highaltitude.log.20150608

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[00:09] <craag> err tweetBot :|
[00:11] <craag> hmm it was in twitter's filtered stream, can't blame the bot.
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[03:04] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KF7ZFJ-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KF7ZFJ-1
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[03:22] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03LuckyLuke_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=LuckyLuke_chase
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[07:27] <LunarWork> hello
[07:31] <fsphil> howdy
[07:32] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Morning
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[08:59] <amell> so the royalmail.com ssl certificate expired last night and this means i cant buy any postage. morons.
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[09:10] <fsphil> fine here
[09:10] <fsphil> doesn't expire until 2017
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[09:11] <daveake> That sounds like a stamp of approval
[09:14] <fsphil> it's a first class website
[09:15] <_charlie> ouch lol
[09:16] <lz1dev_> amell: NSA forgot renew their mit cert
[09:16] <lz1dev_> ;)
[09:16] <lz1dev_> mitm*
[09:17] <amell> cant buy postage on ebay at the moment. its *.postoffice.co.uk SSL that has expired.
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[09:19] Nick change: lz1dev_ -> lz1dev
[09:26] <gonzo_> a few years ago, the UK MoD forgot to renew their licences for the spectrum they hold
[09:31] <_charlie> When was this?
[09:31] <_charlie> Are you not thinking of the deliberate sell off?
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[09:41] <gonzo_> it was 5-ish-years ago
[09:43] <gonzo_> the dept that managed all that was closed/re-orged. And it got forgotten. It also caysed the amateurs lots of problems, regarding licensing for repeaters etc in the 70cm band. As the MoD are the primary user there
[09:57] <amell> So humber coastgaurd called three lifeboats out for this EARS payload floating at sea.
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[09:57] <amell> Did the EARS people actually call the coastguard?
[09:58] <amell> Three lifeboats at sea for a bloody HAB payload! LIFE boat.
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[10:00] <_charlie> amell seriously chill out dude
[10:01] <amell> you actually think this is ok?
[10:01] <_charlie> There are bigger and better things to be offended/annoyed by
[10:02] <_charlie> Personally, no I don't think it's okay. But if I could be bothered to do anything about it, I would write a letter to the RNLI, an MP, or something. Anything but moan about about it for 24 hours on some irc where no one really cares.
[10:02] <amell> sorry you feel that way. an all weather lifeboat costs 5K to launch, the fuel and crew all has to be paid for.
[10:03] <amell> _charlie: youve obviously not seen the email list,
[10:03] <_charlie> no why would i
[10:08] <mfa298> Three life boats seems a bit excessive to rescue a payload.
[10:09] <amell> humber coastguard called them out. Wonder what was said to them.
[10:09] <amell> anyway, ive sent something to the list.
[10:12] <_charlie> Truly, great times we live in.
[10:15] <day> was it his own payload? :D
[10:15] <amell> no, not steves payload
[10:15] <day> would be glorious to start a fleet for your own balloon :D
[10:17] <_charlie> ayy lmao :D
[10:18] <_charlie> air lift some autonomous radio stations over Siberia to get better coverage over there, too. :D
[10:23] <russss> strikes me as rather excessive
[10:23] <russss> perhaps they decided to treat it as an exercise though?
[10:23] <russss> quiet day perhaps
[10:24] <_charlie> No one got hurt. No one died. The sun still goes up and down. "please don't do that again" (if need be). Let's move on.
[10:25] <russss> interestingly that is one of two lifeboats in the UK not run by the RNLI, which is a good pub quiz fact
[10:26] <amell> yeah, theres another one near worthing thats private too
[10:26] <_charlie> cool
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[10:39] <tweetBot> @bristolseds: #UKHAS #UBSEDS back soldering another GPS tracker for the incoming @MarsBalloon launch http://t.co/wIPfLBhrCC
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[10:41] <_charlie> nuuuuuuuu, Venus is much better than mars!
[10:47] <fsphil> earth wins
[10:49] <amell> Is that tweet pic actually a GPS tracker?
[10:50] <amell> oh, just seen the pic of UBSEDS6 - nice work.
[10:50] <amell> almost Leo-esque
[10:53] <_charlie> just a month until pluto omg
[10:54] <amell> surprised theres no reasonably decent pics yet
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[10:56] <_charlie> I bet there are, but the New Horizon Scientists want dibs on the most obvious discoveries :D
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[10:58] <fsphil> http://i.imgur.com/vPnIjS6.png
[10:58] <fsphil> made that from raw images recently
[10:58] <fsphil> it's already a weird object
[10:59] <_charlie> indeed
[10:59] <amell> i bet theres something awesome waiting for us there&
[10:59] <amell> bit like that comet, nobody knew it was that shape actually two balls stuck together
[11:00] <_charlie> When I was abducted, I was told of a Reptilian base there. We should be careful. NASA of course will edit the base out of the images.
[11:00] <amell> _charlie: did they remove the anal probe before they dropped you back?
[11:01] <_charlie> no (˜µ˜;)
[11:03] <amell> if i remembe rightly the next thing that came out was a satellite dish. lol
[11:03] <eroomde> family-friendly amell...
[11:04] <amell> eroomde: I refer the learned gentleman to South Park episode 1.
[11:05] <eroomde> much obliged
[11:06] <_charlie> ;-;
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[11:09] <_charlie> what on earth is this
[11:11] <LunarWork> yesterday a friend asked for help to identify strange clouds
[11:12] <LunarWork> turned out to be a rather rare type which was pretty interesting and looks quite cool
[11:12] <LunarWork> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammatus_cloud
[11:12] <amell> wow. where did you see this?
[11:12] <daveake> in the sky
[11:13] <_charlie> lmao  ^_^ oêêo^_^
[11:14] <daveake> I'm here all week
[11:22] <Upu> amell I'm not releasing that mail you send as they wouldn't have gone out for it unless they wanted too, I suspect they used it as an excerise
[11:22] <Upu> We asked them once and they said no
[11:23] <Upu> we only asked them to see if they knew someone who would
[11:23] <Upu> we didn't expect them to go out
[11:23] <Upu> anyway afk dog walk
[11:24] <_charlie> thumbs up
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[11:35] <gangadhargs> Hi
[11:35] <gangadhargs> Looking for help in setting up the frequency of NTX@ sold by HABSupplies using Arduino
[11:35] <gangadhargs> NTX2 I meant
[11:36] <eroomde> 2b presumably
[11:38] <gangadhargs> yeah NTX2B
[11:38] <gangadhargs> I connected it to Arduino (EN to pin 2 on Arduino, VCC to 3.3V on Arduino and 0v to GND on Arduino)
[11:39] <gangadhargs> and gave it a command to set the frequency to 434.4125
[11:39] <gangadhargs> but when I tried transmission, it was transmitting at 434.38...
[11:40] <gangadhargs> so clearly I am doing something wrong
[11:42] <daveake> Is 434.38 the original frequency (so nothing changed) ?
[11:42] <gangadhargs> I have been wondering about what the default frequency is....
[11:42] <daveake> Well just turn it on and see
[11:43] <gangadhargs> I gave it the command wr75 as given here - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/HAB%20Supplies%20Datasheets/HAB-NTX2B-FA.pdf
[11:43] <gangadhargs> sure...that is what I did...when I turned it on and transmit, I get the reception on 434.38
[11:43] <LunarWork> amell, well she posted a photo of those clouds at dusk and asked if anybody had an idea why they had those bulbs
[11:43] <LunarWork> and then I found them in a list on wikipedia
[11:43] <gonzo_> I've never used one of these, biut you didn't mention connecting any data lines?
[11:44] <gangadhargs> yes, I connected the EN to Pin 2 which I had designated as TX via the code
[11:44] <gangadhargs> I mean EN of NTX2 to pin 2 of ARduino
[11:45] <daveake> and you're using the code from that pdf ?
[11:46] <daveake> re default frequency, it's on the label - "The module will perform as per its label frequency when shipped"
[11:46] <gangadhargs> yes, I am using code from the PDF
[11:46] <gonzo_> I'll get my coat
[11:47] <gangadhargs> and the label says 434.400
[11:47] <daveake> well first, try a different channel number see if the signal moves
[11:48] <gangadhargs> got it
[11:48] <gangadhargs> will do
[11:48] <daveake> If you're using an SDR, it might not be calibrated and/or you might need to swap I/Q in the SDR s/w
[11:52] <daveake> Does anyone else know if it's OK to drive EN on the NTXB from 5V logic if the NTXB is being supplied from 3.3V? On the NTX2 I think Vcc needed to be 5V too.
[11:58] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AE5JY-9 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AE5JY-9
[11:58] <gangadhargs> Interesting point about SDR calibration...I will look into that
[11:59] <gangadhargs> I can try my next frequency update on the NTX2 using 5V output from Arduino
[11:59] <gangadhargs> thanks...I did not think of that
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[12:31] <Laurenceb__> anyone here any good with ubuntu?
[12:31] <Laurenceb__> I'm having issues with windows closing at random when i drag them
[12:31] <eroomde> that's very odd
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[12:32] <eroomde> are you accidently double-clicking on the banner to minimise?
[12:32] <Laurenceb__> no
[12:32] <Laurenceb__> Window manager warning: Received a _NET_WM_MOVERESIZE message for 0x4e6b7ac (@l); these messages lack timestamps and therefore suck.
[12:33] <Laurenceb__> "Clock" has quit unexpectedly
[12:33] <Laurenceb__> very odd
[12:33] <Laurenceb__> maybe i need to check my ram
[12:34] <eroomde> yeah that sounds like something is pretty foobar
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[13:03] <Laurenceb> grrrr
[13:03] <Laurenceb> PC died completely
[13:04] <Laurenceb> seems to work now, but I've lost all my samba shares
[13:04] Action: SpeedEvil imagines a comedy simpsons fireball.
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[13:08] <Laurenceb> itd help if i knew the first thing about what im trying to do lol
[13:08] <Laurenceb> other than "it involves samba"
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[13:12] <_charlie> http://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/my-code-doesnt-work-i-have-no-idea-why-my-code-works.jpg
[13:12] <eroomde> yep.
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[13:18] <christop_> :-)
[13:19] <Laurenceb> same here
[13:24] <Laurenceb> sudo mount /media/shares
[13:24] <Laurenceb> mount error(13): Permission denied
[13:24] <Laurenceb> classy
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[13:28] <_charlie> lol
[13:28] <_charlie> I hate writing presentations :/
[13:29] <_charlie> I'm not even sure what the exact topic should be.
[13:29] <Laurenceb> I just hate everything
[13:29] <Laurenceb> usually cuz its guaranteed to result in epic fail
[13:30] <Laurenceb> case in point: sudo permission denied
[13:30] <_charlie> Easier to title the talk along the lines of "Why Venus is good to visit" or, "Choosing the best location to visit"
[13:30] <_charlie> LOL poor laurence
[13:31] <eroomde> Laurenceb: let's not have one of your blow-by-blow accounts of something technical but not hab-related plz
[13:31] <Laurenceb> heh
[13:31] <Laurenceb> sorry I'll just throw things out of the window instead
[13:31] <eroomde> more likely to make a difference certainly
[13:32] <eroomde> i still know all about beagglebone (pmic?) problems
[13:32] <Laurenceb> starting with all the fileservers
[13:32] <_charlie> maybe not a positive difference :P
[13:32] <eroomde> because that seemed to occupy you technically and emotionally for about 3 weeks
[13:32] <Laurenceb> yeah before i decided never to use it again
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[13:36] <Laurenceb> FUUUUUU
[13:36] <Laurenceb> BOFH changed the domain names lol
[13:36] <Laurenceb> swear he was trolling me
[13:37] <Laurenceb> now ppl are laughing at my from other end of office :-/
[13:37] <Laurenceb> trolld on irc and irl
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[13:39] <Laurenceb> anyway, lets talk about BBB PMIC
[13:40] <SpeedEvil> I thought you hit yours with an axe.
[13:41] <fsphil> I've a BBB somewhere if you want it
[13:41] <fsphil> I'll probably never use it
[13:44] <Laurenceb> NOOOO
[13:44] <Laurenceb> never again
[13:45] <Laurenceb> only thing that makes raspberry pi look like pro design
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[13:58] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
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[14:16] <Ian_> [14:31] <Laurenceb> sorry I'll just throw things out of the window instead. As close to HAB that you have got for a while - HAB testing regime perhaps :-)
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[14:36] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PI_SKY_TEST after 032 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PI_SKY_TEST
[14:36] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03XX - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=XX
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[14:49] <CHRISG7OGX> does anyone have the parameters for PI SKY TEST please?
[14:50] <craag> CHRISG7OGX: most likely a test ;)
[14:50] <daveake> Hence "TEST" in the payload name :-)
[14:50] <daveake> Perhaps I should call it $$NOT_AN_ACTUAL_FLIGHT ?
[14:51] <daveake> XX is a test too; X marks the spot (the predicted landing spot)
[14:51] <CHRISG7OGX> sri, seeing the blue expected propagation circle deceived me tks craag
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[14:53] <day> is there some kind of an aprs good behaviour code? like not sending all the time, checking if someone else sends, etc.?
[14:54] <eroomde> yes
[14:55] <eroomde> more to do with how you set the propagation
[14:55] <eroomde> propagation is not really the word sorry, i meant the path
[14:55] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Well APRS is a contention based system, so yes, but normally ignored by the HAB community as they are normally only sending UI frames ...
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[14:56] <fsphil> keep your packet length to a minimum
[14:56] <day> no advertisments? :D
[14:57] <fsphil> well that's covered by the amateur license already in some places :)
[14:57] <fsphil> in some areas the aprs frequency is quite busy, so short packets have better odds of being received
[15:00] <day> so everyone is likely spamming gazillions of tiny packages...
[15:01] <eroomde> it's the path stuff that causes agro with other aprs users
[15:01] <Reb-SM3ULC> day: low duty-cycle is recommended.
[15:02] <eroomde> because you have LoS on many more gates than usual
[15:02] <eroomde> and if you set the path too wide you can flood the system
[15:03] <Reb-SM3ULC> day: but it's a good qustions. i would say 1 packet per minute should be "ok"..
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[15:22] <Lunar_Lander> hello again
[15:28] <Upu> hey Lunar
[15:28] <Lunar_Lander> ah hi Upu
[15:28] <Lunar_Lander> how's life?
[15:28] <Laurenceb> lol
[15:28] <Upu> good on holiday just chilling out
[15:28] <Laurenceb> http://ts-dep-dem.web.cern.ch/ts-dep-dem/news/news2005.htm#3weeks
[15:28] <Laurenceb> i2c fixed :P
[15:28] <Lunar_Lander> cool
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[15:44] <anerdev> hey hey guys ... What you think about this ? http://www.adafruit.com/products/1272
[15:44] <anerdev> In an GPS shield with sd slot
[15:45] <eroomde> it looks blue
[15:45] <eroomde> it probably works ok but i would not be an spi bus right up next to a gps antenna
[15:46] <anerdev> uhm ... ok ok
[15:46] <anerdev> and the gps module ? what you think ? Is better than Ublock ?
[15:47] <anerdev> sorry, Ublox
[15:47] <eroomde> i've no idea. probably not.
[15:49] <anerdev> Ublox is the better ?
[15:49] <anerdev> best
[15:49] <craag> If it's the same as the adafruit ultimate gps breakout (most likely is), they're rubbish in comparison to ublox.
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[15:50] <craag> Very noisy horizontal positioning, seem to lose lock often when travelling vertically.
[15:50] <craag> ie going up/down, eg. on a hab.
[15:50] <Lunar_Lander> ohh
[15:51] <eroomde> it is ultimate though
[15:52] <anerdev> oook. I will buy the Ublox. But there is much difference between the external antenna and quad- v when receive ?
[15:52] <eroomde> and you don't get to be a maker icon without knowing your shit
[15:52] <eroomde> oh wait...
[15:52] <anerdev> Because the external active antenna I can put out of the box, and I think is better for recevive signal .. or not ?
[15:52] <eroomde> it's better if the antenna has to be some distance from the ublox module
[15:54] <anerdev> why ? O.0
[15:54] <anerdev> I don't know if is better to use this: http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=51 or this http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=96 with this antenna http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_65&product_id=119
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[15:57] <daveake> First is lighter; second lets you get the antenna outside the box which is good if you have some cameras in there
[15:58] <anerdev> daveake, yes, I have 2 camera for the next launch
[15:58] <anerdev> so .. the external antenna is better ?
[15:59] <daveake> Not sure what I can add to what I just said
[15:59] <anerdev> hihihi sorry ...
[15:59] <anerdev> I will buy the version with external antenna.
[16:00] <anerdev> But the camera recorder is a problem for the gps antenna quad version ?
[16:00] <daveake> How can I say?
[16:00] <daveake> Depends on what camera and just how close it is to the antenna
[16:01] <anerdev> gopro. The camera I will mount in the top of the box.
[16:04] <anerdev> and the external antenna near the camera
[16:17] <anerdev> anyway ... daveake: you use the NTX2B for send radio data or other module such as lmt2 ?
[16:21] <Vaizki> highly offtopic but.. http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-33050289
[16:21] <Vaizki> that.. makes me... happy.
[16:21] <Vaizki> carry on, at ease
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[16:24] <anerdev> vaizki hihihi
[16:24] <anerdev> bye guys ... meet tonight
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[17:00] <eroomde> http://www.ustream.tv/NASAJPL2
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[17:14] <Laurenceb> lol
[17:14] <Laurenceb> we need this at hab launches
[17:15] <Laurenceb> execute the launch
[17:15] <Laurenceb> guillotine
[17:16] <lz1dev> lol
[17:16] <Laurenceb> what are they all typing
[17:16] <Laurenceb> trying to look busy?
[17:16] <russss> updating twitter
[17:16] <Laurenceb> haha
[17:18] <eroomde> and despite all that
[17:18] <eroomde> 'bob says he needs another 15 mins'
[17:18] <daveake> Just connecting another cylinder
[17:19] <eroomde> reversing up another cylinder
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[17:23] <Laurenceb> lol someones on facebook
[17:24] <russss> how many cylinders are they using there
[17:24] <Laurenceb> a lorry full
[17:26] <Laurenceb> you can see it in the background
[17:27] <LazyLeopard> Ah, HABbing NASA-style...
[17:30] <eroomde> his display has stopped
[17:30] <eroomde> poor bugger
[17:30] <Laurenceb> prob samba
[17:30] <Laurenceb> i see ppl running around
[17:30] <Laurenceb> zzzzzz
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[17:46] <Reb-SM3ULC> up and away!
[17:49] <eroomde> nice and gentle
[17:50] <Reb-SM3ULC> wonder if they have a backup-tracer
[17:50] <Reb-SM3ULC> tracker
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[17:52] <Ian_> Would have been nice to see the actual launch and takeup of the capsule from the tower though . . . I felt short changed with that
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[18:03] <Oliver___> hai
[18:06] <arjunnaha> Hey
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[18:20] <amell> LDSD launch already? thought next flight was in 2016
[18:20] <eroomde> nope
[18:20] <eroomde> it's happening now
[18:22] <amell> ah. hopefully they wont need to call the RNLI out.
[18:23] <amell> look forward to seeing if the chute deploys properly this time. the last time it ripped to shreds if i remember rightly
[18:24] <amell> wtf is the presenter wearing on his ears? are they really huge earrings?
[18:26] <arjunnaha> Quick Question... Which yagi antenna can you recommend for a chase car antenna
[18:26] <Geoff-G8DHE> Its not on the map is it ? Didn't they register a flight doc ?
[18:27] <amell> Geoff-G8DHE: nasa #fail
[18:28] <Geoff-G8DHE> arjunnaha, http://widerimage.co.uk/docs/Mountain_Yagi_434_4Element.pdf
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[18:28] <amell> eroomde: interesting read -http://www.nasa.gov/jpl/ldsd/the-supreme-council-of-parachute-experts
[18:28] <arjunnaha> Any premade? ;-)
[18:29] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yes just search for Amateur radio 70cms Yagi aerials
[18:29] <eroomde> arjunnaha: i would prioritise directionality over gain
[18:29] <eroomde> and go for something not too big
[18:30] <eroomde> maybe find the most directional 3-el yagi you can
[18:30] <eroomde> i think that's what i'd want for chase and recovery
[18:30] <eroomde> amell: thanks
[18:30] <eroomde> interesting
[18:30] <eroomde> they didn't name the experts :)
[18:30] <amell> eroomde: probably mostly geriatrics from the 50s/60s.
[18:30] <arjunnaha> eroomde , Geoff-G8DHE: Cheers
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[18:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> see here http://www.amateurradiosupplies.com/product-p/11523.htm
[18:32] <Geoff-G8DHE> or a range here 2m and 270cms http://www.amateurradiosupplies.com/product-p/11523.htm
[18:32] <arjunnaha> So...it doesn't have to be 434?
[18:32] <Geoff-G8DHE> No you need an aerial tuned for the band your using what are you using ?
[18:33] <arjunnaha> 70cm
[18:33] <Geoff-G8DHE> then you need 70cms or 434MHz
[18:33] <arjunnaha> http://www.moonraker.eu/yg27-35-dual-band-hi-spec-2-70cm-yagi-antenna?
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[18:33] <Geoff-G8DHE> Now fit that inside your chase vehicle ?
[18:35] <daveake> I have this one for chasing http://www.moonraker.eu/amateur-radio/beam-and-yagi-antennas/zl-special-yagi-antenna/zl7-70-70cm-7-element-special-yagi-antenna
[18:35] <Geoff-G8DHE> 3 to 5 elements is plenty on 70cms with that number you can even undo the nuts and collapse the aerial for smaller size!
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[18:36] <LazyLeopard> Length 115 cm, Longest element 200cm. Hope your car has nice big doors... ;)
[18:37] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
[18:38] <amell> any idea how long before ignition of motor?
[18:38] <LazyLeopard> I got this one: http://www.moonraker.eu/amateur-radio/beam-and-yagi-antennas/vhf-uhf-yagi/diamond-yagi-antenna/diamond-a430s10r-70cm-10-element-yagi and it is WAY TOO BIG to go in a car easily. ;)
[18:40] <daveake> 2 hours from launch I think amell
[18:40] <amell> so about another 50 min. ish
[18:41] <Upu> I got that one too LazyLeopard
[18:41] <Upu> and yes too big
[18:42] <LazyLeopard> Great for use at home though.
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[18:42] <Upu> http://www.arrowantennas.com/arrowii/440-5ii.html
[18:42] <Upu> that imho is the best one for running round working out which tree its in
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[18:43] <LazyLeopard> Yeag, designed for use hand-held.
[18:43] <LazyLeopard> Yeah...
[18:43] <LazyLeopard> (Sheesh, my typing is terrible these days...)
[18:43] <Upu> G3VZV told me a great trick with those
[18:43] <Upu> take the handle off
[18:44] <Upu> and there is a mount for a tripod
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[18:50] <tweetBot> @marsballoon: @bristolseds good to have you back on board! Conditions are currently looking good for this weekend, will let u know https://t.co/PWQlAdEGZv
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[18:56] <fsphil> oh nasa's doing their balloon thing again
[18:57] <fsphil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q5SQBC_e64
[18:58] <fsphil> shame we can't put it on habhub
[19:00] <Geoff-G8DHE> 15 minutes to rocket launch
[19:01] <michal_f> what are the rockets for ?
[19:01] <amell> spin up
[19:02] <amell> then increase altitude
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[19:02] <fsphil> they're very casual on the radio
[19:03] <amell> Those arrow yagis are apparently in the US and dollars. is there anything similar in the UK?
[19:04] <amell> would like something very handheld for DF in the field.
[19:04] <amell> 434 -and- 868 if that is even possible?
[19:05] <fsphil> don't see why not
[19:05] <fsphil> they usually have opposite polarity
[19:05] <amell> not seen any 2m and 70cm combined yagis
[19:05] <Upu> not seen anything as good
[19:05] <fsphil> there are loads
[19:05] <Upu> they are very high quality
[19:05] <Upu> worth the momeny
[19:05] <fsphil> most of the arrow antennas for satellite are 2m/70cm
[19:05] <Upu> money
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[19:05] <Geoff-G8DHE> Use the claculator, then pop into B&Q and get some alu. tubing, some bolts, wingnuts and your there
[19:06] <Geoff-G8DHE> Calculator
[19:06] <Upu> :)
[19:06] <amell> with BnQ prices these days, the arrow antenna is probably cheaper :)
[19:06] <fsphil> lol
[19:06] <fsphil> possibly yea
[19:06] <fsphil> http://www.g6lvb.com/homebrewarrow.htm
[19:07] <amell> good god, you will take someones eye out with that.
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[19:08] <Geoff-G8DHE> Boom http://www.diy.com/departments/aluminium-square-tube-h10mm-w10mm-l1m/254111_BQ.prd and elements http://www.diy.com/departments/ffa-concept-aluminium-round-tube-l1m/254238_BQ.prd
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[19:10] <fsphil> 434 and 869 would be nice and compact
[19:10] <fsphil> if you where using an rfm or similar on 869 you could just put it right on the yagi, minimum coax
[19:10] <amell> i was thinking about putting the lora decoder box right on the handle.
[19:11] <Geoff-G8DHE> Also make the driven element a simple dipole, which can unclip, then you can use it to hunt the "null"
[19:11] <amell> but the antenna needs to be mobile enough to be able to hold while walking through 5 foot high rape fields&
[19:11] <amell> the designs proposed thus far do not fulfil that criteria
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[19:13] <daveake> http://www.hamtv.com/giffiles/Hardhatcamk6mds200.jpg
[19:13] <daveake> s/rod aerial/yagi/
[19:14] <amell> lolz
[19:14] <Geoff-G8DHE> Launch 1 minute
[19:14] <daveake> http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee379/gizmobrown/anim_electriccap.gif
[19:14] <Geoff-G8DHE> I hope there going to cut back to the live feed!!
[19:15] <daveake> Here you go http://www.detroitatvrepeater.com/24ghzhat.gif
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[19:15] <fsphil> 1 minute to launch
[19:15] <daveake> I thought they said 100,000 feet before launch
[19:15] <fsphil> hmmm.. what did they launch
[19:15] <daveake> this is 80k or so
[19:15] <x-f> a rocket
[19:15] <daveake> 70k sorry
[19:16] <fsphil> arg, lag
[19:16] <amell> 72k here
[19:16] <fsphil> small sounding rocket?
[19:16] <amell> its an ATK solid
[19:16] <amell> AP rocket
[19:16] <fsphil> I don't remember them doing a ground launch last time
[19:16] <Ian_> Negative - 1 hour and one minute it was 2015z not 2015BST
[19:16] <x-f> they launched another one some 30 minutes ago too
[19:17] <fsphil> wonder what altitude they get to
[19:17] <fsphil> weather rockets!
[19:17] <amell> im confused.
[19:17] <fsphil> when weather balloons are not cool enough
[19:17] <Ian_> They have been launching sounding rockets
[19:17] <amell> oh i didnt realise that
[19:17] <fsphil> live video is nice
[19:17] <Ian_> Best call the coastguard, they will put you right :)
[19:17] <fsphil> we should totally do that
[19:18] <amell> we did that on sunday.
[19:18] <fsphil> from the balloon
[19:18] <amell> rockets and balloons together
[19:18] <daveake> of the balloon
[19:18] <daveake> at altitude
[19:18] <Ian_> Imagine pranging the balloon with a sounding rocket
[19:18] <fsphil> hah
[19:18] <fsphil> "um... oops"
[19:18] <fsphil> "sorry guys"
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[19:19] <amell> eroomde: you might want this? http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/spo/5055207230.html
[19:20] <amell> hopefully it has had its warhead removed.
[19:21] <amell> not sure what use I would find for a tactical nuclear weapon designed for battlefield use
[19:21] <Geoff-G8DHE> Don't they seel them to the American Police force these days ?
[19:21] <amell> I believe honest john only ever had nuclear warheads
[19:21] <Geoff-G8DHE> 80k feet
[19:22] <fsphil> 24.3km
[19:22] <Geoff-G8DHE> Oh a new Bot ?
[19:22] <fsphil> affirmative
[19:23] <Geoff-G8DHE> :)
[19:24] <fsphil> I'm miles better
[19:24] <fsphil> ah crap
[19:24] <Vaizki> amell: also sarin gas
[19:24] <Vaizki> a very friendly all'round rocket
[19:25] <amell> 15.4 mile range with 20kiloton warhead. Sounds a bit close for comfort!
[19:26] <Vaizki> duck & cover
[19:26] <Ian_> Hopefully downwind
[19:27] <LazyLeopard> ...in a nice well lead-lined APC...
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[19:36] <Hermes_> hi
[19:37] <Geoff-G8DHE> ho
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[19:38] <daveake> hu
[19:39] <fsphil> ha
[19:41] <daveake> Typical Hermes - can't deliver anything
[19:42] <russss> I'm enjoying the screencast of Global Mapper v16.2 - Registered
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[19:44] <amell> another half an hour?
[19:45] <MikkMihkel> :D
[19:45] <MikkMihkel> @russss - its really nice to watch, eh
[19:46] <russss> ground video is pretty good, wonder what lens they have
[19:47] <Vaizki> something that costs more than my car for sure
[19:49] <MikkMihkel> Hehee! I'm pretty sure it does
[19:49] <Laurenceb_> how long until launch?
[19:50] <amell> im guessing c.2015UTC
[19:50] <amell> which is in 25 mins.
[19:50] <MikkMihkel> it's so nice when some parts of this radio transmission comes in
[19:52] <russss> regrettably the commentary will come back at some point
[19:53] <russss> I want a commentary-free stream
[19:53] <amell> it wouldnt look good if this chute failed as well
[19:53] <russss> chute is probably the hardest part. I think they have another 2 tests scheduled?
[19:54] <amell> they did this stuff in the 60s, so it shouldnt be hard
[19:54] <amell> i think some of it is re-learning
[19:57] <MikkMihkel> Guys... we can call them @ 7849
[20:00] <russss> 21:35 UTC, so another hour and a half
[20:00] <amell> russs: but we are in BST
[20:00] <russss> presumably they've got some way of making that balloon float
[20:01] <russss> yeah so that's 22:35 BST
[20:01] <russss> part of my brain constantly remains in UTC
[20:02] <MikkMihkel> :D
[20:05] <fsphil> doing a pretty good version of the habhub logo now
[20:05] <russss> heh
[20:07] <fsphil> lol
[20:07] <MikkMihkel> That sound :D
[20:07] <MikkMihkel> haha
[20:07] <russss> nice FX
[20:07] <MikkMihkel> i guess that guys from the commentary room came back
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[20:23] <MikkMihkel> 20:21:50 float was achieved
[20:23] <Lunar_Lander> awesome
[20:25] <MikkMihkel> what "issue" they had?
[20:25] <Geoff-G8DHE> still rising according to the video!
[20:28] <fsphil> burst detection switch
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[20:28] <fsphil> how can a switch be deactivated
[20:30] <fxmulder> remove all the power and cat5 cables from it?
[20:31] <russss> they probably have a switch on the switch
[20:31] <russss> so they can switch the switch off
[20:33] <Reb-SM3ULC> still in sight :)
[20:40] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-46 after 0311 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-46
[20:42] <_charlie> cor blimey
[20:47] <Reb-SM3ULC> nice one :)
[20:47] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[20:47] Nick change: Guest25111 -> andew
[20:52] <chris_99> woo, just won a H2 regulator :)
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[20:52] <_charlie> yay
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> chris_99: Woo!
[20:57] Action: SpeedEvil idly wonders about 3d printed regulators
[20:57] <chris_99> haha
[20:57] <Upu> what could go wrong
[20:57] <amell> any idea how much longer?
[20:58] <chris_99> i wonder which is more dangerous a 3d printed gun or that SpeedEvil
[20:58] <SpeedEvil> chris_99: I have been wondering also about 3d printing incorporating filliment winding
[20:59] <chris_99> fillament winding?
[20:59] <amell> wow. did you see the falcon9 gopro reentry video?
[21:00] <Upu> 35 mins amell
[21:00] <MikkMihkel> Oh noes.
[21:00] <russss> oh and here's the commentary again
[21:00] <russss> I did not miss it
[21:01] <MikkMihkel> @amell - I did see, it was pretty awesome thoug
[21:01] <MikkMihkel> h
[21:02] <amell> if the float is supposed to be at 120K, why wait?
[21:03] <Upu> lol
[21:03] <russss> amell: I think they had to get a certain distance away
[21:03] <Upu> ring NASA and complain amell
[21:03] <Geoff-G8DHE> position the boats for collection
[21:03] <fsphil> complicated machine
[21:03] <fsphil> they want to make sure it's all good
[21:03] <fsphil> complicated + expensive
[21:03] <amell> yeah, in the range etc
[21:03] <russss> if you look at their GIS thing they have a number of ellipses plotted for where it could go if stuff goes wrong
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[21:04] <russss> so they have to make sure it doesn't hit that other island.
[21:04] <russss> yeah you can see them there
[21:05] <russss> "The Forbidden Isle" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niihau
[21:05] <russss> sounds nice.
[21:06] <fsphil> you must not speak of it
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[21:14] <russss> yay video
[21:14] <eroomde> just back home after 3hrs offline
[21:15] <eroomde> roughly how long?
[21:15] <fsphil> remote control gopros
[21:15] <fsphil> about 10 minutes
[21:15] <russss> eroomde: 20mins
[21:15] <russss> 21:35 UTC drop time
[21:15] <eroomde> ok
[21:15] <eroomde> i might delay watching GoT for this then
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[21:15] <eroomde> heh, so they've gone for a ringsail
[21:15] <fsphil> talking chutes
[21:15] <eroomde> i wonder who suggested that...
[21:16] <amell> I think the first one was a ringsail too
[21:16] <eroomde> no it wasn't
[21:17] <arko> eroomde: didnt you have people crowded around you last time yelling at the livestream about the parachute?
[21:17] <eroomde> yes
[21:17] <amell> yes it was. its the same chute, but they have changed the crown
[21:17] <eroomde> i think more direct words were had since
[21:17] <fsphil> disksail last year
[21:17] <arko> :_
[21:17] <arko> :P
[21:17] <russss> hah that's an amazing test
[21:17] <arko> murcia
[21:17] <arko> murica*
[21:17] <eroomde> yes that test is cool
[21:17] <eroomde> youi basically get an infinite mass ratio
[21:17] <eroomde> which is a hard thing to otherwise get
[21:18] <amell> checking as i am sure it was a ring sail last time
[21:18] <eroomde> disksail
[21:18] <eroomde> 1) they just said on the feed
[21:18] <Lunar_Lander> USA!
[21:18] <fsphil> they just said a few minutes ago disksail for 2014
[21:18] <eroomde> 2) i know the people involved
[21:18] <eroomde> the world of mars lander parachutes is not a big one
[21:19] <fsphil> I notice they're better behaved on the live stream :)
[21:20] <arko> lol
[21:20] <arko> i remember last time
[21:20] <arko> good memory fsphil :P
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[21:20] <SpeedEvil> http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/
[21:20] <SpeedEvil> Low density supersonic decellerator thingy test
[21:20] <russss> youtube stream here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q5SQBC_e64
[21:21] <eroomde> jpl peanuts https://www.dropbox.com/sc/dhmailizv3yh0lz/AADq0OdZGjkZjT7VbAq8DYPAa
[21:21] Action: fsphil didn't get jpl peanuts :)
[21:21] <daveake> bacon butties >> peanuts
[21:22] <arko> poor fsphil, they peanuts were behind some glass when i gave him the tour :(
[21:22] <fsphil> for my own safety probably
[21:22] <arko> hah
[21:23] <fsphil> I'd be the unlucky one to get them banned or something
[21:23] <arko> lol
[21:24] <amell> ok disk sail. yes, found the data. interesting doc at http://mars.nasa.gov/files/mep/Low-Density-Supersonic-Decelerator-LDSD-Press-Kit-2015.pdf
[21:25] <daveake> ah good, I wasn't sure who to believe
[21:25] <fsphil> nominal bus
[21:25] <fsphil> it'll get you where you want to go, but no more
[21:25] <amell> reduced diameter from 33.5m to 30.5m
[21:25] <fsphil> it doesn't have seats either
[21:26] <amell> wikipedia is wrong. out of date. wouldnt be the first time
[21:26] <fsphil> something is wrong on the internet?
[21:26] <arko> woot, got this livefeed on my new tv
[21:26] <fsphil> yay!
[21:27] <Lunar_Lander> nice
[21:27] <daveake> If it's about parachutes, I'll believe Ed against any random on the internet
[21:27] <amell> even the project pdf files are inconsistent.
[21:28] <fsphil> 7 minutes
[21:28] <fsphil> aaaages
[21:29] <Lunar_Lander> great moments coming up
[21:30] <daveake> Sats 22
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[21:30] <fsphil> TV drop
[21:31] <eroomde> who's making that call?
[21:31] <eroomde> er, good question
[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> 3:30
[21:32] <eroomde> not exactly gene kranz
[21:32] <russss> heh
[21:32] <arko> lol
[21:33] <Laurenceb_> how long?
[21:33] <russss> 2mins
[21:33] <fsphil> like that little shurg they give eachother
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> 1:30
[21:33] <arko> haha
[21:34] <Lunar_Lander> final minute
[21:34] <Reb-SM3ULC> :)
[21:34] <fsphil> assume positions on edge of seats
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> 20 sec
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> drop
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> fire
[21:35] <Upu> what feed are you watching
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> ustream
[21:35] <russss> youtube has about 20sec delay
[21:36] <Upu> k
[21:36] <russss> wow, great ground video
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> with the smoke trail
[21:36] <arko> woooooooo
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> burnout
[21:36] <Upu> how long is the burn for ?
[21:36] <arko> *you spin me right round baby right round*
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[21:36] <Upu> not long
[21:36] <arko> i think 1min?
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:36] <Upu> whats the final alt ?
[21:36] <arko> i forget, nvm
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> 180 kilofeet
[21:37] <Laurenceb_> interesting oscillation
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> that's next to 60 km
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> 54864 m
[21:37] <SpeedEvil> Was that an overperforming rocket by 100m/s?
[21:37] <arko> here we go!
[21:38] <arko> commeee onnn parachute
[21:38] <Laurenceb_> busted
[21:38] <Lunar_Lander> the chute exploded
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> Aww
[21:38] <fsphil> aaaw
[21:38] <arko> well fudge cakes
[21:38] <russss> I think partial chute is a generous assessment
[21:38] <Lunar_Lander> dam
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[21:38] <Lunar_Lander> the second time
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> Look't Dem Shreds, Damn.
[21:38] <michemto> OH SHIET
[21:38] <michemto> It happened :(
[21:38] <_charlie> O.o
[21:38] <fsphil> that looked even worse
[21:38] <fsphil> than last year
[21:39] <amell> cant believe i missed it. looking for a rewind feed
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:39] <michemto> Anyone has a video of last try?
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> last year it lasted a moment longer I think
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yRWhu0UGYw
[21:39] <eroomde> michemto: it's def on youtube
[21:39] <Ian_> Ah well, back in 2016 I guess
[21:40] <arko> damn it
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> :(
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> is that the highest speed parachute opening that was ever tried?
[21:40] <eroomde> no
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:40] <eroomde> they're tried well up into hypersonic
[21:40] <eroomde> but it's bloody hard
[21:41] <eroomde> you get a number of problems
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> I imagine
[21:41] <michemto> Ty @lunar_lander
[21:41] <amell> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q5SQBC_e64 is the rewindable feed
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> you're welcome
[21:41] <michemto> well it did worse this time.
[21:41] <eroomde> 1) the openeing characteristics are totally different, supersonically the chute inflates from the mouth backwards
[21:41] <Reb-SM3ULC> why just one onboard when high risk?
[21:41] <eroomde> whereas subsonically it tends to inflate from the apex back to the mouth
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:42] <eroomde> this can put some quite large differential stresses on the canopy, especially when it finally tries to snap open
[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[21:42] <eroomde> 2) above about mach 1.8, the shockwave from the forebody (the ldsd test vehicle) can still be strong enough to interact with the shockwave from the chute canopy
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> The computations for this must be really entertaining.
[21:42] <eroomde> which can make for a very unstable inflation, if it inflates at all
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> elastic fabric, supersonic shocks, ...
[21:42] <eroomde> the computations are bloody hard
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:43] <eroomde> fluid-structure interation
[21:43] <eroomde> you have to do CFD obviously but also regenerage the parachute mesh every iteration which is an FEA job
[21:43] <eroomde> the packages they use are the ones people use to test things like the effect of munitions on vehicles
[21:43] <eroomde> very expensive and intensive multiphysics packages
[21:44] <michemto> anyone knows the weight of this payload over there
[21:44] <eroomde> 3) designing to survive inflate and then designing something to be stable (and not glide or oscillate) when subsonic are often opposing constraints
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> i tried multiphysics once... elmer
[21:45] <Laurenceb_> got as far as making a mesh etc and starting it running
[21:45] <eroomde> people use lsdyna a lot here
[21:45] <Laurenceb_> then i discovered it was numerically unstable
[21:45] <Laurenceb_> this stuff is complex
[21:45] <eroomde> yeah
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> ItI can sort-of-imagine inflating positively outside the atmosphere using a pressurant gas.
[21:45] <eroomde> the parachute?
[21:45] <Laurenceb_> you need to be skilled in the art of mesh generation
[21:46] <SpeedEvil> But - interacting shocks and flapping - insane
[21:46] <eroomde> the thermal and pressure forces would be diabolical if you inflated the chute outside the atmosphere
[21:46] <eroomde> on entry
[21:47] <SpeedEvil> Oh
[21:47] <SpeedEvil> right
[21:47] <SpeedEvil> you dump the majority of the delta-v at high v so you can radiate it
[21:47] <eroomde> yes
[21:47] <SpeedEvil> I was thinking MOOSE
[21:47] <eroomde> the heat shield does 99% of the work
[21:47] <eroomde> but that 1% is still really hard
[21:47] <eroomde> hence the crazy ballet or parachutes, retrorockets, and airbags
[21:47] <eroomde> or skycrane
[21:47] <eroomde> or whatever
[21:48] <eroomde> ballet of*
[21:48] <_charlie> EM drive ;)
[21:48] <amell> finally caught up, so it lasted even shorter than last time. what now?
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> Trampolines.
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> amell: they make another one. After fingerpointing.
[21:48] <eroomde> please let's never mention EM drives in here again
[21:48] <eroomde> thanks
[21:48] <eroomde> amell: back to the drawing board i guess
[21:48] <_charlie> lol
[21:48] <amell> so theorising, what options do they have?
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> EM drives are cool! I developed one using a lithium ion battery and a LED. It gets 1cm/fortnight delta-v
[21:49] <_charlie> XD
[21:49] <SpeedEvil> amell: it's basically impossible to tell.
[21:49] <amell> The lady in mission control looked upset. wonder if she was chutes
[21:49] <_charlie> There were two ladies?
[21:49] <_charlie> - ?
[21:49] <eroomde> they need the real-time predictor
[21:49] <_charlie> LOL
[21:49] <eroomde> we had that with our parachute test vehicle
[21:49] <amell> the one in the white shirt
[21:49] <SpeedEvil> amell: at this point - only close analysis of the data can tell anything. This could vary from 'it does nothing whatsoever like we expected' to 'Oh, we forgot to tie on the second half'
[21:49] <_charlie> ed youre cracking me up
[21:49] <eroomde> the predictor ran about 6 cases all at once, once for each of the failure modes we could think of
[21:50] <eroomde> coming in completely hot
[21:50] <eroomde> coming in partially hot
[21:50] <eroomde> coming in nominally
[21:50] <eroomde> coming in with a high vehicle separation and a low vehicle separation
[21:50] <SpeedEvil> amell: the first is the worst, as then you need to work out why
[21:50] <eroomde> all of them had to be good before we uplinked the command to start the test
[21:50] <SpeedEvil> amell: and you may be utterly wrong
[21:50] <_charlie> yeah I can imagine
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[21:51] <amell> did you see where it broke, was it the fabric or the lines
[21:51] <eroomde> fabric
[21:51] <_charlie> I remember reading about someone launching rockets from a balloon... Know who they are?
[21:51] <eroomde> i didn;t see but i'm just pretty sure it's the fabric
[21:51] <eroomde> would be extremely off if it were a line
[21:51] <_charlie> looks like a split in a sausage
[21:51] <eroomde> _charlie: van allen (of belt fame) did that
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> Needs poked with a fork first so it doesn't split
[21:51] <eroomde> oh hai russss
[21:52] <amell> yep. it was a split.
[21:52] <_charlie> oh neat. I saw UoBSEDs were working on one, but ended it.
[21:52] <eroomde> you will probably be extremely dissapointed as i don't really use it or know how to use it
[21:52] <russss> heh
[21:52] <amell> got a freeze frame
[21:52] <_charlie> van allen so cool
[21:52] <amell> Speedevil: you may not be far wrong
[21:53] <amell> charlie: are you thinking of LOHAN?
[21:54] <michemto> Still... anyone knows the mass?
[21:55] <eroomde> 3 tonnes at launch says wiki
[21:55] <michemto> the launch mass was 3,120 but what would be the mass after rocketlaunch
[21:56] <eroomde> don't know
[21:56] <eroomde> so mach 4 is about 1000m/s at those temperatures
[21:56] <eroomde> the specific impulse of a solid rocket motor is let's say 250s
[21:57] <michemto> well yeah... with fuel this thing was 3088kg
[21:57] <michemto> but no idea how much without
[21:57] <michemto> http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/ldsd2015.pdf
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[21:58] <eroomde> so e^(1000/(250*9.8)) = about 1.5
[21:58] <_charlie> could be amell, thanks for the name I'll google it
[21:58] <eroomde> so the mass ratio is about 1.5
[21:58] <eroomde> suggestting about 2 tonnes empty
[21:58] <eroomde> that's my back of the envelope calc anyway
[21:59] <Ian_> Lucky peanuts have been sent away for analysis - suspect fakes
[21:59] <amell> watched the video several times. the split started at the edge of the chute, and spread up to the centre then it went to shreds
[22:00] <amell> seemed a very quick inflation compared to last time
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[22:01] <Ian_> The difference between the disk parachute and the ring parachute didn't seem so significantly different, except the makeup of the central sections.
[22:02] <Ian_> I expected something a little more radicle
[22:02] <eroomde> that is the difference
[22:02] <Ian_> * radical
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> slashdot has gone full slashdot
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> http://tech.slashdot.org/story/15/06/08/1934220/combating-climate-risks-with-3d-printing
[22:02] <Laurenceb_> lol top comment
[22:02] <eroomde> small changes in the distribution of the porosity in the canopy can have very large effects on the characteristics
[22:03] <Laurenceb_> thats something i found with rogallos
[22:04] <Laurenceb_> the nylon fabric on ebay is rejected parachute stuff
[22:05] <eroomde> the chute we tested was a ringslot design https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzEcSO6oDcY
[22:05] <Laurenceb_> took about 20% off the L/D compared to polythene
[22:06] <Ian_> At the speeds in question, I wonder if it would have the time to notice . . . somehow I expected an obviously more rugged looking design. I appreciate that brute force isn't quite a design technique,
[22:06] <Ian_> but expected something more akin to an aircraft brake chute - ribbon design
[22:06] <eroomde> every kg you take away from a scientific payload gets you in real trouble
[22:06] <SpeedEvil> Ian_: 'simple' 'traditional' chutes don't really work well in this regimen.
[22:07] <eroomde> your intuition about chutes just doesn't really serve you well for this kind of deployment
[22:07] <eroomde> the opening force profile is very strongly a function of:
[22:07] <eroomde> mach number
[22:07] <eroomde> ambient pressure
[22:07] <SpeedEvil> There are no 'traditional' chutes that deploy at ~M4
[22:07] <eroomde> dynamic pressure
[22:07] <eroomde> mass ratio
[22:07] <russss> a couple more kilograms of chute on Mars need quite a lot more kilograms of propellant to get there
[22:07] <Ian_> Seems they need a collection of ballutes!
[22:07] <eroomde> (ratio of mass of air envloped by chute compared to mass of system under a chute)
[22:07] <eroomde> they did use a ballute to deploy this one
[22:09] <amell> eroomde: how big is that chute in your youtube?
[22:09] <eroomde> i don't know much about ballutes but i suspect you'd need impractically many
[22:09] <eroomde> about 2.5m dia
[22:10] Nick change: Wiktor -> canis_malus
[22:11] <Lunar_Lander> good night
[22:11] <Ian_> Goo night Martian_Lander
[22:11] Nick change: canis_malus -> Wiktor
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[22:14] <michemto> Well... it's getting late also in Estonia, so good night from here too! :)
[22:16] <eroomde> michemto: i didn't do gravity losses or drag losses in my envelope calc
[22:16] <eroomde> so perhaps more like 1.5tonnes of propellant
[22:16] <eroomde> so maybe about 1.5-1.8tonnes at chute deployment?
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[22:24] <arko> http://i.imgur.com/JSWyHzP.png
[22:24] <arko> epic
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[22:26] <daveake> nice
[22:26] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[22:30] <michal_f> hans pfaall :) guy who escaped to moon with a balloon
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[22:45] <fsphil> http://planetary.s3.amazonaws.com/assets/images/spacecraft/2015/20150608_ls-a-partial-01P02_1600x1200_30-1_T0_47_33_D20_0_70_out_1.jpg
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[22:45] <fsphil> someone should've used SSDV :)
[22:46] <fsphil> sail's been deployed though. good news finally
[22:47] <SpeedEvil> yay
[22:49] <fsphil> http://i.imgur.com/c1OlWbq.png
[22:49] <fsphil> Pluto has a dark side
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[22:58] <amell> fsphil: but pluto rotates&
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[22:59] <amell> about once every 6 days iirc
[22:59] <fsphil> on its side
[22:59] <fsphil> but there is a pretty dark spot in that image
[23:00] <amell> isnt that approaching from the side?
[23:00] <fsphil> nah it's heading straight for it
[23:00] <amell> i dont quite follow how that light pattern was generated.
[23:01] <amell> if the probe was coming from the sun then you would assume full disk illumination
[23:01] <fsphil> it is the full disk
[23:01] <fsphil> you can see all of it
[23:01] <fsphil> it almost looks like a cresent with something illuminating the other side
[23:01] <amell> why would it be dark at the top right?
[23:02] <fsphil> something dark on the surface
[23:02] <amell> okay, so light vs dark matter.
[23:02] <amell> quite unusual&
[23:03] <amell> the light part could be ice and the dark rock.
[23:03] <fsphil> possibly
[23:03] <fsphil> they did suggest it had an ice cap before
[23:03] <fsphil> and I dunno what the orientation of this image is
[23:03] <amell> are you sure that this image is just of pluto?
[23:03] <fsphil> what else would it be?
[23:04] <amell> charon and pluto have a binary system wobbly orbit thing going on.
[23:04] <amell> could it be charon in front or something
[23:04] <fsphil> charon is below it in the raw frame
[23:04] <fsphil> http://pluto.jhuapl.edu/soc/Pluto-Encounter/data/pluto/level2/lor/jpeg/029596/lor_0295961398_0x630_sci_2.jpg
[23:04] <fsphil> you can make out the dark spot there too
[23:05] <amell> ok. not long now then....
[23:05] <amell> i think we will be shocked.
[23:06] <amell> btw, pluto isnt in the same orbital plane as earth could that explain the dark area
[23:06] <fsphil> how so?
[23:07] <amell> we would be approaching pluto at an angle, because the orbital plane is different. i.e we wouldnt be coming from the sun as such.
[23:07] <amell> hang on, looking for a diagram of new horizons path
[23:08] <fsphil> if it was a phase in the image, you wouldn't see anything on that side
[23:08] <fsphil> you can make out the full disk
[23:10] <amell> yeah, hmm, i think to be honest we need more exposures to come up with more theories.
[23:10] <amell> a movie over a week would probably give a lot of clues
[23:12] <amell> the images at http://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasa-s-new-horizons-sees-more-detail-as-it-draws-closer-to-pluto are not showing any dark side
[23:12] <fsphil> yea it doesn't look like it'll see any real phases until a few hours before flyby
[23:14] <amell> do you know how often they image on approach? i keep checking to see if theres any new ones but none
[23:14] <fsphil> http://pluto.jhuapl.edu/soc/Pluto-Encounter/data/pluto/level2/lor/jpeg/029603/lor_0296033398_0x630_sci_1.jpg
[23:14] <fsphil> that was taken yesterday
[23:16] <fsphil> this is the last classic planet to be visited. end of an era
[23:17] <amell> yeah, btw, im not convinced the image shows enough detail to be able to tell if pluto is round.
[23:17] <amell> we might yet be surprised and find a peanut shaped planet, like the comet&
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[23:18] <amell> but from the hubble images, yes, id be very surprised if it wasnt round
[23:18] <fsphil> they talked about this at a press event, it's pretty much spherical
[23:19] <amell> doesnt this give you pause? http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/1-opnav3_barycen_noano-1041.gif
[23:20] <amell> why would it be spherical if charon is pulling it around like that
[23:20] <fsphil> that was why they where talking about it
[23:20] <SpeedEvil> Pluto is too large to be non-rpound
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[23:20] <SpeedEvil> If it's not round, it's artificial
[23:20] <fsphil> it looks lumpy but it's just surface brightness variations
[23:21] <amell> planets are only round because they have a constant force of gravity
[23:21] <fsphil> charon isn't pulling it around. they're both orbiting a common point
[23:21] <amell> if charon is distorting the rotation of pluto like that, a proper dual binary system, which isnt anywhere else in the solar system
[23:22] <amell> anyway, all will become clear, cant wait :)
[23:22] <amell> hang on, are you saying charon is always facing the same point on pluto?
[23:22] <SpeedEvil> amell: unless it's rotationally locked, it can't be massively deformed
[23:23] <fsphil> they're both tidally locked
[23:23] <SpeedEvil> amell: because that would cause truly massive tidal heating
[23:23] <amell> really? oh. i hadnt seen that.
[23:23] <amell> so its the same as earth moon system - is that definite or just a theory?
[23:23] <fsphil> both pluto and charon have the same face towards eachother
[23:24] <fsphil> neither move in the others sky
[23:24] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: I forgot that
[23:24] <fsphil> which I think is unique in the solar system
[23:24] <amell> okay, so there could be some deformation as a result?
[23:25] <amell> gravity of charon is consistently applied to the same point on plutos surface
[23:26] <fsphil> yea but they're both very small
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[23:28] <fsphil> the moon is pretty round desite the earth
[23:30] <amell> this HST 1994 image looks very round. http://solarviews.com/raw/pluto/hstpluto.gif
[23:31] <amell> bear in mind that pluto and charon are 12,200 miles apart, and that gives you context of how small it is!
[23:32] <amell> there was talk of pluto and charon sharing a common atmosphere
[23:34] <fsphil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pluto_map.jpg
[23:34] <fsphil> HST shows some nice dark spots too
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[23:35] <fsphil> "Pluto is one of the most contrastive bodies in the Solar System, with as much contrast as Saturn's moon Iapetus"
[23:35] <amell> the surface pictures could be pretty wacko.
[23:36] <fsphil> yea apparently has colour variations too
[23:36] <fsphil> it's a really weird object
[23:36] <amell> only 25 more days :)
[23:37] <fsphil> I'm hoping there is enough atmosphere to give it some weather
[23:37] <fsphil> the ice cap is encouraging
[23:37] <amell> i hope we can see the surface. venus is boring from above
[23:37] <SpeedEvil> The atmosphere if present will be very, very, very, very thin
[23:37] <amell> a pluto lander would have been nice.
[23:38] <SpeedEvil> A pluto lander requires nuclear propulsion - pretty much
[23:38] <amell> but i guess you cant land on something youve never seen before. next time perhaps
[23:38] <SpeedEvil> Landing on it isn't the issue.
[23:39] <amell> delta V change
[23:40] <SpeedEvil> You need ~15km/s to land on pluto/charon
[23:40] <SpeedEvil> perhaps 16
[23:40] <SpeedEvil> From new horizons
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[23:41] <SpeedEvil> That's a total delta-v of about 30km/s
[23:41] <fsphil> or a very very long flight out to it
[23:41] <amell> new horizons has some more stops after pluto anyway
[23:42] <amell> january 2019 for the next stop off.
[23:42] <amell> PT1 in the Kuiper belt.
[23:43] <amell> http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2014/10151024-finally-new-horizons-has-a-kbo.html
[23:44] <SpeedEvil> though not so much 'stop'
[23:44] <SpeedEvil> are you familiar with dusty fission?
[23:45] <amell> I am now, thanks to wikipedia
[23:46] <amell> will look tomorrow, bed now. nite
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[00:00] --- Tue Jun 9 2015