highaltitude.log.20151105

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[00:42] <BrainDamage> re testing on a chicken: http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--p1WYHB5X--/1504710669185749395.gif
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[05:44] <mbales> beaverone, you up?
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[09:52] <fab4space> hello all
[09:53] <fab4space> daveake, craag what were the best settings that you have used with PITS Lora 434 for sending SSDV images?
[09:53] <fab4space> bandwith, SF, duty cycle (based on bw and power level)
[09:54] <daveake> I've only used one set for SSDV
[09:55] <daveake> WHich in my code has a shortcut of "mode 1"
[09:55] <daveake> See https://github.com/PiInTheSky/pits/blob/master/tracker/lora.c
[09:56] <fab4space> of SF6 20Khz 4/5 FEC equivalent 1400bps
[09:56] <fab4space> ok SF6 20Khz 4/5 FEC equivalent 1400bps
[09:56] <fab4space> with 100% duty cycle I guess?
[09:57] <daveake> yes ofc
[09:57] <fab4space> what was the receiving range with colinear aerials? do you had issues with frequency drift?
[09:58] <daveake> It's comparable with 300 baud rtty
[09:58] <fab4space> good for the range :)
[09:58] <fab4space> any issue with freq drift with 20.8Khz bandwith?
[09:59] <daveake> Drift no
[09:59] <daveake> The modules do need initial tuning though
[10:00] <fab4space> is it described somewhere how to do this tuning? is it for the transmitting modules , receiving or both?
[10:00] <daveake> Each receiver should do it
[10:01] <daveake> see retune() in https://github.com/PiInTheSky/lora-gateway/blob/master/gateway.c
[10:03] <fab4space> ok, is it dependant on the transmitter temperature,? or fixed and only based on the transmitter /receiver crystals combination?
[10:04] <daveake> latter primarily but the AFC fixes both
[10:05] <fab4space> ok
[10:05] <fab4space> In fact I plan to design a gateway with dual LoRa modules
[10:05] <daveake> ok
[10:05] <fab4space> a Anylink DP1276 with TCXO for 144.650Mhz and and RFM98W for 434Mhz
[10:06] <fab4space> for the DP1276 I don't need frequency tuning it is very stable
[10:06] <fab4space> I have seen that the azsxdc keyx can affect only of the 2 modules based on the shift key
[10:06] <fab4space> but I'm wondering if the AFC can be enabled or not only for one of the 2 modules
[10:07] <daveake> You may still need AFC; it depends on the stability at the transmitter
[10:07] <daveake> Yes ofc they are separate modules you can do AFC on either or both
[10:07] <fab4space> ok nice :)
[10:07] <daveake> This is just up to your code
[10:08] <fab4space> is the tuning done in multiple of khz really ? cannot it be done in multiple of Hz ?
[10:09] <daveake> It's isn't integer multiples of kHz
[10:09] <daveake> Not that it would matter if it was
[10:16] <fab4space> a increase frequency by 100kHz
[10:17] <fab4space> so we cannot use manual tuning for this initial tuning isn't it?
[10:18] <fab4space> "d increase frequency by 1kHz"
[10:18] <fab4space> we cannot manually change tuning by lower values than 1khz but AFC can isn't it?
[10:23] <dbrooke> it will decode fine within a few kHz offset at 20.8kHz bandwidth
[10:23] <fab4space> ok
[10:24] <dbrooke> the AFC currently corrects if the error exceeds 500Hz
[10:24] <fab4space> so what is the procedure for doing this tuning before launching the balloon?
[10:24] <fab4space> (the manual one)
[10:25] <dbrooke> AFC should probably have a threshold dependent on bandwidth to avoid unnecessary retuning but I've not yet got around to doing some tests
[10:26] <Laurenceb> what http://tech.slashdot.org/story/15/11/04/2254255/experimental-air-force-rocket-launch-fails
[10:26] <Laurenceb> Video footage of the event shows the rocket spiraling out of control as it falls back down to Earth, leaving a crooked contrail in its wake
[10:26] <Laurenceb> no thats not what I see
[10:27] <dbrooke> fab4space: if it isn't already decoding, based on the initial configured frequency setting, then just tune up/down a bit until it does, optionally enable AFC to pull it in
[10:29] <fab4space> ok thanks dbrooke
[10:29] <Laurenceb> what actually happened
[10:29] <Laurenceb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXvvdGbB1cU
[10:30] <fab4space> can it be done several weeks before the launch ?
[10:30] <dbrooke> fab4space: remember to wait long enough at each frequency for a complete packet, it's not like RTTY where you can see individual characters part way through a sentence
[10:30] <fab4space> or do we need to do it only when the balloon is in line of sight
[10:30] <daveake> What you're fixing is the difference between crystals
[10:31] <daveake> So you can do it anytime
[10:31] <fab4space> that's a good news ok :)
[10:31] <daveake> AFC will take care of any temeperature-induced changes during flight (though I doubt it will need to)
[10:32] <fab4space> we can imagine to have a reference crystal frequency
[10:32] <fab4space> and that each module will send in its ID packet its calling mode packet its difference with the ref crystal
[10:32] <dbrooke> fab4space: if you do it in advance then note the corrected frequency and put that in the config file so it will be correct next time you restart the gateway
[10:33] <daveake> Calling mode fixes all this anyway
[10:33] <fab4space> and send the calling mode packet with a very large bandwith (but low duty cycle)
[10:33] <fab4space> so that even if there is freq shift it canbe decoded
[10:33] <daveake> Yes ofc
[10:33] <daveake> this all exists
[10:33] <daveake> Not flown it yet mind :)
[10:34] <fab4space> ok good
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[11:21] <eroomde> re-reading Ignition!, on next steps in propellent combinations: "The only people who've had any luck trapping free radicals are the FBI."
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[12:10] <Laurenceb> eroomde :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXvvdGbB1cU
[12:11] <Laurenceb> I'm confused... what do you think went wrong? 0:48 +
[12:12] <eroomde> nfi
[12:12] <Laurenceb> maybe a fin ripped off
[12:12] <eroomde> maybe the RCS gave up, maybe they got their static margin calcs all wrong, i dunno
[12:12] <Laurenceb> looks like it was a little while after max Q
[12:13] <Laurenceb> odd as I thought the first stage had few modifications made
[12:17] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/UJnSg6y.png
[12:17] <Laurenceb> test stand looking good
[12:26] <Laurenceb> unless I misinterpreted the video and its actually past max Q
[12:28] <Laurenceb> ah yeah I think I might see the issue
[12:29] <Laurenceb> it might be past max Q, and what I thought was vapour off the fin is something very bad happening to the nozzle
[12:29] <Laurenceb> that would explain it, and it also what they were worried would happen
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[13:08] <Oddstr13> Laurenceb: that actually looks a lot like when I fail at center of gravity in KSP (sorry eroomde, know you don't like me comparing real rocketry to KSP :P)
[13:09] <Oddstr13> front end gets too heavy compared to amount of thrust the engine gives, or something
[13:21] <fsphil> Mars has weird aurora: http://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2015/11/Mars_night-time_aurora
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[13:29] <fsphil> love this: http://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/istp/outreach/images/Aurora/geocorona.jpg
[13:30] <fsphil> earth aurora photo from "Dynamics Explorer-1"
[13:32] <Oddstr13> nice
[13:33] <fsphil> not sure what the banding around the equator is
[13:34] <fsphil> possibly http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2006/space_weather_link.html
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[15:41] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03LCARS_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=LCARS_chase
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[15:49] <PaulZC> Hi Gang. Can you give me a bit of advice? I'm going to be sending a data packet every second from my pico balloon project and the packet length will be ~100 characters. I'm going to need a data rate around 2400 Baud. I'm just wondering what transmitter and protocol you'd recommend and whether it is still possible to be compatible with dl-fldigi at this data rate? I've been looking at the LPRS eRIC and easyRadio modules. They're nice, but the protocol
[15:49] <PaulZC> is hidden and there seems to be no way I could use an AirSpy as the receiver unless I use them purely in raw mode...
[15:51] <fsphil> annoyingly dl-fldigi falls apart above 600 baud
[15:51] <gonzo_> what is it that requires 1sec updates?
[15:51] <gonzo_> also, if you use something non standardx, you will be the only person receiving it.
[15:52] <eroomde> PaulZC: which country are you in?
[15:52] <fsphil> the #ukhasnet crew have been using rfm modules at 2000 baud
[15:52] <PaulZC> Fast samples of pressure, humidity, temperature and dust content (plus position, altitude etc...). I'm aiming for ~5m resolution... I'm in the UK.
[15:52] <craag> However the #ukhasnet crew have'nt reliably got more than about 50km out of them
[15:52] <eroomde> 2.4kbps might be optimistic for a uk balloon
[15:52] <eroomde> given the distances involved and the power limits
[15:53] <craag> could be doable with LoRa (although it's also a nasty closed protocol)
[15:53] <gonzo_> possibly loggiong that data onboard, then using a simpler tracker to try and recover5 it afterwatrds?
[15:54] <PaulZC> I only need 10km. Basically straight up with a disposable payload. Probably no parachute and ditch in the sea where possible...
[15:54] <fsphil> 300 bits per second is still a fair bit. over 9 int32_t's :)
[15:55] <eroomde> why only 10km range?
[15:55] <daveake> Can't this data be compressed ?
[15:55] <eroomde> what's the goal of this project, if you don't mind me asking?
[15:57] <gonzo_> straight up (I assume you mean ascending vertically), and to that alt, you should stand a good chance of recoivering it
[15:57] <PaulZC> It's a ~50g payload I'm designing for pico balloon launches at Cherenkov Telescope Array sites (La Palma and Chile ultimately, following testing in the UK). We need to be able to detect the presence of atmospheric dust above the telescope. There are other ways of doing it but there's quite a bit of interest from the scientific community in a low cost (~£50) payload.
[15:58] <eroomde> ok cool
[15:58] <eroomde> nice
[15:58] <eroomde> maybe LoRa then, but yes you'd loose dl-fldigi and openness and amateur radioness and so on
[15:59] <craag> but you'd also make receiving a lot less hands-on
[15:59] <craag> which is probably what you're after
[15:59] <eroomde> tho if it's just some sort of integer representation for dustiness vs altitude, i'd be surprised if you need 2.4kbps
[15:59] <eroomde> yes
[15:59] <gonzo_> the ukhas comminuty may not be much help in chille!
[15:59] <Laurenceb> how will you be detecting the dust?
[15:59] <craag> send binary integers, lora handles checksums and does crude fec
[15:59] <Laurenceb> and yeah LoRa should work well
[16:00] <gonzo_> but restrictive radio allocations may be an issue testing in the uk
[16:00] <fsphil> I'm available for travel if needed ;)
[16:00] <Laurenceb> especially as there will be little interference there
[16:00] <Laurenceb> LoRa is quite wide and has poorish co-channel rejection
[16:00] <PaulZC> Yeah. I'm sure the LPRS modules will work, but if the signal starts to break up I suspect I'll get nothing, rather than being able to coax something out of an AirSpy albeit with errors...
[16:00] <craag> The width helps deal with crystal temp/mismatch
[16:01] <craag> and probably won't need to worry too much about interference doing air -> gnd
[16:01] <eroomde> i'd link budget it so you're a very comfortably able to take soundings within your desired range
[16:01] <eroomde> if this is a product
[16:01] <craag> scientific data coming through with invalid checksum isn't scientific data
[16:02] <PaulZC> Sharp do a nice, very cheap, very light, sensor module designed to detect dust in laser printers. It is sensitive enough to detect cigarette smoke. Calibrating it will be a challenge though.
[16:02] <eroomde> i.e. i wouldn't worry about receiving and making sense of things when the link gets very marginal
[16:02] <gonzo_> as long as you are line of sight, just use bigger/higher gain antennas on the ground to make up for the link budget
[16:05] <craag> I'd stick with omni antennas and adjust the bitrate
[16:06] <craag> It looks a lot more pro if you can just sit back and watch the data come in
[16:06] <craag> a lot less stressful too :)
[16:08] <chris_99> dumb idea, at around 434MHz/868MHz, is there space to use multiple frequencies, to boost the datarate out of interest
[16:09] <Laurenceb> <PaulZC> I highly suspect that module isnt going to be sensitive enough
[16:09] <Laurenceb> maybe a free space laser system
[16:09] <eroomde> that's a bit of a grey area - using up multiple channels
[16:09] <chris_99> ah, is it not allowed
[16:09] <craag> chris_99: Yes, but you often have to stick to a duty cycle limitation
[16:09] <craag> eg. 10%
[16:09] <Laurenceb> arg now you have me sketching out ideas at work again
[16:09] <eroomde> probably you couldn't get around a 25kHz channel restriction by using 100kHz and saying it's just 4 separate 25khz streams
[16:09] <eroomde> but then people fly multiple trackers on balloons on different freqs for redundancy
[16:10] <daveake> You can use multiple channels on 868, but with DC restrictions
[16:10] <Laurenceb> PaulZC: is this for operation in the dark only?
[16:10] <chris_99> what's DC restriction?
[16:10] <chris_99> oh duty
[16:12] <chris_99> i've now got a 434MHz and 868MHz transmitter module on order :) i'm curious what kind of range i can get on the ground, with 868
[16:12] <Laurenceb> PaulZC: ok so here is what I'm thinking
[16:12] <gonzo_> probabvly worth checking the available radio allocations wrt airborne use, for chile.
[16:13] <Laurenceb> pulsed laser -> freespace -> reflects of the dust -> filter (not interference type -> http://sensl.com/estore/microfr-smtpa-100xx/
[16:13] <chris_99> can you do spectroscopy on the dust?
[16:13] <Laurenceb> then for the laser
[16:13] <Laurenceb> http://www.osram-os.com/osram_os/en/products/product-catalog/laser-diodes/high-power-laser-diodes/pulsed-laser-diodes/hybrid-pulsed-laser-diodes/index.jsp
[16:14] <Laurenceb> chris_99: no, so you can detect the dust
[16:14] <Laurenceb> dust density is going to be miniscule
[16:14] <chris_99> yeah i was just curious if you can do it though, without using mass spectrometery
[16:17] <Laurenceb> ooh actually its quite narrow
[16:17] <Laurenceb> brilliant
[16:17] <PaulZC> The other thign we need to be able to do is calibrate the telescopes themselves. They're basically light buckets and the camera is an array of tube photomultipliers. We have a pico-second UV/blue LED flasher that simulates the Cherenkov flash, we just need to fly it over the telescopes on a quad copter.... But that's a whole different project!
[16:17] <Laurenceb> so you could easily add interference filter and maybe a single lens
[16:18] <Laurenceb> ok so doing the numbers
[16:19] <Laurenceb> for 1 particle albedo 10%, diameter 1µm, per cubic meter
[16:20] <Laurenceb> that system could detect it and give scattering cross section per cubic meter to within 10% in 10 seconds
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[16:20] <Laurenceb> prob worth adding multiple lasers
[16:21] <gonzo_> PaulZC, I'd suggest vthat a good first step is to check what the radio licencing situation is in chile. It may be that the situation is easier there, for power/bands. Though test launch in the uk will still be restrictive.
[16:21] <mattbrejza> everythign is better iwth more lasers
[16:22] <Laurenceb> UKP50 price isnt going to be doable
[16:22] <gonzo_> but you could still simulate the 10km range, on land, hilltop to hilltop
[16:22] <Laurenceb> UKP500 you would be stretching it
[16:22] <Laurenceb> http://uk.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Osram-Opto-Semiconductor/SPL-PL90_3/?qs=nTDll3UaDK7zyBrh35sYbg%3d%3d
[16:22] <Laurenceb> maybe an array of those with appropriate driver
[16:23] <Laurenceb> then sensl isnt cheap
[16:23] <Laurenceb> but you'll struggle to find similar stuff thats ITAR exempt in my experience
[16:23] <PaulZC> Thanks gonzo_ . The Chile telescopes will be way out in the middle of nowhere, close to the ESO VLT. I suspect the radio licencing situation could be 'flexible' - but if I started interfering with the telescopes I'd have the wrath of ESO on my neck...!
[16:24] <eroomde> they'd take 18 months to decide to write you a letter
[16:24] <eroomde> you'd be fine
[16:24] <fsphil> hah
[16:24] <mattbrejza> none of these are radio telescopes?
[16:26] <gonzo_> in the UK we are pretty much restricted to the licence exempt section of 434MHz, with 10mW tx power. So if you want to test fly here, that's what you have to work wityhin
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[16:26] <PaulZC> 70W 30ns pulses... It'll make the dust flouresce like crazy. Maybe we coudl pick it up further into the NIR?
[16:26] <Laurenceb> maybe
[16:26] <Laurenceb> it also may well be cheaper to use an LED array
[16:26] <gonzo_> LoRa people.... What's the overall througput datarate for that mode?
[16:27] <mattbrejza> you can get 2.4kbps quite easily
[16:27] <PaulZC> mattbrejza: no, but ALMA is just round the corner too!
[16:27] <gonzo_> is that post FEC mattbrejza
[16:28] <mattbrejza> yea
[16:28] <Laurenceb> high power pulsed optics might not go down well with the telescopes :P
[16:28] <mattbrejza> its fec is crap anyway, so not much point in using anything other than 4/5
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[16:30] <gonzo_> I still think that a yagi on the ground would be doable. If the flight is a straight up and down, you won't have to steer it either. Though though would be needed for the balloon antenna. As the usual upside down groundplane antenna that we use is not great if you are rx'ing from directly undneath
[16:31] <gonzo_> use a horisontal dipole in the balloon and a circular polarised yagi/helix on the ground
[16:32] <gonzo_> to avoid spin fading
[16:32] <gonzo_> (assuming right overhead)
[16:32] <mattbrejza> persumably these also want to be operable by people not trained with fldigi/sdr# and everything else
[16:32] <Laurenceb> I wonder about electrostatic dust detection
[16:32] <mattbrejza> eg two black boxes with on switches
[16:37] <Laurenceb> http://www.auburnsys.com/sites/default/files/papers/dc_vs_ac_new.pdf
[16:38] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KM4MRL-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KM4MRL-11
[16:39] <PaulZC> Thanks guys. [PaulZC - Away From Keyboard]
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[16:39] <Laurenceb> http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDcQFjADahUKEwjMzvmM3PnIAhUBxxQKHYfLANk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ejournal.org.cn%2FJweb_cje%2FEN%2Farticle%2FdownloadArticleFile.do%3FattachType%3DPDF%26id%3D3354&usg=AFQjCNGao34v1coagc5sIaMJfSBwHsFxCg&cad=rja
[16:39] <Laurenceb> this looks doable
[16:41] <Laurenceb> in fact I bet it could be integrated into a vertical dipole
[16:45] <Laurenceb> yeah its work down to ~ 10^-17C charge particles
[16:46] <Laurenceb> just use a good opamp and a high voltage charge pump, with DC block to stop the RF getting fried. Charge the dipole up to ~300v, leave it charged through a cap so its low noise, then hook up an AC coupled very low current noise opamp and look for the blips
[16:46] <Laurenceb> simples
[16:46] <Laurenceb> and easily fits within the budget
[16:47] <Laurenceb> arg hes gone
[16:47] <Laurenceb> oh well too late now
[16:51] <Laurenceb> hah this would laugh at the task http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa128.pdf
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[17:49] <Laurenceb> http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1969SSRv....9...58R/0000062.000.html
[17:49] <Laurenceb> scattering is higher than I thought
[17:50] <Laurenceb> prob doable with a watt or so of LEDs and a photodiode
[17:53] <SpeedEvil> you mean to light it when it gets sunlit?
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[18:56] <arjunnaha> Has anyone, that has done school or similar launches, got a risk assessment for the prep and launch ?
[18:56] <fsphil> potential aurora again
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[19:00] <SpeedEvil> http://aurorawatch.lancs.ac.uk/
[19:19] <fsphil> all quiet there
[19:19] <fsphil> http://services.swpc.noaa.gov/images/animations/ovation-north/latest.png
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[20:37] <LunarMobile> Thank you for all the support in the last five years
[20:38] <LunarMobile> I think I never really said that
[20:41] <LazyLeopard> fsphil: Hmmm... Chances of *seeing* any aurora here, zilch minus, if the weather forecast isn't completely wrong.
[20:43] <LazyLeopard> Rain-cloud-rain-cloud-cloud-rain-rain-cloud-cloud-fog-cloud-rain-cloud-cloud-cloud...
[20:43] <fsphil> yes a tad cloudy here too
[20:43] <LazyLeopard> ...or something like that over the next four or five days.
[20:44] <LazyLeopard> I think the cloud's more or less at ground level...
[20:44] <fsphil> shame as it looks like it should be far enough south tonight
[20:44] <fsphil> hmmm
[20:44] <fsphil> I do have a handy mountain nearby
[20:45] <LazyLeopard> Need to get up above the cloud. Got a handy HAB (and NOTAM) ready, anyone? ;)
[20:46] <fsphil> annoyingly my webcam up there's outta juice. can't tell if its cloudy
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[20:48] <LunarMobile> Today they had the Raytheon airship incident on the radio
[20:49] <LunarMobile> But in a quiz about real or fake news, and they made it a manned airship in Germany that came off course
[20:49] <LunarMobile> And of course that was a fake
[20:50] <LunarMobile> But the host then said, she totally made it up, and I don't think that, I think she heavily borrowed from the Raytheon thing
[20:56] Nick change: DL7AD1 -> DL7AD
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[22:45] <Ian_> LunarMobile, it sounds like a typical product of today's lightweight journalism; half cocked and embarrassing for those that take the time to sort out the facts before sitting in front of the camera
[22:45] <SpeedEvil> Ian_: I doubt those exist.
[22:46] <LunarMobile> Yea
[22:46] <Ian_> Suddenly realising that they are on and trying to wing it - badly :)
[22:47] <Ian_> That bad SpeedEvil? Worse than I thought then! Even a VW blimp couldn't be that far off course.
[22:47] <SpeedEvil> (I mean people that verify facts)
[22:48] <Ian_> Talking of which, having made a clean breast of things more undeclared issues emerge.
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[22:49] <Ian_> Personally I think that VW is probably in the vanguard and other motor manufacturers are yet to have their epiphany
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[22:51] <Ian_> Meanwhile, that is a military programme that is well screwed.
[22:52] <Ian_> *puts up hands for not checking facts too :) My excuse, not a journo'
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[00:00] --- Fri Nov 6 2015