highaltitude.log.20150603

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[01:33] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-46 after 0315 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-46
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[05:45] <Vaizki> woop woop ps-46 is coming 'round nicely
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[06:04] <jcoxon> morning all
[06:04] <jcoxon> go PS-46
[06:06] <eroomde> jcoxon: just the man
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[07:31] <NSPACE1> hi guys just a question on tracking with dl fligi.
[07:34] <NSPACE1> i use the hab tracking mode, and set my location, i get full signals with green packet data received however I get the payload callsign,and the checksum but the time, latitude,longitude, altitude, bearing distance and elevation data is blank.
[07:36] <NSPACE1> hello anybody on irc?
[07:36] <Upu> you haven't selected a payload document so it doesn't know how to decode it
[07:37] <Upu> 177 people NSPACE1 :) just early on a weekday
[07:37] <NSPACE1> it was for jackal4 that launched on Saturday.
[07:38] <NSPACE1> ok these guys probably did not do a payload document it was for a pico ballloon. Noted i will do it next time.
[07:39] <NSPACE1> It was good to test my new tracking setup. And to tweak the system. Thanks guys.
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[08:13] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PI_SKY_TEST after 0310 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PI_SKY_TEST
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[09:30] <infaddict> morning. question for CUSF guys. could i use your launch site at fairly short notice? e.g. if my Oxford predictions are really bad a few days before launch.
[09:35] <eroomde> it's probably strongly a function of specific dates
[09:35] <eroomde> e.g. if people are on holiday
[09:35] <eroomde> or have exams
[09:35] <eroomde> or whatever
[09:36] <infaddict> right, i wasnt sure of rules. guessing NOTAM names people who have to be present etc.
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[09:40] <jonsowman> correct
[09:42] <infaddict> ok thx, not sure if people are around weekends or just weekdays either.
[09:42] <daveake> <pedant> Actually that's the permission that names people; the NOTAM doesn't </pedant>
[09:43] <infaddict> just thinking of backup options to try and launch within my 2 day window, as i have travelled down south with a car full of kit.
[09:43] <daveake> You should have a pretty good idea at T-3 days, so before you go anywhere
[09:44] <infaddict> agreed
[09:44] <daveake> And the CAA have asked for 72 hours notice for the "permanent" sites
[09:44] <infaddict> ah right, didnt know that
[09:45] <infaddict> so that rules out a last minute switch then
[09:45] <daveake> Yup
[09:45] <daveake> Well
[09:45] <craag> Hmm so golden cross is on par with the permanent sites not then, bar the restrictions.
[09:45] <daveake> The CAA have been known to produce a NOTAM on the launch day
[09:45] <daveake> But best not to go down that route too often :)
[09:45] <craag> s/not/now/
[09:47] <eroomde> you can ask for the notam anyway
[09:47] <infaddict> so what do CAA prefer... defer launch to later date (e.g. few days time or next weekend)... or move launch site to somewhere else
[09:47] <eroomde> as a precaution
[09:47] <daveake> Well, what DM told me was "I want to reduce my workload so I'd like to give you permanent permission. You don't need to produce an application but instead send an email notice at least 72 hours before the flight" (my wording from memory)
[09:47] <eroomde> and just not launch if plan A works
[09:51] Action: Laurenceb is reading reaction engines patents
[09:51] <Laurenceb> very very nicely presented
[09:51] <Laurenceb> i like the diagrams
[09:53] <eroomde> hhhcool Laurenceb
[09:54] <Laurenceb> were you involved at all?
[09:54] Action: Laurenceb is writing a patent atm
[09:54] <eroomde> not in writing a patent
[09:54] <eroomde> that's a massive waste of life
[09:54] <Laurenceb> haha
[09:54] <eroomde> they're about as obnoxious a technical document as is possible to create
[09:55] <Laurenceb> true
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[09:55] <eroomde> as for was i involved in what the patents describe, well what the hell do you think i've spent the last 3 yrs doing :p
[09:56] <dbrooke> I'm going to a talk on SKYLON/SABRE tomorrow
[09:56] <Laurenceb> who by?
[09:56] <dbrooke> Robert Bond
[09:56] <Laurenceb> wow nice
[09:56] <fsphil> you need to find the person writing the patents, give them our condolences
[09:56] <Laurenceb> lol
[09:57] <daveake> I worked on a project with a guy who was always writing patents
[09:57] <eroomde> dbrooke: he's a project manager
[09:57] <daveake> It was bad enough reading them for him
[09:57] <eroomde> it might not be the most technical talk
[09:58] <dbrooke> eroomde: I did wonder, but it's for IET so hopefully he'll tech it up a bit
[09:58] <Laurenceb> bbl
[09:58] <eroomde> dbrooke: ...
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[10:00] <dbrooke> well I expect it will still be interesting enough
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[10:03] <eroomde> i could do one at a ukhas conf one year
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[10:42] <eroomde> i found some old stuff that might be interesting - this is the mechnanism we used to detach a nose-cone from our drop vehicle to deploy a secondary parachute https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqdSkbHNLyw&feature=youtu.be
[10:42] <eroomde> the gold things are pyrotechnic protractors
[10:44] <eroomde> and this is the mechanism we used to attach a parachute to the bulkhead such that it could take tens of kN of opening force, but then be released lower down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqOyx0Cx4tM&feature=youtu.be
[10:45] <eroomde> also using a pyrotechnic protractor
[10:45] <eroomde> they're basically the shizzle
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[11:22] <LunarWork> hello
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[14:01] <ok1cdj> GA all
[14:03] <ok1cdj> please approve my pico flight during this weekend RAJ-0 ID: bc5af6fb4d18a68721d6fde972e88c6c thanks
[14:03] <Upu> done ok1cdj
[14:05] <ok1cdj> thanks..
[14:07] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[14:13] <ok1cdj> bye
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[15:18] <nickjohnson> Simple DSP question: Suppose I have an ADC sampling baseband at high speed, and I know there's a carrier wave I want to identify the ampltiude and phase of. What's the easiest way to do this?
[15:18] <nickjohnson> I know I can get ampltiude with goertzel, but I don't think that gets me phase
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> nickjohnson: For each sample, work out what phase this is with respect to your virtual clock.
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> Multiply into I and Q components, and add.
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> After a period of integration, the amplitude and phase pop out of the sum.
[15:20] <SpeedEvil> (with respect to the virtual clock)
[15:20] <nickjohnson> Ah, that makes sense
[15:20] <nickjohnson> By "pop out of the sum", I assume you mean that the amplitude is the absolute value of the vector described by I and Q
[15:20] <nickjohnson> And the phase is the angle
[15:20] <SpeedEvil> yes
[15:21] <nickjohnson> Now the problem I have is the same one that prevented me from just sampling at 4 times the source frequency: my system clock is not a clean multiple of the sample clock :/
[15:22] <SpeedEvil> There are several ways round that.
[15:22] <nickjohnson> I know that if I compute the sin and cosine at each sample that will average out, but that's got to be expensive
[15:22] <SpeedEvil> Do you understand how fractional n sythesis works?
[15:22] <nickjohnson> It's a PLL technique that works by dithering between two integer divider values, right?
[15:22] <SpeedEvil> basically, yes
[15:25] <nickjohnson> I don't see how I can incorporate a PLL into my MCU system, though
[15:26] <nickjohnson> It seems to me that having a cosine lookup table and picking the closest value for the current phase would be a close approximation
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> What is the MCU, and how fast are you trying to samaple?
[15:26] <nickjohnson> It's a PSoC 4200
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> you also don't need to get it exact.
[15:26] <nickjohnson> And at least 240KHz to get the 60KHz signal I care about
[15:26] <nickjohnson> I do need to get it exact, because the goal is to use this to discipline an oscillator against a broadcast frequency reference :)
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> If you want to measure the phase and strength of that signal - say 50 times a second - then you can accept a few degrees of drift relative to your virtual clock per sample period
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[15:28] <SpeedEvil> And the output will just 'rotate' per measurement - and you can then integrate that seperately dealing with a tiny fraction of the data
[15:28] <nickjohnson> Well, I thought that instead of sampling discretely, I'd just IIR filter the I and Q values
[15:28] <nickjohnson> Since I'm using it to generate a slow-changing trim value for the oscillator
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> The easiest way is if you can skip this.
[15:29] <nickjohnson> But over the long run, my virtual sample clock _does_ need to have a frequency that's exactly right relative to the system clock
[15:29] <nickjohnson> Skip what?
[15:31] <SpeedEvil> For example - arrange a 24MHz oscillator / 100 or whatever to directly have the sample rate at 240khz
[15:31] <nickjohnson> ah
[15:31] <SpeedEvil> Then you don't need to do any messing with cosines
[15:31] <nickjohnson> The end goal is to generate a 10MHz reference signal
[15:31] <nickjohnson> So the oscillator I have is that
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> You can for example set the ADC clock sample divider - between 41 and 42 - 41,41,42 - and that will be bang on.
[15:33] <nickjohnson> I could do it by dithering as you suggested - have a timer that... yeah
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> (for 240khz
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> Also, you can cheat.
[15:34] <nickjohnson> Though I suspect instead I want to run the ADC clock much faster and trigger a new sample at that frequency, since the ADC takes multiple clocks
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> If you have a nice input filter, so you know you only have 55-65khz energy, then you can sample that and fully reconstruct a incoming 60khz signal at 20khz or so
[15:34] <nickjohnson> And generating a 1.08MHz clock is even nastier
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[15:34] <nickjohnson> I was going to build an xtal input filter, but it'd be nice if I can avoid that
[15:34] <nickjohnson> Fewer external parts :)
[15:35] <SpeedEvil> There are 60khz crystals available that can be used as filters
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[15:41] <nickjohnson> SpeedEvil: But if I'm doing that, I may as well square up the output of the filter with a comparator and trigger on that
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[15:52] <anerdev> Hey guys =D
[15:52] <anerdev> there is anyone ?
[15:54] <fsphil> we may never know
[15:55] <Kryczek> I heard rumours of people coming here
[15:59] <daveake> <Sepp>Those rumours are absolutely false</Sepp>
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[16:13] <anerdev> LOL
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[16:16] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03kmha51gpyu030281_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=kmha51gpyu030281_chase
[16:16] _charlie (80f3028d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.243.2.141) joined #highaltitude.
[16:17] <daveake> snappy
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[16:17] <_charlie> hi
[16:17] <eroomde> greetings
[16:17] <fsphil> howdy
[16:20] <ibanezmatt13> Does anybody have any ideas for how you could achieve a steady spin at a roughly constant rate throghout a flight?
[16:21] <eroomde> fans
[16:21] <eroomde> a little motor
[16:21] <SpeedEvil> EM drive
[16:21] <eroomde> some angled fins on the payload
[16:22] <ibanezmatt13> I was thinking that, but what would happen near max height?
[16:22] <Laurenceb__> lol speedevil
[16:22] <ibanezmatt13> No air
[16:22] <eroomde> not much would happen
[16:22] <_charlie> you guys joke about EM drives, but I have one working here, suspended in my doorway
[16:22] <SpeedEvil> a very tiny fan will work
[16:22] <Laurenceb__> wait you are the nasaspaceflight guy?
[16:22] <Laurenceb__> i dont believe you
[16:22] <_charlie> Kappa
[16:23] <eroomde> EM is about to drive
[16:23] <eroomde> to a pub tho
[16:24] <ibanezmatt13> same here actually
[16:24] <Laurenceb__> https://hackaday.io/project/5596-em-drive
[16:24] <Laurenceb__> cant fault the test rig
[16:24] <Laurenceb__> thats hawt
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[16:25] <_charlie> people have nice imaginations for sure
[16:26] <eroomde> holy cow
[16:26] <eroomde> that test rig
[16:26] <eroomde> needs moar veroboard
[16:27] <_charlie> XD
[16:39] <_charlie> so...
[16:41] <nickjohnson> SpeedEvil: So, the "multiply by I and Q virtual clocks" method seems strictly simpler than Goertzel at doing frequency detection
[16:41] <nickjohnson> Or am I mistaken?
[16:49] <eroomde> don't really see much different personally
[16:49] <eroomde> i/q method will also give you phase
[16:49] <eroomde> (compared to your local clock)
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[17:05] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[17:10] <_charlie> hi
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[17:16] <SpeedEvil> http://news.sciencemag.org/physics/2015/06/mystery-company-blazes-trail-fusion-energy
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[18:15] <Vaizki> I'm very happy to see so many small scale fusion projects. of course I'm hoping one of them will work out but also great to see serious money in the private sector put into it even if none of these pans out.
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[18:40] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03INFCU1_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=INFCU1_chase
[18:41] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03INFCU1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=INFCU1
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[18:50] <anerdev> Guys, in september I will do an another launch
[18:50] <infaddict> first long range test not going well! Signal fades when I move more than about 300 metres from payload. Still have line of sight, but payload only 1.5m off ground.
[18:50] <anerdev> but I need a better sensors
[18:51] <infaddict> Using car mag mount but no HabAmp on this test.
[18:55] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
[18:59] <infaddict> So a bit worried about long range TX capabilities! Gonna head home and check antenna continuity. Could just be the fact its on ground.
[18:59] <infaddict> Any experiences of how far on flat ground a NTX2B should transmit?
[19:00] <daveake> What receiver? What do you mean exactly by "signal fades"?
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[19:05] <infaddict> sry daveake was driving short distance home... its a rtl sdr dongle going to a 270 mini mag mount.
[19:05] <infaddict> i have a HabAmp but stupidly didnt bring correct lead with me to test with that tonight
[19:06] <infaddict> by signal fades, I mean I have nice strong signal (high peaks on the graph) when around 100m away. As I move further away the peaks drop and waterfall fades...
[19:06] <daveake> I've not used one of those for tracking
[19:06] <infaddict> eventually at about 300m the signal is so bad decoding stops
[19:06] <infaddict> and all trace on waterfall is gone
[19:06] <daveake> ok that's not good enough
[19:06] <infaddict> so i could see the payload, nothing blocking it
[19:07] <infaddict> but like i say, it was just hanging on a tripod.
[19:07] <infaddict> about 1.5m off ground
[19:07] <daveake> If you have LOS then the range should be many, many miles
[19:07] <infaddict> so i was thinking it should xmit for miles with line of sight - is that right?
[19:07] <infaddict> ok thx, you confirmed my fears
[19:07] <daveake> I had LOS with a payload that landed on the side of a hill. We were on the next hill 3 miles away. Signal was very very strong.
[19:08] <infaddict> so i have a problem somewhere. tx antenna, receiver itself, rx antenna etc.
[19:08] <daveake> Usually if you get a signal 3 miles away after landing, it's in a tree :/
[19:08] <infaddict> ha!
[19:10] <infaddict> so firstly i will check continuity between NTX2B and the payload antenna elements
[19:10] <infaddict> i of course did that during assembly and it was fine, but will do it again
[19:10] <infaddict> i have a feeling its the dongle. wonder if anybody has tracked long distance with one successfully?
[19:11] <infaddict> could be time to buy a AirSpy or similar ;-/
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[19:18] <infaddict> has anybody done mobile tracking with FCB+ or Airspy successfully? if i rule out everything else, i might have to try an upgraded receiver.
[19:18] <infaddict> so could go FCB/Airspy route or a "real" receiver
[19:20] <daveake> I prefer to use a real receiver when chasing
[19:21] <infaddict> mmm most people i've seen with FCB/Airspy is at home
[19:21] <daveake> You can just pick it up and go df-ing ... you can hook it up to a phone or tablet to decode
[19:21] <infaddict> yer, do you need a line/mic in for that? typically my macbook aint got one
[19:22] <Vaizki> infaddict: did you pump up RF gain in the sdr software?
[19:22] <daveake> mattbrejza's rather excellent Android app will decode very well just using the microphone
[19:22] <infaddict> Vaizki: yep i moved the gain slowly up all the way to max and didnt help ;-(
[19:22] <daveake> I have sqrt(0) knowledge about macbooks, but many devices these days have a combined audio out/in jack
[19:23] <infaddict> but my testing was cut short by an impatient and cold wife who was put in charge of protecting the payload!
[19:23] <infaddict> i even had a seat for her any everything ;-)
[19:23] <Vaizki> next time bring a sleeping bag
[19:23] <daveake> you could try another one
[19:23] <daveake> SDR not wife
[19:23] <infaddict> lol
[19:24] <infaddict> yep so i think i will try my second SDR. i will also do a better/longer test with more time to fiddle with gain and other settings. also check hardware.
[19:24] <infaddict> if after that i cant fix it, will look for receiver. any recommendations for entry level receiver for tracking?
[19:25] <daveake> Yupiteru 7100 / AOR AR8000 / ICOM IC-R10
[19:25] <infaddict> thx daveake
[19:25] <infaddict> also just thought i shouldve taken Upu's backup tracker he loaned me. That should prove if its my TX or RX.
[19:25] <infaddict> if his keeps a stronger signal etc.
[19:27] <Vaizki> so the rx side, your magmount is a quarter wave 70cm/2m whip?
[19:28] <Vaizki> with SMA connector adapted to what on the RTL dongle? mcx?
[19:30] <infaddict> Vaizki: its this antenna http://cpc.farnell.com/watson/wsm-270/wsm-270-mini-mag-antenna/dp/IT44456
[19:30] <infaddict> with convertor to the mcx
[19:31] <infaddict> of course worked great in the house hehe
[19:31] <infaddict> and to about 250 meters
[19:31] <infaddict> didnt try Yagi today but will do so to see if any better
[19:31] <infaddict> brb in 5
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[19:46] <Vaizki> infaddict: ok so do you receive anything else on the 70cm band?
[19:46] <Vaizki> or is the waterfall empty?
[19:47] <infaddict> not much at all. even when I went to the cliffs to track that "nearby" balloon (still 100 mile away) I got nothing with the Yagi
[19:47] <infaddict> I can on occasion seen faint signals
[19:47] <infaddict> but this is why we test things!
[19:47] <infaddict> at least I can do something about it now
[19:48] <infaddict> i'm starting to think its the dongle but will eliminate other things first
[19:48] <Vaizki> maybe try to see if you can hear something on that band.. it's full of weather stations, baby monitors etc..
[19:48] <Vaizki> and HAM stuff like DMR should be there
[19:48] <Vaizki> http://www.dmruk.net/
[19:49] <Vaizki> any of those close by?
[19:49] <infaddict> so basically i should find *something* betwen 430Mhz and 440Mhz right? even if feint.
[19:49] <infaddict> checking that site
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[19:51] <Vaizki> well upu posted that waterfall of the 434MHz band at his house.. let me find it..
[19:51] <infaddict> nearest on that site is 100 mile away
[19:51] <infaddict> remember i dont have a roof mounted proper antenna at home
[19:51] <infaddict> so just Yagi or mag mount
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[19:52] <Vaizki> http://i.imgur.com/JYQSg7R.jpg
[19:53] <Vaizki> ok well then the DMR repeaters are not good beacons for you
[19:53] <Vaizki> that was Upu's.. check out 433.900.. .
[19:53] <Vaizki> that's just nasty :)
[19:54] <infaddict> yep so his is full of life. mine isnt ;-(
[19:54] <infaddict> which could be receiver or antenna or both
[19:54] <Vaizki> well my 433.900 is a lot more quiet: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/367935/Espoo-70cm-ISM.png
[19:55] <infaddict> on my drive out today i spotted a house about 1 mile from home with huge Yagi antennas mounted 30ft up on poles in his garden. Clearly a radio guy! Might knock on his door and ask a favour ;-)
[19:55] <theRealSIbot> In real units: 30 ft = 9.14 m
[19:55] <Vaizki> but there's still something there always
[19:55] <infaddict> yer so you have 4 peaks there
[19:55] <infaddict> i only get my payload
[19:55] <Vaizki> no but look at the waterfall
[19:56] <infaddict> yep you have quite a bit on there
[19:56] <Vaizki> the signals from weather stations etc ISM stuff are very short in duration
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[19:56] <infaddict> mmm ive left mine running for ages watching and never see any bursts like that
[19:56] <infaddict> but that testing was mostly with v small test antenna. i can repeat it with 1/4 wave mag mount on car and drive around a bit.
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[20:01] <Vaizki> infaddict: http://i.imgur.com/6KTj9pi.jpg
[20:02] <Vaizki> sometimes my waterfall looks.. like.. that..
[20:02] <Vaizki> anyway, unless you live in an isolated area you should be picking up stuff on the ISM band with that dongle & antenna
[20:04] <infaddict> thx Vaizki appreciate it. i'm n a large town so should get something! will do some more testing and also research budget handheld receivers whilst i am at it.
[20:04] <infaddict> this wouldve been rather unfortunate if i had launched and lost the balloon after 300 metres ;-/
[20:07] <Vaizki> are you using a mac and gqrx btw?
[20:07] <infaddict> yes
[20:08] <Vaizki> ok, so then it can't be a screwed up zadig install
[20:13] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PI_SKY_TEST after 0310 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PI_SKY_TEST
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[20:30] <SP3OSJ> #habhub
[20:38] <daveake> You have to /join #habhub
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[21:55] <_charlie> dont you just love it when Design rule check says your components are too close by 0.001 mm :P
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[22:08] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03broadway_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=broadway_chase
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[22:23] <pd3t> !flights
[22:23] <SpacenearUS> 03pd3t: Current flights: 03SP3OSJ 144.7MHz 100bd/450/7n2 10(c048)
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[23:26] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
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[23:33] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-46 after 036 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-46
[23:38] <_charlie> nice one most impressive
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[23:58] <SpeedEvil> Just wait till B64 wakes up. :)
[00:00] --- Thu Jun 4 2015