highaltitude.log.20151021

[00:00] <SpeedEvil> Ah - I missed that
[00:00] <SpeedEvil> See the calculator on the bottom
[00:02] <trn> I know this is probably in a FAQ somewhere but I couldn't find it .... Is there a legal guide anywhere for using cellular at high altitudes in the US?
[00:05] <russss> it won't work over 2000ft
[00:05] <SIbot> In real units: 2000 ft = 610 m
[00:05] <russss> feet are still real units in aviation, SIbot.
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> Celltowers use antennas pointed just below the horizon with lots of gain
[00:05] <trn> 47 CFR 22.925, prohibits the use of cell phones after
[00:05] <trn> the aircraft leaves the ground. This rule applies to all aircraft
[00:05] <trn> whether commercial or private or whether powered or simply a balloon.
[00:05] <trn> The FCC rule applies only to cell phones. It does not apply to other
[00:05] <trn> PEDs (Portable Electronic Devices).
[00:05] <russss> plenty of private pilots use their phones at altitude, anything you've heard about it "breaking cell networks" is crap
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> they intentionally avoid radiating up, to get better range
[00:06] <trn> Oh man sorry didn't mean to flood :p
[00:06] <russss> oh, I didn't realise it was restricted for general aviation in the US, but I can assure you it's broadly ignored :)
[00:06] <Evidlo> testing: 1234ft
[00:06] <SIbot> In real units: 1234 ft = 376 m
[00:06] <trn> I'm a ham so I'm more worried about breaking any FCC rules and getting my license dinged.
[00:08] <russss> I've used my phone in a GA plane in the US so I'll chalk that up as another federal law I wasn't aware I'd broken
[00:08] <trn> I have a GSM module and baseband radio I want to add to a project. I know it won't work at altitude but I want it to call home when it re-enters but before it hits a roof or lake :)
[00:09] <trn> russss: that happens a lot sadly these days
[00:10] <trn> Also you can read the law a bunch but you need a legal research assistant to know how the law is actually interpreted these days.
[00:10] <trn> Like what they consider or don't consider a phone.
[00:11] <trn> Russss: I wonder if "phones" are like guns. If you are familiar with the whole AR/M4 "80% receiver" ecosystem.
[00:12] <russss> heh
[00:12] <russss> I am a fan of this twitter account https://twitter.com/CrimeADay/status/656248866505936900
[00:12] <SpeedEvil> trn: you may get as little as a minute or less of signal, especially if it hits a not-spot.
[00:12] <trn> If not, essentially, some guys kept sending a lower receiver to the ATF during each stage of manufacturing asking if it was a "gun" yet or not.
[00:12] <russss> oh yeah, this one. https://twitter.com/CrimeADay/status/651197680480194561
[00:12] <SpeedEvil> Not-spots are much, much more common 10cm above the ground.
[00:13] <trn> Anyway they eventually were told it was a gun so they went one step back to when it wasn't and now those are just pieces of metal.
[00:13] <trn> I will have to keep sending my project to the FCC and asking them when it becomes a phone.
[00:14] <trn> russss: Some attorney wrote a good book on that.
[00:15] <russss> that twitter account makes me happy every time I think UK law is ridiculous
[00:15] <trn> SpeedEvil: a minute is probably more than enough. Once - or if - it connects, the first thing it can transmit is the last gpsd fix. After that, the rest of the telemetry or logs.
[00:15] <russss> trn: you can always enable it based on GPS altitude, but I doubt the FCC will care too much
[00:16] <SpeedEvil> That is a minute of signal to the cellphone.
[00:16] <SpeedEvil> The module may not logon to the network in that time.
[00:16] <russss> it may be worth resetting the mobile module once you're in reasonable distance to the ground, as I believe some of them get a bit stuck
[00:17] <trn> Luckily we haven't lost anything yet.
[00:17] <SpeedEvil> It's best to track ont eh way down.
[00:17] <SpeedEvil> SPOT is also an option
[00:18] <trn> But I think chances are good it would work and if it doesn't it isn't critical.
[00:18] <russss> trn: but also in terms of the law, general aviation pilots are licensed by the FAA and the FCC so I'm guessing neither of them really give a shit
[00:19] <trn> works for me then :)
[00:20] <trn> the last thing I want is to lose a balloon that quite literally would have my name and contact information next to an "illegal transmitter"
[00:21] <trn> And since people
[00:21] <trn> call the police for everything and anything now if I did lose it chances are the police would take it.
[00:21] <russss> they won't be able to tell if it's actually transmitting, and I suspect it's quite unlikely that it's going to fall into the hands of an FCC inspector
[00:22] <russss> if it's anything like the UK's FCC equivalent they have a load of more important stuff to deal with
[00:22] <russss> I do wonder why that law is there though
[00:22] <trn> Right now I'm using a beacon not quite legally either but it's low power
[00:23] <trn> Essentially sending out a few mw as AM as CW with the gps info
[00:24] <russss> can you not use APRS like all the other cool US balloons?
[00:25] <trn> russss: I would but I'm just the electronics guy and my friends aren't licensed
[00:26] <russss> ah well I don't know how the licensing works over there. You could always use the world-famous UKHAS license-free radio system :)
[00:26] <trn> they started just sending up a GoPro and it was my idea to add a rpi to that with some gadgets hanging off the gpio
[00:29] <trn> russss: thanks for the input. btw, are building or trying to build a rockoon
[00:31] <russss> trn: you should try and chat to eroomde and Laurenceb. Laurenceb is trying to get past the karman line with an ultralight rockoon, and eroomde is our resident rocket scientist.
[00:31] <russss> I'll probably have annoyed them immensely by saying that.
[00:32] <trn> haha, thanks.
[00:37] <mbales> cell radios generally dont work over 20k feet
[00:38] <mbales> little late to the party today
[00:38] <russss> yeah also it's mostly 2k feet
[00:38] <trn> russss: we know our Estes model rocket launch worked at altitude from the balloon since a guy found it took us up on the $100 reward :)
[00:38] <mbales> just an order of magnitude off
[00:38] <russss> no big deal :)
[00:38] <mbales> you may look at the ardupilot 1 watt 900mhz links
[00:39] <mbales> ive heard they work on weather balloons but havent tried it myself
[00:39] <russss> yeah I think you have 1W at 900MHz in the US I think? That's a good power, and unlicensed
[00:39] <mbales> especially with a decent antenna on the ground
[00:39] <mbales> yes, perfectly legal unlicensed
[00:39] <plantain_> cell phones work just fine at the altitudes I fly, ground->18kft
[00:39] <trn> I only want cell because it can get online and upload the logs if it can get a signal.
[00:39] <mbales> as long as the antenna isnt over 6dbm i think
[00:39] <russss> bear in mind we regularly get 300-400km range at 10mW with a reasonable yagi
[00:40] <russss> so 1W is delicious overkill by UKHAS standards
[00:40] <trn> russss: all good unless you have no idea where to look :)
[00:40] <mbales> higher frequency does less well with distance
[00:40] <mbales> but still likely overkill
[00:40] <mbales> thats the nice thing about ardupilot, built in antenna tracking
[00:41] <russss> I've got a 10mW signal at 150km with a home-made quarter-wave groundplane
[00:41] <trn> also the power means needing batteries and weight and I'm trying to reduce from my 10m beacon
[00:41] <russss> don't underestimate line-of-sight :)
[00:41] <trn> I'm all for QRP fun
[00:41] <mbales> here here
[00:41] <trn> But not when trying to find our videos :)
[00:42] <russss> well, we regularly retrieve payloads using 10mW transmitters in the UK
[00:42] <russss> because that's the only thing we can legally do
[00:42] <russss> (but we're also a small country with a high density network of receivers)
[00:43] <mbales> dont forget the metric system
[00:43] <mbales> (most of the time)
[00:43] <russss> it's not QRP for QRP's sake, it's just the law here. We can't fly amateur radio transmitters.
[00:43] <trn> russss: My little homemade transmitter is about half a watt probably.
[00:44] <mbales> be back in a bit
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[00:44] <trn> So yeah never lost anything yet
[00:44] <trn> But when doing rocketry I've certainly lost things simply because I couldn't get to them.
[00:45] <trn> Not wanting to go into private property farmlands or the roof of buildings or what not. :)
[00:46] <russss> that's a lot worse in the UK - you've got it easy :P
[00:46] <russss> although at least we usually don't have to worry about people trying to shoot at us I guess.
[00:48] <russss> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-34485384
[00:48] <trn> russss: I once called a farms phone number and tried to explain to them that my toy rocket crashed somewhere on their land.
[00:48] <trn> "It's white and about 3 feet long with a little parachute"
[00:48] <SIbot> In real units: 3 ft = 0.91 m
[00:48] <trn> They didn't really care and I never got it back. :)
[00:49] <trn> I don't really care about losing $200 in electronic crap of it means I get my video even if I can't recover the payload
[00:50] <trn> Ha, cool story.
[00:51] <trn> russss: I've got an illegal Connex 10m/11m in the truck but that's different.
[00:51] <trn> If I'm in a bad situation calling our geriatric Hans for help on 2m is next to useless
[00:51] <trn> *hams
[00:53] <trn> Good for the autopatch I guess. But you can crank up power on CB 9 and 19 and get rescued for sure
[00:54] <trn> I don't normally go around jamming everyone with my 100W CB :)
[00:55] <russss> heh, CB is something I haven't touched in a fair while
[00:56] <trn> I'm a redneck and for redneck activities it is near universal.
[00:56] <trn> It's like the Internet for truckers and truck stops and off-roaders and weirdos
[00:57] <trn> russss: you can also still run ahead or behind the big trucks to warn of speed traps or get warnings
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[00:59] <russss> yeah, I don't think it gets used at all in the UK, but tbh I haven't listened in ages
[01:00] <trn> I've got an old lifted 250 that has the radios in it. I just use a little icom ht on 2m everywhere else
[01:00] <russss> I don't tend to drive anywhere anyway, I live in London so it's rarely necessary :)
[01:00] <trn> I'm in south Florida.
[01:01] <trn> More open space than most people realize. Except it is all swaps and Everglades
[01:01] <trn> russss: we have gators in the canal right outside and everything :)
[01:02] <trn> noting their failure to control the duck population, they don't bother me
[01:03] <russss> heh
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[01:08] <mbales> and im back
[01:09] <trn> I just hope we don't blow ourselves up on the next launch
[01:10] <trn> We have a buddy who gets essentially free hydrogen from work (and nitrogen and some other random stuff)
[01:11] <Evidlo> Natural gas balloon
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[01:14] <trn> works in a metal shop and they have all sorts of gases used in welding
[01:14] <mbales> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQvpK9cl0No
[01:14] <trn> they closely guard the helium and argon but will give away hydrogen and nitrogen
[01:15] <Evidlo> If we replaced the atmosphere with argon, we could launch weather balloons with regular air
[01:15] <mbales> ive been paying $2.50 a cubic foot for helium
[01:15] <mbales> USD
[01:19] <trn> We are looking at about 300 cubic feet so that's $750 vs free :(
[01:19] <Evidlo> So what happens if a balloon catches?
[01:20] <trn> i guess see video above
[01:20] <Evidlo> That's pretty gentle
[01:21] <trn> more excitingly I wonder how quickly the hydrogen will dissipate
[01:21] <russss> yeah, it's not an explosive mixture. You could stand next to it and be pretty fine.
[01:21] <trn> we start the rocket launch as soon as the balloon bursts.
[01:21] <Evidlo> You're building a rockoon, too?
[01:22] <trn> we successfully made a little one with a model rocket and a mini balloon
[01:23] <trn> So now we want to scale it up
[01:23] <russss> how do you stabilise it if it's launching after burst?
[01:25] <trn> it's all pretty much instant but we use a little sensor board on the platform that blocks the launch until it's at the correct attitude
[01:26] <trn> And as soon as the balloon bursts it activates the launch
[01:27] <trn> It could in fact not launch at all
[01:28] <mbales> very interesting
[01:28] <trn> It times out after a specified amount of time too, so it won't launch while falling
[01:28] <mbales> any images of the electronics?
[01:28] <trn> I just set it to 10s for safety but it shouldn't need to be more than 1 or 2 I guess
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[01:28] <trn> I can get some this weekend
[01:29] <mbales> very cool
[01:29] <mbales> sounds like a fun project
[01:30] <trn> We are using a original rpi, a few gpio sensors and gizmos
[01:31] <trn> Running on plain Linux and wrote the code in ksh and C
[01:31] <mbales> so must be a decent sized payload then
[01:32] <trn> we used a lightweight white styrofoam mini cooler thingy as a case
[01:32] <Evidlo> why ksh
[01:32] <trn> evidlo: it's what I know and most Linux systems have bash which is mostly compatible
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[01:33] <Evidlo> How on earth did you learn ksh over bash?
[01:33] <trn> I'll probably look at a gumstix board if I can get rtems on one
[01:33] <trn> For the rocket
[01:33] <mbales> gumstix are silly expensive
[01:33] <trn> evidlo: I hate Linux honestly. But I'm old.
[01:34] <trn> Evidlo: my first operating system was tops-10
[01:34] <trn> And I still prefer VMS to UNIX.
[01:34] Action: Evidlo looks up tops 10
[01:35] <trn> I still have my original kaypro with CP/M on it too somewhere
[01:35] <trn> Anyway Linux is "new" stuff still
[01:36] <trn> But back in the day you could always depend on ksh and even dtksh being everywhere and its a real published standard.
[01:37] <trn> It would be on all your dgux sunos aix whatever machines
[01:37] <mbales> what about an intel edison?
[01:37] <Evidlo> Maybe if you wanted to give your balloon a personality
[01:37] <trn> I've not looked into those.
[01:38] <mbales> much less than a gumstix
[01:38] <Evidlo> Why would you want that kind of compute power on a balloon?
[01:38] <trn> But for adding a computer to the rocket, I think balancing it and size would be most important
[01:38] <trn> Evidlo: mainly to launch the rocket
[01:38] <mbales> and for programming in bash it sounds like
[01:39] <trn> For the rocket itself any compute power is a luxury
[01:39] <trn> I'd use freertos or rtems there
[01:39] <Evidlo> Isn't the edison way more powerful than the pi? Why do you need so much power to look at accelerometer data?
[01:42] <trn> I'm not familiar with the Edison but a simple AVR could work for me. But the original pi was free because we somehow have a bunch of them between us
[01:42] <trn> so we do all sorts of extra stuff simply because there is power to spare
[01:42] <trn> Hence the cellular questions which started this :)
[01:43] <Evidlo> What kind of radio are you using?
[01:44] <trn> just a homebrew beacon now
[01:45] <Evidlo> It's all custom?
[01:45] <trn> it was a kit from somewhere lying around
[01:46] <trn> I'd call it scavenged rather than custom
[01:47] <trn> I have a GPRS usb stick here
[01:49] <Evidlo> I'm trying to find a decent FM transmitter module
[01:49] <trn> It just clicked that rather than collecting dust in my old netbook we can try to use it on our next project :)
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[01:52] <Ian_> When scripting on Unix boxes, then Bourne Shell was the way to go. The reason being that KSH and other shells were not consistent between batch and interactive modes, so scripts had a nasty tendency to go awry \
[01:52] <Ian_> The behaviour when tested interactively wasn't the same as when run as a script.
[01:52] <Ian_> Sad, but true
[01:53] <trn> Ian: back when I had CDE everywhere I used dtksh but beyond that I never used ksh interactively
[01:54] <trn> Nor did I ever get to use bash, went right to zsh while still using CDE on sunos :p
[01:54] <Ian_> dt ksh is that desk top ksh?
[01:55] <trn> ksh post 88 pre 93 with Xm extensions to access Motif
[01:55] <trn> but your acronym extension is correct
[01:55] <Ian_> I was an Ingres application programmer. SunOS/Solaris.
[01:56] <trn> I have sunos 4 sources someplace on tape still
[01:56] <Ian_> Did a bit of NAWK. That's probably sad, the sources . . .
[01:57] <Evidlo> gawk
[01:57] Action: trn eyes an SS2 in the closet
[01:57] <trn> mawk forever
[01:58] <Ian_> Solaris had AWK, severely crippled so NAWK was it. GAWK wasn't available. Never heard of MAWK
[01:58] <Ian_> Not Microsoft AWK?
[01:58] <trn> oh no :)
[01:58] <trn> http://invisible-island.net/mawk/mawk.html
[01:59] <Ian_> Arghhh! On that thought, it's 0300 local here, so I'm for bed - Gn!
[01:59] <trn> Gnite
[02:01] <Evidlo> the dark days, Before GNU (BG)
[02:01] <Evidlo> trn: do you know of any radio modules
[02:02] <Evidlo> ham
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[02:47] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03CX2SC-11 after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CX2SC-11
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[09:22] <x-f> https://twitter.com/SurreyPolice/status/656711605711826945
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[09:32] <mfa298> x-f: nice
[09:33] <mfa298> and happy bttf day to everyone, although wheres my hoverboard
[09:33] <x-f> heh, i asked the same question :)
[09:35] <craag> https://twitter.com/DriverPotter/status/656739328253644800
[09:36] <x-f> :)
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[09:42] <gonzo__> All I can say is "Great Scott!"
[09:50] <SpeedEvil> https://twitter.com/50NerdsofGrey/status/656728763896434688
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[11:26] <Laurenceb> anyone here ever soldered to nichrome wire?
[11:27] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Use a crimp ? when it gets hot solder might melt ?
[11:29] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Think you might need a solder with Silver content for higher temperature and a acid based flux otherwise.
[11:29] <Laurenceb> got it with plumbing flux thanks
[11:37] <Laurenceb> well amazingly that worked
[11:37] <Laurenceb> ignited a match with a supercap
[11:38] <Laurenceb> looks like it only took ~50ms too
[11:45] <Ian_> That has to be a win then and not too exotic.
[11:47] <Ian_> trn I missed your reference to tops10 last night. It was my first OS too on a KI-1070 at the DADPTC at Blandford back in 1983
[11:48] <Ian_> RiP DEC
[11:56] <eroomde> i solder to nichrome fairly often
[11:57] <gonzo__> Blandford Forum?
[11:59] <murb> isn't that a flanders and swann song?
[12:00] <gonzo__> could be. BVut also a town pretty near here.
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[12:00] <Laurenceb> looks like its a question of the right flux
[12:00] <Laurenceb> this is still very goofy
[12:01] <Laurenceb> I'm going to send out some emails and see if anyone can ship me some decent igniters from the US
[12:11] <Laurenceb> in a way this is quite impressive - ~100mJ firing energy
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[14:41] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KM4MRH-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KM4MRH-11
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[14:57] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03EOS_T2 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=EOS_T2
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[15:10] <Herman-PB0AHX> !flights
[15:10] <SpacenearUS> 03Herman-PB0AHX: There are no flights currently :(
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[15:46] <eroomde> scientific study - if you go to any youtube performance of Mahler 6, the top comment will always be a link to the Thor's Hammer percussion cameo
[15:53] <eroomde> this is the hammer in question + its effect on the rest of the orchestra http://i.imgur.com/bZcRPFL.jpg
[15:55] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Wow and that's a musical instrument he uses ?
[15:55] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC9PON-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC9PON-11
[15:55] <Oddstr13> nice, that looks like an instrument even I can play.
[16:01] <eroomde> yeah i'd like to have my LSO cameo with such a thingthing
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[17:44] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[18:02] <kc2pit> Evidlo: Not sure exactly what you're looking for in terms of radio modules, but there's a line of Chinese modules with basically the guts of a Baofeng 1W HT in them. Search for DRA818 or SA818, with a V or U on the end. A friend of mine is working on an APRS tracker built around them, but I don't think that project has moved lately.
[18:04] <chris_99> cool, they look interesting
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[20:44] <Lauenceb_> hi, calling ubuntu gurus
[20:45] <Lauenceb_> #ubuntu is hopeless
[20:45] <craag> You need 'R'
[20:45] <Lauenceb_> nohup metacity --replace --display=0 &
[20:45] <Lauenceb_> isnt fixing my broken display, any ideas?
[20:45] <chris_99> are you using Unity?
[20:46] <Lauenceb_> I dont think so
[20:46] <Lauenceb_> no
[20:46] <Lauenceb_> this is a very old unupdated machine
[20:46] <Lauenceb_> I used to be able to fix it using that command iirc
[20:46] <Lauenceb_> but its not doing anything for me :-/
[20:46] <chris_99> ah, was gonna say Unity seems to always break for me, i use xfce instead now
[20:47] <eroomde> same
[20:47] <eroomde> put xubuntu on my thinkpad and have been hapier
[20:47] <Lauenceb_> interesting
[20:48] <Lauenceb_> atm I'm just typing in random nonsense in the hope it will function :-/
[20:48] <craag> +1 for xubuntu
[20:48] <Lauenceb_> maybe I need to restart metacity
[20:49] <Lauenceb_> however one might do that...
[20:51] <Lauenceb_> sometimes linux makes me feel like a nuke went off inside my head
[20:51] <Lauenceb_> maybe I should keep a notebook filled with arcane commands to fix everything
[20:52] <Lauenceb_> holy shit
[20:53] <Lunar_Lander> I like xubuntu too
[20:53] <Lauenceb_> I think I was missing a : before 0
[20:53] <Lauenceb_> see wht i mean
[20:53] <Lauenceb_> yes, fixed
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[20:53] <Ian_> You mean 'xterm -display :0.0'
[20:54] <Ian_> It's powerful, no one said it might also be easy . . . probably for good reason!
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[21:09] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03ARY1 after 032 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ARY1
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[21:29] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ary1_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ary1_chase
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[22:14] <mbales_> hadnt seen that mahler hammer bit, pretty goodd
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[22:50] <craag> Anybody know what the ETA of the airspy r2 is to distributors?
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[23:02] <michal_f> first batch is already sold out ?
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[23:42] <Ian_> prog is likely the man in the know
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[00:00] --- Thu Oct 22 2015