highaltitude.log.20151120

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[10:13] <LunarWork> hello
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[10:17] <eroomde> greetings LunarWork
[10:17] <LunarWork> hi ed
[10:17] <LunarWork> how is life?
[10:18] <eroomde> work-filled
[10:19] <LunarWork> same here
[10:20] <fsphil> all work and no play
[10:22] <eroomde> how long until flight LunarWork?
[10:25] <LunarWork> second week of december maybe
[10:42] <LunarWork> the MTX2 can't be breadboarded I found
[10:42] <LunarWork> then recalled the 2 mm pin pitch already was in the datasheet
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[11:15] <UpuWork> morning good news Lunar
[11:15] <UpuWork> was fairly quick
[11:21] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-11 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-11
[11:21] <fsphil> on a schematic, do people put decoupling caps near their ICs or move them to their own little area?
[11:21] <fsphil> suppose it depends how many the IC needs
[11:22] <gonzo_> personal pref. I personally prefer to put them next to the devcice, seems more sensible
[11:23] <lz1dev> decaps are people too fsphil pls :(
[11:23] <fsphil> I'm passive-ist
[11:27] <jonsowman> lol
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[11:42] <eroomde> by device too, usually
[11:42] <eroomde> unless it's a huge device
[11:53] <fsphil> this is an stm32 part, with a silly number of supply pins
[11:54] <fsphil> I put on the caps and it looks real ugly. though I'm going to have this problem doing the board layout later anyway
[11:55] <zyp> uh, the entire point of the decoupling caps is to have them as close to the device as practically possible
[11:56] <zyp> a pool of decoupling caps sitting in it's own area would be pretty pointless
[11:56] <adamgreig> On the schematic it makes less difference zyp :p
[11:57] <adamgreig> I usually put them by the device too, stm32s aren't too many usually? Ten or twelve or so?
[11:57] <zyp> wait, are you talking about the schematic or the actual layout?
[11:57] <jonsowman> fsphil> on a schematic, ...
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[11:58] <zyp> oh, missed that part
[11:58] <zyp> on schematics I just line them up as a standalone pool
[11:58] <zyp> next to the main ic symbol
[11:58] <adamgreig> https://agg.io/u/m2fc.pdf sort of thing for me
[11:59] <adamgreig> This stm32 has pins just for caps that don't go to power lines too so need some of them right there anyway
[11:59] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-12 after 032 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-12
[11:59] <zyp> http://bin.jvnv.net/f/SU1IJ.png
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[12:13] <fsphil> hmm yes, should probably re-do the schematic part with the vcc pins grouped
[12:14] <fsphil> though I like having it as it is physically
[12:14] <fsphil> arg
[12:15] <fsphil> adamgreig: that's really tidy
[12:16] <fsphil> I like that you've put documentation in there
[12:16] <adamgreig> I find having the schematic part be the same as the pins physically a bit pointless
[12:16] <adamgreig> You wouldn't do it for an opamp, and you don't lay our the schematic based on physical positions
[12:17] <fsphil> that's fair
[12:17] <fsphil> though it would give you an early warning that you might have problems routing things
[12:17] <eroomde> no
[12:17] <eroomde> i am with adam
[12:17] <eroomde> symbols are always groupked functionally
[12:17] <eroomde> don't confuse schematic and layout
[12:18] <eroomde> some sort of hybrid sounds like it's asking for disaster
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[12:36] <fsphil> yeah that's true
[12:51] <fsphil> adamgreig: good idea prefixing the part numbers with the schematic page number
[13:00] <Laurenceb> http://noflyzano.com/
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[13:10] <darsie> What kind of balloons need a permission to fly?
[13:11] <darsie> I once released a solar tetroon.
[13:11] <darsie> In Austria.
[13:12] <darsie> But I'm interested in any locations regulations.
[13:12] <darsie> Or ... what can you fly without permission?
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[13:25] <eroomde> Darkside_: ^
[13:25] <eroomde> aussie regs question 4 u
[13:25] <craag> austria...
[13:25] <eroomde> oh sorry, dyslexic
[13:26] <BrainDamage> austria: the land of cangaroos and alps
[13:26] <darsie> Hitler, Schwarzenegger, Fritzl
[13:28] <Laurenceb> lol
[13:28] <darsie> Falco
[13:29] <craag> The answer to your original question darsie is that it's very country-dependent
[13:29] <eroomde> do we have an austrian flyers in here?
[13:29] <craag> in the uk there's a permission-exempt 'pico' category
[13:29] <craag> where the balloon + payload must be <2m across at all times
[13:30] <darsie> ok
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[13:30] <darsie> Any restritcions on payload mass/density/hardness?
[13:30] <craag> more than that and we have to apply for permission from the CAA, detailing the location of the launch
[13:30] <craag> <2m is quite hard to do anything dangerous in tbh
[13:30] <jonsowman> challenge accepted
[13:30] <craag> hah
[13:31] <eroomde> hyperdermic needle with fins
[13:31] <craag> yes ok
[13:31] <chris_99> heh
[13:31] <craag> on mass side at least :P
[13:31] <darsie> I guess a 10 g tungsten ball can destroy a jet turbine.
[13:31] <eroomde> doubt it
[13:32] <darsie> Hwo much lift does a 2 m balloon have?
[13:33] <eroomde> 2m is the maximum size of any linear dimension
[13:33] <eroomde> not just balloon diameter
[13:33] <eroomde> but it's easy to work out
[13:33] <darsie> k, I'll work ...
[13:33] <eroomde> volume of a sphere is (4/3)*pi*r^3
[13:34] <eroomde> r = 1
[13:34] <eroomde> o about 4 cubic meters
[13:34] <eroomde> if filled with helium, that gives you about 10N of lift per cubic meter
[13:34] <eroomde> therefore, 40N of left in total, from which you must subtract the weight of the balloon envelope
[13:35] <eroomde> the big BUT here is that such a balloon will not ascent very high at all
[13:35] <eroomde> you need the balloon to not be fully inflated at launch, so that its internal gas can expand as the outside pressure drops
[13:35] <eroomde> until the balloon has expanded tight, at which point the internal gas can no longer expand to match the ambient pressure, and so the lift starts to drop off, until you get into a float
[13:36] <eroomde> or until the balloon bursts open
[13:36] <darsie> I got abotu 5 kg lift.
[13:36] <darsie> without envelope.
[13:37] <darsie> So, payload might be 1 kg tungsten. That can do a lot of damage.
[13:38] <eroomde> certainly could
[13:38] <eroomde> but it probably wont be getting to airliner cruise height
[13:38] <darsie> I guess there are additional restrictions near airports.
[13:39] <eroomde> not for our pico balloons, i don't believe
[13:39] <eroomde> they are just exempt
[13:39] <darsie> So you can float 1 kg tungsten right next to airports?
[13:39] <UpuWork> does that even sound remotely sensible ?
[13:41] <darsie> BTW, I used H2.
[13:43] <gonzo_> the met office sondes are 6xAA batts.
[13:44] <darsie> That's some weight, but quite soft comparde to tungsten.
[13:44] <gonzo_> even though they put a couple of dozen up each day, it's a big sky and they are small
[13:44] <gonzo_> suspect it could stull upset a jet engine
[13:45] <gonzo_> I wonder if meto contact atc if they see sondes going towards air corridors?
[13:47] <Vostok_> they won't
[13:47] <Vostok_> sondes are pretty small
[13:47] <Vostok_> and rise fast
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[13:47] <Vostok_> also, they're rare
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[13:49] <gonzo_> they used to put up around 12 per day from 2 sites in the uk
[13:50] <gonzo_> not sure if that is still the case?
[13:50] <gonzo_> MoD sending their own up from some gunnery ranges
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[14:03] <Vostok_> gonzo_: mostly sondes launch at 00Z and 12Z around the globe. some places for some reasons launch more
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[14:29] <Vaizki_> eep it's Vostok
[14:29] <Vaizki_> more crazy finns
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[15:03] <adamgreig> fsphil, that's a kicad thing
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[15:03] <adamgreig> Can choose whether references are just incrementing or start at 100*page
[15:03] <adamgreig> It is handy. When you start a pcb it lays things out in page groups
[15:03] <eroomde> eagl;e does it too
[15:06] <eroomde> if you insert a frame it'll reference the frame number and the grid-location within the frame
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[15:17] <fsphil> ah excellent
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[16:26] <garymortimer> Salutations people of the North, I am struggling to get in here via my South African service provider so I am actually typing from a London VPN! Is anybody in the house that help this numpty with LoRa
[16:26] <garymortimer> can help
[16:28] <garymortimer> I have 2 98's connected to Unos that talk fine using the radiohead library. I am trying to make the UKHAS Net setup work and failing
[16:28] <garymortimer> I have a hunch its the library but that's where my knowledge ends
[16:28] <garymortimer> with radio head I am using the 95 library, let me get the right number
[16:29] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03NM5SS-10 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=NM5SS-10
[16:31] <garymortimer> RH_RF95 as an aside, I saw EOS T2 and thought gosh I used to fly hot air balloons from a field right next door, zoomed in and if you look right in the sat image to the next big open field you can see something on a trailer. Not entirely sure its a balloon
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[17:55] <Lunar_Lander> evening
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[17:57] <balloon> hello
[17:57] <balloon> any hdsdr users here?
[17:58] <balloon> because I'm having some problems with receiving the correct signal
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[18:09] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03F4HHV after 032 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=F4HHV
[18:10] <SA6BSS-Mike> using hdsdr quite alot so maby I can help you
[18:11] <balloon> awesome!
[18:11] <balloon> ok so I'm just having problems receiving correct signals
[18:11] <SA6BSS-Mike> ok
[18:11] <SA6BSS-Mike> what signal?
[18:11] <balloon> we set the program to USB (because we are following a guide that tells us to)
[18:12] <balloon> a signal coming from our tracker that we have here on the ground
[18:12] <balloon> just next to us
[18:12] <balloon> for testing
[18:12] <balloon> radio signal that is
[18:12] <SA6BSS-Mike> so you are receiving rtty with a sdr radio?
[18:12] <SA6BSS-Mike> 'waht radio?
[18:13] <balloon> i think so
[18:13] <balloon> never mind about the radio
[18:13] <SA6BSS-Mike> ok :)
[18:13] <balloon> i bought this set from sentintospace.com and there was a guide delivered with it but i am kind of stuck right now
[18:14] <SA6BSS-Mike> is it one of the launch kits?
[18:15] <balloon> no, we bought a special kit with a pi in the sky in it that measures temperature as well
[18:15] <SA6BSS-Mike> ok
[18:16] <balloon> so i have a certain frequency (434.15) that i'm supposed to set it to, but when I do nothing really happens
[18:16] <balloon> mind you everything is turned on of course XD
[18:16] <SA6BSS-Mike> and you can recive other stuf like local fm radio ?
[18:17] <daveake> personally I'd go to the supplier for support :/
[18:18] <balloon> yes we did at first, there were a lot of incoming signals, but after we downloaded a virtual cable everything died and now we're only receiving two faint signals that I think are not useable
[18:18] <balloon> yeah I am contacting them often but they're really slow
[18:18] <balloon> any ideas from you maybe?
[18:19] <SA6BSS-Mike> so no visual signal at all? radio type would realy help
[18:19] <balloon> what do you mean with radio type?
[18:20] <SA6BSS-Mike> what radio are you using?
[18:20] <SA6BSS-Mike> rtl, funcube, sdrplay, airspy....
[18:20] <balloon> rtl
[18:20] <balloon> i think
[18:21] <balloon> at least the dongle we are using is rtl
[18:21] <SA6BSS-Mike> like this http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0068/2142/products/rtl-sdr_1024x1024.png?v=1417125680
[18:21] <SA6BSS-Mike> might be blue as weel
[18:23] <SA6BSS-Mike> you put the rtl ext IO.dll in hdsdr folder?
[18:24] <SA6BSS-Mike> ExtIO_RTL.dll
[18:24] <balloon> one second i'm checking it
[18:25] <balloon> yeah there is in our hdsdr folder a file called ExtIO_RTL2832
[18:26] <SA6BSS-Mike> and no more with ExtIO in its name?
[18:26] <balloon> nope
[18:27] <balloon> but the button EctIO is on in the program
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[18:27] <balloon> extIO*
[18:27] <SA6BSS-Mike> great
[18:27] <SA6BSS-Mike> gain is up over 30db
[18:28] <balloon> what do you mean?
[18:30] <SA6BSS-Mike> when you press ExtIO in the program you get a gain slider
[18:30] <balloon> okay
[18:31] <SA6BSS-Mike> and then back to basic, try tune some fm stations
[18:32] <daveake> I'm confused/surprised about this bit - "there were a lot of incoming signals, but after we downloaded a virtual cable everything died"
[18:32] <daveake> VAC shouldn't make any difference whatsoever to the radio side
[18:33] <balloon> yeah maybe something else happened i dont know
[18:33] <daveake> When you say "lot of signals" you mean on the screen, or through the speakers ?
[18:33] <SA6BSS-Mike> under soundcard you shold go back to your regular soundcard
[18:33] <SA6BSS-Mike> in hdssdr
[18:34] <balloon> so regular soundcard is which one?
[18:34] <daveake> whatever is built in to your PC, as opposed to "VAC"
[18:35] <balloon> allright
[18:35] <eroomde> again with the reserved keyword nicks
[18:36] <balloon> so what happens now is that there is still no signal, but everything is set to non-VAC
[18:37] <SA6BSS-Mike> unpluged and repluged you rtl stick?
[18:37] <balloon> when i press the extio button the slider is stuck in position
[18:37] <SA6BSS-Mike> it can be if you have agc on
[18:39] <balloon> yes agc is on
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[18:40] <balloon> and also something else weird just happened, we unplugged the batteries from the tracker device (pi in the sky by the way) and we tried to plug it back, and when it was kind of halfway plugged in, we got a lot of signals again but when it was plugged in all the way they died again..
[18:40] <balloon> what do you make of that?
[18:40] <balloon> but also what about the ags? on or off?
[18:40] <balloon> agc*
[18:41] <daveake> new batteries?
[18:41] <daveake> You can just run it from USB power anyway
[18:42] <SA6BSS-Mike> agc on on might be to much trying to decode close to the payload
[18:42] <balloon> allright
[18:42] <SA6BSS-Mike> uncheck and slide down you get a clean signal
[18:46] <balloon> ok I unchecked the agc, and put the slider all the way down but it didnt help
[18:47] <balloon> o my god the 'warn' light on the chipboard just turned on what is this
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[18:48] <daveake> "chipboard" = ?
[18:48] <SA6BSS-Mike> putting kids to bed, afk...
[18:49] <balloon> sure
[18:49] <balloon> no problem
[18:50] <daveake> What do you mean by "chipboard"?
[18:56] <balloon> it's probably not the right word but what I mean with it is the pi in the sky itself
[18:56] <balloon> on which everything is connected
[18:57] <balloon> so now we are getting two signals that are obviously coming from our tracker, but they are really unclear and when we move it away from the laptop it disappears again
[19:03] <daveake> http://www.pi-in-the-sky.com/index.php?id=board-connections
[19:04] <daveake> So warn = lack of gps signal
[19:04] <daveake> or still getting a lock
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[19:12] <balloon> yeah it works now
[19:13] <balloon> we are getting signals that we can hear and everything
[19:13] <balloon> I think it's working
[19:13] <balloon> thanks everybody!
[19:14] <daveake> so what happened to make it work ?
[19:23] <daveake> answers on a postcard; might be quicker than IRC
[19:24] <SA6BSS-Mike> :)
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[19:38] <balloon> batteries XD
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[19:39] <daveake> <daveake> new batteries?
[19:39] <daveake> I win
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[19:48] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03K4UAH-12 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K4UAH-12
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[20:40] <mfa298> daveake: maybe you should send an invoice to sentintospace for providing support for the stuff they supply
[20:44] <daveake> I hear you :)
[20:45] <Andrew_> Hello all
[20:47] <Andrew_> had quite a nerve-breaking HABduino party today :D
[20:49] <Andrew_> trying to catch a signal with rtl sdr dongle
[20:49] <Upu> you launched ?
[20:49] <Andrew_> not at all Upu
[20:49] <Upu> oh ok
[20:50] <Andrew_> just testing @ home , trying to get signal on pc with Fldigi
[20:50] <Upu> ok :)
[20:50] <Andrew_> I did my best to follow the tutorial, but i'm a total newbie
[20:51] <Andrew_> chances are i messed up some settings too
[20:51] <Andrew_> have you used HABduino ?
[20:51] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, my team mates are quite happy about the MTX2 :)
[20:52] <Upu> golly good :)
[20:52] <daveake> s/g/j/
[20:54] <Lunar_Lander> also
[20:54] <Lunar_Lander> a #highaltitude premiere
[20:54] <Lunar_Lander> http://gerblook.org/pcb/ZhiVeU7xNDgAXtjjWKdwAj http://gerblook.org/pcb/6ePMK4Gkz7uydR5fNiAEH3 http://gerblook.org/pcb/bD3ENGsnsevvWepxG5fjWd
[20:55] <craag> fixed the gps antenna Lunar_Lander ?
[20:55] <Lunar_Lander> not yet, they are as earlier
[20:55] <craag> :)
[20:57] <zyp> Lunar_Lander, ground planes looks pretty poor, you should use more vias
[20:57] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[20:58] <craag> also you have vertical connectors on several boards
[20:58] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[20:58] <craag> only one can be on the top!
[20:58] <Lunar_Lander> true
[20:58] <zyp> the split planes on the gps/radio board also looks weird
[20:59] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:59] <Lunar_Lander> the one around the SMA is the ground of the SMA connector and of the transmitter
[21:00] <Lunar_Lander> I have something like that on my current board, with vias along the trace to the center pin
[21:00] <zyp> Lunar_Lander, that one is fair enough, but I'm not convinced that having a separate plane under the ublox is advantageous
[21:01] <Lunar_Lander> I agree, that was just a quick thing
[21:01] <Lunar_Lander> on my board I have now I have one big ground plane that stops short of the GPS antenna
[21:02] <zyp> also, that's pretty few parts for three boards
[21:02] <zyp> by the way, where are you planning to have the board made?
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[21:02] <Lunar_Lander> at hackvana I think
[21:03] <zyp> I was hoping you'd say oshpark, because then I'd suggest doing a single four layer board rather than three two layer boards :)
[21:03] <zyp> dunno what 4L pricing is at hackvana, if they even do it
[21:03] <zyp> but at oshpark that would be cheaper
[21:04] <eroomde> and lower risk
[21:04] <eroomde> spready different bits out among different boards
[21:04] <zyp> 4L would let you put parts on both sides and still dedicate a full layer to a ground plane, which should let you put all that on one board of the same size
[21:05] <zyp> it'd be lighter and better
[21:05] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:06] <zyp> disadvantage with doing 4L is that you tend to get hooked on it :)
[21:06] <Lunar_Lander> true
[21:08] <zyp> once you can dedicate layers to ground and power, the remaining traces is usually pretty much just point to point signals, which really simplifies routing
[21:08] <zyp> it's kinda annoying to go back to 2L afterwards :)
[21:08] <Lunar_Lander> that is true
[21:09] <Lunar_Lander> power routing is, yea
[21:09] <Lunar_Lander> :D
[21:09] <zyp> I always love it when I've got an excuse to do 4L :p
[21:09] <Lunar_Lander> yeah :D
[21:09] <Lunar_Lander> 4L is available at hackvana btw
[21:09] <zyp> and I just gave you one ;)
[21:09] <Lunar_Lander> of course more expensive
[21:09] <zyp> how's pricing compared to 2L?
[21:10] <Lunar_Lander> let me check
[21:10] <zyp> at oshpark it's double, which is pretty fair for prototyping
[21:10] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:10] <zyp> in volume the difference is much smaller
[21:10] <Lunar_Lander> the boards are 5x5cm, he charges $19 for this special size
[21:11] Nick change: Steffanx -> Steffann
[21:11] <Lunar_Lander> he doesn't say what 4L costs in his guide
[21:11] <Lunar_Lander> would have to talk to him and ask
[21:13] <Lunar_Lander> I can imagine the power board could merge with the processor board
[21:14] <zyp> do you have anything against double sided assembly?
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander> no
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> did you click the "Back" button on the gerblook page?
[21:15] <zyp> then you shouldn't have any problems getting everything to fit on one board
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> like http://gerblook.org/pcb/6ePMK4Gkz7uydR5fNiAEH3#back
[21:15] <zyp> oh, right, missed that
[21:15] <zyp> but still
[21:16] <zyp> when you get rid of the board to board connectors, you've got lots of spare area :)
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:16] <zyp> I'd say that the board to board connectors are inventing the problem they are solving
[21:17] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:18] <Lunar_Lander> the idea was to get rid of this https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1lke6hPHKJDck9JTEtReEQzR3M/view
[21:19] <zyp> replace one messy solution by another? :)
[21:20] <Lunar_Lander> well
[21:20] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:20] <Lunar_Lander> the old board wasnt that bad, it missed a lot of stuff though
[21:21] <Lunar_Lander> proper connectors for debugging, ground connectors for periphery and other stuff
[21:21] <Lunar_Lander> then we added the servo for our cutdown and suddenly needed a 5V line as well
[21:24] <Laurenceb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwWXFSO4h6g
[21:24] <Lunar_Lander> cool:)
[21:24] <Lunar_Lander> thanks for the feedback so far zyp
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[23:06] <Ian_> Lunar_Lander is your first board at [20:54] is LED1 the wrong way round. Cathode of silkscreen at + end of things and the anode to Ground . . . won't light up that way!?
[23:06] <Ian_> Looks impressive though ;-)
[23:06] <Lunar_Lander> thanks :)
[23:06] <Lunar_Lander> one sec
[23:10] <Lunar_Lander> thanks for pointing it out :)
[23:10] <Ian_> unfortunately I only do the low hanging fruit, but the clever guys do the difficult bits!
[23:12] <craag> we're too busy telling him we don't like the look of it :P
[23:13] <craag> hadn't noticed that fatal flaw...
[23:13] <craag> oops
[23:13] <craag> :D
[23:23] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[23:23] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-11 after 0312 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-11
[23:34] <Ian_> I was thinking about the LEDs someone was talking about with an arrow symbol on them pointed towards the anode . . . Dead helpful!
[23:34] <Ian_> That was a week or two ago I believe.
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[23:52] <Laurenceb> Lunar_Lander: the µSD card might jam on those pin headers
[23:52] <Lunar_Lander> that is what I was thinking about
[23:52] <Lunar_Lander> put it in just for seeing if the header could fit theoretically
[00:00] --- Sat Nov 21 2015