highaltitude.log.20150916

[00:03] <cambazz> craag: so here is what I have done: http://picpaste.com/pics/unnamed-RH8t8Ez0.1442361805.jpg
[00:04] <cambazz> its two high precision RTC's side by side, and I can sync them from computer exactly at the same time, ~100microSeconds apart
[00:05] <cambazz> the rtc's give 1 second square wave, which triggers an interrupt on falling edge, so I reset a counter until next time, and measure the previous, to see how many microseconds my mcu has counted for each pulse.
[00:05] <cambazz> i also get a sync intterrupt from the other RTC and compare which one is forward, etc
[00:05] <craag> ok
[00:05] <craag> so all you really need is the pps pulse from gps and you can do a 3-way compare
[00:06] <cambazz> so it appears, the RTCs are not beating the same, one of them is slowing down like 1ppm/1-2sec, 150ppm/105sec exactly which corresponds to a 45 second per year difference
[00:07] <cambazz> what I am trying to do is to sync them independently with 2 different gps'es and have them beat at the same time
[00:09] <craag> I'd feed the PPS lines from each into a single mcu, then watch the relative phase offsets of each
[00:09] <craag> You need to be careful of relying on absolute values of the MCU timers
[00:10] <craag> as they'll drift more than your rtc I bet
[00:11] <craag> so you can run a timer off the gps pulse, and then record the value that each of the RTC interrupts occur at, and the total length of the gps pulse, and that'll give you offsets of the RTCs with respect to the gps.
[00:12] <cambazz> yes, rtc has a drift of 2-3 ppm, the mcu rtc has a drift of 10-15ppm, I am aware of it, i will probably normalize that somehow.
[00:14] <cambazz> but here is the thing, if I were to make 2 independent modules, each one of them getting the clock data, would both of them arrive at the same time.
[00:15] <cambazz> i could do a 3 way syncing, like from gps to each other 2 rtcs, and that would sync right as i am doing it from computer, but lets say if these clocks are seperated, each one getting gps time independently
[00:16] <cambazz> would the GP strings arrive exactly at the same time?
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[00:17] <craag> The GP strings would be within a second, I don't know if exactly. The PPS pulse would be within microseconds, if not less.
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[00:19] <cambazz> within a second is too much. i have 2 of the same modules and i will test. i also will see if i can take the pps pin out.
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[00:20] <cambazz> you mentioned something about station mode before, and thats something we send with AT commands right
[00:20] <craag> It'll be UBX commands
[00:20] <craag> as in the Receiver Protocol Descrption
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[00:20] <craag> however the gps needs to 'survey' before entering that mode
[00:21] <craag> which is to sit still for a few hours/days with a decent fix, so it knows exactly where it is
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[00:21] <craag> tbh for your application, which is long-term accuracy rather than instantaneous accuracy, the standard mode should be sufficient
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[00:22] <cambazz> so it need to wait sometime before i can send station mode command.
[00:23] <craag> I think so, you'd have to read into it
[00:23] <craag> I haven't used it
[00:27] <cambazz> ok i will try. one last question: where are the list of commands? I have been googling for a while, and i get the datasheet but could not find them
[00:28] <craag> https://www.u-blox.com/en/product-resources/2684
[00:28] <craag> Receiver Description Protocol Specification
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[00:33] <cambazz> thank you very much craag
[00:33] <craag> no problem, good luck, and good night!
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[04:49] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03934 148 890_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=934%20148%20890_chase
[05:15] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HB9FDK-12 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HB9FDK-12
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[07:10] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03ER0UTM after 0319 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ER0UTM
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[08:43] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03HB9FDK-13 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HB9FDK-13
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[09:58] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SR0FLY after 034 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SR0FLY
[09:59] <fsphil> morning all
[09:59] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Morning
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[10:26] <SM0ULC> ''
[10:27] <fsphil> "";
[10:32] <gonzo__> NULL
[10:32] <gonzo__> +++ redo from start +++
[10:32] <gonzo__> +++ Out of cheese error +++
[10:39] <SM0ULC> /dev/null: No space left on device
[10:41] <ike> CPU NOT FOUND, PRESS F1 TO CONTINUE
[10:45] <UpuWork> Did Amell call National Grid ?
[10:46] <craag> Yes, they were sending out a van out and were going to call him when they'd got it, last I heard.
[10:46] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yup he got back, no charge, nailed the rocket to the pole in a bag
[10:46] <craag> oh nice
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[10:46] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Thought it might be an idea to put a bit about it on the Wiki for others in the future
[10:48] <UpuWork> oh good news
[10:50] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> saved the IRC lines here for later http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/power_line.txt
[10:54] <dbrooke> at that time of evening it was probably a bored crew on standby who wanted something to do
[10:55] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yup that was my thinking, or heading back from another job.
[10:57] <LazyLeopard> "Never guess what we found hanging from a line last night..." ;)
[11:14] <mfa298> ike: Keyboard not found, think F1 to continue.
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[11:48] <ike> mfa298 I have seen so many people who grab mouse and try to click on continue on boot screen
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[12:18] <fsphil> amiga boot menu required a mouse, didn't use the keyboard at all :)
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[12:32] <gonzo__> or these days, tapping with a finger
[12:34] <ike> there was some shit called winbios
[12:34] <ike> everyone hate it
[12:36] <ike> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdcvhZZIXUE 2:26
[12:37] <Vaizki> lots of servers had a recovery partition with GUI diagnostic and setup tools
[12:38] <Vaizki> which took about 10 minutes to boot into, pissing off everyone shivering in the datecenter cold wind
[12:38] <Vaizki> but yea I remember that graphical AMI BIOS too, with the XOR cursor and all :)
[12:42] <ike> in 10 miutes I can install win2000 on modern computer
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[12:49] <camera> Hey - have a camera question. Being a bit lazy, I find that it is easier to let the raspberry pi camera to be attached to the side of the payload instead of making a hole and letting the camera see through it. My gut tells me that this might create problems that I do not know about. Anyone know what might happen in this case?
[12:49] <camera> will the camera lens get fogged over?
[12:50] <camera> or stop working due to the low tempareture?
[12:51] <SpeedEvil> As a general point, if cameras are operating when they go up, there is no problem at all
[12:51] <SpeedEvil> they are kept nice and toasty by their use of power
[12:51] <craag> I've attached pi cameras bare on the outside of the payload - totally fine
[12:51] <gonzo__> I don't know about the temp ranges of those cams. But moisture/rain may be a consideration
[12:51] <SpeedEvil> that though
[12:51] <craag> Do be aware of rain though
[12:51] <gonzo__> a spray of conformal coating?
[12:52] <gonzo__> though nbe careful of it wicking through the the optics
[12:52] <craag> Easier to cut a hole :)
[12:52] <camera> craag - you have let the cameras bare on the side....? Thats sounds ideal :)
[12:52] <camera> since that is what I plan to do
[12:53] <camera> I hope to not launch in rainy conditions though
[12:53] <michal_f> nice PI camera mini box would be nice... I'm just about to mount it in my payload and don't know how
[12:54] <craag> It works, just be aware of rain/physical damage
[12:54] <craag> if you have the time, do mount it properly :)
[12:55] <camera> whats a pi camera box?
[12:55] <camera> I am not able to do a good job of cutting holes in the foam
[12:55] <michal_f> a box to mount pi camera inside ;]
[12:55] <michal_f> some kind of mini case
[12:55] <camera> I made one hole for the canon and it is not round and I am afraid that it is going to make the payload cold :(
[12:56] <camera> but a case will add to the weight...
[13:00] <michal_f> what's the weight of your payload ?
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[13:00] <camera> so far it is about 900g
[13:04] <michal_f> Mine is ~280 but without styrofoam box yet
[13:04] <camera> that is good
[13:04] <michal_f> I just have PI/ntx/uBlox and bunch of wires
[13:05] <camera> does it include the battery also?
[13:05] <michal_f> yes
[13:05] <chimpusmaximus> I have often used one of these http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:92208 when mounting to outside a payload. Just kept it nice and simple to attach
[13:05] <michal_f> chimpusmaximus: nice one, thanks
[13:06] <camera> that box looks great
[13:07] <camera> michal_f: are you using another camera or just the raspi camera?
[13:08] <camera> anyone used the hourly predictor for the launch?
[13:08] <camera> https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:hourlypredictor
[13:08] <mattbrejza> most people do
[13:09] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Quite a lot do, yes.
[13:09] <chimpusmaximus> Well worth using, certainly gives you an idea what a 30 minute delay might result in.
[13:09] <camera> how do I get it?
[13:09] <michal_f> camera: just a PI cam
[13:10] <michal_f> I,m still thinking how to grab video and stills, as the camera draws quite a lot of power
[13:11] <michal_f> I guess I will be getting shorter clips every few minutes or so
[13:11] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Get the attention of aSysadmin in #habhub and then
[13:11] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> [20:32] <adamgreig> ask here with a site name, latitude, longitude, altitude, contact email address, contact name, and a password to use to edit the ballono details
[13:11] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> best to do it PM to the sysadmin
[13:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03kl36b7815_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=kl36b7815_chase
[13:12] <camera> so there is a user named sysadmin?
[13:12] <camera> on the habhub channel?
[13:13] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> no just ask as you have and when someone with the right authorites comes up send them the details
[13:13] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> the channel is priamarily for the sysadmins, so idea is keep traffic low to make it easier
[13:15] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03kl05z8279_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=kl05z8279_chase
[13:17] <camera> got it. I logged on to the habhub channel and I see that it silent over there :)
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[13:28] <camera> question about SSDV
[13:29] <camera> if I include ssdv in my launch, and assuming that I or others who receive the signals upload it to habhub site
[13:29] <camera> will there be a link that can be sent to friends to watch the live images?
[13:29] <craag> http://ssdv.habhub.org/
[13:30] <craag> you can also filter by callsign, eg. http://ssdv.habhub.org/MASAM
[13:30] <camera> nice! Thanks :)
[13:31] <camera> it feels awesome to see our images getting beamed live :)
[13:31] <craag> having lots of listeners is key to getting complete images, everyone will likely miss a few packets each.
[13:32] <craag> where are you launching?
[13:34] <camera> South of Paris, hoping for next weekend (not this upcoming one)
[13:34] <camera> the weather has not been very good so far but I am hoping that it will improve by 26/9
[13:37] <craag> Are you in contact with Alain F6AGV?
[13:38] <craag> He runs a blog: http://alerte-radiosondes.blogspot.co.uk/
[13:38] <craag> Often tracks our balloons from Calais, and alerts local listeners when we have flights over france
[13:43] <michal_f> these STLs for camera case - do they contain dimensions ?
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[13:44] <chimpusmaximus> dont think so
[13:44] <chimpusmaximus> well i can get overall dimensions but not much else if i recall.
[13:45] <chimpusmaximus> If your after one i can prob print a few off
[13:50] <michal_f> I'll take measurements when I get home
[13:50] <michal_f> thanks anyway
[13:50] <chimpusmaximus> ok
[14:06] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KD0ZTV-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD0ZTV-1
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[14:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 038472714476_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=8472714476_chase
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[15:11] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03847-2714476_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=847-2714476_chase
[15:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AD4GN-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AD4GN-11
[15:34] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03lala_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=lala_chase
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[16:20] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03yl3gbc_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=yl3gbc_chase
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[17:43] <fsphil> camera, ntx2, parachute. I detect a pattern
[17:45] <eroomde> has there been a parachute online?
[17:45] <fsphil> yeah
[17:46] <eroomde> nice
[17:46] <fsphil> no gps so far :)
[17:46] <eroomde> only a matter of time
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[18:39] <michal_f> I'm arranging layout of elements in a payload styrofoam box:
[18:39] <michal_f> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_8ipK0TpiuhaHZuR2ZjUW1wZnM/view?usp=sharing
[18:39] <michal_f> do you see any potential problems with this? (like interference etc.)
[18:40] <jcoxon> michal_f, best thing to do is put it together and see
[18:41] <michal_f> true :)
[18:41] <jcoxon> before launch of course
[18:41] <michal_f> double true
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[18:43] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[19:25] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 031-614-357-2855_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=1-614-357-2855_chase
[19:27] <chris_99> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloon-borne_telescope sounds cool
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[19:28] <eroomde> chris_99: there's a v good documentary about BLAST
[19:29] <chris_99> ooh, know what it's called?
[19:29] <chris_99> http://www.devlinpix.com/film/blast ?
[19:29] <SpeedEvil> http://gpsworld.com/innovation-getting-there-by-tuning-in/ Using HD Radio Signals for Navigation
[19:30] <michal_f> 2cm of light styrofoam covering a GPS antenna is a problem ?
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[19:34] <eroomde> michal_f: nope
[19:34] <eroomde> all good
[19:34] <eroomde> chris_99: yes that one
[19:34] <chris_99> cool, i'll look into it
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[20:18] <ntx2> Hi - I am building the payload antenna. What should be the length of the positive wire? Should it also be 164mm like the ground?
[20:19] <fsphil> that is both correct and backwards
[20:19] <ntx2> ?
[20:19] <fsphil> the active element (the positive wire) should be 164mm long-ish
[20:20] <ntx2> backwards?
[20:20] <fsphil> normally you'd measure the active element first
[20:20] <fsphil> the ground plane wires should be about the same too, or longer
[20:20] <Ian_> . . . and the ground plane elements should be at least 164mm (taken as being equal to)
[20:20] <fsphil> they're not as critical
[20:21] <Babs_> BITD i mounted one upside down
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[20:21] <Babs_> it was only through the wisdom of Upu that i didn't have to contact the ISS to get them to help me track it
[20:22] <ntx2> so I should have the ground plane and the active element almost the same length and at least 164mm?
[20:22] <Babs_> Chris Hadfield, could you download fl-digi for me?
[20:22] <fsphil> my first flight had two antennas, one on top and one on bottom
[20:22] <ntx2> wow, really? why two antennas?
[20:22] <fsphil> two payloads
[20:22] <Ian_> Each element 164mm, just to keep it easy.
[20:23] <ntx2> measure the length from where?
[20:23] <ntx2> since there is a blob in the middle that connects them all together
[20:23] <fsphil> got a picture handy?
[20:26] <ntx2> give me a min
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[20:31] <ntx2> http://imgur.com/9yrv7xP
[20:33] <michal_f> you should measure from point where the screening ends
[20:33] <michal_f> i guess
[20:33] <ntx2> screening?
[20:33] <ntx2> meaning
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[20:33] <michal_f> my antenna has active element around 16cm and ground plane wires are about inch longer - makes no difference
[20:34] <michal_f> the screen in coax
[20:35] <michal_f> my antenna: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_8ipK0TpiuhNXNPQ25BdVphbk0/view?usp=sharing
[20:35] <ntx2> that is a very interesting looking antenna :)
[20:36] <ntx2> I got very nervous when I read that the length of the ground plane has to be pretty accurate
[20:36] <ntx2> what if I lose signal from my payload? :)
[20:38] <mfa298> the length of the active element should be fairly accurate although a few mm difference isn't likely to make much difference
[20:39] <mfa298> the ground plane wires don't need to be as accurate, just aim for at least 164mm.
[20:39] <michal_f> I was cutting the wire watching reflected power: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_8ipK0TpiuhT3U0WU5WYXZ5d00/view?usp=sharing
[20:39] <mfa298> as for losing signal from the payload, make sure you've tested everything well, ideally with a bit of distance between the payload and you testing.
[20:40] <michal_f> +/- 1cm shopuld not make much difference
[20:40] <michal_f> and I didn't see much effect when cutting ground plane wires
[20:41] <michal_f> In my case, the active wire is exactly 155mm measured from PCB
[20:41] <mfa298> I think if the ground plane gets much shorted than the 1/4 wave length you might see an impact, but longer shouldn't make much differnece (might impact the radiation pattern)
[20:42] <michal_f> (mine are 1/2 cm longer)
[20:42] <ntx2> whats that latest image of?
[20:42] <mfa298> michal_f: that looks like a nice way to do the antenna. I've seen a few similar ones people have done using panel mount connectors (more usually for ground based antennas)
[20:44] <michal_f> ntx2: http://www.rtl-sdr.com/rtl-sdr-tutorial-measuring-filter-characteristics-and-antenna-vswr-with-an-rtl-sdr-and-noise-source/
[20:45] <ntx2> michal_f: Thanks!
[20:45] <michal_f> mfa298: mine looks to be pretty solid, should be OK in air :)
[20:46] <ntx2> does anyone have a video or a step by step instructions for the balloon and parachute setup with the payload?
[20:46] <ntx2> I know there is a step by step instructions for the balloon tie
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[20:47] <michal_f> this is my payload cross-section: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_8ipK0TpiuhYy1QbnVHaDVmUFU/view?usp=sharing
[20:48] <michal_f> looks reasonable ?
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[20:58] <ntx2> looks very sparse :)
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[20:58] <ntx2> mine looks huge in comparison
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[22:18] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
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[22:37] <energia> hey craag are you there?
[22:38] Nick change: energia -> cambazz
[22:39] <cambazz> so i compared the arrival time of of the position fix info from two different m8c's that I got from habsupplies.
[22:39] <cambazz> it is within 10msec equal
[22:40] <cambazz> http://picpaste.com/pics/IMG_0574-ImS9ToHa.1442443042.JPG http://picpaste.com/pics/IMG_0575-vhtjTf9r.1442443057.JPG <- here is my test setup
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[22:42] <cambazz> i so the GNGGA's arrive max 10 milliseconds apart, usually 1-2
[22:42] <craag> a millisecond is a *lot* in gps timing
[22:43] <craag> but depends what accuracy you're after I guess
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> There may be one sentance that is the timestamp
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> and it may for example be the timing of the first char start bit
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> That is the reference
[22:44] <craag> SpeedEvil: Yep, that's what he's measured I believe.
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> I guess they don't care then
[22:45] <SpeedEvil> they should only be 10ms apart if they're 3000km apart
[22:46] <cambazz> well, i am parsing GNGGA from i2c, but I should be measuring the PPS pin for reference. since my module does not have pps pin i think i am going to solder a wire
[22:47] <craag> the 'TIMEPULSE' pin will be PPS by default, maybe though only when it has a lock.
[22:48] <craag> (which of course you should have the whole time anyway)
[22:48] <cambazz> I am after having two clocks beat at the same time + or minus, and measure deviances with my local reference.
[22:48] <cambazz> craag: yes I made checks for it where it only works if lock=1 and sats>3
[22:52] <Lunar_Lander> hi craag
[22:52] <craag> Evening Lunar_Lander
[22:53] <Lunar_Lander> how's life?
[22:54] <craag> good thanks
[22:54] <craag> you?
[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> ah fair I would say
[23:18] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[23:18] <Ian_> guten nacht LL
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[00:00] --- Thu Sep 17 2015