highaltitude.log.20150901

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[06:58] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Hawk1_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Hawk1_chase
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[08:04] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03ZN99 after 0317 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ZN99
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[09:22] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/xo645sw.gifv
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[09:24] <x-f> longer version - https://youtu.be/t5JgnMJzCtQ
[09:42] <Laurenceb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8bIXeM0RJ8
[09:47] <eroomde> i hope he is doing it that way because he owns an electric motor factory
[09:47] <eroomde> rather than because he thinks that's the right solution
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[11:03] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03JACKAL5 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=JACKAL5
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[11:12] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HB9FDK-11 after 036 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HB9FDK-11
[11:38] <Laurenceb> anyone know if the plugged Estes motors are lighter than the delay ones?
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[12:02] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/ChKc5CZ.jpg
[12:16] <Laurenceb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKfID-i41sc
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[14:13] <fsphil> higher altitude winds have changed direction. back to winter mode :(
[14:14] <fsphil> http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=a0e0853cea835350fc97a2ea6b44da1b768e942a
[14:16] <daveake> yep. For those RPi flights the upper level winds were mid-change - hardly moving
[14:19] <fsphil> right over Upu that one
[14:20] <eroomde> never give up hope
[14:46] <daveake> I want to have another shot and sending one to fsphil
[14:46] <eroomde> that would be fantastic
[14:46] <daveake> had a good try last year
[14:46] <eroomde> hab delivery
[14:46] <daveake> silly 1600 decided to burst first
[14:46] <daveake> flight path was right on target till then
[14:47] <eroomde> you could send him a satchet of fine white powder without the authorities seeing it
[14:47] <eroomde> because it can be hard to export 01005 resistors using the post
[14:47] <daveake> is it hard to buy talc in NI then ?
[14:47] <daveake> hah
[14:48] <fsphil> soon it may be the only method to post me lipo batteries
[14:49] <daveake> hah
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[14:50] <gonzo_> I would have thouight that sending any latex into NI may have upset the catholic church
[14:54] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[14:55] <fsphil> air drop some copies of the god delusion
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[15:00] <eroomde> ordered two more copies of AoE for work
[15:02] <fsphil> I've been taking peeks into my copy. there's a lot in there
[15:02] <eroomde> yep
[15:03] <gonzo_> much changed from rev 2??
[15:03] <eroomde> yep
[15:03] <eroomde> it's a different book
[15:03] <eroomde> and it's excellent
[15:03] <Laurenceb> age of empires?
[15:04] <eroomde> correct
[15:10] <Laurenceb> wow
[15:10] <gonzo_> I should opvercome my tight-arsed tendencies and buy a copy
[15:10] <Laurenceb> massive email exchange and raging over graph hatching at work
[15:10] <Laurenceb> funtimes
[15:17] <Laurenceb> and now the order of graph legends... there is an edit war ongoing in the version control system...
[15:18] <eroomde> sounds like a proper bikeshedding session
[15:19] <nick_> When it gets down to editing for these sorts of things it should be given to a single person as their job, noone else gets a say but they can bitch about you for the rest of time when you get it wrong.
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[15:22] <Laurenceb> tbh I dont understand how anyone can bring themselves to care about such stuff
[15:23] <nick_> I care about it, but not enough to argue about it (unless there are confusing inconsistencies)
[15:24] <eroomde> i don't care so long as it's right
[15:24] <nick_> It's often just an ego bashing thing.
[15:24] <eroomde> but everyone else does it wrong
[15:24] <eroomde> so they need to be corrected
[15:24] <eroomde> with lots of capslock
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: you need a conflict resolution system. http://www.ask8ball.net/
[15:25] <Laurenceb> heh
[15:25] <nick_> As long as plots pass some basic sanity checks there are infinite "correct" ways to plot them.
[15:26] <nick_> Then it's just arguing for argument's sake.
[15:26] <fsphil> SpeedEvil: the 8 ball disagrees with you
[15:27] <gonzo_> if that's all people have to gripe about.....
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[15:28] <eroomde> gonzo_: not really
[15:28] <nick_> If they didn't have other things to gripe about they would't gripe about bikeshedding topics, they are really proxy gripes.
[15:28] <gonzo_> though usually it's just one person who cares and another 6 winding them up
[15:28] <eroomde> in environments where you get a lot of people from academia, this stuff is much more important than you realise
[15:28] <eroomde> salary matters less than latex
[15:29] <Laurenceb> yeah it seems so
[15:29] <nick_> The problem is mostly the inherently ill-defined power structure.
[15:30] <eroomde> it's inverted in academia
[15:30] <eroomde> researchers are at the top
[15:30] <nick_> That's the problem, it should be inverted, but it's not.
[15:30] <eroomde> 'managers' are the support staff that keep the dept running financially and so on and generally allow the researchers to be researchers
[15:31] <eroomde> and the opposite is true in the real world
[15:31] <nick_> In many people's eyes it is just who talks the most/loudest who has the most power.
[15:31] <daveake> julie
[15:31] <nick_> So lots of people try to do that.
[15:32] <daveake> er wrong window sry
[15:32] <eroomde> daveake: fits in conectext tho
[15:32] <eroomde> context*
[15:32] <daveake> :)
[15:32] <daveake> super secret password obv
[15:33] <nick_> Unfortunately I don't know how to solve the problem.
[15:33] <nick_> Except by working on your own.
[15:33] <eroomde> talk louder?
[15:33] <nick_> And it's almost impossible to have a career working on your own.
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> nick_: First obtain one hundred million dollars.
[15:34] <eroomde> in research sciences or gneerally?
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> Have career on your own.
[15:34] <eroomde> i presume the former
[15:34] <nick_> That would make it easier.
[15:34] <nick_> In research science.
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> nick_: What field?
[15:35] <nick_> I'm a particle physicist, but I think it's similar in most fields.
[15:35] <SpeedEvil> Fundamental problem is way too many grad students.
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[15:36] <nick_> No
[15:37] <nick_> I don't see the number of graduate students as a problem at all (except when you can't get enough)
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[15:37] <nick_> The fundamental problem to me seems to be a lack of inherent hierarchy and management skills.
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> students as cheap labour means that they can't progress to PIs in general
[15:38] <eroomde> I don't see how that's a research-specific thing
[15:38] <nick_> I don't see that being a problem.
[15:38] <eroomde> just as not everyone in a company will progress to being a CEO
[15:39] <eroomde> it's not really an inherent problem with companies, it's just how it is
[15:39] <eroomde> there doesn't exist a structure in which everyone can be a PI or a CEO
[15:41] <nick_> The old school model of a PI who has a couple of post-docs and graduate students who combine to work on a few related things no longer really holds.
[15:41] <nick_> That system had a fairly simple management structure.
[15:41] <nick_> Well, I think it kinda holds to some extent in some fields (seems to in chemsitry, for example)
[15:42] <eroomde> was the case in my old lab
[15:42] <nick_> But once you start getting large multi institute collaborations it falls apart.
[15:43] <nick_> Astronomy, fusion, particle physics are extreme examples, but I think many fields are tending that way.
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[15:45] <nick_> In part because of the way things are funded, in part because of the large expansion of the number of people working in the fields, etc.
[15:47] <nick_> At some point the communication/people/management side will catch up and we'll sort out some structures that work.
[15:48] <SpeedEvil> I was talking mainly from a virology and similar fields POV
[15:48] <SpeedEvil> http://www.virology.ws/ - fun podcast
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[15:49] <nick_> Yeah, I have only passing knowledge of what things are like in different areas. Also just different groups of people change things dramatically.
[15:50] <nick_> For example I'm visiting somewhere at the moment where they have just one large (double) office and the professors, post-docs, grad and undergrad students all sit together.
[15:51] <eroomde> rare!
[15:51] <nick_> And it feels more like the old fashioned group, even though most of the things they work on are large collaborations (and there are two professors).
[15:52] <nick_> I think there are a few reasons, partly it's the personalities of the professors. Partily it's because they're an electronics heavy group, so there are skills they pool, etc.
[15:52] <eroomde> which group, do you mind me asking?
[15:52] <nick_> It's at UPenn
[15:54] <eroomde> it sounds fun
[15:55] <nick_> I've been exposed to how things work in about 6 different research groups.
[15:55] <nick_> There are quite big differences between them. I think because noone ever learns how to manage them.
[15:56] <eroomde> maybe it's analogeous to why research code is shit
[15:56] <nick_> Unfortunately there's not a strong correlateion between how well a group is run and how well it is perceived.
[15:56] <eroomde> because having it well aintained and documented doesn't really help minimise any of the research cost functions
[15:56] <eroomde> - timely papers
[15:56] <nick_> Yes, it's quite similar. Expecting people to learn the important skills on the job from others that did likewise.
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[16:07] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[16:07] <ulfr> hi
[16:12] <fsphil> yo
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[16:15] <Lunar_Lander> hope you all have a good day :)
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[16:24] <RealBorg> i broke my glider today, wings fell off in mid-flight, now the fuselage is broken
[16:24] <Lunar_Lander> :(
[16:25] <Vaizki> both wings fell off?
[16:25] <RealBorg> wltoys F959, don't worry, it's not expensive and I now have something to fix or experiment with :)
[16:26] <RealBorg> wings are stuck into the fuselage with a carbon rod in between - somehow they got loose
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[16:29] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KF6RFX-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KF6RFX-11
[16:30] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KF6RFX-2 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KF6RFX-2
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[16:50] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KF6RFX-3 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KF6RFX-3
[16:55] <Lunar_Lander> a look back at old data is interesting http://s.gullipics.com/image/g/a/d/5yv591-lwhr6l-n3g/F1PotentialTemperature.jpeg
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[17:25] <j0nnymac> helloha
[17:27] <eroomde> a brief hello j0nnymac
[17:27] <j0nnymac> 8-)
[17:27] <j0nnymac> its quiet here...
[17:27] <eroomde> my colleague was down your way the other week
[17:28] <j0nnymac> ooohhh
[17:28] <eroomde> seeing the IoT lab/cafe/thing
[17:28] <j0nnymac> who ?
[17:28] <j0nnymac> no way!!
[17:28] <eroomde> showing some electronics we've made to work with nodered to andySC
[17:28] <j0nnymac> blimey - did he enjoy his time there/
[17:28] <j0nnymac> ?
[17:28] <eroomde> yep
[17:28] <j0nnymac> yeeeaaah
[17:29] <j0nnymac> i might be looking after that area soon
[17:29] <eroomde> the lab physically or IoT in a general sense?
[17:29] <j0nnymac> which should be bundles of fun
[17:29] <j0nnymac> the Labs + consultants
[17:30] <j0nnymac> id like to do more projects
[17:30] <eroomde> nice!
[17:30] <j0nnymac> where we involve folk outside Hursley
[17:30] <j0nnymac> yeah - bit scary
[17:30] <j0nnymac> but
[17:30] <j0nnymac> looking forwrd to it hugely!!!
[17:31] <eroomde> have you seen anything about controlling dinosaurs on the isle of wight with nodered?
[17:31] <eroomde> andy is involved
[17:31] <j0nnymac> good lord no i havent - but ive been in wales on holibobs
[17:31] <eroomde> ah fine
[17:31] <j0nnymac> first day back
[17:31] <eroomde> first day the weather has improved
[17:31] <j0nnymac> gosh
[17:32] <j0nnymac> dinosaurs
[17:32] <eroomde> anyway i have to dash
[17:32] <eroomde> i'll be back later
[17:32] <j0nnymac> mind is boggling
[17:32] <j0nnymac> k buddy
[17:32] <j0nnymac> great to chhat
[17:32] <j0nnymac> :)
[17:42] <j0nnymac> hey folks - quick question?
[17:47] <daveake> it might be if you ask it :)
[17:48] <ulfr> We're still waiting.
[17:48] <j0nnymac> oops
[17:48] <j0nnymac> sorry
[17:49] <j0nnymac> ok - so odd question first then a qualifier
[17:49] <j0nnymac> say your payload ditches in the sea
[17:49] <j0nnymac> if its waterproof and is still transmitting ok
[17:49] <daveake> you slap yourself for getting it wrong
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> Submarines!
[17:50] <adamgreig> plenty of intentionally ditched flights
[17:50] <j0nnymac> will the signal still be picked up and tracked?
[17:50] <adamgreig> typically not very well
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> j0nnymac: If it's on the surface with the antenna up - probably locally
[17:50] <adamgreig> poor radio range from sea level to antennas
[17:50] <adamgreig> and if the antenna was on the bottom of the payload...
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> But a kilometer or three - even if you're on a rise
[17:51] <daveake> I had one that did just this, with antenna underwater
[17:51] <daveake> rx'd ok at 600m
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> yeah - it varies what you define as the antenna
[17:51] <daveake> :)
[17:51] <j0nnymac> hmmm.. ok
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> if the antenna is in the water and the 'ground' is sticking up then it works the same
[17:51] <j0nnymac> so i have an idea
[17:51] <j0nnymac> :)
[17:52] <j0nnymac> 'let the beatings commence'
[17:52] <daveake> if you're intentionally ditching then put the antenna on the top, or inside the box
[17:52] <SpeedEvil> SPOT in principe would work well
[17:52] <SpeedEvil> pointed up
[17:52] <j0nnymac> budget <1k
[17:52] <daveake> Upu/Josh's one worked ... was that a spot or gsm? I forget
[17:52] <j0nnymac> launch via hab
[17:53] <Upu> "embarrasing"
[17:53] <j0nnymac> intentionall ditch
[17:53] <daveake> power to shore ?
[17:53] <j0nnymac> but payload is an autonomous gpsboat
[17:53] <j0nnymac> gps boat
[17:53] <daveake> yeah, that's been in my ideas list for a while
[17:53] <j0nnymac> solar + salt ater powered
[17:54] <j0nnymac> ooooh
[17:54] <j0nnymac> was wondering
[17:54] <j0nnymac> if idea was taken to an extreme
[17:54] <daveake> 2-way comms could be good so you could give it a target (i.e. you at the beach) and waypoint
[17:54] <daveake> s
[17:54] <j0nnymac> and say it was a circumnavigate globe trip
[17:54] <j0nnymac> with gps waypoints
[17:55] <j0nnymac> that the boat follows
[17:55] <j0nnymac> would it be trackable via habhub?
[17:55] <j0nnymac> aaaah 2 way comms = awesome
[17:56] <adamgreig> the part that habhub provides would be the least of your challenges to get a robotic ship to circumnavigate..
[17:56] <adamgreig> anything that can somehow post data to the web can appear on habhub, that part's straightforward
[17:56] <j0nnymac> yes - true
[17:57] <j0nnymac> there is no time limit though
[17:58] <j0nnymac> for the circumnavigate globe bit. was thinking - as long as it doesnt sink/waterproof and has enough power to effect movement - it might be a goer
[17:58] <ulfr> Tracking on sea is quite the challange.
[17:59] <daveake> rockblock is an obvious choice for that bit
[17:59] <ulfr> I looked into this some time ago, and I came to the conclusion that the only way to do this is via sattellite modem.
[17:59] <j0nnymac> yes... there is nada local in middle of sea
[17:59] <SA6BSS> use wspr tracker
[17:59] <daveake> power and waterproofedness and generally surviving in salt water are your main problems
[17:59] <j0nnymac> oooh
[18:00] <daveake> I'd forget about the hab bit of it
[18:00] <j0nnymac> thing is all the satellite comms stuff ive seen is v expensive
[18:00] <ulfr> Very is an understatement.
[18:01] <ulfr> HF tracker might work.
[18:01] <ulfr> Jt9 or something similar
[18:01] <j0nnymac> id really like the project to be reproducable by anyone without spending oodles (esp me :) )
[18:01] <adamgreig> rockblock's not that expensive
[18:01] <j0nnymac> really???
[18:01] <j0nnymac> ive never come across it
[18:01] <adamgreig> circa £200 for the modem and maybe 10p per message and £10 a month line rental?
[18:02] <adamgreig> you'll spend a lot more than that making something that survives any appreciable duration at sea, let alone while powered and motoring
[18:02] <adamgreig> there are other satellite options too
[18:02] <j0nnymac> i suspect im being a bit naively optimistic
[18:03] <ulfr> That's how progress is made.
[18:03] <j0nnymac> :)
[18:03] <ulfr> AIS beacons seem to survive in salt water.
[18:03] <ulfr> So it can be done.
[18:04] <ulfr> this rockblock thing is something I hadn't bumped into before, sounds feasable for the project i was working on.
[18:04] <j0nnymac> ok - so would it be fruitful for me to explore rockblock/ wspr?
[18:04] <ulfr> Even though transfering the images might take a while"
[18:05] <adamgreig> haha not really appropriate for images
[18:05] <adamgreig> you pay per 100-byte message
[18:05] <adamgreig> and transmit maybe one a minute
[18:05] <adamgreig> perhaps every 30s if you have a lot of electricity and good satellite view
[18:05] <ulfr> That's what I mean by while"
[18:05] <ulfr> haha
[18:05] <adamgreig> it would get ther ein the end
[18:05] <ulfr> for low res images it might work
[18:05] <j0nnymac> but no habhub tho?
[18:06] <ulfr> that would just be a programing/server/interface thingy
[18:06] <ulfr> You can basically spew whatever you want into habhub
[18:06] <adamgreig> j0nnymac: similar things have been done e.g. http://poseidon.sgsphysics.co.uk/
[18:06] <adamgreig> which had a rockblock and a GPS in a floating buoy that was dropped off a boat and tracked for a fwe months
[18:06] <j0nnymac> ooh ta <looking>
[18:06] <adamgreig> habhub actually has native rockblock support
[18:07] <adamgreig> http://track.poseidon.sgsphysics.co.uk/
[18:07] <adamgreig> http://habitat.readthedocs.org/en/latest/habitat/habitat/habitat/habitat.views.payload_telemetry.html#habitat.views.payload_telemetry.http_post_update
[18:07] <adamgreig> you can have the rockblock system post directly to habitat
[18:07] <adamgreig> which is cute
[18:08] <j0nnymac> wowser
[18:08] <j0nnymac> ok looks like they made it to the atlantic
[18:08] <adamgreig> but yea, these are all quite simple details compared to making something that can deliberately move about the ocean
[18:08] <adamgreig> lot of tough challenges there
[18:09] <j0nnymac> yeah... hmmm....maybe go oldschool with a sail :)
[18:09] <adamgreig> check out like http://gotransat.com/
[18:09] <j0nnymac> <looking>
[18:10] <adamgreig> sailing is very hard: http://www.design-engineering.com/general/canadian-sailbot-attempt-autonomous-atlantic-ocean-crossing-133824/
[18:10] <j0nnymac> grief its still going
[18:11] <adamgreig> it's really not
[18:11] <j0nnymac> maybe i can position it as 'ocean exploration'
[18:11] <adamgreig> that most recent point was in 2013
[18:11] <j0nnymac> aaaahhh
[18:11] <adamgreig> lost at sea I'm afraid
[18:12] <j0nnymac> hmmm... this sounds hard :)
[18:13] <j0nnymac> still - i shant let utter lack of knowledge or experience dissuade me - it sounds fun :)
[18:14] <j0nnymac> soooo...
[18:14] <j0nnymac> hab - up 20 miles take some pics - then land in ocean and track it as it ambles around the world forever
[18:15] <adamgreig> I would probably try to get the oceangoing part working before gluing it to a hab :p
[18:16] <j0nnymac> yes - hmmm... i can see all sorts of interesting conversatons with the CAA in my future
[18:17] <j0nnymac> thanks everyone - looks like ive got options to explore :)
[18:36] <eroomde> back
[18:36] <eroomde> nice pub dinner
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[18:37] <eroomde> mised J0nnymac, curses
[18:42] <SM0ULC> ncurses
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[18:49] <MrB_> Howdy. I'm writing a blow-by-blow tutorial for HAB novices for my SkyAcademy team.
[18:50] <MrB_> For the benefit of my guide, I'm right in saying this is where to come to ask for my flight to be approved, isn't it?
[18:50] <MrB_> I made a test one to make sure I've done everything correctly, and wonder what bit I need to give for your approval.
[18:51] <MrB_> Is it the doc ID I need to provide? Mine is 8e2aede87c9e973199f3d615f96bc5e1
[18:51] <Geoff-G8DHE> Good idea to come here to discuss, but the actual flight approval takes place in #habhub where te Sys Admins hangout ;-)
[18:51] <MrB_> Ahhhhhh
[18:51] <MrB_> Gotcha.
[18:51] <MrB_> I'll pop over there and see if anyone's about.
[18:51] <eroomde> there will be people about
[18:51] <eroomde> it never sleeps
[18:52] <MrB_> Splendid...
[18:52] <Geoff-G8DHE> It has a robot in there that displays the record and checks that it has actually seen the payload
[18:52] <MrB_> That's quite clever.
[18:53] <Geoff-G8DHE> and just to show there actually awake they have picked it up already ;-)
[18:53] <MrB_> Ummmm... Follow-up question: Do I have to close this browser tab and open a new one to change?
[18:53] <eroomde> no
[18:53] <MrB_> I seem to remember from my youth that I can type commands in this little chat box.....
[18:53] <eroomde> type '/join #habhub'
[18:53] <MrB_> You're the best.
[18:54] <eroomde> i try
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[19:21] <Geoff-G8DHE> So we all revert
[19:21] <eroomde> as if by magic
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[19:30] <eroomde> heading home, bbl
[19:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> CU
[19:32] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
[19:32] <Geoff-G8DHE> MrB_, Have you seen the Logtail incase you have problems decoding ?
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[20:25] <SA6BSS> interesting: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/QRPLabs/conversations/topics/7876
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[20:26] <SA6BSS> "I intend to make a U3B version, which is a lightweight, all-SMD version of the U3 targeted specifically for balloons. The size should be 37 x 13mm (1.5 x 0.5 inches) just like our favourite U3 LPF boards. The board will be half-thickness, 0.8mm not the standard 1.6mm. On the board will be the processor, Si5351A, GPS module, and boost voltage regulator. The overall weight should be under 2 grams."
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[20:33] <mclane_> good evening, is one of the habitat db developers available?
[20:33] <eroomde> ask on #habhub
[20:33] <mclane_> ok
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[20:46] <j0nnymac> evening
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[20:53] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SPUTKNICKERS_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SPUTKNICKERS_chase
[20:57] <jonsowman> SPUTKNICKERS
[20:57] <jonsowman> nice
[20:58] <adamgreig> haha great
[20:59] <Upu> lol
[20:59] <SM0ULC> :)
[21:03] <gonzo_nb> just sounds messy!
[21:04] <lz1dev> ( a~ \– a°)
[21:05] <mclane_> tigger-gg:any plans for the near future?
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[21:08] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PYSY - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PYSY
[21:17] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RPF-N2 after 037 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RPF-N2
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[23:54] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RZ3AZT-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RZ3AZT-11
[00:00] --- Wed Sep 2 2015