highaltitude.log.20150609

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[04:10] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KF7ZFJ-1 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KF7ZFJ-1
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[04:56] <Reb-SM3ULC> SA6BSS-: it's on now
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[07:39] <ok1cdj> gm all
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[07:39] <ok1cdj> please approve CDJ-2 flight id f5b5cc73dbfb9b4b01727f089c6af699 thank you...
[07:40] <daveake> You need to ask in #habhub
[07:41] <Upu> not been tested ok1cdj
[07:41] <Upu> we'll need to see it on the map first pls
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[07:42] <ok1cdj> upu ok..
[07:43] <ok1cdj> tnx
[07:43] <Upu> nps
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[08:49] <eroomde> morning
[08:54] <amell> gday
[08:55] <ok1cdj> hello
[08:55] <amell> reading papers for new job starting tomorrow
[08:55] <eroomde> nice - what are you doing?
[08:55] <amell> ARM - SoC security.
[08:56] <amell> the papers are hard going, getting up to speed :)
[08:57] <eroomde> oh fun
[08:57] <eroomde> fighting off reverse engineerers?
[08:58] <amell> its about secure storage on chip, normal/secure world. used for mobile payments.
[08:59] <amell> dont want to go into more detail here, as this is google indexed...
[09:03] <eroomde> :0
[09:03] <eroomde> :) *
[09:03] <eroomde> understood
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[09:41] <Laurenceb> http://buildandcrash.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/tau-labs-and-cyphy-level-up.html
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[11:00] <j0nnymac> hey folks - what are those massive retractable poles that are used to fish payloads out of trees called?
[11:00] <craag> fibreglass telescopic fishing poles
[11:00] <j0nnymac> brill
[11:00] <j0nnymac> how long are they???
[11:00] <craag> I have a 10m one, I think that's the common longest.
[11:01] <j0nnymac> 10 meters sounds epic!!!
[11:01] <craag> trees come in a lot bigger sizes :/
[11:01] <j0nnymac> eeeep!!!
[11:01] <eroomde> see also bazookas
[11:01] <j0nnymac> looking at wind predictions
[11:01] <j0nnymac> if they guys are ready looks like sat or sun
[11:01] <j0nnymac> friday is also good
[11:02] <eroomde> nice
[11:02] <j0nnymac> but CAA want 72 hours notice for notam
[11:02] <eroomde> got the payload soak-tested?
[11:02] <j0nnymac> so not sure he will give it to us
[11:02] <j0nnymac> oooh no i doubt it - ill put it to the guys
[11:02] <ok1cdj> you can 26m long http://www.spiderbeam.com/index.php?cat=c2_Fiberglass%20Poles.html
[11:02] <j0nnymac> how do you do that :)
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[11:02] <j0nnymac> hang on brb
[11:03] <fsphil> soak test doesn't literally mean plung it underwater btw :)
[11:03] <eroomde> lol
[11:03] <eroomde> that would be an amusing misunderstanding to explain
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[11:04] <_charlie> see I never understand the lure of telescopic rods for antenna poles, as you risk them collapsing on each other. Why not a push to fit pole?
[11:04] <_charlie> At least, that#s what i found when using them for actually fishing XD
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[11:08] <ok1cdj> telescopic mast is great for portable, lightweight and easy transport..
[11:09] <amell> you can also use potato guns
[11:09] <daveake> https://soundcloud.com/laurence-sacha-stant/ears-norfolk-interview
[11:10] <craag> A little bit of tape around the smaller pole just above the joint tends to halt any collapse.
[11:11] <craag> I used mine for a HF dipole arm for several months, with quick deliberate collapse when the landlord was coming by!
[11:12] <amell> daveake: what did they say? :)
[11:12] <daveake> Well I posted the link for people to listen
[11:13] <Geoff-G8DHE> listening to it now
[11:13] <daveake> short version - called coastguard for advice, who called back and said it could be rescued as a training exercise
[11:13] <amell> great
[11:13] <daveake> same thing via twitter (posted for the pic :-) ) https://twitter.com/JamesRLynn/status/608218525791088640
[11:14] <amell> is that alan partridge ? :)
[11:15] <Geoff-G8DHE> Makes sense, espcially as they passed it to the other boat for bringing ashore!
[11:17] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ZS5LT-9_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ZS5LT-9_chase
[11:17] <russss> haha
[11:21] <russss> well that was very nice of them
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[11:29] <j0nnymac> back in action
[11:29] <amell> tried potato gun for hab recovery? People have used for quadcopter recovery
[11:30] <j0nnymac> potato gun for recovery?
[11:30] <j0nnymac> hmm cheaper than the spiderbeam!
[11:31] <amell> yep. large dia waste pipe. use a bung with a rope attached. you fire it at the HAB string and pull it down,
[11:31] <j0nnymac> wow
[11:31] <j0nnymac> sounds very batman grapple gun
[11:32] <russss> potato guns are dubiously legal however. Also difficult to aim.
[11:32] <amell> good point, may not be legal in the UK. they are ok in the US.
[11:32] <j0nnymac> <wonders how the team will feel if i produce a firearm at 430am in the middle of the new forest>
[11:33] <daveake> Telescopic pole + hook or knife works well
[11:33] <russss> iirc there is a legal muzzle energy restriction which basically makes all potato guns illegal, as your projectile is quite massive
[11:33] <amell> yes, pole is the obvious answer, im just thinking about very high trees.
[11:34] <cm13g09> russss: in the UK, yes... there's a whole lot of fun and games....
[11:34] <russss> I had to cancel a potato gun competition at EMF a few years ago because of it
[11:34] <russss> sadly
[11:34] <cm13g09> and somebody decided to set the limits in foot/pounds....
[11:34] <cm13g09> (why couldn't somebody use sane limits!)
[11:35] <amell> some examples at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPPPy3WyPTU
[11:35] <amell> surprisingly powerful if it takes chunks out of tree trunks!
[11:35] <gonzo_> what was the limit?
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[11:36] <gonzo_> if only useing compressed air, it would be <12ft/lb
[11:36] <j0nnymac> hook and pole - sounds like a winner
[11:37] <gonzo_> even your average catapult is boulbe that
[11:37] <gonzo_> double
[11:37] <amell> certainly a winner, if its long enough
[11:37] <j0nnymac> yeah - 10mtr is about 30quid
[11:37] <j0nnymac> but i see they range up to the hundreds
[11:37] <cm13g09> gonzo_: absolutely spot on...
[11:38] <gonzo_> there is a big one out sid ehere at the mo. With a silly bird shaped kite on the end
[11:38] <gonzo_> it's sup[posed to fighten sea gulls away, but all it doews at the mo is dive bomb the people in smokers corner
[11:38] <gonzo_> result!
[11:39] <amell> a vortex cannon maybe helpful for hab recovery
[11:40] <amell> given that it doesnt eject a projectile, should be legal...
[11:41] <russss> heh
[11:43] <gonzo_> a bow saw
[11:45] <j0nnymac> now thats an approach i hadnt considered
[11:45] <j0nnymac> :)
[11:45] <russss> gonzo_: oh you're right, the energy restriction only applies to air guns, the moment you start exploding anything it's a firearm regardless
[11:45] <amell> how does a vortex cannon fit in the restriction?
[11:46] <russss> I don't think it counts if it's not firing anything
[11:46] <daveake> I've had to use pretty much all of my (considerable) weight to extract a payload from a tree. Air isn't going to work in most cases.
[11:46] <j0nnymac> eroomde: soak test you say?
[11:46] <amell> its firing a vortex with substantial energy
[11:46] <russss> at least until you're firing enough of a vortex that it would be lethal, in which case you've basically got a directed-energy bomb
[11:46] <amell> daveake: eat more pies? :)
[11:47] <daveake> Usually the chute is the problem, and to remove the payload you need to either get the chute out of the tree without snagging, or cut the line
[11:47] <russss> (hello GCHQ)
[11:47] <j0nnymac> craag: just looking at reviews - do they tend to break in wind?
[11:47] <craag> Not in my experience, had mine bent over >90 degrees in the wind
[11:48] <craag> (+ weight on the end)
[11:49] <j0nnymac> wowser
[11:49] <j0nnymac> ok - getting one from amazing
[11:49] <j0nnymac> amazon
[11:49] <j0nnymac> even
[11:50] <chris_99> I'm just wondering, i'm just registering for an account with BOC to get H2, i assume you don't need any licence or whatnot to buy it?
[11:50] <daveake> No, just ask for an account
[11:50] <chris_99> awesome
[11:50] <daveake> Call them or do it at the local depot or agent
[11:51] <chris_99> yeah i've found a local place, but they said i need a BOC accnt to buy, so just sorting that out
[11:51] <daveake> They /should/ have the forms
[11:51] <chris_99> ah, i'm just doing it via BOCs website
[11:52] <russss> BOC are a faff
[11:52] <daveake> When you order, you want a 54K (steel cylinder) or 54-G20 (Genie)
[11:53] <chris_99> oh, do you know what size that is in water litres per chance? the steel one i mean
[11:53] <gonzo_> when you order gas, make sure to ask for a monthly bottle hire. Or they automatically take a year's hire up front
[11:53] <gonzo_> In fact they do, even when you ask for monthly
[11:53] <daveake> oh yeah that's always fun
[11:53] <chris_99> i was wondering if i could just buy a cylinder outright
[11:53] <gonzo_> not from boc
[11:53] <daveake> dunno I've not asked
[11:54] <daveake> ok
[11:54] <russss> heh, try buying cryogenic gases from them, it's 10x worse
[11:54] <chris_99> haha
[11:54] <russss> BOC won't fill anything which isn't theirs
[11:54] <amell> the cavendish laboratory get liquid helium in a lorry from BOC. ridiculously cheap helium
[11:54] <russss> (that's actually the case with all pressurised gas suppliers I think, but BOC's cylinder hire is pricey)
[11:54] <amell> they park the trailer outside, plumb it in, and leave it there.
[11:57] <russss> BOC are only cost-effective for cryogenic stuff if you use loads of it
[11:57] <russss> you have to buy or rent their tanks
[11:59] <_charlie> j0nnymac - avoid roach/carp/margin poles - these will be much stiffer than other types of pole and would not bend quite so easily, if that is what you're fter
[11:59] <chris_99> "BOC only supply our cylinders on a rental basis, enabling us to maintain cylinders with regular testing and ensure they are safe and fit for use." alas :(
[11:59] <chris_99> are there any other suppliers of H2 that you don't have to do rental with?
[11:59] <russss> chris_99: I don't think you'll find a supplier who'll fill your own tank.
[11:59] <_charlie> ikr, renting tanks is so annoying
[11:59] <russss> it's due to the laws regulating pressure vessels
[11:59] <amell> chris_99: you can generate H2 in your kitchen&
[12:00] <chris_99> i've got my own CO2/nitrogen tanks, but i guess that's a bit different
[12:00] <russss> they have to be visually inspected by a competent person every time they're refilled, and exhaustively tested every x years
[12:00] <amell> i have a pub gas cylinder in the garage for welding. its not rented, but i just send it back and get a new one free.
[12:00] <russss> you might be able to find somewhere who doesn't charge as extortionate rental though
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[12:01] <russss> beer gas is usually free rental, but the cylinder is still owned by the supplier
[12:01] <chris_99> nah, i bought the beer gas cylinder
[12:01] <chris_99> outright
[12:02] <eroomde> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQCgs6Upu_E
[12:02] <eroomde> precursor work
[12:02] <_charlie> Reminds me somewhat of the Silbervogel
[12:05] <amell> interesting video
[12:07] <amell> if they can simulate on land, why would it fail in the air?
[12:08] <russss> well it did fail in that test
[12:08] <russss> but also, that test is not hypersonic, and it didn't test opening
[12:08] <amell> yes, so surely they would test until it never fails
[12:09] <amell> ok. so the thing that is difficult to test is the high mach opening.
[12:09] <russss> presumably the opening is the hardest part to simulate as well
[12:09] <_charlie> difference in air pressure too
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[12:11] <eroomde> all correct
[12:12] <eroomde> the openeing is the hardest part as that's when the forces are highest
[12:12] <eroomde> the the force profile of the opening is strongly a characteristic of ambient pressure and mach number
[12:12] <eroomde> for a given dynamic pressure
[12:13] <fsphil> the forces on the chute must be constantly shifting at it opens
[12:13] <fsphil> that's gotta be a huge pain to simulate
[12:14] <eroomde> yep
[12:16] <j0nnymac> cheers _charlie
[12:21] <SpeedEvil> chris_99: As a random point, natural gas has only half the lift of hydrogen, but is a pound a cubic meter from a tap in the kitchen.
[12:22] <chris_99> interesting SpeedEvil, however, wouldn't it be difficult to compress it into a cylinder
[12:22] <chris_99> unless you launched from your house
[12:23] <russss> natural gas has a much lower liquefaction pressure than hydrogen
[12:23] <SpeedEvil> chris_99: sure.
[12:23] <SpeedEvil> I don't think hydrogen liquifies above ~40K
[12:24] <SpeedEvil> but yes, that too
[12:24] <SpeedEvil> And I was meaning for occasions you could launch from home primarily
[12:25] Action: amell has visions of chris_99 filling his HAB over the cooker
[12:25] <chris_99> haha
[12:28] <fsphil> dinner *and* a hab launch. result
[12:29] <eroomde> ?
[12:29] <eroomde> oh i see
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[12:33] <j0nnymac> oooh eroomde the guys have updated the project page with nodered screenshots
[12:33] <j0nnymac> let me know if you want anymore up there
[12:33] <eroomde> link me up?
[12:33] <gonzo_> as kids we would fill swink bin libers with horth sea gass and float them out of the window. Usually with a burniug wick
[12:33] <j0nnymac> aye - 1 sec
[12:34] <j0nnymac> https://bluemiximp1.wordpress.com/project/
[12:34] <fsphil> gonzo_: seen some video of people doing similar with H2 and oxygen
[12:34] <gonzo_> swing bin liners
[12:34] <eroomde> gonzo_: i believe porterhouse blue had a similar premise
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> I thought that was about dieting.
[12:36] <eroomde> not as far as i know
[12:37] <gonzo_> never actually got around to readoing that one.
[12:38] <gonzo_> some of the kids used burning bog roll as the wic, but didn't always make it to launch, and an amount of singing happened
[12:39] <gonzo_> I used nitrated string, with a gunpowder flare at the end. Meant you got a reasonable altitude
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[13:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VORTEX1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VORTEX1
[13:15] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CALLSIGN123_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=CALLSIGN123_chase
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[13:30] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03JACKAL5 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=JACKAL5
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[14:37] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[15:36] <amell> just reading that page. theres a lora board for pisky?
[15:38] <daveake> what page ?
[15:40] <amell> https://bluemiximp1.wordpress.com/project/
[15:41] <daveake> Dunno what they're doing. We do have a board and a few have been sent out but AFAIK they don't have one.
[15:42] <amell> oh right. thought there was a new all in one solution
[15:42] <daveake> No
[15:43] <craag> Well they're launching this weekend I believe..
[15:43] <daveake> Our board is this http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=1719
[15:43] <amell> oh cool. i had missed that
[15:43] <daveake> Not on sale yet, but it's trivial to make one by hand, and the software is all on github
[15:44] <amell> btw is there a standard lora frequency emerging yet? so i can just leave a listener running all the time
[15:45] <craag> I think people are still playing with datarates
[15:45] <craag> So you'd have to configure anyway
[15:45] <fsphil> I'd like a channel for announcements
[15:45] <fsphil> "I'm on xxx MHz with these parameters"
[15:45] <daveake> For there to be a single frequency we'd have to use time slots to avoid conflicts
[15:45] <craag> fsphil: I like it!
[15:45] <fsphil> radio channel*
[15:46] <amell> well, if lora is frequency agile, we could have one freq to announce
[15:46] <daveake> Well we have an announcement system that dl-fldigi uses
[15:46] <daveake> just needs lora parameters added
[15:46] <amell> im thinking standalone no internet connection no dl-fldigi
[15:46] <craag> I assume fsphil means OTA
[15:46] <fsphil> yea
[15:47] <daveake> Well you could have a calling channel yes
[15:47] <Reb-SM3ULC> daveake: like AIS & ADSB that use location based slots? :)
[15:47] <fsphil> every few minutes announce itself on a common channel/mode
[15:47] <amell> if im driving down the motorway, i would love it if my lora tracker flashed lights and told me there was a hab
[15:47] <daveake> not a bad idea fsphil
[15:47] <fsphil> a radio could sit an listen on that, and change channel for a while
[15:47] <fsphil> or if it has multiple modules it can keep listening for more
[15:47] <daveake> Reb-SM3ULC my tracker code does have a TDM mode using the GPS for timing
[15:48] <Reb-SM3ULC> daveake: STDMA was the thing i had on my mind
[15:48] <daveake> Not flown yet but I've had a few nodes running in ground tests
[15:48] <daveake> includes repeaters, so (for example) a nearby balloon can relay to a far one
[15:48] <amell> be cool if there was a common standard for announcing/frequencies. so if there was something up handhelds would track it automatically
[15:49] <amell> i am using lora in rockets, so it would be awesome if G8KNN picked up my rocket on every launch, but I fear every few minutes might take too long.
[15:49] <amell> seeing as the rocket would have landed by then
[15:49] <craag> fsphil has a rather good record when it comes to designing OTA standards.. *poke*
[15:49] <fsphil> hah
[15:50] <craag> just have a few more bytes for the callsign this time yeah ;)
[15:50] <_charlie> stop describing my final year project O.o
[15:50] <craag> haha seriously _charlie ?
[15:50] <craag> how much can you tell us?
[15:50] <_charlie> yeah
[15:51] <_charlie> well, I've only really sat down with my project supervisor once, and we outlined a system similar to above as one balloon related option
[15:51] <_charlie> Not sure how much i can say, as uni gets some copyright over work done or whatever
[15:51] <amell> daveake: you just checked in some new code. Q: does your handheld have GPS module attached?
[15:52] <craag> Ah right
[15:52] <_charlie> But we thought it would be cool to have balloons relay information to each other to reach a groundstation, so you could know where a balloon is over Siberia from a location in the UK
[15:52] <_charlie> for example
[15:52] <daveake> amell Yes
[15:52] <craag> ah balloons relaying information would be a large step further
[15:53] <daveake> I should fly that
[15:53] <daveake> HAB-marda
[15:53] <fsphil> it would be fun if I could send a message to someone in germany, relayed via balloon over cambridge
[15:53] <daveake> s/cambridge/ross/
[15:53] <daveake> tbh not close enough to Germany
[15:54] <fsphil> yea cambridge is right at my rx limit
[15:54] <_charlie> fsphil, yeah it wouldn't be inconceiveable to do that as a next step
[15:54] <fsphil> and I think people in germany have received flights from there before?
[15:54] <daveake> I was thinking you would launch a balloon first and relay via that
[15:54] <_charlie> But just to get a network of balloons is a serious project to do in a year
[15:54] <fsphil> ooh
[15:54] <garymortimer> Sort of like Goolge Loon then
[15:54] <_charlie> yep
[15:54] <fsphil> me > ni balloon > ross balloon > ...
[15:54] <Reb-SM3ULC> _charlie: well, you have a bunch of ad-hoc protocol already implemented
[15:54] <daveake> exactly
[15:55] <_charlie> indeed reb
[15:55] <daveake> Like I said I have the code sat here ready
[15:55] <daveake> pi and arduino
[15:56] <daveake> It has to be confifured what which payload repeats which others
[15:56] <daveake> ^ plz fix sentence
[15:56] <Laurenceb> you should port this to pi
[15:56] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TempleOS#History
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[15:56] <fsphil> daveake: all 70cm?
[15:57] <christop_> consequently just placed order for some bits from Hab Supplies to start playing again with Lora
[15:57] <_charlie> for an OS inspired by The Big Guy, it didnt catch on :P
[15:57] <daveake> fsphil: The code doesn't care
[15:58] <Reb-SM3ULC> fsphil: but id-channel is a good idea, rsid+qrv-fq or something,
[15:58] <amell> daveake: im not following this code. as far as i can tell you have your gps connected to the main uart, but all the debug messages are printed there.
[15:58] <daveake> What I tested was on 434, can't remember the BW but > 25kHz, using 10% DC
[15:58] <daveake> amell yes that works
[15:58] <fsphil> I'm just wondering what would work better for air to air
[15:59] <amell> ok. i agree it works, but how are you debugging it without GPS connected?
[15:59] <fsphil> the noise floor on 869mhz would be better. and there's more power availabie
[15:59] <fsphil> speeling fail
[15:59] <daveake> erm, you can have multiple listeners on RS232
[15:59] <daveake> well TTL serial in this case
[15:59] <amell> really? oooh. i didnt think the arduino IDE allowed that.
[16:00] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[16:00] <daveake> IDE isn't anything to do with it
[16:00] <amell> i meant the serial monitor
[16:00] <daveake> Anyway I probably didn't connect Arduino Tx to the GPS anyway
[16:00] <daveake> Don't need flight mode for a handheld ...
[16:00] <daveake> Serial monitor doesn't care either
[16:01] <fsphil> it's a hardware thing
[16:01] <daveake> It just opens the port and sees the debug
[16:01] <amell> ok. yes, so if youre not sending anything to GPS then that would work.
[16:01] <daveake> You can still send to the GPS
[16:01] <fsphil> it's annoying but it works
[16:01] <daveake> Just try to avoid "$" in your debug messages :)
[16:01] <craag> If you need to configure flight mode on handheld gps - you also need an o2 tank :P
[16:02] <amell> right. i will have to have a play with that.
[16:02] <amell> my rocket tracker is using 868 lora. by any chance do you think i can use it at 434? Im not sure if the limitation is hardware.
[16:03] <daveake> So thanks fsphil, now I have to add this calling channel code to my tracker source (pi and avr), gateway source and handheld source. Thanks a bunch :p
[16:03] <fsphil> welcome :)
[16:03] <amell> should there be a calling channel for 434 and 868&
[16:03] <daveake> You won't get much range using a 434 lora device for 868, or vice versa
[16:03] <fsphil> yea it'll need to be one for each band
[16:04] <daveake> yeah, one of the reasons we put 2 loras on the pi board
[16:04] <amell> not sure which way to jump. 434 or 868& when i did it originally most people seemed to be doing lora on 868
[16:04] <amell> but now seems more 434
[16:04] <daveake> Anyway the devices cost peanuts (for hab it's peanuts anyway)
[16:06] <amell> upu doesnt seem to sell the 868 any more.
[16:06] <craag> 434 will get you rx-ed by the websdr receiver ;)
[16:07] <daveake> Most HABbers have 434 aerials but don't have 868 aerials, so 434 will probably win
[16:07] <amell> bah, anyone want a pair of used 868 lora modules with gobs of solder? :(
[16:08] <fsphil> 434.650 for calling channel. nobody will notice
[16:08] <amell> do we need authentication? <cackles>
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[16:09] Action: amell announces 50 habs a minute
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[16:10] <craag> ubseds6 was causing qrm to gb2rs on 434.600 at the weekend
[16:11] <fsphil> you'd have to do it from a balloon to cause any kind of trouble
[16:12] <gonzo_nb> i saw maplin selling hhelds with a lpd 434 set of chans a while ago
[16:12] <amell> gonzo_nb: really? SSB by any chance?
[16:12] <gonzo_nb> so anyone could legally sit on a repeater input, chatting
[16:13] <gonzo_nb> not many ssb handhelds of any type around
[16:13] <gonzo_nb> there were 446meg and lpd 434
[16:14] <amell> the other thing i was thinking about re lora, was encoding the signal more efficiently instead of the current rtty sentence construction
[16:15] <amell> minimise duty cycle.
[16:15] <amell> if there can be a common standard for doing so.
[16:15] <amell> encoding the data not signal.
[16:16] <Lunar_Lander> hi craag
[16:16] <fsphil> compressed ukhas string
[16:16] <fsphil> still nice to see the string appearing to quickly check everything is ko
[16:16] <fsphil> ok*
[16:16] <amell> yeah. GPS in base 60 or whatever it was that leo came up with
[16:17] <craag> Yeah I think mattbrejza had some thoughts for binary stuff
[16:17] <craag> habpack
[16:17] <fsphil> or msgpack
[16:17] <Lunar_Lander> compressed?
[16:17] <fsphil> yea, like gzip or something
[16:17] <fsphil> but better tuned for strings of numbers and commas
[16:17] <Lunar_Lander> hm
[16:17] <craag> habpack is msgpack, but with a standard data strcuture
[16:17] <amell> not sure you need to compress it. just structure it better
[16:17] <Lunar_Lander> is that like sending a zip file then?
[16:18] <amell> compressing it makes it harder to recover the message.
[16:18] <gonzo_nb> you can do binary lat/lon in 8bytes
[16:18] <fsphil> amell: lora is packet based. you either get the packet or you don't iirc
[16:18] <amell> but you could get half assed packets?
[16:18] <fsphil> not sure if it would return packets with crc errors
[16:19] <amell> afk dog walk. l8r
[16:19] <craag> https://github.com/suspaceflight/lora-tracker/blob/master/firmware-tracker/main.c#L822-L861
[16:19] <amell> that looks much better
[16:20] <craag> fsphil: it'll give you crc errored packets, then you check the irq flag to find out.
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[16:20] <fsphil> ah
[16:20] <fsphil> that could be useful
[16:20] <fsphil> if you wanted to add more FEC
[16:21] <fsphil> bbl, heading home
[16:22] <craag> you can't do anything about header/sync errors though
[16:26] <Lunar_Lander> oh
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[16:38] <fsphil> yea normal enough
[16:38] <fsphil> I kinda brute forced it in ssdv
[16:39] <fsphil> but those are small packets and usually slow data rates
[16:42] <chris_99> it is legal to use multiple transmitters isn't it, in the UK on a ballon?
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[16:48] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BelNanoSat1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BelNanoSat1
[16:50] <infaddict> silly q. one of the best places of high ground to test my payload is home to a 500ft TV mast. I believe it only TX's analogue/digi radio and digi TV all of which is outside my 433Mhz range. Could this mast cause my payload problems?
[16:57] Action: infaddict gets his coat
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[17:03] <selat> Hi all! What is the best way of separating binary packets with main telemetry and small text packets for habhub? (all packets are sent via one tranciever)
[17:03] <selat> I thought about finishing each binary packet with "\r\n" sequence...
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[17:11] <Ian_> Trying to work AR from such a site, where there is also likely to be paging eceivers etc can be a nightmare. Desensing the receiver big time. You would need a brick wall filter in your rx front end
[17:12] <Ian_> Trying to receive HAB power levels at such a location would be fraught . . . to say the least
[17:12] <Ian_> I guess you needed your coat :)
[17:13] <Ian_> Repeaters use large cavity filters for just that reason, to keep the close and not so close big signals out of their systems.
[17:15] <fsphil> selat: I put \n\n after my ssdv packets
[17:15] <fsphil> it's not required but it looks nicer :)
[17:18] <infaddict> hey Ian_ thanks for answers. just to be clear, TX would be from this site, receiving many miles away.
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[17:18] <infaddict> i can find another location, just this one is the best (hence why they built a huge TV mast)
[17:19] <infaddict> looks like its outputting 100kW
[17:19] <infaddict> http://www.aerialsandtv.com/pontoppiketx.html
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[17:24] <selat> fsphil: at what speed you send ssdv packets?
[17:24] <fsphil> normally 300 or 600 baud
[17:24] <selat> I just realised that habduino's default 434 Mhz transciever is incredibly slow
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[17:25] <selat> And what's the transciever power?
[17:25] <fsphil> we're limited to 10mw in the uk
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[17:30] <Ian_> Only potential problem would be if large signals were to somehow get into your tx, but probably very unlikely. All the best spots are staked out by radio facilities already :(
[17:30] <selat> Does anybody know good article that explains correlation between transceiver power/baud rate/effective range ?
[17:31] <Ian_> Double the baud rate, half the range,. quadruple the power, double the range. Life is a trade off
[17:32] <chris_99> Upu, do you not sell the LMT2?
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[17:38] <Ian_> The NTX2B-AF should give you what you want and perhaps the MTX2 smaller and with four pre-tuned channels http://www.featureshoot.com/2015/05/astonishing-time-lapse-captures-the-development-of-baby-honeybees/
[17:39] <Ian_> Sorry wrong link http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=71_63&product_id=106
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[17:57] <Upu> hey chris_99
[17:57] <Upu> I used to sell it but its been superceeded by the MTX2
[17:57] <Upu> do you have a design that uses it ?
[17:59] <chris_99> Upu, oh cheers, not yet no, i didn't realise it had been superseeded, was just looking at the guides on the wiki, i don't think they mention the MTX2 heh
[17:59] <Upu> which guide references the MTX2 ?
[17:59] <Upu> oh the radio ones ?
[17:59] <Upu> oh yeah
[17:59] <Upu> I'll fix that
[17:59] <chris_99> https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:radio_modules
[18:01] <Upu> https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:radio_modules
[18:01] <Upu> added them will fix all the links and stuff shortly
[18:02] <Upu> MTX2 is just a NTX2B inside
[18:02] <chris_99> oh
[18:02] <Upu> if you're working on veroboard use the NTX2B if you're making your own PCB use the MTX2B
[18:02] <Upu> they split the NTX2B PCB in 2 and stack it for the MTX2
[18:02] <Upu> M is for Myk the chap who designed it
[18:02] <Upu> now you know
[18:03] <chris_99> ah heh
[18:04] <chris_99> so is the temp stability of the MTX2 as good as the LMT2 which says excellent on the wiki
[18:04] <Upu> yes both the MTX2 and the NTX2B now use TCXO's
[18:04] <Upu> so are very stable
[18:05] <chris_99> oh neat, are the NTX2 ones just standard crystals
[18:06] <Upu> yeah the original NTX2 drifted a little
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[18:06] <Upu> not as much as the RFM22B but enough
[18:07] <Upu> I'll have a good look through that page this week and update everything
[18:08] <chris_99> can i also ask you about http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=59_64 i'm thinking of ordering some chips soon, is there any particular module you'd recommend on there? (i'm looking to create a PCB)
[18:09] <Upu> 8Q
[18:09] <Upu> unless you are running at 3.3V
[18:09] <Upu> in which case the 8C
[18:09] <chris_99> oh yeah i will be on 3.3
[18:09] <Upu> M8Q then
[18:11] <chris_99> okey dokey, cheers
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[18:17] <stuartlynn> Hi everyone. I am new here but I have worked with the Adler Planetariums Far Horizons Balloon program and have just started working for the geospatial data visualization company CartoDB. I am currently looking in to producing a mass visualization of as many high altitude ballon launches as I can and I know you guys have a lot of telemetry for flights
[18:17] <Upu> yup
[18:18] <Upu> what are you after ?
[18:18] <stuartlynn> the idea would be to make something similar to this : https://cartodb.com/gallery/alcatraz-escapees/ or this https://cartodb.com/case-studies/flights-over-queens/
[18:18] <Upu> raw data ?
[18:18] <Upu> best join #habhub and ask on there
[18:18] <stuartlynn> basically I was wondering if you had some way to access the couchDB directly or if there is a way to get a bulk download of the telemetry data for all the flights
[18:18] <stuartlynn> yeah
[18:18] <stuartlynn> ok
[18:18] <stuartlynn> thanks for the pointer :-)
[18:19] <Upu> nps you may have to wait for a short while for a response
[18:19] <stuartlynn> Not a problem! Thanks again
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[18:54] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VAYU-NTX - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VAYU-NTX
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[19:55] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
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[20:01] <_charlie> Discussion question: If money was no object would you rather a full sized super pressure balloon, or a rocket which could get to 100km + (no orbit)?
[20:01] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BWELLS - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BWELLS
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[20:08] <Laurenceb_> http://hackaday.com/2015/06/09/the-greatest-thing-since-toasted-sliced-bread/
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[20:26] <chris_99> heh, i love Furze
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[20:29] <_charlie> have you seen mikeselectricstuff's latest video?
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[20:34] Nick change: Kryczek_ -> Kryczek
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[20:50] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DL4MDW-12 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL4MDW-12
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[20:52] <DL7AD> evning
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[20:56] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DL4MDW-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL4MDW-11
[20:58] <Lunar_Lander> hi DL7AD
[20:59] <DL7AD> currently testing a new series of aprs trackers: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwzVllHCGu5FSEtaRjhBV0ZHUnM&authuser=0
[20:59] <DL7AD> hi Lunar
[20:59] <DL7AD> DL7AD-11 DL7AD-12 DL7AD-13 DL7AD-14 DL4MDW-11 and DL4MDW-12
[21:00] <DL7AD> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwzVllHCGu5FWEI5X2ZHYkFoVXc&authuser=0
[21:04] <Vaizki> both links want me to sign in
[21:04] <Lunar_Lander> strange
[21:04] <Lunar_Lander> I can see them
[21:05] <pc1pcl> work for me without any active logging in.
[21:05] <Dread> ya it is
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[21:18] <DL7AD> Vaizki: :( sry
[21:20] <DL7AD> Vaizki: i can access even when logged out
[21:20] <SA6BSS> yeah me to
[21:20] <Vaizki> well I see them when I logged in
[21:21] <_charlie> DL7AD what battery connectors are those?
[21:21] <SA6BSS> nice work there DL7AD, !
[21:21] <DL7AD> SA6BSS: thanks..... _charlie the test pad at the side?
[21:21] <DL7AD> the test and programming pins can be cut off
[21:22] <_charlie> I mean in image 0258
[21:22] <DL7AD> ah....
[21:22] <Upu> Keystone
[21:22] <DL7AD> there are no connectors. just pads on the other side
[21:23] <_charlie> oh you soldered pieces of copper braid
[21:23] <_charlie> Did they solder to the batteries easily?
[21:23] <DL7AD> no boost regulator is used on this pcb. the battery voltage is directly fed into the components
[21:23] <DL7AD> _charlie: yeah no problem with soldering
[21:24] <_charlie> okay nice one, will try that when i get my pcbs
[21:24] <_charlie> awesome job
[21:25] <DL7AD> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/DL7AD/pecanpico6/master/PecanPico6_sch.png
[21:27] <DL7AD> http://aprs.fi/#!mt=roadmap&z=19&call=a%2FDL7AD-11%2Ca%2FDL4MDW-11%2Ca%2FDL4MDW-12%2Ca%2FDL7AD-12%2Ca%2FDL7AD-13&timerange=3600&tail=3600
[21:28] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC9UKT-7 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC9UKT-7
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[21:30] <_charlie> when do you plan to launch
[21:33] <DL7AD> _charlie: next saturday there will be launched DK0TU which is already running transmitting SSDV and position at 600 baud. and one of these.....
[21:33] <_charlie> very nice
[21:33] <DL7AD> and another will be launched on the same day (solar floater)
[21:34] <_charlie> is that a qualtex?
[21:34] <DL7AD> and another two or three balloons will be launched on 21st/22nd aprs+ssdv (solar balloons)
[21:34] <DL7AD> _charlie: ehm yes we will use qualatex
[21:35] <_charlie> cool
[21:36] <DL7AD> so many many balloons the next two weeks
[21:37] <_charlie> yeah
[21:37] <_charlie> when I get my gps modules I hope to be launching two a day, every other day
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[21:45] <amell> are these in the calendar?
[21:45] <amell> im in munich next week, wondered if there were likely to be any going over.
[21:45] <DL7AD> amell: not so far
[21:46] <DL7AD> _charlie: i've got 7 from upu and already used them all
[21:46] <DL7AD> :D
[21:46] <amell> is there a discount code for the store at the moment?
[21:52] <DL7AD> no idea i forgot it the last time
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[21:54] <_charlie> DL7AD, so that's where his stock went :D
[21:56] <DL7AD> _charlie: exactly.... the last 7 ones :D
[21:56] <craag> _charlie: 2 a day every other day is a lot :) what kind of balloon?
[21:57] <_charlie> qualtex
[21:57] <craag> ah ok, attempting float?
[21:57] <_charlie> yeah, I want to do incremental improvements
[21:57] <_charlie> so like see if painting a board black will help noticeably or not
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[21:57] <_charlie> if stripping the aluminium will help noticeable or not
[21:57] <craag> Ah cool, got a board ready?
[21:57] <_charlie> Yep, sent off to pcbpool
[21:58] <craag> nice, where are you launching from?
[21:58] <_charlie> uni
[21:58] <_charlie> nottingham
[21:58] <_charlie> Got some nice big fields :D
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[21:58] <craag> :)
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[21:58] <_charlie> And I have a ton of helium left over from the research I'll be doing
[21:59] <craag> Ah I see
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[22:00] <craag> Good luck! Richard has already set the bar high for this season...
[22:00] <DL7AD> is there a difference between MAX8C and Q?
[22:00] <craag> DL7AD: Voltage
[22:01] <craag> The 3.3V only version has a tcxo, the 1.8-3.3V uses a normal xo
[22:01] <DL7AD> okay.... so is there a reason to use the ublox module with the less voltage range? craag ?
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> oh dear
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> you knew it was coming
[22:01] <Vaizki> if your battery voltage is less than 3.3V...
[22:01] <craag> tcxo makes it easier to get/hold lock
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZSZT5plA4a4
[22:02] <craag> especially in cold I'd assume
[22:02] <_charlie> yeah
[22:02] <_charlie> Im interested in spraying one board matt black, see it if helps it stay a little warmer
[22:02] <Vaizki> Laurenceb_: umm is that one of those floating globe thingys acting as a frictionless bearing for emdrive?
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[22:04] <_charlie> ccthanks craag, yeah some great balloon already this year
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[22:04] <Lunar_Lander> good night
[22:05] <craag> I've got a southampton uni lora tracker pcb on my desk that I'm planning to float when I get round to assembling it
[22:05] <craag> ng Lunar_Lander
[22:05] <craag> *gn
[22:05] <Laurenceb_> yes
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[22:05] <_charlie> Whats lora?
[22:05] <Laurenceb_> radio protocol
[22:05] <_charlie> for?
[22:05] <Laurenceb_> radio stuff...
[22:06] <Laurenceb_> google it
[22:06] <craag> It's an ism module protocol that can achieve enough range to be useful for habs
[22:06] <Laurenceb_> yes
[22:06] <_charlie> Or could engage in meaningful conversation with human beings :)
[22:06] <Laurenceb_> but its overhyped imo
[22:06] <_charlie> neat craag, will look into it
[22:07] <craag> Laurenceb_: It's fantastic for doing event launches - no messing about with fldigi and stuff
[22:07] <craag> I know you've got your fsk work that matches it?
[22:07] <Laurenceb_> yes
[22:07] <_charlie> I'll discuss it with my supervisor, he does stuff with comms folk
[22:07] <Laurenceb_> I get 200bps versus 18bps, with 5dB penalty
[22:08] <craag> Laurenceb_: Needs a hab flight to prove it ofc ;)
[22:08] <_charlie> ayy :D
[22:08] <_charlie> 5db is a lot
[22:09] <Laurenceb_> hardly
[22:09] <craag> Last chase we did oop norf, we had one road with a lot of trees, rtty fast faded and barely decoded, lora didn't seem to notice (yay for fec) :)
[22:09] <Laurenceb_> not when you have 160dB link budget
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[22:11] <_charlie> i got told off in a lab for saying 5db is nothing
[22:11] <Laurenceb_> lol
[22:11] <_charlie> "we want every db we get, thank you"
[22:12] <Laurenceb_> when you are only doing HAB, its not a problem
[22:12] <craag> 5dB on a radio link where one end is swinging around under a balloon *is* nothing
[22:12] <Laurenceb_> if you wanted to run the same system to geostationary its be trickier
[22:12] <Laurenceb_> *it would be
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[22:12] <_charlie> :P
[22:12] <Laurenceb_> my 200bps system would do leo easily
[22:12] <_charlie> proof is in the pudding as they say :?
[22:13] <craag> leo with how much rf erp Laurenceb_ ?
[22:14] <_charlie> my plasma antennas could be used in leo :3
[22:14] <craag> lol im currently trying to teach our cubesat engineers what a dipole is..
[22:16] <Laurenceb_> 10mw
[22:16] <Laurenceb_> dipole to dipole
[22:16] <Laurenceb_> at 434mhz
[22:16] <craag> heh ok, so ~ -150dB sensitivity?
[22:16] <Laurenceb_> no
[22:16] <Laurenceb_> -135
[22:16] <_charlie> cubesat engineers? O.o do you work in a uni?
[22:17] <craag> ok
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[22:17] <Laurenceb_> that gives you about 2500km
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> cross track range at 70cm
[22:17] <craag> _charlie: I'm currently helping out the southampton uni cubesat team with the rf side
[22:18] <craag> UoS3 Project
[22:18] <_charlie> southampton looks great, Notts has just started interdisciplinary degrees (actually starting sep 2016)
[22:18] <Laurenceb_> oh actually that was for 17dBm Tx power
[22:18] <_charlie> Been a while since the last UoS sat, correct?
[22:18] <craag> _charlie: It's our first! (actually stands of Uni of Southampton Small Satellite)
[22:19] <_charlie> USSS XD
[22:19] <_charlie> I mean, the UoS has launched a few satellites in the past?
[22:19] <_charlie> Or am I thinking of another S
[22:19] <craag> no.
[22:19] <Laurenceb_> Surrey
[22:19] <craag> Yeah surrey do a lot
[22:19] <_charlie> Yeah Surrey, oops
[22:19] <Laurenceb_> I used to work there
[22:19] <craag> Southampton has talked about it... and waved hands...
[22:19] <craag> til now :D
[22:20] <_charlie> Great stuff
[22:20] <_charlie> Will be a great inspiration to alot of people
[22:20] <_charlie> Need more of those sorts of projects in the UK
[22:20] <_charlie> well done
[22:20] <Laurenceb_> my ground station https://github.com/Laurenceb/Tx_board/blob/master/Silabs/Hardware.jpg
[22:21] <craag> Nice
[22:21] <_charlie> neat
[22:21] <craag> I'm currently putting together the prototype board for our telecommand
[22:21] <_charlie> I'm trying to convince the uni to let me have a dish on top of the tower building
[22:21] <Laurenceb_> alu box is usb-stm32-si4463
[22:21] <_charlie> Oh neat craag
[22:21] <craag> using cc1120+PA => cc1125 rx
[22:21] <_charlie> What year do you expect to launch?
[22:22] <_charlie> nice one laurence
[22:22] <craag> possibly 2016...
[22:22] <_charlie> wow
[22:22] Action: Laurenceb_ zzz
[22:22] <craag> yeah - schedule is currently v tight
[22:22] <_charlie> what sort of payload?
[22:22] <DL7AD> good night
[22:23] <_charlie> night :)
[22:23] <craag> 1U: gps + jpeg camera
[22:23] <_charlie> will be interesting to see how gps fairs
[22:23] <_charlie> fares
[22:23] <craag> Primary mission is to study de-orbit pattern
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[22:24] <craag> Yeah cubesat gpses are ugly beasts
[22:24] <craag> I think I know the one they've gone for, and it's a full board by itself and quotes ~10 minutes to first fix.
[22:25] <_charlie> O.o
[22:25] <_charlie> I wonder if it would be possible to make a heat proof re-entry capsule for a cubesat
[22:26] <_charlie> or part of
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[22:28] <craag> Mm, I'm really quite interesting to see how long it keeps transmitting after it starts to de-orbit
[22:28] <craag> *interested
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[22:30] <_charlie> yeah
[22:30] <_charlie> so i presume you have ground stations around the world
[22:31] <craag> the plan is to publish a decoder so ham radio people can receive packets
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[22:32] <craag> current draft plan is to have gps+telemetry on a slow beacon that can be received without large antennas
[22:33] <craag> images on fast datarate, perhaps only over southampton (by telecommand)
[22:35] <craag> We currently have one planned ground station, and a backup telecommand unit will be sent to another existing one.
[22:36] <craag> The university aren't very keen to let us put up antennas currently though :/
[22:36] <craag> Did you say you were trying to put a dish up?
[22:47] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DL7AD-12 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL7AD-12
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[22:52] <_charlie> sorry
[22:52] <_charlie> :P
[22:52] <_charlie> No, I'm trying to take a dish down
[22:52] <_charlie> :D
[22:52] <_charlie> I was told its been up there forever, and no one knows what it was used for
[22:52] <_charlie> ill get some pics
[22:56] <craag> Oh right, interesting
[22:56] <craag> the radio club used to have a nice 2-axis satellite tracking system on top of one of our buildings
[22:56] <craag> then we err, burnt it down
[22:59] <craag> Ha, you can see it here: http://www.orc.soton.ac.uk/uploads/pics/Demolition.jpg
[22:59] <craag> As the building gets pulled down..
[23:05] <_charlie> lol
[23:05] <_charlie> http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p534/Sparkypiper/DSC_0100_zps208bd6a3.jpg
[23:06] <craag> oo
[23:06] <craag> nice!
[23:06] <_charlie> 14 stories
[23:06] <_charlie> high
[23:07] <craag> waveguide feed, so >5Ghz or so maybe?
[23:08] <_charlie> Ye
[23:08] <_charlie> p
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[23:10] <_charlie> No one really knows
[23:11] <craag> Given the upwards angle and the fixed positioning, it's gotta be for some geostationary satellite system I'd have thought.
[23:11] <craag> Also the sheer gain (and narrow beamwidth) at that freq
[23:12] <craag> Could just be that someone wanted some decent satellite tv to watch :P
[23:15] Nick change: Crashbone|Away -> Crashbone
[23:16] <_charlie> lol
[23:16] <_charlie> the guy did say it was for satellites
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[23:35] <_charlie> craag, really awesome stuff
[23:35] <_charlie> im off to have my walk now
[23:35] <_charlie> but please, tell me more tomorrow, if you have time
[23:35] <_charlie> sounds really, really interesting
[23:36] <_charlie> If I can be of any use next year with radio downlinks or whatever, I'd be happy to help
[23:36] <_charlie> A superb project, for sure
[23:36] <_charlie> Anyhow
[23:46] <craag> Won't be on tomorrow, but hope to catch you some other time, goodnight!
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[00:00] --- Wed Jun 10 2015