highaltitude.log.20151013

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[02:15] <BeaverOne> what balloons do you all use?
[02:29] <SpeedEvil> http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html
[02:29] <SpeedEvil> amongst others
[02:30] <SpeedEvil> both commercial large 'party' balloons, and meterological ones mainly
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[02:32] <deepdesigns> trying to find a ham operator in austin is harder than I anticipated
[02:32] <deepdesigns> :|
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[02:55] <BeaverOne> SpeedEvil: Totex?
[02:56] <SpeedEvil> all of the ones ont hat page have been used
[02:58] <BeaverOne> oh, what are your thoughts on pre-used balloons?
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[03:12] <SpeedEvil> Don't.
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[08:43] <eroomde> morning MikeUoN
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[08:46] <eroomde> must be something i said
[08:46] <fab4space> has anyone used this gps+32bit microcontroller board as a hab tracker ? : http://navspark.mybigcommerce.com/navspark-mini-uart-to-usb-adapter/
[08:46] <fab4space> it provides SPI , 1Mb flash and 212kb RAM, 100Mhz CPU
[08:46] <fab4space> Operating range : (altitude < 18km) or (speed < 515m/sec), both not exceeded simultaneously
[08:47] <craag> I think chrisstubbs has
[08:47] <fab4space> arduino compatible IDE
[08:47] <craag> iirc gps performance wasn't impressive
[08:47] <craag> And the mcu is massively overpowered for just a tracker
[08:48] <fab4space> yes but the cost is 6$ and 7*7mm size
[08:49] <fab4space> for cheap floaters it can be a good solution?
[08:49] <eroomde> you still need the radio stuff
[08:49] <eroomde> as a separate PCB in this case
[08:49] <fab4space> yes
[08:50] <eroomde> so i think most people would design their own pcb that would be smaller anyway
[08:50] <eroomde> that included everything
[08:51] <craag> It's also likely to be power hungry
[08:53] <craag> richardeoin: Is UBSEDS11 enabled for aprs over spain?
[08:54] <Oddstr13> I should do something with my navsparks.
[08:56] <Oddstr13> what do you guys recommend when it comes to cheap GPS modules? price and power usage being the most important aspects I guess
[08:57] <eroomde> ublox8
[08:57] <Oddstr13> no need for something that handles high altitude or high speed
[08:57] <craag> max-m8c is the easiest solution
[08:57] <craag> as it's a module
[08:57] <eroomde> http://www.telit.com/products/product-service-selector/product-service-selector/show/product/jupiter-se880/
[08:57] <craag> jupiter se880 is a nice ic solution
[08:57] <craag> snap ;)
[08:57] <eroomde> if you don't need altitude I've always thought that that part looks interesting
[08:58] <craag> MikeUoN is planning to use that
[08:58] <eroomde> nice
[08:59] <eroomde> the RS website is so bad
[08:59] <Oddstr13> thinking of making an alternative to this; http://www.findmysheep.com/en/products
[09:00] <craag> what satellite data solution are you looking at?
[09:00] <Oddstr13> none :P
[09:00] <eroomde> mesh the sheep?
[09:00] <craag> not gsm I hope.. :P
[09:00] <Oddstr13> cows, but, yea, something like that
[09:01] <Oddstr13> ukhasnet simmilar
[09:01] <craag> heh IoS
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[09:01] <eroomde> the telit module is probably a good bet for such a thing
[09:01] <craag> Internet of Sheep
[09:01] <eroomde> i got it
[09:01] <Oddstr13> gsm ones allready exist, but coverage is poor
[09:01] <craag> yeah
[09:01] <eroomde> not that you're especially mass sensitive for cows but you could make this ultra small
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[09:01] <Oddstr13> thing is, coverage is poor for the satellite data too
[09:02] <eroomde> where are you?
[09:02] <eroomde> somewhere mountainous?
[09:02] <Oddstr13> the bell is kinda designed to hang under the neck of the animals. guess what the satellite performance is like.
[09:02] <Oddstr13> mountains & forest
[09:02] <craag> The problem with ukhasnet itself for that application currently is the high rx current
[09:02] <Oddstr13> yea, probably
[09:03] <craag> I'd dive straight in to a 6lowpan solution
[09:03] <craag> they're optimised for low-power mesh
[09:03] <craag> and then each of the livestock can have a v6 address \o/
[09:03] <Oddstr13> not saying I'd use ukhasnet, but I'd like something I can use RTL-SDR to receive.
[09:03] <craag> and it'll solve world poverty and all :D
[09:04] <craag> Ok
[09:04] <craag> you could forget the meshing
[09:04] <craag> just have each as a 'sensor' and a gateway up a mast/tree/building somewhere
[09:04] <Oddstr13> I'd have to set up quite a few base stations
[09:04] <craag> *have a gateway
[09:04] <Oddstr13> they are roaming over a quite large area
[09:05] <craag> proper low power mesh takes you out of rtlsdr hobby stuff and into optimised 802.15.4 ICs
[09:05] <Oddstr13> JP52aq, the animals are roaming over the whole alley here, up to the big water magazine, and down to the railroad and main roads
[09:06] <Oddstr13> the findmysheep bells are expensive, and they transmitt once every 12h, *if* they have satellite coverage
[09:06] <craag> also mesh is never going to be 100% reliable, if the animals split into groups
[09:06] <eroomde> i like the idea of a moosh network
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[09:07] <gonzo_> that's the udder way of doing it
[09:07] <daveake> I liked that idea of using vultures as repeaters
[09:07] <Oddstr13> you can program the interval, but more often uses more power, and you get a set number of messages, after that you have to pay extra
[09:07] <craag> I'd do ukhasnet sensors with as many gateways as I could, and then maybe some remot solar-powered repeaters around too to fill in
[09:08] <eroomde> that's a good idea
[09:08] <eroomde> oh points of high ground
[09:08] <craag> aye
[09:08] <Oddstr13> I'm wondering how much power collection I would be able to do on the animal units
[09:08] <craag> I wouldn't bother with that
[09:08] <craag> keep per unit cost low
[09:09] <Oddstr13> recharging would also be a factow
[09:09] <Oddstr13> factor*
[09:09] <craag> mattbrejza has got a really cheap ukhasnet tx-only
[09:09] <craag> how many sensor units would you have?
[09:10] <gonzo_> do they come back to any central point to be milked/fed?
[09:10] <Oddstr13> the rfm69 modules are cheap, and so is the AVRs
[09:10] <Oddstr13> gonzo_: the ones getting milked are fenced in
[09:10] <craag> stm32f0+si_thingy even cheaper
[09:10] <eroomde> linky
[09:10] <Oddstr13> they do have salt rocks they visit sometimes, but not too often
[09:10] <eroomde> oh sorry
[09:10] <eroomde> 2 separate chips
[09:10] <craag> yeah
[09:11] <Oddstr13> we are talking about competing with a product that corst 2k NOK here.
[09:12] <craag> how many sensor units are you talking?
[09:12] <Oddstr13> currently we have 4 of the findmysheep ones, I think
[09:12] <eroomde> that's about £200?
[09:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VK5QI_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VK5QI_chase
[09:12] <craag> Ok, how many of these 'cheap' sensor units would you ideally want?
[09:13] <Oddstr13> $250, £160 at todays rates
[09:13] <eroomde> because £200 is actually very little for something like this
[09:13] <craag> yeah £160 is v good for a satellite tracker
[09:13] <Oddstr13> well, if I can get it working reliably, I don't doubt 20-30 pcs or something
[09:13] <eroomde> i mean, i wouldn't try and make a product to actually earn money for that price point unless i was going to sell thousands
[09:13] <eroomde> you'd never make back the development and testing costs
[09:14] <craag> This is just for personal use rather than selling?
[09:14] <Oddstr13> this is for personal use, first and foremost
[09:14] <craag> k
[09:14] <Oddstr13> the satellite solution seems like a poor choice for this terrain
[09:15] <craag> It'd be cool to see how ukhasnet performed
[09:15] <craag> Have you got some pics of the terrain?
[09:16] <Oddstr13> a few
[09:16] <Oddstr13> https://oddstr13.openshell.no/gallery/image/91/
[09:16] <Oddstr13> https://oddstr13.openshell.no/gallery/image/89/
[09:16] <craag> wow
[09:17] <craag> How big is the area you're trying to cover?
[09:17] <eroomde> quite a nice place to do engineering
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[09:18] <Oddstr13> yea, only downside is that there are no hackerspaces or ham clubs nearby
[09:19] <Oddstr13> https://www.google.no/maps/@62.645213,10.0671785,11z?hl=en
[09:19] <eroomde> the lack of local hackerspace needn't be a big problem
[09:19] <Oddstr13> Innset <-> Innerdalsvatnet (the water)
[09:19] <eroomde> just an excuse to get your own home lab
[09:19] <Oddstr13> eroomde: true, but I'd love to have someone to work with in meatspace
[09:19] <Laurenceb> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/skarp/the-skarp-laser-razor-21st-century-shaving?ref=nav_search
[09:20] <Oddstr13> the animals also strife towards the railroad that goes along E6
[09:21] <craag> That would be a hefty challenge with terrestrial comms
[09:21] <Oddstr13> yea..
[09:21] <craag> animal mesh is never going to work - too sparse with the radios too low
[09:22] <Oddstr13> indeed
[09:22] <Oddstr13> the animals do tend to go in groups
[09:22] <Oddstr13> 2-3 groups
[09:22] <craag> If you want a challenge, you could try ukhasnet, or even your own version with lora modules for more link budget maybe.
[09:22] <craag> But it would be quite some engineering to have reliable coverage
[09:23] <craag> probably a lot of repeaters
[09:23] <eroomde> you need a robotic airship
[09:23] <craag> ^^ that
[09:23] <daveake> vultures :p
[09:23] <eroomde> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K29dn0Mzspk
[09:23] <eroomde> send it down the valley once a day
[09:24] <Oddstr13> well, if I'd be able to go point an antenna at them when I needed to know where they where, and in addition know in which general area they are located, that would help quite a bit
[09:25] <eroomde> if they're almost all within a valley you could point a yagi down the valley from one end
[09:25] <Oddstr13> oh my, I'd love one of those ballons
[09:25] <craag> Hmm I wonder how well low-bitrate HF could work
[09:26] <Oddstr13> stuff like dominoex?
[09:26] <craag> or just slow fsk
[09:27] <Oddstr13> I have a few of those cheap 434 MHz ook modules. I wonder what the range of them actually is
[09:27] <craag> Might be worth making up a few radio transmitters of different types, strapping them to a few animals, and see what range you get from each
[09:27] <Oddstr13> yea
[09:28] <Oddstr13> the season is mostly over now tho, I think all the animals are fenced in around home here now
[09:28] <craag> HF might bounce around off valley sides and bend over hills..
[09:28] <eroomde> ook is rubbish usually
[09:28] <craag> Plenty of time to get ready for next season then ;)
[09:28] <Oddstr13> eroomde: oh, they're rubbish alright
[09:29] <Oddstr13> they're like a dusin a dime kinda priced
[09:29] <eroomde> there must be loads of norwegian funding for stuff
[09:29] <craag> It'd be cool to have a ukhasnet weather sensor network anyway ;)
[09:29] <eroomde> get yourself a blimp :)
[09:29] <Oddstr13> I want a blimp with lidar.
[09:30] <eroomde> so buy one
[09:30] <Oddstr13> haha
[09:30] <Oddstr13> don't have the cash
[09:30] <eroomde> that's what i mean - there must be funding from the norwegian government
[09:30] <Oddstr13> the lidar stuff is like $100k from what I've seen
[09:30] <eroomde> they're ul;tra rich
[09:31] <Oddstr13> oh, there is, they are allready mapping the whole country with lidar
[09:31] <gonzo_> if bit's ground based, there are propably more higher powerfreq allocations you can use
[09:31] <eroomde> you have a huge oil and fish reserve and the entire population of norway would fit into one apartment block in london
[09:31] <Oddstr13> eroomde: about that oil...
[09:31] <gonzo_> but they would have far too much sense to go to london
[09:31] <Oddstr13> we're screwed cause we're too dependent on it ._.
[09:32] <eroomde> so invest in people to try other things
[09:32] <Oddstr13> the country as a whole should've done that 5y ago
[09:32] <Oddstr13> now we're getting hit rather hard by the low oil prices
[09:33] <Oddstr13> http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=NOK&view=5Y
[09:33] <Oddstr13> http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=NOK&view=5Y
[09:33] <eroomde> ha
[09:33] <eroomde> finally affordable to visit!
[09:33] <eroomde> i went in 2010 and it was pricey
[09:34] <Oddstr13> you're welcome to come visit :P
[09:34] <gonzo_> what;s the price of living there? What would you get for.... 100Krone?
[09:34] <daveake> a beer
[09:35] <gonzo_> So about £8/pt !
[09:35] <daveake> damn
[09:35] <daveake> ok half a beer
[09:35] <gonzo_> I'd want scotch for that
[09:35] <Oddstr13> a loaf of bread costs around 20-40 NOK typicaly
[09:35] <gonzo_> Agh, not even sure I'd pay £8 for a half pt co scotch
[09:35] <daveake> I once made the mistake of parking overnight in Oslo
[09:36] <Oddstr13> ouch
[09:36] <eroomde> £8 was cheap when i was there
[09:36] <eroomde> my beer in Tromso was about £11
[09:36] <eroomde> my burder was about £20
[09:37] <Oddstr13> generaly speaking, I'd say you'll get about a bag of chips(150-300g) and a 1.5l bottle of soda for about 50 NOK
[09:37] <eroomde> burger*
[09:37] <Oddstr13> I don't drink alcohol, so can't really comment on the beer prices
[09:37] <eroomde> the only other place that made me frightened like that was Davos, where that blimp video was made, but i could expense that trip
[09:38] <eroomde> the beer prices are huge
[09:38] <eroomde> scandinavian countries are weird about alcohol
[09:38] <eroomde> well, sweden and norway at least
[09:38] <gonzo_> are beer proces artificially high, or just on par with everythinmg?
[09:38] <Oddstr13> depends on the type of alcohol I guess :P
[09:39] <Oddstr13> burning alcohol isn't expensive I'd say
[09:39] <eroomde> they tax the shit out of important alcohol
[09:39] <eroomde> like the uk does with cigarettes
[09:39] <Oddstr13> oh, there is a monopoly on wine
[09:39] <eroomde> and you can only buy it from a sort of state-approved monopoly outlet
[09:39] <gonzo_> I can see the point with tobacco
[09:39] <eroomde> systembolegat in sweden, i forget the name in norway
[09:39] <Oddstr13> and for spirits over a certain percentage I think
[09:40] <gonzo_> is home brewing beer/wine legal over theer?
[09:40] <Oddstr13> general beer you can get in any food store
[09:40] <eroomde> no
[09:40] <eroomde> and infact because alcohol is so expensive, home-still fires and explosions are an actual thing
[09:40] <gonzo_> I bet there is a lot that goes on thoug
[09:40] <eroomde> there were about 3 in upsalla whilst i was there
[09:41] <Oddstr13> beer, I'd say you're allowed to brew that, yes
[09:41] <eroomde> people's attics just exploding
[09:41] <gonzo_> hehe, I bet
[09:41] <gonzo_> I'm not sure on the legality of running a still in the UK
[09:41] <Oddstr13> owning a still is not legal without permission from the police
[09:41] <eroomde> yeah the explosions were moonshine rather than beer, obv
[09:42] <daveake> aiui, another result is that people are already pissed when they go out for a night
[09:42] <gonzo_> I think small/private consumption is sort fo overlooked
[09:42] <eroomde> the pubs i went to in tromso had very restricted licensing hours
[09:42] <eroomde> like 4hrs a day
[09:42] <gonzo_> that is pretty much the case in nightclubs here too dave
[09:42] <daveake> :)
[09:42] <daveake> me old me forget
[09:42] <eroomde> yes - prelash
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[09:43] <Oddstr13> there are actually quite a few small scale beer brewerys in norway
[09:43] <gonzo_> and the resaon that lads buy expensive bottled beer, is that no-one can see that you are not actually drinking it
[09:43] <gonzo_> (or filling it from the tap in the bog)
[09:44] <gonzo_> I was at a beer fest at the weekend. There are a pleasing nukber of micro breweries in just this area
[09:44] <eroomde> i really liked the local norwegian beers i tried
[09:44] <gonzo_> I did my best to suppoort them, in the time I had)
[09:44] <eroomde> the arctic lager in tromso was so crisp and delicious i still have ahppy thoughts about it
[09:47] <Oddstr13> I've got like 10+ of these lying around :P http://www.focalprice.com/CX0240G/433Mhz_RF_Transmitter_Receiver_Kit_for_Arduino_ARM_WL_MCU_Raspberry_Pi_New.html
[09:47] <craag> ewww
[09:47] <craag> yeah don't bother with those
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[09:48] <Oddstr13> it was kindasorta working with the radiohead library, but when I tried to do bidirectional data it didn't work
[09:48] <Oddstr13> I suspect the automatic gain on the receiver screwed up
[09:49] <Oddstr13> I havn't tried these exact modules yet, but something simmilar
[09:49] <craag> Yeah they're OOK (or at least ASK)
[09:50] <craag> Easy, cheap, but won't have the range of better modules.
[09:50] <Oddstr13> actually, the transmitter is fsk
[09:50] <Oddstr13> varying the voltage on the pin changes frequency
[09:50] <craag> Not on the one you linked
[09:51] <Oddstr13> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10534 this one does atleast.
[09:52] <eroomde> you could use that for hellshreiber or soemthing else fun like that
[09:52] <Oddstr13> it however isn't frequency stable, so it'll drift a lot from you moving around
[09:52] <eroomde> the biggest middle finger to redundancy in the history of communication
[09:52] <Oddstr13> haha, yea
[09:53] <Oddstr13> I was suprised by the range I got from those modules actually
[09:54] <Oddstr13> 50m< thru several walls
[09:55] <Oddstr13> but, yea, I'll get myself some RFM69HW modules
[09:58] <craag> Might be worth trying 434 and 868
[09:58] <craag> See how well each cope with the vegetation
[09:58] <Oddstr13> I guess
[09:59] <Oddstr13> I'll try them out with ukhasnet for my planned weather station too
[09:59] <craag> :D
[10:00] <craag> It's a large and awesome engineering challenge you've got there Oddstr13 , I'm very interested to see what you come up with
[10:01] <Oddstr13> I should make a directional antenna for 434 MHz, so I can try to pinpoint where all the OOK signals are coming from
[10:01] <Oddstr13> I'm seeing quite a few signals, many of them rather strong
[10:02] <Oddstr13> and the only thing I know of hearby, that maybe uses that, is the neighbors comercial weather station
[10:03] <Oddstr13> I don't know of anything at the farm that is transmitting on 434 MHz
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[11:17] <chris_99> https://environmentagency.blog.gov.uk/2015/09/18/laser-surveys-light-up-open-data/ is very cool
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[12:08] <eroomde> chris_99: brill
[12:09] <chris_99> I'm curious how they generated it
[12:13] <Laurenceb> what the heck
[12:13] <Laurenceb> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/12/nearly_perfect_loon_balloons_courting_african_carriers/
[12:13] <Laurenceb> so they made the all optical backhaul work...
[12:13] Action: Laurenceb doubts that
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[12:17] <Laurenceb> I'd use 24Ghz ISM band
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[12:27] <Zuph> Laurenceb: That doesn't sound like the kind of thinking that keeps lots of young engineers in Mountain View employed in perpetuity.
[12:27] <Laurenceb> heh
[12:28] <Laurenceb> problem with optical is although there is little attenuation at altitude, the sky is really bright
[12:28] <chris_99> the google balloons aren't tethered are they?
[12:28] <Laurenceb> no, dont read the comment on that site
[12:29] <Laurenceb> even more stupid than LOHAN
[12:29] <chris_99> heh, so, i'm wondering, how do they keep them in a fairly stationary postion
[12:29] <Laurenceb> they dont
[12:29] <Laurenceb> they have a mesh network
[12:29] <Zuph> It's also a pointing problem. Two 6dof motion platforms getting knocked around trying to point super-precisely at eachother.
[12:29] <Laurenceb> hence the backhaul
[12:29] <Laurenceb> yeah
[12:29] <chris_99> ahh, neat
[12:30] <Laurenceb> neat if they can make it work
[12:30] <chris_99> mmm
[12:30] <chris_99> is there any reason you couldn't tether a balloon for this, or would that be monumentally stupid
[12:30] <Laurenceb> but I think the problem has already been solved with microwave backhaul
[12:30] <SpeedEvil> For comms at least, you can easily make the background 10^-3 times brighter with readily available filters.
[12:30] <Laurenceb> the tether would be in the way of balloons
[12:31] <SpeedEvil> err
[12:31] <SpeedEvil> Dimmer.
[12:31] <SpeedEvil> You could make it brighter if you really wanted. :)
[12:31] <Laurenceb> s/ballons/planes
[12:31] <chris_99> oh yeah, doh
[12:31] <SpeedEvil> You 'can't do a balloon, as it gets blown sideways too much.
[12:31] <SpeedEvil> You at teh very least need a powered blimp.
[12:32] <SpeedEvil> In principle, that's quite doable, but can get exciting.
[12:32] <Zuph> Nevermind the issues with property rights and access that Goog is trying to avoid by just flying over these rural developing nations.
[12:32] <SpeedEvil> That too, yes.
[12:33] Nick change: michal_f|AFK -> michal_f
[12:33] <Laurenceb> they do fly very high
[12:33] <Laurenceb> ideally above controlled airspace
[12:33] <michal_f> what's the diameter of Hwoyee1200 after inflation (ground level) ?
[12:33] <Laurenceb> 1 to 2 meters
[12:34] <SpeedEvil> michal_f: the cross section / density of air remains a constant.
[12:34] <SpeedEvil> (pretty much) for latex balloons all the way up to just before burst. This is why they ascend at a constnat speed
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[13:00] <michal_f> SpeedEvil: thanks !
[13:03] <garymortimer> anyone used the moteinos with LoRa?
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[13:52] <tweetBot> @TrendTradeTech: #FPSBS #tweetinUK #ukbIZ #BizAds #fashion #ultimate #luxury Jaeger #dress http://t.co/oQdpTpSyMa #UKSOPRO #UKHas& http://t.co/k218yZB3CH
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[15:03] <arjunnaha> Have to cancel launch tomorrow, I'll update on groups.
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[15:19] <DJ0FET> Hello folks! The stratoBeagle team from Regensburg, Germany is doing another launch tomorrow. Can you please approve flight document 9f25b419191dfb1c880fc7c9163ccd33 ?
[15:19] <arjunnaha> I was told this morning that I had to let the Lea know and the process takes 2 weeks :-(
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[15:33] <deepdesigns> just got approved for first flight :D
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[15:37] <arjunnaha> DJ0FET: If you post your flight doc in the # habhub channel, one of the admins will approve it when they see it
[15:37] <DJ0FET> Okay thanks arjunnaha :)
[15:38] <arjunnaha> Np :)
[15:43] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CALLSIGN123_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CALLSIGN123_chase
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[15:48] <craag> arjunnaha: Lea?
[15:48] <michemto> Yo people.. Anyone living in Manchester?
[15:49] <arjunnaha> craag: "Local Education Authority", otherwise known as the council
[15:49] <craag> eurgh :/
[15:49] <adamgreig> odd
[15:49] <adamgreig> who said you had to tell them?
[15:50] <arjunnaha> School: "We have to inform the LEA if we do any schools trips".
[15:51] <arjunnaha> Stupid, I told them 2 months ago
[15:51] <adamgreig> ah, right
[15:51] <arjunnaha> And I have to get another teacher for "Health and Safety"
[15:51] <arjunnaha> Do you know how much cover teachers cost?
[15:51] <michal_f> !flights
[15:51] <SpacenearUS> 03michal_f: There are no flights currently :(
[15:52] <arjunnaha> £175 FOR A DAY!
[15:52] <day> yeayyy
[15:52] <arjunnaha> Ridiculous
[15:52] <day> im not cheap!
[15:52] <day> but im worth every penny!
[15:54] <eroomde> not actually ridiculous for a professional for a day
[15:54] <eroomde> quite cheap really
[15:54] <day> even our technicians costs 1k/day :x
[15:54] <eroomde> but, doing all this as a school project does add about 10x more overhead than is necessary as we discussed
[15:54] <eroomde> nevermind
[15:55] <UpuWork> £175 ? thats not much a locum vet is £250 a day
[15:56] <UpuWork> michemto I'm in Halifax
[15:56] <UpuWork> and now afk bbl
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[16:04] <michemto> anyway... coming to Manchester and I'd love to have some advices what to do, where to do :)
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[16:23] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 0300000_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=00000_chase
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[16:37] <arjunnaha> It's the agency staff that cost a fourtune
[16:38] <arjunnaha> So school hired me instead
[16:38] <arjunnaha> no pay might I add ;-(
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[16:38] <arjunnaha> *For IT tech shelp
[16:38] <arjunnaha> *help
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[16:59] <garymortimer> evening all, stupidly hot in this part of Africa. I know you should expect it being Africa and all. Anyhoo earlier before my web fell over I asked if anyone had tried LoRA moteinos
[17:00] <mattbrejza> moteinos sounds like a brand of mint sweets
[17:00] <garymortimer> https://lowpowerlab.com/moteino/#lora
[17:00] <mattbrejza> lol yea i assumed otherwise
[17:01] <garymortimer> Looks quite neat if it would work as a tracker
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[17:10] <BeaverOne> anyone have experience with the Arduino GSM Shield ? I am wondering do you have to write logic to handle signal loss and make it re-initialize ?
[17:12] <deepdesigns> Never worked with GSM, but I would assume, based on my arduino experience, that you would need to handle that
[17:12] <deepdesigns> especially in specific cases
[17:15] <deepdesigns> what model number is your shield?
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[17:16] <craag> Yes you do need to write the logic
[17:16] <deepdesigns> I would be surprised if there wasn't a library for it already
[17:17] <craag> failure modes can vary from jsut having to re-init gprs, to havving to fully reset the module
[17:17] <craag> It wasn't fun to make reliable :/
[17:18] <SpeedEvil> Do not assume that you will be able to reliably get a signal on the way down.
[17:18] <SpeedEvil> Mobile towers have antennas that are very narrow horizontal beams.
[17:19] <SpeedEvil> This means that they can have really quite narrow ceilings, and signal in 'outdoor coverage' areas 10cm off the ground is much, much worse than coverage at 1.8m off the ground
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[17:44] <Lunar_Lander> RadSurfer> [Peter B. de Selding 11h: Arianespace CEO: We may need micro-launcher for growing 50-300kg smallsat market. No formal proposal yet, but need consider it. #IAC2015]
[17:44] <Lunar_Lander> let's do it!
[17:44] <Lunar_Lander> :D
[17:45] <Lunar_Lander> hm
[17:45] <Lunar_Lander> something like Scout from back then
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[17:46] <Sirius-BE> Any links to that? We have the engines for that :-)
[17:46] <Lunar_Lander> :=
[17:46] <Lunar_Lander> good question, the bot in #space posted it
[17:46] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[17:47] <Sirius-BE> ok :-)
[17:47] andycamb (~andycamb@host86-165-184-89.range86-165.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[17:48] <Sirius-BE> Peter B. = Beter Beck from RocketLab?
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[17:55] <Lunar_Lander> good question, don't know
[17:55] <Lunar_Lander> sorry :(
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[17:58] <BeaverOne> deepdesigns: http://www.arduino.org/products/shields/5-arduino-shields/arduino-gsm-shield-2
[18:00] <deepdesigns> BeaverOne: did you look here? https://www.arduino.cc/en/Reference/GSM
[18:00] <BeaverOne> checking
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[18:02] <deepdesigns> I haven't looked into the library itself, but you do include classes for gsmAccess and sms
[18:02] <deepdesigns> I would *assume* there is signal handling there
[18:03] <deepdesigns> but I haven't looked :)
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[18:06] <BeaverOne> deepdesigns: https://www.arduino.cc/en/Reference/GSMBegin
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[18:10] <deepdesigns> nice, but if I were you, I would use that to create your own function to do your own checks
[18:11] <deepdesigns> depending on what you're doing
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[18:17] <michal_f> ping Upu
[18:18] <michal_f> are you there ? :)
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[18:45] <Upu> HI michal_f
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[18:53] <michal_f> hi upu
[18:53] <michal_f> these new 434 preMaps have no switch for power source ?
[18:56] <Upu> yeah don't need it
[18:56] <Upu> bias-t or USB
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[18:57] <michal_f> well suprise... I almost broke my hand trying to unscrew this new case :)
[18:57] <michal_f> new screws sucks
[18:57] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ok1rpl-11_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ok1rpl-11_chase
[18:57] <Upu> lol
[18:57] <michal_f> good I don't have to do this any more
[18:58] <michal_f> :]
[18:58] <Upu> actually thanks for reminding me need to bring in my cordless screw driver as I have 30 of those to do tommorrow :)
[18:59] <michal_f> plenty
[19:00] <Upu> yeah the new screws do have some bite but you shouldn't need to open it up
[19:01] <michal_f> btw. what kind of DC plug is mounted in the old one? I need to get a power supply for it
[19:01] <fsphil> dave jones proof
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[19:01] <Upu> Lumberg something
[19:02] <Upu> send me an email I'll dig it out for you tommorrow
[19:02] <Upu> needing the plug ?
[19:02] <michal_f> I'll get it, just need to know the size :)
[19:02] <Upu> Don't worry just mail me your order number I'll send you one
[19:02] <Upu> got spares
[19:03] <michal_f> I'll drive to the local store tomorrow. If they don't have them, I'll email you then - OK ?
[19:03] <Upu> sure
[19:03] <Upu> hang on I'll get details
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[19:04] <Oddstr13> would USB and LSB work for duplex on the same channel (think repeater uplink/downlink)
[19:05] <fsphil> on the same frequency? in theory yes, but probably not in practice
[19:05] <fsphil> same dial frequency*
[19:05] <Upu> michal_f http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/28869.pdf
[19:05] <fsphil> the receiver would be overloaded by the nearby strong signal
[19:06] <Oddstr13> presumably TX would kill RX sensitivity
[19:06] <fsphil> indeed
[19:06] <Oddstr13> and, yes, on the same channel
[19:06] <michal_f> ty Upu
[19:06] <Oddstr13> iirc, CB is single-channel only
[19:06] <fsphil> CB has 40 or 80 channels
[19:07] <fsphil> used to be 40 in the UK, later extended to 80
[19:07] <Oddstr13> yes, but you're not allowed to do uplink and downlink on different channels iirc
[19:08] <fsphil> not sure
[19:08] <fsphil> if there where rules, they're pretty sure to be ignored :)
[19:08] Nick change: michal_f -> michal_f-AFK
[19:09] <Oddstr13> there is a repeater on the commercial 2m security radio here, but I'm not quite sure of what the rules on usage is
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[19:10] <Oddstr13> so, it would've been cool with a repeater on the cb band, for general usage
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[19:11] <Oddstr13> how is audio quality on SSB compared to NFM?
[19:11] <fsphil> SSB never really sounds that good
[19:12] <fsphil> it works better with weak signals though
[19:12] <Oddstr13> would it be an ok tradeoff for higher transmitter power?
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[19:12] <fsphil> if you're just interested in sending voice, yeah
[19:13] <russss> I think SSB has a better power efficiency
[19:13] <russss> than FM
[19:13] <fsphil> yep
[19:13] <Oddstr13> primarly voice, yea
[19:13] <russss> although the main advantage is that it's lower-bandwidth
[19:13] <Oddstr13> but messing with packet radio of some kind would probably be fun too
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[19:14] <fsphil> I sent images over CB a long time ago :)
[19:14] <fsphil> not very far to be fair, just down the street
[19:14] <Oddstr13> Frekvensbåndet 26,96027,410 MHz med unntak av senterfrekvensene i båndet som fremgår av § 36 første ledd, tillates brukt med kanalseparasjon 10 kHz, og som beskrevet i standardene EN 300 135 og EN 300 433. For mobilradio (PR 27) med vinkelmodulasjon er maksimal tillatt utstrålt effekt 4 W e.r.p., for dobbel sidebåndmodulering er maksimal tillatt utstrålt effekt 4 W e.r.p. (målt som
[19:14] <Oddstr13> RMS-verdi) og for enkel sidebåndmodulering er maksimal tillatt utstrålt effekt 12 W e.r.p. (målt som maks-envelope-effekt).
[19:15] <Oddstr13> 4W for NFM, AM and DSB
[19:15] <Oddstr13> 12W for SSB
[19:17] <SA6BSS> Oddstr13: there is 2 repeater on the cb band here in SE, up in the middle of sweden somwhere
[19:17] <Oddstr13> nice
[19:18] <Oddstr13> got a link?
[19:18] <SA6BSS> and theay are legal, the checked with PTS
[19:18] <SA6BSS> looking...
[19:18] <Oddstr13> 12W is a rather significant TX power, isn't it?
[19:19] <fsphil> it's not bad
[19:19] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
[19:19] <Oddstr13> most of the commercial radios are 5W afaik
[19:20] Nick change: [1]michal_f -> michal_f
[19:21] <SA6BSS> Oddstr13: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeDDvEuV7LY
[19:22] <SA6BSS> Oddstr13: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWDtDKRCk-U
[19:22] <Oddstr13> SA6BSS: ah, yea, simplex repeater
[19:22] <SA6BSS> might be, never looked closly
[19:22] <Oddstr13> I was thinking of duplex repeater
[19:22] <SA6BSS> ok
[19:23] <Oddstr13> simplex repeater is allowed, duplex is not, iirc
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[19:34] <Maxell> http://www.kitbuilding.org/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&view=productdetails&virtuemart_product_id=63&virtuemart_category_id=12&Itemid=113
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[19:41] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ARY1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ARY1
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[19:51] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SMI_PITS - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SMI_PITS
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[20:12] <chris_99> http://dare.tudelft.nl/ sounds cool
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[21:22] <Lunar_Lander> oh well
[21:22] <Lunar_Lander> payload is getting to the performance borders of the balloon
[21:22] <Lunar_Lander> not so nice
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[22:07] <deepdesigns> Lunar_Lander: what are you working with? We're pushing the limits of the parachute instead :)
[22:07] <Lunar_Lander> I still have a hwoyee 1000
[22:08] <deepdesigns> although I saw a video of a 7m/s descent and it looked okay.. not as scared
[22:08] <deepdesigns> the team wants to put a gopro on the bottom.. I said.. as long as you don't mind losing it, honestly
[22:09] <deepdesigns> or we can go try to catch it :P
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[22:09] <mbales> gopros will take quite a beating without breaking
[22:12] <deepdesigns> http://imgur.com/ed3kYSE
[22:12] <deepdesigns> not too bad for a pumpkin I suppose
[22:13] <mbales> not bad at all
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[22:17] <Laurenceb_> hellpros
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> to be fair they do seem to run quite well if you can get them to boot
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[22:31] <BeaverOne> mbales: http://www.tao-group.de/en_fallschirm_alf.html
[22:32] <mbales> nice, I saw something about that a while ago but coudlnt find it again. Mine would be quite similar, but much smaller, meant for a sub 6 pound balloon payload.
[22:33] <BeaverOne> mbales: you have a design?
[22:33] <mbales> Ive got a full set of parts, just never got around to assembly or testing
[22:33] <mbales> so yes i suppose would be the answer
[22:33] <BeaverOne> mbales: can i see the design so far?
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[22:34] <mbales> dont have anythign in a digital form, mostly back of the napkin stuff, its a parasail from hobby king, a ardupilot, and some 1 watt 900mhz transceivers
[22:35] <mbales> oh and a servo
[22:35] <mbales> or two
[22:37] <BeaverOne> mbales: http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/1.55919?journalCode=jgcd
[22:37] <BeaverOne> mbales: wouldn't that autonomous parachute revolutionize this hobby?
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[22:40] <mbales> its a parasail so not circular, and yes it could make things a heck of a lot easier, just have your payload fly back to you, no recovery, or atleast avoid water, powerlines, dogs, etc. The trouble is the legalities, to please the FAA it cant stear itself above 400 feet, and a human has to be able to over ride it, still useful, but not quite as useful
[22:40] <SIbot> In real units: 400 ft = 122 m
[22:41] <mbales> which assuming an optimistic 4-1 glide ration only gets you 1600 feet
[22:41] <SIbot> In real units: 1600 ft = 488 m
[22:43] <Laurenceb_> I worked on an autonomous rogallo wing
[22:43] <BeaverOne> mbales: http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/26901/54630042-MIT.pdf?sequence=2
[22:44] <Laurenceb_> https://ukhas.org.uk/_media/projects:imgp0191.jpg?w=800&tok=2989aa
[22:45] <mbales> there you go laurenceb
[22:45] <BeaverOne> "Internally, the system had a main system integration board, onto which were mounted a GPS card, a microprocessor board custom designed to connect directly to a commercial hobby-grade 7 channel radio control receiver, integration electronics (A/D, serial communication ports), power management, and user interface. Additionally, a GPS antenna was mounted flush on the top face of the box."
[22:45] <mbales> i kinda moved on from the project casue i couldnt afford the helum and balloons to do enough testing
[22:46] <mbales> yeah, so fairly similar to my setup
[22:46] <BeaverOne> mbales: that was in the late 80s also, heh heh
[22:46] <BeaverOne> Laurenceb_: can i see more of your project?
[22:46] <Laurenceb_> mine was 2009
[22:46] <Laurenceb_> somewhere on the wiki
[22:47] <Laurenceb_> https://ukhas.org.uk/projects:parafoil_avr?s[]=rogallo
[22:50] <Laurenceb_> https://ukhas.org.uk/code:parafoil_v2
[22:52] <Laurenceb_> nowadays I'd use usblox 7 and a magno for heading
[22:52] <BeaverOne> Laurenceb_: how reliable was the system?
[22:53] <Laurenceb_> worked well in hill launches
[22:53] <Laurenceb_> failed due to unknotted winch servo on the flight
[22:53] <Laurenceb_> due to vibration during ascent
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[22:54] <BeaverOne> Laurenceb_: what about using this in a parachute carrying a payload from 30km up
[22:56] <Laurenceb_> well its not really a "parachute"
[22:58] <Laurenceb_> https://ukhas.org.uk/_media/projects:ukhas_glider_project:pict7924.jpg?w=750&tok=e9b4e0
[22:58] <Laurenceb_> prototype
[22:58] <BeaverOne> hmm, this is certainly a bit advanced
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[22:59] <BeaverOne> Laurenceb_: it was able to land reasonably where you wanted it?
[22:59] <Laurenceb_> it took a lot of hill tests to get it working
[22:59] <Laurenceb_> it was from hill tests, yeah
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[23:10] <BeaverOne> http://www.maxonmotorusa.com/medias/sys_master/8803679404062/Precision-Guided-Parachutes.pdf%3Fmi
[23:10] <BeaverOne> Laurenceb_: they're using a parafoil
[23:10] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
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[23:12] <BeaverOne> accuracy of 100 meters
[23:12] <chris_99> impressive
[23:13] <BeaverOne> chris_99: i think it might be military contracts though :(
[23:13] <chris_99> how does it work it says 'Onyx is a patented, two-parachute hybrid that uses a high-efficiency, ram-air elliptical parafoil for autonomous guidance'
[23:13] <BeaverOne> can't find any way to buy their Onyx Micro product for 0-20lb payloads
[23:13] <SIbot> In real units: 20 lbs = 9.1 kg
[23:14] <Laurenceb_> armadillo aerospace used it sucessfully on some of their STIG launches
[23:14] <Laurenceb_> its very impressive to watch the videos
[23:14] <BeaverOne> Laurenceb_: yours or the Onyx?
[23:14] <chris_99> oh got it 'Onyx flight patterns are controlled by having the controller interface with two steering winches, which are attached to the parafoil'
[23:15] <Laurenceb_> Onyx
[23:15] <BeaverOne> so we could buy their products?
[23:15] <chris_99> cool
[23:15] <Laurenceb_> its just lands the STIg straight back by the launch pad
[23:15] <Laurenceb_> for a lot of dollars
[23:15] <Laurenceb_> armadillo used it for free as it was in development at the time
[23:16] <chris_99> how hard would it be to rip-off the idea of using 2 winches
[23:16] <adamgreig> someone had a working RTL parafoil glider deployed from a rocket at balls this year
[23:16] <Laurenceb_> chris_99: not too hard in principle
[23:16] <chris_99> mmm heh
[23:16] <Laurenceb_> very similar to the rogallo I made control wise
[23:16] <BeaverOne> what about a RC parafoil / parachute design?
[23:16] <Laurenceb_> but tricky to test and debug
[23:17] <Laurenceb_> rogallo is at least fairly easy to throw off a cliff
[23:17] <Laurenceb_> also rogallo is pretty fail safe
[23:17] <chris_99> could you not throw the Onyx off a cliff?
[23:18] <Laurenceb_> it seems to be literally impossible for it to get itself into an unrecoverable attitude if its trimmed correctly
[23:18] <Laurenceb_> well 1) youd need to buy an Onyx
[23:18] <Laurenceb_> 2) you would probably find it difficult without some sort of rail
[23:19] <Laurenceb_> as itd need to be heading in the right direction as it opened (i.e. not towards the face)
[23:19] <Laurenceb_> I actually used a very steep hill for testing
[23:19] <Laurenceb_> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.1830985,-1.8455207,17z
[23:19] <chris_99> maybe you could do tests with a really long tethered balloon
[23:20] <Laurenceb_> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.181888,-1.84256,3a,66.8y,209.58h,83.67t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sTkcjzPgqUNTuXeV3PdDMKg!2e0
[23:20] <Laurenceb_> test range for rogallo dev
[23:20] <chris_99> cool
[23:21] <Laurenceb_> glide is about 1 in 3 to 1 in 4 for most of thise stuff
[23:21] <Laurenceb_> maybe you could use some sort of tow line to launch a parafoil in similar fashion
[23:22] Action: Laurenceb_ zzz
[23:23] <chris_99> so er, could you just use a kite i wonder http://www.amazon.co.uk/Anubis-Freestyle-Beach-Power-Parafoil/dp/B003TNTTY8/ref=sr_1_12?s=kids&ie=UTF8&qid=1444778545&sr=1-12&keywords=parafoil
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[23:27] <BeaverOne> heh
[23:27] <BeaverOne> "Sorry, we can't deliver this item to the United States"
[23:28] <chris_99> i guess you could use a propeller too even, like a paraglider
[23:28] <chris_99> er not paraglider
[23:29] <BeaverOne> this is hard to visualize
[23:30] <chris_99> which bit?
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[23:35] <BeaverOne> well i get you'll have servos or servo winches controlling two strings of the parafoil
[23:35] <BeaverOne> but i don't udnerstand all the guidance/data
[23:36] <BeaverOne> i can understand having gps, and some inertial sensor
[23:36] <BeaverOne> but interpreting that into making the servos do something ???
[23:37] <chris_99> yeah, i bet it's not easy to make it fly home even once you've got the servos working
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[23:39] <BeaverOne> https://ukhas.org.uk/code:parafoil_v2
[23:39] <BeaverOne> mbales_: do you have a moment?
[23:39] <mbales_> shoot
[23:40] <BeaverOne> here's what i can understand so far about an automated parafoil
[23:40] <BeaverOne> 1 servo to control, gps module, inertial sensing
[23:40] <BeaverOne> how do you make it all work though ?
[23:41] <mbales_> there is either a microcontroller running the show, or you have a remote control
[23:41] <mbales_> if its a microcontroller driven one itll be PID loops everywhere
[23:42] <mbales_> oh and kahlman filters
[23:42] <BeaverOne> mbales_: i'm reading over this and the source code : https://ukhas.org.uk/projects:parafoil_avr?s[]=rogallo#flight_computer
[23:42] <BeaverOne> https://ukhas.org.uk/code:parafoil_v2
[23:43] <BeaverOne> mbales_: could you explain some logic of how to guide the parafoil?
[23:44] <mbales_> the kalman section is filtering of the gyro data to make it more manageable and keep spurious data from causing issues
[23:46] <mbales_> let me read some more here
[23:51] <mbales_> so he takes the GPS data and runs it through a PID loo[ to see if he is going the right way or not, and does the same with the gyro to make sure he is turning the right way and adjusts how much he is turning based on that PID loop
[23:51] <mbales_> Im not great at explaining PID but wikipedia is
[23:53] <mbales_> basically does the data we received from the GPS and gyro match what we are tring to do? if not do which way do we turn and how much and when do we stop
[23:56] <mbales_> if that makes sense
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[00:00] --- Wed Oct 14 2015