highaltitude.log.20150828

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[02:45] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03LU7AA - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=LU7AA
[03:09] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PI_SKY_PLUS - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PI_SKY_PLUS
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[07:14] <HB9RSU_> SPL1 is announced to start today. Unfortunately landing is predicted exactly in the landing/starting corridor of the airport ZRH :-(
[07:15] <HB9RSU_> We will probably move the start location 100km southwards now
[07:22] <malgar> HB9RSU_: hi
[07:22] <malgar> I'll try to track you
[07:23] <malgar> when will you launch exactly?
[07:24] <HB9RSU_> thank you. we don't know. we have to move now about 100km and then set up everything. I quess about 12 o'clock or even later
[07:25] <malgar> oh ok, please keep me updated because I have to move 30 min from here
[07:26] <HB9RSU_> ok... depending GSM coverage ...
[07:27] <malgar> tnx
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[07:36] <malgar> HB9RSU_: for my tracking I would prefer 13 more than 12 :P so.. take your time ;)
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[07:38] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HB9FDK-11 after 0310 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HB9FDK-11
[07:39] <malgar> HB9RSU_: where will you move exactly?
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[08:08] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03E29AJP-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=E29AJP-11
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[08:38] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03WIDE1-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WIDE1-1
[08:43] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RPF-C2 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RPF-C2
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[09:13] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03HB9RSU _chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HB9RSU%20_chase
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[09:25] <HB9RSU_> malgar: I guess we are ready at about 12:30. New position ist where the HB9RSU chase car is at the moment
[09:26] <malgar> HB9RSU_: ok! which maximum altitude do you expect?
[09:26] <malgar> and what ascent rate?
[09:27] <malgar> I think that I could receive you over 5000 m
[09:27] <malgar> I will be ready to receive you around 13, not earlier
[09:28] <HB9RSU_> thats fine! We expect about 30000m at 5m/s
[09:29] <malgar> ok, good luck
[09:37] <HB9RSU_> tnx!
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[10:32] <HB9RSU_> launch in 30 min of SPL1
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[10:40] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03HB9RTZ_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HB9RTZ_chase
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[10:45] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SPL1 after 032 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SPL1
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[11:10] <ntx2> hello
[11:10] <eroomde> greetings
[11:11] <ntx2> I am using a ublox max 8Q from HAB supplies as my GPS with Raspberry pi (connected via PL2303 USB)
[11:11] <ntx2> it has difficulty having satellite lock
[11:12] <ntx2> I have a passive antenna and I have it placed next to a window (open window)
[11:12] <craag> Which antenna is it? the chip or the black radome?
[11:12] <ntx2> a couple of days ago, it got the lock and I let it run for about an hour so that it can download the dictionary etc
[11:12] <ntx2> it has a black antenna
[11:12] <craag> ok
[11:12] <craag> information from a couple of days ago is too old to be useful to it
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[11:13] <ntx2> yesterday, I switched it on and it just wont get a lock even after an hour
[11:13] <jet> I just got a call from a pilot lol
[11:13] <craag> hmm
[11:13] <jet> Who got my number off the NOTAM map
[11:13] <jet> He started pilot speak and I had no clue what he was on about.
[11:13] <mfa298> also it it's been reset (powered off) it will probably have lost that data as well.
[11:13] <craag> Can you upload a pic of your setup ntx2 ?
[11:13] <jet> Had to tell him im 15...
[11:13] <ntx2> ok, will do in a couple of mins
[11:13] <jet> But he's flying over our launch site in a cessna tomorrow
[11:13] <jet> So I'm going to give him a call beforehand
[11:15] <jet> Is there any protocol for this?
[11:15] <jet> i.e. can I just launch when I see him fly over?
[11:16] <jet> The CAA said I didn't need to call any local ATC.
[11:17] <jet> And is it worth contacting people with other NOTAMs on the map to check they are ok with it?
[11:17] <eroomde> jet: did he say what time he's going to fly over?
[11:17] <jet> He said he's taking off around *;30
[11:17] <eroomde> jet: no don't do that
[11:17] <jet> 8
[11:17] <jet> 8:30
[11:17] <jet> He said he would fly over before 10am
[11:17] <eroomde> if you're not likely to clash with him, no need to call
[11:17] <jet> It is a likely clash
[11:17] <jet> Which is why he is concerned
[11:17] <eroomde> right, call him then
[11:17] <jet> I am
[11:17] <eroomde> and launch anyway if you can't get through
[11:17] <mattbrejza> when did you want to launch?
[11:17] <jet> He called me.
[11:18] <jet> We aim to launch around 10AM tomorrow
[11:18] <jet> Project Hermes launch.
[11:18] <mattbrejza> well i suspect youll be a bit late and see him fly over as youre still filling
[11:18] <craag> The notam serves to notify people, if they have concerns then they'll call you (like he did)
[11:19] <craag> Then you can come to some arrangement to avoid an incident (like you've done)
[11:19] <craag> :)
[11:19] <mattbrejza> we had someone fly over us last time craag ?
[11:20] <craag> yes lol
[11:20] <mattbrejza> no calls though
[11:20] <mattbrejza> it was perfectly clear though
[11:21] <jet> He wanted to know what it looked like
[11:22] <eroomde> big white ball
[11:22] <eroomde> can't miss it
[11:22] <eroomde> (but try to miss it)
[11:22] <jet> I told him it's a big white/cream orb
[11:23] <craag> :)
[11:23] <jet> In hindsight my language was probably too pretentious.
[11:23] <craag> hehe no problem with that
[11:23] <ntx2> here is the picture - http://imgur.com/VtxxpiF
[11:23] <craag> makes it sound like you know exactly what you're talking about :)
[11:24] <ntx2> So when the GPS is turned off, it has lost all data (from what I read online, it seemed that the GPS will retain data after it downloads the dictionary etc)
[11:24] <gonzo_> in such occasions, when there is likely to be a clash, I wonder if it;'s worth asking local atc to coordinate.
[11:24] <craag> ntx2: it will hold onto it if it has a backup battery
[11:24] <craag> however that info slowly goes out of date
[11:24] <daveake> I see metal bars in that pic ?
[11:25] <daveake> can't help
[11:25] <jet> Btw, some last minute questions.
[11:25] <jet> What do I do about water landing?
[11:25] <daveake> avoid
[11:25] <gonzo_> get wet?
[11:25] <jet> I am bringing along a massive pole for trees
[11:25] <ntx2> Dave - metal bars yes, but they are about 30 cm away
[11:25] <jet> But what if it lands in a lake?
[11:25] <daveake> faraday cage
[11:25] <jet> Would it sink? How would I retrieve?
[11:25] <daveake> it'll float
[11:26] <jet> Who do you contact for payloads stuck?
[11:26] <gonzo_> hope the wind blows it to the edge
[11:26] <ntx2> sure, I thought of the Faraday cage since I had this problem last time. But the GPS found satellites in this exact place 2 days ago
[11:26] <jet> Water, trees, on houses
[11:26] <daveake> I had one land in the sea. Maybe 10% was under water
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[11:26] <jet> How did you get it back off the sea!?
[11:26] <daveake> the wind
[11:26] <craag> I'd still expect it to get a lock behind the bars
[11:26] <daveake> ok
[11:26] <craag> ntx2: Can you plug the usb dongle into a computer?
[11:26] <jet> If its stuck on a tree or a house
[11:26] <craag> There's a ublox program called ucenter
[11:27] <jet> Who do you call?
[11:27] <gonzo_> surely it was the tide dave?
[11:27] <malgar> HB9RSU_: I'm listening
[11:27] <malgar> still nothing
[11:27] <jet> Assuming it's not retrievable via pole.
[11:27] <daveake> hab-busters
[11:27] <gonzo_> the house/land/tree owner
[11:27] <ntx2> sure, I can connect it to a computer
[11:27] <craag> ntx2: ucenter will tell you more about how many satellites it can see
[11:27] <daveake> well either get a longer pole (done that)
[11:27] <ntx2> and then I have to use the Windows program ucenter, right?
[11:27] <gonzo_> stupid boy, pike!
[11:27] <daveake> or call someone to climb up the tree (done that)
[11:27] <jet> House/land/tree owner will not be best pleased about paying to get our stuff off their roof.
[11:27] <craag> ntx2: it does work under wine :)
[11:27] <daveake> or get the tree cut down (not done that)
[11:27] <jet> What sort of people?
[11:27] <gonzo_> or cut the tree down
[11:27] <jet> Tree surgeons?
[11:27] <craag> ntx2: It'll tell you exactly how many satellites it's seeing
[11:27] <daveake> climbers
[11:28] <jet> climbers.
[11:28] <jet> ..
[11:28] <ntx2> sure....actually I am running gpsmon on raspi and it shows zero satellites
[11:28] <jet> So there are a people that make a living out of climbing trees?
[11:28] <gonzo_> any idiot prepared to do it
[11:28] <craag> ntx2: gpsmon is a bit weird with no lock
[11:28] <ntx2> does ucenter do more than gpsmon? Sorry, I have not used ucenter
[11:28] <daveake> maybe, but there are people who like climbing things
[11:28] <jet> I have a very long pole.
[11:28] <jet> sh*t
[11:28] <daveake> so do I, but some trees a much taller
[11:28] <ntx2> craag: got it. let me try that
[11:28] <jet> No innuendo intended.
[11:29] <craag> ntx2: yes, it can use some of the ublox-specific commands to interrogate the gps
[11:29] <ntx2> thanks for the helpp
[11:29] <jet> Exactly.
[11:29] <jet> So if the pole can't get it down
[11:29] <gonzo_> don';t brag
[11:29] <jet> It's nos safe for someone to climb
[11:29] <ntx2> will report back on it in a while
[11:29] <daveake> highest I've managed is about 17m, with a fibre-glass pole tapes/cable tied to an aluminium mast
[11:29] <ntx2> bye for now
[11:29] <jet> I have a yeoman apple picker/branch cutter.
[11:29] <daveake> that was 17 metres of random movement
[11:29] <jet> I'm guessing no fire brigade then
[11:30] <daveake> not unless you set fire to it first
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[11:30] <jet> If it's stuck on a house???
[11:30] <jet> Or in the middle of a lake?
[11:30] <daveake> pole should still work
[11:30] <daveake> boat
[11:30] <gonzo_> i managed to get one from a small tree by throwing the shovel up, with a rope tied
[11:30] <daveake> aren't all these answers obvious ????
[11:30] <jet> boat?
[11:30] <daveake> sigh
[11:30] <jet> Where am I going to get a boat from, 300 miles from home?
[11:31] <daveake> well either you take one with you
[11:31] <daveake> or find a shop
[11:31] <daveake> or if it's a big lake, it'll have boats already
[11:31] <daveake> This happened to one of Steve's flights
[11:31] <daveake> boat got to it before he arrived
[11:32] <gonzo_> finding the land owner is going the be the hardest job, unless it's a farm etc
[11:32] <jet> Any recommended ways of finding landowner?
[11:32] <daveake> eyes
[11:32] <daveake> find a house
[11:32] <daveake> ask
[11:32] <daveake> if though the payload is close to the road, and no houses around, just go and get it
[11:33] <gonzo_> though if the owner is nowhere near, then there will probably not be anyonew to get uypset if you pop in to recover
[11:33] <jet> k
[11:33] <daveake> it's all common sense
[11:33] <jet> Yeah, but some lakes are publically council owned
[11:33] <jet> publicly
[11:34] <gonzo_> gettinmg caught in power cables is the only one to worry about
[11:34] <jet> Great. What do I do about that...
[11:34] <gonzo_> even 11kv is bad if the string is damp
[11:34] <jet> Hey, at least I can call the electricity people then
[11:35] <gonzo_> yep, probably cost a few hunderd quid, but better that getting killed
[11:35] <jet> No
[11:35] <jet> It classes as
[11:35] <gonzo_> or some iother passer by copping it
[11:35] <jet> "a national grid emergency"
[11:35] <jet> As I have spotted a hazard on a power line :)
[11:35] <gonzo_> still get billed
[11:35] <jet> http://www2.nationalgrid.com/UK/Safety/Electricity/
[11:36] <gonzo_> if yoiur name is on it when they get it down....
[11:36] <mattbrejza> only a few hundred?
[11:36] <mattbrejza> what happens if you land on a 400kV one?
[11:36] <gonzo_> met office get billed when theirs are caught up
[11:36] <jet> ok
[11:36] <jet> time to log off before I have a panic attack.
[11:36] <daveake> The 11kV ones are fine, in the dry
[11:36] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CALLSIGN123_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CALLSIGN123_chase
[11:37] <RealBorg> almost certainly nothing would happen if it hit a power line
[11:37] <daveake> The payload and chute are going to be adngling; cut the line and pull whichever of those is the lowest
[11:37] <gonzo_> trees/waqter is the bigest probabliliy of a hang up, power cables are less probability but more embarssing
[11:37] <daveake> in the wet though, nope
[11:38] <RealBorg> I've just asked my local weather office if it possible to start from their premises / on their permission - wish me luck
[11:38] <jet> gg
[11:38] <gonzo_> earth stake, and fibreglass poll with scissors, earthed
[11:39] <daveake> stanley type knife blade works really well - easier than scissors
[11:39] <gonzo_> (have had to do that bwhen we got a cord stuck on 11kv lines trying to get a wire antenna up
[11:39] <gonzo_> just the cord not the wire!
[11:40] <daveake> :)
[11:40] <jet> Ok
[11:40] <gonzo_> though 11kv would probably sort that prob out by itself
[11:40] <jet> Looking forward to using the GSM tracker tomorrow
[11:40] <RealBorg> gonzo_, obviously since you are still here
[11:40] <jet> Can you believe you can actually track stuff with a gps and a mobile phone SIM!???
[11:40] <jet> Now the payload will be easy to recover.
[11:41] <daveake> They work sometimes
[11:41] <gonzo_> nope, we can't believe it. We have seen the success rate of that method
[11:41] <daveake> I don't even use them as a backup
[11:41] <jet> >waits for people to pile in attacking GSM before admitting I am actually using a habduino & SPOT
[11:41] <daveake> ah jet = hammil ?
[11:41] <jet> yes :)
[11:41] <daveake> 1 ID makes life simpler :/
[11:42] <jet> Someone was using my name for weeks.
[11:42] <gonzo_> even spot is not vgreat. And bloody expensive toi lose
[11:42] <jet> masquerading as me.
[11:42] <daveake> yup
[11:42] <daveake> Money spent on a SPOT is money you might as well have kept in your pocket
[11:42] <daveake> or your sponsors' pockets
[11:43] <jet> Btw. Is it better to overfill than underfill?
[11:43] <daveake> That said, although something like a habduino is going to be near 100% reliable, your ability to track may not be
[11:43] <gonzo_> or buying good wine to buy your way into peopl's gardens to retriev
[11:43] <daveake> over every time
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[11:43] <jet> I understand underfilling is very dangerous
[11:43] <craag> jet: you can register your nick to prevent other people grabbing it: https://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
[11:43] <jet> So overfilling sacrifices altitude for security
[11:43] <daveake> well you may lose it to the sea
[11:43] <Vaizki> spot trace is about 100 eur I think
[11:43] <Vaizki> + 100 eur/a in service fees
[11:44] <fsphil> ooch
[11:44] <daveake> one of the 5 skycademy flight was lost due to an underfill as someone miscalculated
[11:44] <gonzo_> also overfill means your chase will be shorter/ Poss good for a first flight
[11:44] <jet> http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article6103190.ece/ALTERNATES/s1227b/Lee-Nelson-throws-fake-money-at-Sepp-Blatter-during-FIFA-press-conference.jpg
[11:44] <daveake> keep OT pls
[11:44] <mattbrejza> did that happen months ago?
[11:45] <mattbrejza> *didnt
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[11:45] <jet> A bit tangential from the original "spot is expensive" convo.
[11:45] <daveake> Even for important flights I don't use a spot or gsm tracker
[11:45] <daveake> I just add a second radio tracker
[11:45] <gonzo_> daily mirrir, prob explains why I don't recognise wither of those names
[11:46] <fsphil> just a knob being a knob to a knob
[11:48] <jet> We have a dedicated tracking page that opens tomorrow
[11:48] <jet> track.thehermesproject.co.uk
[11:48] <jet> Includes live twitter feed, embedded HABHUB for our payload,
[11:48] <jet> SPOT tracker link + launch details
[11:51] <daveake> Have you radio-tracked a flight yet ?
[11:58] <daveake> I'm tracking a tumbleweed right now
[12:00] <fsphil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SK0QyHcCIw
[12:05] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03HABNL-04 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HABNL-04
[12:07] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/q7e635ylh6h3gnb/2015-08-28%2012.47.14.jpg?dl=0
[12:07] <eroomde> nu pcb
[12:08] <UpuWork> what do ?
[12:09] <UpuWork> digital gyroscope
[12:09] <UpuWork> nice
[12:09] <UpuWork> and ouch expensive
[12:10] <Laurenceb__> AD IMU unit?
[12:10] <Laurenceb__> is that an F4?
[12:11] <eroomde> yes
[12:11] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
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[12:12] <malgar> HB9RSU_: are you there? I'm receiving but not decoding, very noisy :(
[12:12] <Laurenceb__> eroomde: whats it for?
[12:12] <eroomde> rocket
[12:12] <Laurenceb__> ah cool
[12:13] <Laurenceb__> monitoring or active control?
[12:14] <Laurenceb__> and are you running RTOS or bare metal on the F4?
[12:14] <eroomde> active
[12:14] <eroomde> rtos
[12:14] <Laurenceb__> ah sweet
[12:14] <Laurenceb__> this is the gimballed motor project you showed at one of the earlier UKHAS conferences?
[12:15] Action: Laurenceb__ has been playing with unscented Kalman recently
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[12:15] <Laurenceb__> its really not too hard once you understand it, and performance seems to be improved, I'd recommend it for IMU
[12:16] <eroomde> way aheado ya
[12:16] <Laurenceb__> but there are other more important IMU tricks, like how you integrate magno, I found that needed a lot of attention with my EKF IMU
[12:16] <Laurenceb__> ooh you have unscented IMU running?
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[12:18] <eroomde> aye, with quaternions as the internal representation
[12:18] <Laurenceb__> well obviously :P
[12:19] <Laurenceb__> I guess that AD thing helps a lot with sensor stability
[12:19] <Laurenceb__> I had gyro bias in the state vector as well as experimenting with accel bias
[12:19] <Laurenceb__> but accel bias was often too unstable :-/
[12:20] <eroomde> fun fact - quaternions exist in two incompatible forms in the literature
[12:20] <eroomde> make sure you know which one is being used else disaster and days lost hunting bugs
[12:20] <eroomde> JPL redefined them (to be fair in a way that made a little morse sense)
[12:21] <Laurenceb__> http://i.imgur.com/XqrXxgY.png
[12:22] <Laurenceb__> that spike at the end isnt real :-/
[12:22] <Laurenceb__> thats with accel bias tracking
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[12:23] <eroomde> our ukf is a big one on this
[12:23] <eroomde> obviously accel and gyro tracking
[12:23] <eroomde> but also CoM tracking
[12:23] <eroomde> and CoM change velocity tracking
[12:24] <eroomde> (it's draining fuel appreciably each second)
[12:24] <Laurenceb__> I had pos,vel,attitude,gyro bias and accel bias
[12:24] <eroomde> and all sorts, really
[12:24] <Laurenceb__> so you track the position too?
[12:24] <eroomde> yes
[12:24] <eroomde> there are lots of states
[12:24] <Laurenceb__> do you use sensor inputs?
[12:24] <Laurenceb__> - other sensors
[12:24] <eroomde> yes
[12:24] <Laurenceb__> like fuel flow
[12:24] <Laurenceb__> ok I get it
[12:24] <eroomde> lidar, baro, mag
[12:24] <Laurenceb__> so basically everything you need in one UKF?
[12:24] <eroomde> chamber pressure
[12:24] <eroomde> engine angles
[12:24] <eroomde> yes
[12:25] <Laurenceb__> haha nice
[12:25] <jet> wow
[12:25] <Laurenceb__> do you model fuel slosh?
[12:25] <eroomde> no
[12:25] <jet> expanding polystyrene can just exploded
[12:25] <eroomde> waiting for that to be a problem
[12:25] <eroomde> hope it won't be
[12:25] <jet> nozzle jammed and polystyrene everywhere
[12:26] <eroomde> the aspect ratio of the tanks makes it less of a prob
[12:26] <jet> and it stuck to the chocolate box i was going to give the farmers....
[12:26] <eroomde> don't have food around work areas
[12:26] <eroomde> don't use expanding foam
[12:26] <eroomde> be cautious even of mugs of coffee
[12:26] <Laurenceb__> flame retardent expansing foam is awesome
[12:27] <Laurenceb__> erm autocorrect wtf
[12:27] <eroomde> i once ate quite a lot of solder paste accidently
[12:27] <Laurenceb__> eeek
[12:27] <eroomde> when my friend put a solder stencil (having just used it) face down on the top of my mug
[12:27] <eroomde> then moved it after to take to clean up
[12:27] <daveake> you were ill but decided to solder on ?
[12:27] <eroomde> leaving the rim of my mug covered in paste
[12:27] <eroomde> i then took a slurp and wondered why there was a slight burning sensation on my lips and down my throat
[12:27] <daveake> ouch
[12:27] <eroomde> and saw the rim covered in solder paste but for where my mouth had just been
[12:28] <Laurenceb__> lead free?
[12:28] <UpuWork> uff
[12:28] <eroomde> no
[12:28] <eroomde> f off
[12:28] <UpuWork> lol
[12:28] <eroomde> of course not lead free
[12:28] <eroomde> who the hell uses unleaded
[12:29] <Laurenceb__> I do for work
[12:30] <eroomde> i don't for work
[12:30] <eroomde> aerospace prortypes are still exempt
[12:30] <Laurenceb__> good for you lol
[12:35] <Darkside> heh
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[13:07] <FuzzyLemon> Hi! What's the best antenna to use for receiving? i always lose my transmitter's signal above about 3-4km altitude
[13:08] <mattbrejza> are you using the whip on the radio currently?
[13:08] <FuzzyLemon> this is one i'm using: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EX-35UV-2M-70CM-VHF-UHF-DUAL-BAND-ANTENNA-AERIAL-MINI-MAG-MOUNT-PL259-/191009459209
[13:08] <mattbrejza> should be fine :/
[13:08] <daveake> something's broken if that doesn't work
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[13:09] <daveake> As you have an IC-R20, make sure that the attenuation option is switched off
[13:09] <mattbrejza> i dont suppose its picking up an image of the signal?
[13:09] <mattbrejza> i think the r20 has decent filtering you cant usually find the image
[13:10] <daveake> could be
[13:10] <FuzzyLemon> how would I find the 'image of the signal'
[13:10] <daveake> but I'd expect that to disappear pretty much at launch
[13:10] <mattbrejza> hmm last launch we had the r20 you could hear the signal with the whip it comes with when it was like 30km altitude
[13:11] <mattbrejza> (the whip it comes with, inside the car)
[13:11] <mattbrejza> id suggest you do testing when someone next launches
[13:11] <daveake> and test the continuity of your aerial's cable
[13:11] <FuzzyLemon> ok i might do one next friday
[13:11] <daveake> You bought the R20 new or used ?
[13:12] <FuzzyLemon> r20 was new when i bought it
[13:12] <HB9RSU_> SPL1 landet... middle in the high mountains:
[13:12] <HB9RSU_> PositionLat:N47°04'20.32"Lon:E8°33'9.02"Date:2015-08-28Time:15:02:28http://maps.google.de/maps?q=47.07231,8.55250
[13:12] <LazyLeopard> That antenna will have a donut-shaped response at 70cms, with a null overhead.
[13:13] <craag> LazyLeopard: will work fine at 3-4km as long as you aren't *perfectly* underneath though
[13:13] <HB9RSU_> fortunately we had a additional GSM/GPS tracker on board
[13:14] <gonzo_> listen to 433.900MHz anywhere where there is any conurbation. That;s a good test of the rx system. Should be qyuite busy
[13:14] <LazyLeopard> I'd guess anything up to 15 degrees off vertical and you'd see significant attenuation.
[13:15] <LazyLeopard> ...especially as the payload's likely also got a vertical pointing down.
[13:15] <craag> LoS link budget with rtty is so massive that it often jsut works anyway :)
[13:15] <craag> also very rare to be within 15 degrees underneath it
[13:16] <craag> that's a small circle
[13:16] <LazyLeopard> 30 degrees in diameter?
[13:16] <LazyLeopard> Not that small
[13:17] <craag> it is when you're using the road network to chase
[13:17] <daveake> I've certainly had trouble decoding in the car with those aerials when I've basically followed the balloon to the landing
[13:17] <gonzo_> a diam about half the alt
[13:17] <daveake> I think it doesn't help that it wobbles around in the wind
[13:18] <Darkside> daveake: we solved that with a small cross-dipole antenna
[13:18] <daveake> I'm planning to change to 1/4 wave, stiffer wire
[13:18] <Darkside> on the car
[13:18] <daveake> cool
[13:18] <Darkside> that solved polarisation fading issues, and null-null issues
[13:18] <daveake> cheers noted :)
[13:18] <Darkside> cross dipole on roof of car has approx hemispherical radiation pattern, no null above the antenna
[13:19] <LazyLeopard> Yeah, a cross-dipole would be good for mobile tracking. I guess a QFH mmight also work, but be rather cumbersome.
[13:19] <gonzo_> but horizontal polorisation
[13:19] <mattbrejza> we make some QFH antennas for our first launch
[13:19] <mattbrejza> havnt bothered since
[13:20] <Darkside> we've had numerous issues when being directly below the payload
[13:20] <Darkside> hence switching to the cross-dipole style RX antenna
[13:20] <daveake> Both RTTY and LoRa suffered
[13:20] <daveake> I wasn't too bothered as that's when you lot track for me :p
[13:20] <gonzo_> Darkside, you mean a switchable dipole for just when under the hab?
[13:20] <Darkside> yes, how nice for you guy s:P
[13:20] <Darkside> gonzo_: no
[13:20] <Darkside> gonzo_: cross-dipole antenna, for use througout the flight
[13:20] <Darkside> ill see if i can dig up some pics
[13:21] <craag> would be cool to use MRC diversity with some sdrs
[13:21] <gonzo_> and H pol on the hab too?
[13:21] <Darkside> gonzo_: no
[13:21] <Darkside> gonzo_: ends up being a bit less loss than null to null
[13:21] <Darkside> and more stable
[13:22] <craag> gonzo_: when you're looking at a monopole nearly end-on, it can be H from your PoC
[13:22] <craag> *PoV
[13:22] <gonzo_> when you are not under the hab, you have cross pol issues
[13:22] <craag> Then as you lower elevation, you're looking at one of the dipoles nearly end on
[13:23] <craag> so polarisation matches there even if gain lobe doesn't :P
[13:23] <craag> with our link budget - I can see how it would work ok
[13:23] <gonzo_> I'm assuming cross dipoles both horisontal, turnstyle type
[13:23] <craag> yeah I remember a photo
[13:24] <craag> they're mounted on the side of the bonnet
[13:24] <Darkside> gonzo_: we are always under the hab :P
[13:24] <gonzo_> ah, ok
[13:24] <Darkside> gonzo_: unless we are a long way away , in which case we woul dbe using a higher gain antenna
[13:25] <Darkside> hrm
[13:26] <Darkside> https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t31.0-8/1537931_10204895039192781_2300456534698797184_o.jpg
[13:26] <Darkside> not sure if tha tlink will work
[13:26] <Darkside> you can see one of the types of cross-dipole we use on the rav
[13:26] <craag> ah nice
[13:26] <craag> different one, tilted
[13:26] <Darkside> that's out of a vaisala radiosonde recieve station which we were given
[13:27] <craag> that'd work nicely
[13:27] <Darkside> its designed for 400MHz, but its very broadband
[13:27] <Darkside> that plus the preamp it comes with works very nicely
[13:27] <Darkside> we also have an interdigital filter for use when we are chasing met bureau balloons :-)
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[13:33] <craag> one of those with a habamp in the tube would be fantastic I reckon.
[13:33] <craag> not that we've had any problems with reception at all
[13:33] <Darkside> maybee
[13:33] <russss> https://twitter.com/SinoDefence/status/637174369677123584
[13:33] <Darkside> this one has 2 coaxes running down into the car, where the combiner is
[13:34] <craag> yeah I'd stick the combiner in the tube too ideally
[13:34] <Darkside> https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10686854_10204881937865256_5328923161519088499_n.jpg?oh=fdaca6537321e9a34da950d9d8bbf752&oe=567DCBB0
[13:34] <Darkside> a bit of the combiner
[13:34] <Darkside> it has more inputs than just for the cross dipole
[13:34] <Darkside> the vaisala unit had the cross dipole and 4 other antennas
[13:34] <craag> ah
[13:35] <craag> wow
[13:35] <craag> I've seen their units with 8x yagis pointing out and upwards
[13:35] <gonzo_> wonder if anyone has tried one of the old datong DF units for chasing habs?
[13:35] <craag> I guess each of them has one these
[13:36] <eroomde> wow russss
[13:36] <Darkside> cross: i think that might be it
[13:36] <Darkside> craag: i mean
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[13:37] <eroomde> did that dutch student ever turn up again?
[13:37] <Darkside> gonzo_: datong is a doppler unit?
[13:37] <Darkside> gonzo_: we've done some doppler hunts for vaisala sondes, the analog ones really screw with most doppler units
[13:38] <Darkside> digital ones work better, but not really needed given the digital sondes have (most of) a gps
[13:40] <Darkside> if we're doing hunt purely with DF, we generally prefer spinning yagis: https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/10271361_10203362934091111_4198814382580050977_o.jpg
[13:40] <eroomde> i was thinking at the conf that graeme could probably get his accelerations directly off the gps doppler
[13:40] <craag> is that electrically controlled from in the car Darkside ?
[13:41] <gonzo_> yep, I thiunk they are doppler. Only work with a plane carrier, am/fm
[13:44] <gonzo_> have done similar. But with a roof bar over an open sun roof. A simple bearing (u bolt) for the upright and someone holding the other end
[13:44] <gonzo_> that was for 2mtr DF
[13:48] <Laurenceb__> el cheapo imu
[13:48] <Laurenceb__> http://www.st.com/web/catalog/tools/FM116/SC959/SS1532/LN1848/PF261635?sc=stm32l4-discovery
[13:49] <eroomde> i don't think IMUs have been financially that constraining for a while now
[13:49] <SpeedEvil> Unless you need them actually good
[13:51] <eroomde> well, you can still find them for cheaps
[13:52] <eroomde> if you know where to look
[13:52] <eroomde> let me start you off with this old box we pulled from somewhere for free https://www.dropbox.com/s/rlpzu8f92tnhz8a/2013-05-22%2015.22.38.jpg?dl=0
[13:52] <eroomde> spot the 3 axis ring laser gyro and vibrating quartz accelerometer
[13:53] <eroomde> that was quite a good scavenge, as scavenges go
[13:53] <qyx_> i wish i ordinarily pull such boxes from somewhere
[13:54] <Laurenceb__> heh
[14:00] <SpeedEvil> Legally operable transport would be awesome.
[14:01] <eroomde> can't get it MOT'd?
[14:04] <SpeedEvil> Can't pass the test due to health issues.
[14:04] <SpeedEvil> I can drive OK for 15 minutes reliably, if I pick and choose when.
[14:04] <SpeedEvil> But...
[14:05] Action: SpeedEvil wants his Icar. Or Gcar.
[14:09] <Vaizki> oh! 5.5 hours of UKHAS conference 2015 on youtube :O
[14:09] <adamgreig> I recommend skipping the last hour and a half or so ;)
[14:09] <Vaizki> that's 2 evenings worth of tv right there
[14:10] <SpeedEvil> :)
[14:10] <Vaizki> adamgreig, haha I was just watching you explaining LO and mixing on a notepad :D
[14:10] <adamgreig> :X
[14:10] <Vaizki> as a random sample
[14:11] <Vaizki> don't worry I'll submit my grades early and let you out of your misery
[14:16] <eroomde> it's a great night in
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[14:40] <Laurenceb__> I'm already getting trolld http://i.imgur.com/iOqsoM9.jpg
[14:41] <SpeedEvil> :)
[14:41] <eroomde> readerror?
[14:43] <Laurenceb__> yup
[14:43] <Geoff-G8DHE_> :)
[14:44] <Laurenceb__> microsoft hit a new low with outlook web app
[14:44] <Laurenceb__> this is horrific
[14:45] <eroomde> sorry about that
[14:45] <eroomde> didn't know he knew you
[14:46] <Laurenceb__> heh
[14:51] Nick change: KyleYankan -> CaptainHammer
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[15:07] <jet> Just come back from 2 hours of cleaning expanded polystyrene off my hands.
[15:08] <jet> I have done a final test run on all the cameras,
[15:08] <jet> Kodak sp360 came in at 3h18m
[15:09] <Laurenceb__> jet: I suspect thats polyurethane not polystyrene
[15:09] <SpeedEvil> jet: spraying with water means that the EPS is much easier to clean
[15:09] <Laurenceb__> there are some solvents that help a lot when cleaning up
[15:09] <daveake> Use extruded not expanded
[15:09] <Laurenceb__> i forget what off the top of my head :-/
[15:09] <daveake> Muhc much easier to work with
[15:09] <SpeedEvil> Also, use a wet, thin-bladed knife to cut with.
[15:09] <SpeedEvil> no dust
[15:09] <jet> I chucked the can in the bin.
[15:10] <Laurenceb__> I think he is talking about a foam canister
[15:10] <jet> It exploded.
[15:10] <Laurenceb__> yeah
[15:10] <Laurenceb__> thats PU
[15:10] <daveake> ugggghh
[15:10] <daveake> evil stuff
[15:10] <SpeedEvil> jet: htose are fun
[15:10] <Laurenceb__> when its hardly cured white spirit works IIRC
[15:10] <daveake> what's that for ?
[15:10] <jet> It's the worst thing I have ever purchased
[15:10] <daveake> (the tin)
[15:10] <Laurenceb__> but there are better solvents for it
[15:10] <jet> I tried methylated spirits, white spirit, soap, water, sandpaper
[15:10] <Laurenceb__> hmm
[15:10] <jet> iron wire scrubber (stuck to my hand)
[15:10] <Laurenceb__> eeek
[15:11] <daveake> best bet is to gorw more skin and wait for it to fall off
[15:11] <daveake> grow
[15:11] <jet> It's mostly off now
[15:11] <daveake> evil stuff
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> Does oil work?
[15:11] <Laurenceb__> yeah the moisture from your skin will cure it on skin instantly
[15:11] <jet> Sandpapering and scraping with moisturising cream worked
[15:11] <daveake> what were you going to do with it before it exploded ?
[15:11] <Laurenceb__> so it will be very hard to cure
[15:11] <Laurenceb__> I know
[15:11] <Laurenceb__> petrol can work
[15:11] <Laurenceb__> lol
[15:11] <jet> I was going to pad out the payload
[15:11] <daveake> ugh no
[15:11] <daveake> just use blocks of foam polystyrene
[15:12] <daveake> anything light
[15:12] <jet> I will now.
[15:12] <jet> I assumed I could use the spray
[15:12] <jet> But something went wrong. It turned green after exploding
[15:12] <jet> My hands looked like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpxQdbtunz0
[15:15] <jet> So yeah I just recorded 20.8GB of video in 3h18m
[15:17] <mattbrejza> bear in mind that video of stationary stuff takes up less space than moving stuff
[15:17] <mfa298> other useful hint for working with sticky/messy things, get some cheap disposable gloves - makes cleaning hands much easier
[15:18] <jet> mfa298 I know that now :)
[15:18] <jet> mattbrejza Yes, it was moving stuff. I stuck it in the kitchen everyone's in there
[15:18] <jet> Plus this camera doesn't compress.
[15:18] <mattbrejza> it must somewhat
[15:18] <jet> A little. but it's a 360deg camera
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[15:19] <jet> The other action cam only took up 15gb in the same time
[15:19] <mattbrejza> but yea, 32GB is probably fine then
[15:20] <jet> I have class 10 32gb for all :)
[15:20] <daveake> The Hero 4 at 1920/1080/25 has a higher bitrate, and 32GB isn't quite enough for HAB, but other cams I've used have been fine at the same resolution
[15:21] <daveake> ^ Hero 4 Silver
[15:21] <jet> Hero 4 is ridiculously expensive
[15:21] <daveake> Black is higher still
[15:21] <daveake> No it isn't
[15:21] <jet> Unless you need the 4K
[15:21] <daveake> No again
[15:21] <daveake> It's much much sharper than the 3
[15:21] <jet> ofc.
[15:22] <mattbrejza> since when was any of these necessary in the first place ;)
[15:22] <daveake> :)
[15:22] <mattbrejza> *this
[15:22] <jet> But by comparison, the contour ROAM2s are £100
[15:22] <mattbrejza> and the 808 #16 cameras are £30...
[15:22] <daveake> When you have a commercial job where their shiny thingy in front of the lens, it needs to be sharp
[15:22] <daveake> which the Hero 4 achieves but the 3 doesn't
[15:22] <jet> Commercial job you can charge them whatever you want :)
[15:22] <daveake> No again
[15:23] <jet> Can't warrant an extra £300 for gopros
[15:23] <jet> Especially considering they both do 1080p
[15:23] <jet> I'm not saying gopros aren't better
[15:23] <jet> Just for me personally, they don't warrant the extra cost. Especially for HAB.
[15:23] <daveake> Well, you have a budget and customers
[15:24] <Laurenceb__> whats max frame rate from the 4?
[15:24] <daveake> and it's up to you to find that balance
[15:24] <jet> That's true ;)
[15:24] <jet> You are the Mr. HAB legend
[15:24] <daveake> no again :)
[15:24] <jet> You command authority of HABers globally
[15:24] <mattbrejza> i think this was a long winded way to say its all relative
[15:24] <jet> The name Dave Akerman is whispered in hushed awe among the scientific balloon community
[15:24] <daveake> lol yes
[15:24] <daveake> :)
[15:25] <jet> Do you ever get fanclubbed?
[15:25] <jet> Like, screaming HABers from this IRC crowding around your house
[15:25] <jet> Begging for autographs
[15:25] <mattbrejza> you should have seen him at teh conference...
[15:25] <UpuWork> I'm in awe of his T-Shirt collection
[15:25] <daveake> Laurenceb 120fps at 720p
[15:25] <daveake> https://gopro.com/support/articles/hero4-camera-battery-life
[15:26] <daveake> scientific? no I don't do that
[15:26] <daveake> I do silly mascots
[15:26] <daveake> and potatoes
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[15:26] <jet> Yes most people class it as scientific
[15:26] <jet> Until they do it.
[15:27] <jet> I was lost on what to do until I'd read your site and the wiki back to front
[15:27] <daveake> yet you bought a spot
[15:27] <daveake> I failed
[15:28] Action: mfa298 doubts anyone has read the wiki back to front. No one knows everything that's on the wiki!
[15:28] <daveake> back to front may well be the optimal direction
[15:29] <adamgreig> I've not heard of any spots failing recently
[15:29] <adamgreig> if anything the converse
[15:29] <UpuWork> no they work
[15:29] <UpuWork> but radio is better as you know where it is all the time
[15:29] <jet> Of course.
[15:29] <jet> Which is why you should buy a habduino
[15:30] <adamgreig> or a pits, of course!
[15:30] <UpuWork> or make it yourself
[15:30] <daveake> I doubt Upu cares either way :)
[15:30] <mattbrejza> other flight computers are avaliable
[15:30] <UpuWork> :)
[15:30] <jet> Now only £82.99 + £31.44 radio module!
[15:30] <jet> In stock at HAB supplies today
[15:32] <jet> Quote code HAB39 and receive FREE pink foam in the habduino box!
[15:32] <UpuWork> don't even need to quote that tbh
[15:32] <jet> damnit! i was trying to make you money...
[15:32] <jet> I love my pink foam sheet
[15:33] <daveake> pinkhab.com is available ....
[15:34] <daveake> (silence as Upu registers it)
[15:34] <UpuWork> lol
[15:34] <mattbrejza> na, get the tld .hab
[15:38] <jet> I am guessing daveake is the owner of SPOTsucks.com
[15:40] <craag> we haven't got anything against SPOT
[15:40] <craag> they're cool little bits of tech
[15:41] <jet> ok
[15:41] <jet> GSMsucks.com
[15:41] <craag> but for the same price, you can use the radio solution that works far better
[15:41] <craag> (for hab)
[15:41] <craag> heh I think I'd own that one
[15:42] <jet> What is your opinion on sentintospace then?
[15:42] <jet> They made the specsavers advert and featured on sky news
[15:42] <jet> It looks like they sell cheap chinese trackers, balloons and chutes as their own?
[15:43] <craag> yeah they sell the cheap tk102b
[15:43] <craag> its about 15 quid off amazon
[15:43] <craag> they can be really unreliable, even in good signal
[15:43] <UpuWork> Sent into space use radio trackers
[15:43] <eroomde> i don't think anyone here would recommend sentintospace for anything
[15:44] <craag> UpuWork: I don't think they sell them yet though? just for their 'customer' flights?
[15:44] <eroomde> i don't understand how uni teams can be bad
[15:44] <UpuWork> they have one they use its not great though
[15:44] <UpuWork> looses lock all the time
[15:44] <UpuWork> and doesn't make a check sum
[15:44] <jet> ik, but they have a very nice website
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[15:44] <jet> And get a lot of media attention
[15:45] <jet> Ultimately though it's a moneymaking scheme. They rebrand chinese stuff
[15:45] <eroomde> not that much
[15:45] <adamgreig> yea really not much media attention
[15:45] <adamgreig> sky news is not a high bar
[15:45] <jet> Their prices are pretty awful
[15:45] <jet> They sell an unbranded 1200g balloon for £85
[15:45] <eroomde> many people in here have had a little 24hrs circus at one point or other
[15:46] <mfa298> I think I've seen daveake on TV more than stuff sentintospace have done.
[15:46] <jet> £30 for a radar reflector
[15:46] <jet> LOL £7 for duct tape
[15:46] <craag> don't use a radar reflector
[15:46] <UpuWork> ?
[15:46] <UpuWork> My pink gaffer is £13 a roll
[15:46] <eroomde> anyway jet concentrate on your forthcoming flight
[15:46] <eroomde> save this meta chat for laters
[15:47] <jet> I have already prepared everything
[15:47] <craag> nope
[15:47] <jet> Cameras charging
[15:47] <craag> wrong attitude ;)
[15:47] <jet> lol I can't do anything else.
[15:47] <UpuWork> tracked anyone elses flight ?
[15:48] <jet> yup
[15:48] <craag> have you thought through how to construct/use the filling setup?
[15:48] <jet> Already done a demo by partially inflating a bin bag.
[15:48] <jet> With tying off procedure etc.
[15:49] <craag> :)
[15:49] <jet> And I've tested everything
[15:50] <craag> got a couple of spares of everything ready in another box?
[15:50] <mfa298> thoguht about all the possible failure modes (both for balloon and tracking)
[15:50] <craag> I am clutching at straws here, you do appear to be well prepared :)
[15:50] <mfa298> e.g. what happens when the laptop battery goes flat, no phone signal,
[15:51] <craag> but you can always prep more
[15:51] <jet> Laptop battery won't go flat
[15:51] <jet> We have a car inverter to power it. 300w.
[15:51] <craag> got offline maps on your phone?
[15:51] <jet> No. My phone is a bad moto G with no storage space
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[15:51] <craag> save some mapping screenshots of prediction to the laptop then
[15:52] <jet> But I have a 3G dongle and I checked that the area had good coverage
[15:52] <mfa298> access to paper maps for when the phone stops working (and know how to use them)
[15:52] <UpuWork> jet are you part of this Hermes project ?
[15:52] <jet> upuwork I am the director :)
[15:52] <adamgreig> and a backpack with a tent and sleeping bag and first aid kit in case you get stranded? come on guys
[15:52] <jet> or so I call myself.
[15:52] <craag> lol adamgreig
[15:52] <adamgreig> better bring a few barrels of preserved food just in case
[15:52] <UpuWork> when is the launch ?
[15:52] <adamgreig> plus a jerry can of petrol
[15:52] <jet> Tomorrow at 10am
[15:52] <adamgreig> perhaps your passport in case you need to quickly dash into france
[15:52] <jet> I already have all this stuff.
[15:52] <UpuWork> whats the current predictions ?
[15:53] <jet> I'm bringing my computer
[15:53] <jet> 6 cars
[15:53] <craag> remember the boat!
[15:53] <jet> A caravan
[15:53] <jet> And the potted plant.
[15:53] <mfa298> adamgreig: well the last one of those has happened before hasn't it!
[15:53] <adamgreig> not sure why you're getting the full interrogation given you appear to be more prepared than most of the people quizzing you usually are
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[15:53] <adamgreig> mfa298: oh it's all happened
[15:53] <jet> upuwork around cambridge/ely
[15:53] <adamgreig> I was once very glad for my six month supply of emergency rations
[15:53] <adamgreig> that was a hell of a recovery
[15:53] <UpuWork> link it
[15:53] <jet> link what?
[15:53] <jet> the prediction?
[15:54] <UpuWork> yup
[15:54] <jet> http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=e1ae0ff0b7db22469e8decdcc4d9ec0eec74a244
[15:55] <craag> yeah tbh jet you sound better prepared than I've ever been at 3am on the day of my own launch :P
[15:55] <jet> I'm not a person to take risks
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[15:55] <UpuWork> what balloon are you using ?
[15:55] <jet> Hwoyee 1200g
[15:55] <jet> With a payload weight of approximately 1400g
[15:56] <UpuWork> apart from the distance thats a great prediction even if you over/under fill/ burst early/late its not going anywhere daft
[15:56] <daveake> The 1200's often go higher than predicted, but that won't affect the landing position much at all
[15:56] <eroomde> yeah - landing in a very quiet area
[15:56] <adamgreig> except lakenheath
[15:56] <UpuWork> I will bestow you 100 HAB points if you land on Elsworth
[15:56] <adamgreig> hehe
[15:56] <UpuWork> 1000 if you land on Amell
[15:56] <daveake> I've tried that one :)
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[15:56] <mfa298> you are sounding more prepared than a lot of people (I just have a thing against people saying they've tested everything - my experience is that there's always something else to test or that you've forgotton about)
[15:56] <daveake> yup ^
[15:56] <jet> My only concern is underfilling
[15:57] <jet> As if I do, it'll go into the sea.
[15:57] <daveake> Just assume you've forgotten something, and try and find out what
[15:57] <UpuWork> if you underfil
[15:57] <UpuWork> and it goes high
[15:57] <UpuWork> you're getting wet
[15:57] <UpuWork> so put lots of gas in
[15:57] <adamgreig> gotta underfill down to 3m/s ascent to hit the water
[15:57] <fsphil> carefully measure the lift to what the calculator tells you
[15:57] <UpuWork> yep
[15:57] <adamgreig> has been done I suppose
[15:57] <jet> I have a fishing scale which measures to the nearest 5g.
[15:57] <fsphil> then add a bit more
[15:57] <UpuWork> but good luck
[15:58] <jet> It will be attached to the balloon fill tube near the neck
[15:58] <chimpusmaximus> Just so i'm clear what time you launching
[15:58] <jet> chimpusmaximus 10am
[15:58] <UpuWork> you've picked a great area to land and will probably be recieved down to 300 meters
[15:58] <adamgreig> were you the one having problems with the launch site and the early-morning-only permission?
[15:58] <jet> yes I was
[15:58] <adamgreig> all sorted?
[15:58] <jet> I managed to contact a dairy farmer
[15:58] <adamgreig> nice
[15:58] <adamgreig> and shift the notam?
[15:58] <jet> Who I will give a box of chocs
[15:58] <adamgreig> good plan
[15:59] <jet> Although I've had to eat the box of chocs i originally bought
[15:59] <mattbrejza> "had to"
[15:59] <mattbrejza> i feel for you
[15:59] <jet> because I covered the box in expanded foam
[15:59] <chimpusmaximus> jet: thanks, saw the 3am and got confused.. hopefully can track as it gets closer to me.
[15:59] <mattbrejza> all that chocolate...
[15:59] <fsphil> hate it when that happens
[15:59] <daveake> Don't forget the bacon butties before launch
[15:59] <jet> I know.
[15:59] <daveake> I think that's the only thing you've missed :)
[15:59] <jet> I was so annoyed
[15:59] <UpuWork> also jet
[15:59] <jet> ?
[15:59] <UpuWork> don't mess about once launched
[15:59] <UpuWork> get going
[15:59] <jet> ik
[15:59] <jet> wait no
[15:59] <jet> I'm going home
[15:59] <UpuWork> its a fair drive
[15:59] <mattbrejza> do you have a good way to measure lift?
[15:59] <jet> I'll collect it once it's landed
[16:00] <jet> you lot are going to track it
[16:00] <UpuWork> eh ?
[16:00] <jet> I'm going home for my curry lunch
[16:00] <adamgreig> haha now you're getting the hang of it jet
[16:00] <adamgreig> I would say the pub
[16:00] <UpuWork> you trolling me ?
[16:00] <adamgreig> but maybe in a couple years
[16:00] <UpuWork> :)
[16:00] <jet> yes
[16:00] <fsphil> lol
[16:00] <jet> mattbrejza I use a fishing scale
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[16:00] <mattbrejza> analgoue one?
[16:00] <jet> No, digital
[16:00] <jet> Fresh batteries, accuracy within 5g
[16:00] <mattbrejza> yea theyre not great
[16:01] <craag> it'll be ok as long as you don't have susf-type wind
[16:01] <jet> I do actually have a question about that
[16:01] <mattbrejza> its best to fill a plastic bag with the right weight and see when it becomes just boyent
[16:01] <mattbrejza> craag: it wasnt even windy...
[16:01] <adamgreig> you reckon?
[16:01] <adamgreig> I like the scales
[16:01] <adamgreig> not as good as a helium flow meter mind..
[16:01] <daveake> ggrrrr
[16:01] <jet> I plan to attach the fishing scales by cord to the neck filler
[16:01] <daveake> yes the fish scales work well
[16:01] <craag> mattbrejza: that was a luggage scale, and it kept picking a value and freezing on it
[16:02] <jet> And then the other end of the scales by cord to the ground (tool box)
[16:02] <mattbrejza> adamgreig: digital ones kinda average out or give you the maximum
[16:02] <adamgreig> not good ones..
[16:02] <craag> which wasn't even an average
[16:02] <craag> just the last sample lol
[16:02] <jet> My question is,
[16:02] <adamgreig> jet: usually I just hold the scales rather than hope they stay attached to a toolbox
[16:02] <mattbrejza> well either way its a good idea to have a backup
[16:02] <jet> I am tying them
[16:02] <jet> Neck lift is the total lift I should have right?
[16:02] <adamgreig> yeh, the lift measured at the neck
[16:03] <adamgreig> technically you should subtract the weight of the filling tube but you'll do better forgetting about that
[16:03] <jet> So the scale should measure the neck lift subtracted by the weight of the fill tube
[16:03] <adamgreig> hah, you're way on top of things
[16:03] <jet> I intend to ensure that the fill tube is not taught
[16:03] <jet> Is that correct?
[16:03] <adamgreig> yes, all the lift force must go through the scales
[16:03] <adamgreig> so the fill tube can't be taught (shouldn't ever be as it's not really load-bearing)
[16:03] <jet> (apart from the bit of plastic in the balloon neck?)
[16:03] <adamgreig> right.
[16:04] <jet> Because the balloon neck filler weighs about 30g
[16:04] <adamgreig> great
[16:04] <jet> So if the neck lift says 3000g
[16:04] <jet> Then I want the monitor to read 2970?
[16:04] <adamgreig> technically, yes
[16:04] <jet> I plan to overfill by a few hundred grams
[16:04] <adamgreig> in reality, the thing will probably be noisier than 200g due to slight gusts
[16:04] <adamgreig> yea, good plan.
[16:04] <adamgreig> and thus I tend to ignore the mass of the fill tube
[16:04] <jet> That way no risk of sea-ditching
[16:05] <adamgreig> indeed
[16:05] <jet> At worst it bursts prematurely
[16:05] <adamgreig> 3kg lift is a fair chunk by the way
[16:05] <adamgreig> you will have to be holding that upright
[16:05] <adamgreig> for a while
[16:05] <mattbrejza> are you sure you need 3kg?
[16:05] <mattbrejza> seems too high
[16:05] <jet> no, i put in a wrong value last night
[16:05] <jet> it's 2500
[16:06] <adamgreig> that's a bit nicer
[16:06] <jet> think i chose the wrong balloon.
[16:06] <jet> Is 32000m a good altitude?
[16:06] <jet> for bursting?
[16:06] <adamgreig> yea
[16:07] <jet> also,
[16:07] <jet> does a balloon with air in burst the same as one with helium?
[16:07] <jet> I am dragging up a party balloon with backers' messages in
[16:07] <jet> If I fill it with helium it could potentially tangle with wires
[16:07] <craag> it'll burst the same
[16:07] <jet> But if I fill it with air, it'll just dangle below the payload
[16:07] <jet> I intend to slightly underfill it so it doesn't burst TOO early
[16:08] <mattbrejza> in the way of the camera?
[16:08] <jet> No. under the payload.
[16:08] <craag> you'll need to underfill it a lot I think
[16:08] <adamgreig> will the camera capture it?
[16:08] <jet> Probably not
[16:08] <jet> The sp360 might
[16:08] <craag> given the pressure at 32km compared to ground.
[16:09] <jet> I know
[16:09] <jet> It's one of the big party balloons
[16:09] <jet> Not the standard piddly ones
[16:09] <craag> :)
[16:09] <craag> Sounds cool
[16:09] <jet> Judging by your reaction, do I win most prepared HABer of all time?
[16:09] <daveake> close
[16:10] <craag> we'll give the verdict after the flight :P
[16:10] <craag> but sounding pretty darn good
[16:10] <mattbrejza> perhaps for 1st flight anyway
[16:10] <jet> by all means follow at track.thehermesproject.co.uk
[16:10] <adamgreig> yea you gotta get it back to count ;)
[16:10] <jet> we have the twitter feed (AND SPOT!!! :DDD) on there as well
[16:11] <jet> opens at midnight
[16:11] <jet> To be honest I probably have the heaviest first payload as well. 1.4kg.
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[16:12] <eroomde> lolno
[16:12] <eroomde> but by modern standards, quite a heavy first payload
[16:13] <mattbrejza> http://gallery.apexhab.org/Apex-I/Finishing_Touches/Payload was heavier
[16:13] <jet> holy crap
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[16:13] <daveake> "harmless" :/
[16:14] <daveake> Ed will be along in a mo with something much heavier
[16:14] <jet> my sign is slightly more intimidating...
[16:14] <jet> https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/004/277/464/0e0bc7d4b67c8884514e2e9bd804e172_original.jpg?v=1438952329&w=639&fit=max&auto=format&q=92&s=e2537fe99a4e454cdbae3ed70bdc869b
[16:14] <jet> https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/004/277/461/5d5e1bcefe06e4ab5ccf1df447112bf4_original.jpg?v=1438952297&w=639&fit=max&auto=format&q=92&s=5e80af79d993a7f21690dd342a0c42e4
[16:15] <mattbrejza> that plastic was the corrigated stuff
[16:15] <daveake> correx ?
[16:15] <mattbrejza> so it had air pockets to soften the landing...
[16:15] <craag> what's the antenna on the second photo?
[16:15] <mattbrejza> gps
[16:15] <jet> nein
[16:16] <jet> gps anntenna inside the payload
[16:16] <mattbrejza> oh not my photo
[16:16] <craag> jet: what is it?
[16:17] <daveake> one last question, as you seem to have thought of all the important stuff, have you checked that the spot and habduino still get a gps lock in the payload with everything running (i.e. cameras recording) ?
[16:18] <jet> http://www.rfsolutions.co.uk/acatalog/info_FLEXI_SMA90_433.html
[16:18] <jet> Out of stock atm
[16:18] <craag> oh no
[16:18] <craag> NOPE
[16:18] <jet> Don't worry, I tested it
[16:18] <mattbrejza> a good
[16:18] <mattbrejza> i was worried then
[16:18] <adamgreig> what testing did you do, out of interest?
[16:19] <daveake> jet is that 434MHz antenna pointing sideways? Needs to point down
[16:20] <jet> I cannot point it down
[16:20] <jet> I have tried
[16:20] <jet> The box won't allow me
[16:20] <daveake> it's in the wrong place in the box then
[16:20] <adamgreig> stupid boxes, always getting in the way
[16:20] <daveake> or the wrong aerial
[16:20] <daveake> needs to point down
[16:20] <daveake> ^^^^^
[16:20] <jet> I tested at close range and distance
[16:20] <daveake> close << far
[16:20] <jet> Why does it need to point down?
[16:21] <daveake> because radio
[16:21] <jet> Surely it emits in all directions?
[16:21] <daveake> nope
[16:21] <adamgreig> well it's probably not far off for that antenna
[16:21] <daveake> hah
[16:21] <adamgreig> specifically though it won't emit strongly in the direction it's pointing
[16:21] <mattbrejza> we tracked steves plane fine
[16:21] <adamgreig> so if your payload starts spinning around, it will spin the not-emitting direction around too, which makes it a bit harder to receive
[16:22] <adamgreig> yea I'm sure it'd be fine, w/e
[16:22] <daveake> and Upu's plane
[16:22] <daveake> same deal
[16:22] <mfa298> the signal strength is a bit like a donut around the antenna, if it points out the side most of the signal won't get to the ground (+ other issues)
[16:22] <jet> It's literally not possible to angle it
[16:22] <jet> Because of the thickness of the box
[16:22] <jet> and it's attached to a habduino
[16:22] <adamgreig> if you have it pointing straight down, then payload spinning doesn't affect it so much, which is nice
[16:22] <daveake> ok 50- baud doesn't exactly push the capabilities
[16:22] <daveake> just expect a lot of "damn signal keeps disappearing" messages if you're in #ha during the chase :)
[16:22] <jet> don't worry, it's a nice antenna :)
[16:23] <craag> jet: poke it through the bottom of the box?
[16:23] <jet> The bottom of the box isn't very thick
[16:23] <jet> It would crack
[16:23] <jet> Plus everything's glued
[16:23] <jet> is it a major issue?
[16:23] <adamgreig> eh
[16:23] <adamgreig> at least you have an antenna
[16:24] <jet> ...? who doesn't?
[16:24] <adamgreig> you've presumably come across the dodgy looking home made things many people use
[16:24] <adamgreig> those are probably easier, cheaper and definitely going to work better
[16:24] <jet> that is correct
[16:24] <adamgreig> assuming you don't screw them up
[16:24] <adamgreig> what you have here is generally not a very great antenna for the frequency in use
[16:24] <adamgreig> bit too small and stuff
[16:24] <jet> The habduino site actually has a picture with one of these on
[16:24] <jet> It is a 434mhz antenna
[16:24] <adamgreig> and pointing it in the wrong direction doesn't help matters
[16:24] <adamgreig> it says it is
[16:24] <adamgreig> but a lot of things will claim to be a 434MHz antenna
[16:24] <adamgreig> there are antennas and there are antennas, basically
[16:25] <adamgreig> so it will work and probably be fine for this and most flights
[16:25] <adamgreig> there are a bunch of reasons it will not be the best antenna it could be for you
[16:25] <mfa298> the page for that antenna makes it sound like a 1/4 whip so would ideally want a groundplane as well.
[16:25] <adamgreig> they start simple, like pointing in the wrong direction and "too small", and quickly move into radio engineering territory
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[16:25] <adamgreig> for this flight I think don't worry about it
[16:25] <adamgreig> but maybe if you do a second flight you could spend some time thinking about antennas
[16:26] <adamgreig> especially if you wanted to start sending back images
[16:26] <adamgreig> jet: not trying to slag off your antenna or anything
[16:26] <adamgreig> they're nice for some things and I've used stuff like them in the past
[16:27] <adamgreig> here, like this
[16:27] <adamgreig> https://www.dropbox.com/sc/nxx2t6ibmirq3zi/AADZzd3RbEfhniOInNklcZJEa
[16:27] <adamgreig> that's what's inside (most likely)
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[16:28] <adamgreig> but you plug these things into expensive test equipment and they're not as good as you might want or the manufacturer might claim
[16:28] <adamgreig> https://www.dropbox.com/s/x0w6hec2usuexbt/IMG_20150824_140845.jpg?dl=0
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[16:29] <daveake> I've seen a "433" antenna, which inside was about an inch of wire
[16:30] <adamgreig> they do vary, mostly from bad to worse
[16:30] <adamgreig> that one was quite upsetting, 5:1 at 433, lol
[16:30] <jet> I did opt for a proper one
[16:30] <mattbrejza> (im not sure we're helping here)
[16:30] <jet> As opposed to one off ebay
[16:31] <jet> priced at £99p
[16:31] <jet> from hong kong
[16:31] <adamgreig> hah indeed
[16:31] <jet> I sourced it from a proper UK electronics company
[16:31] <jet> That has a big market in aerials
[16:31] <adamgreig> sadly these days the one you buy from a "proper" shop in the UK is probably just an up-priced one from hong kong ;)
[16:31] <adamgreig> there are fundamental limits on how good an antenna that size can be at 434MHz
[16:32] <daveake> I had one from Farnell that basically didn't work at all
[16:32] <mfa298> !wiki payload antenna
[16:32] <SpacenearUS> 03mfa298: Wiki page 03payload_antenna (guides) - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:payload_antenna
[16:32] <SpacenearUS> 03mfa298: Wiki page 03projects:picoatlas:picoatlasi - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:picoatlas:picoatlasi?s[]=payload&amp;s[]=antenna
[16:32] <adamgreig> and honestly for £4 that's probably just an ebay job
[16:32] <jet> I can receive well with it at distance
[16:32] <adamgreig> doesn't quote the matching or bandwidth or have a datasheet or anything else you'd want
[16:32] <jet> And if I turn up gain - massive
[16:32] <mfa298> one of those probably costs well under 99p and is potentially better than your UK supplier one
[16:33] <mattbrejza> tbh these days you could probably forget to connect the atenna but youll get it back as the nearby ham as a massive yagi on their house
[16:33] <adamgreig> I like to use something like http://www.rohde-schwarz.co.uk/en/product/ad033v3-productstartpage_63493-11861.html
[16:34] <mattbrejza> tahts basically a wideband bit of wire?
[16:34] <adamgreig> that's not wideband...
[16:34] <jet> it's a bit of wire in plastic
[16:35] <mattbrejza> widerband then
[16:35] <jet> the difference is the plastic is grey and injection moulded
[16:35] <mattbrejza> 2.0 VSWR
[16:35] <adamgreig> that's not plastic on the R&S antenna...
[16:35] <jet> By the way
[16:35] <jet> Is it possible to model the drift of tiny paper messages?
[16:35] <adamgreig> it's 85kg
[16:36] <adamgreig> yea it is
[16:36] <jet> They are about 0.3g each
[16:36] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: http://www.rohde-schwarz.co.uk/en/products/radiomonitoring/antennas/monitoring-antennas_229505.html
[16:36] <mattbrejza> 80-2000 nice
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[16:37] <adamgreig> I like http://www.rohde-schwarz.co.uk/en/product/hl471-productstartpage_63493-9053.html
[16:37] <adamgreig> "extremely small dimensions" under features
[16:37] <adamgreig> let's see...
[16:37] <jet> you like?
[16:37] <jet> as in, own?
[16:37] <jet> or dream about?
[16:37] <adamgreig> 11 metres by 9m
[16:38] <jet> so dream about.
[16:38] <mattbrejza> well for 7MHz..
[16:38] <adamgreig> the size isn't really the issue
[16:38] <adamgreig> so much as it would cost more than.. well
[16:38] <adamgreig> it's Very Expensive
[16:38] <mattbrejza> obviously
[16:38] <adamgreig> nice antenna though
[16:38] <jet> i reckon you could JUST squeeze it onto a pico flight.
[16:38] <adamgreig> that's the spirit
[16:39] <adamgreig> HF pico
[16:39] <mattbrejza> 'merica pico
[16:39] <jet> lol
[16:39] <adamgreig> antenna's only 110kg
[16:39] <mattbrejza> odd, its got a higher rx bandwidth
[16:39] <jet> has anyone tried habing a person?
[16:39] <jet> like, tying together a load of 3000g balloons
[16:39] <adamgreig> yea
[16:39] <daveake> I had someone ask me to do that to him
[16:39] <adamgreig> all the time
[16:39] <adamgreig> wouldn't recommend it
[16:40] <LazyLeopard> NASA-style pico...
[16:40] <jet> would also cost$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ helium,
[16:40] <adamgreig> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/canada/11722381/Canadian-man-arrested-after-balloon-chair-flight.html
[16:40] <adamgreig> that was this july
[16:40] <adamgreig> but it keeps happening
[16:40] <adamgreig> don't do it
[16:40] <jet> 150!?
[16:40] <jet> that's it?
[16:41] <mattbrejza> just put 100kg into the burst predictor and see what it gives you ;)
[16:41] <daveake> A large balloon can easily take a kilo to well over 30km
[16:41] <daveake> 100x = 100kg
[16:41] <daveake> which is about 1 of me
[16:41] <daveake> but, like my correspondent, you'd have to be barking
[16:42] <mattbrejza> if you include all teh bacon youll need for the trip
[16:42] <daveake> OK 110kg
[16:42] <jet> 12000 on helium
[16:42] <jonsowman> 22222222222222222222222222222222
[16:42] <jonsowman> um
[16:42] <adamgreig> 66666666666666666
[16:42] <jet> I'm 80kg so I fit
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[16:42] <jonsowman> pls ignore me
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[16:43] <jet> jonsowman kind of hard when you spam 222222222222
[16:43] <jet> got to do some last minute loading and gluing. ciao.
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[16:56] <fsphil> nice launch site: http://ssdv.habhub.org/images/2015-08-28--11-12-36-SPL1-30CC.jpeg
[16:59] <fsphil> http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=d120582a6e59de8fc3df1f43dffbcbb9f9feb17b
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[18:37] <ulfr> Jesus flying christ.
[18:37] <ulfr> Is there a distro that gnuradio/rtl_sdr works better than others?
[18:37] <ulfr> This is driving me nuts.
[18:39] <adamgreig> ubuntu should be fine
[18:39] <adamgreig> what are you using?
[18:39] <adamgreig> you might find it easier to install gnuradio from the PPA, or e.g. the gqrx PPA
[18:40] <adamgreig> osmosdr and librtlsdr both build very easily
[18:40] <adamgreig> gnuradio itself's a bit of a beast - you awnt to either use the build script or just grab it from a ppa i think
[18:41] <ulfr> lubuntu
[18:41] <ulfr> Well, I'm running in circles here.
[18:42] <ulfr> it complains about missing libboost
[18:43] <adamgreig> just apt-get install that?
[18:43] <adamgreig> sudo apt-get install libboost-all-dev
[18:45] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03TE1LEO-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=TE1LEO-11
[18:47] <ulfr> yeah
[18:47] <ulfr> tried that...
[18:47] <ulfr> There's something fuzzy going on with the libbost package in lubuntu
[18:58] <Laurenceb__> anyone here used freecad?
[18:59] <Laurenceb__> uh oh other ppl having issues
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[20:05] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03f_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=f_chase
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[21:08] <pd3t> !flights
[21:08] <SpacenearUS> 03pd3t: Current flights: 03float-1 10(0330), 03SPL1 10(5738)
[21:08] <pd3t> !flight SPL1
[21:08] <SpacenearUS> 03pd3t: Flight 10(5738): 03SPL1 10(1 payload) - Launch date 03Today at 07:00 from 03Aarwangen, Switzerland 10(47.2184,7.772)
[21:09] <pd3t> !flight SP3OSJ
[21:09] <SpacenearUS> 03pd3t: Can't find a flight doc matching your query
[21:13] <Laurenceb__> any python gurus here?
[21:14] <Laurenceb__> I have some objects (in opencascade) and cant work out why some methods can only be applied to some of them
[21:15] <Laurenceb__> so I create a circle and I can extrude it along a path
[21:15] <Laurenceb__> type(circle)
[21:15] <Laurenceb__> <type 'Part.TopoShape'>
[21:16] <Laurenceb__> yet other shapes I have are also 'Part.TopoShape', yet the extrude method doesnt exist for them
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[21:51] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DC2EH-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DC2EH-11
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[23:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03WRIZ - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WRIZ
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[00:00] --- Sat Aug 29 2015