highaltitude.log.20151031

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[08:08] <g0hww> gm
[08:16] <SM0ULC-Reb> morrn!
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[09:59] <PE2BZ_tablet> !flights
[09:59] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ_tablet: Current flights: 03Chetflight2 10(1272)
[10:00] <PE2BZ_tablet> !payload 1272
[10:00] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ_tablet: Payload 03CITA 10(1272) 03$$CITA - 03434.45 MHz USB 03RTTY 50/850Hz ASCII-7 none 2
[10:01] <PE2BZ_tablet> !dial 1272
[10:01] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ_tablet: Latest dials for 03CITA 10(1272): none
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[10:23] <Chetic> sorry should've reported the scrub
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[10:25] <Chetic> daveake: ublox txd: http://i.imgur.com/rVC97Rl.jpg ublox rxd: http://i.imgur.com/xPmq0W9.jpg
[10:25] <Chetic> same settings on scope
[10:26] <Chetic> I dunno maybe it's a red herring but isn't this typically what a pullup/down problem looks like?
[10:26] <Chetic> I hooked the gps up to ucenter and the gps won't respond to any of its requests
[10:34] <Chetic> oh! after doing sudo halt in raspbian the pulldown goes all the way to 0v
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[10:40] <mfa298> Chetic: have you checked that the kernel console log and agetty aren't talking to the serial port, They do in default raspbian - it's something you have to disable (and probably need to check after an upgrade))
[10:41] <Chetic> yes, mfa298, and since I'm sniffing with external hardware I can verify that there is no garbage output
[10:41] <Chetic> by garbage I mean things that shouldn't be there
[10:42] <Chetic> e.g. gettys
[10:42] <zyp> Chetic, no, it's not a pullup/down problem, that looks like two outputs connected together
[10:42] <Chetic> how do you mean?
[10:42] <Chetic> I'm not a hw buff
[10:42] <zyp> you have something that drives high at the same time as the uart is trying to drive low
[10:42] <Chetic> strange
[10:43] <zyp> well, what's the black cable?
[10:43] <mfa298> you're txd picture looks like it could be a much higher baudrate signal
[10:43] <Chetic> zyp: gnd
[10:43] <zyp> no, I mean the entire cable
[10:43] <Chetic> it's the same, mfa298
[10:43] <zyp> is that a FTDI cable or something?
[10:43] <Chetic> zyp: FTDI TTL 232R 3v3
[10:43] <Chetic> yes
[10:44] <zyp> and the bottom green board is an rpi?
[10:44] <Chetic> yes
[10:44] <zyp> see, there's your problem
[10:44] <zyp> the txd from the rpi is connected together with the txd from the ftdi cable
[10:44] <zyp> both are outputs, and they disagree
[10:44] <zyp> you can't do that
[10:45] <zyp> you'll have to disconnect the rpi to test the gps with the ftdi cable
[10:45] <Chetic> ah alright
[10:45] <Chetic> that explains that
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[10:45] <mfa298> Chetic: the large block of yellow on the txd picture looks a bit like it could be a much higher baudrate signal (i.e. potentially something at 11520 baud which is what the kernel debug and getty run at - you need to disable both)
[10:45] <Chetic> apparently it's enough to power down the rpi with sudo halt
[10:46] <zyp> hmm, I'm not familiar enough with the rpi to say
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[10:46] <zyp> if it tristates the lines, it'll be fine
[10:46] <zyp> if not, you'll have to physically disconnect it
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[10:46] <Chetic> mfa298 trust me I have disabled both, but you're right that it does look like higher baud
[10:46] <michal_f> !fllights
[10:46] <Chetic> could just be the scope's low resolution making it look like that when the voltage difference is larger
[10:46] <michal_f> !flights
[10:46] <SpacenearUS> 03michal_f: Current flights: 03Chetflight2 10(1272)
[10:47] <Chetic> I can communicate fine with the ublox frmo ucenter if I do that zyp
[10:47] <Chetic> and the gps still isn't getting a single satellite in view
[10:47] <Chetic> I'm so confused
[10:47] <zyp> well, you're indoors
[10:47] <Chetic> I've been in this lab before, with a much smaller antenna, and gotten several satellites
[10:47] <Chetic> different gps module
[10:47] <mfa298> Chetic: have you tried alterering the time base on the scope to see what that signal looks like
[10:48] <Chetic> working on it
[10:48] <mfa298> also which cable from the pit's board goes to the gps antenna
[10:48] <mfa298> and where is the gps antenna
[10:48] <Chetic> don't understand question 1
[10:49] <Chetic> the antenna is in the styrofoam box
[10:50] <mfa298> the pits board has two antenna connections, which one is the gps antenna plugged into (if you're able to take a picture that shows the antennas and where the cable routes go that might help)
[10:50] <Chetic> the right connector in the pic is where I hooked up the gps
[11:09] <Chetic> that IS the right one, right?
[11:11] <mfa298> that would be what I expectas it looks closest to the gps module (and the other is closest to the radio module)
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[11:26] <michal_f> Chetflight2 is flying today /
[11:26] <michal_f> ?
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[11:29] <Chetic> sorry michal_f no
[11:29] <Chetic> gps module won't work
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[11:32] <Chetic> can't get a single satellite in view
[11:32] <Chetic> what the hell do I do
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[11:33] <michal_f> ohh that's a pity :(
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[11:33] <michal_f> goodluck with resolving this !
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[11:36] Action: Chetic rummages for an alternate gps antenna
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[11:54] <Chetic> haha I figured it out!
[11:55] <Chetic> daveake Upu : the antenna I got with my pits kit seems to kill any reception I have on the module
[11:55] <Chetic> I get some really weak signals without the antenna in the clear blue sky, but when I put it in everything just dies
[11:56] <Chetic> maybe my batteries don't have a high enough voltage? I'll test, but fortunately I found another antenna here that seems to do the job (even though I doubt it's a gps antenna lol)
[11:57] <fsphil> you plugging it into the right socket?
[11:57] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
[11:58] <Chetic> yes, fsphil
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[11:59] <Chetic> (confirmed that about 12 times)
[12:00] <fsphil> just checking :)
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[12:16] <Chetic> http://i.imgur.com/Xhz1iu2.jpg <-anybody know what type of antenna that is?
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[12:20] <fsphil> a weird one
[12:20] <fsphil> any markings?
[12:21] <Chetic> www.panorama-antennas.com
[12:22] <Chetic> I suppose it's this one http://www.panorama-antennas.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=66_70&product_id=55
[12:22] <Chetic> got great reception in ucenter though
[12:23] <Chetic> oh it even lists 1575mhz :D
[12:30] <SM0ULC-Reb> maybe you can use is as a wing and fly... ;)
[13:03] <lz1dev> antenna disguised as a wing
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[13:04] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CITA - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CITA
[13:04] <Chetic> phew
[13:04] <Chetic> NOT A LAUNCH, in case anyone is wondering
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[13:22] <Chetic> nope, even with ultimate lithiums, the antenna kills any reception
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[13:24] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> You haven't got a short on the cable have to the GPS aerial ?
[13:26] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KE0BMV-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KE0BMV-11
[13:26] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC0UUO-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC0UUO-11
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[13:30] <SA6BSS> Chetic: probably a wifi antenna
[13:30] <SA6BSS> but then on the other hand it should have r-sma
[13:31] <SA6BSS> dont know then
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[13:35] <SA6BSS> aqhh, you found it
[13:36] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
[13:38] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[13:41] <Chetic> Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: "have to the gps aerial"? sorry I don't understand
[13:47] <SA6BSS> Chetic: launch tomorrow?
[13:48] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03K0SCC-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K0SCC-11
[13:49] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AE0SS-12 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AE0SS-12
[13:51] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC0D-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC0D-11
[13:54] <Chetic> SA6BSS: need to secure everything and perform a final test before I can answer that :)
[13:59] <Chetic> hellish winds tomorrow..
[14:00] <SpeedEvil> Watch out for those brimstone flakes.
[14:02] <Chetic> what's a brimstone flake?
[14:02] <SpeedEvil> 'hellish'
[14:04] <SA6BSS> Chetic: oki
[14:05] <Chetic> sorry SpeedEvil, I'm not a native speaker
[14:05] <Chetic> I don't follow :)
[14:06] <SpeedEvil> http://www.gotquestions.org/fire-and-brimstone.html
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[14:26] <daveake> Chetic send Upu or me your order number and he'll get a replacement GPS antenna sent out Monday
[14:26] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> Lunar_Lander: hello
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[16:04] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03W9MOK-2 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=W9MOK-2
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[17:55] <Papdada> I was wondering why 433MHz LoRa is used for tracking while 868MHz could in theory use up to 500mW (with some limitations)
[17:59] <daveake> Because of the limitations
[17:59] <Papdada> What do you mean exactly?
[18:00] <daveake> duty cycle
[18:00] <Papdada> AFAIK the only limitation is 10% duty cycle limit, but I don't see why that is a problem?
[18:00] <Papdada> oh maybe the max tx time...
[18:01] <daveake> If say you have 10x the power budget, but 10% max DC, you're back where you started
[18:01] <craag> so for most 868 modules, you can get 100mW out of them
[18:01] <craag> ... what dave said ^^
[18:01] <mattbrejza> also 6dB more path loss
[18:01] <craag> + extra loss
[18:01] <craag> ... what matt said ^^
[18:02] <daveake> what *-me said
[18:02] <mattbrejza> so actually it works out the same, but you need more battery capacity
[18:03] <gonzo_> I don't like path loss. It's just a reduction in capture area with wavelength.
[18:04] <gonzo_> but if you put the same amount of metal in the air, you vget roughly the same capture area
[18:04] <Lunar_Lander> hi craag
[18:05] <gonzo_> though at higher frews you can get more gain for the same size antenna, so you may win due to lower thermal noise
[18:05] <chris_99> craag, i thought theres one that does 500mW
[18:06] <chris_99> TX3H
[18:08] <craag> chris_99: so there is..
[18:08] <craag> but not lora
[18:08] <chris_99> mmm
[18:08] <Papdada> Afaik for Lora around 20dBm is the max
[18:08] <Papdada> but you can add some gain block easily.
[18:10] <daveake> Which is another plus for 434 ... if you're doing an uplink then you can tx from the ground with more power
[18:10] <daveake> not that we seem to need more power for uplinks :)
[18:14] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KJ4TDM-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KJ4TDM-1
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[18:31] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SP9UOB - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP9UOB
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[18:40] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03N4XWC-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N4XWC-1
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[18:59] <gonzo_> also antennas are more avail for 434meg and many of us have thwm already
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[19:01] <fab4space2> for Lora there are 27dbm modules available
[19:01] <fab4space2> I will order two of them next week:
[19:01] <fab4space2> there are available for 868Mhz
[19:04] <fab4space2> http://link-labs.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/symphony-link-extended-range-lora-module
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[19:04] <fab4space2> on the page they list only the 915Mhz version, but the 868 Mhz 27dbm module is available too
[19:05] <fab4space2> next week I will order two of these modules and I plan to use them as a backup tracker in my next hab launch
[19:05] <fab4space2> 32$ per module
[19:06] <fab4space2> Papdada,
[19:06] <fab4space2> but it is 225mw max transmit power , not 500m>
[19:06] <fab4space2> but it is 225mw max transmit power , not 500mW
[19:07] <Papdada> Nice
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[19:38] <mfa298> fab4space2: (and Papdada) depending on where you are the 915MHz one might be what you want (434/868 are ISM in Europe but not everywhere else - In the US I think the lowest ISM band is 915MHz
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[19:48] <chris_99> what's the advantage of lora over rtty out of interest
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[19:50] <mfa298> it manages better datarates with similar power, I think we've had balloons doing >1000baud at 10mW. The disadvantages are it uses a wider channel (which may give more limitations) and it's a closed standard
[19:51] <bertrik> what I know: it uses a (spread spectrum) modulation with higher link margin and it uses error detection/correction
[19:51] <Papdada> The LoRa physical layer is M-FSK together with a chirp spread spectrum
[19:52] <Papdada> the error correction is hamming based
[19:52] <chris_99> do you know what the value of M is
[19:52] <chris_99> or does that vary
[19:53] <Papdada> I suppose the reason for the chirp is twofold, one to easily overcome possible frequency offset when correlating and the second is that chirps with different rates are somewhat orthogonal so many data rates can be used at the same time (this is what the coordinator does)
[19:53] <Papdada> it varries
[19:54] <Papdada> basically the modem transmits sweeps where the starting point is varies depending on the symbol to transmit
[19:54] <Papdada> the rate of the sweep is given by the SF (and BW)
[19:55] <Papdada> this sweeping has no effect on sensitivity (in AWGN channels), so you can calculate link marging like it was M-FSK
[19:55] <chris_99> hmm, so are there software based decoders for lora atm?
[19:55] <chris_99> for use with SDRs i mean
[19:56] <mfa298> I think most people are using a lora module and that's what you're suppoesed to do as it's a closed standard.
[19:56] <Papdada> There is one
[19:56] <Papdada> but it is not complete, but it can decode certain settings
[19:56] <mfa298> but I think there's a software decoder around
[19:56] <Papdada> https://github.com/hexameron/rtl-sdrangelove/tree/master/plugins/channel/lora
[19:57] <bertrik> Papdada: interesting, I've only looked at very low rate lora signals and in that case they looked like mfsk
[19:57] <Papdada> That could be true, above a certain symbol duration a 'very low data rate' mode is activated
[19:57] <Papdada> possible this disables the chirping (I have seen this on a spectrum analyzer, but not investigated in detail)
[19:57] <chris_99> Are there any M-FSK radio modules that you could use instead then, on HAB frequencies?
[19:58] <kc2pit> Huh. Wouldn't disabling the chirping kill the frequency error tolerance?
[19:58] <mfa298> chris_99: there are lora modules for 434 MHz which is what's been used a fair bit in the UK
[19:58] <Papdada> Depends, they can get the error some other way potentially
[19:58] <chris_99> yeah i mean, without lora
[19:58] <chris_99> just m-fsk
[19:59] <Papdada> You can use most radio modules for this
[19:59] <mfa298> a few people have tried contessia, dominoEX etc with various modules
[19:59] <bertrik> chris_99: people have done things like dominoex, but just using the "standard" rtty modules
[19:59] <Papdada> Just let them transmit a continuous 11111111 bitstream, and adjust the deviation on the fly
[19:59] <chris_99> oh interesting, would that even work with the radiometrix ones/
[19:59] <Papdada> I don't know, which module do you mean? I can take a look
[19:59] <chris_99> sec
[20:00] <chris_99> TX3H
[20:00] <chris_99> is the one i'm looking at
[20:00] <mfa298> you can certainly do DominoEX with the ntx2b, but it get's interesting - you need to drive it with something that does fairly accurate voltage levels (arduino pwm may not have enough resolution to do it well)
[20:00] <Papdada> TI makes a modem chip where you can do manual modulation of the TX, so there you can make any type of FSK you want
[20:00] <Papdada> CC1125
[20:01] <chris_99> ah i've seen that chip i think
[20:01] <bertrik> IIRC, leo did some hacks with the crystal frequency to get the data rate to match the dominoex specification
[20:01] <mfa298> I think Leo was using one of the SI chips to do various mfsk modes
[20:02] <chris_99> ah interesting, so doing that, you're effectively shifting the carrier frequency input right?
[20:02] <Papdada> Apparently you can input an analog signal into the TX3H module, that would work, but not very well as the level would need to be very exact
[20:02] <chris_99> gotcha
[20:03] <mfa298> you also want to check the frequency stability of the module, on 434MHz the NTX2 wasn't suitable due to it's drift, but the NTX2B does work as it's got a good txco
[20:04] <Papdada> We used this device once
[20:04] <Papdada> http://www.analog.com/en/products/rf-microwave/iq-modulators-demodulators/iq-demodulators-w-integrated-lo/adrf6720-27.html
[20:04] <Papdada> You can input your own I/Q signal, so any modulation can be made
[20:05] <eroomde> note a lot of radiometrix analog inputs have LPFs
[20:06] <eroomde> possibly annoyingly low for any freq hopping ss plans
[20:06] <mfa298> you'd probably do better with 434MHz as you'll find more people with good receivers and good antennas. The TX3H looks to be 868 (whilst you may have more power you may also find some strict duty cycle limits)
[20:06] <Papdada> Probably, it has to be low
[20:06] <Papdada> otherwise the spectrum would be really ugly if you input a digital signal with sharp edges
[20:07] <eroomde> exactly so
[20:07] <eroomde> basically audio stuff only
[20:09] <Papdada> audio tones on 433MHz is illegal here
[20:09] <Laurenceb_> I've done MFSK-64 with a radiometrix
[20:09] <Laurenceb_> note that doesnt use 64 tones
[20:09] <eroomde> sure but that's like 10baud or something
[20:10] <Laurenceb_> nope its quite fast
[20:10] <eroomde> how fast?
[20:10] <Laurenceb_> close to 300 baud rtty
[20:10] <eroomde> you mean 300 baud?
[20:10] <eroomde> or close to the data rate of 300baud 2fsk?
[20:10] <chris_99> Laurenceb_, what do you mean that doesn't use 64 tones? i thought 64-FSK means 64 tones?
[20:10] <Laurenceb_> close to the data rate
[20:11] <eroomde> we're talking about symbol rate here and spread spectrum
[20:11] <eroomde> so that's not really relevent
[20:11] <Laurenceb_> chris_99: dont expect HAM terminology to make sense
[20:11] <chris_99> what does 64 mean?
[20:11] <Laurenceb_> 64 times normal speed
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> or something
[20:12] <eroomde> chris_99: this is a namespace clash
[20:12] <eroomde> MFSK64 is like 'nintendo 64' - a brand name
[20:12] <chris_99> ohhhhhh
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> where normal speed is 4
[20:12] <eroomde> it doesn't mean 64FSK
[20:12] <chris_99> so it's not like 64-FSK
[20:12] <chris_99> gotcha
[20:12] <eroomde> yeah
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> so they started with 4-MFSK, which was 4 tones
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> then made it faster
[20:13] <Laurenceb_> but yeah, that was really taking an NTX2 to the limit
[20:14] <eroomde> takin it to the ntx level, yo
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> heh
[20:14] <Papdada> I am in the UAV field
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> it was struggling to hit the tones accurately enough quickly enough
[20:14] <Papdada> we are lucky to have nice link budgets
[20:16] <eroomde> yes
[20:16] <eroomde> 500km makes thrings trickie
[20:16] <Papdada> The LoRa is actually not very nice for its normal deployment as an IoT link.
[20:17] <Papdada> Do to it being rather wideband and exploiting coding gain for blocker resistance it performs poor in a congested environment
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> exactly
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> TI are correct when they badmouth it
[20:17] <Papdada> with the highest SF the blocking resistance is only ~19dB
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> I dont see whats wrong with silabs
[20:18] <Laurenceb_> I made a silabs 200baud link with 156dB link budget
[20:18] <Papdada> 4FSK?
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[20:18] <Laurenceb_> no, 2FSK
[20:18] <Papdada> oh ok
[20:18] <Laurenceb_> with 200Hz sep and 350hz bandpass on Tx and Rx
[20:19] <Papdada> There is a competitor to Lora, Sigfox
[20:19] <Laurenceb_> yeah, do they have any proper documentation yet?
[20:19] <Papdada> nope
[20:19] <Papdada> sigfox is ultra narrowband BPSK, which interferes very much with Lora
[20:19] <Papdada> and the lora is a sweep jammer filling all the sigfox channels :)
[20:20] <Laurenceb_> ah makes sense
[20:20] <Laurenceb_> BPSK with a ton of FEC is the "proper" way to do this
[20:20] <Papdada> so if both are deployed in one area you get really sucks performace
[20:20] <Laurenceb_> hehe
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[20:23] <Papdada> The LoraWAN mac protocol also sucks
[20:24] <Papdada> Also it would be bad if a large part of IoT is hinging purely on a proprietary radio
[20:25] <chris_99> mmm
[20:25] <eroomde> i'm hoping lora is just a kick up the bum here
[20:25] <Papdada> There is one thing they are extremely good at
[20:25] <Papdada> marketing
[20:25] <eroomde> to show what you can do if you decide to go after the theoretical link budget we have
[20:25] <eroomde> rather than just 50 baud rtty
[20:27] <bertrik> Papdada: what's wrong with the mac protocol?
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[20:27] <Papdada> Several things. I am not the expert at that but someone else analyzed this in detail using simulations. The main thing is that it is basically aloha
[20:28] <Papdada> Nodes just wake up and start sending, maybe killing someone elses transmission
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[20:28] <Papdada> Very many things are decided by the node, instead of the network
[20:28] <Laurenceb_> wow sigfox is interesting
[20:28] <Laurenceb_> ther are setting up their own base stations
[20:28] <Laurenceb_> thats a novel business plan
[20:28] <Papdada> For example, you cannot make a lorawan system with less than 3 RF channels
[20:28] <chris_99> Papdada, do you know much about CC1125, on here http://www.ti.com/product/cc1125 it mentions up to 27dBm output, but in the datasheet, it sort of indicates the max power is a lot lower
[20:28] <Papdada> It is certainly not 27dBm
[20:29] <Papdada> but TI makes some amplifier chip that gives something around that power
[20:29] <chris_99> ah because it does say 'Support for Seamless Integration With the CC1190 Device for Increased Range Giving up to 3-dB Improvement in Sensitivity and up to +27-dBm Output Power'
[20:29] <chris_99> maybe that is with an amplifier then
[20:29] <Papdada> Yes, that is the chip
[20:29] <Papdada> CC1190=PA+LNA
[20:30] <chris_99> ah cheers!
[20:30] <Papdada> For a 'carrier class' network like LoRa you would want everything to be under network control, not decided by the nodes
[20:30] <bertrik> "up to" is marketing speak for "guaranteed to be lower than" :)
[20:30] <chris_99> i noticed some modules on aliexpres for the cc1125, might get some now
[20:32] <Papdada> Weightless-N seems to have the best MAC system for long range IoT
[20:33] <Papdada> There is a company 'Link-Labs' making an alternative, better, lora wan mac
[20:35] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BGE_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BGE_chase
[20:35] <Laurenceb_> http://blog.up.co/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/France-coverage.jpg
[20:35] <Laurenceb_> crazy
[20:36] <fab4space2> yes Papdada this is the company selling the 27dbm 868mhz modules
[20:37] <chris_99> Papdada, seen this http://www.ti.com/tool/cc1101cc1190emk868 - that looks pretty nifty, it comes with the CC1190+CC1101
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[20:42] <Papdada> There is also this: RF4463F30
[20:42] <Papdada> 30dBm at 868MHz, but can be turned down to <27dBm (and has to be, it doesnt meet etsi limits at 500mW)
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[20:43] <chris_99> ooh
[20:43] <chris_99> that sounds really interesting
[20:44] <chris_99> they're rather cheap too
[20:44] <Papdada> yeah, around 10$ IIRC
[20:44] <chris_99> yeah
[20:44] <Papdada> They were used in some university project, seemed to perform perfectly
[20:44] <chris_99> how would you go about lowering the power output from 1W though
[20:44] <Papdada> you can program the chip output power
[20:44] <chris_99> ah neat
[20:45] <Papdada> you can also reduce the supply voltage a bit to reduce heat output if desired
[20:45] <chris_99> well i'm definitely gonna order some of then now, cheers!
[20:45] <Papdada> It was totally overkill for the project they were doing though
[20:45] <chris_99> on land, could you use 1W, or is that still not allowed
[20:45] <Papdada> The link distance was 20m worst case
[20:45] <chris_99> oh heh
[20:46] <Papdada> No, only 27dBm
[20:46] <Papdada> EIRP (IIRC)
[20:46] <Papdada> so if your antenna is inefficient you could legally use a 1W TX
[20:47] <chris_99> ah gotcha, ta
[20:49] <Papdada> There is some chinese company making a rs232 link module with 25W Pout :P
[20:49] <Papdada> It uses a cellular base station PA module
[20:49] <chris_99> haha awesome
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[20:50] <chris_99> know what it's called?
[20:50] <Papdada> Not by heart
[20:50] <Papdada> The modules are plenty though
[20:50] <Papdada> For example: RA07M4047M
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[20:51] <Papdada> basically you insert your signal with 100mW or so and you get xx W output power
[20:52] <chris_99> neat, 7W output from that apparently
[20:52] <bertrik> I know two people who got their 2000 mW wifi equipment seized by customs :)
[20:52] <chris_99> haha oh dear
[20:52] <Papdada> Haha, that can happen yes
[20:52] <chris_99> my mikrotik wifi router can do 1W apparently
[20:52] <Papdada> Why the hell would you want 2W wifi
[20:53] <Papdada> it just pollutes the spectrum in your neighbourhood
[20:53] <chris_99> mmm
[20:53] <bertrik> to out-power your neighbours I guess :)
[20:53] <chris_99> might be ok for line of sight
[20:53] <chris_99> wifi
[20:53] <chris_99> with a cantenna
[20:53] <Papdada> Some FPV drone guys go really over the top
[20:53] <Papdada> several watt analog video transmitters
[20:53] <Papdada> everyones wifi gone
[20:53] <chris_99> oh dear
[20:54] <Papdada> with digital equipment they would get the same performance at legal power levels
[20:54] <Papdada> Also on 5GHz many use totally illegal frequencies
[20:55] <Papdada> Chinese bandplan is different, but the hardware exported to everywhere
[20:55] <Papdada> so they end up TX'ing in the weather radar band...
[20:55] <Papdada> from an airborne system ...
[20:55] <SpeedEvil> Oh dear
[20:55] <SpeedEvil> 1/r^4 sucks anyway
[20:55] <Papdada> yeah
[20:58] <Papdada> Fortunately we have a licensed band for testing
[20:59] <SpeedEvil> If only there was more spectrum...
[20:59] <Papdada> Yes, or if it was more efficiently used
[21:00] <Papdada> Most of the spectrum is idle almost all the time
[21:00] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[21:00] <Papdada> Only ISM and cellular is always in use
[21:00] <SpeedEvil> Problem is one mans 'idle' is another mans 'recieving from a distant transmitter that you can't hear.
[21:01] <Papdada> True
[21:01] <SpeedEvil> Cellular only works so heavily used because it's exquisitely managed in terms of frequency and stations
[21:02] <Papdada> Yes, this spectrum is used very efficiently
[21:02] <SpeedEvil> In principle, beamforming antennas on mobiles should help even more in the near future
[21:02] <Papdada> It is already there more or less
[21:02] <Papdada> LTE terminals have more than 1 antenna for MIMO
[21:03] <Papdada> Massive MIMO in the base station would also make a very big capacity increase
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[21:03] <SpeedEvil> They already do MIMO to a degree
[21:03] <SpeedEvil> segmented antennas are usual
[21:04] <Papdada> I have seen a massive mimo demo with 64 antennas
[21:05] <Papdada> quite nice
[21:06] <SpeedEvil> massive arrays of fast ADCs and heaps and heaps of computation
[21:06] <Papdada> yes
[21:06] <fab4space2> I'm going to try https://github.com/hexameron/rtl-sdrangelove.git lora sdr demod with my fun cube dongle pro+
[21:07] <Papdada> It should work
[21:07] <Papdada> but not all possible settings are implemented
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[21:08] <fab4space2> i'm using 15 and 20khz bandwith for my tracker , it seems to be supported by the plugin
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[21:08] <fab4space2> I'm not sure about the spreading factor range which are supported
[21:08] <Papdada> yes, but also the spreading factor range is limited
[21:08] <Papdada> but I don't remember
[21:09] <fab4space2> I'm using SF11 for the tracker and SF6 for the SSDV
[21:09] <Papdada> I am reverse engineering this: http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/Devices.aspx?product=RN2483
[21:10] <Papdada> Inside is a PIC18LF cpu and a SX1276 LoRa radio
[21:10] <Papdada> all this for 11$
[21:10] <Papdada> the programming pins are brought out (TEST1 and TEST2)
[21:10] <Papdada> the default firmware is not so useful, it is for joining a lorawan network
[21:10] <fab4space2> can you upload your own firmware Papdada ?
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[21:10] <Papdada> Yes, you should be able to
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[21:11] <Papdada> I haven't tried yet, but the needed pins are there
[21:11] <Papdada> so you can just use the pickit to program it
[21:11] <Papdada> or some ebay clone for 10$
[21:11] <fab4space2> so what are you trying to reverse engineer?
[21:11] <Papdada> This, on tuesday I will try to flash it
[21:12] <Papdada> but I don't see why it wouldn't work
[21:12] <mikestir> just been reading the log - have any of you guys had a play with sigfox yet?
[21:12] <Papdada> I was looking where the programming pins go
[21:12] <fab4space2> one of my friend has a sigfox module on top of the rpi in south of france
[21:13] <fab4space2> and he has got good results
[21:13] <mikestir> france is well covered it seems
[21:13] <fab4space2> but you are limited to 180 msg per day
[21:13] <fab4space2> slow bitrate
[21:13] <fab4space2> and you can't have your own receiving station
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[21:13] <fab4space2> on the other hand I find it to be a good backup tracker
[21:14] <fab4space2> after the payload has landed
[21:14] <mikestir> this is true, but I'm told in the uk that arqiva will put one in for you if you can promise the volumes
[21:14] <mikestir> and they're relatively cheap as well
[21:14] <mikestir> I don't think it would be much use for a hab, but probably useful for a float where the 10-15 minute interval wouldn't be so bad
[21:15] <fab4space2> also I'm not sure if airborne is allowed for this frequency / protocol
[21:15] <fab4space2> in france it is forbidden excepted 144.650Mhz for hab
[21:15] <mikestir> well it's just in the 868 MHz ism band in etsi region
[21:15] <mikestir> so should be fine
[21:16] <Papdada> how much does the modem cost?
[21:16] <mikestir> not sure, but I guess cheap
[21:16] <fab4space2> there are dual lora/sigfox modems too:
[21:16] <mikestir> atmel has some chips
[21:16] <mikestir> I had a distie in the other day who actually brought a board to show off. didn't work though - no coverage in the office
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[21:17] <fab4space2> http://www.nemeus.fr/en/nemeus-mm002-2/
[21:17] <mikestir> he promised it worked in their office :)
[21:17] <fab4space2> Modulation : LoRa™ / SIGFOX™/ FSK
[21:17] <mikestir> http://www.atmel.com/images/atmel-9372-smart-rf-ata8520_datasheet.pdf
[21:17] <fab4space2> MM002-LS-EU
[21:18] <mikestir> £1.77 in 1500 off for that atmel one
[21:18] <mikestir> that's comparable with the silabs iirc
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[21:21] <mikestir> <fab4space2> and you can't have your own receiving station <- I don't suppose there's anything stopping you - it's in a license exempt band
[21:22] <Papdada> Probably, hopefully, it will be encrypted
[21:23] <mikestir> I was thinking more like just using the sigfox transmitter hardware and doing your own thing with them
[21:23] <fab4space2> ok you mean using your own protocol etc
[21:23] <mikestir> because I think they're the only low cost radios that support BPSK
[21:24] <fab4space2> I understand Miek ok
[21:24] <fab4space2> I understand mikestir ok, that can be interesting yes!
[21:24] <mikestir> just thinking out loud - that atmel part has a built in AVR
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[21:24] <Papdada> Ah yes, that may be interesting
[21:25] <fab4space2> what about the receiver hardwarre/software?
[21:25] <bertrik> if it's only BPSK, then a software decoder could be a easier than a lora software decoder
[21:25] <mikestir> yeah. any old sdr for the rx
[21:25] <Papdada> You can also buy normal BPSK radio chip
[21:26] <Papdada> https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/comms/wireless-rf/MAX2900.html
[21:26] <Papdada> for example
[21:26] <Papdada> It may be easier I think
[21:26] <Lunar_Lander> mikestir, also receiving doesn't need any license
[21:26] <Lunar_Lander> basically
[21:26] <mikestir> interesting. maxim though
[21:27] <Lunar_Lander> as far as I know
[21:27] <mikestir> Lunar_Lander: that's not strictly true
[21:27] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok
[21:27] <mikestir> e.g. I believe it is illegal under the wireless telegraphy act to listen to a pirate radio station
[21:27] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:27] <Papdada> Depends very much on the country
[21:27] <mikestir> and it was illegal to listen to the police on a scanner
[21:28] <mikestir> before they went digital
[21:28] <Papdada> here it is illegal to listen if the transmission if not intended for you
[21:28] <Papdada> unless, it is amateur radio, PMR446, broadcast and some other excempt systems that you may always receive
[21:28] <mikestir> Papdada: I think that's the gist of it. basically broadcast, ham, CB and ISM bands at a push
[21:28] <mikestir> snap
[21:29] <mikestir> they also seem to turn a blind eye on rxing the air and marine bands
[21:29] <bertrik> I think in the netherlands we can receive anything, but police radar detectors are illegal
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[21:29] <Papdada> are they illegal to posses or just to 'transport in a vehicule'
[21:30] <Papdada> banning possesion is quite complex in EU (is possible, via a loophole, but most countries just ban transport which is trivial)
[21:31] <mikestir> I think in the uk they'd try to do you for perverting the course of justice, because as they don't actually demodulate anything they're not a receiver as such
[21:31] <mikestir> just a field-strength meter
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[21:34] <Papdada> http://www.disk91.com/2015/news/technologies/one-day-at-sigfox/
[21:34] <Papdada> It looks like sigfox is making the BPSK using FSK modems
[21:35] <Papdada> I guess they set the bitrate really high, and the deviation so that a single 1 bit flips the phase
[21:35] Action: Laurenceb_ wonders if you could put sigfox on a cubesat
[21:36] <mikestir> don't see why not
[21:36] <fab4space2> doppler shift?
[21:36] <Papdada> Sigfox has problems if you use it in a car apparently
[21:37] <Papdada> due to doppler as fab4space2 says
[21:37] <Laurenceb_> interesting
[21:37] <Papdada> so I guess a sat is out
[21:37] <mikestir> oh right. that's pretty bad as I would have thought asset tracking is a key use case
[21:37] <Laurenceb_> car doppler would be lower than a xtal offset
[21:37] <Laurenceb_> how odd
[21:37] <Papdada> Yeah, thats true
[21:37] <mikestir> yeah but it's non-constant
[21:37] <Laurenceb_> Telecom Design modules are based on a EFM32 / Cortex M3 micro-controler with 128KB flash, 16KB RAM, ultra low power including a Silicon Labs transceiver
[21:37] <Papdada> Probably the channel changes enough when you move that the phase reference is lost
[21:37] <Laurenceb_> heh thats my hab hardware
[21:38] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[21:38] <mikestir> I did some tests in a car with dominoex and the doppler was even killing that
[21:38] <Papdada> Laurenceb_: yeah, it looks like they make the BPSK with normal FSK radios
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[21:38] <mikestir> Laurenceb_: are you using the EZR32?
[21:38] <Laurenceb_> yeah Leo got that working
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> no - stm32, but very similar
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> "This one is able to receive at -142dBm"
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> wonder how they push that out of silabs
[21:40] <Papdada> I guess the base station is some better receiver
[21:40] <Laurenceb_> "The base-station is listening a 200KHz spectrum and will get the message on these frequency"
[21:40] <Laurenceb_> aha
[21:40] <Papdada> probably SDR
[21:40] <Laurenceb_> prob SDR yeah
[21:40] <Laurenceb_> then they pull out the message and ping back at same frequency
[21:40] <Papdada> using GFSK
[21:41] <Papdada> the downlink is GFSK
[21:41] <fab4space2> so what is the main advantage of sigfox over low bitrate FSK like used with RTTY?
[21:42] <Laurenceb_> so doppler will kill that
[21:42] <Laurenceb_> as the downlink will not be aligned
[21:42] <mikestir> you don't actually need the downlink though
[21:42] <Laurenceb_> true
[21:42] <Laurenceb_> so cubesat or hab could do a one way link
[21:42] <Papdada> The downlink is more wideband also
[21:42] <Papdada> so doppler is less of a problem I think
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[21:42] <Laurenceb_> they prob have a license for more power at the base station
[21:43] <mikestir> they won't
[21:43] <Papdada> It is in the 27dBm part of the 868MHz band
[21:43] <mikestir> it's still an ISM band
[21:43] <Laurenceb_> ok
[21:43] <Laurenceb_> 27dBm is >14dBm
[21:43] <Papdada> In some countries you can get extended licenses in ISM, but they shouldn't need that
[21:43] <fab4space2> but < 10% duty cycle
[21:43] <mikestir> Papdada: duty cycle restriction in that sub-band though. They must get around that by using listen-before-talk
[21:44] <Papdada> YOu only get 4 downlink messages per day
[21:44] <Papdada> So it should be fine I guess
[21:44] <Papdada> listen before talk doesn't help, then you also need AFA to get no duty cycle limit
[21:44] <Papdada> and then you cannot use the 500mW on all channels
[21:45] <mikestir> maybe they just assume they can stay in the 10% then, but that doesn't sound very scalable
[21:45] <mikestir> since the base station needs to transmit up to 4 downlink messages a day, but to every device in its footprint
[21:46] <Laurenceb_> The modulation for down-link is GFSK at 500bps on a 600Hz band
[21:47] <Papdada> ah 500bps, ok
[21:48] <Papdada> I guess if they hit the limitation of 10% they will sectorize the base stations
[21:48] <Papdada> as the 10% is per radio
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> btw for those who wonder about my next flight
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> this is the future :)
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> http://i.imgur.com/oDnaQUA.jpg
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[21:57] <Lunar_Lander> that's the aspirated sensor tube
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[22:01] <Papdada> nice
[22:03] <Lunar_Lander> thanks :)
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[22:50] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CALLSIGN123_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CALLSIGN123_chase
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[23:30] <chris_99> does anyone have any idea what the maximum, actual FSK lora uses is, i've been skimming their spec, to no avail
[23:30] <mattbrejza> its not fsk
[23:30] <chris_99> oh
[23:36] <chris_99> ah i'm just reading, sounds interesting, so it uses FM that increases/decreases, to convey information
[23:37] <mattbrejza> yea, not sure on the exact details
[23:38] <mattbrejza> there is a patent to read if you really wanted...
[23:38] <chris_99> i found a nice little image which shows how the frequency changes, but i'm curious roughly how it'd compare to FSK then
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[23:40] <mattbrejza> its no better in theory over a white noise channel (iirc)
[23:40] <mattbrejza> but it has the advantage that it doesnt need perfect tx/rx sync
[23:40] <mattbrejza> (carrier freq)
[23:41] <mattbrejza> as a result NB FSK modems have much wider than needed filters to compensate, which lets in more noise
[23:41] <chris_99> aha
[23:42] <mattbrejza> it is also better with interferers i think, but its not nearly as good as 'proper' spread spectrum stuff in that regard
[23:45] <chris_99> ah so the proper name for the modulation is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirp_spread_spectrum i guess
[23:45] <mattbrejza> yea
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[23:48] <chris_99> so i wonder if there are any CSS supporting chips, that don't use lora, meaning you could attach your own open protocol to it
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[00:00] --- Sun Nov 1 2015