highaltitude.log.20151118

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[08:43] <eroomde> Chimpusmaximus: nice!
[08:48] <Chimpusmaximus> eroomde: thanks, hope for return of sd cards.
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[11:22] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03CHANGEME after 032 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CHANGEME
[11:23] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SP6NVB-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-11
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[12:13] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03VE2WMG-11 after 034 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VE2WMG-11
[12:20] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SP6NVB-12 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-12
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[13:07] <Laurenceb> lol torquing went bankrupt
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[13:21] <Laurenceb> https://www.linkedin.com/in/ivan-reedman-7b159237
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[13:27] <eroomde> what was it Laurenceb?
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[13:27] <Laurenceb> largest Kickstarter outside of US
[13:28] <Laurenceb> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/34787404
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[13:31] <eroomde> oh
[13:31] <eroomde> silly
[13:31] <Laurenceb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgkbhjXTbOEa
[13:31] <Laurenceb> lolling hard
[13:32] <eroomde> i don't see why people are surprised by kickstarter failures
[13:32] <eroomde> it's obviously extremely risky
[13:33] <eroomde> people who know how to mass produce thing generally also know how to write a business plan and get some capital
[13:33] <adamgreig> because most of these backers were more or less lead to believe they were preordering a product
[13:33] <eroomde> instead of just lobbing something over the wall and hoping it doesn't blow up in their face
[13:33] <adamgreig> kickstarter must be in an awful place, having presumably sincerely wanted to start out as a nice way to support things that could never get capital - dance shows, a theatrical thing, whatever
[13:33] <eroomde> with 10x the money you wanted you're shackled to a manufacturing operation 10x larger than you planned for or expected
[13:33] <adamgreig> and suddenly it's being used by all these sketchy people selling dream-level electronics gizmos to the public
[13:33] <eroomde> it's worse than only just succeeding
[13:34] <adamgreig> yea, that seems to kill as many things as not getting funded at all
[13:34] <Laurenceb> its easy to blow a ton of money on a new product
[13:34] <craag> of course you can limit the number of products available
[13:34] <adamgreig> people are just not prepared to deal with running a manufacturing gig that big
[13:34] <craag> but no-one ever does (it seems)
[13:34] <Laurenceb> we spent £38M on a new medical sensor
[13:34] <adamgreig> craag: but that's a tough one! no one wants to refuse money right
[13:34] <craag> mm
[13:35] <adamgreig> I'm sure if I had some kickstarter up for some electronics thing
[13:35] <adamgreig> I'd be like, well, it's 10x more than I planned to make, but I guess I can get someone else to do the assembly..
[13:35] <mattbrejza> not sure zano had even been developed at teh start of the kickstarter
[13:35] <adamgreig> and I guess some things are cheaper in bulk... etc
[13:35] <adamgreig> you don't see the logistics and shipping and returns and customer support and oh, christ, I'm having a bad time just imagining it
[13:35] <craag> i have a friend in oxford who's currently doing manufacturing for a successful kickstarter, and not finding the volume production much fun at all
[13:36] <eroomde> mmm, but you become a victim of having so many prototypes out there in the wild with owners demanding support, too
[13:36] <adamgreig> a lot of problems what are very very different problems to the sort of prototype-level design you're used to
[13:36] <eroomde> i'd want to sell 100 to early adopters and use all that for a v2
[13:36] <adamgreig> suddenly it's about the yield rates on your 10k units out there and your QA and bla bla bla?
[13:36] <adamgreig> I can only imagine
[13:36] <craag> was meant to be a project of his company, it now employs more people than the rest of the company..
[13:36] <eroomde> exactly so
[13:37] <eroomde> it becomes a noose almost
[13:37] <adamgreig> and you're totally ill equipped to handle any of these problems
[13:37] <eroomde> you'll be forever dealing with angries on your mailing list
[13:37] <adamgreig> and they'll probably be legit angry and you'll know it, which must suck too
[13:38] <adamgreig> cuz you mucked up the aperture on your paste mask and now 1% of units have a poorly soldered joint on one pin under some QFN
[13:38] <adamgreig> but you don't have x-ray inspection on your QA process because it was too expensive
[13:38] <mattbrejza> i wonder what the average £/hr rate is for someone doing a kickstarter
[13:38] <adamgreig> and now you have to employ someone to handle returns and replacements
[13:39] <adamgreig> it sounds awful basically
[13:39] Action: Laurenceb used to manage a ton a vehicle dataloggers, lots of similar issues
[13:39] <adamgreig> i prefer backing someone like "i wanna make this fun game what I have an idea for"
[13:39] <eroomde> your first 10 customers are the ones you looka after closely :)
[13:39] <Laurenceb> the returned units that had been utterly destroyed in various weird ways were amusing
[13:39] <eroomde> we have maby 20 datalogger boxes outside ael now
[13:40] <eroomde> unis, other companies
[13:40] <eroomde> and i not infrequently do personal visits and stuff
[13:40] <Laurenceb> one was run over by a caterpillar tracked JBC
[13:40] <eroomde> oh yeah with the cutdowns it's incredible
[13:40] <eroomde> that's maybe a 30/yr volume product
[13:40] <eroomde> and the odd return is staggering
[13:41] <eroomde> like 'it's not working i demand a new one' and what gets sent back is the pcb taken out of its ip67 sealed enclosure, connectors removed, random hotwires soldered directly to a bit of pcb trace with the solder resist scratched off
[13:41] <Laurenceb> managing a few hundred dataloggers was virtually a full time job
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[13:41] <eroomde> you email back along the lines of 'what the fuck is this?' and they say 'well i had to save a few grammes, what of it? i still demand a new one'
[13:41] <adamgreig> lol
[13:42] <eroomde> and then they learn that the customer is not always right, when it's me doing the selling
[13:42] <adamgreig> I bet upu has a bunch of fun stories along that line too
[13:42] <adamgreig> having said all that though, I think "most" of the kickstarters I back and up delivering and I'm happy
[13:42] <adamgreig> made the mistake of checking and so far at 46 projects backed on kickstarter(!)
[13:42] <eroomde> wow
[13:42] <UpuWork> crikey
[13:43] <mattbrejza> do you occasionally get suprised by a kickstarter you forgot about turning up on your doorstep?
[13:43] <adamgreig> amusingly they're all public too https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/adamgreig
[13:43] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: lol yea
[13:44] <mattbrejza> it helps that most of yours arnt hardware
[13:44] <adamgreig> kickstarter breaks it down as 3 film/video, 5 design, 6 comics, 9 technology, 4 publishing, 3 music, 2 journalism and 14 games
[13:45] <eroomde> it's all good for that
[13:45] <mattbrejza> hows your opensource laser cutter...?
[13:45] <adamgreig> though of the hardware I backed - both pebbles were great, the bladeRF and hackRF are both great, my quadshot was fun until I lost it
[13:45] <eroomde> but with mechanical things and test equipment and so on, the general pattern you keep seeing is that it's people who don't know what they're doing, selling to people who don't know what they're doing
[13:45] <Laurenceb> these guys look trustworthy http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/IMG_4893.jpg
[13:45] <eroomde> was bladerf kickstarter?
[13:45] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: well I backed htem for some stickers and got some stickers and they eventually released an open source laser cutter design I guess... that was back in like 2010 and things were different :P
[13:46] <adamgreig> yea eroomde
[13:46] <eroomde> oh right
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[13:46] <adamgreig> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1085541682/bladerf-usb-30-software-defined-radio
[13:46] <eroomde> that's pretty good
[13:46] <adamgreig> they had one working before they kickstartered aiui
[13:46] <adamgreig> and I think manufacture and distribution is handled by a company they contract
[13:46] <eroomde> yeah
[13:47] <eroomde> and also 200k funding
[13:47] <adamgreig> more sensible levels of money
[13:47] <eroomde> that's quite easily handled by a one man operation
[13:47] <adamgreig> not like, oh shit, $5M, gotta make 100k of the world's best SDRs
[13:47] <eroomde> that's the sort of money i'll spend on a project at work, and doesn't cause problems
[13:47] <adamgreig> mm
[13:47] <eroomde> i wouldn't want to handle 10x that without proper accountants and tax people and so on
[13:47] <adamgreig> the original pebble though
[13:48] <adamgreig> they raised millions and somehow pulled through
[13:48] <eroomde> although it's still pretty easy to spend that when you're doing rockets
[13:48] <adamgreig> delivered on time and with a really good product
[13:48] <adamgreig> rare
[13:48] <adamgreig> I think mostly I just steer well clear of the sort of thing you mention - people who don't know what they're doing selling to likewise
[13:48] <adamgreig> I might not be able to design test kit but at least I think I know it when I see it
[13:48] <eroomde> yes exactly
[13:49] <eroomde> you know that if you have £100 to spend on an x, it's likely the first port of call is to get whatever generation of x that was made by HP that is <=£100
[13:49] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[13:49] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0_
[13:49] <adamgreig> quite
[13:49] Nick change: fl_0_ -> fl_0
[13:50] <eroomde> have you read the chapter on the 34401 DMM front end in art of electronics 3rd ed?
[13:50] <eroomde> it gives you proper resepct for those engineers
[13:50] <eroomde> and you just know the people on kickstarter claiming some accuracy because they used a 20bit ADC just have no idea what they're talking about, and don't even know enough to know that they have no idea what they're talking about
[13:51] <adamgreig> you mean they don't really have 120dB SNR?
[13:52] <eroomde> a cruel surprise huh
[13:52] <adamgreig> but i need at least that to measure the effects of my new hobby project!!
[13:52] <adamgreig> how else will i show that i've finally got {free energy|free momentum|free money}
[13:53] <mattbrejza> wheres the emdrive kickstarter?
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[13:53] <RealBorg> it was not on kickstarter
[13:54] <mattbrejza> im wondering when it will be
[13:54] <adamgreig> kickstarter doesn't allow that sort of crap
[13:54] <adamgreig> indiegogo
[13:54] <chris_99> heh the wifi UPS closed early saying 'Thanks our dear backers. The world is not yet ready for this. Thank you for support.'
[13:54] <adamgreig> aww
[13:54] <day> chris_99: that wifi UPS thing was gold :D
[13:54] <chris_99> mmm
[13:55] <day> the energy assumptions they made haha
[13:55] <chris_99> i was bored so contacted KS about it, but they weren't especially helpful
[13:55] <daveake> what's this?
[13:55] <adamgreig> a battery that recharges via captured wifi energy
[13:55] <daveake> riiiiiiiiiiiiight
[13:55] <adamgreig> power your phone/laptop/server/wifi access point/etc
[13:56] <day> and the video... :D *let me randomly rotate imaginary objects on my screen for 5minutes*
[13:56] <daveake> Seen the ultrasonic wireless recharger?
[13:56] <adamgreig> yea
[13:56] <chris_99> didn't it fail to work in their demo
[13:56] <eroomde> that's been blasted to pieces
[13:56] <daveake> as would your ears be
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[13:56] <chris_99> heh
[13:56] <daveake> plus those of any cats or dogs in the area
[13:57] <chris_99> maybe it's above animals hearing
[13:57] <adamgreig> I preferred the ultrasonic marketing thing
[13:57] <gonzo_> ultrasonic charging on a nokia... The Batphone?
[13:57] <day> iBat
[13:57] <chris_99> haha
[13:57] <chris_99> harnessing the power of bats, sounds a cunning idea
[13:57] <gonzo_> I have a red 746 GPO phone. Really needs a bell jar to put over it
[13:57] <day> iBat by Dr. Dre to be precise
[13:57] <gonzo_> sounds a bit batty to me
[13:58] <day> then its perfect for the target group
[13:58] <Hix> is Upu's shop still selling uBlox modules? Can only find breakout boards
[13:58] <UpuWork> yeah it is
[13:58] <UpuWork> Ublox asked me to stop advertising I sell modules
[13:58] <Hix> ah oki
[13:58] <UpuWork> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_64&product_id=123 CAM-M8Q
[13:58] <UpuWork> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_64&product_id=107 MAX-M8Q
[13:58] <UpuWork> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_64&product_id=108 MAX-M8C
[13:58] <Hix> ta!
[13:58] <day> UpuWork: any idea why they would say that? :o
[13:58] <UpuWork> but they never explicitly told me to stop selling them
[13:59] <UpuWork> oo I dunno maybe I peed off a euro distributor or two
[13:59] <day> right. that sounds like a reasonable explanation
[14:01] <Hix> only difference between MAX-M8C/Q is input voltage correct?
[14:01] <UpuWork> Q has a TCXO, C doesn't
[14:01] <UpuWork> C uses more backup current
[14:01] <Hix> ah, cool missed that. Cheers
[14:02] <UpuWork> C runs from 1.7-3.6 Q from 2.7 to 3.6
[14:02] <UpuWork> officially
[14:03] <adamgreig> the tcxo on the q is only good from 2.7v iirc
[14:03] <UpuWork> I know its been run down to 2.2V
[14:03] <adamgreig> you'd think they'd just fit a 1v8 tcxo and a regulator or something
[14:03] <adamgreig> there are some reasons not to i suppose
[14:04] <adamgreig> no room for a regulator for one, lol
[14:04] <eroomde> 2v2 from cold or started at 2v7 then lowered?
[14:04] <day> what amazes me is that ublox doesnt seem to have any issues with ripoffs, while every other silicon distributor gets his chips cloned
[14:04] <eroomde> they do
[14:04] <day> do those have the cocom limitations as well?
[14:04] <adamgreig> lol they definitely have issues with attempted knockoffs
[14:05] <day> at least if i would clone that thing i woudl remove that limitation
[14:05] <adamgreig> why bother?
[14:05] <day> idk. your product would be better than the original maybe?
[14:06] <day> everyone from this channel would buy the ripoffs
[14:06] Nick change: M0XIN_ -> M0XIN
[14:06] <eroomde> only for rocketry
[14:07] <adamgreig> for hab stuff the cocom limits are no issue
[14:07] <adamgreig> some manufacturer's implementations moreso..
[14:29] <cm13g09> mfa298: ping
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[15:01] <SpeedEvil> adamgreig: For most HAB stuff :)
[15:01] <adamgreig> I would enjoy seeing a hab project where the altitude and speed COCOM limits are simultaneously violated
[15:02] <adamgreig> feel like that's probably more of a rocketry project at that point
[15:02] <eroomde> yes
[15:02] <eroomde> agreed
[15:02] <eroomde> rockoon maybe
[15:03] <adamgreig> i think you could fairly call a rockoon a rocketry project too
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[15:11] <Laurenceb> are there any other people or teams looking at rockoons?
[15:11] <Laurenceb> last I came across was Bristol SEDS iirc, and they basically gave up it seems
[15:13] <adamgreig> i can't think of any currently-active hobbyist rockoon projects
[15:14] <adamgreig> yours is an unusual direction i think
[15:15] <Laurenceb> it is a very hard project to pull off
[15:15] <adamgreig> mm
[15:15] <Laurenceb> like playing whack a mole with all the engineering problems
[15:15] <adamgreig> legally interesting too which i imagine deters a fair few serious contenders
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[15:17] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: It's 'easy' taking the simple no-maths approach
[15:18] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: It just runs into engineering and budget issues.
[15:18] <SpeedEvil> Actually thinking in depth about stuff, especially using deeper than the average math is hard
[15:18] <Laurenceb> what simple approach is that?
[15:18] <SpeedEvil> large multi-stage rocket from the ground.
[15:18] <adamgreig> not really a rockoon at that point
[15:18] <SpeedEvil> It's conceptually simple at least.
[15:18] <Laurenceb> thats not a rockoon :P
[15:18] <SpeedEvil> yes, I know
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> And once you're on that sort of approach, you can't put it on a balloon because it needs to be a billion meters across
[15:19] <Laurenceb> I think I've made a pretty significant breakthrough with the Estes powered spinup
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[15:19] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[15:19] <Laurenceb> all the other aspects have at least been done previously
[15:20] <Laurenceb> the spin up was the major headache and I'm hitting the target torque free precession now
[15:20] <SpeedEvil> The spinup without grossly changing pointing, and auto-balancing, and understanding the precession and ... issues is hard
[15:20] <Laurenceb> yes its enough to drive you bonkers
[15:20] <SpeedEvil> There are lots of regions where it jsut won't work for no apparante reason if you don't do the maths.
[15:21] <Laurenceb> its also the reason Chernobyl exploded
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> I thought that was aliens.
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[15:23] <Laurenceb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_involvement_in_the_Chernobyl_disaster#Victims_and_other_on-site_persons
[15:23] <Laurenceb> search for Metlenko, Gennady Petrovich
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[15:24] <SpeedEvil> ah
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[16:00] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03F4HHV after 032 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=F4HHV
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[16:33] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DL0CRE - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL0CRE
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[17:14] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KD0ZTV-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD0ZTV-1
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[18:21] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[18:28] <daveake> hello
[18:29] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[18:29] <Lunar_Lander> new toys!
[18:29] <Lunar_Lander> not the mtx2 yet however
[18:29] <Lunar_Lander> but bme280 :)
[18:31] <Chimpusmaximus> Replacement for BMP180?
[18:32] <Lunar_Lander> at the moment just for trying it out
[18:32] <Lunar_Lander> not planning to use it as a replacement right now
[18:33] <Chimpusmaximus> Does look interesting looking at spec
[18:33] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[18:33] <Lunar_Lander> BMP is nice for measuring payload temperature besides the pressure
[18:34] <Lunar_Lander> but BME must be mounted outdoors somewhere, because otherwise the humidity measurement is unused capability
[18:35] <Chimpusmaximus> fair point
[18:35] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[18:35] <Chimpusmaximus> might have to add my my wish list to look into
[18:36] <Lunar_Lander> that's the reason why I was a bit reluctant on it
[18:36] <Lunar_Lander> if you use BME, and want inside temperature too, you need one more sensor inside
[18:36] <Lunar_Lander> if you have a BMP inside, you have two pressure measurements
[18:36] <Lunar_Lander> (which could have uses, but one measurement should be enough)
[18:37] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP6NVB-11 after 037 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP6NVB-11
[18:37] <daveake> Ah yeah I have the BME280 here ... been meaning to add support to pits
[18:40] <Chimpusmaximus> Got a SI1145 UV Sensor and TSL2591 Light Sensor to play with first
[18:42] <daveake> I have some Arduino code for the SI1145 from a school flight a while back
[18:42] <daveake> Why do you need both ?
[18:45] <Chimpusmaximus> Local school was looking at LUX and UV levels so acquired to have a look at.
[18:49] <Chimpusmaximus> Plan to hook them up to a simple data logger rather than modify PITS.
[18:54] <Lunar_Lander> btw, intermission
[18:54] <Lunar_Lander> can you have a via inside a pad?
[18:55] <nick_> You can, but should you?
[18:57] <BrainDamage> careful, if it's not a tented via you'll risk to have the solder being sucked into the via hole by surface tension
[18:57] <BrainDamage> if you only make 1 board you can fix it manually
[18:58] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[18:58] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[18:59] <BrainDamage> also even if it's tented it'll be a considerably higher thermal load since the vias will increase the dissipative area
[19:01] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:01] <Lunar_Lander> thanks for the tip :)
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[19:16] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03EOS_T2 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=EOS_T2
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[20:52] <Laurenceb> https://i.sli.mg/iiKaBu.png
[20:53] Nick change: SM0ULC-R1b -> SM0ULC
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[21:59] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PIGLET - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PIGLET
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[00:00] --- Thu Nov 19 2015