highaltitude.log.20151025

[00:04] <michal_f> !flights
[00:04] <SpacenearUS> 03michal_f: Current flights: 03ARY1 10(db95), 03TENPARTS1 10(6d92)
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[01:23] <BeaverOne> Laurenceb_: http://pastebin.com/yvnU6pQE
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[06:48] <PE2BZ> Good Morning...
[06:48] <PE2BZ> !flights
[06:48] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ: Current flights: 03ARY1 10(db95), 03TENPARTS1 10(6d92)
[06:49] <PE2BZ> !payload 6d92
[06:49] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ: Payload 03TENPARTS1 10(6d92) 03$$TENPARTS1 - 03Primary - 03434.4 MHz USB 03RTTY 100/366Hz ASCII-7 none 2
[06:50] <PE2BZ> Can anyone help me which mode to set for the LoRa gateway for $$TENPARTS1 ? UKHAS says: LoRa 1562bps
[06:50] <PE2BZ> Explicit Mode on, Bandwidth 62.5Khz, Spreading Factor 8, Coding Rate 4:5, Low Data rate Optimisation Off.
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[07:31] <SM0ULC_> morrn
[07:33] <number10> morning
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[07:59] <PE2BZ> Good Morning. Is summertime on in UK ?
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[08:46] <Geoff-G8DHE-m> Pe2bz, its not a specific mode, just set the parameters themselves
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[08:58] <PE2BZ> Geoff-G8DHE-m thanks. I did choose mode_1=1 for the Explicit and Bandwidth and low data rate optimization and added Coding_1=5 and on my Pi it looks all ok now.
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[09:37] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03ARY1 after 0310 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ARY1
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[10:15] <DL1SGP> Good Morning :)
[10:16] Nick change: Wiktor -> Wiktor|Praha
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[10:19] <PE2BZ> Gutemorgen Felix
[10:19] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03TENPARTS1 after 0316 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=TENPARTS1
[10:19] <DL1SGP> Heel goeden morgen Ben :)
[10:20] <PE2BZ> Und ? Was hast du mit diese extra Stunde gemacht ?
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[10:24] <DL1SGP> Ich hab geschlafen Ben PE2BZ , schau dir mal meinen track mit ssid -5 von gestern an :D
[10:25] <BensRPi> Good morning DL1SGP
[10:25] <DL1SGP> Hi BensRPi :D
[10:25] <craag> Morning all
[10:25] <DL1SGP> hi craag :)
[10:25] <craag> Gonna try patching dave's lora gateway for stuart's awkward packets
[10:26] <fsphil> ackward?
[10:26] <PE2BZ> Morning Craag
[10:26] <DL1SGP> good luck craag :)
[10:26] <craag> L*10$$$$TENPARTS1,4579,05:44:59,51.47821,-3.18258,40,0,0,5,401,3669,8,Y,9,1*63F0
[10:26] <craag> iirc dave's code checks for starting '$'
[10:27] <michal_f> ARY1 is up
[10:27] <michal_f> terrible wind
[10:27] <craag> :D
[10:27] <craag> good luck michal_f
[10:27] <fsphil> ah
[10:27] <PE2BZ> !payload ary1
[10:27] <SpacenearUS> 03PE2BZ: Payload 03ARY1 10(db95) 03$$ARY1 - 03ARY1 - 03434.65 MHz USB 03RTTY 300/600Hz ASCII-8 none 2
[10:28] <PE2BZ> michal_f from where is ARY1 launched ?
[10:28] <fsphil> no ssdv?
[10:28] <DL1SGP> that's in Poland Ben :)
[10:29] <PE2BZ> That´s another challenge...
[10:29] <DL1SGP> heh :)
[10:30] <PE2BZ> who is BensRPi ? I was first guessing my Raspberry Pi starts self connecting to IRC :-)
[10:33] <PE2BZ> DL1SGP but Poland could be in your reception range Felix !
[10:34] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[10:34] <BensRPi> Anyone receiving tenparts?
[10:34] <Geoff-G8DHE> craag, hopefully just changing the "$" to an "L" might suffuce ?
[10:34] <craag> Geoff-G8DHE: I believe so, need to then strip the start of the sentence
[10:35] <craag> sorry just juggling a few things here, have got a vim session open though ;)
[10:36] <PE2BZ> BensRPi it´s at 26 meters so only GW7HPW is on the map yet.
[10:36] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
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[10:39] <BensRPi> PE2BZ yes a newbie to this, just seeing how things work in HAB. Will connect my RPi to an antenna, just thinking about which radio or SDR to gt
[10:41] <DL1SGP> PE2BZ: I guess winds will take the ARY1 out of my range before it reaches an altitude that permits rx
[10:42] <PE2BZ> DL1SGP than turn of all the windmills in Germany, you know, those big fans... Perhaps it will stop the wind ;-)
[10:42] <DL1SGP> haha PE2BZ
[10:43] <PE2BZ> BensRPi I started a new IRC window for a SDR related chat.
[10:44] <michal_f> ssdv should be above some altitude
[10:44] <fsphil> ah
[10:44] <fsphil> phew. was checking there if I'd broken the live page :)
[10:44] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ary1_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ary1_chase
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[10:45] <michal_f> of course smth. might go wrong
[10:46] <pb0ahx> !flights
[10:46] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: Current flights: 03ARY1 10(db95), 03TENPARTS1 10(6d92)
[10:46] <pb0ahx> !dial 6d92
[10:46] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: Latest dials for 03TENPARTS1 10(6d92): none
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[10:50] <PE2BZ> TENPARTS is up. at 330 meter at this moment.
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[10:54] <michal_f> something wrong with cam Im affraid
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[11:01] <craag> Ok I have a possible patched lora gw at: https://github.com/philcrump/lora-gateway
[11:01] <craag> otherwise identical to dave's lastest master
[11:01] <craag> not tested yet ;)
[11:03] <PE2BZ> craag thanks. Do I need to update before I can track TENPARTS1 ?
[11:05] <craag> Yes you will, as he uses a slightly different packet format
[11:05] <craag> clone my version to another folder
[11:05] <craag> git clone https://github.com/philcrump/lora-gateway.git tenparts-lora-gw
[11:05] <craag> then set up the gateway.txt again
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[11:07] <PE2BZ> craag thanks !
[11:07] <craag> believed freq/mode settings: http://pastebin.com/c8LN4VwH
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[11:22] <PE2BZ> craag , The Lora Habitat screen shows Channel 1 434.400 MHz and Explicit, 20.8K, SF8, EC 4:5 LDRO and then, beneath the Habitat screen it says Tracker, Channel 1 set to, Setting SF-8 Setting BW=62k5 Error coding =5 listening on port 6004. Would that be allright ?
[11:23] <craag> Negative
[11:23] <craag> BW should be 62.5k
[11:23] <craag> ah
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[11:23] <craag> sorry didn't listen
[11:23] <craag> yeah sounds good
[11:23] <craag> I've got 1x CRC failure so far
[11:23] <craag> but only just over blue line
[11:24] <Geoff-G8DHE> just tried it and yest the display shows 20.8KHz but the command says BW=62K5
[11:24] <Ron_G8FJG> tenparts on 434.402 rtty for 1k centre
[11:24] <craag> I've got both showing 62.5k
[11:25] <craag> But I only use Channel 1
[11:25] <PE2BZ> Thanks craag and Ron
[11:25] <craag> (only one rfm module)
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[11:27] <PE2BZ> craag I also use only one module, in the same slot ;-)
[11:28] <craag> :D
[11:29] <PE2BZ> Given the ascent rate, is TENPARTS1 going to float ?
[11:29] <craag> It's a pico
[11:29] <craag> Hmm I doubt it
[11:29] <craag> usually succesful pico floats are <0.7 m/s or so
[11:30] <PE2BZ> We´ll see... I have RTTY and LoRa online, so send it over here :-)
[11:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> Doesn't seem to be any TENPARTS records in Habitat logtail ??
[11:30] <PE2BZ> Away for lunch now. BRB
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[11:43] <fiftydollarsat> TENPARTS1 is a away, moving slowly North East
[11:44] <fiftydollarsat> If anyone is monitoring the LoRa and you have seen a packet like this; R*151.47830,-3.18562,6
[11:44] <fiftydollarsat> That coming from a lost model locator version of the tracker PCB, it on the floor in my garden.
[11:46] <Geoff-G8DHE> When did you decide to change the protocol format ?
[11:46] <fiftydollarsat> TENPARTS1 listens on 434.600Mhz for a while and repeats and packets on 434.400Mhz
[11:46] <fiftydollarsat> Hi, change which protocol format ?
[11:47] <Geoff-G8DHE> Putting the L*1 etc before the %%%callsign ?
[11:47] <Geoff-G8DHE> $$$callsign
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[11:48] <fiftydollarsat> That 'change' has always been there, in my LoRa code.
[11:49] <fiftydollarsat> Since about last October maybe.
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[11:50] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah OK it was being stripped off I guess as its before the $$'s
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[11:53] <fiftydollarsat> Yes, although the 3 adressing bytes are part of the payload, it is possible to add them and strip them so in normal use they are not visible.
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[11:57] <craag> Had one packet that started '?' so far..
[11:57] <craag> lots and lots of crc fails
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[12:02] <craag> so much fail
[12:02] <fiftydollarsat> mmmm, there are no packets that start with ?
[12:02] <craag> yeah, twas a bit weird, and my code threw it out as it didn't recognise it so no idea what the rest was
[12:03] <craag> false positive crc maybe
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[12:04] <fiftydollarsat> How far away are you, I have seen 1 or 2 CRC fails only so far.
[12:05] <craag> Farnham, surrey
[12:05] <craag> rssi is still a bit weak here
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[12:09] <fsphil> gateway running here but it would need to get a lot higher for me
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[12:15] <craag> getting a bit stronger here, but still no decoded packets
[12:15] <craag> hundreds of crc fails
[12:16] <craag> very weird - dave's SF6 flights start decoding about 30s after first crc fail
[12:16] <Ron_G8FJG> I just get unknown packet type 4Eh, 43h, 6Eh and crc failures but I dont know how to alter the code like you guys
[12:19] <craag> Ron_G8FJG: I have a patched version at: https://github.com/philcrump/lora-gateway/
[12:19] <craag> Which should decode and upload the 'L...' packets
[12:20] <fiftydollarsat> Unlike the RFM22B where a CRC failed packet was garbage, with LoRa you can print the contents of the packet.
[12:21] <fiftydollarsat> Which is lucky if the packet contains only one minor bit error.
[12:21] <dbrooke> some extra things to note are that Daves code doesn't unset certain parameters, I set mode 2 and override coding to 5
[12:22] <dbrooke> also TENPARTS1 appears to nat send a '\n' which Dave's code expects
[12:22] <dbrooke> s/nat/not/
[12:23] <craag> ah..
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[12:25] <fiftydollarsat> Yes, there are no ASCII control codes in the packets, although the FSK RTTY does add CR & LF at the end.
[12:27] <dbrooke> I'm not sure if I'm uploading both RTTY and LoRa as I can't load logtail for some reason
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[12:28] <dbrooke> "uncaught exception: Server's response was too long" on logtail page 8-(
[12:28] <craag> works for me
[12:28] <fiftydollarsat> I am uploading from LoRa only here at the moment.
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[12:31] <craag> I've updated my code to *maybe* account for the missing '\n'
[12:32] <craag> totally untested as I have yet to get a decoded packet
[12:33] <PE2BZ> craag I´ll take the time to wait for your reception. Has to raise a little to come into my reach.
[12:33] <craag> It's a pico
[12:33] <craag> so won't go up much more
[12:33] <craag> you'll be hoping for float and waiting for it to drift your way
[12:33] <PE2BZ> Then I leave the PI on, and as (when) you report good decoding I get the latest version.
[12:34] <craag> :)
[12:38] <dbrooke> craag: As a quick hack I just stuck a \n on the end and it seems to work
[12:38] <craag> the \n then gets stripped, so I just bypassed that
[12:38] <craag> so you've got incoming packets?
[12:39] <craag> what are your setting jsut to check?
[12:39] <craag> *settings
[12:39] <fiftydollarsat> The tracker is now to far away for it to receive the packets from the 'lost' tracker in my garden, so I just turned it off.
[12:39] <dbrooke> I think so, I took dl-fldigi offline and still seem to be appearing in the receivers list
[12:41] <dbrooke> mode_0=2 followed by Coding_0=5
[12:41] <craag> ok I'll try that
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[12:41] <fiftydollarsat> Note the last part of the payload has changed from Y,9,1* to Y,1,1*, that was me clearing bit 3 of the config byte.
[12:42] <dbrooke> if you don't first load a mode without LDRO then you can't turn it off
[12:42] <craag> ah
[12:42] <craag> :/
[12:42] <dbrooke> and I think it loads mode 0 by default
[12:42] <craag> that's worked
[12:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> 12:43:00 Ch0: $$$$TENZARTS1,132J1R:62:15$=^Y~~P1!1-,2.2^A49^A/6148,62,75,12,15,3
[12:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> ..
[12:43] <dbrooke> needs a couple of 'else' branches in the boolean configs
[12:43] <dbrooke> to disable stuff
[12:44] <craag> I hadn't recompiled.. grr
[12:44] <craag> waiting for next packet
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[12:55] <craag> PE2BZ: My git repo is now working
[12:55] <craag> you have to configure it with: mode_0=2 followed by Coding_0=5
[12:55] <craag> or _n to suit your module placement
[12:55] <craag> (thanks dbrooke )
[12:58] <dbrooke> no problem
[12:59] <PE2BZ> Thanks craag and dbrooke. Going to update
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[12:59] <dbrooke> btw my logtail issue was local filtering proxy, now bypassed for habhub
[13:00] <dbrooke> but seems too busy with ARY1 for me to spot my uploads
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[13:03] <PE2BZ> craag just before hitting the ctrl-c it gave me 1 CRC error. Would be a record if I had received something at this height and distance ?
[13:03] <PE2BZ> Updated, up and running now. Now wait....
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[13:08] <craag> Maybe PE2BZ !
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[13:15] <fiftydollarsat> Still receiving the 2dBm LoRa and FSk RTTY; 100km.
[13:15] <Laurenceb_> nice
[13:15] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
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[13:16] <michal_f> ary1 descending
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[13:51] <pb0ahx> !flights
[13:51] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: Current flights: 03ARY1 10(db95), 03TENPARTS1 10(6d92)
[13:52] <pb0ahx> !dial 6d92
[13:52] <SpacenearUS> 03pb0ahx: Latest dials for 03TENPARTS1 10(6d92): 03434.40196 MHz, 434.402 MHz, 434.4012 MHz, 434.402242 MHz
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[14:12] Nick change: Rebounder -> SM0ULC-Reb
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[14:20] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
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[14:31] <PE2BZ> I have greens on RTTY (Diamond V2000) and no packets at LoRa (Logper direction to TENPARTS1
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[14:33] <PE2BZ> RTTY brainfreeze on TENPARTS1 ?
[14:41] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03WB8ELK-3 after 0318 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WB8ELK-3
[14:44] <fiftydollarsat> Not sure, I can see the FSK RTTY, but it fadded from strong to fairly weak very quickly.
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[14:45] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
[14:45] <PE2BZ> 10 09
[14:45] <PE2BZ> 08
[14:45] <PE2BZ> 07
[14:45] <PE2BZ> p6
[14:45] <PE2BZ> 05
[14:46] <PE2BZ> 04
[14:46] <PE2BZ> 3
[14:46] <PE2BZ> _u} 2
[14:46] <PE2BZ> in RTTY. still no LoRa reception. Gonna exchange the antennas
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[14:50] <fiftydollarsat> Still getting the LoRa payload, 235km
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[14:52] <PE2BZ> 15:52:25 Ch1: $$TENPARTS1,234,14:51:57,52.05076,0.17094,6870,84,90,12,15,3561..
[14:52] <M0XIN> RTTY nice and clear here, all green
[14:53] <PE2BZ> Followed by Unknown packet type is 0x54 ('T'), RSSI -157
[14:53] <PE2BZ> Unknown packet type is 0x54 ('T'), RSSI -116
[14:53] <PE2BZ> Unknown packet type is 0x57 ('W'), RSSI -114
[14:55] <fiftydollarsat> 'T' is a test packet, 'W' is wakeup. It makes a bell go off in the terminal, to grab your attention.
[14:56] <fiftydollarsat> And the 04 indicates your receiving a packet at 4dBm.
[14:57] <PE2BZ> fiftydollarsat Thanks. the 04 is for the RTTY signal I assume, does this also apply to the LoRa packets ?
[14:57] <PE2BZ> and what are type C and type N packets in LoRa ?
[14:58] <PE2BZ> Running the gateway in a SSH shell now, much more easy to copy paste than to retype :-)
[15:00] <fiftydollarsat> Lost the LoRa at 244km.
[15:02] <fiftydollarsat> For details of the LoRa and RTTY test packets see the post on UKHAS.
[15:03] <PE2BZ> Currently reading ;-) Reception since 270 km and the TENPARTS1 is coming closer.
[15:04] <fiftydollarsat> The 'C' and 'N' were, ready for command (tracker is listening) and not ready. Used by the ground receiver to know when to uplink a instruction.
[15:06] <PE2BZ> Do you alternate the power descending transmissions by RTTY / Lora RTTY Lora or first 10 to 2 RTTY and then 10 to 2 LoRa ?
[15:06] <day> does anyone here know this chip? http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cc1125.pdf looks VERY interesting 2-FSK,2-GFSK,4-FSK,4-GFSK,MSK,OOK. -129 dBm sensitivity. 0.12uA idle ...
[15:06] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
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[15:09] <day> and the range is...impressive as well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMcRYLHCsw0
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[15:12] <fiftydollarsat> 10 to 2 in LoRa first 'a short gap, to allow time to switch antennas' then 10 to 2 in RTTY.
[15:15] <PE2BZ> Ok. I was looking at my SDR at work and I do see the RTTY signal down from 10 to 4 and my Icom at home also receives from 10 down to 4 this time.
[15:15] <PE2BZ> No LoRa on the spectrum yet. But it´s coming closer ...
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[15:16] <fiftydollarsat> CC1125? If the background noise level is circa -100dBm (which it can be) how do you get to use -129dB sensitivity ?
[15:16] <fiftydollarsat> Unless the receiver can operate at -29dB below noise ?
[15:18] <fiftydollarsat> Interesting, I lost the LoRa and the FSK RTTY at around the same time, which is about what I had expected.
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[15:24] <fiftydollarsat> I am off round the shops, need beer to watch the Rugby.
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[15:26] <fiftydollarsat> And it was called TENPARTS, since apart from some wire, it need only 10 parts to build it.
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[15:27] <day> fiftydollarsat: well i guess it doesnt hurt, to have a better sensitivity than the surrounding allows.
[15:30] <M0XIN> Damn, the east of England and the North Sea really are a bit of a signal blackspot for me
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[15:32] <eroomde> need more shacks in the north sea
[15:33] <M0XIN> I have an antenna rotator and yagi arriving early next week which should solve this problem
[15:33] <M0XIN> And I'm building a shack in the north sea
[15:36] <day> M0XIN: sounds interesting. what exactly are you building? and where will it be positioned?
[15:37] <M0XIN> I already have a Diamond X-50 on the chimney, so this be a loft-based affair
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[15:41] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KD2HEQ-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD2HEQ-11
[15:46] <fsphil> bring back the pirate radio ships
[15:47] <PE2BZ> http://wikisend.com/download/593758/LoRa_TENPARTS1.JPG
[15:47] <eroomde> ukhasnet/lora buoy
[15:47] <Ian_> PE2BZ to answer your earlier question, UK is now on Zulu time as of this morning. Same for you, Alpha, Z +1hr?
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[15:49] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[15:49] <PE2BZ> Ian_ thanks. Indeed we are on Z +1hr
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[15:49] <Ian_> Many thanks
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[15:51] <day> so, could the cc1125 be an replacement for the NTX2B? Its output performance is higher. Temperature shouldnt be an issue with an external TCXO which are mostly rated down to -40C
[15:52] <eroomde> fly one and see
[15:53] <Ian_> :)
[15:54] <day> well i think im missing something fundamental, because the ntx2b is a gigantic package
[15:54] <Ian_> I think it would be good if the zero to LEO could all get together on the same day of the month . . .
[15:54] <Ian_> It would save a lot of repetition
[15:55] <fiftydollarsat> Whilst the LoRa devices are good at low data rate, very long distance comms, maybe the CC1125 would be better at low bandwidth stuff.
[15:55] <daveake> The NTX2B is sized that way to be a slot-in replacement for the NTX2
[15:56] <fiftydollarsat> High data rate, low bandwidth would allow for 100% duty rate operation.
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[15:59] <day> the sexy part is that it also can jump between different bands
[15:59] <eroomde> you can join the aprs-when-appropriate club
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[16:13] <DL7AD> are there path predictions for TENPARTS1
[16:13] <DL7AD> ?
[16:16] <SA6BSS> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/165885_trj001.gif
[16:17] <kokey> what's a simple predictor tool nowadays?
[16:17] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03DL7AD-13 after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL7AD-13
[16:17] <kokey> just wondering where something launched from around Dublin would go
[16:19] <Ian_> Predominantly the Irish Sea
[16:19] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> http://predict.habhub.org/ for prediction
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[16:21] <kokey> Ian_: hah, yes
[16:21] <kokey> well, I was thinking more along the lines of a pico
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[16:23] <Ian_> It would be a result if you could make England or Wales, but sadly the prevailing winds are not helpful for keeping the flight in Ireland.
[16:23] <SA6BSS> kokey: then you have to figure where do u want to go, and then run predictor every day until there is a prediction you like
[16:23] <Ian_> Also anything other than a pico is likely to be a bit too near the airport for an easy life.
[16:24] <Ian_> but don't quote me on that one! :)
[16:31] <SA6BSS> DL7AD: ehh did the aprs pico survive the drop?? last I saw it was down to 2200m
[16:31] <SA6BSS> and now it turn ip over russia
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[16:42] <kokey> ggg
[16:42] <kokey> ff~.
[16:42] <kokey> oh, looks like I was connected, hah
[16:43] <SM0ULC-Reb> DL7AD: great height on your -13 floater :)
[16:43] <kokey> Ian_: no public right of way in ireland, so fields are rare, fortunately most of the public access parks are quite far from the airport
[16:44] <kokey> is the rfm22b still a good radio module, or anything more convenient around nowadays?
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[16:46] <DL7AD> SA6BSS: no. it probably leaked.
[16:47] <DL7AD> and probably lies now in a field of mines in bosnia.
[16:47] <DL7AD> SM0ULC-Reb: :D yeah. the gps is fed by an gps simulator
[16:48] <SM0ULC-Reb> DL7AD: aaaaha
[16:48] <DL7AD> SM0ULC-Reb: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzVllHCGu5FNzdScDY2cWk2Nms/view?usp=sharing
[16:48] <DL7AD> and its then transmitted (HF) to the ublox
[16:49] <kokey> wow, the rfm69 modules are well cheap nowadays
[16:49] <DL7AD> its purpose was actually for testing the high altitude configuration
[16:50] <SM0ULC-Reb> DL7AD: nice
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[16:51] <DL7AD> SM0ULC-Reb: i usually use 13 for testing because its a bad number :P
[16:51] <DL7AD> and 12 14 and 15 is for flying
[16:51] <DL7AD> ^^
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[16:53] <SM0ULC-Reb> :)
[16:54] <DL7AD> are there predictions for the floater in uk?
[16:59] <BeaverOne> Optimization of the Fuzzy Logic Controller for an Autonomous UAV : http://www.calpoly.edu/~salpteki/Teaching/Parafoil/Ervin.pdf
[17:03] <DL1SGP> hi all :)
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[17:11] <BeaverOne> anyone here into parafoils?
[17:12] <kokey> BeaverOne: I've been fancying the idea of return flights with those
[17:12] <BeaverOne> kokey: :P seems a few are including myself
[17:13] <BeaverOne> i'm working on a project for an Autonomous Flight Controller, currently have just the sensor cluster, IMU/GPS up and running, need a lot of studying to understand how to apply either a PID or Fuzzy Logic Control mechanism
[17:14] <kokey> BeaverOne: the main thing I was wondering about is how to test it, lots
[17:14] <kokey> high rise building with a fishing line pulley, perhaps
[17:15] <BeaverOne> kokey: you understand already the basic control implementation? i've got a lot to learn
[17:15] <BeaverOne> i understand PID control as a feedback loop, attempting to correct current values towards expected values
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[17:17] <BeaverOne> but i'm trying to figure out how to make use of orientation and location data as inputs into the Control systems to give corrective action to one or more Servos pulling the strings of the parafoil
[17:18] <SA6BSS> DL7AD: http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/165885_trj001.gif
[17:18] <DL7AD> SA6BSS: thx
[17:19] <kokey> I was thinking along the line of working out the intended direction of travel closer to the destination, working out of turning clockwise or anti clockwise is good, yank left or right to do that
[17:20] <kokey> and then when being close to a good long/lat put it into a spin
[17:20] <SpeedEvil> BeaverOne: you mean you are trying to work out how to control the flight path, or work out the orientation and position?
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[17:22] <BeaverOne> SpeedEvil: control the flight path, i've got the orientation and position data, it's a decent setup, using an MTK3339 gps module i'm getting 6 decimal places of accuracy for longitude and latitude. i'm using a BNO055 Bosch 9 DOF to get x,y,z orientation data
[17:22] <BeaverOne> Location: 40.xxxx,-79.xxxx Altitide (meters) : 347.70 Date/Time: 10/25/2015 00:44:36.00 Orientation: 3.81 -0.63 -0.19
[17:23] <BeaverOne> now i want to make use of whatever data i can report from these sensors to control flight path using some Control mechanism like PID or Fuzzy
[17:23] <SpeedEvil> The bosch outputs cooked orientation data that you don't need to process?
[17:23] <day> how do you alter the flightpath?
[17:24] <BeaverOne> SpeedEvil: yeah, it has some builtin Cortex M0+ and Fusion software which i believe includes kalman filtering
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> Also, you're getting 6 places of resolution for ...
[17:24] <day> 'assuming you speak about a balloon'
[17:24] <BeaverOne> SpeedEvil: current position longitude and latitude
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> yes, resolution is not accuracy
[17:25] <BeaverOne> day: going to be using a parafoil and Servos to pull the strings to adjust it's flight
[17:25] <BeaverOne> SpeedEvil: oh, resolution
[17:25] <BeaverOne> SpeedEvil: https://www.bosch-sensortec.com/de/homepage/products_3/software/software
[17:26] <BeaverOne> the Bosch is running that builtin
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> How much is that?
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> Being able to incorporate GPS can really improve performance.
[17:27] <BeaverOne> SpeedEvil: https://www.bosch-sensortec.com/en/homepage/products_3/sensor_hubs/iot_solutions/bno055_1/bno055_4
[17:27] <BeaverOne> the breakout board i got for that was $35
[17:28] <SpeedEvil> not bad at all
[17:30] <SpeedEvil> Meh - still 150ug/sqrt(hz)
[17:30] <BeaverOne> what does that mean?
[17:30] <SpeedEvil> Accellerometer noise.
[17:31] <SpeedEvil> it sets (amongst other things) limits on the position and velocity drift
[17:31] <SpeedEvil> It is comparable with a large number of other accel chips)
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[17:35] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
[17:36] <BeaverOne> hoping to get this figured out : http://www.calpoly.edu/~salpteki/Teaching/Parafoil/
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[17:42] <eroomde> BeaverOne: you linked to a paper earlier
[17:42] <eroomde> Optimization of the Fuzzy Logic Controller for an Autonomous UAV
[17:42] <eroomde> don't read it
[17:43] <eroomde> unless you specifically know that a genertic-algorithm trained fuzzy logic controller is the right way to do your uav (which it isn't, in any universe, ever) then ignore it
[17:43] <eroomde> it'll just confuse you more
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[18:16] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Sp0abc_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Sp0abc_chase
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[18:23] <PE2BZ> What would be the battery expectation for TENPARTS1 ?
[18:23] <Ron_G8FJG> have the wheels fallen off
[18:23] <PE2BZ> It´s transmitting MARK only at the moment, after sending the 10 dBm value
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[18:27] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[18:28] <PE2BZ> at 19:28 Local Time (18:28 UTC) the MARK fell off and since then I received no more transmissions.
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[18:31] <pb0ahx> here also no transmissions more
[18:32] <PE2BZ> To bad..
[18:33] <pb0ahx> batterei down
[18:34] <PE2BZ> I leave the Pi standbye in case LoRa gets back.
[18:35] <pb0ahx> me to
[18:35] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
[18:37] <M0XIN> 3V arduino I'm assuming, so it would make sense to lose it around now
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[18:37] <M0XIN> Shame, looked like a decent float
[18:38] <PE2BZ> pb0ahx do you use a Yagi ?
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[18:38] <pb0ahx> yes
[18:39] <PE2BZ> I am on the V-2000 collineair. Do you turn your antenna to the East ? Is there a chance that the battery ¨lives up¨ by daylight ?
[18:42] <pb0ahx> we hope i let the equpement on here
[18:43] <PE2BZ> Good night to all.
[18:43] <pb0ahx> gn an tnx
[18:43] <DL1SGP> slaap lekker Ben
[18:43] <DL1SGP> en pb0ahx
[18:43] <PE2BZ> Jij ook Felix. Tijd voor social talk met de XYL
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[18:58] <fiftydollarsat> Thanks guys for following it. It was a 3.3V Arduino Pro Mini powered tracker, and only a single LiPo cell (keep it simple!)
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[18:59] <SM0ULC-Reb> no solar?
[18:59] <pb0ahx> til now it was a ggod flight tnx
[19:00] <fiftydollarsat> Now when it gets dark, its gets very cold, and that reduces the voltage from the LiPo a lot, so the tracker stops working.
[19:01] <pb0ahx> maby tomorrow go on agn
[19:01] <fiftydollarsat> The PCB can take a LT2917 watchdog, and shutting the Pro Mini down when the voltage drops (in the cold) may allow the battery to come back to life when it warms up.
[19:04] <fiftydollarsat> And no solar, although the PCB can be fitted with a Lion charger IC, which then would keep the battery charged if you added solar panels, not tried that, yet.
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[19:30] <james_oxford> hello guys
[19:32] <fsphil> ahoy
[19:32] <eroomde> greetings james_oxford
[19:33] <james_oxford> ahh just the person. how are you
[19:34] <eroomde> nasty cold, otherwise alright
[19:34] <eroomde> you?
[19:34] <james_oxford> I know how you feel. I'm better thanks
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[19:40] <james_oxford> has anyone here used a Trackimo
[19:49] <eroomde> that's probably a no
[19:50] <james_oxford> was wondering if it was any use for ballooning, needing a new one for my quadcopter also
[19:50] <Upu> Trackuino ?
[19:51] <daveake> No - it's a GSM thing
[19:51] <Upu> oh ok
[19:51] <daveake> The perceived wisdom is that GSM trackers work about half the time
[19:51] <Lunar_Lander> hi dave and anthony :)
[19:51] <Upu> "lighest GPS tracker"
[19:51] <daveake> I've used GSM trackers twice and one worked once
[19:51] <Upu> err no
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[19:52] <daveake> good evening Mr LL
[19:52] <Lunar_Lander> hope you are all good
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[19:57] <james_oxford> gps and gsm i thought
[19:58] <daveake> yes we say "gsm tracker" like "radio tracker"; gps is assumed
[19:58] <james_oxford> ah okay. it's still quite new to me
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> don't worry :)
[20:05] <james_oxford> Ed are you free early in the week?
[20:06] <eroomde> possibly tuesday but cold depending
[20:06] <eroomde> tho tbh i can make it to the punter reardless of snot
[20:09] <james_oxford> Fab, that would be great with me. Need to submit my proposal on Friday
[20:11] <eroomde> ok
[20:11] <eroomde> tuesday then
[20:11] <eroomde> 7.30 punter
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[20:11] <james_oxford> fantastic. Thanks Ed, I look forward to it
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[20:12] <eroomde> np
[20:13] <Laurenceb_> hi eroomde
[20:13] <Laurenceb_> I have a question about rocket motor test stands
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[20:13] <Laurenceb_> what do you think a sensible strain gauge bandwidth would be?
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> for a ~D motor stand
[20:14] <eroomde> probably even 100hz would be fine
[20:14] <eroomde> for our stuff i sample at 10kHz with 2kHz anti-alis filters
[20:15] <Laurenceb_> ok
[20:15] <Laurenceb_> yeah I'm not interested in combustion dynamics, I trust that it works
[20:15] <Laurenceb_> just trying to double check the published thrust curves
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[20:16] <eroomde> well probably 100hz would let you do pixel-for-pixel comparisons with the vga jpeg thrust curves they publish :)
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> haha yeah
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> only they dont even publish that
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> I just have some dodgy stuff from forums
[20:18] <Laurenceb_> oddly the ISP is way lower than the result from simulations
[20:19] <Laurenceb_> maybe I should email Mr Klima himself
[20:20] <eroomde> i'd just lob in on a load cell
[20:20] <eroomde> make asimple int amp - adc- micro - serial port thing
[20:20] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[20:21] <eroomde> 512000bd is about 30ksps at 16bits
[20:21] <Laurenceb_> its just that I need to have a rough idea of how the ISP will scale with pressure
[20:21] <eroomde> well if your nozzle is not weird that should just be bookwork
[20:21] <Laurenceb_> and that is chemistry dependant
[20:21] <Laurenceb_> yeah, I have a rough idea
[20:22] <eroomde> so a sea level firing can check your model is right in an absolute sense
[20:22] <eroomde> and the scaling should be easy enough
[20:22] <Laurenceb_> it looks like my nozzle modifications + ~ vacuum operation should give a 45% ISP increase
[20:22] <Laurenceb_> to 145 seconds from ~100
[20:23] <eroomde> not bad
[20:23] <eroomde> shame that's still such a low isp in absolute terms tho
[20:23] <Laurenceb_> yes thats what confuses me
[20:24] <eroomde> well definitely rig it up and measure
[20:24] <Laurenceb_> Potassium chlorate should be giving me ~230s with the new nozzle
[20:24] <Laurenceb_> *perchlorate
[20:24] <Laurenceb_> according to forum posts the Klima "test" data is a lie
[20:24] <Laurenceb_> and they faked the certification
[20:24] <Laurenceb_> thats one reason I want to make a rig
[20:25] <Laurenceb_> some people claim the D motor is actually an E motor
[20:25] <eroomde> i ahve no idea what this constant klima referencing is
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[20:26] <Laurenceb_> http://www.raketenmodellbau-klima.de
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[20:33] <Laurenceb_> specifically http://www.raketenmodellbau-klima.de/Raketenmodellbau/Motoren-Treibsaetze.htm?shop=raketenklima&SessionId=&a=catalog&t=23&c=712&p=712
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[20:34] <james_oxford> So has anyone seen the new DJI OSMO? Handheld Stabilised 4K Camera! I'm wondering what it's HA chances are
[20:36] <eroomde> does it worth without accompanying smartphone?
[20:37] <chris_99> 749 euro eek
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[20:39] <james_oxford> es. You can remove your smartphone and the camera will continue recording video or capturing photos.
[20:40] <james_oxford> I am still keen to 3D print a 6 GoPro mount
[20:40] <fsphil> good chunk of those euros is probably in the optics
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[20:41] <james_oxford> and the motorised gimbal is like the DJI Inspire 1
[20:41] <james_oxford> they are now making a micro 4/3 camera too
[20:41] <james_oxford> removable lenses
[20:46] <BeaverOne> Laurenceb_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIJIH9dCHqw
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[20:51] <Laurenceb_> Matlab...
[20:52] <Laurenceb_> looks impressive i guess
[20:53] <BeaverOne> heh
[20:53] <BeaverOne> Laurenceb_: wanna work on a Fuzzy Logic Controller for the autonomation?
[20:53] <Laurenceb_> no
[20:53] <BeaverOne> :(
[20:53] <Laurenceb_> Fuzzy logic is fuzzily defined and a bit of a buzzword imo
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[21:35] <wb8elk> Day 3 aloft on our Pico balloon launched from Huntsville AL. It got just barely close enough to the east coast of Florida to hit some digipeaters in the morning and just before sunset a few minutes ago. It is about 280 mile east of Melbourne Florida heading slowly towards the Bahamas.
[21:35] <lz1dev> .aprs ping wb8elk*
[21:35] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Latest contact: 03WB8ELK-9 10(an hour ago), 03WB8ELK-15 10(10 months ago), 03WB8ELK-11 10(4 months ago), 03WB8ELK-14 10(3 months ago), 03WB8ELK-8 10(4 months ago), 03WB8ELK-6 10(2 months ago), 03WB8ELK-5 10(9 months ago), 03WB8ELK-3 10(31 minutes ago), 03WB8ELK-4 10(3 months ago), 03WB8ELK-1 10(15 days ago), 03WB8ELK-2 10(21 days ago)
[21:36] <lz1dev> .whereis wb8elk-9
[21:36] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: I haven't got a clue
[21:36] <wb8elk> WB8ELK-3
[21:36] <lz1dev> oh the list is not sorted
[21:36] <lz1dev> :(
[21:36] <wb8elk> It is also on the Habhub tracker map.
[21:37] <lz1dev> .whereis wb8elk-3
[21:37] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: 03WB8ELK-3 was over 03North Atlantic Ocean 10(28.31816,-77.22034) at 037123 meters about 0333 minutes ago
[21:37] <lz1dev> ;>
[21:37] <wb8elk> It has only traveled 140 km distance today so very slow winds at 7100 meters.
[21:38] <wb8elk> :-)
[21:38] <Laurenceb_> http://rocketdungeon.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/hobby-rocket-motors-used-to-boost.html
[21:39] <wb8elk> 17 gram totally solar-powered APRS transmitter on 144.390 MHz and also transmits on 144.340 MHz. 27 milliwatts
[21:39] <jcoxon> hey wb8elk
[21:40] <wb8elk> W7QO-8 is also up on the same type of 36-inch Mylar party balloon and he is tracking about 100 miles further out east of my track. His payload is 10 grams.
[21:41] <jcoxon> nice to see Picos at flight
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[21:45] <wb8elk> Hi James...flaky Internet connection with my Cellular modem so switched back to my slow DSL line.
[21:45] <wb8elk> so I missed anything you might have replied to me.
[21:46] <wb8elk> .whereis w7qo-8
[21:46] <SpacenearUS> 03wb8elk: 03W7QO-8 was over 03North Atlantic Ocean 10(32.41294,-73.89345) at 038822 meters about 0310 hours ago
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[21:49] <lz1dev> .aprs ping wb8elk*
[21:49] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Latest contact: 03WB8ELK-3 10(an hour ago), 03WB8ELK-9 10(an hour ago), 03WB8ELK-1 10(15 days ago), 03WB8ELK-2 10(21 days ago), 03WB8ELK-6 10(2 months ago), 03WB8ELK-4 10(3 months ago), 03WB8ELK-14 10(3 months ago), 03WB8ELK-5 10(9 months ago), 03WB8ELK-15 10(10 months ago), 03WB8ELK-11 10(4 months ago), 03WB8ELK-8 10(4 months ago)
[21:49] <lz1dev> :>
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[22:23] <BeaverOne> anyone interested in discussing parafoil-like flight controllers?
[22:23] <BeaverOne> i'm wondering if i should get a RC paraglider/foil to understand the mechanics better
[22:26] <eroomde> i think that'd be a good idea
[22:27] <eroomde> you can also test your autopilot
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[22:29] <BeaverOne> eroomde: i'm still attempting to determine what data i'm supposed to use to guide it
[22:31] <eroomde> i'd guess gps, magnetic and maybe a rate gyro on jaw
[22:31] <BeaverOne> i've got the data for orientation (fusion/kalman filtering through Bosch) and position (GPS), i have a general understanding of how a human can pull the ropes to guide the chute
[22:31] <BeaverOne> so i can imagine the servo pulling the ropes
[22:32] <BeaverOne> i just can't connect the dots of the data through the PID or Fuzzy Logic control to the servo corrections
[22:33] <eroomde> ok
[22:33] <eroomde> forget fuzzy logic
[22:33] <eroomde> it's horseshit
[22:33] <eroomde> never say it on this channel again
[22:33] <eroomde> now that's out the way
[22:33] <eroomde> pid tries to correct an error, right?
[22:33] <eroomde> by correct i mean, reduce an error to zero
[22:34] <BeaverOne> yes
[22:34] <eroomde> typically the error is some desired parameter value and some real parameter value, the error being the difference between them
[22:34] <eroomde> so that parmeter is what you need to pick
[22:34] <BeaverOne> i was thinking longitude and latitude
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[22:35] <eroomde> well yes of course
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[22:35] <eroomde> but control loops can be nested
[22:35] <eroomde> so you might have one that just controls a turn rate
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[22:35] <eroomde> at the heart of things
[22:35] <BeaverOne> so i've got x,y,z orientation data
[22:36] <eroomde> and then one higher up that controls heading
[22:36] <eroomde> orientation is not measured in x, y or z
[22:36] <BeaverOne> Orientation: 357.00 -0.75 -0.56
[22:36] <eroomde> be specific
[22:36] <BeaverOne> hmm, well let me see
[22:36] <Laurenceb_> that looks like Euler angles to me
[22:36] <BeaverOne> "/* The processing sketch expects data as roll, pitch, heading */"
[22:37] <eroomde> right, so yes, euler angles
[22:37] <eroomde> ok i want to go to bed so we'll drop socratic method crap and i'll just tell you what to do for now
[22:37] <eroomde> 1) the inner loops needs to feed back on a banking angle, not a turn rate, for stable manouvres with a parafoil
[22:38] <eroomde> that is impornt
[22:38] <BeaverOne> eroomde: not sure if you knew, but i'm getting this from a Bosch BNO055 with builtin sensor fusion from it's onboard Cortex M0+ (doing kalman filtering, etc) and some bosch software.. supposedly pretty decent
[22:38] <eroomde> 2) just keep it aiming a few degrees off the actual bearing to the target
[22:38] <eroomde> that will fly it to the target then spiral it down once you get close
[22:38] <eroomde> two PID loops
[22:39] <eroomde> 3) paraoil stability in low air densities is going to cause you all sorts of fun
[22:39] <Laurenceb_> interesting point on banking angle
[22:39] <eroomde> test it at low altitudes and work up
[22:39] <Laurenceb_> do you think thats the case for Rogallo too?
[22:39] <eroomde> it's much morestable Laurenceb_
[22:39] <eroomde> removes a bunch of poles
[22:39] <Laurenceb_> ok
[22:39] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[22:39] <BeaverOne> i'm going to have to study a lot to get the nity grity of implementing this
[22:39] <eroomde> yep
[22:39] <Laurenceb_> I chose turn rate as its easier to measure reliably
[22:40] <Laurenceb_> didnt really model stability versus altitude
[22:40] <Laurenceb_> thats a very good point
[22:40] <Laurenceb_> different dynamics at significant altitude might make it unstable quite rapidly
[22:40] <eroomde> yep!
[22:40] <Laurenceb_> I never modelled that
[22:40] <eroomde> added mass effect moves your CG right down into the payload at high alts
[22:40] <Laurenceb_> although the situation is much worse for a parafoil, as you explain
[22:40] <eroomde> you can stall it trivially
[22:41] <Laurenceb_> due to all the other higher order effects
[22:41] <eroomde> anyway gtg
[22:41] <Laurenceb_> cya
[22:41] <eroomde> BeaverOne: buy an rc model
[22:41] <BeaverOne> eroomde: thank you
[22:41] <eroomde> make an autopilot that just tries to maintain a steady heading for now
[22:41] <eroomde> work from there
[22:41] <eroomde> way easier to eat the elephant in bite-sized pieces
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> Simulation can be very reasonable too
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> At least for 0th cuts.
[22:42] <BeaverOne> SpeedEvil: matlab simulation?
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> whatever
[22:49] <BeaverOne> http://www.reallycooltoys.com/products-para-rtf-oxy.html
[22:49] <BeaverOne> they are expensive
[22:49] <BeaverOne> that's a real small one, and still almost $400
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[22:56] <BeaverOne> heh, seems that's about right based on other products. Laurenceb_ how much did you pay for yours ?
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[22:58] <Laurenceb_> about a tenth of that
[22:59] <Laurenceb_> but I decided on a Rogallo
[22:59] <Laurenceb_> mainly due to the fact that it can recover from very severe turbulence
[23:01] <BeaverOne> Laurenceb_: what brand / model?
[23:01] <Laurenceb_> I can't remember
[23:01] <Laurenceb_> I never used it
[23:04] <Laurenceb_> ah this connector looks durable enough to me
[23:04] <Laurenceb_> https://www.iter.org/album/media/2%20-%20manufacturing%20underway#3434
[23:27] <M0XIN> BeaverOne: Look out for a Skysurfer Mikrokite
[23:27] <M0XIN> They're cheap, brushed motor radio-controlled paramotors
[23:27] <M0XIN> They can be easily converted to brushless
[23:32] <BeaverOne> looking
[23:32] <M0XIN> Microkite, rather
[23:32] <M0XIN> Sorry, went all German there for a moment
[23:33] <M0XIN> They're a bit hard to get hold of but you do see them pop up on eBay from time to time
[23:33] <M0XIN> The RC "tech" inside them is ancient, but they are cheap
[23:34] <M0XIN> BeaverOne: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4Fydv_Y4x0
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[23:35] <M0XIN> Also occasionally can be found as a clone called the "Gold Rosita"
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[23:55] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CALLSIGN123_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CALLSIGN123_chase
[00:00] --- Mon Oct 26 2015