highaltitude.log.20150708

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[05:08] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CALLSIGN123_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CALLSIGN123_chase
[05:09] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DJ1OF_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DJ1OF_chase
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[05:20] <qyx_> what are those new pvc windows made of? they effectively cause my 4G usb dongle unusable
[05:20] <qyx_> i need to have the window opened with the dongle hanging outside
[05:36] <lz1dev> qyx_: you have to get the 4G ready ones
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[08:27] <ibanezmatt13> morning
[08:32] <fsphil> morn
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[08:33] <daveake> mrn
[08:34] <ibanezmatt13> You know when you have a set of IO pins on an AVR, so like PORTD, does it have 8 pins because 8 bits or a byte is a convenient way to do it?
[08:34] <fsphil> easier to engineer probably
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[08:36] <ibanezmatt13> right, well I'm trying to understand bitwise operators, and I've seen ways of toggling a specific pin with them which involves shifting left that number of times, ANDing with 0x80 etc, but surely that's affecting the state of the other pins
[08:36] <Vaizki> ibanezmatt13, the AVR (like most MCUs I think) have an area of memory where all the peripherals are "mapped".. it's not really memory but a virtualized array of bits which get intercepted for reads and writes
[08:36] <ibanezmatt13> right
[08:37] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[08:37] <Vaizki> ok so what's the confusion with bitwise ops?
[08:37] <ibanezmatt13> I don't think I'm totally confused just yet. I'll see if I can find an example of what I mean
[08:37] <Vaizki> if you take a random number X and do X = X & 0x80 .. it means the highest bit will become 1 and all others are untouched
[08:37] <Vaizki> if it already was 1 it's not changed
[08:38] <daveake> Those operations will be reading the current 8 bits then manipulating one (usually) of them
[08:38] <ibanezmatt13> ok I have this here: http://gyazo.com/bce48e4ae5be37b461deba10d63f3d19
[08:38] <daveake> You know what ^= does ?
[08:38] <ibanezmatt13> it's XOR
[08:38] <daveake> there you are then
[08:38] <ibanezmatt13> I think
[08:39] <Vaizki> ok so DDRB |= (1 << 0) is the same as DDRB = DDRB | 0x01
[08:39] <Vaizki> take the value of DDRB, set the lowest bit to 1, store back in DDRB
[08:39] <ibanezmatt13> oh that's what that does
[08:39] <fsphil> yea it's three operations
[08:39] <fsphil> though the cpu may optimise it
[08:40] <Vaizki> (1 << x) is just a notation to easily define a constant where only bit x is set
[08:40] <fsphil> if you didn't care for the other bits you could just write directly, DDRB = (1 << 0)
[08:40] <fsphil> that may run quicker
[08:40] <Vaizki> so (1 << 7) = 0x80
[08:40] <fsphil> yep
[08:41] <ibanezmatt13> Ah I see. Now when you shift to the left, do the bits at the far right gradually become zero?
[08:41] <fsphil> bits are fun
[08:41] <Vaizki> ibanezmatt13, yes
[08:41] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[08:41] <fsphil> bit shifting in C fills in the gaps with zero
[08:41] <Vaizki> when you shift left or right, bits drop off one end and zeros come in on the other end
[08:41] <fsphil> and the bit shifted off the end just disappears into the void
[08:41] <daveake> though in asm it may go into the carry bit
[08:42] <fsphil> some CPUs have a rotate command, so that the empty bit is filled with what the end bit had
[08:42] <Vaizki> or roll
[08:42] Nick change: lz1dev_ -> lz1dev
[08:42] <ibanezmatt13> does the parity bit ever come into things, is that just in signed integers?
[08:42] <Vaizki> anyway, off to the doctors&
[08:42] <daveake> Somewhere there's a parallel universe gradually filling up with all those lost 1s and 0s
[08:42] <fsphil> mmm
[08:42] <fsphil> information is never lost, so they must be going somewhere :)
[08:43] <fsphil> parity is something else
[08:43] <lz1dev> they dissipate as heat
[08:44] <ibanezmatt13> I'm attempting to re-write my flight code from arduino in C :P
[08:45] <fsphil> the one true language
[08:45] <daveake> that's fighting talk
[08:45] <ibanezmatt13> So I guess a good place to start may be to redo the digitalWrite() function myself
[08:45] <daveake> yup
[08:45] <fsphil> yea
[08:46] <fsphil> you can make a neat little macro out of it
[08:46] <ibanezmatt13> I've seen macros mentioned but not looked into
[08:47] <fsphil> yea leave that for later. they're handy. but get it working first
[08:47] <ibanezmatt13> yep. Been looking around for a decent compiler/IDE for C. GCC is popular, but it doesn't have a nice environment to write it in does it?
[08:48] <fsphil> I personally just use vim to edit the files, make to build them
[08:49] <fsphil> gcc is likely the compiler no matter what IDE/editor you use
[08:49] <ibanezmatt13> yea, I suppose firing up my linux machine will be better than windows
[08:51] <dbrooke> I've not used it but if you want an IDE then Eclipse is probably what you want to look at
[08:52] <dbrooke> http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-get-started-with-Eclipse-and-AVR/ may help
[08:52] <ibanezmatt13> thanks, I've tried Eclipse before and I think it was ok actually
[08:53] <Vaizki> Do you use pwm?
[08:53] <dbrooke> there seem to be a number of articles if you search for "eclipse avr"
[08:53] <ibanezmatt13> I've tried it before with motors and things I think Vaizki
[08:54] <ibanezmatt13> but it's something I could do with reading into to understand it properly
[08:54] <dbrooke> but I'm a vi/make user like fsphil
[08:54] <ibanezmatt13> so make compiles it, and then is it like "./program.c"
[08:54] <Vaizki> Pwm requires good understanding of avr timers
[08:54] <fsphil> make calls gcc on each .c file, producing a .o file
[08:55] <Vaizki> So if you need pwm prepare to dig in deep
[08:55] <ibanezmatt13> I'm reading some stuff by that abcminiuser guy on avr timers :)
[08:55] <ibanezmatt13> fsphil, you run the .o file?
[08:56] <dbrooke> no
[08:56] <dbrooke> make usually also links it
[08:56] <dbrooke> so you'd run ./program
[08:56] <ibanezmatt13> oh ok
[08:57] <fsphil> yea the .o files are object files
[08:57] <fsphil> they contain compiled code but can't be run directly
[08:57] <dbrooke> linking combines the .o files with the libraries to produce the executable
[08:57] <ibanezmatt13> every time I try make somefile.c it says "nothing to be done"
[08:58] <fsphil> make by itself doesn't do anything, it just runs what's in the Makefile
[08:58] <fsphil> you need to write the Makefile yourself, or copy someone elses
[08:58] <ibanezmatt13> ah
[08:59] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[08:59] <daveake> the makefile contains rules, like "to make thing.o you need to run gcc on thing.c"
[08:59] <daveake> you have rules for the .o files and the final executable
[08:59] <daveake> then it checks which need to be run (by comparing timestamps)
[09:00] <daveake> so a large project with many source code files might only need 1 compilcation and 1 link
[09:00] <daveake> (if you've only changed 1 file)
[09:00] <ibanezmatt13> ah I see, I'll have a look at a basic one
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[09:10] <fsphil> yea annoying when you change a .h file in dl-fldigi, as the makefile has it recompile the whole lot
[09:13] <dbrooke> this one (originally from dave) is fairly simple https://github.com/dbrooke/UKHASNetPiGateway/blob/master/makefile
[09:15] <ibanezmatt13> yeah at the moment I'm just having something like "gcc -o project project.c someotherthing.c another.c onemore.h" though I'm only using one file at the mo
[09:16] <fsphil> you don't need the .h file on that list
[09:16] <fsphil> the #include in the .c files will bring it in for you
[09:16] <ibanezmatt13> oh right
[09:17] <fsphil> the C pre-processor replaces the #include line with the contents of the included file
[09:18] <ibanezmatt13> ah, nice, makes sense really
[09:19] <fsphil> yea it's something I didn't get when I first started C. the pre-processor runs first, then the compiler
[09:19] <fsphil> the compiler never sees #include or #define
[09:19] <dbrooke> in that makefile I referenced you can see .h files mentioned as dependencies, so if you change a .h it will rebuild any target which depends on it
[09:20] <ibanezmatt13> ah ok
[09:20] <dbrooke> so the dependencies are the .c file itself and any .h which it includes
[09:21] <dbrooke> the top rule is the linking, so depends on the .o files created by the other 2 rules
[09:22] <ibanezmatt13> I'm still a little unsure about how you can have something like DDRB and shifting bits in it to the left isn't affecting the other pins in it... Started writing out a load of bytes and seeing why it works :P
[09:22] <fsphil> you are not shifting the bits in the register DDRB
[09:23] <fsphil> if you looked at the machine code, it loads the contents of DDRB into a register (cpu variable I suppose)
[09:23] <fsphil> it XOR's it with your shifted value (1 << ?)
[09:23] <fsphil> then writes that back to DDRB
[09:24] <ibanezmatt13> Ahh, that makes sense. It's the XOR bit which ensures the other pins keep the same state
[09:24] <eroomde> no
[09:24] <eroomde> not quite
[09:24] <eroomde> OR keeps the other bits in the same state
[09:25] <eroomde> where you're or-ing with a zero then the state of the target bit remains the same
[09:25] <eroomde> when you're or-ing with a 1 then the state of the target bit is set to 1
[09:25] <Laurenceb> wow PS-46 reception
[09:26] <ibanezmatt13> ah yes I was mixing up the setting of the pin mode to the toggling of it later
[09:26] <ibanezmatt13> XOR would change the state of the pin you want each time, OR just makes it a one always?
[09:27] <eroomde> assuming you are or-ing in xoring with 1 in the above case, yes
[09:27] <eroomde> or-ing and xor-ing*
[09:28] <eroomde> or-1 is set, xor-1 is toggle
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[09:29] <ibanezmatt13_> sorry, the usual internet failure occured
[09:29] <eroomde> 'set' is usually used as short hand for 'set to 1'. so if a datasheet says 'set bit six of register POOBUM' then that mean set it to 1, unless they say explicitly otherwise
[09:29] <fsphil> http://mrbeattysclass.weebly.com/uploads/2/1/5/1/21518462/2479870_orig.gif
[09:29] <fsphil> truth tables are handy for this
[09:29] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13_: icumi
[09:29] <eroomde> 09:27:49 eroomde | assuming you are or-ing in xoring with 1 in the above case, yes  Darkside
[09:29] <eroomde> 09:27:57 eroomde | or-ing and xor-ing*  daveake
[09:29] <eroomde> 09:28:07 eroomde | or-1 is set, xor-1 is toggle
[09:29] <eroomde> oh sorry it's copied the nick list from the right hand side
[09:29] <Darkside> lol
[09:29] <ibanezmatt13_> :)
[09:30] <Darkside> thanks for the highlight
[09:30] <fsphil> the flaw with console irc clients :)
[09:30] <Darkside> mine doesnt show a nick list
[09:30] <ibanezmatt13_> Think I've got it now, thanks
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[09:32] <fsphil> xor is handy
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[09:34] <eroomde> i do think that programming a cortex m0 part in asm would be an excellent 1st or 2nd tutorial for microcontrollers
[09:35] <eroomde> a simple hab tracker from scratch in asm
[09:35] <eroomde> i've said this lots, I know
[09:35] <eroomde> should pu up or shut up
[09:35] <fsphil> parsing gps strings in assembly would be fun
[09:35] <Laurenceb> thumb2 asm is fun
[09:36] <Laurenceb> pity cortex-m7 is going to be very fun to write asm for
[09:36] <fsphil> "fun"?
[09:36] <Laurenceb> heh
[09:36] <eroomde> fsphil: i reckon you'd just switch to ubx and set the messages you want asap
[09:36] <eroomde> in binary
[09:37] <fsphil> yea just dump them out to the serial port
[09:37] <Laurenceb> this in asm https://github.com/Laurenceb/STM32_Launcher/blob/master/Ublox/ubx.c
[09:37] <fsphil> getting the serial port working and in the correct mode could be the most difficult bits
[09:38] <zyp> eroomde, I agree that learning asm is helpful for understanding what happens underneath C, but I'm not sure I agree that it's best to start there
[09:38] <Vaizki> C is close enough to asm for me
[09:38] <zyp> C is very far from asm when you don't know how it relates
[09:38] <Laurenceb> C is very far from asm
[09:38] <Laurenceb> :P
[09:39] <dbrooke> I just copied 'strings' from nmea to the ukhasnet string (and pre-pended a '-' if necessary) in my PIC asm tracker code
[09:39] <Vaizki> I know my asm don't worry. I just feel C gives me enough direct control to not bother with asm
[09:40] <eroomde> zyp: hence hedging my bets with 1st or 2nd course
[09:41] <fsphil> just wait until you hit a compiler bug. useful to know assembly then
[09:41] <eroomde> i don't question the desire for people to whack together something quickly with an arduino to get their curvature-of-the-earth pics
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[09:41] <eroomde> but i think then they'd benefit from actually learning how a micro works, which arduino doesn't teach you, and which matt is learning now
[09:41] <eroomde> and yeah familiarity with asm is super useful for debugging boviosuly
[09:41] <eroomde> and reverse engineering
[09:42] Nick change: pjm_ -> pjm
[09:42] <ibanezmatt13_> can I learn how the micro works enough just using C do you think?
[09:42] <ibanezmatt13_> Had a look at asm last night
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[09:42] <ibanezmatt13_> Not sure I like it yet :P
[09:43] <Vaizki> Yea but asm is different ballgame. I used to do fixed point matrix math for a 3D rendering library in the 90s, it's not a light undertaking to do everything in asm
[09:43] <eroomde> yeah you can learn it in C
[09:43] <Vaizki> Possibilities to shoot yourself in the foot are endless
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[09:43] <ibanezmatt13_> I'll stick with C for now then. Writing my own digitalWrite() and pinMode() is a good start
[09:43] <Vaizki> Not sure if kids today have the stamina;)
[09:44] <ibanezmatt13_> bbl, the grandmother has arrived
[09:44] <Vaizki> And you can inline asm from Gcc if you really want
[09:45] <fsphil> that's quite ackward
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[09:47] <Laurenceb> its my preferred way
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[09:47] <Laurenceb> write DSP stuff in asm and everything else in c
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[09:48] <Vaizki> or just link asm modules in
[09:49] <dbrooke> for your entertainment, not for production use 8-), I've just uploaded to https://github.com/dbrooke/ukhas-pic-tracker
[09:50] <dbrooke> doesn't do flight mode or NMEA CRC validation
[09:51] <eroomde> look
[09:51] <eroomde> this is great
[09:52] <Laurenceb> eeek pic asm
[09:52] <eroomde> and sharing is great
[09:52] <eroomde> but please
[09:52] <eroomde> include a Trigger Warning
[09:52] <Laurenceb> lol Trigger Warnings
[09:52] <eroomde> it's been several years since i've had to look at Bank switching and i was just beginning to recover
[09:52] <eroomde> and this kind of thing gives me a massive relapse
[09:52] <eroomde> i'll have hallucinations all day now
[09:52] <fsphil> lol
[09:53] <fsphil> bank switching is evil
[09:54] <dbrooke> well, I was keeping it hidden until you mentioned asm just now, sorry for your relapse
[09:54] <fsphil> when I did some PIC stuff I just pretended I had less memory than there was
[09:54] <dbrooke> Ithink I've used it all in that code
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[09:56] <fsphil> I've heard the newer PICs don't have banks
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[09:58] <dbrooke> I had a bit of 'fun' with the bankswitching initially
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[10:01] <dbrooke> other thing which caught me out on that one is port reads aren't from latches for output pins, so read-modify-write doesn't work
[10:01] <fsphil> the register is write-only?
[10:01] <dbrooke> luckily I only needed one pin on each port as I had no memory left for shadow copies
[10:02] <dbrooke> the latch is write-only, it reads the pins, even for output, so if it's loaded can read different to what you wrote
[10:03] <fsphil> ah
[10:03] <fsphil> yea the avr has separate registers for that
[10:04] <dbrooke> again, other variants do support read from latches, but it caught me out when trying to use multiple LEDs on same port for debug
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[10:19] <Vaizki> ok that's enough of banks and latches.. we have ARM now and nice flat memory mapped peripherals and bit banding and what not. life is good :)
[10:19] <ibanezmatt13_> why in C do you have int main(void) and then return some integer - can't you just do a void main ?
[10:20] <ibanezmatt13_> I'm not interested in returning anything really
[10:20] <Vaizki> not a 100% sure but in theory you should return 0 for a clean exit
[10:21] <craag> It's in the C standard iirc
[10:21] <murb> ibanezmatt13_: what you can get away with, and what is defined are two different things.
[10:21] <Vaizki> I think it's one of those bits of the standard where an API got only one side of actually implemented
[10:21] <dbrooke> on unixy systems you can check the return code from e.g. a shell script which called the program
[10:21] <craag> that it should be int
[10:21] <murb> ibanezmatt13_: and we hates our undefined behaviour, because bees!
[10:21] <Vaizki> craag, at least in c++ it is
[10:21] <craag> Vaizki: C99 too it looks like
[10:21] <ibanezmatt13_> ok, I'll just leave it as it is then
[10:22] <Vaizki> it should be int main() or int main(int argc, char **argv)
[10:22] <ibanezmatt13_> not int main(void) ?
[10:22] <Vaizki> ok if you are doing MCU stuff right :D
[10:22] <Vaizki> already forgot
[10:22] <craag> () means (void)
[10:22] <dbrooke> just return (or exit) 0 if you're not interested in the value
[10:22] <craag> I usually write (void) as it's more explicit
[10:23] <Vaizki> I don't think a MCU main() should ever return or exit..
[10:23] <ibanezmatt13_> yeah, so just means you're not passing any variables in
[10:23] <eroomde> there is a freestanding flag for gcc
[10:23] <eroomde> -ffreestanding
[10:23] <ibanezmatt13_> what does that do
[10:23] <fsphil> bla() means any number of arguments
[10:23] <eroomde> that lets gcc know that it's not compiling something to run on an OS and so it's not expecting to return anything from main
[10:23] <fsphil> bla(void) means none ever
[10:24] <craag> ah TIL fsphil
[10:24] <eroomde> so you're right to think that 'void main(void)' makes more sense ibanezmatt13_
[10:24] <eroomde> it does
[10:24] <craag> thanks :)
[10:24] <ibanezmatt13_> so that's alright for MCU stuff then?
[10:24] <eroomde> in the context of a bare-metal system
[10:25] <eroomde> yes
[10:25] <ibanezmatt13_> ok
[10:25] <fsphil> it still might complain
[10:25] <fsphil> because tradition
[10:25] <Vaizki> I think freestanding implies a bunch of other stuff
[10:25] <eroomde> but you'll have to convince gcc that you know what you're doing by adding that flag i mentioned when you compile
[10:25] <ibanezmatt13_> right, I'll note that for later
[10:26] <fsphil> avr-gcc should probably have that flag set by default, if it doesn't already
[10:27] <ibanezmatt13_> do you actually write the flag as -ffreestanding, if needed?
[10:28] <Vaizki> well you never return from main() so what does it matter :)
[10:28] <eroomde> saves a byte :)
[10:28] <Vaizki> muhu
[10:28] <eroomde> unless gcc optimises it out
[10:28] <fsphil> interesting experiment for someone
[10:28] <Vaizki> it doesn't save a byte
[10:29] <Vaizki> a func returning an integer just sets a register on return?
[10:29] <craag> so should I be using -ffreestanding for stm32 stuff? I notice it also doesn't try to use builtin functions or stuff
[10:29] <eroomde> yeah you're right
[10:29] <Vaizki> yea you lose builtins like memcpy() with freestanding
[10:29] <fsphil> it should store the value in flash though
[10:30] <ibanezmatt13_> You know when you have something like PORTB = 00100110, which end is which pin? So, is the far right PB0 or PB7?
[10:30] <ibanezmatt13_> I read something about it storing stuff from right to left
[10:31] <Vaizki> ibanezmatt13_, bit 0 is the rightmost
[10:31] <ibanezmatt13_> ok thanks, thought so. I think it writes stuff to memory backwards?
[10:31] <Vaizki> just like in a number 4325687 the 7 is the least significant digit
[10:32] <Vaizki> so there is a most significant and least significant bit (MSB and LSB)
[10:32] <ibanezmatt13_> So LSB -> MSB, is the way it's stored
[10:33] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[10:33] <Vaizki> I'm not following this train of thought? :)
[10:33] <ibanezmatt13_> Yeah I might be talking rubbish :P
[10:34] <dbrooke> eroomde: better? 8-) https://github.com/dbrooke/ukhas-pic-tracker/blob/master/README.md
[10:34] <fsphil> hah
[10:34] <Vaizki> may contain traces of the 90's
[10:36] <craag> arm-none-eabi-size comes out identical for with/without freestanding
[10:37] <dbrooke> Vaizki: before that I probably last wrote assembler (ASM51) in the 80's for AMPS/TACS cellular
[10:40] <eroomde> dbrooke: lovely :)
[10:40] <dbrooke> glad you appear to be still functioning despite the earlier trauma
[10:41] <fsphil> https://greatscottgadgets.com/sdr/ -- interesting intro talks to sdr/radio
[10:43] <ibanezmatt13_> I'm trying to print the value of a char that's like 01101100. So I thought, I'll have a for loop, shift by 1 each time, AND it with a 0 say to determine if a 1 or 0, but then I'm not sure how to print it.
[10:43] <ibanezmatt13_> There's a very similar way to do it here, but I'm not sure why the double NOT !! http://gyazo.com/f5f5c34aa10012edfec3665080473278
[10:44] <fsphil> and'ing with a 0 will just give you 0
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[10:44] <Laurenceb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tX-5WamTFYg
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[10:44] <ibanezmatt13_> oh yea
[10:44] <ibanezmatt13_> sorry, and with a 10000000
[10:45] <ibanezmatt13_> and shift so that the bit you're testing is MSB
[10:45] <ibanezmatt13_> so if it's a 1, it'll be a 1, if it's a 0 it'll be a 0
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[10:45] <ibanezmatt13_> but not sure why the !!
[10:46] <fsphil> that's an ackward way of doing it
[10:46] <ibanezmatt13_> do you need to sort of, invert it, then invert it again? Surely that does nothing
[10:46] <fsphil> you could just do if(value & 0x80) print("1"); else print("0");
[10:46] <fsphil> the value & 0x80 will return 0x80 if the MSB is a 1
[10:46] <dbrooke> its testing the high bit and the !! converts to boolean so it becomes 1 or 0 rather that 0x80 or 0x00
[10:47] <ibanezmatt13_> oh I see
[10:48] <fsphil> actually that's not that ackward
[10:48] <ibanezmatt13_> no I think I get that now. I didn't realise it was coming back as 0x00 and 0x80
[10:48] <fsphil> yea, 11111111 AND 10000000 = 10000000
[10:49] <fsphil> AND works on each bit, doesn't change where they are in the byte
[10:49] <fsphil> you could also shift your value right so the bit you're interested in is the LSB
[10:49] <ibanezmatt13_> yeah to make sense of it I write one underneath the other on paper, and do it by column
[10:49] <ibanezmatt13_> yeah, and then, not sure what it is in HEX, but you'd AND with 0000001?
[10:50] <Vaizki> just print out in hex and learn to read them quick.. :)
[10:50] <Vaizki> you'll get the hang of it fast..
[10:50] <ibanezmatt13_> probably not a bad idea
[10:50] <fsphil> yea hex > bin is quite dooable in your head
[10:50] <fsphil> only 16 values to remember
[10:50] <Vaizki> like 0x97 = 1001 0101
[10:51] <Vaizki> oops :D
[10:51] <daveake> haha
[10:51] <ibanezmatt13_> do you work it out somehow or just remember each value?
[10:51] <Vaizki> at least I spotted it ;)
[10:51] <daveake> :)
[10:51] <daveake> You soon remember
[10:51] <dbrooke> ibanezmatt13_: it becomes instinctive
[10:51] <Vaizki> well you work with nibbles, half bytes or 4 bits at a time
[10:52] <ibanezmatt13_> yeah I suppose it does
[10:52] <ibanezmatt13_> I bet printf can print the binary representation of char, but I fancy doing it manually
[10:53] <Vaizki> it can't
[10:53] <fsphil> not in standard C anyway
[10:53] <ibanezmatt13_> nvm then :)
[10:53] <dbrooke> after a while you just know the patterns but initially just weight the bits 8421 and add it up
[10:53] <daveake> <WhenIWereALad> on my first small computer I had toggle switches for address/data, and remembered the op codes in hex, so soon got the hang of conversion </old_git>
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[10:53] <ibanezmatt13_> nice
[10:54] <daveake> Just gorw more fingers; that helps
[10:54] <daveake> grow
[10:54] <ibanezmatt13_> yeah, another 6
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[10:54] <Vaizki> there's always toes
[10:54] <Vaizki> that's why computer scientists wear sandals in the lab
[10:54] <fsphil> ah that's what I've been doing wrong all these years
[10:55] <ibanezmatt13_> lol
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[10:56] <ibanezmatt13_> I wonder if it'd be worth messing with pointers now... I could have a function write each bit as a character somewhere one after the other, then I can find out what's been put where the pointer points to
[10:57] <fsphil> mmm, a little strbits() function
[10:58] <Vaizki> the registers are often bytes with different data rolled into one register.. and you might not care about all the bits.. so you can just print out a part of the bits in hex like for example printf("%x", (PORTB & 0x06) >> 2) to print out bits 1 & 2 from PORTB
[10:59] <Vaizki> argh I messed up again
[10:59] <Vaizki> >> 1 ... not 2.. :)
[10:59] <Vaizki> I am too old to code!
[10:59] <fsphil> never!
[10:59] <Vaizki> to code without reading what I just typed then
[10:59] <ibanezmatt13_> wonder if you could do something like that to print the whole register out, like the whole 8 bits
[10:59] <fsphil> maybe!
[11:00] <Vaizki> wut? just printf("%02x", PORTB) and "see" it from the nibbles :)
[11:01] <Vaizki> ok so if you don't have the arduino bloatlibs in the project not sure if you even have printf
[11:01] <ibanezmatt13_> hmm. Nah I'll do the whole thing myself, pointers are fun
[11:01] <mattbrejza> printf is in the avr c libraries so you do :)
[11:01] <fsphil> just dont' have the functions to write to the serial port
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[11:02] <fsphil> the hardware is well documented in the datasheet though
[11:02] <mattbrejza> well you can 'redirect' printf to the serial port quite easily
[11:02] <Vaizki> pointers are fun just like chainsaws
[11:02] <ibanezmatt13_> ah yeah, I have to find a bit of memory myself before I use the pointer haven't I
[11:02] <fsphil> it's all oooh and aaahs, then later it's all screaming and pointers to functions
[11:02] <ibanezmatt13_> Unless I initialise a variable then get the address from that
[11:03] <Vaizki> variables are pointers to memory so...
[11:03] <Vaizki> ok that was a bit wrong
[11:03] <Vaizki> see, too old.. but not obsolete
[11:03] <daveake> C is full of gotchas
[11:04] <daveake> e.g. void gotcha(void) ...
[11:04] <daveake> ... then gotcha;
[11:04] <ibanezmatt13_> aren't variables the actual data, and then you can make a pointer to that variable?
[11:04] <Vaizki> ibanezmatt13_, if you want memory for a string of 8 characters (your bits), just do a char[9] variable and point inside it
[11:05] <fsphil> pointers are variables too
[11:05] <Vaizki> you need one extra for a trailing null byte
[11:05] <ibanezmatt13_> right yeah, doesn't sound too bad
[11:05] <fsphil> they just contain a memory location
[11:05] <ibanezmatt13_> so where does the data being stored go?
[11:06] <Vaizki> depending on the variable type and compiler optimization your variable might be in memory or it might just live in a cpu register
[11:06] <Vaizki> but if you do a char[] you are allocating memory and the variable just points to that memory
[11:07] <ibanezmatt13_> ah right
[11:08] <ibanezmatt13_> "The 5 minute guide to C pointers"...
[11:08] <Vaizki> or int[] for that matter, it's just a way for the compiler to allocate the rigth amount and to spout invectives if you mix up types
[11:08] <ibanezmatt13_> ah nice, right I'll crack on
[11:08] <Vaizki> with AVR you have to understand that your memory is quite limited though. and you have multiple types of memory.
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[11:11] <Vaizki> and no, there are no checks that will catch you using up too much memory so that your stack runs into the heap or something...
[11:11] <eroomde> that's worth empahsising
[11:11] <Vaizki> except your mcu just locks up or goes all haywire
[11:11] <eroomde> emphasising*
[11:11] <eroomde> ibanezmatt13_:
[11:11] <ibanezmatt13_> yeah I can mess something up
[11:12] <eroomde> C does exactly what you tell it
[11:12] <eroomde> you can easily tell it to shoot you in the foot without realising
[11:12] <eroomde> and it'll do that
[11:12] <ibanezmatt13_> right. Especially when I'm putting in my own locations for pointers I guess
[11:13] <ibanezmatt13_> overflow into something important
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[11:13] <Vaizki> if you are using avr and avr-libc I think best is to avoid using dynamic allocation with malloc() and free()
[11:14] <Vaizki> allocate what you need globally in the beginning (variable declarations etc) and then use local variables only which come off the stack
[11:14] <Vaizki> if you malloc() and free() you have a big risk of fragmenting the heap
[11:15] <Vaizki> not sure if I'm making any sense :)
[11:15] <ibanezmatt13_> probably to somebody, but not quite to me
[11:15] <ibanezmatt13_> :)
[11:15] <ibanezmatt13_> what is the stack?
[11:15] <fsphil> area of memory the cpu can push/pull values to for temporary storage
[11:16] <Vaizki> when you call a function for example and the func has local variables, the stack pointer moves up and those local variables live in that space
[11:16] <fsphil> last in is the first out
[11:16] <ibanezmatt13_> right ok, noted
[11:16] <Vaizki> when you exit the func, the stack pointer is popped back to its earlier position
[11:16] <fsphil> it might store the memory location of where to jump back to after a function for example
[11:16] <Vaizki> so those local variables lose their storage as they should
[11:17] <fsphil> it's why a function can't call itself too many times
[11:17] <fsphil> would run out of stack space
[11:17] <ibanezmatt13_> ah I see, because it keeps needing more space each time it redefines its local variables?
[11:18] <Vaizki> well creates a new instance of local variables
[11:18] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HB9FDK-11 after 035 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HB9FDK-11
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[11:18] <ibanezmatt13_> right yeah
[11:18] <ibanezmatt13_> so global variables don't exist in this stack then
[11:18] <Vaizki> no, they are in the other end of memory
[11:19] <Vaizki> and right next to them are dynamically malloc() and free()d areas
[11:19] <Vaizki> which grow towards the stack
[11:19] <ibanezmatt13_> is one more at risk than the other in terms of knackering something?
[11:19] <Vaizki> and the stack grows towards the global vars + malloc() areas
[11:19] <Vaizki> if they collide, you're screwed :)
[11:19] <ibanezmatt13_> ahh
[11:20] <ibanezmatt13_> btw does dividing by zero on a mcu actually make the chip explode or is that a stupid myth I've read somewhere? :P
[11:20] <Vaizki> disclaimer, this is just one way of using memory.. it depends on the compiler, libc etc but I think this is accurate for avr-gcc and avr-libc
[11:20] <Vaizki> :D
[11:20] <Vaizki> it results in a singularity that swallows your chip and most of the fish
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[11:21] <ibanezmatt13_> best steer clear of that then...
[11:21] <Vaizki> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_zero#In_computer_arithmetic
[11:22] <Vaizki> I don't think AVRs even have a DIV instruction though
[11:22] <ibanezmatt13_> "On September 21, 1997, a division by zero error on board the USS Yorktown (CG-48) Remote Data Base Manager brought down all the machines on the network, causing the ship's propulsion system to fail"
[11:22] <ibanezmatt13_> ooops
[11:22] <Vaizki> if they did, it would probably trigger an interrupt
[11:23] <russss> Vaizki: they only have integer division iirc, as it's RISC
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[11:23] <Vaizki> hmm could be. I thought they didn't even have integer division and it's clobbered up by GCC
[11:23] <russss> perhaps
[11:24] <fsphil> definitly has a multiplier
[11:24] <Vaizki> yea well everyone has mul :)
[11:24] <fsphil> 6502 didn't :)
[11:24] <Vaizki> today
[11:24] <Vaizki> today!
[11:24] <fsphil> hah
[11:25] <russss> but generally floating point division by zero results in a floating point exception (how that gets raised is generally OS-dependent). Integer division is undefined in C, so just don't.
[11:25] <russss> integer division by zero*
[11:26] <Vaizki> ibanezmatt13_, oh yeah and you do not need floating point numbers :)
[11:26] <ibanezmatt13_> cool
[11:26] <Vaizki> well you might be tempted to use them but I would avoid them
[11:26] <russss> floating point arithmetic is severely overrated
[11:26] <Vaizki> indeed
[11:27] <Vaizki> especially on 8 bit micros with no FPU
[11:27] <Vaizki> :D
[11:29] <Vaizki> I think if you do 123456/1024 on AVR it's like 6 instructions.. and if you do 123456/1000 it's more like 600 instructions
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[11:30] <Vaizki> ibanezmatt13_, can you see the bottom of the deep end already after jumping off the Arduino boat? :)
[11:31] <ibanezmatt13_> indeed :P
[11:32] <ibanezmatt13_> it'll be worth it
[11:32] <Vaizki> of course you are fine without all this under the hood stuff and finesse but it will pop up at some point when your code just goes bonkers and you don't know why
[11:32] <ibanezmatt13_> I'm panicking now about destroying things with my code and messing with pointers... :/
[11:33] <russss> oh yeah, you can only shift one bit a time as well
[11:33] <ibanezmatt13_> sat here wondering how to proceed, lol
[11:34] <ibanezmatt13_> reckon I need to search the memory map in the avr datasheet first or is that unnecessary
[11:34] <Vaizki> search it for what?
[11:34] <ibanezmatt13_> safe places to store stuff
[11:35] <fsphil> you're not going to destroy things through software alone
[11:35] <ibanezmatt13_> I think this marks the point where I need a coffee :)
[11:35] <Vaizki> no no you are fine
[11:35] <Vaizki> don't worry about specific addresses
[11:36] <Vaizki> gcc will take care of putting your globals in the right place
[11:36] <Vaizki> libc will put malloc()d stuff in the right place (heap).. and stack will start from the other end of memory
[11:36] <ibanezmatt13_> So I can just say, char DDRB = 01011001; and then char *ptr = NULL; and then ptr = &DDRB or something, and be fine
[11:37] <Vaizki> yes
[11:37] <ibanezmatt13_> good
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[11:39] <ibanezmatt13_> when I come to read what's stored where the pointer points to, which is presumably the MSB of DDRB, will I be having to have a for loop shifting DDRB << 1 each time, so that I can read each value in DDRB from the same pointer?
[11:39] <Vaizki> http://www.codeproject.com/KB/system/712610/AVRMemMap.png
[11:39] <Vaizki> if you look at that middle bar, the DSEG is where globals go
[11:40] <Vaizki> and the stack grows from the other end
[11:40] <ibanezmatt13_> ah ok
[11:40] <fsphil> copy DDRB into your own variable
[11:40] <fsphil> shift that variable
[11:41] <Vaizki> http://www.nongnu.org/avr-libc/user-manual/malloc.html
[11:41] <Vaizki> that page also is good
[11:42] <Vaizki> but I think you only need the Introduction chapter
[11:42] <ibanezmatt13_> yeah probs
[11:42] <ibanezmatt13_> fsphil, you can't shift DDRB because it'll mess up the other pins, or you can't do it for some other reason?
[11:42] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[11:42] <ibanezmatt13_> I thought it was fine to shift DDRB because it was just sort of a copy of what's actually in the register
[11:43] <Vaizki> I think DDRB is the "live" register?
[11:43] <fsphil> yea, if you do DDRB <<= 1
[11:43] <Vaizki> so copy it and shift the copy
[11:43] <fsphil> it will read DDRB, shift all the values left one, then write that back to DDRB
[11:44] <fsphil> if you're just doing DDRB << 1, it won't affect DDRB
[11:45] <Vaizki> umm.. yes because.. DDRB << 1 is an expression and DDRB <<= 1 is a statement
[11:45] <ibanezmatt13_> But DDRB << 1 is taking a copy and shifting the copy by 1 and that's it
[11:45] <ibanezmatt13_> so DDRB = DDRB << 1 is rewriting DDRB
[11:45] <Vaizki> yes
[11:45] <fsphil> you got it
[11:45] <fsphil> but a = DDRB << 1 is fine
[11:45] <fsphil> DDRB is unaffected
[11:45] <ibanezmatt13_> excellent
[11:46] <ibanezmatt13_> Thank you all for the interesting bit bashing assistance
[11:46] <Vaizki> usually you would do something like d = DDRB; for (i=0;i<8;i++) { print(..); d = d >> 1; }
[11:47] <Vaizki> and only look at the LSB on d with (d & 1) to determine if it's set
[11:47] <fsphil> yea doing it backwards is easier
[11:47] <Vaizki> that way you shift through all the bits
[11:47] <ibanezmatt13_> yeah, so no need to use pointers and look at a certain address and do it that way?
[11:47] <fsphil> plus value & 1 == 0 or 1
[11:47] <fsphil> you can just print it directly
[11:47] <Vaizki> you can do it forwards too with << 1 and & 0x80
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[11:50] <ibanezmatt13> It's getting close to the point we're gonna bake a cake for BT to celebrate one year of no broadband, while the houses on either side have got it... talk about incompetence
[11:50] <fsphil> eek
[11:51] <ibanezmatt13> this 4G pointer thing is rubbish, it can't handle IRC for some reason :P
[11:51] <fsphil> mosh + weechat on a vps
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[11:51] <ibanezmatt13> yikes, pointer
[11:52] <Vaizki> oh and when dealing with memory, remember that a "static" variable inside a function is local only in scope (ie who can see it) but is actually allocated permanently just like a global variable
[11:52] <Vaizki> I have seen people put huge static "local" vars in and wonder where is all the mem
[11:52] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, isn't static when no matter how many times you run your function, it doesn't create another instance of the variable?
[11:52] <gonzo__> change to a different isp?
[11:52] <Vaizki> ibanezmatt13, yes so it persists between calls you could say
[11:52] <ibanezmatt13> yeah I've used it before
[11:53] <ibanezmatt13> daveake explained it to me
[11:53] <Vaizki> very useful in interrupt routines etc
[11:53] <ibanezmatt13> yeah I was turning my flightcode from timer based to interrupt :)
[11:53] <Vaizki> good
[11:53] <fsphil> use them sparingly
[11:54] <ibanezmatt13> gotta head out
[11:54] <ibanezmatt13> thanks again :)
[11:54] <ibanezmatt13> back later probably
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[11:54] <fsphil> we may have overloaded him :)
[11:54] <Vaizki> indeed
[11:56] Nick change: Reb-SM3ULC -> SM0ULC
[11:56] <Vaizki> it's a shame the 328p is just a TAD underequipped and then that's what everyone gets in on with arduino
[12:00] <Laurenceb> depends what you are doing
[12:01] <Laurenceb> I doubt there is much need for anything more powerful for basic balloon work
[12:02] <luteijn|pc1pcl> 2 or even 3 real serial ports would probably be nice especially when just starting out
[12:02] <Vaizki> well I guess a lot of noobs would be happy with 3 serial ports but
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[12:02] <Laurenceb> i suppose
[12:02] <Vaizki> hehe sync
[12:02] <luteijn|pc1pcl> so you can separate GPS, radio and debuggin properly
[12:03] <Vaizki> well I use i2c for GPS, ISR for radio.. but it's a bit of a push for someone who hasn't programmed much
[12:03] <Laurenceb> yeah thats how i did it
[12:04] <Laurenceb> PS--46 heading for Ecuador
[12:04] <Laurenceb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44t3xc_XDes
[12:06] <malgar> what is that ballon in zurich?
[12:06] <malgar> is it a test?
[12:10] <Vaizki> NUCLEO-F302R8 from STM32 costs under 10 euros.. the whole board with ST-Link et al.. has 72MHz Cortex M4 with FPU, 3 serial ports, adcs, dacs, comparators, 9 timers, etc etc ..
[12:10] <Vaizki> I hope they can build a good community around those nucleos
[12:11] <Vaizki> USART with DMA.. mmmm.. :)
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[12:16] <fsphil> very handy for transmitting
[12:16] <eroomde> isr to circular buffer is a poor man's dma that always works alright for me
[12:17] <fsphil> how would one use DMA for receiving data from the USART if you don't know how much data to expect?
[12:17] <mattbrejza> shame about lack of debugging on the avr
[12:17] <mattbrejza> (well without the debugger which no one uses)
[12:19] <Vaizki> https://developer.mbed.org/platforms/ST-Nucleo-L152RE/
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[12:19] <Vaizki> hmm I gotta pick up some of these
[12:19] <Vaizki> all these nucleos are the same price
[12:21] <Vaizki> hmm opamps on board?
[12:22] <mattbrejza> you mean 'Operationnal' amps lol
[12:22] <mattbrejza> i think on chip rather than on board
[12:22] <Vaizki> hehe right I have error correcting eyes
[12:22] <Vaizki> yes on chip.. wonder if they can be used for PT100 or K-thermocouples
[12:23] <Vaizki> but nice peripherals on that. and it's even the low power consumption model.
[12:24] <mattbrejza> http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/389/DM00098321-337369.pdf
[12:24] <mattbrejza> if you want to use pt100s you probably want the adc ref pin exposed too
[12:25] <Vaizki> The op-amps inputs feature 2-to-1 analogue multiplexer, allowing for a total of eight analogue channels to be pre-processed using the op-amp; all the op-amp outputs can be internally connected to ADCs.
[12:25] <Vaizki> woop woop
[12:26] <mattbrejza> does it have a differential adc?
[12:27] <Vaizki> The distinguishing feature for this series is presence of four fast, 12-bit, simultaneous sampling ADCs (multiplexer to over 30 channels), and interestingly, four matched, 8 MHz bandwidth OpAmps with all pins exposed and additionally internal PGA (Programmable Gain Array) network. The exposed pads allow for a range of analogue signal conditioning circuits like band-pass filters, anti-alias filters, charge amplifiers, integrators/differentiators,
[12:27] <Vaizki> 'instrumentation' high-gain differential inputs, and other. This eliminates need for external OpAmps for many applications. The built-in two-channel DAC has arbitrary waveform as well as a hardware-generated waveform (sine, triangle, noise etc.) capability. All analogue devices can be completely independent, or partially internally connected, meaning that one can have nearly everything that is needed for an advanced measurement and sensor
[12:27] <Vaizki> interfacing system in a single chip.
[12:27] <Vaizki> says wikipedia
[12:28] <Vaizki> so yes^2 or something
[12:28] <mattbrejza> oh so perhaps you can do nice things
[12:28] <mattbrejza> the adc has been a bit limited on previous parts (eg not exposing ref pins)
[12:29] <mattbrejza> and ref pins should be near Avcc
[12:29] <Vaizki> I am definitely getting a bunch of these
[12:31] <mattbrejza> cant find a block diagram of the adc in the datasheet....
[12:35] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: huh, most STM32s in reasonable packages have ref pins exposed
[12:35] <adamgreig> on the F2 and F3 especially the analogue stuff has been fantastic
[12:35] <mattbrejza> havnt used those lol
[12:35] <mattbrejza> theyre the newer ones?
[12:35] <eroomde> which 'instrumentation' in inverted commas
[12:35] <adamgreig> not really new any more...
[12:36] <eroomde> do they mean that it's not actually configurable as an int amp?
[12:36] <Vaizki> F3 is pretty new
[12:36] <mattbrejza> reasonable is >=64 pins though, no seperate pin on 48 pin f0 devices
[12:36] <Vaizki> adamgreig, that F3 nucleo seems to be a steal
[12:36] <adamgreig> all the nucleos are a steal
[12:37] <fsphil> nucleos a replacement or alternative to the discovery boards?
[12:37] <adamgreig> eroomde: i think you can configure them as inst amps quite readily
[12:37] <adamgreig> alternative fsphil
[12:37] <adamgreig> no other chips onboard
[12:37] <adamgreig> just the stm32 and pinouts
[12:37] <adamgreig> (and the programmer/mbed thing on the top)
[12:37] <fsphil> ah that's neat
[12:37] <adamgreig> eroomde: ultimately every pin of each opamp is broken out to pins
[12:37] <eroomde> oh right
[12:38] <eroomde> so you can just plug them all together
[12:38] <adamgreig> just you can instead direct various pins to other things
[12:38] <mattbrejza> st site is being crap so cant find the right datasheet...
[12:38] <adamgreig> internal switchboard to the adc and dac and other bits
[12:38] <eroomde> provided you can route them symmetrically, that could be appealing
[12:40] <Vaizki> adamgreig, have you used the STM32L152RE parts or nucleos?
[12:40] <adamgreig> not tried any L series yet
[12:41] <fsphil> nice, 12 different versions on farnell
[12:41] <Vaizki> they seem to be pretty sippy on power
[12:42] <Vaizki> 290nA standby :O
[12:42] <eroomde> i have an L discovery
[12:42] <eroomde> seems nice
[12:43] <eroomde> going to try a samd11 for something tho
[12:43] <mattbrejza> any nice features on the samd11?
[12:44] <eroomde> they come in very small qfns
[12:44] <eroomde> 12bit adc, 10bit dac
[12:44] <eroomde> dma
[12:44] <eroomde> hmm
[12:44] <eroomde> that's about it
[12:44] <eroomde> just decent, cheap, small packages
[12:44] <mattbrejza> ah nice :)
[12:44] <eroomde> lots of general purpose 'sercom' peripherals that can be configured to do various serial modes
[12:46] <eroomde> oh USB too iuw
[12:46] <eroomde> not bad on a 24pin qfn
[12:47] <eroomde> not in stock at farnell yet but 'coming soon'
[12:47] <eroomde> 69p in qty
[12:47] <mattbrejza> oh nice
[12:48] <eroomde> that dev board i linked to yesterday has one
[12:48] <eroomde> so i've grabbed one to have a quick play
[12:48] <mattbrejza> you have to pay a few £ to get usb on a stm32
[12:48] <eroomde> see what i can see
[12:49] <mattbrejza> well hopefully farnell will sell them in quantities less than 6000
[12:49] <eroomde> yes :)
[12:49] <eroomde> there are some slightly bigger ones in that family with much more flash
[12:50] <eroomde> but their smallest package is a 32 qfn
[12:50] <Vaizki> doesn't really matter to me if a MCU is 60p or £6 for my own projects :P
[12:51] <eroomde> no indeed
[12:51] <eroomde> all lost in the noise
[12:51] <Vaizki> but yes if I have to solder it, 24 pin qfn sounds better than 64
[12:52] <mattbrejza> it comes in 20pin SOIC too
[12:53] <Vaizki> what no pdip?
[12:53] <Vaizki> atmel has abandoned the breadboarders?!
[12:54] <mattbrejza> lol, pcb or gtfo
[12:54] <mattbrejza> you can always bodge one onto a 20pin 0.6" ic holder
[12:54] <eroomde> ordered too much wine last night at a tasting
[12:54] <eroomde> just got called to collect card details
[12:55] <eroomde> shouldn't buy stuff after tastings
[12:55] <adamgreig> haha
[12:55] <adamgreig> that's a solid con though
[12:55] <adamgreig> surprised they phone you the morning after to collect the card details
[12:55] <eroomde> it will all be delicious I'm sure :)
[12:55] <adamgreig> yea I bet!
[12:55] <adamgreig> no regrets once it arrives eh
[12:55] <eroomde> yeah
[12:55] <eroomde> well i'm doing a nice lunch on sunday for some friends
[12:55] <eroomde> so i got stuff for me then added 3 more bottles for this lunch
[12:56] <eroomde> all whites
[12:56] <eroomde> cos summer
[12:56] <adamgreig> nice
[12:57] <eroomde> i want to eat outside but forecast looks crap
[12:57] <eroomde> anyway sorry OT
[12:58] <Vaizki> wine is never too OT
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[12:59] <eroomde> it improves everything
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[13:07] <Vaizki> I wonder how the bbc micro:bit will work.. it's a cortex m0 with ble so I'm pretty sure it has to run via an event driven programming model like esp8266
[13:07] <Vaizki> but those are an utter pain to program for newbies
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[13:08] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KE4ERF-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KE4ERF-11
[13:11] <ibanezmatt13> Progress is very slow... I'm in Atmel AVR Studio now, running through simulator. I've got no errors, but nothing printing :/ http://pastebin.com/EUqxtaTA
[13:12] <Vaizki> ok what's with the !!
[13:12] <ibanezmatt13> I'm turning the hex into boolean
[13:12] <Vaizki> hehe
[13:13] <Vaizki> you learned to abuse C right away!
[13:13] <ibanezmatt13> gotta get stuck in :)
[13:13] <adamgreig> Vaizki: http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/mediapacks/microbit/thebbcmicrobit and http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/mediapacks/microbit/specs
[13:13] <adamgreig> the runtime includes an OO model, a fibre scheduler, a message bus for events
[13:15] <Vaizki> oooo.. :O
[13:15] <Vaizki> so a thick stack on there
[13:15] <Vaizki> no bare metal for the kids :)
[13:16] <adamgreig> hard to say, suspect bare metal might be available
[13:16] <adamgreig> but perhaps not the default, idk
[13:17] <Vaizki> it looks to me like those edge connector like things between the rings actually are an edge connector
[13:17] <adamgreig> they are
[13:17] <adamgreig> ^^ has all the details
[13:17] <mattbrejza> so does it compile each program to assembler, or is there any interpreter?
[13:17] <adamgreig> according to the website, it's compiled first
[13:17] <adamgreig> The BBC micro:bit is programmed through a web-based editing environment. This environment supplies various editors on which to write programs, and saves those programs to be retrieved later. The editors will support Microsofts Touch Develop language, JavaScript, Python, C++ and Blocks (a visual programming language). The user writes the programs for the micro:bit in their preferred language and these
[13:17] <Vaizki> ah now I see it, 22 pins out
[13:17] <adamgreig> are sent to a server that compiles them into the code the micro:bit understands. This is then downloaded to the user to easily drop onto the micro:bit.
[13:17] <mattbrejza> is this the same website that labelled a IC as a connector?
[13:17] <adamgreig> it's like mbed
[13:18] <adamgreig> well yes
[13:18] <Vaizki> I can already see the micro:bit pico tracker taking shape
[13:19] <mattbrejza> youll be in a race with the school kids
[13:19] <mattbrejza> but they get a few months headstart
[13:19] <adamgreig> not if you can get one off a school kid
[13:19] <adamgreig> swapsies for a bottle of alcopop
[13:19] <adamgreig> "sorry miss i lost mine"
[13:20] <eroomde> i thinking pimping is illegal adamgreig
[13:20] <adamgreig> giving alcohol to minors is definitely illegal and I wouldn't condone it
[13:20] <chimpusmaximus> You mean i might actually have an advantage to having kids for once.
[13:20] <adamgreig> depends, are they going to be entering year 7 this year? :P
[13:20] <chimpusmaximus> Yes....
[13:20] <adamgreig> ah perfect
[13:20] <adamgreig> then yes, you should get a new toy :P
[13:21] <chimpusmaximus> and this weekend i hope to do my first balloon flight for them
[13:21] <eroomde> oh cool
[13:21] <eroomde> from whwre?
[13:21] <adamgreig> are you simon?
[13:21] <Vaizki> I may have missed it but was there a production cost stated?
[13:21] <adamgreig> no I guess not, never mind
[13:21] <chimpusmaximus> Elsworth, but hope future ones can be more local to School in Peterborough
[13:22] <Vaizki> or is it secret because Freescale and Nordic don't want their rock bottom prices spilled?
[13:22] <adamgreig> Vaizki: hah, probably. suspect a lot of it's being given out for free
[13:22] <eroomde> farnell won't log me in
[13:22] <eroomde> looks like a db error
[13:22] <eroomde> this is tiresome
[13:22] <adamgreig> farnell was being v slow last night
[13:22] <adamgreig> much more so than usual
[13:23] <adamgreig> i can't wait for RS's new site
[13:23] <eroomde> what fun it'll be doing an order for 80 different SKUs over the phone
[13:23] <adamgreig> haha
[13:23] <adamgreig> good money on at least one screwing up
[13:23] <Vaizki> fax it to them
[13:23] <Vaizki> :)
[13:23] <eroomde> glad i went to the trouble of automating eagle's bom generation into a csv you can upload to the shopping basket
[13:23] <adamgreig> yea
[13:23] <adamgreig> my kicad does that, it's very handy
[13:24] <adamgreig> also identifies which parts don't have farnell order numbers associated
[13:24] <adamgreig> and puts the part designator into the farnell line note so it gets printed
[13:24] <adamgreig> alongside the package and what-it-is so I can check it on the shopping basket really easily
[13:24] <adamgreig> and avoid stupid mistakes where you put the wrong order number against something and buy a resistor instead of a microcontroller
[13:25] <Vaizki> the funny thing is you might not notice from the price
[13:25] <adamgreig> :p
[13:25] <Vaizki> we live in the future :)
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[13:25] <adamgreig> I've definitely bought resistors that were more expensive than microcontrollers
[13:25] <Vaizki> yea that's what I mean
[13:26] <adamgreig> they were good resistors though
[13:26] <eroomde> same
[13:26] <eroomde> the absurdly stable ones
[13:26] <eroomde> and the absurdly accurate ones
[13:26] <adamgreig> and the absurdly stable accurate ones
[13:27] <eroomde> i've not actually found many of those
[13:28] <adamgreig> mm I guess you usually get one or the other for serious extremes
[13:28] <adamgreig> one it's stable you can calibrate
[13:28] <adamgreig> I guess the high power ones are also quite expensive
[13:28] <adamgreig> I enjoyed these 0.05% 5ppm/C ones
[13:28] <adamgreig> but only like £1.22 each is ntb
[13:30] <eroomde> exactly
[13:30] <eroomde> (re: once it's stable you calibrate)
[13:34] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KD0AWK-14 after 0316 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD0AWK-14
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[14:21] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
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[14:42] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> UpuWork, just to say having problems with Paypal paying for Conf. ticket
[14:42] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> "An error occurred while processing your request. Before submitting this again, log in and check your Account History to ensure that the transaction didn't complete." each of three times :-(
[14:48] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Nope its refused you again, nor does it allow me to get back to your/wiki site afterwards any ideas ??
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[15:02] <UpuWork> odd
[15:02] <UpuWork> can you just send direct payment to conference@ukhas.org.uk Geoff-G8DHE ?
[15:02] <UpuWork> let me just check that
[15:03] <UpuWork> yep thats correct
[15:03] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> OK shpuld be able to let me give that ago
[15:05] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Looks good "You've sent £30.00 to conference@ukhas.org.uk"
[15:06] <UpuWork> yep got it
[15:06] <UpuWork> thanks
[15:06] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> thats good then!
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[15:08] <UpuWork> all sorted
[15:09] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Luverly see you their
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[15:10] <UpuWork> yup
[15:12] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
[15:36] <fsphil> bring cake
[15:43] <Laurenceb> this looks useful http://www.neos-server.org/neos/solvers/index.html
[15:44] <infaddict> See you there Geoff-G8DHE-Lap!
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[15:57] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[16:50] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03COPA1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=COPA1
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[18:25] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SHEN1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SHEN1
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[18:50] <chimpus> Quick question, between randomsolutions and habhub which is more better for predicting burst altitude? Finding about 4000m difference.
[18:51] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Probably within the likely range of burst heights for the balloon, they don't test them before there sent out you realise ;-)
[18:54] <chimpus> :-) just dont remember last time such a difference last time i was doing some predictions.
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[18:56] <adamgreig> chimpus: it's an interesting point
[18:57] <adamgreig> usually they are not miles off
[18:57] <adamgreig> what balloon and etc?
[18:57] <adamgreig> basically they have different models and assumptions and underlying data
[18:58] <adamgreig> both are only as good as your ability to fill the balloon accurately anyway though
[19:00] <chimpus> Hwoyee HY-500
[19:01] <chimpus> Very true on filling, for some reason this time i feel more pressure as it went so well the first time.
[19:25] <Lunar_Lander> heart on pluto http://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasa-s-new-horizons-a-heart-from-pluto-as-flyby-begins
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[19:53] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03WMSI_HAB after 032 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WMSI_HAB
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[19:59] <chimpus> Currently i use a usb adapter to get audio into either a macbook or a surface 3. I noticed the surafce 3 has a headset socket and wondered if soemthing like this might work. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-5mm-Stereo-TRRS-4-Pole-Plug-To-Earphone-Headset-Mic-Audio-Adapter-PC-iphone-/261661488153?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368
[20:00] <chimpus> I was thinking a head set was normaly 3 pole?
[20:02] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SHEN2 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SHEN2
[20:03] <Geoff-G8DHE> Probably includes microphone (mono) as well as stereo audio output, + earth of course.
[20:04] <Geoff-G8DHE> Oh yes its says so in the description!
[20:10] <chimpus> Was hoping it might free up my single usb port on surafce
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[23:04] <Laurenceb_> PS-46 in need of US receivers
[23:04] <Laurenceb_> maybe things will improve in a few hours once the sun sets
[23:05] <fsphil> they only come out at night?
[23:06] <Laurenceb_> lol
[23:06] <Laurenceb_> the ionosphere changes
[23:06] <fsphil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B436avtEXzs
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[00:00] --- Thu Jul 9 2015