highaltitude.log.20150720

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[07:45] <RealBorg> has anyone tried using a FPV live-cam yet?
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[08:19] <LunarWork> hello
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[10:43] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03K6RPT-12 after 039 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K6RPT-12
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[11:31] <Laurenceb__> ping edmoore
[11:32] <Laurenceb__> have you ever used unscented kalman?
[11:33] <Darkside> i thought he liked particle filters instead
[11:34] <Laurenceb__> hmm good point
[11:34] <Laurenceb__> hmf
[11:35] Action: Laurenceb__ is trying to fit thermal diffusion properties to the response of an object to ambient temperature changes
[11:35] <Laurenceb__> i think ill try unscented kalman, particle will kill my pc
[11:36] <Laurenceb__> each iteration of the filter is ~1k iterations of the ~100M vertex thermal mesh
[11:36] <Laurenceb__> UKF should take ~1day on my workstation
[11:37] <Laurenceb__> particle would be slower than real time :-/
[11:37] <Laurenceb__> but im still unsure if UKF >> EKF in this case
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[11:49] <Laurenceb__> hmm think i have to use an EKF
[11:50] <Laurenceb__> as the thermal model is the nonlinear part, and its decoupled from the kalman state vector, which contains only thermal properties
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[13:39] <edmoore> Laurenceb__: yes
[13:39] <edmoore> Darkside: particle filters are the right tool for some things
[13:39] <edmoore> but not alwayd the right thing
[13:39] <Laurenceb__> hi edmoore
[13:39] <edmoore> i have never used a particle filter in anger at work
[13:39] <edmoore> whereas kalman filters are everywhere in our various things
[13:39] <Laurenceb__> interesting
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[13:39] <Laurenceb__> I'm looking at UKF again now...
[13:40] <edmoore> basically if it's linearish and its distribution is unimodalish, just shoe-horn it into a kalman filter
[13:40] <Laurenceb__> tho atm im writing glue code to interface with the FEA model
[13:40] <Laurenceb__> I'm getting confused by the sigma point propagation in UKF
[13:41] <Laurenceb__> in my case im going to have :
[13:41] <Laurenceb__> state -> FEA model -> observations made from simulation
[13:41] <Laurenceb__> there is no explicit state propagator
[13:42] <Laurenceb__> which is confusing... guess I need to draw some flow diagrams to get my head around it
[13:43] <edmoore> is the FEA model not acting as the state propagation step here?
[13:43] <edmoore> and does the above thing actually have any meausrement noise?
[13:47] <Laurenceb__> hmm
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[13:48] <Laurenceb__> there is a separate "state" in the FEA
[13:49] <Laurenceb__> so the FEA model contains a running state modelling the internal temperature distribution inside the part
[13:50] <Laurenceb__> I guess that could be made part of the kalman state, but then the state vector would become huge
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[13:51] <Laurenceb__> the measurements come from some temperature sensors on the outer surface of the part
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[13:51] <Laurenceb__> and my original plan was for state vector to be just a three vector with bulk thermal properties of the part
[13:53] <Laurenceb__> I guess there is no reason not to have a huge state vector - other than that the matrix bashing would take forever
[13:54] <Laurenceb__> the entire FEA mesh would have to be included in the state vector
[13:59] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03VA2RMG-11 after 0315 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VA2RMG-11
[13:59] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03VE2WMG-11 after 0317 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VE2WMG-11
[14:03] <Laurenceb__> I'm going to try UKF, as I suspect this is going to be highly nonlinear
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[14:18] <Laurenceb__> we herd you like servos http://i.imgur.com/YmMRMPu.png
[14:19] <_charlie> good lord
[14:20] <_charlie> I prefer mudkips but hey :P
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[16:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03N1RCA-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N1RCA-11
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[16:48] <Laurenceb__> help
[16:48] <Laurenceb__> UKF makes my brain explode
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[17:00] <SpeedEvil> http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/187_1003705_americas_dxm.png - Goresat/Trienna/DSCOVR in final orbit. 2K*2K earth image
[17:02] <Laurenceb__> Goresat?
[17:02] <Laurenceb__> did it invent the internets?
[17:03] <SpeedEvil> The argument could be made that Gore did facilitate the internet winning
[17:03] <SpeedEvil> It diddn't have to
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[17:10] <x-f> what's that little green thing on the lower left above the atmosphere?
[17:13] <LazyLeopard> A hot pixel?
[17:13] <LazyLeopard> No. Looks like it covers half a dozen...
[17:14] <bertrik> little green men
[17:14] <x-f> i knew it!
[17:20] Nick change: DrLuke__ -> DrLuke
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[17:42] <SM0ULC> SpeedEvil: any receivable fqs on it?
[17:42] <SpeedEvil> ?
[17:42] <SpeedEvil> It's past the moon
[17:42] <SpeedEvil> I don't know what is required to recieve it, but I suspect it's not going to be a small dish
[17:48] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
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[18:04] <SM0ULC> SpeedEvil: it's equipped with a massive 33 mhz cpu :)
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[18:06] <SM0ULC> SpeedEvil: 5W + 1.3m dish
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[18:43] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03TROUPYS after 032 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=TROUPYS
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[19:41] <SpeedEvil> It's a pity thye couldn't do a bit of a refresh before launch
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[19:51] <SpeedEvil> So - the conclusion of the Falcon 9 launch accident is that it needs more struts.
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[20:03] <mclane_> Good evening, is daveake around?
[20:04] <daveake> nope
[20:05] <mclane_> sad... then I will ask tomorrow
[20:06] <daveake> I'll let him know
[20:08] <cm13g09> LOL
[20:10] <mclane_> ok British humor I guess ;-)
[20:10] <mclane_> here is my question: where can I find the code for the lora gateway? I am looking for examples how to upload to habitat
[20:11] <dbrooke> https://github.com/PiInTheSky/lora-gateway
[20:11] <mclane_> ah thanks
[20:11] <dbrooke> see, any dave can answer 8-)
[20:12] <mclane_> cool
[20:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03JFS3 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=JFS3
[20:13] <daveake> hah :)
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[20:34] <Laurenceb__> hmm i think i have a solution to my thermal diffusion problem
[20:34] <Laurenceb__> only problem is... i need access to this http://www.dwavesys.com/
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[20:50] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
[20:51] <SpeedEvil> :)
[20:52] <SpeedEvil> have you considered making a little model?
[20:53] <Laurenceb__> heh thats another option
[20:53] <Laurenceb__> physical "simulations"
[20:53] <Laurenceb__> unscented kalman seems to be working atm
[20:54] <Laurenceb__> but only running at ~4 times real time
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[20:54] <SpeedEvil> 'due to time constraints, I could not obtain closure on the simulation. An accurate thermal scale model was made from mature cheddar'
[20:56] <Laurenceb__> initialisation is a pita
[20:56] <mclane_> another question for daveake: for which purpose are you using DIO0 / DIO5 in your gateway? - If I understand correctly, DIO0 is indicating "received data available", but I cannot find DIO5
[20:56] <Laurenceb__> as the "pull in range" is quite low even with a UKF
[20:56] <daveake> DIO5 is used in the tracker code to signify a change of mode
[20:57] <daveake> The gateway just does a delay but that will change
[20:59] <mclane_> ok - I do not have the DIOs connected to my pi in my design; so I will modify the code to use the interrupt registers instead
[21:01] <mclane_> or add the missing connections by a wire ;-)
[21:03] <Laurenceb__> http://www.adweek.com/tvspy/files/2013/03/MathLab_WLEX.jpg
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[21:05] <SpeedEvil> Genius
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[21:36] <amell> SA6BSS: thanks for the link, belatedly.
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[21:42] <amell> daveake: this skycademy - looks good. Is it going to be a mass launch or something at the end?
[21:42] <SA6BSS> :)
[21:42] <SM0ULC> evening!
[21:43] <SA6BSS> halloj
[21:45] <Laurenceb__> hmf runtime for my UKF is 10 hours
[21:45] <Laurenceb__> time to invest in a xeon
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> Or a phi
[21:46] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/INTEL-SC31S1P-XEON-PHI-31S1P-1-1GHZ-8GB-320GB-s-GDDR5-57-CORE-COPROCESSOR-1TFLOP-/201281929366?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2edd568096
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[21:47] <Laurenceb__> maybe a hardware FEA model on an FPGA would be useful
[21:48] <Laurenceb__> prob not - prob saner to rewrite in c
[21:48] <Laurenceb__> this could be useful for structural diagnostics, bridges etc
[21:48] <daveake> amell probably 1 demo launch then 4 team launches
[21:48] <Laurenceb__> match external response to environmental temperature to internal structure
[21:49] <daveake> All will be rtty + lora
[21:50] <amell> cool. still cant get that new code into my lora tracker. some kind of memory issue. I need to spend time working out whats up.
[21:50] <amell> wtf, falcon9 failure caused by broken strut!
[21:51] <amell> http://www.engadget.com/2015/07/20/spacex-faulty-strut/#continued
[21:52] <amell> they will make the dragon deploy parachutes in the event of failure - surprised they didnt do that before...
[21:52] <russss> change control
[21:53] <Laurenceb__> i think by strut they mean cylinder clamp
[21:54] <Laurenceb__> for the He pressurant
[21:54] <russss> yeah, interesting
[21:54] <amell> a strut holding a high pressure helium bottle failed
[21:54] <russss> sound like they've been running round the factory trying to destroy as many components as possible
[21:54] <Laurenceb__> so it took off like a shagging torpedo
[21:55] <Laurenceb__> to quote the CUED technician
[21:55] <russss> materials are hard
[21:55] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[21:55] <amell> soft in this case
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[21:56] <Laurenceb__> im shocked by some of the gas cylinder installations i see in hospitals
[21:56] <Laurenceb__> its a wonder nobody has been blown up recently
[21:56] <Laurenceb__> and completely untrained staff moving high pressure cylinders
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[21:57] <russss> do any other launch vehicles have their pressurant tanks inside the propellant tanks?
[21:57] <amell> where did you get that idea from?
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[21:58] <Laurenceb__> russss: aiui saturn5 did
[21:58] <Laurenceb__> ariane 5 uses liquid He
[21:58] <Laurenceb__> soyux uses LN2
[21:58] <amell> I use baked beans
[21:59] <Laurenceb__> shuttle used He tanks inside the orbiter aiui, might be wrong
[21:59] <Laurenceb__> cooling the He makes the system much lighter
[21:59] <Laurenceb__> there seem to be two schools of thought, compressed gas or liquid gas
[21:59] <russss> amell: that's what it was. One of the gaseous helium tanks (at stupid high pressure) popped inside the LOx tank (the one they have the fancy gopro footage from)
[22:00] <Laurenceb__> i guess spacex went with compressed for reusability
[22:00] <Laurenceb__> they can use the compressed gas to spin up turbopumps
[22:00] <Laurenceb__> for relight
[22:00] <russss> well, that's what they think it was. It strikes me as a slightly tenuous conclusion but I guess they exhausted all the other options
[22:00] <amell> russs: whats your source for this?
[22:00] <Laurenceb__> most launchers seem to go with liquid gas, as its lighter
[22:00] <russss> oh right, this is a better article http://spacenews.com/falcon-9-failure-linked-to-upper-stage-tank-strut/
[22:00] <russss> I didn't listen to the call
[22:00] <amell> thanks, that helps
[22:01] <russss> and I know they have He tanks inside the LOx tank
[22:01] <Laurenceb__> falcon9 is at ~50psi or something
[22:01] <Laurenceb__> so that takes a lot of gas
[22:01] <russss> I think it makes the structural stuff a lot simpler because they can use a shared bulkhead
[22:02] <amell> they actually tested thousands of these struts and found a few that failed
[22:02] <Laurenceb__> huh
[22:02] <Laurenceb__> the He is inside the LOX to keep it cool
[22:02] <amell> makes me wonder how they got to that conclusion
[22:03] <amell> mind, i do remember them saying shortly after it happened, that the tank pressure shot up suddenly.
[22:03] <Laurenceb__> yeah they saw that in telemetry
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[23:29] <russss> oh, buoyancy http://spaceflightnow.com/2015/07/20/support-strut-probable-cause-of-falcon-9-failure/
[23:29] <russss> The buoyancy increases proprotionate to the g-loading. At approximately 3.2 Gs, this strut holding down one of the helium bottles appears to have snapped, and as a result, releasing a lot of helium into the upper stage oxygen tank and causing an overpressure event quite quickly.
[23:30] <russss> I like the classic Elon understatement of "quite quickly"
[23:31] <russss> Weve got microphones, technically accelerometers, at various points on the upper stage, and by looking at the exact timing of high-frequency events on the stage, we can, by acoustic triangulation, identify the location where the snap occurred or the breakage occurred via sound.
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[23:37] <adamgreig> nice
[23:37] <adamgreig> well, it's an explanation at least
[23:37] <adamgreig> I enjoy that they're now swapping supplier for the struts
[23:38] <russss> sounds like they have a pretty solid hypothesis actually
[23:39] <adamgreig> it's like the balloon on a bus accelerating forward
[23:39] <russss> yeah
[23:44] <adamgreig> nice article
[23:44] <adamgreig> space, eh
[23:44] <adamgreig> I feel a bit better spending the afternoon stressing about power distribution in my rocket's avionics now :p
[23:45] <russss> what's odd is that that they said they've flown "thousands" of those struts, so it sounds like they were statistically likely to get a failed one
[23:45] <russss> I guess they use them in quite a few places
[23:45] <adamgreig> yea
[23:45] <adamgreig> it says they've now tested thousands on the ground to failure (I assume) and still only a few failed early
[23:45] <adamgreig> obviously not much good to have any fail early
[23:46] <russss> I'm just imagining them running around the factory picking up all the struts and destructively testing them
[23:46] <adamgreig> given what I hear of space x's normal work hours I dread to think what the last month's been like
[23:47] <russss> I doubt Elon's got any sleep at all
[23:47] <russss> with that and the Tesla announcement on Friday
[23:47] <adamgreig> I don't think he gets any sleep anyway :P
[23:47] <russss> he's probably found away around that
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[00:00] --- Tue Jul 21 2015