highaltitude.log.20150826

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[02:39] <ulfr> Were the slides from the UKHAS about parachutes put up on UKHAS yet?
[02:39] <ulfr> Can't seem to find 'em.
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[06:04] <eroomde> ulfr: not yet sorry
[06:04] <eroomde> i'll pull my finger out
[06:04] <eroomde> will do it today once i get to work
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[06:04] <eroomde> if you want any rocket-specific advice (i.e. where there is deployment - the hardest bit) then shout too
[06:05] <ulfr> eroomde: thanks!
[06:05] <ulfr> eroomde: We could use you on the team, I think.
[06:05] <ulfr> At least as a passive listener.
[06:05] <ulfr> In fact, I think most of you guys here could be a good team for passive listeners.
[06:05] <eroomde> you're welcome to email me or put me on a list or anything
[06:07] <ulfr> eroomde: sent you a pm
[06:07] <ulfr> And anyone else willing to participate on the bifrost (insane) aurora project, feel free to pm me with you email
[06:09] <ulfr> eroomde: I have a specific fun engineering problem.
[06:10] <ulfr> I need to design a device that erects it self upon reaching 200km Alt. It deploys, and brings out wings, which are large enough to glide in near zero atm
[06:10] <eroomde> ...wow
[06:10] <ulfr> now, how the hell do I calculate that?
[06:10] <eroomde> do you mean 20km?
[06:11] <eroomde> you won't be able to fly anything at 200km
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[06:12] <eroomde> the 100km karman line is defined (approximately) as being the altitude at which you'd have to be going so fast for any wing to generate lift that your speed would be >= orbital anyway
[06:12] <eroomde> and so no longer 'flying' so much as just a vehicle in space
[06:13] <ulfr> Good to have a second opinion on that.
[06:14] <ulfr> That's what I thought,
[06:14] <RealBorg> is the "crossing the karman line" talk online?
[06:14] <ulfr> Yes.
[06:14] <ulfr> it's on the youtube link on the ukhas
[06:15] <RealBorg> ulfr, I am planning to build a space glider
[06:16] <ulfr> RealBorg: Yes?
[06:16] <eroomde> my day job is working on a space-plane and we stop caring on the way up about aerodynamics about 30+km
[06:16] <eroomde> and on re-entry a bit higher
[06:16] <eroomde> but all still beneathe karman
[06:16] <ulfr> up down is easy
[06:16] <ulfr> orbit is a bit more harder
[06:17] <ulfr> heat etc
[06:17] <eroomde> and energy
[06:17] <ulfr> it's basically just gravity.
[06:17] <ulfr> oh, you mean up? I don't care about that.
[06:17] <RealBorg> a big but low density glider will not have as much heat problems as a heavy space shuttle
[06:18] <ulfr> That is true
[06:18] <ulfr> Especially since it's resistance to the air is relevant to its weight
[06:18] <ulfr> Sorry for my bad spelling, I haven't slept since I returned from London.
[06:18] <eroomde> yeah, freefalling from 100ish km won't upset you too much from a thermal management point of view
[06:19] <ulfr> precisly
[06:19] <ulfr> RealBorg: so what's your idea
[06:19] <RealBorg> i think it is possible to get a floating vehicle to a slow transition to orbital velocity
[06:19] <ulfr> RealBorg: and do you want to test that at NASA's FFC?
[06:19] <RealBorg> if I only had access to that ;)
[06:19] <ulfr> Well...
[06:19] <eroomde> are you JP?
[06:19] <ulfr> I did not ask about that.
[06:20] <ulfr> I said are you willing...
[06:20] <RealBorg> I'd be more than willing
[06:23] <ulfr> RealBorg: sent you a ppm
[06:23] <ulfr> not a ppm, but a pm
[06:23] <ulfr> damn, my spelling is geting bad, I really need some sleep in the next feew days
[06:23] <eroomde> i have slept a lot since the conf :)
[06:23] <eroomde> people were so generous with buying drinks after the conf that i almost passed out by midnight
[06:24] <ulfr> I haven't slept since then...
[06:24] <ulfr> I have major sleeping issues.
[06:24] <ulfr> Haha
[06:24] <ulfr> I got a quite few free drinks
[06:24] <ulfr> but that was peanuts to what I got in contact vise
[06:25] <eroomde> cantact vise?
[06:25] <RealBorg> ulfr, so far I considered getting a permission the hardest part ;)
[06:25] <eroomde> so is the plan to fly to 200km (above aurora?) and then spend as long as possible flying back through them to the ground?
[06:28] <ulfr> Yes
[06:28] <ulfr> But not reaching orbital speed
[06:29] <eroomde> no - that's tough :)
[06:29] <ulfr> because that increases weight and cost
[06:29] <ulfr> I know...
[06:29] <ulfr> This is *difficult*
[06:29] <eroomde> orbit is *hard*
[06:29] <eroomde> single stage to orbit is very hard
[06:29] <ulfr> no no no
[06:30] <ulfr> I'm not thinking of rockets
[06:30] <ulfr> I've already solved rhat
[06:30] <ulfr> that*
[06:30] <eroomde> to get to orbit without rockets?
[06:30] <ulfr> Nasa is supplying us with rockets into that altitude
[06:30] <eroomde> oh right i see
[06:30] <eroomde> that's really nice of them!
[06:30] <ulfr> I'm thinking about the latter part
[06:30] <eroomde> so you just have to make this deploying *thing* to come back down?
[06:30] <ulfr> gliding down
[06:30] <ulfr> Yes
[06:30] <eroomde> that sounds awesome
[06:30] <ulfr> with cameras
[06:30] <ulfr> really expensive fucking cameras
[06:31] <eroomde> so i honestly don't think you're going to be gliding from 200km-60km
[06:31] <ulfr> That's our problem
[06:31] <eroomde> you could however just try and free-fall in a stable way, maybe deploy a ballute when you have a tiny bit of dynamic pressure
[06:31] <eroomde> and then try and pull out into a fairly higher supersonic glide
[06:32] <RealBorg> at 200km you will have molecular flow of air - totally different aerodynamics but some interesting effects to explore
[06:32] <eroomde> thisis actually very interesting as we were looking at a supersonic glider bank turn to bring a rocket 1st stage (with small wings) back to a launch site
[06:32] <eroomde> for a smallsat launcher
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[06:33] <ulfr> Yes!
[06:33] <ulfr> That's why it's hard.
[06:34] <eroomde> you'll be doing mach4-5 probably by the time you hit any appreciable air resistance
[06:34] <eroomde> what fun :)
[06:34] <ulfr> indeed
[06:34] <RealBorg> ulfr, how much horizontal velocity would the glider get from the rocket?
[06:34] <ulfr> Depends on when you deploy iy
[06:35] <ulfr> it´*
[06:35] <ulfr> At max apogee, 0. but sooner you'd have the boost from the rocket it self.
[06:35] <ulfr> ...or whatever we can suppply in relase mechanism
[06:35] <ulfr> Which could be around 1.5-2G
[06:36] <eroomde> what is the approximate mass of this returning payload?
[06:36] <RealBorg> fins would still work for steering at ths altitude
[06:36] <ulfr> Around 10kg is our aimed mass
[06:37] <ulfr> it's probably going to be +/-3kg
[06:37] <eroomde> +3kg :)
[06:39] <fsphil> lol
[06:40] <eroomde> one day i will building something that weighs <= to the concept mass
[06:40] <eroomde> but it's yet to happen
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[06:42] <eroomde> ulfr: is there a region where flying becomes less interesting?
[06:42] <eroomde> i.e. do you want some specific range of altitudes where the aurora are for flying, then you could deploy a chute?
[06:43] <ulfr> between 80km and 200km yes
[06:45] <eroomde> right
[06:45] <eroomde> wow
[06:46] <eroomde> so a sort of mach 10 wedge
[06:46] <eroomde> then i'd probably just deploy a ballute
[06:46] <eroomde> and enjoy the ride back to earth, with a chute once subsonic
[06:46] <eroomde> (supersonic chutes are a can of worms)
[06:50] <ulfr> I know....
[06:50] <eroomde> this is a fascinating, hard, project
[06:52] <ulfr> it is.
[06:53] <ulfr> Gliding through the auroras is going to take some serious skills.
[06:54] <eroomde> another question if i may - why glide?
[06:54] <eroomde> why not just fall through?
[06:54] <ulfr> I think... that's the end game. We'll just fall through
[06:54] <ulfr> because at that alt
[06:55] <ulfr> we'll need to stick to some kind of orbit
[06:55] <eroomde> yeah
[06:56] <ulfr> Every math that I've done on this thing always leads to the same thing, we need huge speed, to catch orbit, or we need to just drop through
[06:56] <eroomde> just a stable fall will be challenge-enough
[06:56] <ulfr> it will
[06:56] <ulfr> And we'll need some serious equipment to keep the camera stablizied
[06:57] <RealBorg> I thought this was more than a sightseeing mission
[06:58] <RealBorg> you need to glide / slow down if you want to make certain measurements
[06:59] <ulfr> Yes
[06:59] <ulfr> it's never easy
[06:59] <ulfr> that's why it's fun
[07:00] <RealBorg> so why not deploy lots a balloons at altitude
[07:00] <RealBorg> pressure balloons inflated with chemical hydrogen
[07:01] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BACON_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BACON_chase
[07:01] <eroomde> that won't do much between 200-80km
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[07:05] <ulfr> No.It won't.
[07:06] <eroomde> i think the best you'll do is get a small glide on
[07:06] <ulfr> Perhaps a small wings with oxygen boos
[07:06] <eroomde> a sort of wedge shape with some trailing edge surfaces to make it come down at a slight angle
[07:07] <RealBorg> my point is that a wing structure would be much heavier than an inflated structure
[07:07] <eroomde> actually it doesn't have to be a wedge sorry, that'll just heat up too much
[07:07] <eroomde> RealBorg: i don't accept that that is true at all
[07:08] <ulfr> That makes no sense at all
[07:08] <ulfr> What's the math behind that?
[07:16] <eroomde> silence :)
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[07:16] <eroomde> right off to work
[07:17] <eroomde> bbl
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[07:20] <fsphil> this all sounds awesome
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[07:26] <ulfr> What?
[07:26] <fsphil> gliding through auroras
[07:27] <ulfr> oh that shit, yes, it's quite the challange.
[07:27] <ulfr> There's a reason why I've been lying over this problem for months now
[07:30] <ulfr> My solution now is using a glider that uses oxygen (or whatever) to propel around
[07:30] <ulfr> We are trying to maximise our stay in that blt between 200km and 80km
[07:31] <fsphil> how long would an object stay in there if just dropped from 200km?
[07:32] <fsphil> some calculator I found says 156.4 seconds. not long at all
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[08:01] <ulfr> fsphil: it's a very short amount of time
[08:02] <fsphil> indeed
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[08:09] <fsphil> http://hackaday.com/2015/08/25/could-solid-state-batteries-last-a-lifetime/
[08:09] <fsphil> "able to operate at freezing temperatures without a problem"
[08:10] <Vaizki> if I had a pint for every revolutionary battery technology hype which never made it to my desk...
[08:10] <Vaizki> *hikk*
[08:11] <fsphil> yes. no point hearing about it until we can buy them :)
[08:16] <gonzo_> I assume these are secondary cells? A primary cell that lasts a lifetime..... (It's called an RTG isn't it?)
[08:16] <gonzo_> though in reality, an rtg may only last a half life time......
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[08:30] <Vaizki> har har :)
[08:35] <Vaizki> completely OT, but I found a source for my stepper motors in the UK, however they don't ship outside of the UK (weird I know) so I'd need to arrange for a courier pickup from Braintree, Essex & delivery to Finland.. Anyone here out that way who wants to drop it in a RM small packet for a couple of pints? :)
[08:35] <fsphil> air pressure at 200km seems to be 10 times that at the surface of the moon. loads ;)
[08:36] <Vaizki> of course I could have it shipped at £15 to anywhere in the UK.. hmpf.
[08:37] <fsphil> does the company offer collection?
[08:37] <Vaizki> yea
[08:37] <fsphil> you could probably arrange a carrier to pick it up
[08:37] <Vaizki> sure but it would probably cost me £100
[08:38] <Vaizki> I'd rather save a bit & give the money to you lot.. it's for my radar repair, not a company project
[08:39] <UpuWork> ping richardeoin
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[09:28] <eroomde> it would be a smite longer than 3 minutes if you could add some drag....
[09:28] <eroomde> hmm
[09:29] <eroomde> ulfr: how about
[09:29] <eroomde> drop to 80km
[09:29] <eroomde> then fire a rocket
[09:29] <eroomde> and shoot back up again
[09:29] <eroomde> you'd buy yourself a couple more minutes maybe
[09:30] <fsphil> more than firing the rocket more slowly at 150km say?
[09:30] <fsphil> make it hover for a minute or two
[09:32] <eroomde> wherever is best to loiter i guess
[09:32] <eroomde> assuming low drag, you'll buy the same airtime wherever you fire it
[09:33] <eroomde> as it just adds however many more m/s to your velocity
[09:33] <eroomde> (adds in the vector sense, subtracts in the intuitive sense)
[09:35] <eroomde> might make more sense to be as draggy as possible down to 80km to bleed off kinetic energy
[09:35] <eroomde> then fire up again
[09:35] <eroomde> i wouldn't use oxygen though ulfr, which i think you mentioned above
[09:36] <eroomde> but i'm just spitballing
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[09:54] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03HB9FDK-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HB9FDK-11
[09:55] <tweetBot> @daveake: With Steve Randall, tracking 5 #skycademy balloons yesterday from the roof of Pi Towers #UKHAS http://t.co/nzCjWZP72f
[09:59] <eroomde> Vladimir and Estragon?
[10:00] <eroomde> 'Dave and Steve' doesn't have the same ring to it
[10:13] <fsphil> you'd need a really large area to be draggy at 200km
[10:16] <eroomde> at 200, yep, basically impossible
[10:17] <eroomde> but i think you could be doing a good chunk less than freefall in a vacuum would dictate by 80km
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[10:17] <fsphil> right, so use the drag to stay at ~80km for a bit longer before firing upwards again
[10:18] <fsphil> it's a really annoying altitude to stay at
[10:20] <eroomde> yeah :)
[10:21] <fsphil> large wings and rocket propulsion
[10:21] <fsphil> might last a tad longer
[10:26] <Laurenceb> this all sounds very feasible
[10:26] <Laurenceb> /sarc
[10:28] <eroomde> i just dont think you can be doing any sort of flying with wings there, at all
[10:28] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
[10:28] <eroomde> all you can do is try and fall a bit less slowly
[10:28] <eroomde> drag + rockets maybe
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[10:29] <Laurenceb> just rockets is more than hard enough
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[10:43] <happil> Hi... I recently got the air products N20 cylinder with standard inflator
[10:43] <happil> I am a bit confused as to how I should attach the garden hose to it
[10:44] <eroomde> i'm not sure what a 'standard inflator' is
[10:44] <eroomde> do you have a link?
[10:44] <happil> sure
[10:44] <happil> http://www.click4balloons.co.uk/n-range-push-valve-helium-inflator-h45-8790-p.asp
[10:45] <happil> That narrow tip at the end comes off to form a sort of wider cone.
[10:45] <happil> But it's very slippy plastic and not very long, so the hose doesn't fit easily over it
[10:45] <eroomde> can it be pushed over it at all?
[10:46] <eroomde> ignoring how well it gets retained by friction for the moment
[10:46] <happil> And also (although this isn't the main issue) someone has to push that blue bit into the gold the whole time.
[10:46] <happil> Yes, it can be pushed over a little. But the cone expands quite a bit.
[10:46] <happil> I'll take a photo
[10:46] <infaddict> gaffa tape
[10:47] <infaddict> i removed that connection and replaced with a trigger activated one as it was much easier to operate
[10:47] <eroomde> i was gonna say
[10:47] <eroomde> for a quickie, gaffa tape
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[10:47] <eroomde> for more than once, bodge a jubilee clip
[10:47] <infaddict> it will be a slow fill as that connection is designed for small party balloons
[10:47] <eroomde> for oftentimes, lose it altogether and get a proper regulator and the right fittings
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[10:49] Nick change: GW8RAK_ -> GW8RAK
[10:49] <happil> https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t34.0-12/11948007_1460749047588439_2130066713_n.jpg?oh=d71f4a71a9cfcb8fe47a95358fb07f22&oe=55DF0990
[10:49] <happil> There
[10:49] <infaddict> happil: you could heat the hose to allow it to fit over more then gaffa tape or jubilee clip
[10:50] <happil> My issue is that there's not really a flat area over which to put a jubilee clip
[10:50] <infaddict> yep agree, so gaffa/duck tape might be only option
[10:50] <happil> It's all conical, so it would just slide off
[10:50] <craag> Yeah also those are quite slippy so won't jam on
[10:50] <happil> But I am not sure if high pressure helium would be held by some tape.
[10:51] <craag> it's not high pressure
[10:51] <infaddict> pressure isnt that high
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[10:51] <happil> For some reason air products doesn't seem to have the standard pinch inflator
[10:51] <infaddict> my distributor offered a choice of connections when i ordered
[10:51] <happil> I ordered from click4balloons
[10:51] <infaddict> didnt actually matter to me as i changed the connection anyway to my own
[10:51] <happil> All they asked for was "latex" or "foil"
[10:52] <craag> think of the balloon more as an envelope for holding the helium, it doesn't actually have much pressure in it compared to outside until *just* before it bursts
[10:52] <happil> Oh so it's not going to come rushing out
[10:52] <happil> If there's a small leak?
[10:52] <eroomde> small leaks don't matter
[10:52] <infaddict> happil: many people have bodged filling solutions with hose and gaffa tape and generally works fine. as long as filling outdoors small leaks are ok.
[10:52] <happil> I intend to test my inflation tube beforehand in water anyway
[10:52] <eroomde> the volumentric flow through will be miniscule compared to what the balloon needs
[10:52] <happil> Ok
[10:53] <happil> I thought the pressure would get high that it would put strain on tape/hot glue and all blow out
[10:53] <happil> i.e. lose grip /pffft all helium gone
[10:53] <eroomde> the pressure will only build up if it gets blocked
[10:53] <craag> yes that's another thing - that valve isn't going to fill the balloon very quickly
[10:53] <happil> I know it'll take a good 20 mins half hour
[10:53] <craag> so get started filling early :)
[10:53] <mattbrejza> i generally set the regulator to minimum and cover the end and listen for leaks
[10:53] <craag> (after prepping everything else still ofc)
[10:54] <mattbrejza> also heating hoseing over the hob until its soft can be a good way to get it to fit to stuff better
[10:54] <happil> Hairdryer :)
[10:54] <happil> By the way can anybody confirm operating temperatures for the habduino?
[10:54] <infaddict> yep, then when its more malleable, slide it on and gaffa tape it
[10:54] <mattbrejza> depends how impatient you are
[10:54] <happil> I have put mine in a small plastic box in the payload
[10:54] <gonzo_> I did soem pressure measurements of a 100gm balloon, with air. the pressure, before reaching the elastic limit, was only about 4mbar ! Which was down in the noise of my pressure meter
[10:55] <mattbrejza> last did this to get garden hose to fit on the screw fitting
[10:55] <mattbrejza> so in the end the hose was moulded to the thread which was nice
[10:55] <gonzo_> you can get 4mBar by blowing at (not into) the port on my meter
[10:55] <eroomde> happil: it should be fine on a hab (habduino)
[10:56] <infaddict> yep gonzo_ i had similar worries to happil about pressure until i was educated here that in fact its practically 0
[10:56] <eroomde> not that quoting temperatures usually assumes sea level pressure
[10:56] <eroomde> thermal considerations are a very different story at high altitudes
[10:56] <eroomde> but habduino should be fine
[10:56] <happil> See I assumed that it would be like a party balloon lol
[10:56] <happil> You let go of the lip and it blows out
[10:56] <infaddict> it will leak out, but wont blow
[10:58] <infaddict> launch organisation is the key. have everything ready to go (payload packed, gps locked, radio RX and decode, lines layed out etc) so that you can focus on filling and launch.
[10:58] <happil> Ik
[10:58] <craag> the volume that you fill the balloon to on the ground is *so* much less than it's burst volume, compared to a party balloon where you fill it close to burst.
[10:58] <happil> I intend to do the payload last
[10:58] <craag> payload before balloon
[10:58] <infaddict> i'd recommend doing it first
[10:58] <happil> Fill balloon, tie onto parachute, turn on cameras, slip sling over payload
[10:59] <happil> How? The cameras won't last the whole flight then
[10:59] <craag> not cameras
[10:59] <craag> but tracker
[10:59] <happil> ofc.
[10:59] <happil> When I say do the payload
[10:59] <happil> I mean tying on the box sling
[10:59] <happil> Which I have to do last, once I've turned on the cameras
[10:59] <eroomde> make sure that's slick
[10:59] <infaddict> yep if camera battery or disk space is an issue, start them later. but ensure your tracker is on before filling and that its got GPS lock and its TX'ing and you can receive, decode and upload.
[10:59] <happil> ofc.
[11:00] <eroomde> i would normally design a payload so it can be rigged up before needing to be turned on
[11:00] <happil> tracker battery life isn't a problem
[11:00] <eroomde> and would redesign it so that could be done if it couldn't be done
[11:00] <infaddict> yes eroomde the british weather i experienced means by updated design will be exactly that
[11:00] <fsphil> my last few I close the payload the night before
[11:00] <fsphil> leaving just the power cable outside
[11:00] <eroomde> as once the balloon is inflated i want to attach the neck to the payload line and then let go
[11:00] <eroomde> and nothing else
[11:00] <eroomde> at all
[11:00] <happil> I can't
[11:00] <happil> Because then there would be holes in the payload
[11:00] <happil> https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/004/277/461/5d5e1bcefe06e4ab5ccf1df447112bf4_original.jpg?v=1438952297&w=639&fit=max&auto=format&q=92&s=5e80af79d993a7f21690dd342a0c42e4
[11:01] <mattbrejza> you could potentially power the cameras from an external USB power source until ready to fly?
[11:01] <happil> (and btw those signs are also hot glued on)
[11:01] <eroomde> well, that's not really a problem
[11:01] <eroomde> (holes in the payload)
[11:01] <happil> I can't exactly cut a hole large enough to fit my hand through!
[11:01] <eroomde> but seeing as you're stuck with it now, good luck
[11:01] <happil> It'd compromise the integrity of the box
[11:01] <eroomde> boxes don't need to be that integral
[11:02] <happil> https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/004/277/460/2cf6cfc673a7cea504bc415d90f77093_original.jpg?v=1438952274&w=639&fit=max&auto=format&q=92&s=d06af505e73891796135ca2eb94aeed4
[11:02] <eroomde> you're probably solving non-existant problems here
[11:02] <happil> (wires not yet stuck down)
[11:03] <Laurenceb> which camera is this?
[11:03] <happil> 2x contour roam2
[11:03] <Laurenceb> oh
[11:03] <happil> 1 kodak sp360
[11:03] <Laurenceb> I'd be able to help if it was gopro
[11:03] <infaddict> its not end of world happil, your design is workable. i used similar and in rain it was a problem, so next time i'd design it differently. just start tracker up before filling.
[11:03] <happil> all tested in the freezer
[11:03] <Laurenceb> well.. "help"
[11:03] <Laurenceb> gopro is so glitchy, makes me RAGE
[11:04] <ulfr> eroomde: I was thinking of using pressurized gas to increase my altitute at 120km~150km
[11:04] <Laurenceb> GoPro clearly cant handle decoupling or debouncing or EMI/RFI
[11:04] <ulfr> and then just drop the thing with a parachute
[11:04] <happil> ulfr 120km!?
[11:04] <ulfr> Laurenceb: I hate gopro
[11:04] <Laurenceb> me too lol
[11:04] <happil> Gopros are good for action cameras
[11:04] <ulfr> happil: yes
[11:05] <happil> But they are too expensive for HAB use
[11:05] <ulfr> happil: I'm aiming for 200km.
[11:05] <happil> Considering you need to get the external battery pack
[11:05] <happil> 200km?
[11:05] <ulfr> Not with a hab, tho' ;)
[11:05] <happil> Jeez im aiming for 33km...
[11:05] <Laurenceb> ulfr: did you watch my conference talk?
[11:05] <happil> oh. what with?
[11:05] <infaddict> rockets
[11:05] <infaddict> not HAB
[11:05] <ulfr> Yes.
[11:05] <happil> ah...
[11:05] <ulfr> Laurenceb: Yes.
[11:05] <ulfr> It was very interesting.
[11:05] <Laurenceb> ok... you realise how hard this is?
[11:05] <mattbrejza> happil: are you expecting the contour battery to last the flight?
[11:05] <ulfr> And I droppped the idea of rockoons.
[11:05] <happil> Yes, I hope so
[11:05] <Laurenceb> lol
[11:05] <ulfr> Laurenceb: I'm launching from earth.
[11:05] <Laurenceb> right
[11:06] <happil> I have tested their recording time in the freezer
[11:06] <happil> and outside it
[11:06] <ulfr> Terrier improved malamut.
[11:06] <Laurenceb> you realise how hard that is too?
[11:06] <happil> They manage to record for a decent 2 hours
[11:06] <eroomde> ulfr: for a given mass budget, i'd be inclined to just use a solid rocket motor
[11:06] <ulfr> Laurenceb: I've already done one launch.
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[11:06] <eroomde> you'll have much better specific impulse
[11:06] <happil> although I am not too concerned about the descent
[11:06] <mattbrejza> that still wontquite get the landing?
[11:06] <Laurenceb> ulfr: also regulatory is also a pita there
[11:06] <happil> the kodak sp360 does a bit longer
[11:06] <ulfr> Laurenceb: Not if NASA is doing my launches ;)
[11:06] <Laurenceb> ulfr: there are only a few places where you could easily get free airspace all the way up
[11:06] <eroomde> Laurenceb: they have a sounding rocket and a range
[11:06] <Laurenceb> right...
[11:06] <eroomde> you can relax
[11:07] <eroomde> it's a solved problem
[11:07] <Laurenceb> well thats just cheating
[11:07] <ulfr> I'm more concerned with the payload
[11:07] <Laurenceb> boring... nothing to see here
[11:07] <Laurenceb> :P
[11:07] <ulfr> hahaha
[11:07] <happil> By the way, I mentioned the messages launch to the CAA
[11:07] <ulfr> We still got plenty of problems to solve.
[11:07] <happil> They are working on the exemption today so hopefully as soon as it's given, I can call NOTAM
[11:07] <happil> Launching saturday
[11:07] <happil> Predictions are looking better and better
[11:07] <eroomde> good luck happil
[11:07] <happil> thanks
[11:07] <eroomde> remember to do a dry-run of all of this
[11:08] <ulfr> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx5SeQWaZbE
[11:08] <ulfr> That's my payload taking off.
[11:08] <eroomde> turning on the cameras and attaching the box to the payload train
[11:08] <infaddict> happil: where you launching from?
[11:08] <happil> Farm near marlborough
[11:08] <happil> Predicted to land near cambridge
[11:08] <eroomde> make sure absolutely nothing hasn't been tried before (absolutely nothing!) in terms of launch preparation, before you start filling the balloon
[11:08] <ulfr> Hahahaha
[11:08] <ulfr> That works so well"
[11:09] <infaddict> happil: nice, long drive tho!
[11:09] <happil> Yes.
[11:09] <happil> I probably won't be able to make the payload landing
[11:09] <ulfr> happil: it'll get on orbit then?
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[11:09] <infaddict> nope that is a risk, but hopefully others will be tracking it to low altitude around Cambridge
[11:09] <ulfr> I wish that was a risk factor.
[11:09] <fsphil> "Terrier armed" .. uh-oh
[11:09] <ulfr> "We're shooting dogs into space!"
[11:10] <infaddict> happil: that must be 6-7 hours depending on traffic.
[11:10] <happil> 7 hours?!
[11:10] <infaddict> When you said Malborough did you mean the South Devon one?
[11:10] <infaddict> If so google says 6 hour drive to Cambridge.
[11:11] <happil> 2 hours 2 minutes..
[11:11] <infaddict> ah lol i have the wrong place then
[11:11] <LazyLeopard> Marlborough near Swindon, then... ;)
[11:11] <infaddict> yep haha
[11:11] <happil> Yes
[11:11] <happil> not 2 minutes
[11:11] <happil> 29*
[11:11] <infaddict> ok so thats about the flight time
[11:12] <infaddict> plus tidy up time after launch etc
[11:12] <infaddict> you should be at least nearby
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[11:15] <happil> Yes, we will be nearby
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[11:15] <happil> CAA confirmed exemption would be granted for today
[11:15] <happil> They want to know what the drift direction is
[11:15] <happil> I am saying North East towards Bedford
[11:16] <infaddict> do you have a flight document on habhub?
[11:16] <happil> Not yet
[11:16] <happil> I will be submitting one as soon as the CAA grants permission
[11:16] <infaddict> ok, presume u already have a payload doc?
[11:16] <happil> Just in case they give us some ridiculous time like they did last time
[11:16] <happil> A payload doc? What's that?
[11:16] <happil> :) of course I have one
[11:16] Action: infaddict facepalm ;-)
[11:17] Action: fsphil backs away from the keyboard
[11:17] <infaddict> whats your callsign?
[11:18] <happil> HERMES
[11:18] <ulfr> You mean herpes?
[11:18] <ulfr> no wait...
[11:18] <happil> No.
[11:18] <happil> HERMES.
[11:18] <happil> I think the media would go crazy if they found out HERPES was airborne.
[11:18] <infaddict> !payload HERMES
[11:18] <SpacenearUS> 03infaddict: Can't find a flight doc matching your query
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[11:19] <ulfr> hahaha
[11:19] <infaddict> !id HERMES
[11:19] <ulfr> That would be bad"
[11:19] <ulfr> But then again, we all have it.
[11:20] <gonzo_> at least P and M are more than a few bit errors away
[11:20] <happil> *backs away in horror, cleans keyboard
[11:20] <ulfr> Out of 187 people in here 168 have herpes.
[11:20] <ulfr> Statistically speaking...
[11:20] <happil> Well I don't
[11:20] <gonzo_> not really the thing to shout about
[11:20] <ulfr> happil: Have you been tested?
[11:20] <ulfr> Well, I have herpes.
[11:20] <happil> No.
[11:20] <ulfr> HSV1.
[11:20] <happil> But I'm also 15.
[11:21] <ulfr> Then you don't know.
[11:21] <ulfr> Most people get infected when infants
[11:21] <infaddict> good luck with everything happil!
[11:21] <ulfr> due to stupid relatives kissing infants
[11:21] <fsphil> well this wandered onto a weird topic
[11:21] <happil> yes
[11:21] <happil> all from a misread of HERMES
[11:21] <ulfr> I'm dizleksik.
[11:21] <gonzo_> un the uk, people usually think of herpes as being the sexually translitted one
[11:22] <gonzo_> otherwise ther are called coldsores
[11:22] <ulfr> It's a misconception.
[11:22] <Laurenceb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yC7HwPh6Es
[11:22] <ulfr> Coldsores can be either herpes or just something else
[11:22] <ulfr> the outbrakes are because of the immune system doing it's stuff.
[11:22] <happil> I have never had a cold sore
[11:23] <ulfr> happil: doesn't mean you don't have herpes though.
[11:23] <happil> Let's club together and make a herpes wiki and irc.
[11:23] <gonzo_> I've had frostbite, does that copunt
[11:23] <ulfr> How about that.
[11:23] <happil> I am sure someone is going to be amused when they read the chat logs sometime..
[11:23] <Laurenceb> lulz
[11:23] <ulfr> My sister is somethingsomethingvirologist or something
[11:23] <ulfr> so I get to hear these things all the fucking time
[11:23] <Vaizki> ok wtf is going on here :O
[11:23] <ulfr> Makes me obsessed about it
[11:23] <Laurenceb> you have herpes
[11:23] <Laurenceb> thats what
[11:23] <ulfr> HAHA
[11:23] <happil> fight fight fight
[11:24] <Vaizki> :(
[11:24] Action: ulfr glares at Vaizki
[11:24] <ulfr> This nonesense all came because of a dizleksik icelander twat
[11:24] <happil> Did you hear the herpes talk at ukhas conference?
[11:24] <ulfr> Maybe we should have one next yer.
[11:24] <happil> agree
[11:25] <ulfr> Oh, I really am dizleksik
[11:25] <happil> presented by the balloon news owner
[11:25] <ulfr> Perhaps we can spread herpes via balloons?
[11:25] <ulfr> That would be something.
[11:25] <happil> who has the best skills in finding stories about possibly the most obscure hobby
[11:25] <happil> ulfr now you are going into dodgy territory
[11:25] <ulfr> Quite.
[11:26] <gonzo_> are the hab community going to be accused of sharing latex now??
[11:26] <ulfr> But first we need to get herpes airborne.
[11:26] <happil> sharing latex...
[11:26] <happil> lol...
[11:26] <happil> we just need to make sure the balloons are ribbed.
[11:27] <ulfr> As long as they are correctly lubricated it should be fine
[11:27] <ulfr> I think I might need another coffee, I've been awake for too many days
[11:28] <happil> i found your passport picture: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41wT7NQwAWL._SY355_.jpg
[11:28] <gonzo_> I did post the question of the free life on an He inflated condom
[11:28] <gonzo_> only leo admitted to having tried it
[11:29] <happil> High altitude contraception.
[11:29] <happil> HAC.
[11:29] <gonzo_> (and the resultant scattering of slippy latex, around his office and co-workers desks!)
[11:29] <ulfr> happil: damn, that's close.
[11:29] <gonzo_> would that be used by the mile high club?
[11:29] <ulfr> ...but so far
[11:29] <ulfr> haha
[11:29] <happil> gonzo
[11:29] <happil> perhaps we can deliver to the mile high club
[11:29] <ulfr> What have I done to this channel...
[11:30] <happil> they order on their app
[11:30] <happil> and then we send up a balloon
[11:30] <happil> with their choice
[11:30] <gonzo_> options= 100-3600gm. Not sure if that is boasting
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[11:31] <gonzo_> (FYI.... the free lift on a condom, fully inflated with He balloon gas - 10gm)
[11:32] <qyx_> seems to be feasible for a pico
[11:32] <happil> so potentially you could carry a condom with an inflated condom
[11:33] <happil> they'd have to integrate some sort of slot in planes in order to catch the delivery and transport it discreetly to the toilet
[11:33] <ulfr> A condom might make a good floater though
[11:34] <ulfr> apart from the latex thing though
[11:35] <gonzo_> I thought the rules for the mile high club were, 'not in the loo and not with the crew'
[11:36] <ulfr> I'm not sure.
[11:36] <gonzo_> that 10gm is full to burst, so you would not get mush alt with that
[11:36] <ulfr> I've never been in the high mile
[11:36] <gonzo_> the only thing I've ever lofted with one, was a mettalised foil radar reflector
[11:37] <gonzo_> seeing if I copuld follow it with an X band marine radar
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[11:38] <gonzo_> but it was up out of the beamwidth of the antenna before it was far enough away to be outside of the blanking blind spot
[11:38] <gonzo_> no idea how high it got, as it was also aout of visual range well before that
[11:38] <happil> to apply to the caa for that...
[11:39] <happil> balloon type: magnum xxxl
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[11:39] <happil> payload: durex extra strong
[11:39] <ulfr> We did test it at 150km onc
[11:39] <ulfr> once*
[11:39] <gonzo_> also the lubed ones are a pain to fill, not easy to hold on to/tie up
[11:39] <ulfr> that was just the normal ones though
[11:40] <happil> wait
[11:40] <ulfr> It expands quite heavily
[11:40] <happil> you guys have actually done it?
[11:40] <happil> (no euphemism intended)
[11:40] <ulfr> I did on a Bronco II with my friend.
[11:40] <ulfr> good grief that sounds bad
[11:40] <happil> yes ulfr, i only realised after
[11:40] <gonzo_> cue, nudge nudge sketch
[11:41] <happil> did you manage to penetrate 30km?
[11:41] <ulfr> happil: velocity yes.
[11:41] <happil> pun intended
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[11:42] <gonzo_> oh... suits you, sir.
[11:42] <happil> im guessing you had many friends at your launch. what were the benefits?
[11:43] <happil> i know for a fact that hwoyee balloons have a massive hole
[11:44] <happil> did you have the helium canister on its side or erect?
[11:44] <ulfr> The benifits were high altitude and lots of footage.
[11:44] <ulfr> benefits*
[11:45] <Vaizki> I see it's the flying circus here now
[11:45] <happil> was the launch window quite tight?
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[11:46] <happil> did you orally inflate the balloon, or with helium?
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[11:47] <fsphil> so anyway
[11:47] <happil> Yes, anyway
[11:47] <happil> Does it matter if the time on the flight document is accurate?
[11:48] <mattbrejza> a responsable adult has returned
[11:48] <happil> i.e. if it says midday and I launch at 1pm or 10am instead
[11:48] <craag> nope
[11:48] <craag> just as long as you're still in the launch window
[11:48] <happil> i'd for us to come all over the country and then find out we can't launch!
[11:48] <gonzo_> err on the side of early if poss. Otherwise some people may miss the start of the launch.
[11:48] <happil> hate*
[11:49] <gonzo_> early on the flight doc I mean
[11:49] <happil> ok
[11:49] <gonzo_> if it's late, people will hand on for the launch
[11:50] <gonzo_> hang
[11:50] <happil> so i'll say 11am
[11:50] <happil> and it could be 12 or 1
[11:50] <craag> It's really just a time to put on the habhub calendar
[11:50] <craag> so give an estimate, update us via irc, and everyone'll be happy
[11:51] <happil> Flight doc submitted
[11:51] <happil> 02a4bdd49ae5f914a56398a57fd1abf2 id
[11:51] <craag> head over to #habhub and ask for approval quoting the id
[11:55] <happil> #habhub?
[11:55] <happil> there's a channel?
[11:55] <happil> so there is...
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[13:18] <chimpusmaximus> afternoon, Does any one have any experience of MT3336 chipset GPS? Trying to find out if it would work at altitude?
[13:19] <UpuWork> probably wouldn't and thats not just my self interest
[13:19] <UpuWork> they have seemingly random altitude limits but normally 18km
[13:20] <chimpusmaximus> :-) while hunting did find an old post of yours on the MT3339
[13:20] <UpuWork> some Adafruit are 27km
[13:20] <UpuWork> some 40km
[13:20] <UpuWork> have fun
[13:21] <chimpusmaximus> Its comes with the SIM808 GMS module that i was tempted to look into as a small backup tracker. Will be safer in end to go with ublox
[13:21] <chimpusmaximus> GSM
[13:23] <eroomde> yeah - if you want gsm too i'd just get a separate dedicated gsm modem
[13:23] <eroomde> and implement that as a separate backup
[13:24] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SQ5FNQ-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SQ5FNQ-11
[13:26] <chimpusmaximus> As well as for backup i was tempted to use for camera shutter control and powerdown for landing. Its a sony Rx100 MkIII and would rather the lens was retracted etc for landing.
[13:27] <chimpusmaximus> Currently i have it coded into the PITS to control it.
[13:28] <eroomde> that's quite a serious camera!
[13:29] <infaddict> Several handheld camcorders charge via USB. I'm guessing (hoping) I could plug in a USB battery pack (like a pebble thingy) to supply additional power/charging during flight. Anybody done this?
[13:30] <eroomde> yep
[13:30] <eroomde> works fine
[13:30] <chimpusmaximus> Hence why not want to lose or risk damage as best a possible. Managed to sort out external power and MKIII makes it possible to control shutter and focus pretty simple. If i use auto power off after say 1 minute and dont take any more photos it shuts down.
[13:30] <eroomde> having a backup is a good idea
[13:30] <eroomde> not sure how much i'd trust an rx100 to a raspberry pi
[13:31] <infaddict> thx eroomde
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[13:31] <infaddict> mmmm lovely camera chimpusmaximus
[13:32] <infaddict> not sure i'd have the balls to launch something like that hehe
[13:32] <chimpusmaximus> In fact i only own a mki and borrowing the mkiii...
[13:32] <eroomde> not without a second backup tracker :)
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[13:37] <chimpusmaximus> Yeah i used a good version of tk102 first time and as long as it was in separate payload was fine, decided to try going lighter and picked up a rf-v16 and found it struggled to get reception at all.
[13:38] <chimpusmaximus> For the weight of the TK102 i can probably make soemthing that will have a decent GPS and thus make decisions based on altitude. No point have GSM powered on all the time etc
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[13:40] <eroomde> indeed, and good thinking
[13:40] <eroomde> although if opting for added state (gsm being on/off depends on altitude, rather than just always being on, always trying to message) then make sure the software is all the more tested
[13:41] <eroomde> i'd almost have gsm as a standalone thing
[13:41] <eroomde> with its own gps
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[13:43] <RocketBoy> Ive tried the rf-v16 on HAB flights three or four times - not been impressed at all
[13:44] <chimpusmaximus> Hi Steve, yeah even with a isle of man sim it failed to pick up a signal in a housing estate. It does warn that its got less reception than normal but it was useless.
[13:46] <RocketBoy> I think it only worked on one of my flights (using IoM SIM) - the new TK102s (£13 on ebay) worked much better
[13:47] <chimpusmaximus> Taking what you said eroomde i might be better staying with the TK102 as backup as i have done a fair bit of testing with it including hours in a freezer. At least my coding can't catch me out...
[13:50] <eroomde> it's tough to beat well tested and flight proven hardware
[13:50] <eroomde> especially as a backup for something new
[13:57] <chimpusmaximus> Steve, you have any/many flights planned over next month or so from Elsworth?
[13:57] <SpeedEvil> chimpusmaximus: speaking in general, having the camera on at start, and leaving them on prevents cold issues
[13:59] <chimpusmaximus> SpeedEvil: Will be on from start but ideally need to shut down before landing. It may be with some testing i find once cold its safer to leave on.
[13:59] <SpeedEvil> ah
[14:03] <chimpusmaximus> So my logic was that once attitude was say about 1000m it set a flag to 1 that would then trigger shutdown when altitude = 750m and flag =1.
[14:05] <eroomde> where are you launching from?
[14:06] <chimpusmaximus> Probably Elsworth
[14:06] <eroomde> ok
[14:06] <eroomde> just be careful with things like >750m
[14:07] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[14:07] <SpeedEvil> there is land >750m
[14:07] <SpeedEvil> not much
[14:07] <eroomde> you therefore have a problem is you land in many parts of wales
[14:07] <eroomde> or the pennines
[14:07] <eroomde> or the lakes
[14:07] <eroomde> or scotland
[14:07] <eroomde> sod's law etc
[14:08] <chimpusmaximus> i'll have a few logistic issues as well.... Thankfully its pretty flat in the East. Saying that last one did not find land..
[14:09] <eroomde> :)
[14:09] <SpeedEvil> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mountains_and_hills_of_the_British_Isles_by_height#2500-3000_feet_.28762.0-914.4.C2.A0m.29 - aha
[14:09] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[14:09] <SpeedEvil> if it comes down at 750m on a mountain, you have bigger problems than the camera diddn't turn off
[14:09] <eroomde> i'd avoid state unless you have a real constraint that requires it
[14:10] <SpeedEvil> reboots are also an issue
[14:10] <eroomde> like if you just can't afford to keep the gsm running cos battery life, then fine
[14:10] <eroomde> otherwise just leave it on
[14:10] <eroomde> likewise cameras
[14:10] <SpeedEvil> Why are you trying to turn the cam off?
[14:10] <Laurenceb> I use BBRAM to save state for reboot recovery on my latest board (the one I had at the conference)
[14:11] <eroomde> i used the eeprom on an atmega for rocket
[14:11] <eroomde> to save the state vector
[14:11] <eroomde> + wear levelling to stop it getting murdered
[14:11] <eroomde> that was a bodge tho, wouldn;t recommend
[14:11] <eroomde> bbram or fram is a much better idea
[14:11] <chimpusmaximus> Camera has a lens that comes out and retracts back into body on power off. Was thinking it would reduce possible damage on landing.
[14:12] <Laurenceb> my board has i2c, so it needs reboot recovery
[14:12] <bradfirj> So long as the mechanism lubricant doesn't dislike the low temperatures
[14:12] <eroomde> i2c sucks so much
[14:12] <eroomde> i avoid it
[14:12] <Laurenceb> yeah
[14:12] <eroomde> one node can bring down the whole network
[14:12] <eroomde> and it's so stateful
[14:13] <eroomde> it sucks as a physical layer and a data link
[14:13] <bradfirj> eroomde: what's the perfect layer 1 and 2?
[14:13] <SpeedEvil> chimpusmaximus: simply adding a mechanical buffer works well
[14:14] <SpeedEvil> Stick a block of foam on the camera, with a hole in it
[14:14] <eroomde> bradfirj: ha i'm on the spot now
[14:14] <eroomde> so
[14:14] <eroomde> i basically will just use the spi version of a part if i can
[14:14] <fsphil> "anything but i2c"
[14:14] <eroomde> vs i2c
[14:14] <eroomde> i know it take more pins but i'm usually not that pin constrained
[14:15] <eroomde> in terms of things i actually like? well on the test rig to control a v experiment rocket engine it's a mix of ethernet and can
[14:15] <eroomde> ethernet is transformer coupled, thus galvanic isolation (WIN!!!)
[14:15] <bradfirj> i2c is fine try Ethernet Q_Q
[14:15] <eroomde> and being ac-coupled a sticky node can't pull down a line
[14:15] <bradfirj> We hates it the precious
[14:15] <chimpusmaximus> Yeah i'll mount it back a little bit and as you say add something to provide protection. As bradfirj the cold might cause problems with it retracting.
[14:16] <eroomde> and can is not galvanically isolated but still pretty tolerant to a lot of things
[14:16] <eroomde> like spikes and dc offsets between grounds and other things
[14:16] <eroomde> CAN not can, sorry
[14:16] <Laurenceb> theres RS485 if you are simple
[14:16] <bradfirj> Anyone worked with fibre channel at this kind of level?
[14:17] <bradfirj> It's used extensively in certain avionics packages
[14:17] <Laurenceb> wow thats going very hardcore
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[14:17] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: I was surprised to find that SpaceX used ethernet loggers
[14:17] <bradfirj> I work with FC every day but as an IT engineer not that kind of level :p
[14:18] <bradfirj> But the protocol, particularly the robust delivery guarantee is interesting
[14:18] <bradfirj> And the way nodes join a fabric and are addressed
[14:18] <eroomde> no fibre here
[14:18] <eroomde> just cat5
[14:18] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: i'm not all that surprised
[14:19] <eroomde> it's great
[14:19] <fsphil> I sent 50 baud data over fibre one time. but that probably doesn't count :)
[14:19] <eroomde> high speed, isolated, can be hard real time
[14:19] <eroomde> and the standard has nice things
[14:19] <eroomde> e.g. PoE and PTP
[14:19] <bradfirj> Boeing 787 uses Ethernet for everything that isn't safety critical
[14:19] <eroomde> so you can have all your nodes powered and time-synced (to 0.1uS) and connected at 1GBps all just with 1 cat 5 cable
[14:19] <eroomde> how cool is that
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> ##linuxcnc can also do servo driving over ethernet
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> which is fun
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> in hard-real-time
[14:21] <bradfirj> eroomde: ptp for time sync?
[14:21] <eroomde> yeah
[14:21] <bradfirj> Need to look at that myself
[14:21] <bradfirj> I'm just lazy
[14:22] <eroomde> ieee1588 is the spec
[14:22] <bradfirj> That the bare Ethernet one or the UDP over IP one?
[14:22] <eroomde> it's basically just does a few call-responses between master/switch and nodes
[14:23] <eroomde> and characterises the link delay between each one
[14:23] <eroomde> simplish if you're all on one switch which isn't too loaded
[14:23] <Laurenceb> off topic: anyone here ever used latexdiff?
[14:23] <eroomde> but if going across several switch boundaries you need propper ptp-enabled switches
[14:23] <Laurenceb> I started try to use it this morning, and today has not been a fun day
[14:24] <eroomde> and there are levels of ptp quality depending on how you timestamp
[14:24] <fsphil> I struggle to keep our (windows) servers synced within 1 second :(
[14:24] <eroomde> ideally you want timestamping at the phy or mac
[14:24] <eroomde> it's no biggy on the cortexm4 microcontrollers we use as it's all nice and deterministic
[14:24] <bradfirj> If your oscillator is accurate
[14:24] <eroomde> but it's more troublesome if you're waitng for a fat ugly linux kernel module to get round to seeing that it has a packet
[14:25] <Laurenceb> I've never understood linux kernel
[14:25] <eroomde> actually the oscillators don't have to be *that* accurate
[14:25] <bradfirj> I'd be looking at using these to time Motorsport so we have hard accuracy requirements from the national governing body
[14:25] <Laurenceb> how can anyone edit it
[14:25] <fsphil> something better done on the ethernet IC
[14:25] <Laurenceb> its horrifying
[14:25] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: anyone can't
[14:25] <eroomde> an algorithm is defined to keep them from drifting relative to the ptp master
[14:25] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: you need to submit your patch to the relevant maintainer
[14:25] <Laurenceb> I meant the code "structure"
[14:26] <bradfirj> Fwiw I've fixed like three very minor 1-5 line bugs in the kernel
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: ah
[14:26] <bradfirj> And it was a very easy process
[14:26] <eroomde> i have only dived in a few times (actually to the ntp stuf as it happens) and found some of it a bit confusing
[14:26] <bradfirj> But that was in gpu drivers
[14:26] <bradfirj> And they're very self contained
[14:26] <Laurenceb> what eroomde said
[14:26] <eroomde> quite a lot of indirection
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> If you're doing a self-contained bit - it's quite easy.
[14:26] <bradfirj> Yup
[14:26] <bradfirj> If you're doing far reaching changes I assume you have to be a bit of a guru
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> that is the 'many eyes' bit.
[14:27] <bradfirj> But that's not going to be different anywhere else
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> Fixing stuff is easy and it's easily understanable
[14:27] <eroomde> lots of different definitions of time
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> Unfortunately, not quite.
[14:27] <eroomde> some of the time sources can go down between reads (wtf)
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> The problem is that many areas touch other areas and require a knowledge of it all.
[14:27] <eroomde> some are guaranteed monotonic but could be the same as the last time you read
[14:27] <eroomde> and some will always go up
[14:30] <bradfirj> Suppose it depends on where they source form
[14:30] <bradfirj> froM*
[14:30] <eroomde> exactly
[14:31] <bradfirj> Presumably the "correct" behaviour is "always go up but might be the same"
[14:31] <eroomde> openBSD will take over one day
[14:31] <SpeedEvil> GPS time-sources can go backwards
[14:31] <SpeedEvil> if they reevaluate their position
[14:31] <eroomde> actually ptpd was written for one of the bsds rather than linux iirc
[14:31] <SpeedEvil> As one exampel
[14:32] <fsphil> openbsd has theme tunes. that's enough for me
[14:32] <eroomde> i've never seen a gps go backwards
[14:35] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Well, at some point, it must, if it outputs the time with enough accuracy
[14:35] <SpeedEvil> and frequency
[14:35] <SpeedEvil> (which is probably in practice unlikely)
[14:36] <eroomde> i can conceive of it being pathologically possible
[14:36] <eroomde> but i'd have though most of them would jusr declare a lost lock and reaquire a time signal
[14:38] <bradfirj> I mean if you can get your GPS unit to exceed the speed of light, being concerned about the clock running backwards should really be the least of your concerns
[14:38] <gonzo_> I've seen some really poor GPS rx's in the distant past
[14:39] <gonzo_> where the internal clock was awful
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[14:39] <gonzo_> you could see the 3sat lock drifting down the road at quite a rate
[14:40] <gonzo_> without lock you could get quiet a step when it reaquired
[14:40] <gonzo_> in time
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[14:40] <DL7AD> 27 miles
[14:41] <DL7AD> 27mi
[14:41] <mattbrejza> no need for SI bot to convert miles im afraid
[14:42] <SpeedEvil> bradfirj: If you have a GPS time thing which thinks it is 100m from where it is, then a correction to the real place can get you a time-step of up to 300ns in principle
[14:43] <bradfirj> I was being faceitious but that's interesting, I must admit I don't actually know how GPS derives a time stamp
[14:43] <eroomde> same way it gets position
[14:43] <eroomde> knows where the sat is
[14:43] <eroomde> knows where it is
[14:43] <bradfirj> I assumed it just recieved a time from the atomic clocks onboard the sats and elected the most sensible one
[14:43] <eroomde> each sat says 'i make this the time'
[14:43] <eroomde> at the same time
[14:43] <SpeedEvil> bradfirj: they recieve time-difference signals from the satellites, and then solve for the time-difference between them and the sats. They know the orbits, which lets it compute absolute position - and hence time
[14:43] <eroomde> but the Rx receives these times at different times due to different distances
[14:44] <eroomde> if interested in how gps works including seeing a soft receiver being coded up in python, there exists a workshop given at the ukhas conf 2 yrs ago
[14:44] <bradfirj> Are the orbital properties of the sats hardcoded or do they send a "I am sat 4 and my LAN is y"
[14:45] <eroomde> they send their positions
[14:45] <eroomde> the so-called ephemeris
[14:46] <eroomde> it can take up to 15 minutes to get a full sat of ephemerides from all the sats
[14:46] <eroomde> which is why it can take that long to get a lock from cold
[14:47] <eroomde> if doing a 'hot start' the theory is you already have that data downloaded so you can quickly calc a position based on what sats you are receiving
[14:47] <russss> the wikipedia article on GPS is quite extensive if you fancy some light reading (NB: may not be light)
[14:48] <russss> I got an impressively quick GPS fix on the plane home last week, not even holding my phone against the window
[14:48] <fsphil> my current phone works well in a plane
[14:49] <fsphil> last one didn't get a lock at all
[14:49] <bertrik> I think phones can download this extra data from the phone data network instead of needing to receive it from the sats
[14:49] <fsphil> got to a peak altitude of 11km
[14:49] <russss> bertrik: yeah they do
[14:50] <craag> Just the timestamp from the phone network helps them out too.
[14:50] <eroomde> yep
[14:50] <eroomde> it's a 4D problem
[14:51] <eroomde> constraining any dimension helps
[14:51] <bradfirj> is the data packet containing the positions of the sats quite large or is the bandwidth of the gps broadcast extremely low
[14:51] <fsphil> 50 b/s
[14:51] <bertrik> gps sends 50 bps IIRC
[14:51] <fsphil> pretty slow
[14:51] <bradfirj> right
[14:52] <eroomde> watch my talk :)
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[14:55] <craag> https://ukhas.org.uk/general:ukhasconference2013#timetable
[14:55] <craag> GPS Part [I-IV]
[14:55] <craag> Sorry for batc player..
[14:58] <fsphil> think anyone would mind if that was youtube'd? :)
[14:59] <craag> we (batc) are migrating all the videos onto the batc youtube channel
[14:59] <craag> I'll add these to the request list
[15:06] <Laurenceb> shit this reminds me
[15:06] <Laurenceb> after the conference I was going to look at 5 ground station doppler fit
[15:07] <Laurenceb> DL7AD convinced me it was doable :P
[15:07] <Laurenceb> no wonder I have no free time
[15:13] <Laurenceb> in theory a balloon path has 4DOF at each point (position and tx drift)
[15:13] <Laurenceb> so 5 ground stations might just be enough
[15:14] Action: SpeedEvil has been going on for ages abou thtis.
[15:15] <SpeedEvil> ^if the rxs have perfect clocks
[15:15] <SpeedEvil> Or there is something else in-band you can use as a clock
[15:15] <Laurenceb> heh in future all flights could be cheap ~1mW keyfob style CW beacons
[15:16] <Laurenceb> but yeah this needs to be modelled
[15:17] <Laurenceb> troll time
[15:17] <Laurenceb> http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=38203.0;attach=1059865
[15:17] <Laurenceb> I'll just leave that here
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[15:19] <Laurenceb> lulwut its described as a chemical reaction
[15:19] <eroomde> this is why you have no free time Laurenceb
[15:19] <Laurenceb> indeed
[15:20] <Laurenceb> but free energy tards getting trolled is lulz all around
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Doing it wrong
[15:21] <eroomde> yo Dan-K2VOL
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> The only sensible way to troll them is to get a vastly popular video on which you have monetised.
[15:21] <eroomde> how're tricks?
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> get them to pay for your new house
[15:22] <Dan-K2VOL> Hey eroomde !
[15:22] <Dan-K2VOL> Tricks are pretty darn busy, but pretty good. I'm in Denver for work this week, how are things over there?
[15:23] <Upu> Hey Dan
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[15:23] <eroomde> still plugging away
[15:24] <eroomde> new engine and test rig built and fired since we last spoke
[15:24] <eroomde> foot slightly off the gas this august, which is welcome
[15:24] <eroomde> but another engine project is starting in a month
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> :)
[15:25] #highaltitude: mode change '+o Upu' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[15:25] Topic changed on #highaltitude by Upu!Upu@ubn.upuaut.net: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects! Please read the wiki - http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk , channel logs: http://habhub.org/zeusbot/
[15:25] <Dan-K2VOL> Nice Ed!
[15:25] #highaltitude: mode change '-o Upu' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[15:25] <Dan-K2VOL> Hi upu!
[15:25] <Dan-K2VOL> Got to get back to work, just popped in for a minute
[15:26] <UpuWork> nps
[15:26] <UpuWork> keeping busy then ? :)
[15:26] <Dan-K2VOL> Quite!
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[16:26] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SPL1 after 0320 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SPL1
[16:29] <SpeedEvil> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_swastika - on the topic of trees
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[18:26] <billrobinson> hello - first time here, having just completed #skycademy... absolutely ****** fantastic. Question - I've tried compiling DL-fldigi on OS 10.9, and keep getting "undefined symbol" error on linking - any pointers?
[18:28] <billrobinson> Or I should say, has anyone come across this themselves?
[18:30] <fsphil> seems to be a bit of a minefield compiling things on osx. but there are a few here who've managed it
[18:31] <craag> There is a mac build posted now I thinj
[18:31] <craag> *think
[18:31] <craag> https://ukhas.org.uk/projects:dl-fldigi
[18:31] <fsphil> ah yes the binary builds are back
[18:31] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
[18:32] <billrobinson> I've battered several dependencies into submission, but this one seems elusive. No joy with the Habhub-linked gqrx binary either, so am quietly removing the remains of my hair...
[18:32] <craag> billrobinson: Grab the binary
[18:33] <craag> They're back
[18:33] <craag> Save what hair you have remaining!
[18:34] <billrobinson> ahah - thanks very much craag- will have a look... I might get some sleep tonight!
[18:34] <daveake> Hair loss from compiling or from skycademy? :p
[18:35] <fsphil> it's nice, as a linux user, to be able to feel smug about something ;)
[18:36] <billrobinson> not from skycademy dave - unalloyed fantastic. Though sadly it has opened a world of enticing frustrations ;-)
[18:36] <fsphil> yes. welcome to stage 1 HAB'ing :)
[18:37] <billrobinson> hi fsphil - at school I'd be on Linux - quite understand. Elsewhere I use a fruity refusenik
[18:38] <daveake> Ah yes the 6 stages of HAB https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/ukhas/LkteE6wS5L8 (click on the first message)
[18:39] <daveake> I need to update that as #6 is missing
[18:39] <billrobinson> thanks fsphil - as a noob happy not to be taken out with a SAM on first contact...
[18:39] <daveake> and #6 is of course "move to a hill in the west with attached launch field"
[18:39] <billrobinson> presumably #6 is ineffable enlightment?
[18:41] <billrobinson> drat - i'm scuppered, living in the east with 270 degrees view of water. Hmm - I'm thinking very big balloons, and a season ticket to Denmark...
[18:41] <fsphil> see, that's the spirit
[18:42] <billrobinson> ha
[18:42] <daveake> We have a bored listener in Denmark just waiting for something to track
[18:42] <billrobinson> i'm sure i can help out from here...!
[18:43] <daveake> Floater season is coming, and that's about the only time he gets anything near him
[18:43] <billrobinson> has he considered moving?
[18:45] <billrobinson> going to go and wrestle that binary - thanks very much - both here, and over the last 3 days.
[18:45] <daveake> np
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[18:51] <fsphil> yeah preparing a floater atm
[18:51] <fsphil> need to get rid of some He
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[18:54] <Abdel_M0NPT> GE All, learning to program an NTX2B, can anyone direct me to a simple code please so I can test it on DL-Flidgi
[18:54] <Abdel_M0NPT> a code that Shows the name fof the Balloon please too on Hab Tracker
[18:54] <Abdel_M0NPT> any help would be appreciated
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[19:01] <daveake> !ukhas ntx2+arduino
[19:01] <daveake> ok ...
[19:01] <daveake> !wiki ntx2+arduino
[19:01] <SpacenearUS> 03daveake: No results for your query
[19:01] <daveake> grr
[19:01] <daveake> https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2
[19:06] <Abdel_M0NPT> thank you all, found something on google and I am testing it now, thank you
[19:06] <craag> shall we take bets on who's github repo it is?
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[19:16] <Lunar_Lander> evening
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[20:02] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 034_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=4_chase
[20:10] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03pnh;j;tg_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=pnh%3Bj%3Btg_chase
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[20:34] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03G-12 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=G-12
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[21:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SV9RHE_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SV9RHE_chase
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[21:23] Nick change: Crashbone -> Crashbone|Away
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[21:48] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CALLSIGN123_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CALLSIGN123_chase
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[21:57] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
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[22:03] Nick change: Crashbone|Away -> Crashbone
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[22:31] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HB9FDK-11 after 038 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HB9FDK-11
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[23:41] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03F5MVO_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=F5MVO_chase
[00:00] --- Thu Aug 27 2015