostok> wunderground winds
[14:03] <daveake> There's cover for filling but not for launching
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[14:06] <PrjHeT> Yeah that's a little bit too hairy. I think our first launch was about 20kph and that took up 2 people just saving the balloon hitting the ground.
[14:06] <daveake> yup
[14:06] <PrjHeT> OK.
[14:11] <PrjHeT> 4th Dec has potential..? That'd be really handy. I start a run of 7 nightshifts that night! I may have to pull a 36 hour night-launch-nightshift.
[14:11] <PrjHeT> *otherwise
[14:14] <daveake> Yeah 4th might work; if so I'll be launching
[14:14] <daveake> You're welcome to join for that
[14:14] <daveake> I have a commercial launch the week after and you'd need to avoid that one
[14:15] <PrjHeT> Thursday, we could drive up and get a B&B. That way I can buy you all that beer I owe you up to this point...
[14:16] <daveake> hah :)
[14:17] <PrjHeT> :D
[14:19] <PrjHeT> Also... Do you mind being on TV? If it's OK for us to launch with you, I'll tell Discovery to pencil in the cameraman.
[14:19] <PrjHeT> (Explaining the weather permitting bit...)
[14:20] <PrjHeT> *Canadian TV
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[14:23] <daveake> yeah fine
[14:33] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) joined #highaltitude.
[14:39] Nick change: Jartza_ -> Jartza
[14:50] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03TestCast2_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=TestCast2_chase
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[15:38] <chris_99> do most of you guys use yagi antennas out of interest, to receive, or discone or..?
[15:44] <Ian_> I imagine that most use colinears and some have Yagis and rotators
[15:44] <craag> yeah 2/70 colinears are the most common
[15:45] <craag> I'd like a mast + rotator + yagis :D but landlord is less keen :P
[15:46] <Ian_> Wives seem to have less recourse to the law in such matters . . .
[15:46] <Ian_> Fortunately.
[15:46] <chris_99> on wiki i can only see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collinear_antenna_array
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> Yagi is lots better.
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> But.
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> In general, with HAB, for 'nearby' balloons, there is generally an excess of signal
[15:47] <Ian_> Need steering . . .
[15:47] <chris_99> oh is http://www.moonraker.eu/amateur-radio/base-vertical-antennas/moonraker-vertical/dual-and-triband-colinear/sqbm100n-mkii-dual-band-2-70-vertical-ntype
[15:47] <chris_99> what you mean
[15:48] <Ian_> Yagi Diamond or Watson are the main manufacturers, with Watson being the less expensive
[15:48] <dbrooke> given the results I have had with a colinear (SQBM500N) I suspect a yagi would only provide marginal benefits and is a lot more complicated
[15:49] <chris_99> what are the 3 spikes in that colinear antenna for?
[15:49] <Ian_> The diamond X50 or Watson W30 are favoured. W300 gives more gain for more ££
[15:50] <Ian_> The Moonraker one is much the same as X50 and W30, but fails due to the complexity and non-memorable name !
[15:50] <Ian_> Good on price though.
[15:51] <dbrooke> I got a cash deal at a rally
[15:52] <dbrooke> only downside is that it seems to have become slightly loose in its stub mast after several years of waving about in the wind
[15:53] <Ian_> Thats the place to get a deal. We tried to get a discount for a small bunch sometime afterwards and orders less than £1,000 were not even entertained for any!
[15:54] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03W4TTX-9 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=W4TTX-9
[16:01] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03XE1BRX-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=XE1BRX-11
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[17:07] <chris_99> Ian_, what do you mean the moonraker one fails due to complexity?
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[17:22] <Lunar_Lander> eveninng
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[17:32] Nick change: uwe__ -> uwe_
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[18:15] <chris_99> could i use http://www.moonraker.eu/amateur-radio/base-vertical-antennas/moonraker-vertical/dual-and-triband-colinear/sqbm500n-mkii-dual-band-2-70-vertical-super-gainer-ntype perfectly fine for 868MHz? as it says it receives up to 2GHz
[18:25] <dbrooke> it will work for receive but how well it performs is unknown, I've used mine for ADS-B reception at 1090MHz but not compared it with anything else
[18:28] <chris_99> aha, i don't have much clue about antennas, i was just speaking to a friend who's looking to use 433MHz & 868MHz using dipoles, do you know how a dipole antenna would compare to that out of interest
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[18:33] <dbrooke> I don't at 868MHz, the SQBM500N claims 9.2dBd gain at 434MHz which is in theory about 8 times better than a dipole
[18:34] <chris_99> oh interesting! how did you calculate a figure for a dipole?
[18:34] <dbrooke> even if that's true, bear in mind it's done by squeezing the pattern flatter so only applies towards the horizon
[18:35] <dbrooke> the d at the end of dBd means dB with reference to a dipole
[18:35] <chris_99> oh cheers, i didn't know that
[18:36] <craag> Given that the colinear is tuned for 434MHz, and 868MHz is an even multiple, I doubt it'll work very well at 868MHz to be honest
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[18:36] <dbrooke> so dBi is referenced to isotropic (theoretical spherical pattern) and dB is meaningless without a reference
[18:36] <chris_99> aha craag, if i wanted to recieve both, would i be better with a discone maybe?
[18:37] <craag> discone would probably be worse to be honest
[18:37] <craag> I think you'd do better with a dipole at 868MHz than the colinear
[18:38] <chris_99> theoretically i could get another colinear tuned for 868MHz i assume?
[18:39] <craag> Maybe - but it would be specialist, not common amateur stuff
[18:39] <craag> so likely expensive
[18:39] <chris_99> ah
[18:39] <dbrooke> a discone is likely worse than a dipole but is broadband
[18:39] <dbrooke> you could make a ground plane
[18:40] <dbrooke> http://album.dbrooke.me.uk/868MHz/tn/P1010651.JPG.html
[18:40] <dbrooke> probably not ideal but it was bits I had lying around
[18:41] <chris_99> neat, am i correct in thinking the red things, reflect radio towards the black antenna?
[18:42] <dbrooke> they form a ground plane, sort of replacing the lower half of a dipole
[18:43] <dbrooke> they should really be angled down a bit
[18:43] <chris_99> so that's a colinear antenna?
[18:44] <dbrooke> colinear is a stack of elements
[18:44] <dbrooke> electrically equivalent to a number of dipoles in a line
[18:46] <chris_99> ah interesting, so that's how the moonraker one is good at 2 main freqs
[18:48] <dbrooke> the photo I linked is a quarter wave ground plane antenna which is similar to a dipole in performance but mechanically easier to build
[18:51] <chris_99> gotcha
[18:52] <dbrooke> the resonant frequency is related to the length of the elements
[18:55] <dbrooke> and they will resonate again at 3 times the frequency so a 144 and 432 antenna is reasonable
[18:56] <dbrooke> but as craag said, 868 is about twice 432
[18:57] <dbrooke> there's more to it than that, impedance matching and so on, not to mention magic 8-)
[18:57] <daveake> much magic :)
[18:57] <russss> antennas are all witchcraft
[18:58] <dbrooke> see, they all agree 8-)
[18:58] <daveake> I maintain that they only work by locally modifying the laws of physics
[18:58] <russss> I just got an implausibly small active HF antenna and I have no idea how it can possibly exist
[18:59] <russss> I'm led to believe the answer is magnets
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[18:59] <daveake> oxygen-free radials
[19:01] <dbrooke> wouldn't they be directional though ? 8-)
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[19:06] <daveake> hah!
[19:10] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PIZERO after 0319 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PIZERO
[19:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KJ4TDM-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KJ4TDM-1
[19:13] <chris_99> i just found an ebook, which i'm gonna read, to try and understand them somewhat heh
[19:15] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PIBUG - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PIBUG
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[19:22] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03N4XWC-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N4XWC-1
[19:30] <chris_99> so i just found this - http://www.rason.org/Projects/collant/collant.htm
[19:30] <chris_99> does that mean the moonraker antenna actually has two of those inside tuned for different freqs?
[19:34] <daveake> Doubt it ... usually they put a little coil inside each radial. The coil blocks higher frequencies (well, a bit more than it does the lower ones) so it serves to isolate part of the radial
[19:35] <daveake> So at low frequencies the entire radial is used, at higher ones only part of it
[19:35] <daveake> Then, using maths and magic, it can be tuned for 2 frequencies
[19:36] <chris_99> oh cool
[19:38] <fsphil> the diamond colinears seem to have a low pass filter too
[19:39] <fsphil> there's almost nothing out of them below 80mhz
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[19:43] <chris_99> how do they determine the total length should be '8 half wave lengths'?
[19:45] <chris_99> oh that bit is kind of arbitrary? reading the end bit making it longer still increases the dB
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[20:17] <tweetBot> @AnthonyStirk: Honey I shrunk the @pitsproject.Now if anyone can give me a compelling case to make this I'm all ears #pizero #ukhas https://t.co/IuGme3jJdb
[20:22] <eroomde> there isn't one but you will anyway
[20:22] <eroomde> my prediction
[20:23] <Upu> Well
[20:23] <Upu> I'm not making it
[20:23] <Upu> I may make one just to see but not putting it in production
[20:23] <eroomde> mitch might :)
[20:23] <Upu> he's quite good actually
[20:23] <Upu> if someone uses one of my designs and I forget to put CC stealalike on it
[20:24] <Upu> he asks me before making it
[20:24] <eroomde> tht is good
[20:24] <Upu> as fab4space found out :)
[20:24] <eroomde> look what they were tinkering on 50 yrs ago
[20:24] <eroomde> https://twitter.com/NASAArmstrong/status/670346363553628164
[20:24] <eroomde> that would've been fun
[20:24] <Upu> yeah real engineering
[20:24] <Upu> 354200 feet
[20:24] <SIbot1> In real units: 354200 ft = 108 km
[20:25] <Upu> space then :)
[20:25] <Upu> I watched the Season 5 Robot Wars final last night
[20:25] <Upu> Still love that Razer robot for design
[20:26] <eroomde> i read a lot of their research into the engine, and all the stability problems they had with ammonia
[20:26] <eroomde> which are exactly like the problems we encountered with amonia too
[20:26] <Upu> nasty stuff isn't it ?
[20:26] <eroomde> yes razer was fabulous. a really beautiful bit of work
[20:26] <eroomde> it's not mega fun as a chemical to have around, though not especially bad by the standards of everything else we use
[20:26] <eroomde> but it's so unstable
[20:27] <eroomde> combustion-wise
[20:27] <eroomde> it sounded almost like a sort of automatic blunderbus
[20:27] <Upu> in what way ?^h etc
[20:27] <eroomde> bang-bang-bang-bang-bang
[20:27] <Upu> heh
[20:27] <eroomde> just wouldn't sustain combustion - very twitchy
[20:27] <Upu> even under pressure ?
[20:27] <eroomde> tho it was with a tricky oxidiser too
[20:28] <eroomde> yep
[20:28] <Upu> did they sort it in 1967 ?
[20:29] <Upu> I guess so given 108km
[20:29] <eroomde> no not really
[20:29] <Upu> suspect it wasn't popping and farting its way there
[20:29] <eroomde> it wasn't a particularly good rocket engine
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[20:29] <eroomde> you don't need the performance for suborbital
[20:29] <eroomde> any old thing round the back of the sofa will work
[20:30] <eroomde> they got it stable by dailing way back off peak efficiency
[20:30] <eroomde> just very very rich
[20:30] <eroomde> it's more forgiving then but at the cost of performance
[20:30] <eroomde> we were trying to operate it at maximum specific impulse, but it was twitchy
[20:31] <eroomde> i think 'rough as a badger's arse' was the wording alan chose
[20:32] <Upu> getting on any better with it ?
[20:32] <eroomde> oh no it was just a short test a yr or two ago
[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> hmmm http://gerblook.org/pcb/u6PT6Zmu2q3vnKxhtUF2sc#front
[20:33] <eroomde> could make it stable but not without changing the mixture ratio too far away from where we wanted. it was quite a nice requirement
[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> can someone please comment on it?
[20:33] <Lunar_Lander> (no stitching yet)
[20:33] <eroomde> i think the conclusion was we could satisfy the requirement (lots of nitrogen in the exhaust) with mon-hydrazine
[20:33] <eroomde> which has no problem combusting
[20:34] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: those are for sma edge connectors?
[20:35] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:35] <eroomde> how do you get an sma spanner in?
[20:36] <eroomde> to tighten up the screw jacket?
[20:37] <eroomde> i'd also extend the gps ground plane right up to the sma connector like you have for the mtx2
[20:37] <Lunar_Lander> OK, thanks
[20:37] <Lunar_Lander> yea and make the cutouts wider I think
[20:37] <eroomde> yeah
[20:38] <eroomde> or just get rid of the middle bit
[20:38] <eroomde> you don't *have* to use a spanner obviously but it is the Coreect Way of doing sma connections so it should at least be possible, i think
[20:40] <eroomde> treat yourself: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Top-Quality-HUBER-SUHNER-SMA-K-Torque-Wrench-100Ncm-74-Z-0-0-21-as-Agilent-/272053779505?hash=item3f57ab3c31:g:OKIAAOSwsB9WDiJ3
[20:40] <eroomde> (not actually worth it unless you're doing a lot of sma installation, production or experimantal work)
[20:43] <Lunar_Lander> thanks :)
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[21:16] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03MM8 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=MM8
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[21:24] <Ian_> chris_99 sorry been out, just back. The Moonraker one is good, just the name is not memorable. X50 & W30 are easy to recall.
[21:25] <chris_99> oh heh
[21:25] <Ian_> Just a failure of the name and not the antenna. Probably the best bang for $ around
[21:25] <chris_99> yeah the price seems really good
[21:26] <Ian_> Diamond are just a little over priced, so for many years the cost conscious have bought Watson. Moonraker is a more recent offering.
[21:28] <Ian_> The only negatives with colinears is the tri-band ones because INVARIABLY the ground plane radials are too small for the 6m band so the match is sub-optimal there.
[21:28] <Ian_> If you need 6m make something out of wire!
[21:31] <chris_99> yeah i was looking at that guide for making a colinear which looks interesting
[21:32] <Ian_> With the colinear - of any manufacture - 2m/70cm, the falloff of gain lower than 2m and above 70cm will become significant the further you get from those two bands.
[21:33] <Ian_> A dedicated dipole for the higher frequency might well outperform it at 868MHz
[21:38] <chris_99> gotcha, but if i had a colinear that was tuned to 868MHz that'd be better than the dipole?
[21:55] <Ian_> Yes, the gain of a dipole is 0dBd or about 2.1dBi - naughty people cite yagi in dBi and some don't indicate the reference.
[21:56] <Ian_> dipole or isotropic. Vertical antenna, whips and colinears commonly use dBi
[21:56] <Ian_> Is that fairly clear?
[21:57] <chris_99> yeah i think i understand that, moonraker gave the gain as 9.2dBd though for their colinear
[21:57] <Ian_> Sales people describing the gain of a yagi in dBi are either ignorant or shysters.
[21:57] <chris_99> ah heh
[21:57] <Ian_> The moonraker is dBi (reputable)
[21:59] <gonzo_nb> surely dBi is the correct gain, as pretty much everyone, other than amateurs, use the isotropic ref
[21:59] <Ian_> The ARRL outlawed the practice on their web sites a few years ago as it was seen as fast practice and preyed upon the newer ops
[21:59] <Ian_> As long as the reference is given either is acceptable, but the difference is 2.1dB
[21:59] <Ian_> Nominal.
[22:00] <gonzo_nb> most ofcom docs refer to dBi in licence limits
[22:00] <gonzo_nb> amateurs just need to catch up
[22:01] <gonzo_nb> (there are many who still can't work out dBw. And that's not just foundation licencees
[22:01] <Ian_> You are probably right, but with yagis, most amateur radio types are comparing to the gain of a dipole anyway and not the quarter wave whip
[22:01] <gonzo_nb> yep, it's just AR convention
[22:02] <gonzo_nb> one of the many outdated ones
[22:02] <Ian_> Not saying that the whip is isotropic of course . . . eek !
[22:02] <Ian_> I still use both inches and mm
[22:02] <gonzo_nb> a proper wl/4 gp should be identical to a dipole
[22:03] <Ian_> We are shaped by history in one way or another. And I'm not biting!
[22:03] <gonzo_nb> I use imperial and metric mixed. so will use HxW in mixed units, depending whick is the neatest number
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[22:06] <chris_99> there isn't a simple site that compares the gain of different types of antenna is there?
[22:14] <eroomde> havn't found one
[22:14] <eroomde> but the arrl antenna handbook is decent
[22:15] <eroomde> its the radiation patterns you need rather than gain numbers, which don't mean much without very specific context
[22:16] <chris_99> ah, from the radiation pattern i guess you can tell if it's directional or not too
[22:16] <SpeedEvil> yes
[22:17] <eroomde> exactly
[22:17] <eroomde> more gain in one direction means less gain in another
[22:17] <eroomde> no free lunch
[22:17] <chris_99> ah
[22:18] <eroomde> so things like the colinears have more gain out to the horizon than a dipole, but less gain vertically as a result
[22:18] <eroomde> but that's a fine trade-off for most applications, hab included
[22:19] <Ian_> A yagi gain of around 14dbd is about the top end. After that you are into the realm of diminishing returns on gain versus aluminium in the sky.
[22:19] <chris_99> i assume you can't keep adding more half wave lengths to a colinear without some penalty?
[22:20] <Ian_> Also with all that gain comes pointing problems. Two beams 8 degrees wide wobbling in the wind - now you see it, now you don't!
[22:20] <Ian_> About 9 to 12dBd is a fairly practical range - I think.
[22:22] <Ian_> The difference between quarter wave ground plane whips, 5/8 wave and the less common 7/8 wave, is the radiation angle. The 1/4 wave is fairly steep, so \
[22:23] <Ian_> two stations as they get further apart are not illuminating each other as much as the clouds. 5/8 is flatter.
[22:24] <Ian_> With HAB the 1/4w steep angle is mainly downwards, just where you might want it. With a dead spot directly beneath.
[22:25] <Ian_> Just caught up on the reading since 1800 and apologise for the repeated info.
[22:25] <Ian_> Call it confirmation!
[22:26] <chris_99> no, it's v. interesting, a lot is still above me atm unfortunately, but i'm gonna read through this ebook i got
[22:27] <Ian_> Best you try to concentrate on one of whip, dipole/yagi or colinear as the approach is sufficiently different to cause confusion this early in your understanding. Just a thought!
[22:28] <dbrooke> I have noticed nulls at certain angles while receiving HABs with the SQMB500n and I'd consider something lower gain with a mast head preamp if it was just HABs I used it for
[22:28] <chris_99> sounds like a sensible idea Ian_
[22:29] <Ian_> I guess that it has nodes in the vertical radiation pattern, not something we tend to normally think about \
[22:30] <Ian_> unlike a yagi where the radiation pattern shows them. Incidentally chris_99 the narrower the beam from a yagi, the bigger and more nodes to give you grief
[22:32] <dbrooke> simplistically, if you think of a colinear as a stack of dipoles then they're only in phase towards the horizon so you'll get cancellation at certain elevation angles
[22:32] <chris_99> out of interest, where the radiation patterns for these antennas originally deduced experimentally, or would they be from simulations
[22:33] <dbrooke> some of the commercial PMR ones are even phased to give a slight down tilt
[22:33] <Ian_> In the same way, notice that as often as not the radiation pattern shown for a yagi is in the horizontal plane. When you turn it vertically for FM operation you are pretty much in 'usually' uncharted/advertised territory.
[22:34] <dbrooke> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_Electromagnetics_Code
[22:34] <Ian_> Originally the patterns were measured on an antenna range. Today there is a multiplicity of simulation tools to help
[22:35] <Ian_> dbrooke, you can't help but notice that I'm the manual version - wet finger job! :)
[22:36] <Ian_> I lack a certain finesse, but don't tell everyone!
[22:36] <Ian_> I started life as a telegraphist
[22:39] <Laurenceb> I've been using 4NEC2
[22:39] <dbrooke> It's not something I've done a lot of, but I seem to recall modelling a Lindenblad antenna using some NEC variant in the dim and distant past
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[22:45] <Ian_> Laurenceb you seem to have experience with a very wide range of exotic analytical software. I would be surprised if you could remember half the names of the ones you have dabbled with one way or another . . .
[22:46] <Ian_> I'm, sure that your learning curve is the opposite to the rest of us . . . I find some things very hard
[22:49] <Laurenceb> heh
[22:50] <chris_99> are you a hardware engineer out of interest, Laurenceb?
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[22:50] <Laurenceb> chris_99: yes
[22:51] <chris_99> cool :)
[22:51] <Laurenceb> medical stuff
[22:51] <Laurenceb> although atm I'm working on a project to monitor racehorses
[22:51] <chris_99> oh heh, i think you mentioned that, what are you using on the horse, ECG?
[22:52] <Laurenceb> maybe.. its supposed to be secret :P
[22:52] <chris_99> aha
[22:52] <chris_99> heh
[22:52] <Laurenceb> horses arent that different to humans
[22:52] <Laurenceb> apart from the whole fur thing
[22:53] <chris_99> hehe
[22:53] <Laurenceb> thats what we are try to find a way around / through
[22:53] <chris_99> shave the horses fur a little?
[22:53] <Laurenceb> no chance, not on a £1M racehorse
[22:53] <chris_99> haha
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[22:54] <chris_99> sounds like an interesting problem then
[22:54] <Laurenceb> "and now the spotty horse"
[22:54] <chris_99> lol
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[22:55] <dbrooke> last time I had an ECG they shaved me! clearly worth less than a horse
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[22:56] <Ian_> Hopefully you are a lot less likely to trample people too . . .
[22:57] <Ian_> Big high spirited beasts in close proximity make me somewhat nervous about my continued wellbeing as they kick out at each other
[22:57] <Ian_> like a load of hyperactive kids.
[22:57] <Laurenceb> I don't really see the attraction of horses
[22:57] <Laurenceb> they are just glorified cows to me
[22:58] <Ian_> I know that one of the best steaks that I have had was horse, in Belgium
[22:58] <chris_99> what about little horses Laurenceb, they're pretty cute
[22:59] <Ian_> Not as manageable as sheep and wellies
[23:04] <chris_99> http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-07/25/mit-algorithm 'MIT algorithm measures your pulse by looking at your face' - strap a camera to the horse, and hope it changes colour ;)
[23:12] <chris_99> more usefully 'A Low-Noise, Non-Contact EEG/ECG Sensor' sounds interesting
[23:17] <SpeedEvil> err
[23:17] <SpeedEvil> Horses have hair.
[23:17] <SpeedEvil> With rare exceptions - horses do not have pink skin anywhere.
[23:17] <SpeedEvil> Well.
[23:18] <SpeedEvil> I will not elaborate.
[23:18] <chris_99> hehe
[23:19] <SpeedEvil> I suspect you could probably quite easily from most creatures pick up pulserate from either movement + PLL, or doppler radar
[23:20] <chris_99> how would radar pickup the pulse?
[23:20] <SpeedEvil> ~0.?mm movement of chest
[23:21] <chris_99> ahh
[23:21] <chris_99> i saw a pretty neat thing on using ECG biometrics to authenticate with your computer, supposedly it'd work regardless of the bpm too
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[23:46] <Lunar_Lander> http://gerblook.org/pcb/zyNCNKYCfig98JYbadLK6D
[23:50] <chris_99> mtx2 is a transmitter right? so wheres the mcu go
[23:50] <craag> looking good Lunar_Lander
[23:50] <Lunar_Lander> thanks :)
[23:50] <Lunar_Lander> chris_99, there is another board that stacks on
[23:50] <chris_99> ahh
[23:50] <craag> I'd give the sma sockets a bit more clearance to the PCB on the sides so you cn put plugs on them
[23:51] <Lunar_Lander> http://gerblook.org/pcb/HT2P8Fwom95WyD5SQJK4tJ
[23:51] <Lunar_Lander> http://gerblook.org/pcb/3uMyqe4Mzfunax3RR3Yz7Q
[23:51] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[23:51] <chris_99> oh neat, any reason it's on a separte board
[23:51] <Lunar_Lander> ah that was an idea in order to make it more versatile
[23:51] <Lunar_Lander> maybe if you want other components in the future, another deck comes in
[23:52] <chris_99> ah gotcha
[23:52] <craag> what's the dimensions of each board Lunar_Lander ?
[23:53] <Lunar_Lander> 5x5cm
[23:53] <craag> nice :)
[23:53] <Lunar_Lander> thanks :)
[23:57] <Lunar_Lander> silkscreening the CPU board was a lot of work
[23:57] <craag> Looks great though!
[23:58] <craag> I'd stitch the ground polygons a bit more
[23:58] <craag> with more vias
[23:58] <craag> but that's just me
[23:58] <craag> (on the cpu)
[23:58] <Lunar_Lander> OK
[00:00] --- Sun Nov 29 2015