highaltitude.log.20150731

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[00:15] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03FSUS - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=FSUS
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[02:03] <charlie-os_> anyone have good suggestions for where to find information on how quickly hydrogen gas will diffuse through a baloon?
[02:05] <SpeedEvil> Exact materials matter.
[02:05] <SpeedEvil> As may hydration of the material and temperature
[02:05] <SpeedEvil> Other than that - google can find numbers often for the polymer in question
[02:05] <charlie-os_> is there a term of art?
[02:06] <charlie-os_> i have an idea to replenish gas through electrolysis of atmospheric water vapor and want to calculate if it is at all feasible, but am new to baloons
[02:06] <SpeedEvil> The http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-64/
[02:06] <SpeedEvil> this lasted ~6mo
[02:06] <SpeedEvil> In principle - sure.
[02:07] <SpeedEvil> Gas loss isn't a limit - the above was looking likely to exceed 12mo - from a diffusion POV
[02:07] <SpeedEvil> Clearly - larger balloons would have an even smaller diffusion
[02:07] <charlie-os_> wow, awesome
[02:08] <charlie-os_> what ends up being the limit to how long they can fly?
[02:08] <SpeedEvil> UV degradation of the envelope, for one
[02:08] <SpeedEvil> and payload lifetime, as well as hitting weather
[02:08] <SpeedEvil> you need to get up to ~20km or so, ideally
[02:11] <charlie-os_> interesting about UV degradation
[02:11] <charlie-os_> ill do some more reading on that / payload limits
[02:12] <charlie-os_> thanks!
[02:33] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03LilPig - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=LilPig
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[06:20] <SA6BSS> 2015-07-30 22:54 VE3KCL 10.140155 -24 0 HP86 +3 0.002 SA6BSS JO68sc 2068 1285
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[06:20] <SA6BSS> 2015-07-30 23:56 VE3KCL 10.140155 -27 0 JF30 +43 19.953 SA6BSS JO68sc 10873 6756
[06:20] <SA6BSS> got a couple of wspr spots last night
[06:21] <SA6BSS> from ve3kcl balloon
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[09:58] <Laurenceb> nomnative determinism strikes again
[09:59] <Laurenceb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britton_Chance
[09:59] <Laurenceb> At the 1952 Summer Olympics, Chance won a gold medal in sailing.
[09:59] <Laurenceb> apart from the fact he was american
[09:59] <LunarWork> also inventor of the stopped-flow method
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[11:30] <SA6BSS> ve3kcl balloon is back :) /wspr
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[12:10] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DF0HSA-3 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DF0HSA-3
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[12:14] Action: craag slaps tweetBot
[12:16] Nick change: craag -> realTweetBot
[12:16] <realTweetBot> Another HAB Launch with @SUSpaceflight this weekend. From the New Forest sometime 10-11am Sunday. 33km burst, LoRa + RTTY #ukhas
[12:16] Nick change: realTweetBot -> craag
[12:17] <UpuWork> fake!
[12:17] <craag> Don't know what you mean ;)
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[12:37] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Haha!
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[14:17] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KD9CFC-2 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD9CFC-2
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[15:47] <stilldavid> I'm curious if anyone's made a "reverse predictor" out of the habhub predict code
[15:47] <stilldavid> as in, "I want it to land here, where do I launch from"
[15:48] <stilldavid> someone sent me a bit of python for one that bruteforces it from the predict API, am wondering if there's a better/more sane way
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[15:50] <craag> I guess you just modify the predictor code to use the ascent/descent profiles in reverse.
[15:51] <OZ7EMA> i agree with craag
[15:51] <stilldavid> sounds sane enough.
[15:52] <craag> tell adamgreig he needs it as another feature on the new web ui ;)
[15:52] <stilldavid> I'm sure he'll be thrilled :)
[15:53] <adamgreig> stilldavid: there's one that brute forces it from the current API? haha gnarly
[15:53] <adamgreig> so it's on the feature list and has been for some time
[15:53] <stilldavid> https://github.com/Jimmygtr11/weather_balloon
[15:53] <adamgreig> I can't remember if it's actually as simple as that though
[15:54] <stilldavid> was written by a high school student here in the US
[15:54] <adamgreig> amazing
[15:55] <adamgreig> one of the problems is you need to run backwards in time
[15:55] <stilldavid> ah, right.
[15:55] <adamgreig> the predictor does a linear interpolation between data points in pressure, lat, long, and time as well (and between pressure and altitude too) so it's like 5d
[15:55] <adamgreig> still doable but needs a little more thought
[15:56] <adamgreig> and your earliest landing has to be a few hours after the start of the dataset you're using, etc
[15:56] <Lunar_Lander> hi stilldavid :)
[15:56] <OZ7EMA> i think should be no problem.. as iterpolation in time should be ok forward and back ward
[15:56] <adamgreig> still it's on the list
[15:56] <adamgreig> it's not a problem but it's not super duper simple to implement
[15:56] <adamgreig> or rather, we've implemented it for forwards time
[15:56] <OZ7EMA> true! :)
[15:57] <adamgreig> https://github.com/cuspaceflight/tawhiri/issues/95
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[16:01] <stilldavid> still no way to "like" a github issue, huh.
[16:02] <adamgreig> the thing seems to be commenting with :+1:
[16:02] <adamgreig> until eventually someone closes the comment thread
[16:03] Nick change: ghoti_ -> ghoti
[16:05] <Laurenceb> lol like
[16:05] <Laurenceb> is that still a thing
[16:05] <stilldavid> is tawhiri currently used on habhub?
[16:05] <adamgreig> yes/no/kindof
[16:05] <adamgreig> basically no
[16:05] <stilldavid> haha, "it's complicated"
[16:06] <adamgreig> https://github.com/cuspaceflight/tawhiri-oldui-juryrig
[16:06] <adamgreig> ^ currently powers habhub
[16:06] <stilldavid> v2-final-final-done-finished-FINAL.jpg
[16:06] <adamgreig> tawhiri and its api are done, but work is ongoing on the web ui
[16:06] <stilldavid> gotcha.
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[16:51] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03TROUPYS after 032 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=TROUPYS
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[16:57] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03TROUPYS_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=TROUPYS_chase
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[17:35] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DO2EIM-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DO2EIM-1
[17:39] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
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[18:06] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KG7TMT-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KG7TMT-11
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[18:34] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC9OYJ-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC9OYJ-11
[18:38] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DBSAT1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DBSAT1
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[19:35] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PYSY - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PYSY
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[20:26] <esculca> hey guys
[20:26] <esculca> nobady accepted my launch annoucement for tomorrow's morning
[20:27] <adamgreig> no pending messages to the mailing list as far as I can see
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[20:28] <esculca> can't you see mine?
[20:28] <adamgreig> when/what?
[20:29] <esculca> jul 29th
[20:29] <esculca> Launch Announcement - Portugal 1-Aug-2015 Vila Real
[20:29] <adamgreig> it was posted 2 days ago
[20:29] <adamgreig> the list doesn't send your emails back to you
[20:30] <adamgreig> but you can check https://groups.google.com/group/ukhas/
[20:30] <esculca> oh, I see
[20:30] <esculca> sorry then
[20:30] <esculca> :)
[20:30] <esculca> I thought I would receive the email later on
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[21:34] <andew> Hi guys, what kind of material uses leo bodnar for his ballons?
[21:34] <andew> http://regmedia.co.uk/2014/08/01/b_64_balloon_test.jpg
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[21:36] <Geoff-G8DHE> andew, 11:00 @ https://ukhas.org.uk/general:ukhasconference2015
[21:38] <richardeoin> probably multi-layer polyamide film
[21:39] <richardeoin> so polyethene/polyamide/tie/EVOH
[21:39] <richardeoin> but yeah come to the conference :)
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[21:41] <andew> Geoff-G8DHE looks pretty interesting - must check plane ticket price :)
[21:41] <Laurenceb__> no
[21:41] <andew> richardeoin I'm from Slovenia :)
[21:41] <Geoff-G8DHE> Its always an interesting day! So many varying subjects to listen/talk about
[21:41] <Laurenceb__> PE/EVOH/Nylon6
[21:41] <Laurenceb__> prob tie layers in there
[21:43] <richardeoin> so the polyamide layer is definitely Nylon6 Laurenceb__ ?
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[21:45] <fearnor> hai
[21:45] <Laurenceb__> t is usually for those sort of films aiui
[21:45] <Laurenceb__> I'd like to investigate UV treatment
[21:45] <richardeoin> hmm you could put the EVOH/PA layer either way round, but it's best to have the PE on the outside for heat sealing
[21:45] <Laurenceb__> but thats only important once you get to Leo scale flight durations
[21:45] <Laurenceb__> yes, EVOH heat sealing is a pita
[21:46] <Laurenceb__> and once you have Leo scale durations, battery endurance is the problem
[21:46] <richardeoin> as is PA, I tried various temperature with no luck
[21:46] <Laurenceb__> oh
[21:46] <Laurenceb__> yeah PA cant be heat sealed
[21:46] <richardeoin> :)
[21:47] <richardeoin> So Leo just has the battery hooked up directly to the solar mppt output - does that reduce the lifetime of the battery?
[21:47] <Laurenceb__> no
[21:48] <Laurenceb__> the ST MPPT IC is designed to drive lipo
[21:48] <Laurenceb__> it was the very low nightime temperature at ~12.5Km that killed his lipo
[21:48] <richardeoin> but maybe there would be multiple small charge/discharge at dawn and dusk
[21:48] <Laurenceb__> he had special low temp lipos
[21:48] <Laurenceb__> that were good to -50C, but that wasnt quite enough in winter
[21:48] <Laurenceb__> one option is to go for solar power only
[21:49] <Laurenceb__> I looked at longwave IR power, thats doable
[21:49] <Laurenceb__> but hard
[21:49] <richardeoin> Hmmm were those low temp Lipos LiFePO4?
[21:49] <Laurenceb__> no
[21:49] <Laurenceb__> LiFePO4 was actually very poor below -25C
[21:49] <richardeoin> Ahhh okay
[21:49] <Laurenceb__> when leo tested in his freezer
[21:50] <Laurenceb__> he has a proper HP test thingy
[21:50] <Laurenceb__> ran a load of off the shelf tests, before ordering custom ones from China
[21:50] <richardeoin> a test thing that measures internal resistance etc?
[21:51] <Laurenceb__> and charge/discharge iirc
[21:51] <Laurenceb__> Lithium Sulphur has good performance at <-50C
[21:51] <Laurenceb__> but <<~200cycles
[21:51] <Laurenceb__> so thats pretty useless for Leo type activities
[21:52] <Laurenceb__> also not available off the shelf
[21:52] <richardeoin> but normal lipos do have some capacity at low tempertures right? - just the nominal voltage is more like 2.7V
[21:54] <Laurenceb__> the internal resistance goes through the ceiling below ~ -25C
[21:55] <richardeoin> and lithium plating on the anode I think
[21:56] <Laurenceb__> yeah, it all goes to pot
[21:59] <andew> Laurenceb__ what about sollar cell and super cap and low temperatures?
[22:00] <Laurenceb__> supercap isnt going to last all night
[22:00] <andew> thats true
[22:00] <richardeoin> look forward to meeting up at the conference Laurenceb__ - I'll bring a copy of the board from ubseds9/m0sbu-11 and some pe/pa/tie/evoh if it comes by then
[22:00] <richardeoin> night
[22:01] <Laurenceb__> yeah sounds good
[22:01] <Laurenceb__> cya
[22:02] <Laurenceb__> the only solution I could come up with for << -50C operation and off the shelf / doable parts was longwave IR
[22:02] <Laurenceb__> alu foil collector plates facing up/down and peltier
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[22:03] <Laurenceb__> longwave IR flux at 12.5km is up to 400W/m^2
[22:04] <andew> as far as I know, the batteries are not discharged in the cold they have hi internal resistance. Current spikes could be compensated with a big capacitor.
[22:04] <andew> hmm...
[22:04] <Laurenceb__> thats true
[22:04] <Laurenceb__> but even with Leos cells, they seemed to hit a brick wall at ~ -50C
[22:04] <andew> hm.. maybe you can get some energy from winds
[22:05] <Laurenceb__> lowest temperatures on Leos flights were ~ -65C
[22:05] <Laurenceb__> lithium sulphur can manage that, but state of the art for lithium sulphur is only ~200cycle counts in ideal conditions
[22:07] <Laurenceb__> I should finish off my logwave IR sim code, its probably the most practical way to solve the power problem
[22:08] <Laurenceb__> getting 1mW to charge a supercap and run a sirf in trickle power mode should be possible
[22:11] <andew> Laurenceb__ you plan to build thermoelectric cell?
[22:11] <Laurenceb__> yes
[22:11] <Laurenceb__> this makes the job a lot easier
[22:11] <Laurenceb__> http://eu.mouser.com/new/panasonic/panasonicthermalgraphite/
[22:11] <andew> Thermoelectric effect effiency is about 0.4%
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> That depends enormously on delta-t
[22:13] <Laurenceb__> yes
[22:13] <Laurenceb__> but as i said, 10cm -> ~10^-2m^2
[22:13] <andew> <Laurenceb__> longwave IR flux at 12.5km is up to 400W/m^2
[22:13] <Laurenceb__> so ~4W raw power
[22:13] <andew> from eart to space?
[22:13] <andew> *earth
[22:13] <Laurenceb__> yes
[22:13] <Laurenceb__> no
[22:13] <Laurenceb__> net vertical at 12.5km
[22:14] <Laurenceb__> so two 70µm sheets of that stuff
[22:14] <Laurenceb__> with aluminised mylar and aerogel inbetween
[22:15] <andew> s you mean that thermal flow is horizontal? what is source of IR radiation?
[22:15] <Laurenceb__> the IR comes from the CO2 in the troposphere
[22:15] <andew> sounds interesting :)
[22:15] <andew> ok I understand now
[22:16] <Laurenceb__> in my basic design sim, I had 8cm diameter disk with 70µm graphite film and aerogel ~8mm thick
[22:17] <Laurenceb__> then a peltier inbetween giving ~ 20µW/(W/m^2)
[22:17] <Laurenceb__> so 8mW at 400W/m^2
[22:18] <Laurenceb__> lowest power for a functional pico is probably 1mW if you want to keep the GPS running
[22:18] <Laurenceb__> using sirf < 18km
[22:18] <andew> GPS uses at least 3mW (ublox module with 1hz)
[22:19] <andew> 1Hz update rate
[22:19] <Laurenceb__> erm yeah
[22:19] <Laurenceb__> sirf at 1mW is "undefined update rate"
[22:19] <Laurenceb__> I havent actually tested it, but its supposed ot keep lock if the platform is "handheld dynamics"
[22:20] <Laurenceb__> for "smart"watches and stuff
[22:22] <andew> yeah.. it would probably be possible to survive with 1mW
[22:22] <andew> :)
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[22:23] <Laurenceb__> the logwave IR thingy is pretty sensitive to design parameters
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[22:23] <Laurenceb__> I'd need to do better sim work to be convinced
[22:23] <Laurenceb__> all the parts have to be "matched"
[22:24] <Laurenceb__> basically thermal impedance matching
[22:25] <Laurenceb__> you end up with something like 20C delta T at ~-60C ambient
[22:25] <Laurenceb__> which results in quite high efficiency with the right choice of peltier
[22:31] <andew> a lot of hard work will be required to develop this way of power harvesting
[22:32] <Laurenceb__> indeed
[22:33] <Laurenceb__> it never seems to have been done before by anyone
[22:33] <Laurenceb__> I guess its quite hard without peltier+aerogel+pyrolytic graphite sheet
[22:36] <andew> http://www.madgetech.com/data-loggers/product-applications/shipping-and-storage-applications/cryo-temp.html This is temperature data logger. once I dissasembled this device and there is battery specified to work down to -50°C.
[22:36] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DL4MDW-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL4MDW-11
[22:37] <andew> they say: Records Temperatures as low as -86 °C.
[22:37] <Laurenceb__> nice find
[22:37] <andew> apparently, they solved the problem by using capacitors.
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[22:38] <andew> I mean capacitors + battery
[22:38] <Laurenceb__> ok
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[22:39] <andew> but your idea is much more futuristic :D
[22:40] <gregor_> hi
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[00:00] --- Sat Aug 1 2015