highaltitude.log.20150630

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[00:41] <DrLuke> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIXKqGFqxmI
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[05:28] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03EU1XX-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=EU1XX-11
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[08:05] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RAJ-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=RAJ-1
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[08:36] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03iu4blx_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=iu4blx_chase
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[08:51] <MickMondo> Morning all,, anyone here to approve a flight doc ..?
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[08:52] <infaddict> head over to #habhub and ask MickMondo
[08:53] <infaddict> they will approve for you
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[09:03] <MickMondo_> where abouts on HabHub can I get a flight approved ...?
[09:04] <craag> MickMondo_: /join #habhub
[09:05] <craag> It's another channel for habhub technical stuff
[09:05] <craag> Post the flight doc id in there, the bot will check it for you, and then an admin can approve it.
[09:06] <MickMondo_> ah found it ... cheers for that
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[09:10] <x-f> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/06/150629-leap-second-atomic-astronomical-time-earth-rotation-physics/
[09:10] <x-f> it's gonna be a long day.. ;)
[09:10] <UpuWork> arf
[09:11] <gonzo_> must watch my msf clock and see what it does for that
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[09:23] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CT2JVS - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CT2JVS
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[09:30] <michal_f> hello
[09:32] <infaddict> hi michal_f
[09:38] <arjunnaha> Could have been one of ours! http://dailym.ai/1KmJAck
[09:41] <chimpusmaximus> I would not be surprised if it was a quadrocopter
[09:42] <chimpusmaximus> Having flown them myself and seen what others do in blatant disregard to ANO nothing would shock me.
[09:43] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03MONDO-12 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=MONDO-12
[09:48] <arjunnaha> It says, further in the article how it could have been a 'baloo
[09:49] <arjunnaha> *balloon
[09:51] <chimpusmaximus> but then quotes pilot as The pilot commented that it appeared to be propeller-driven
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[09:55] <infaddict> My humble 1st HAB attempt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxYeB27cd-k
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[09:57] <chimpusmaximus> Excellent i'll take a look
[09:57] <chimpusmaximus> Its does look very wet
[10:00] <tweetBot> @daveake: Nice vid of the HAB flight I helped launch on Sun. Best prepped newbie launch I've seen, and wettest period! https://t.co/mKsVzD0P59 #UKHAS
[10:01] <daveake> so wet
[10:01] <chimpusmaximus> Its the amount of water just on ground sheet
[10:02] <infaddict> yep look at the photos of us on groundsheet. milky talc water! look at it coming down simons arms.
[10:02] <chimpusmaximus> So glad my 1st was in lovely sun shine
[10:03] <daveake> Nearly as wet as Upu's flight ages ago ... http://www.daveakerman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/P1040634-e1342443936629-682x1024.jpg
[10:03] <craag> It's the shorts
[10:03] <craag> clearly
[10:03] <daveake> hah
[10:03] <craag> someone wearing shorts = wet day
[10:04] <chimpusmaximus> infaddict: what camera was it you used?
[10:05] <tweetBot> @Tim_Hines: My first HAB flight. Wet, windy and tech issues but great fun! Thx to @daveake & @AnthonyStirk https://t.co/4jzuNiBj9I #highaltitude #ukhas
[10:05] <infaddict> lol yep shorts = rain
[10:06] <infaddict> chimpusmaximus: i used 2 cheap (£20 on ebay) Canon Powershot A1000's
[10:06] <eroomde> false
[10:06] <eroomde> shorts = hab launch
[10:06] <infaddict> i didnt want to spend loads on 1st flight and lose everything
[10:06] <adamgreig> shorts = hello ed
[10:07] <eroomde> i don't think i've ever launched a hab in trousers
[10:07] <infaddict> i'm annoyed at the video because i had tested CHDK looping video script many times and worked each time. i can only think the crazy rain meant i pressed wrong button in the hurry to get electronics covered up.
[10:07] <chimpusmaximus> If any one ever needs them i do have a Canon A70 and S80 free to a good home.
[10:08] <daveake> infaddict My first flight the stills camera got accidentally switched off before launch, after some tracker issues (which were actually just me mistuning the receiver)
[10:08] <daveake> So then I had to do another flight and get it right ...
[10:08] <infaddict> indeed ;-)
[10:08] <daveake> .... 51 flights later :p
[10:09] <infaddict> lol
[10:09] <chimpusmaximus> hehe
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[10:09] <chimpusmaximus> I forgot about the antenna straws being in shot
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[10:09] <eroomde> you're over 50 flights now daveake?
[10:09] <eroomde> that's gotta be worth a celebratory bottle
[10:09] <daveake> yeah, the 50th was the eclipse one
[10:10] <eroomde> or a celebratory bacon sandwich
[10:10] <eroomde> or both
[10:10] <daveake> and yes beer was involved
[10:10] <eroomde> champage breakfast
[10:10] <daveake> but only one we were all knackered
[10:10] <daveake> :)
[10:10] <eroomde> with a bacon sarnie
[10:11] <eroomde> i think we celebrated the 10th
[10:11] <eroomde> don't recall celebrating the 50th
[10:11] <eroomde> generally lost count somewhere in the 80s
[10:12] <daveake> :)
[10:12] <eroomde> i suspect cos a lot of it was mirred in the parachute test program which stopped being fun quite early on
[10:13] <eroomde> and there were a lot of flights associated with that that weren't really properly recorded or given a nova number or anything
[10:15] <eroomde> that was when it all stopped being fun for me. not launched anything since
[10:15] <daveake> I've only done 1 launch since the beeb one ...
[10:16] <daveake> ... a) got a bit tired of it
[10:16] <daveake> b) working on new things
[10:16] <daveake> c) weather and spare time haven't coincided for a while
[10:16] <eroomde> indeed mine corresponded with b) quite strongly too
[10:16] <eroomde> rockets
[10:17] <eroomde> you moved house someone in among that lot too
[10:17] <daveake> Feb last year
[10:17] <eroomde> oh chripes
[10:17] <daveake> Still not got an aerial up
[10:17] <eroomde> time flies
[10:17] <daveake> waiting on a promised 20% ebay discount then I;m getting a scam mast
[10:18] <daveake> which will need powering from the shed ... which needs an armoured cable from the house to be put in ....
[10:18] <daveake> So big list of stuff that needs doing
[10:19] <eroomde> and a compressor
[10:19] <daveake> ofc but that's cheap and eassy
[10:19] <eroomde> see if you can lay a 3-phse if you're going to the trouble of digging a trench anyway :)
[10:19] <eroomde> i think my next house is going to need 3-phase
[10:19] <eroomde> and a substantial workshop
[10:20] <eroomde> i've got too used to it at work
[10:20] <daveake> yeah I checked a forum or two for advice on cabling. Typical Q&A would be:
[10:20] <daveake> Noob: "I need a 60W lamp in my little shed what armoured cable do I need?"
[10:20] <daveake> Group response: "10^2mm as sooner or later you'll want to run an arc welder"
[10:21] <eroomde> it's true!
[10:21] <daveake> I know!
[10:21] <russss> heh
[10:21] <eroomde> i subbed out a 32A 3ph for 64 given i went to thr trouble of running of cutting a trench across our access road
[10:21] <eroomde> you just never know when you'll need it
[10:22] <eroomde> that said i almost had a heart attack trying to draw the damn thing through the tunnel
[10:22] <eroomde> and a hernia
[10:22] <daveake> I bet
[10:22] <eroomde> it's like wrestling a python, trying to lay that stuff
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[10:23] <eroomde> the contractors leant me this nice drum holder for big amounts of cable
[10:23] <eroomde> it was like two truck axke stands with a big (2@ dia) steel bar between them
[10:24] <eroomde> and you put the big drum on that
[10:24] <bradfirj> Ever tried to put in 64core corrugated tube armored cable? Now that's 'fun'
[10:24] <bradfirj> It bends, slightly, with three people to pull on it >.>
[10:25] <bradfirj> Unfortunately we have lots of rodent issues here so it's a necessity. They just munch straight through the steel wire tape stuff
[10:25] <bradfirj> So it needs the corrugated plate armor
[10:25] <eroomde> yeah i got fed up with the 64 and split it into a pair of 32s outside the bunker
[10:26] <eroomde> than ran the 32s in individually
[10:26] <eroomde> they're so much easier to lay (i got the extra flexible stuff)
[10:26] <eroomde> e.g.
[10:26] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/ru2w6j7u95ti2v8/2015-06-18%2013.38.41.jpg?dl=0
[10:26] <eroomde> you can just run it along cable tray nicely
[10:26] <bradfirj> At least fibre is a bit lighter
[10:26] <eroomde> (the one at the top of the tray going to the isolator box, before i plumbed in the phases)
[10:26] <bradfirj> I don't want to imagine what it would be like if those 64cores were heavy gauge copper
[10:27] <eroomde> but so many nice old tools are 3-phase i'd want it even for a small domestic workshop
[10:28] <eroomde> a nice old gearbox pillar drill made in the 60s in sheffield or dagenham or somewhere
[10:28] <eroomde> that just ran quietly and smoothly and without runnout
[10:28] <eroomde> i want this
[10:28] <eroomde> not a belt-driven chinese rattle-box
[10:30] <Vaizki> I find it weird that you don't have 3-phase power into all houses :P
[10:31] <eroomde> do you?
[10:31] <eroomde> it usually goes to a pole on the street here
[10:31] <eroomde> then they distribute the phases up
[10:32] <eroomde> among a few houses
[10:32] <Vaizki> yes, I've never seen a meter for example with anything else than 3 phases
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[10:32] <eroomde> how does it get used within a house?
[10:32] <eroomde> do you have a phase for each floor?
[10:32] <adamgreig> or are all your sockets 3ph :p
[10:32] <eroomde> do people ever blow themselves up by accidently crossing two phases?
[10:32] <Vaizki> we try to balance the load among the three
[10:32] <eroomde> one can survive 240 but 415 is pushing it
[10:33] <Vaizki> umm no they don't.. :)
[10:33] <infaddict> never cross the beams
[10:33] <Vaizki> people don't do electrical work here, it's illegal :P
[10:33] <Vaizki> well sometimes a bit ;)
[10:34] <Vaizki> you need courses, certifications and work experience to become a licensed electrical technician
[10:34] <Vaizki> I guess the same over there..
[10:34] <daveake> yup
[10:34] <daveake> there's a limited amount you're allowed to do without that
[10:34] <infaddict> you can do some work yourself
[10:35] <Vaizki> but anyway, all houses and I'd say flats also get 3 phases
[10:35] <Vaizki> yea you can change a plug or cable on a lamp etc
[10:35] <adamgreig> why? what do you do with it?
[10:35] <daveake> so, for example, replacing a light switch is OK, or adding a spur
[10:35] <daveake> but not putting in a ring main
[10:35] <Vaizki> oh and we don't do rings here
[10:35] <Vaizki> that's just weird ;)
[10:35] <eroomde> i do all of it myself
[10:36] <Vaizki> in my house every outlet goes directly to the main circuit breaker cabinet in the cellar
[10:36] <Vaizki> in it's own cabling duct
[10:36] <adamgreig> haha rings are a particularly british phenomenon aiui
[10:36] <adamgreig> nice though
[10:36] <adamgreig> less copper ;)
[10:36] <Vaizki> yea I know how it works :)
[10:36] <infaddict> we have restrictions in certain zones too (like bathrooms)
[10:37] <Vaizki> and I don't think we "need" 3 phases in most buildings but that's the "product" the electrical distribution company ships everywhere
[10:37] <Vaizki> I even have 3 phases on my island now ;)
[10:38] <eroomde> so here you can do it all yourself unless it's a brand new ring
[10:38] <eroomde> or something near a bath/shower
[10:38] <eroomde> or a more safety-critical thing like a fuse-box
[10:38] <eroomde> otherwise you can self-certify as a competant person
[10:39] <Vaizki> I wish it was so here as well...
[10:39] <eroomde> but general repair and maintenance you can definitely Just Do as a random homeowner
[10:39] <eroomde> and at work we do everything
[10:39] <infaddict> yep or do it yourself (if competent) and then get a leccy mate to sign it off
[10:39] <Vaizki> we have to get certified guys for anything beyond making or fixing single phase extension cords or screwing in lightbulbs
[10:40] <eroomde> it's amazing how just being a rocket person means people assume you know what you're doing
[10:40] <gonzo_> outsude wiring is also a 'special area' as far as wiring is concerened. But interesingly, if yoiu classify your shed as being a shower room, they don't seem to have an 'outside bathroom' as a special area
[10:40] <gonzo_> loophole
[10:40] <Vaizki> "rocket man" is too gender specific? :)
[10:40] <eroomde> actually most don't (especially our neighbouring rocket companies, electrically) but it jsut so happens there's a lot of electronics and electrical keeness in our company :)
[10:41] <Vaizki> I would do all the electrical work myself if I could
[10:41] <gonzo_> a few years ago, the IET recommended just dumping all the restriction on diy wiirnmg. As home owners were just ignoring it all anyway
[10:41] <Vaizki> don't have a mate to sign off the stuff...
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[10:42] <gonzo_> (stocking uip on wiring that predated the new restrictions is useful too)
[10:42] <Vaizki> gonzo_, well the insurance companies here aren't ignoring it.. they will jump on any sign of diy and refuse to pay
[10:42] <gonzo_> the regs only came in around 2000, so anything done before that is fine
[10:43] <eroomde> yeah we still have red/yellow/blue 3-ph cable kicking around
[10:43] <eroomde> not sure why they changed it to brown/black/grey
[10:44] <eroomde> i guess in the new stuff brown is L1 as in single-phase mains, and blue is neutral, likewise
[10:44] <eroomde> so it's stricly a superset og single phase wiring colours
[10:44] <infaddict> think it was more the UK aligning with EU
[10:45] <gonzo_> the certified people are just as bad. Heard over the weekend of CU connections not being tightened down.The guy had to go around afterwartds and rechech the so calle dprofessional work
[10:45] <gonzo_> the 3ph colours is just a scream (literally0
[10:45] <Vaizki> yea I had that same problem in my previous house
[10:45] <Vaizki> had to tighten down everything in the circuit breaker cabinet
[10:46] <gonzo_> the contractor who does our works stuff says he sees so many where the blue/black wiring changes so many times along the runs, that the only fix is to strip it out ansd start again
[10:48] <gonzo_> old: blue = phase, black = neutral
[10:48] <gonzo_> new: black = phase, blue = neutral
[10:49] <gonzo_> you copuldn't make tthis stuff up
[10:49] <eroomde> yes messing that up sounds like not a good idea
[10:49] <Vaizki> it's easier when everything goes straight to a central cabinet ;)
[10:49] <gonzo_> at least the domestid colours are just different
[10:49] <adamgreig> does this mean you also don't have very many outlets? seems like it would quickly be an outrageous amount of cable
[10:50] <adamgreig> like my room has six outlets all next to each other in one corner near my desk
[10:50] <adamgreig> and probably ten in the whole room?
[10:50] <infaddict> mmm i was just thinking same thing adamgreig
[10:50] <Vaizki> adamgreig, well of course you can string nearby outlets
[10:50] <adamgreig> do you just use a lot of extension leads? :P
[10:50] <infaddict> ah so you spur but not ring
[10:50] <gonzo_> as an aside, latest reqs in the regs... All CUs must be metal. After lots of fires due to fires in CUs (due to not tightened connections!)
[10:50] <Vaizki> but we're not running rings around the house
[10:51] <adamgreig> so how many wires might you run to each room?
[10:52] <Vaizki> well this varies but I have separate wiring for lighting, outlets and major appliances
[10:53] <Vaizki> so my kitchen has 2 lighting circuits, one for oven only, another for fridge & freezer and one for outlets.. so 4 there
[10:53] <Vaizki> sorry 5
[10:54] <Vaizki> but personally I think the regulations are already too strict. it's paralyzing when doing anything requires you to call 2 experts on site and costs an arm and a leg :P
[10:54] <adamgreig> how intense is your fridge/freezer that it needs its own circuit separate to outlets :P
[10:55] <eroomde> could get work to pay you to be on a comp person register
[10:55] <Vaizki> adamgreig, it's not.. that's just how it's been done :)
[10:56] <Vaizki> also regulations demand that appliances like the fridge must be unpluggable without touching the fridge
[10:56] <Vaizki> so an additional headache to place outlets for them so they are reachable but not behind the appliances
[10:56] <luteijn|pc1pcl> hmm so outlet can't be 'hidden' behind the fridge?
[10:56] <Vaizki> nope
[10:57] <Vaizki> this would all come in handy if I set up a house-wide UPS though...
[10:57] <Vaizki> easy to select the right circuits to power
[10:58] <gonzo_> but you could hide it behind the dishwasher. As you can touch that to unplug the fridge??
[10:59] <Vaizki> oh and everything is behind RCDs and safety grounded
[10:59] <Vaizki> gonzo_, I don't think so :)
[10:59] <gonzo_> I have some mains cable in my my network stuff. So I can UPS to different rooms/loft/shed
[11:00] <Vaizki> also all our outlets are required by law to be child protected
[11:00] <Vaizki> which is a good thing and I guess eu-wide now
[11:00] <gonzo_> I have a feeling that individual rcds on each cct (RCBO's) are req for new installs now in UK
[11:00] <Vaizki> cct?
[11:00] <eroomde> uk ones are
[11:00] <eroomde> i do think european mains outlets suck massively
[11:00] <gonzo_> UK sockets have had shuttered outlets foe a long time
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[11:01] <Vaizki> eh.. and I think uk ones are ridicilous :)
[11:01] <ok1cdj> hello all
[11:01] <eroomde> they have nothing going from them apart from that the connectors are less bulky which is only useful when it comes to taking a laptop charger in your bag
[11:01] <gonzo_> big and chunky
[11:01] <mattbrejza> how do you child protect a EU outlet?
[11:01] <Vaizki> it has shutters in the holes
[11:01] <daveake> natural selection?
[11:01] <Vaizki> http://www.eftac.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Socket-Outlet-UPS-Child-Protection-Cream.jpg
[11:02] <Vaizki> like you can see there..
[11:02] <luteijn|pc1pcl> or you put in some sort of insert that requires you to turn plug when inserting.
[11:02] <mattbrejza> https://mmmreferences.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/bunny-faces.jpg ?
[11:02] <gonzo_> the uk 13A outlet must be rated far above 13a
[11:02] <eroomde> yeah
[11:03] <gonzo_> though some cheap 4way strips are probably not
[11:03] <Vaizki> and what's with the fuses in the plugs..
[11:03] <mattbrejza> im suprised they didnt already have that (crappy EU plugs...)
[11:03] <gonzo_> not after a few cycles anyway
[11:03] <Vaizki> mattbrejza, umm they do have them
[11:03] <gonzo_> the fuse protectc the cable
[11:03] <eroomde> Vaizki: well the device with the plug knows how much current it needs
[11:03] <eroomde> so you can put the appropriate fuse with it
[11:03] <eroomde> makes total sense
[11:04] <Vaizki> why can't the fuse be in the device?
[11:04] <eroomde> if it should never need more than 1A then if it's pulling 3 there's something wrong
[11:04] <eroomde> it can be
[11:04] <eroomde> sometimes it is
[11:04] <gonzo_> Nope, I think the fuse is only to protect the cable. The device sould have it's own fuse
[11:04] <eroomde> sometimes it's on the plug because that's the only user-accessible part
[11:04] <Vaizki> well it will protect the cable on either end of it :D
[11:04] <luteijn|pc1pcl> since you have a big fat plug anyway, might as well use it to house another fuse ;)
[11:04] <gonzo_> especially when you start having IEC leads
[11:04] <mfa298> there's something to be said for needing qualified people to do electrical work. When I moved into my flat there was a metal strip light in the bathroom (open bulb), with three wires (LNE) coming out to a terminal block selotaped to an overflow pipe, with two wires (LN) then going into the wall where the light was probably supposed to go.
[11:05] <gonzo_> if you have a 5A rated 13a-iec lead, you fuse it at the cable rating. As the leads are interchangenble
[11:06] <eroomde> yes that's true, but most of your things with leads won't be IEC
[11:06] <ok1cdj> please approve flight RAJ-1, thank you...
[11:06] <eroomde> they'll just be built into the applicance
[11:06] <gonzo_> friend did the full part17 course earlier in the year. He spent much oif the time correcting the instructor
[11:06] <craag> ok1cdj: Post the flight doc id in #habhub channel, and then ask there :)
[11:07] <gonzo_> true ed, in that case you can derate the fuse to match the draw
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[11:08] <eroomde> just the lack of earth on many european plugs is really bad
[11:09] <luteijn|pc1pcl> those are either ancient devices, or the doubly isolated ones.
[11:09] <ok1cdj> tnx
[11:10] <Vaizki> yea there are a bunch of devices which are double insolated and don't "need" earthing
[11:10] <Vaizki> typically the mains just ends up in a transformer right away
[11:10] <eroomde> yeah, never been convinced by that at all
[11:11] <Vaizki> well people don't die from them
[11:11] <eroomde> a small phone-charge might survive being dropped with 2 layers of plastic instead of one
[11:11] <eroomde> but i'm not sure i'd want that on my kettle
[11:12] <gonzo_> where you have emc filtering on non earthed stuff, the designers seem to have a prob with not being able to leave the centre of the caps (the old earth point) floating. So they tie iut to the output 0V
[11:12] <gonzo_> meaning you get leakage V on your kit
[11:12] <SpeedEvil> If you don't do that, there is no ground path for conducted EMI
[11:13] <gonzo_> but you conduct the RF straight fthroughb to the mains
[11:13] <SpeedEvil> Plus, the alternative is worse - tie it to one or the other input
[11:14] <luteijn|pc1pcl> if a device would be better off with a real earth, that is still an option to use anyway...
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[11:14] <luteijn|pc1pcl> probably means you have to make it use a detachable lead as there's still sooooo many 'old' outlets spread out over europe, all with different Earthing schemes.
[11:15] <gonzo_> when they have caps, followed by chokes, why woul you then jumper the earth point to the oyjer side of the psu. Bypassing the chokes
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[11:18] <Vaizki> this reminds me I need to convert my dining table lights at the summer cabin to 12V probably.. they are brass and not grounded :)
[11:18] <Vaizki> just L+N going into a brass lamp and a bulb socket inside
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[11:19] <gonzo_> just add an earth?
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[11:21] <Vaizki> well that's an option too but might as well make them dimmable at the same time.. and I don't want to swap out the transparent shielded cable to something fugly
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[11:49] <Laurenceb_> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund#/story
[11:53] <daveake> That current total isn't enough to get me to drink a bottle of Ouzo
[11:55] <UpuWork> I actually tempted to back that one as its a) the only realistic option I've seen b) I'm bored of the news atm
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[12:07] <Vaizki> it was suggested apple could bail out greece for a tax deal :)
[12:07] <Vaizki> iZorbas
[12:14] <tweetBot> @HaganDr: Yr 8 experiments investigating the challenges of life on Mars. Here are their experiments at the edge of Space https://t.co/BNziBvcSRi
[12:17] <Laurenceb_> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1090944145/pocket-nc-the-first-5-axis-cnc-mill-for-your-deskt?ref=category
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[12:30] <infaddict> any experience here of using 3 axis gimbals with Go Pro's for HAB?
[12:31] <eroomde> you want to talk to babs
[12:31] <eroomde> i'm not sure how much go-pro specific experience there is but certainly gimballing cameras has been done a few times
[12:32] <Laurenceb_> eww go-pro
[12:32] <SpeedEvil> infaddict: What are you trying to do
[12:32] <infaddict> i am not committed to Go Pro. I am using that as a kind of "hoover" phrase for decent HD video ;-)
[12:32] <SpeedEvil> 'point at a given object with no camera shake' is very different from 'stop it spinning so fast'
[12:33] <infaddict> i want to get HD quality video but perhaps with less violent rotation etc. so something to slow down that and i was thinking of gimbals as used by drones.
[12:33] <tweetBot> @AmsatUK: #Essex Schools Launch #STEM Balloons with 434MHz Slow Scan Digital Video http://t.co/UNVuAPIHhP #amsat #hamradio #hamr #ukhas
[12:33] <infaddict> camera would still move (not fixed at 1 point) but smoothed
[12:34] <chimpusmaximus> My only experience was 2 axis on a quad and thus would not cover the rotation(spin) of payload.
[12:35] <eroomde> you can have stable hab flights without active damping
[12:35] <eroomde> need to take care with rigging and so on
[12:36] <eroomde> we once needed a really low rotation rate one to test a homemade star tracker
[12:36] <eroomde> let me find a wid one sec
[12:36] <eroomde> you'll see what i mean
[12:37] <eroomde> https://vimeo.com/3803248
[12:38] <eroomde> so there are two things to note there
[12:38] <eroomde> 1) the fairly long distance between payload and balloon (well, balloons, that was another part of this experiment)
[12:38] <eroomde> 2) the draps to damp oscillations
[12:38] <eroomde> you can see it's solid as a rock, rotationally, during launch
[12:39] <infaddict> mmm interesting
[12:39] <eroomde> that was extreme, but my point is there's a lot you can do with passive systems before you jusp into active
[12:39] <infaddict> so 4 vanes
[12:40] <infaddict> as an example, this one is hand held but principal the same http://www.amazon.co.uk/Newest-3-Axis-Handle-Brushless-Steady-G3-3-Axis-Gimbal/dp/B00LJNLZOW
[12:40] <infaddict> but of course costs a lot
[12:40] <eroomde> this video had none of that, just a normal box payload https://vimeo.com/1640214
[12:40] <eroomde> that's typical of the kind of stability you can get without really actively trying
[12:40] <eroomde> if i wanted better than that i'd go with vanes
[12:41] <infaddict> i dont want any better than that. i guess its pot luck what wind is around but likely some parts of the flight (at least) would be more stable than others.
[12:41] <eroomde> so use tubular braid
[12:41] <eroomde> not string
[12:41] <eroomde> that doesn't twist up so much
[12:41] <eroomde> have a good 30m of so between payload and balloon
[12:41] <eroomde> and optionally, add some vanes (just polystyrene sheet, say)
[12:41] <eroomde> between that lot any residual motion should be pretty small
[12:42] <infaddict> tubular braid - never heard of that - will google!
[12:42] <eroomde> for interests's sake, that dual-balloon thing was to try and get a floater back in the days when balloon didn't float (totex ones, we didn't have hwoyee then)
[12:42] <infaddict> i'd much prefer to engineer something than buy something
[12:42] <eroomde> so we had two balloons, one bigger one that had only-just-positive lift
[12:43] <eroomde> then a smaller one on a cutdown (about 500g balloon) with about 3kg of free lift
[12:43] <mfa298> I think some people have also added a fishing swivel into the line to help reduce spin.
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[12:43] <eroomde> that did the hauling up to 28km at which point we detached it and left the system to just hang under the just-bouyant balloon
[12:43] <eroomde> so it could then do it's star-camera thing unimpeded for a while
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[12:44] <infaddict> yer swivels between payload and balloon was something i'd thought of, might help
[12:44] <eroomde> i'm not mega sure they help that much
[12:45] <infaddict> interesting experiment you did eroomde. how did you detach that first balloon?
[12:45] <eroomde> the torques are so tiny that the swivel stiction will just transmit it all through
[12:45] <Vaizki> trained hamster
[12:45] <daveake> agreed eroomde
[12:45] <eroomde> infaddict: that was the first time i didn't use an explosive cutdown
[12:45] <eroomde> which is my preferred way
[12:45] <daveake> I've tried them; can't say it seemed to make any difference
[12:45] <eroomde> but i was worried about bits of flying plastic killing the other balloon
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[12:45] <eroomde> so for that one we made a melty cutdown
[12:46] <infaddict> logic controlled/timed?
[12:46] <eroomde> it was basically a cylinder, chopping in half down its length
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[12:46] <eroomde> so that you got a 'D' shape for each half
[12:46] <eroomde> follow?
[12:46] <infaddict> yes
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[12:46] <eroomde> then we drilled through each D
[12:46] <eroomde> so like a D with a dot in the middle
[12:46] <eroomde> (there's probably a unicode for it somewhere)
[12:46] <infaddict> ha
[12:47] <eroomde> then we attached the Ds together with a cable tie
[12:47] <eroomde> so it was back to a cylinder
[12:47] <eroomde> then put a resistor at the join of the Ds right under the cable tie
[12:47] <Vaizki> there are fishing swivels with ball bearings, they might work better than normal ones
[12:47] <eroomde> the drilled holes in each D half had a loop of harness through them, one down to the payload, one up to the balloon
[12:48] <eroomde> so when we dumped 12V through the resistor, it melted the cable tie and the two halves separated
[12:48] <Laurenceb_> https://ukhas.org.uk/_media/projects:dscn1015.jpg?cache=cache
[12:48] <infaddict> right understand. what triggered the 12V?
[12:48] <infaddict> altitude?
[12:48] <Vaizki> http://fishfreakonline.com/tsunamiheavydutyswivels.html
[12:48] <infaddict> as i thought remote control was not allowed
[12:49] <daveake> remote control is allowed
[12:49] <Ian_> Would plastic mesh fly swatters, a bit like those used on the Falcon9 booster for descent, give a degree of control at least in the lower atmosphere and inertia damping higher up?
[12:50] <eroomde> yes it was altitude
[12:50] <eroomde> although we have done remote control
[12:50] <infaddict> ah right daveake. for some reason i thought remote control put it outside "unmanned" specification.
[12:51] <infaddict> that why tree cutter downers werent allowed
[12:51] <eroomde> it's grey enough (re ham radio usage) that i was ok with doing it
[12:51] <eroomde> however for 99% of purposes i'd just do one of my explodey cutdowns
[12:52] <Ian_> Is Dyneema good at 100 lbs breaking strain (or more needed - 240 lb) for the braided cord component and are swivels a potential reliability issue?
[12:52] <theRealSIbot> In real units: 100 lbs = 45.4 kg
[12:52] <Laurenceb_> remote control as in uplink?
[12:52] <mfa298> I'm not sure just remote cutdown would count as remote control in terms of control of unmanned devices (you can't steer it like that - like remote control of a drone)_
[12:52] <infaddict> yer i am only going from memory and chats I've seen on here so i will have got wrong end of stick
[12:53] <infaddict> so can u allow remote control (i.e. i control something from the ground) as long as its not impacting flight controls? like a balloon release or line cutting?
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[12:53] <mfa298> as eroomde suggested there's a grey area about using amateur radio for control of cutdowns (there's a post in the mailing list archives about that) - although you could use something like lora now in the license free band
[12:54] <Laurenceb_> I dont see why its a grey area
[12:54] <infaddict> for tree cut downs i guess you are then close enough to use standard RC stuff?
[12:54] Action: infaddict thinks he mightve opened a can of worms
[12:54] <Laurenceb_> the Tx power and band he used was all legit
[12:54] <Laurenceb_> so its 100% legit
[12:55] <Ian_> I think no can of worms. RYRYRY CQ CQ RYRYRYR pop - just a coincidence!
[12:55] <Ian_> Shared band etc.
[12:55] <Darkside> haha
[12:55] <Darkside> yes
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[12:56] <mfa298> Laurenceb_: more that amateur radio signals are supposed to be directed to another licensed amateur or a CQ call, An amateur station can't be airborne so sending a signal isn't a signal to another licensed station or a general CQ call.
[12:56] <Laurenceb_> oh right
[12:56] <Darkside> amateur stations can be airborne
[12:56] <Darkside> just not in the UK
[12:56] <Laurenceb_> thats why I've made a 10mW ISM system
[12:56] <Darkside> so you're aling an airborne station in france obviously
[12:56] <Darkside> or spain
[12:56] <Darkside> or you guys could all just move to australia where we don thave htese silly airborne rules
[12:56] <Laurenceb_> or use license exempt
[12:56] <Darkside> and can use amateur radio in the air for whatever we want
[12:56] <Laurenceb_> theres more than enough link budget
[12:57] <mfa298> Laurenceb_: hence why I suggested lora as a suitable alternative now.
[12:57] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[12:57] <Laurenceb_> it'd be interesting to try it
[12:57] <Laurenceb_> but I'd prefer narrow band FM myself
[12:58] <Laurenceb_> LoRa has poor co-channel rejection
[12:58] <mfa298> I think mattbrejza has already done uploads to a payload with lora
[12:58] <Laurenceb_> yes
[12:58] <mattbrejza> correct
[12:58] <Laurenceb_> I've build a narrow band FM system, but its not been flown due to general lazyness/work
[12:58] <infaddict> noob question. for tree cut downs (i.e. line of sight and short distance) why not use RC stuff like RC planes/cars have?
[12:58] <Laurenceb_> its on my github ... somewhere, feel free to clone :P
[12:59] <eroomde> infaddict: you could!
[12:59] <eroomde> no reason why not
[12:59] <Laurenceb_> thats a nice idea
[12:59] <eroomde> do it
[12:59] <Laurenceb_> or even IR
[12:59] <infaddict> ok thx - i have plenty of RC kit as it was a former hobby
[13:00] <infaddict> could be a side project for me
[13:00] <eroomde> the one downside i think with all the hab info there is now on the wiki and whatever is that people assume there must be really good reason why stuff has, or hasn't, been done
[13:00] <eroomde> but there's so much room here to try new stuff
[13:00] <infaddict> agreed
[13:00] <eroomde> especially now you've got a luanch under your belt (in hard circumstances too)
[13:00] <infaddict> i think its a danger to assume if it hasnt been done its a stupid idea
[13:01] <eroomde> exactly
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[13:01] <eroomde> all we really have is a sort of shown-to-work good baseline for a low risk up-down flight
[13:01] <infaddict> but i'm the kinda person who will ask questions even if they seem stupid. served me well in life so far haha.
[13:01] <Laurenceb_> NBFM stuff https://github.com/Laurenceb/STM32_Launcher/tree/master/Silabs
[13:01] <eroomde> ublox, avr, 50-baud rtty
[13:02] <infaddict> yep and thats a great place to start. but i now realise thats like 1% of whats out there.
[13:02] <eroomde> and that's great for giving people a low-risk path to their first flight
[13:02] <eroomde> but after that, you're in a playground of possibility, really
[13:02] <mfa298> I seem to recall some talk about short range IR / RC for tree cutdown last year
[13:03] <infaddict> i already have servos to move 180 deg via RC so shouldnt too hard to devise something
[13:03] <eroomde> i'd say go for it
[13:03] <infaddict> and speed controllers that do similar
[13:03] <Vaizki> I did discuss it here at one time.. servo pin pull etc
[13:03] <eroomde> a servo pull-pin cutdown would be nice too
[13:03] <eroomde> :)
[13:03] <Laurenceb_> too heavy surely
[13:03] <infaddict> yep so either mechanical (pull pin) or could use speed controller to apply voltage
[13:03] <eroomde> for a cutdown? nah
[13:03] <Laurenceb_> https://ukhas.org.uk/_media/projects:dscn1015.jpg?cache=cache
[13:03] <infaddict> nah these plastic servos are quite light
[13:03] <Laurenceb_> ^nice and light
[13:04] <eroomde> i've got some 3g servos here
[13:04] <infaddict> http://www.rctech.net/forum/attachments/rc-boating/1108445d1378290734-looking-high-torque-waterproof-boat-servos-xq-s4013d.jpg
[13:05] <infaddict> they are the kind thing i have. about 3cm x 3cm x 2cm and fairly light.
[13:05] <eroomde> we made this for a detachment mechanism
[13:05] <infaddict> need to add the RX stuff of course. will dig out the RC bag at weekend and dig around!
[13:05] <eroomde> i am going to go out on a limb and say it's the most serious cutdown ever flown in (amateur) hab
[13:05] <eroomde> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqOyx0Cx4tM
[13:06] <eroomde> the gold this is a pyrotechnic protractor
[13:06] <eroomde> the gold thing*
[13:06] <eroomde> it's basically an m6 screw with 2 wires coming out the back
[13:06] <infaddict> pyro?
[13:06] <eroomde> and when a current is applied a bold shoots forward from the other end witgh a force for about 2.5kN
[13:06] <eroomde> pyro but *contained*
[13:06] <eroomde> so legal
[13:06] <eroomde> they can post them to you in conventional post
[13:07] <eroomde> used on spacecraft because the don't outgass
[13:07] <Vaizki> 20 quid each?
[13:07] <eroomde> so it pushes that bold out and the buckle can then pull free
[13:07] <eroomde> in qty
[13:07] <infaddict> nice
[13:08] <eroomde> so that thing was designed to withstand about 10kN of force (a parachute deploying at mach 0.8) but also then be detacheable later when we wanted
[13:08] <eroomde> the bold it retained by an m2 nyloc nut
[13:08] <eroomde> that acts as a shear pin
[13:08] <eroomde> you can see the hole in the bolt head and housing through which it goes
[13:09] <Ian_> A bit like the hollow key, match heads, nail and string that we used to muck around with as kids. The wire igniter replacing the thump on the ground.
[13:09] <Vaizki> I was envisioning something simpler like http://www.texastimers.com/applications/application_photos/selick/Tbird_rdt_servo.jpg
[13:10] <Vaizki> of course more heavy duty than that :)
[13:10] <mattbrejza> i think you would want to design it so that it stays secure when the servo has no power
[13:10] <mattbrejza> then power and move the servo to cutdown
[13:11] <infaddict> yep Vaizki - that was my vision, servo controlled pull pin
[13:11] <infaddict> yep mattbrejza - you wouldnt want the opposite for sure
[13:12] <infaddict> the 'neutral' servo position would be the pin in place
[13:12] <infaddict> one swipe left on my RC handset and pin comes out
[13:12] <Ian_> Certainly plenty of scope for experimentation, but the simpler the approach is probably the more reliable I guess.
[13:12] <mattbrejza> perhaps have a spring to keep the servo in place when not powered
[13:12] <mattbrejza> then power and move to cutdown
[13:12] <eroomde> this was heavy-weight
[13:12] <eroomde> but i comment pyro-pin-pushers to you as about the cleanest and most reliable way of doing anything
[13:13] <eroomde> (that i've come across)
[13:13] <Ian_> PPP sounds good, pass the safety matches.
[13:13] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BALYOLO - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BALYOLO
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[13:15] <eroomde> you can see a similar idea in this rocket interstage https://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/7316292562/in/album-72157630002319102/
[13:15] <eroomde> that doesn't have the protractor fitted but it goes in the opposite side to the roddy thing
[13:16] <eroomde> and pushes it out
[13:16] <eroomde> so any loop of string you have is then free
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[13:18] <infaddict> of course i'll never land in a tree so don't why i am even discussing this ;-/
[13:18] <adamgreig> in a way having the predictor and tracker network probably stunted a lot of cutdown development
[13:18] <adamgreig> and thus uplink and thus radio stuff
[13:18] <Vaizki> eroomde, is that a metron?
[13:18] <Vaizki> the protractor?
[13:18] <adamgreig> (yes)
[13:19] <eroomde> Vaizki: yes
[13:19] <eroomde> 2006 c2
[13:19] <eroomde> iirc
[13:19] <eroomde> http://www.monetti.net/pdf/en/PRODUCTS_ACTUATORS_GAS_GENERATORS/01/DR%202006%20C2%20EN.pdf
[13:20] <adamgreig> that's the slightly rubbish datasheet
[13:20] <adamgreig> http://www.chemringenergetics.co.uk/~/media/Files/C/Chemring-Energetics-V2/documents/Older%20Versions/ceuk-metron-actuators-4pp.pdf has a better photo at the top :P
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[13:21] <adamgreig> that photo is one metron positioned against the earth bank
[13:21] <Vaizki> must be the Metron Prime model
[13:22] <adamgreig> though you will also note one really crucial (to me) difference between the datasheets
[13:22] <adamgreig> the minimum single firing current in DC vs 10ms pulse
[13:22] <adamgreig> in the first datasheet it's 0.6A vs 0.9A but in the second datasheet it's (alarmingly) 0.6A vs 0.3A
[13:23] <adamgreig> this detail doesn't matter a bit until you're in the middle of a huge desert with only an iridium short burst data modem for contact to the outside world, at 3am, it's pitch black, freezing cold, and your metrons are not firing
[13:23] <adamgreig> and you suddenly remember that yes, bizarrely the minimum fire current for 10ms pulses is substantially lower than the DC current
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[13:23] <adamgreig> so you quickly rewrite some firmware to send a pulse train instead of DC
[13:24] <adamgreig> and bang! bang! bang! bang!
[13:24] <adamgreig> a few seconds and £60 later you're very much relieved (and wake everyone else up)
[13:25] <russss> somehow I am curious about the backstory to this
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[13:26] <adamgreig> https://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/15295401599/in/album-72157648134191299/
[13:26] <russss> ah right
[13:27] <adamgreig> almost had to scrub the whole thing because the stupid metrons weren't firing :P
[13:27] <russss> can you just...call up Chemring and buy these things?
[13:27] <Vaizki> that's what you get for cutting down all those trees in the UK
[13:27] <adamgreig> russss: yea pretty much
[13:27] <adamgreig> they're used as much in fire suppression systems as missile deployment and satellite systems
[13:27] <adamgreig> no transport marking requirements or anything
[13:27] <adamgreig> they're £50/ea in small qty tho
[13:27] <Vaizki> eeps
[13:27] <russss> ouch
[13:28] <eroomde> £25 tho in >50
[13:28] <adamgreig> yea
[13:28] <eroomde> price drop is massive
[13:28] <Vaizki> then again, you might not have to fire it :)
[13:28] <adamgreig> £20 even
[13:28] <russss> a friend works for a chemring subsidiary, I wonder if he gets a staff discount...
[13:28] <Vaizki> upu should stock them ;)
[13:28] <eroomde> basically if you're going to buy 26 you should instead buy 50
[13:28] <adamgreig> think we're going to try and get another batch of 50 soon enough
[13:28] <gonzo_> some places have very odd price breaks
[13:28] <adamgreig> have to bring out the old coin tin
[13:29] <adamgreig> only got a sparse handful left
[13:29] <mattbrejza> russss: roke?
[13:29] <eroomde> we have a few
[13:29] <russss> yeah
[13:29] <eroomde> in a secret stash at work
[13:29] <eroomde> roke manor?
[13:29] <mattbrejza> yea
[13:29] <mattbrejza> i was there over a summer
[13:29] <eroomde> we inhereted a consulting project from them
[13:30] <eroomde> a very wideband amp for something
[13:30] <eroomde> they couldn't make it work
[13:30] <eroomde> but they didn't have a James
[13:30] <eroomde> we have a James
[13:30] <eroomde> so it worked
[13:30] <russss> hah
[13:30] <russss> they seem to do lots of interesting radio stuff, and I suspect I only hear about the less interesting bits
[13:30] <eroomde> yeah the context in which i know them mostly is mil work
[13:31] <eroomde> they make all the super-resolution radio direction finding kits of the mil
[13:31] <russss> my friend worked on the london low emission zone for quite a while, which was probably less exciting
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[14:02] <eroomde> this is a picture from quite an early flight
[14:02] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/nfs6k4m5u5i6xyx/realstack.jpg?dl=0
[14:02] <eroomde> that flight was UKHAS1.5
[14:04] <mattbrejza> is that a banana?
[14:04] <adamgreig> it's for scale
[14:04] <eroomde> yes
[14:04] <adamgreig> :P
[14:05] <mattbrejza> uh huh
[14:05] <eroomde> it was something to do with Science
[14:06] <adamgreig> not as good as space whisky
[14:06] <eroomde> we had spaceport on nova 4
[14:06] <adamgreig> a busy flight
[14:06] <eroomde> six out of 7 thought spaceport was better in a double-blind taste test
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[14:23] <infaddict> for anybody using Gqrx, i've managed to get it to send Bias Tee power to the Airspy. You have to add "bias=1" to the config string in Gqrx settings.
[14:23] <adamgreig> good to know, thanks
[14:24] <infaddict> so can now power my HabAmp without another cable
[14:24] <infaddict> i meant Bias power *from* Airpsy of course
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[14:40] <pe1bia> hoi rob
[14:40] <PA0RPA_> Hoi Joop
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[15:05] <Herman_> !flights
[15:05] <SpacenearUS> 03Herman_: Current flights: 03SP3OSJ 437.7MHz 100/470/7n2 10(fb83), 03RAJ-1 launch 10(0fdb)
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[15:39] <Laurenceb_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c708Rinx6hE
[15:39] <Laurenceb_> need to swap electrolytes for 3d printing
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[16:03] <Laurenceb_> http://gfycat.com/CreepyDiscreteBichonfrise
[16:05] <NigeyS> yo Laurenceb_
[16:05] <Laurenceb_> hi
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[19:14] <Laurenceb_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ph4WYAJSQZQ
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[20:08] <SpeedEvil> http://nerdist.com/this-new-ride-might-send-you-to-another-dimension/ - who was it that was asking about gopro gimbals earlier?
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[20:25] Nick change: anony -> andew
[20:29] <tweetBot> @JoyceGaming: @WerdnaKcep you may be interested in this, very recent attempt https://t.co/rxAwDd4h4Z
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[21:28] <Laurenceb_> http://www.real-shit.com/#/home
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[21:34] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03V1-B_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=V1-B_chase
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[21:38] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03v1-b3_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=v1-b3_chase
[21:38] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03V1-B1_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=V1-B1_chase
[21:39] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03V1-A_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=V1-A_chase
[21:40] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Sergio_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Sergio_chase
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[22:02] <Laurenceb_> eeek V1 attack
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[22:23] <Vaizki> ah ps-46 makes a heart and goes home.. how cute :)
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[00:00] --- Wed Jul 1 2015