highaltitude.log.20150813

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[06:42] <tweetBot> @NORB_HAB: I have been accepted into Southampton!!!!!!! #ukhas
[06:44] <M0XIN> Morning
[06:45] <Vaizki> 'ning
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[07:11] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RPF-PITS - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RPF-PITS
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[07:33] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BV2DQ-12 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BV2DQ-12
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[08:09] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03K6RPT-11 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K6RPT-11
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[08:14] <jkerman> bit of a long shot, but are there any HABbers around at the chaos communication camp?
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[08:25] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Yes there are a couple try the #ukhasnet channel more likely to find them there
[08:32] <jkerman> cheers
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[09:37] <ibanezmatt13> Soppy moment alert: I'm off to Southampton uni with my 3x A* and I wouldn't have even been doing A-level maths, nevermind further, had it not been for getting into HAB and meeting the people who give their time to teaching people like myself. Y'all know who you are, thanks guys! :D
[09:39] <mfa298> Congrats ibanezmatt13 and let the learning continue (and congrats to all the people that helped encourage you)
[09:40] <daveake> good job Matt
[09:40] <ibanezmatt13> Thanks :)
[09:41] <daveake> Soton was on my list but sadly I didn't show the good taste to actually go there
[09:41] <ibanezmatt13> ah, yeah I'm absolutely made up, I never expected to do as well as I've done
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[09:44] <fsphil> congrats!
[09:45] <ibanezmatt13> Thanks Phil :)
[09:49] <ibanezmatt13> Looks like we're starting the celebrations early, back later :)
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[09:50] <Vaizki> hrmpf I need one of these http://nipponpulse.com/catalog/parts/search/motors-rotary-tin-can-steppers/part_id:273 but only online supplier I found as a MOQ of 5
[09:50] <Vaizki> has a
[09:51] <Vaizki> and ebay has a NOS one which looks like stock was stored in the bilge of a ship :)
[09:52] <Vaizki> so if any of you rockety or mechatronical hangarounds can tip me off to a uk supplier who might have this kind of stuff available on a one piece basis, much appreciated :)
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[10:00] <edmoore> Vaizki: 12V, 7.5degree step angle, >=120mNm holding torque, that kind of flangey mounting, http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/stepper-motors/0440290/
[10:00] <fsphil> ah RS are still doing that 15% off thing
[10:01] <Vaizki> edmoore, hmm thanks I'll have to see if that would fit
[10:01] <edmoore> if you've the emotional strength to fight their website then you can doa parametric search to home in on something suitable
[10:06] <Vaizki> yea well that seems to be very close.. it's 1cm thicker though
[10:17] <Vaizki> seems to be best fit in RS that one. need to measure if it will fit in the radome.
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[11:30] <Laurenceb> anyone want to help me out?
[11:30] <Laurenceb> http://filebin.ca/2Bzbx4UuZutH/figure13_cool1_shape.svg
[11:30] <Laurenceb> I need to move the red lines to top of stack
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[11:30] <Laurenceb> cant make this work in inkscape :-/
[11:32] <adamgreig> click red line, click home
[11:33] <Laurenceb> yeah tried that
[11:33] <mattbrejza> just print it out, get some tracing paper and do it my hand
[11:33] <Laurenceb> nothing happening :(
[11:33] <Laurenceb> heh yeah I'm seriously at that stage
[11:33] <mattbrejza> you would have been finished yesturday at the rate youre going
[11:33] <Laurenceb> I know
[11:34] <Laurenceb> I should probably pay a graphic designer
[11:34] <Laurenceb> better use of my time
[11:36] <mattbrejza> Laurenceb: click the red line, then click the move to top button
[11:36] <mattbrejza> works fine here
[11:38] <adamgreig> 'home' is the move to top button, also worked for me
[11:38] <adamgreig> though your red lines are all broken up
[11:38] <adamgreig> so you might need to do ita few times etc
[11:38] <adamgreig> you can also send everything else to back with 'end' :P
[11:39] Nick change: MoALTz_ -> MoALTz
[11:39] <mattbrejza> for me all the red/blue lines are grouped together as one thing
[11:40] <Laurenceb> ah i got it
[11:40] <Laurenceb> had to move the green to the back
[11:40] <Laurenceb> but same result in the end
[11:41] <adamgreig> you were probably selecting the green to start with :P
[11:41] <adamgreig> selecting things under things is a pain, idk how best to do that
[11:42] <mattbrejza> you click a green line you select the green libe, click the red one and you select the red one..?
[11:42] <mattbrejza> perhaps we have slightly different versions
[11:42] <Laurenceb> yeah, I just opdated it
[11:42] <Laurenceb> looks like newer version is slightly easier to use
[11:44] <Laurenceb> unfortunatly I still can't see a way to do the hatching thats not manual
[11:46] <mattbrejza> if you have a polygon area you can hatch fill it
[11:47] <Laurenceb> with vector fill?
[11:47] <mattbrejza> yea
[11:47] <Laurenceb> oh
[11:47] <Laurenceb> how?
[11:48] <mattbrejza> well if you use the pen tool to draw any shape, then in the fill menu you can fill it with stripes
[11:48] <Laurenceb> hmm ok
[11:48] <Laurenceb> I'll give it a go
[12:06] <Laurenceb> hmm
[12:06] <Laurenceb> on verge of giving up :(
[12:06] <Laurenceb> "Hatches (rough)" is precisely not what i had in mind
[12:17] <mfa298> it's an svg, open in vi and edit the file that way ;)
[12:18] <Laurenceb> is svg xml based?
[12:18] <Laurenceb> I might be able to write a python script...
[12:19] <mfa298> been a while since I played with them, but it's all described in a form of markup
[12:20] <Laurenceb> yeah, seems its xml based
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[13:46] <adamgreig> hey mattbrejza, I was thinking about error codes last night while watching the meteor shower
[13:46] <adamgreig> I wanna send fixed-length 16 byte packets
[13:46] <adamgreig> could use 24 goes of a hamming 7,4
[13:46] <adamgreig> plus interleaver
[13:46] <adamgreig> do you think turbo codes would be better?
[13:46] <adamgreig> 32 goes, lol
[13:46] <mattbrejza> hmm 16 bytes is kinda short
[13:47] <adamgreig> it's nice because 32 rounds of hamming (7,4) gives 224 bits which is 28 bytes
[13:47] <adamgreig> so I can transmit 28 byte packets
[13:47] <adamgreig> that decode to 16 byte packets
[13:47] <adamgreig> and not lose any rate
[13:47] <mattbrejza> if you just want to counter a few spikes of interference itll probably be fine
[13:47] <adamgreig> and so correct up to 32 errors, with a good interleaver even a burst of 32 consecutive bit errors
[13:47] <mattbrejza> or rather turbo wont give you much more
[13:48] <adamgreig> it would be OK to group packets though
[13:48] <adamgreig> could do like 1024 packets of 16 bytes is a more respectable 16KB packet
[13:48] <adamgreig> which is like 131kbit
[13:49] <adamgreig> but like... almost certainly more effort than a (7,4) and interleaver?
[13:49] <mattbrejza> bear in mind maxiumum bit length of a LTE 'packet' is 6144 bytes
[13:49] <adamgreig> hmm
[13:49] <adamgreig> that's not that long
[13:49] <mattbrejza> so 200bits isnt too bad actually
[13:49] <adamgreig> well 16 bytes is 128 bits
[13:49] <mattbrejza> oh i saw 24 bytes
[13:49] <adamgreig> it would be coded
[13:49] <adamgreig> 16 byte packets through a (7,4) code is exactly 24 bytes
[13:49] <mattbrejza> what are you intending to decode on?
[13:49] <mattbrejza> sdr+pc?
[13:50] <adamgreig> yea
[13:50] <adamgreig> or yaesu+pc sort of thing
[13:50] <adamgreig> baseband is AFSK over FM
[13:50] <adamgreig> if I have time I will investigate doing just 2FSK and having the computer track the shift
[13:50] <mattbrejza> well id just use turbo seeing i know them...
[13:50] <mattbrejza> depends what rate you want though
[13:50] <adamgreig> meh
[13:51] <adamgreig> got half a watt and line of sight
[13:51] <adamgreig> would enjoy getting like double digits packets a second
[13:51] <adamgreig> so say 2 or 3 kbit/s ?
[13:51] <adamgreig> wonder what coding rate that is
[13:51] <adamgreig> hard to guess at an snr and bandwidth is a bit confusing when it's AFSK
[13:52] <adamgreig> but say you use 12kHz bandwidth and lose 3dB for the AFSK and otherwise have idk 20dB SNR
[13:52] <mattbrejza> indeed, i cant really suggest a code or a rate off the top of my head :P
[13:52] <mattbrejza> also what fading conditions do you expect
[13:52] <mattbrejza> moving causes time or frerquency based fading..? (i cant remember lol)
[13:53] <adamgreig> depends on multipath
[13:53] <adamgreig> I expect very little multipath
[13:53] <adamgreig> compared to strength of the direct path anyway
[13:53] <adamgreig> antenna construction is very symmetrical and it's in a symmetrical radome so rotation shouldn't be too bad
[13:53] <mattbrejza> well youll get reflections off the ground to your antenna
[13:54] <adamgreig> those aren't going to have a dramatically different path length though
[13:54] <adamgreig> should be quite good coherence bandwidth
[13:54] <mattbrejza> well we can probably use hab based experience here
[13:55] <adamgreig> hab experience would suggest running 300db rtty :P
[13:55] <mattbrejza> i think most hab fading is caused by the antenna waving around?
[13:55] <adamgreig> that is my suspicion
[13:55] <adamgreig> seems ot be at that sort of timescale
[13:55] <mattbrejza> rather than any multipath
[13:55] <adamgreig> but at the baud rates we use
[13:55] <adamgreig> multipath would have to be Xtreme
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[13:56] <adamgreig> like, each bit period is 1Mm
[13:56] <adamgreig> at 300 baud even
[13:56] <Laurenceb> I'd suggest 4PSK with a lot of FEC
[13:56] <adamgreig> thanks
[13:56] <adamgreig> can't do PSK
[13:56] <adamgreig> FSK transmitter
[13:56] <Laurenceb> for best performance
[13:56] <Laurenceb> oh
[13:56] <Laurenceb> hmm
[13:57] <adamgreig> and specifically using AFSK to avoid having to compensate for ~3kHz doppler shift
[13:57] <Laurenceb> IMO it might be a case of diminishing returns
[13:57] <Laurenceb> 3khz doppler...
[13:57] <adamgreig> what isn't
[13:57] <Laurenceb> i detect rocketry
[13:57] <adamgreig> well yep
[13:57] <adamgreig> not a secret, this is the martlet 2 radio
[13:57] <Laurenceb> ah
[13:57] <mattbrejza> well i think the afsk limits your symbol rate, baud rate related to shift etc
[13:58] <Laurenceb> whats the altitude target for martlet 2 ?
[13:58] <mattbrejza> then passband of thte radio
[13:58] <adamgreig> 15km ish
[13:58] <Laurenceb> cool
[13:58] <adamgreig> depends on how much time we spend polishing
[13:58] <Laurenceb> no threat of 100km then :D
[13:58] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: hmm interesting yea I guess so
[13:58] <adamgreig> Laurenceb: not this time around no
[13:58] <adamgreig> though it's always a bit upsetting how much little extra energy it would take to get there really
[13:59] <adamgreig> all goes to waste in the crazy mach 3 through the bottom of the atmosphere
[13:59] <Laurenceb> I can get back to swearing at graphs
[13:59] <bertrik> minimum shift keying uses a shift of half the bitrate if I remember correctly
[13:59] <Laurenceb> well you could avoid the atmosphere....
[13:59] <adamgreig> would struggle to loft this above the atmosphere
[13:59] <adamgreig> bertrik: yea, it does, and it also pulse shapes
[13:59] <mattbrejza> yea you could always do MSK over AFSK i guess
[14:00] <mattbrejza> (cant see why not)
[14:00] <mattbrejza> not sure pulse shaping is needed
[14:00] <adamgreig> technically if you don't it's not really msk
[14:00] <adamgreig> well
[14:00] <adamgreig> no
[14:00] <adamgreig> guess you just need it to be continuous phase
[14:00] <adamgreig> and it'l be the same thing
[14:00] <adamgreig> and I will probably be aiming for continuous phase fsk anyway
[14:00] <Laurenceb> I'm honestly not sure of the best way to get to 100km
[14:01] <mattbrejza> well by having the shift equal to half the baud you ensure that?
[14:01] <Laurenceb> theres so many options wrt rocket (or gun) design
[14:01] <Laurenceb> itd be cool to do a really in depth engineering trade off
[14:01] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: what would be the advantage though?
[14:02] <mattbrejza> more throughput
[14:02] <adamgreig> through the discriminator of the radio?
[14:02] <adamgreig> am starting to wonder a bit if I'd be better off not doing afsk and trying to track the doppler instead
[14:02] <adamgreig> SDR bandwidht would cope happily
[14:02] <SpeedEvil> :)
[14:02] <Laurenceb> why not just SDR and costas loop?
[14:02] <mattbrejza> yea if sdr then meh
[14:02] <Laurenceb> admittedly thatd require 2PSK
[14:02] <adamgreig> Laurenceb: original plan had no SDR, just an 817 FM into a PC
[14:03] <Laurenceb> which is slightly sub optimal, especially if you want a ton of FEC
[14:03] <Laurenceb> oh
[14:03] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: that said I do have a cable to get raw discriminator into the PC, skipping audio filters
[14:03] <Laurenceb> at the conference I'll present our solution
[14:03] <adamgreig> so you get more like 9kHz discriminator bandwidth instead of 1kHz or so
[14:03] <Laurenceb> which is 2PSK
[14:03] <Laurenceb> with silabs
[14:03] <adamgreig> solution to what?
[14:03] <Laurenceb> rocket radio
[14:03] <mattbrejza> i guess 9kHz is enough to not need to bother with msk
[14:03] <mattbrejza> seeing as msk requires a coherent demod
[14:04] <adamgreig> PSK with silabs is cute, is this the same trick we were talking about in 2013 or so?
[14:04] <Laurenceb> the nice thing about 2PSK is you can chuck it into a costas and output integrated phase
[14:04] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:04] <adamgreig> even had simulation code in octave or something gross
[14:04] <adamgreig> right
[14:04] <Laurenceb> thats when we developed it lol
[14:05] <Laurenceb> since then I've spent my time drawing graphs :(
[14:05] <adamgreig> could probably do that on this setup too I guess, hmm
[14:05] <adamgreig> maybe anyway. it's the radiometrix mtx2 which is a silabs inside but the input to it just pulls the crystal
[14:05] <mattbrejza> seeing as we now all have sdrs doing psk is less necessary, just do wide fsk
[14:06] <adamgreig> psk still seems a lot nicer
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[14:06] <adamgreig> but I guess wide fsk and +fhss you can do quite well
[14:06] <mattbrejza> except you dont have a radio that can do it
[14:06] <mattbrejza> without sending up your hackrf
[14:06] <adamgreig> lol
[14:06] <adamgreig> next time...
[14:06] <adamgreig> so that's the thing, you can be gross and cheat and use the silabs fsk to do psk
[14:07] <adamgreig> so could get a bpsk thing going in theory
[14:07] <adamgreig> and then indeed costas makes tracking doppler relatively easy
[14:07] <mattbrejza> that has a horrible looking spectrum?
[14:07] <adamgreig> yea
[14:07] <adamgreig> gross spectrum
[14:07] <adamgreig> shame you can't buy small psk radios
[14:07] <mattbrejza> well ti have their dsss radio coming out
[14:07] <adamgreig> is it proprietary tho?
[14:08] <mattbrejza> not in the same way lora is
[14:08] <Laurenceb> recently I've come round to the idea of gun launch
[14:08] <adamgreig> glto?
[14:08] <Laurenceb> gun from ~35km to 100km
[14:08] <adamgreig> hmm
[14:08] <adamgreig> I reckon you will have like 100x the regulatory difficulties?
[14:08] <Laurenceb> there are 100kG xtals
[14:08] <Laurenceb> yes, that is true :P
[14:09] <mattbrejza> i thought you solved that crystal issue :P
[14:09] <Laurenceb> but it does look fairly "easy"
[14:09] <Laurenceb> yes i solved that
[14:09] <adamgreig> solved it by buying milspec scary xtals?
[14:09] <Laurenceb> iirc there might even be some on digikey
[14:09] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:09] <adamgreig> I've seen the RF relays designed for scary situations
[14:09] <mattbrejza> temperature compensated RC?
[14:09] <adamgreig> they are Intense with a capital I
[14:09] <Laurenceb> matt: not needed
[14:09] <mattbrejza> what did you need a crystal for? gps?
[14:10] <Laurenceb> doppler tracking
[14:10] <Laurenceb> to reconstruct the trajectory
[14:10] <Laurenceb> main issue with gun launch is the breech block
[14:10] <Laurenceb> thats a pita to machine
[14:10] <adamgreig> check out http://www.teledynerelays.com/pdf/electromechanical/400k.pdf for example
[14:10] <Laurenceb> everything else could be woven CF tube
[14:11] <adamgreig> though that's only 4kG lol
[14:11] <mattbrejza> lol relay in to-5
[14:11] <Laurenceb> yeah I ended up writing full CFD+ combustion sim code
[14:12] <Laurenceb> looked like ~40kG max accel on launch to 1.5km/s
[14:12] <Laurenceb> managed to find a load of raw data from DARPA light gas gun work for calibrating the model
[14:12] <Laurenceb> *combustion light gas gun
[14:12] <Laurenceb> I was simulating compressed air + propane
[14:14] <mattbrejza> does 100kg of shock just destroy crystals?
[14:14] <mattbrejza> even if unpowered?
[14:16] <Laurenceb> yes
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[14:18] <mattbrejza> you can get crystal-less radios
[14:19] <Laurenceb> main problem with a gun is the breech block
[14:19] <Laurenceb> not the radio
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[14:20] <mattbrejza> oh yes didnt see that
[14:20] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
[14:21] <Laurenceb> unless you avoid the breech block entirely...
[14:21] <Laurenceb> which worked very well in sim
[14:21] <Laurenceb> but involves a projectile that somehow seals the propellant in place
[14:22] <mattbrejza> what size object are you looking to fire?
[14:22] <Laurenceb> ~100grams
[14:22] <Laurenceb> ~25mm diameter (including fins) worked well
[14:23] <Laurenceb> i.e. barrel diameter
[14:23] <mattbrejza> fins..?
[14:23] <adamgreig> don't need fins without atmosphere
[14:23] <adamgreig> oh
[14:23] <mattbrejza> i could just wait 1.5 weeks
[14:23] <adamgreig> yea
[14:23] <adamgreig> fins?!
[14:23] <adamgreig> for spin stab?
[14:23] <Laurenceb> its at mach 4 or 5
[14:24] <Laurenceb> it needs fins
[14:24] <Laurenceb> lol
[14:24] <Laurenceb> http://i.ytimg.com/vi/debBeBHWTf8/maxresdefault.jpg
[14:24] <adamgreig> lol
[14:24] <Laurenceb> i guess ball type pojectiles might just work
[14:24] <Laurenceb> ""might
[14:25] <Laurenceb> there is another way to achieve the same results...
[14:25] <Laurenceb> liquid air in a thermos...
[14:25] <adamgreig> mm yes I think I have some of that around here somewhere
[14:26] <Laurenceb> heh
[14:27] <Laurenceb> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009G4C0WC/?tag=losweifas0d4-20
[14:27] <adamgreig> was thinking of using an RS code instead of the hamming one
[14:27] <adamgreig> but idk if they're much good as inner codes over radio channels
[14:27] <adamgreig> usually only see them on different channels and as outer codes
[14:28] <Laurenceb> doesnt RS operate at syumbol level?
[14:28] <Laurenceb> *symbol
[14:28] <mattbrejza> yea
[14:28] <adamgreig> it can operate on GF(2)
[14:28] <adamgreig> or bytewise GF(256), whatever
[14:28] <adamgreig> so?
[14:29] <mattbrejza> tbh just work out how much throughput you require and how much bandwidth you hvae
[14:29] <mattbrejza> and fill in the gap with fec
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[14:30] <adamgreig> it's more a question of how much throughput I can get
[14:31] <adamgreig> required is like one packet a second with a lat/lng
[14:31] <adamgreig> the more I can get above that the better
[14:31] <adamgreig> going to be fairly limited by the input bandwidth of the mtx2
[14:31] <adamgreig> which is designed to do up to 9600bd rs232 :p
[14:33] <mattbrejza> well being conservative wont hurt
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[14:33] <mattbrejza> probably more a case of what you feel like implementing
[14:34] <adamgreig> yea
[14:34] <adamgreig> still quite undecided about the doppler thing too
[14:34] <adamgreig> it doesn't spend all that long at mach 3
[14:34] <adamgreig> and could probably do afc
[14:34] <adamgreig> otherwise just throwing rate on the floor with afsk
[14:36] <mattbrejza> can the costas loop lock onto signals weaker than it can decode?
[14:36] <adamgreig> 'depends' i guess
[14:36] <mattbrejza> if its looking in a 5kHz BW for a 500hz signal it could lock onto an interferer?
[14:36] <adamgreig> yea possibly
[14:36] <adamgreig> half a watt output power at distances substantially smaller than HABs though
[14:38] <mattbrejza> so you might as well use AFSK
[14:38] <mattbrejza> except for hte limited bandwidth thing...
[14:38] <adamgreig> yea :p
[14:38] <mattbrejza> 1200 baud is still lots though
[14:39] <adamgreig> datasheet sez, 5kHz TX modulation bandwidth, +-3kHz peak deviation, data rates up to 10kbps
[14:39] <adamgreig> in practice I can get >>3kHz deviation, more like 15kHz or so
[14:39] <adamgreig> (by adjusting the trimpots :p)
[14:40] <Laurenceb> you could use a silabs with AFC ?
[14:40] <adamgreig> so continuous phase FSK audio being fed in at like 300Hz and 3300Hz would give 3kHz tone spacing over AFSK while staying inside the TX modulation bandwidth
[14:40] <adamgreig> Laurenceb: on the receive side?
[14:40] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:41] <adamgreig> would that be actually good?
[14:41] <Laurenceb> hmm...
[14:41] <adamgreig> I mean in any event it's basically too late to do that
[14:41] <Laurenceb> lets work this out
[14:41] <Laurenceb> oh ok lol
[14:41] <Laurenceb> whats the frequency?
[14:41] <adamgreig> 434M
[14:41] <Laurenceb> ok
[14:41] <Laurenceb> you should be fine then?
[14:41] <Laurenceb> this is just a tracker?
[14:41] <adamgreig> no
[14:41] <Laurenceb> oh
[14:41] <adamgreig> if it was just a tracker I would be exerting substantially less effort
[14:42] <adamgreig> like, ukhas rtty strings iwth lat/lng, done
[14:42] <adamgreig> afsk at 50bd
[14:42] <Laurenceb> i see
[14:42] <adamgreig> it is also the main telemetry downlink?
[14:42] <Laurenceb> what throughput do you want?
[14:42] <Laurenceb> bps
[14:42] <adamgreig> so like, system status, sensor readings, some other bits and pieces
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[14:42] <adamgreig> meh, it's really more a question of how much I can get reasonably
[14:43] <adamgreig> each datagram is 16 bytes and it would be nice to get 10 or 20 a second at least
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[14:43] <adamgreig> with a (7,4) code that's like 3kbps
[14:43] <Laurenceb> so ~2kbps
[14:43] <Laurenceb> ok
[14:43] <Laurenceb> lets take a look
[14:43] <adamgreig> if I could get up to like 5 or 8kbps that'd be nice too
[14:46] <Laurenceb> with 8dBm tx power and -1dBi tx ant gain
[14:46] <Laurenceb> 8 dBi yagi and si446x to si446x you should get 10kbps
[14:46] <adamgreig> I have more like 27dBm transmit power
[14:46] <Laurenceb> so it should work
[14:46] <mattbrejza> what channel are you assuming?
[14:47] <Laurenceb> your afc is on the ground which is a bonus
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[14:47] <mattbrejza> im not 100% sure its awgn
[14:47] <Laurenceb> 434mhz
[14:47] <Laurenceb> I'm using datasheet figures
[14:47] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[14:47] <adamgreig> the mtx2 datasheet says it's "good for up to 10kbps" but that and the Si are talking about FSK
[14:47] <adamgreig> AFSK gives you what, -3dB right from the start?
[14:48] <Laurenceb> yeah maybe...
[14:48] <Laurenceb> i forget
[14:48] <mattbrejza> its more than 3dB
[14:48] <Laurenceb> I'd just do si446x to si446x
[14:48] <mattbrejza> if it was only 3dB we should just use it for habs
[14:48] <adamgreig> we don't use it for habs cuz it's a bit harder
[14:49] <mattbrejza> i have used it for habs
[14:49] <mattbrejza> didnt work as well
[14:49] <mattbrejza> in a chasecar anyway
[14:49] <adamgreig> we used it for habs too, with the phone, worked fine on 300db
[14:49] <adamgreig> bd
[14:49] <mattbrejza> perhaps the rx was a bit shitty
[14:49] <mattbrejza> anyway i thought it was nearer 10
[14:49] <mattbrejza> 10dB
[14:50] <Laurenceb> hmm
[14:50] <Laurenceb> maybe spirit1 modules on 868
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[14:50] <Laurenceb> then you can just link them and forget about it
[14:51] <adamgreig> where's the fun in that tho
[14:51] <mattbrejza> are they fine with dopleR?
[14:51] <Laurenceb> good point
[14:51] <mattbrejza> (i wonder how lora does)
[14:51] <Laurenceb> prob not
[14:51] <mattbrejza> since you mentioned spirit
[14:51] <mcbcurator> hacking together a video from our sunrise launch yesterday... sunrise HAB video is amazing. Also, Dashware is pretty great.
[14:52] <Laurenceb> When the frequency error exceeds BWmod/2, some extra bandwidth is needed
[14:52] <Laurenceb> to assure proper AFC operation under worst-case conditions.
[14:52] <Laurenceb> so helpful
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[14:52] <adamgreig> these random habs reckon 2dB between fsk and afsk over same bandwidth http://www.amsat.org/amsat/archive/amsat-bb/200007/msg00481.html
[14:53] <mattbrejza> pfft
[14:54] <Laurenceb> ok spirit1 module to spirit1 with coax input and 12dBi yagi at 70km on 868
[14:54] <Laurenceb> does 40kbps
[14:54] <Laurenceb> at 1% PER
[14:55] <Laurenceb> but spirit1 has FEC mode that gives you quite a few dB more
[14:55] <Laurenceb> there are no benchmarks on 868mhz tho
[14:55] <Laurenceb> ooh look what i found
[14:55] <Laurenceb> http://www.st.com/st-web-ui/static/active/en/fragment/product_related/rpn_information/board_photo/image_steval-ikr001v2d.jpg
[14:56] <adamgreig> are those solder jumpers for the frequency selection lol
[14:56] <mattbrejza> lol at that resistor to mark what version it is
[14:56] <adamgreig> surely the matching network has to change too
[14:56] <Laurenceb> it does
[14:56] <mattbrejza> it just saves them marking it withj a pen
[14:56] <adamgreig> lol
[14:57] <Laurenceb> http://www.st.com/st-web-ui/static/active/en/resource/technical/document/datasheet/DM00171035.pdf
[14:58] <Laurenceb> one of those for the rocket
[14:59] <adamgreig> neat
[14:59] <adamgreig> makes me a bit sad though
[14:59] <adamgreig> makes any kind of actual radio for rx a waste of time
[14:59] <adamgreig> sdrs likewise
[14:59] <adamgreig> kinda enjoy the idea of writing a demodulator in an sdr more than writing to some registers on a radio ic and hoping it sends valid data out the pin
[14:59] <adamgreig> shrug
[15:01] <mattbrejza> these easy radios (lora etc) just seem to shift where you put in the effort rather than removing all effort
[15:01] <mattbrejza> if you want to design a radio system from scratch we need some 34mHz radios for ukhasnet buoys ;)
[15:02] <adamgreig> they shift the effort to plugging modules together and writing firmware that writes the right registers
[15:02] <adamgreig> boring grunt work :P
[15:03] <mattbrejza> what i meant is that now you can come up with some facny ARQ stuff to get decent throughput
[15:03] <adamgreig> I guess yea
[15:03] <adamgreig> but you barely even need to
[15:03] <mattbrejza> did you see daves ssdv stuff?
[15:03] <mattbrejza> at high lora throughputs?
[15:03] <adamgreig> nope
[15:03] <mattbrejza> many dropped packets
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> Will the module cope with the G though
[15:05] <SpeedEvil> Or do I mean g
[15:06] <SpeedEvil> One won't normally vary
[15:08] <Laurenceb> so using the 5dBm radiated power
[15:08] <Laurenceb> at 50km with 11dbi yagi on the ground
[15:08] <Laurenceb> and FEc turned on, you should get 40kbps
[15:09] <adamgreig> that's a lot
[15:09] <adamgreig> what bandwidth does that take up?
[15:11] <Laurenceb> ~100khz
[15:12] <Laurenceb> actually maybe the FEC halves the data rate
[15:12] <adamgreig> lol jeez
[15:12] <Laurenceb> not sure...
[15:12] <adamgreig> that'l be popular for airborne ism
[15:13] <Laurenceb> Convolutional coding with
[15:13] <Laurenceb> a rate=½ and k=4 is applied on the payload
[15:13] <Laurenceb> and CRC before transmission (poly [13,17]
[15:13] <Laurenceb> yup
[15:15] <Laurenceb> yeah so 20kbps data rate
[15:15] <Laurenceb> then overhead for packets etc
[15:15] <Laurenceb> so ~10kbps throughput
[15:15] <Laurenceb> seems to meet your requirements
[15:16] <adamgreig> except for the not coping with sudden doppler?
[15:16] <Laurenceb> something like this on ground
[15:16] <Laurenceb> http://www.rfsolutions.co.uk/acatalog/info_CA860Y_____TNC.html
[15:16] <Laurenceb> it should cope
[15:16] <Laurenceb> lets work it out
[15:16] <adamgreig> £338!!!
[15:16] <adamgreig> who buys that
[15:17] <Laurenceb> lul
[15:17] <Laurenceb> it should be fine up to 3km/s
[15:17] <mattbrejza> you probably see them besides railway lines and stuff like that
[15:17] <Laurenceb> without even turning on the AFC
[15:17] <adamgreig> like, this thing is launching in a bit over a month and I already have the radio transmitter and SDR
[15:17] <Laurenceb> so thats why HS2 is so expensive
[15:17] <adamgreig> it's definitely using the mtx2 :p
[15:18] <adamgreig> questions really are just whether I should use AFSK and what ECC if any
[15:18] <adamgreig> or even attempt your dodgy psk thing
[15:18] <mattbrejza> just use afsk and copy the ssdv RS code
[15:18] <mattbrejza> simples
[15:20] <mattbrejza> btw what do other rockets use?
[15:20] <craag> I hear amell uses lora.
[15:21] <adamgreig> wifi
[15:21] <craag> with rf output attenuation.
[15:21] <adamgreig> is that a euphemism?
[15:21] <adamgreig> a lot of amateur rockets don't really try and get anything until late descent/landing. APRS is popular in the states too
[15:22] <mattbrejza> meh if wifi works a few kbps with afsk is probably fine
[15:22] <adamgreig> the wifi is a bit special snowflakey
[15:23] <mattbrejza> just have it switch to a slow mode on landing so you can find it again
[15:23] <adamgreig> got wraparound conformal antennas and yagis on the ground and ad hoc network stuff
[15:23] <mattbrejza> data is saved anyway?
[15:23] <adamgreig> oh yea definitely, it's far too much data to go over the air
[15:23] <mattbrejza> you wont even be looking at the screen, rather looking at it in the air
[15:24] <adamgreig> 5 minute flight
[15:24] <adamgreig> will lose visual fairly quick
[15:24] <adamgreig> probs
[15:24] <mattbrejza> how much of that is it coming down?
[15:24] <adamgreig> ~4min
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[15:26] <adamgreig> hmm more like 8 minutes actually
[15:26] <adamgreig> ish
[15:26] <mattbrejza> i thought it would be a bit more going on hab landing times
[15:26] <adamgreig> dual deployment
[15:26] <mattbrejza> ah
[15:26] <adamgreig> very slow at the end but quite speedy descent before the last few hundred m
[15:27] <mattbrejza> what triggers the second one? altitude via pressure sensor?
[15:28] <adamgreig> altitude via state estimation/sensor fusion
[15:28] <craag> lolpatch https://www.coolcomponents.co.uk/gps-receiver-gp-735-56-channel.html
[15:28] <adamgreig> haha weird
[15:28] <craag> ublox7 tho
[15:28] <craag> they're catching up
[15:28] <adamgreig> nothing wrong with the 7s
[15:29] <craag> yeah was saying it as a good thing :)
[15:29] <adamgreig> ah :P yea
[15:29] <craag> except the reduced immunity to mattbrejamming ofc
[15:29] <adamgreig> though like, compared to a chipscale antenna and max chip
[15:29] <adamgreig> kind of huge
[15:30] <craag> yeha
[15:32] <Laurenceb> the RF solutions GPs was actually really nice
[15:32] <Laurenceb> this http://uk.farnell.com/productimages/standard/en_GB/1718692-40.jpg
[15:32] <Laurenceb> ARM with correlator ASIC, very cool design
[15:33] <craag> hopefully better their 868 antennas: http://i.imgur.com/BN7uYFf.jpg
[15:33] <craag> *better than
[15:33] <Laurenceb> heh
[15:33] <Laurenceb> wow
[15:35] <craag> that plastic casing will hold a full 1/4 wave (what I thought I was buying)
[15:37] <adamgreig> lol
[15:37] <adamgreig> reminds me of these 434MHz ones
[15:37] <adamgreig> trying to share the link from dropbox has caused firefox to freeze though lol
[15:37] <adamgreig> thanks flash
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[15:38] <Laurenceb> yeah firefox is doing that a lot recently
[15:38] <adamgreig> I blame flash but still
[15:38] <adamgreig> wish dropbox didn't use flash for the share button lol
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[15:40] <mattbrejza> ive disabled flash
[15:40] <mattbrejza> nothing i care about has stopped working
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[15:41] <adamgreig> https://www.dropbox.com/sc/nt270tnz3yjbmt9/AABlOrgPKvQlr3vWQKHy1145a
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[15:42] <mattbrejza> how quickly does it take for that to fill up 32GB? :P
[15:42] <adamgreig> long enough to not have to worry about it
[15:42] <adamgreig> I mean, it can write a fair few MB/s
[15:43] <adamgreig> but typically doesn't
[15:44] <craag> That antenna was to make use of the limited space though.... these had plenty of space :(
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[15:51] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: lol, was checking some recent simulation data for that time-of-flight number for m2
[15:51] <adamgreig> and the file ends at 11m AGL after 87 seconds
[15:51] <adamgreig> I was like, lol what....
[15:52] <adamgreig> checked, it's for the ballistic re-entry maneuver ;)
[15:52] <mattbrejza> heh
[15:52] <adamgreig> so the descent sans parachute deployment is Quite Speedy
[15:53] <mattbrejza> so anyone in this desert has the small chance of being impaled by a rocket that has a parachute failure?
[15:54] <adamgreig> not that small
[15:54] <adamgreig> there's a PA system that alerts you to hot reentry
[15:55] <adamgreig> a sort of "heads, heads" thing
[15:55] <mattbrejza> would you see it in time though...
[15:55] <adamgreig> the impact velocity's only 250m/s
[15:56] <adamgreig> so like 560mph
[15:56] <adamgreig> you'd better hope that parachute opens really
[15:57] <mattbrejza> otherise you can turn up at the next conference with a compressed stack of electronics
[15:57] <adamgreig> ;)
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[15:59] <adamgreig> doubt it btw
[15:59] <adamgreig> wouldn't get them out of the crater
[15:59] <adamgreig> turn up at the conference with a photo of a fin-shaped impact hole
[15:59] <adamgreig> "electronics, sd card in there somewhere"
[16:00] <mattbrejza> i have seen such a photo
[16:00] <mattbrejza> cant you dig them out?
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[16:00] <adamgreig> not easily
[16:00] <adamgreig> like a) not bringing a shovel b) very deep c) very tough ground
[16:00] <adamgreig> you'd need heavy machinery really..
[16:00] <adamgreig> it took a sledgehammer to drive in tent pegs
[16:00] <mattbrejza> oh right
[16:00] <adamgreig> (quite chunky tent pegs admittedly)
[16:01] <adamgreig> (more like sections of rebar)
[16:01] <mattbrejza> any idea of average chute failure rate?
[16:01] <adamgreig> lol
[16:02] <adamgreig> the chute itself probably won't fail
[16:02] <mattbrejza> chute deployument then
[16:02] <adamgreig> well...
[16:02] <adamgreig> packing it into the deployment bag is a bit of an art
[16:02] <adamgreig> the rest comes down to my electronics really
[16:02] <adamgreig> for people using dodgy commercial altimeters, it's more common than it should be
[16:02] <adamgreig> for people using m2fc, I don't have many data points
[16:05] <mattbrejza> lol
[16:05] <adamgreig> so it's been on a handful of launches and tried to do the right thing every time
[16:05] <adamgreig> but only once was it live on real pyros
[16:05] <adamgreig> the other times it didn't know it wasn't real, but did try to fire them at the right moments
[16:05] <adamgreig> it also works well in simulation :P
[16:06] <mattbrejza> :P
[16:29] Action: Laurenceb got bitten by his spun rocket simulation
[16:29] <Laurenceb> admittedly I made a physical model too, which matched the simulation... unlike the final version
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[16:32] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[16:33] <edmoore> what chute adamgreig?
[16:33] <adamgreig> 36" drogue, 168" main, both fruitychutes
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[18:21] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC9PON-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC9PON-11
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[19:56] <Laurenceb_> arggg conference
[19:56] <Laurenceb_> I need to do some work
[19:57] <Laurenceb_> how are we for number of attendees?
[19:57] <Laurenceb_> I could arrange for some emails to be sent round UCL mailing lists if it would help
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[19:59] <adamgreig> danielsaul: ^
[19:59] <Laurenceb_> I'm just setting myself up to having to make a higher quality presentation now
[20:00] <Laurenceb_> :P
[20:00] <adamgreig> :P
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[20:11] <mcbcurator> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSksXKwGyjM
[20:11] <mcbcurator> video from our launch yesterday
[20:15] <mcbcurator> upu, daveake - a radio engineer listening to the 434 RTTY yesterday noticed sporadic frequency shifts of a couple hundred Hz. fldigi didn't blink at it, but got any idea what's going on there?
[20:15] <Upu> faulty radio engineer ?
[20:16] <mcbcurator> Haha, it's possible. He said he recorded the audio and will look into it further.
[20:17] <Upu> if you didn't see it jump on dl-fldigi I'd have to point at his kit
[20:17] <Upu> great video btw
[20:17] <Geoff-G8DHE> Nice dawn!
[20:17] <mcbcurator> I wasn't watching it - I was driving at the time. :P
[20:17] <mcbcurator> I just had the habhub tracker open with fldigi in the background
[20:17] <Upu> top job solo tracking it btw
[20:18] <mcbcurator> I'm getting better at tracking, that's for sure.
[20:19] <Upu> easy to get out of the tree ?
[20:19] <mcbcurator> hell no
[20:19] <Upu> lol
[20:19] <mcbcurator> everything is covered in thorns and spikes
[20:19] <Upu> ouch
[20:19] <mcbcurator> Texas: America's Australia
[20:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> quite a lot of latex with in after burst!
[20:19] <Upu> yeah but you can do something we can't
[20:19] <mcbcurator> APRS?
[20:19] <Upu> shoot it down
[20:19] <mcbcurator> oh, hah
[20:20] <Upu> Texas
[20:20] <Upu> they don't let you in unless you're armed
[20:20] <mcbcurator> took a fair bit of work to figure out how to get permission to get on the land
[20:21] <Upu> yeah
[20:21] <mcbcurator> and THIS time I actually had NMEA sentences on the Pi. So I could make those slick gauges for the video
[20:21] <Upu> :)
[20:22] <Upu> yeah looked good
[20:22] <Upu> noticed you were getting some SSDV too
[20:23] <mcbcurator> yeah, quite a bit. Much better than last time - I stayed out of the null this time
[20:23] <mcbcurator> didn't even need to switch to the beam antenna
[20:23] <mcbcurator> the only fault was that my phone lost data service when the balloon was near peak altitude
[20:24] <Laurenceb_> balloon recovery in Texas could be "fun"
[20:24] <Laurenceb_> what with castle act
[20:24] <mcbcurator> Not a problem if you're not trespassing!
[20:24] <Laurenceb_> need a chase armoured personnel carrier
[20:25] <mcbcurator> We don't have right to roam though, so if they tell you to get lost, you cannot have your balloon back.
[20:25] <mcbcurator> Fortunately, most people are not jerks
[20:26] <mcbcurator> I might like to try setting a gopro to 4K protune. I wonder how much better the footage would be.
[20:30] <Upu> we did one last week with a GoPro4 and a Panasonic
[20:30] <Upu> footage was very good
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[20:30] <Upu> wasn't in 4K though
[20:30] <Upu> as that chews threw SD
[20:30] <Upu> through even
[20:31] <mcbcurator> yeah, but now they've got 128 GB sd cards that should be quick enough. pricy though.
[20:31] <Upu> Might be wrong but we think it only takes 64Gb cards
[20:32] <mcbcurator> hmm
[20:32] <Upu> there was much discussion about it
[20:33] <mcbcurator> what I *really* wish is that there was something like the Black Magic, but not 5 pounds
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[20:41] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 031234_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=1234_chase
[20:43] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03car_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=car_chase
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[20:50] <Upu> the Panasonic one gave really good results
[20:51] <Upu> ping daveake whats the model ?
[20:51] <Upu> and can we show that comparison pic ?
[20:52] <Vaizki> gh-something
[20:53] <Upu> have to bear with daveake he's forgotten what IRC is and is currently having a conversation with Geoff-G8DHE via Github
[20:58] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Carchase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Carchase
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[21:04] <Geoff-G8DHE> its a slow discussion
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[21:12] <Ian_> Does bacon come in release versions?
[21:14] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[21:15] <Laurenceb_> I should remove the NSFW material from my talk
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[21:17] <Laurenceb_> I did have some scenes from "Munich" as examples of what could go wrong with a Karman line project
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[21:25] <adamgreig> hmm mattbrejza I implemented my interleaver+hamming 7,4 idea
[21:25] <adamgreig> and like, I think it's correcting errors, but it's not doing all that well
[21:25] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[21:26] <adamgreig> like 6% probability of packet error at 1% probability of bit error (not bursting)
[21:27] <adamgreig> if all errors occur in bursts of 2 i t's a littttle better
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[00:00] --- Fri Aug 14 2015