highaltitude.log.20150517

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[00:08] <adamgreig> sigh, antennas, how do they work https://www.dropbox.com/sc/gnbvdynipnw0u1d/AAAo3gA2bDH_blzrQncaAf8Wa
[00:09] <adamgreig> i think my coax is radiating..
[00:09] <Lunar_Lander> good night!
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[00:14] <Charlie_> lol i remember when I was making a time domain reflectometer and the pulses being sent down the coax were making the lights flicker XD
[00:14] <Laurenceb_> wtf kind of power were you putting down there?!
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[00:25] <SpeedEvil> All of it, I think.
[00:25] <Kryczek> that's what she said
[00:27] <Charlie_> Kappa
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[02:14] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KK6MIR-11 after 032 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KK6MIR-11
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[09:26] <Herman_> gm all
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[09:27] <edmoore> richardeoin, that atmel chip is rather nice!
[09:29] <edmoore> i've been using an stm32 cortex m0+ in a few projects and like it (especially the st's timer peripherals - some of the best i've seen) but they don't come 32qfn packages with such fast cpu or that amount of flash
[09:30] <edmoore> also the DA converter on the stm32s is 12bit which is enough to directly do some of the finer-spaced mfsk modes directly into an ntx2 (if that's what you want to use)
[09:30] <edmoore> but that's not really an issue if you use an si chip directly
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[09:36] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[09:36] <nick_> I'm putting together a board for the cheapest stm32f0 at the moment.
[09:36] <edmoore> which one is that nick_?
[09:36] <edmoore> and what's the inteded application?
[09:37] <nick_> Just to have something easier to play with.
[09:37] <nick_> And to show some people I work with that it's easy to lay out and program microcontrollers.
[09:37] <edmoore> have you got an stm32l0 discovery board?
[09:37] <edmoore> super cheaps and an onboard debugger
[09:37] <edmoore> ah right
[09:37] <edmoore> so it's as much for the pcb fab side
[09:38] <nick_> For example, on our current board we have something like £10 worth of LVDS drivers to talk long distnace to a few chips.
[09:38] <nick_> Whereas we could just talk to an m0 that talks to the chips, massively reducing the cabling to the board and saving some money.
[09:39] <edmoore> uhuh
[09:39] <edmoore> lvds to the one m0?
[09:39] <nick_> yeah
[09:39] <nick_> Or even not lvds, depending on the comms method.
[09:39] <nick_> They have to be LVDS because they are SPI lines
[09:42] <edmoore> is this for something particle-related?
[09:42] <nick_> I also want to play around with different powering options and see how long it can last.
[09:43] <nick_> Well, that board is, yes.
[09:43] <nick_> It's bias control + amplification + digitisation of 32 silicon photomultipliers.
[09:43] <nick_> Although it needs redesigning due to a horrendous level of noise.
[09:44] <edmoore> :)
[09:44] <edmoore> like life
[09:45] <edmoore> have you bought AoE 3rd Ed. ?
[09:45] <nick_> We're not entirely sure why, we think the amplifier is bad.
[09:45] <edmoore> good chapter on low noise design
[09:45] <nick_> AoE =?
[09:45] <edmoore> Art of Electronics
[09:46] <nick_> But we pick up a few oscillations, one some boards they are ~2 photon amplitude :(
[09:46] <edmoore> if it's just obviously way worse than it should be it might be an oscillating power line
[09:46] <edmoore> i had something wailing away at 500MHz on a CFA power line once, couldn't see it with a scope
[09:46] <edmoore> i have the right scope now tho :)
[09:47] <fsphil> my AoE never arrived. not happy :/
[09:47] <nick_> Myself and another post doc did some reading around the issue.
[09:48] <nick_> It seems our EE did some things everyone says are bad.
[09:48] <edmoore> lol
[09:48] <nick_> Basically the circuit is inherently bad. Huge oscillations when first used.
[09:48] <edmoore> also have a read of Linear Tech's application note AN47
[09:48] <edmoore> by Jim Williams
[09:48] <edmoore> it's about high speed amplifier design
[09:48] <nick_> Which can only be reduced with a tiny cap between the amplifier inputs.
[09:48] <nick_> Which then makes it basically unstable.
[09:49] <edmoore> and there's a large gallery of symptoms, causes and fixes
[09:49] <edmoore> fsphil, chase that
[09:49] <SpeedEvil> '<nick_> They have to be LVDS because they are SPI lines' - err - wut?
[09:49] <edmoore> tho it's too heavy to take to LA anyway
[09:49] <nick_> Our EE is kinda weird.
[09:49] <edmoore> SpeedEvil, that makes sense please don't be noisy
[09:49] <nick_> SpeedEvil: because SPI won't work directly over the distances we use.
[09:49] <SpeedEvil> sorry - I must have misssed the context
[09:49] <SpeedEvil> ah
[09:49] <SpeedEvil> fair enough
[09:49] <nick_> Whereas others could.
[09:50] <SpeedEvil> Should have read up more.
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[09:50] <SpeedEvil> http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/app-notes/index.mvp/id/5450 is also useful.
[09:50] <edmoore> that is a good app note
[09:50] <edmoore> from maxim
[09:50] <SpeedEvil> On grounding mixed signal chips, and why obvious things are not obvious
[09:50] <edmoore> here is AN47 www.linear.com/docs/4138
[09:51] <SpeedEvil> Linear, analog, TI all have decent app-notes on this sort of thing
[09:51] <SpeedEvil> Often quite old
[09:51] <edmoore> note the app note is 132 pages long - it's not your avergae app note
[09:51] <nick_> I think our EE inherited parts of the circuit, grabbed other examples and mashed them together.
[09:52] <SpeedEvil> nick_: how most design is done.
[09:52] <nick_> And there are some things that make it inherently tricky.
[09:52] <SpeedEvil> Thinking is hard.
[09:52] <SpeedEvil> Cost minimisation of high performance stuff is really hard.
[09:52] <nick_> Like the fact that it's trying to amplify a ~mV signal on a 70 V baseline.
[09:52] <edmoore> yeah ^
[09:52] <edmoore> what kind of bandwidth do you need?
[09:53] <SpeedEvil> There are stupid solutions - for example - isolated ADCs.
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[09:55] <nick_> High bandwidth, the signals are ~10ns pulses of pC
[09:56] <edmoore> do you just need to 'see' that there's a pulse?
[09:56] <SpeedEvil> Do you actually need 100MHz or so digitisation, or are you trying to catch times of easily triggerable signals?
[09:56] <edmoore> or do you need to preserve the shape?
[09:56] <nick_> No, we need to measure the amplitude of it.
[09:56] <nick_> So we digitise at 65 MS/s
[09:57] <nick_> We'd like to shape it to slow it down a little to hit a speed where we don't burn so much cash on the ADCs.
[09:57] <SpeedEvil> In principle, a sample/hold or ideal diode might let you catch the amplitude without digitisation.
[09:57] <edmoore> that sounds fun (incidently have you seen the lpc43xx parts which are cortex m4 with an 80ms/s adc built in?)
[09:57] <SpeedEvil> nick_: are the shapes of the waveform consistent?
[09:57] <SpeedEvil> nick_: that is - is there any information in the shape, or is it purely amplitude based
[09:57] <nick_> edmoore: yeah, I've got 3 4370 boards on my desk.
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[09:57] <edmoore> nick_ nice :)
[09:58] <nick_> SpeedEvil: no, we need to see the shape to distinguish between two types of particle detection.
[09:58] <SpeedEvil> The 4370 looks awesome. I wish I had time to play with it.
[09:58] <SpeedEvil> nick_: ah
[09:58] <nick_> All this was easy when we just borrowed some Caen digitisers, but we cannot afford 3000 channels with them.
[09:58] <SpeedEvil> That makes circuitry to do it harder.
[09:58] <edmoore> 65msps implies an amplification bandwidth of 30MHz ish, which is only really enough to capture a rise time of about 10ns
[09:59] <edmoore> but might not get that much detail within a 10ns-long pulse
[09:59] <nick_> I'm being slow with the 4370. So far I've just about managed to dump data from the HSADC into a ring buffer.
[09:59] <edmoore> to a first-order anal extraction anyway
[09:59] <nick_> edmoore: we don't care so much about the rise time.
[09:59] <nick_> It's the shape of the signal we care about. Basically, are there a number of pulses in a short time, or just one.
[09:59] <SpeedEvil> nick_: Are these pulses sparse over channels, or may many occur at once
[10:00] <edmoore> sure but i'm using it really as a proxy for 'features' within something of 10ns duration
[10:00] <edmoore> ah ok
[10:00] <nick_> Not features wuthin 10ns
[10:00] <edmoore> sorry for all the questions nick_, it's all quite interesting
[10:00] <nick_> Features within ~microcseconds
[10:00] <nick_> But features made up of, say, 20 ns pulses.
[10:01] <nick_> WEll, I guess a bit longer than that, 50 ns or so.
[10:01] <SpeedEvil> Can you detect the indicidual pulses with a comparator, or do you actually need an ADC?
[10:01] <nick_> We get a few samples from our 15.4 ns periodicity
[10:01] <SpeedEvil> comparator + FPGA might be quite cheap
[10:01] <edmoore> what gain are you applying roughly?
[10:02] <nick_> 1000?
[10:02] <nick_> SpeedEvil: no, we need the amplitude fairly precisely.
[10:02] <nick_> We need to know how many photons caused the pulse.
[10:02] <SpeedEvil> Ah - so it's not merely pulse density.
[10:02] <SpeedEvil> Right
[10:03] <nick_> The pulse density tells us if we saw a neutron or something else.
[10:03] <nick_> If it's something else then we care about the amplitude.
[10:04] <nick_> (although by now we have paid enough in development costs that we could have bought a fair few channels of digitisers from Caen)
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[10:05] <nick_> We also do some fairly stupid, but slightly necessary, things, like sending the signals a long distance before amplification.
[10:06] <SpeedEvil> It sounds like the 4370 if it could do it - locally per channel might be a reasonable solution
[10:06] <edmoore> the hard problem here isn't really digitisation
[10:06] <SpeedEvil> If it can handle extracting and triggering the data and sending only interesting subsets
[10:06] <SpeedEvil> indeed
[10:07] <edmoore> i'd love to have a go at this
[10:07] <edmoore> a few stages of CFA with a lot of careful layout
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[10:07] <edmoore> ferriting the bejesus out of all the biasing and other dc-supply stages
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[10:08] <edmoore> it'd probably need cooling too actually as those CFAs can get toastie
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[10:09] <nick_> SpeedEvil: that's my hope.
[10:10] <nick_> The one thing I can get a paper out of on my own,
[10:10] <SpeedEvil> It sounds like if it can't - it's not implausible that an external comparator might be able to trigger it at least enough so it can reduce the set the micro has to cope with to what it can manage
[10:11] <nick_> I use the comparators in the HSADC
[10:11] <SpeedEvil> Ah. I've not looked at the part in detail
[10:11] <SpeedEvil> that makes it easier
[10:12] <nick_> edmoore: I should be taking over this project.
[10:13] <nick_> Perhaps you could consult on a design review?
[10:13] <edmoore> nick_ have you read this article? http://e2e.ti.com/blogs_/b/analogwire/archive/2013/02/01/xavier-ramus
[10:13] <edmoore> it's quite interesting
[10:13] <edmoore> nick_ I'd love to, though I must stress I'm not a seasoned EE who would consult for such a thing normally. I just like electronics
[10:13] <edmoore> it would be A Project for me too rather than bread-and-butter work for a customer
[10:13] <edmoore> but it'd be fun ;)
[10:14] <edmoore> a lot of the rocket work doesn't need to be all that fast which i find dissapointing
[10:14] <nick_> I just mean being an outsider checking things when we review once or twice.
[10:14] <edmoore> oh sure
[10:14] <nick_> In exchange for SCR dinner
[10:14] <edmoore> works for me!
[10:15] <edmoore> i also now have a 1GHz b/w scope and i'm not afraid to use it
[10:17] <nick_> I want digital silicon photomultipliers already.
[10:17] <edmoore> mmm
[10:17] <SpeedEvil> nick_: they exist
[10:17] <SpeedEvil> emccds. (sort-of)
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[10:17] <SpeedEvil> err
[10:18] <SpeedEvil> ignre that - I missed the 'digital'
[10:18] Action: SpeedEvil needs more coffee. I wish they were cheap though
[10:18] <SpeedEvil> Under a photoelectron readout noise at 60hz = awesome. (but useless for timing)
[10:19] <nick_> SpeedEvil: yeah, I tried to get a dev kit for them, but I don't have £30k :(
[10:19] <SpeedEvil> I saw them pop up at TIs website several years ago, and have hoped they'd become a regular orderable - but nope
[10:20] <SpeedEvil> You need to wine and dine your rep.
[10:20] <SpeedEvil> With the good wine.
[10:20] <nick_> Siemens have actual digital silicon photomultipliers.
[10:21] <nick_> But I don't know that they are actually on the market yet.
[10:21] <edmoore> nick_ what's the latest with the space move? I sort of haven't come for a year+ because this new rocket engine took up morning-noon-and-night for 14months until march
[10:21] <edmoore> but i have evenings again now
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[10:22] <nick_> The move should happen soon, but lots has to happen behind the scenes.
[10:23] <edmoore> i can imagine
[10:23] <nick_> I'm not really in the moving loop though.
[10:24] <edmoore> i can imagine that being something of a releif
[10:24] <edmoore> those things are usually all pain
[10:24] <Herman_> !flights
[10:24] <SpacenearUS> 03Herman_: Current flights: 03SP9UOB - 144.250 MHz (434,500 where ham not allowed) 10(a1e1), 03June Sky Glider 1 10(acdb), 03PS-45 434.650 OLIVIA 8/250 Enable RSID 10(0f94)
[10:26] <nick_> Yeah, lots of work, not lots of progress.
[10:26] <nick_> My main hope is that we move before I move to another place.
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[10:28] <edmoore> are you thinking of moving to another place?
[10:29] <nick_> I have to in about a year.
[10:30] <edmoore> ah righty
[10:30] <edmoore> all the fun
[10:30] <edmoore> any idea where?
[10:31] <nick_> Top choices are Cambridge or Chicago
[10:31] <edmoore> i like both those places :)
[10:32] <edmoore> actually i think it was you who was signing the praises to me of Shedd?
[10:32] <nick_> yes
[10:34] <edmoore> i liked it
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[11:30] <infaddic_> morning all. building a filling tube similar to that on the wiki. i dont own a lathe so wondering how else to put a recess into the tube to accept a cable tie?
[11:30] <adamgreig> cable tie a cable tie onto the tube
[11:30] <adamgreig> ideally use a right-angle/shoulder tube
[11:31] <infaddic_> i was looking at this one: https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:fill_tube
[11:31] <infaddic_> it is not right angled tho
[11:32] <adamgreig> https://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/6874793964/in/album-72157629680728261/
[11:33] <Darkside> we just hold on tightly >_>
[11:33] <Darkside> and cable tie over the tube fairly tightly, but not tight enough to damage the rubber
[11:33] <Darkside> you can also duct tape the bottom of th eballoon neck to th etube if you're really worried
[11:33] <SpeedEvil> infaddic_: a few turns of tape with a gap in the middle, for example
[11:33] <SpeedEvil> and a cable tie over that
[11:34] <adamgreig> so yea we don't have a grove
[11:34] <adamgreig> balloon neck folded over tube, cable tie it tightly once or twice, bit of duct tape at the bottom of the balloon neck
[11:35] <adamgreig> then the cable tie around the elbow in the tube to attach scales for measuring
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[11:35] <SpeedEvil> and yes - use your common sense.
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> Nothing about this is magic
[11:35] <Darkside> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ayVgyIjh-8xve10gsdkLtuUhLVQ1u1OVtHoTwpjugac/edit?usp=sharing
[11:36] <Darkside> some documentation i wrote up a while back on filling
[11:36] <SpeedEvil> stuff on the wiki is far from the only way, often it's the first thing the person tried and happened to work
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[11:36] <Darkside> for a school launch
[11:36] <Darkside> page 5 is where the pics are
[11:36] <LazyLeopard> from
[11:37] <SpeedEvil> It's however very useful because at teh least it provides you with another look at a way to do things and may cover things you've forgotten
[11:37] <LazyLeopard> Meh. Wrong window...
[11:37] <LazyLeopard> ;)
[11:37] <infaddic_> yep thx guys, appreciate theres always more than one way to do stuff. just throwing ideas around (havent started building yet).
[11:38] <infaddic_> i like the idea of having the ability to hang weight for necklist onto the filling tube
[11:38] <infaddic_> *necklift
[11:39] <SpeedEvil> And there is the above comment I made 'there isn't any specific thing about HAB that is hard, but 23 not-very-hard things add up.'
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[11:42] <infaddic_> having never rented a helium cannister yet, im also not sure what type of connector/fitting it would come with. If I build my filling tube to convert down to hosepipe size, is that good enough?
[11:42] <Darkside> best to convert to something wider than that
[11:43] <Darkside> not too easy to wrap a ballon neck around a narrow diameter hose
[11:43] <Darkside> not impossible mind you, but not easy
[11:43] <infaddic_> sry i meant i would have a large pipe (e.g. 40mm) then convert down from that
[11:43] <Darkside> well take a look at the pics in the doc i linked
[11:43] <infaddic_> but to what, that is my question... so is converting down to hosepipe (to attach to helium) ok
[11:44] <Darkside> its mostly standard PVC fittings
[11:44] <Darkside> and some garden hose
[11:44] <infaddic_> yep i have plenty of all of those, so can build sommick to go from PVC 40mm ish, down to hosepipe
[11:44] <Darkside> sure
[11:44] <Darkside> i used standard gardena fittings as a quickrelease
[11:45] <infaddic_> i just wasnt sure if hosepipe would then fit onto my helium supply
[11:45] <Darkside> you would need a regulator with some kind of hose
[11:45] <Darkside> again, in the pictures i linked, you can see we adapt from some gas hose to regular garden hose
[11:46] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03TEST - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=TEST
[11:46] <Darkside> imaginative payload name
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[11:46] <infaddic_> ha
[11:47] <infaddic_> guess i need to pick a helium supplier and see if it comes with regulator or other balloon adapters already
[11:47] <infaddic_> as i dont own a regulator
[11:47] <Darkside> yeah its recommended you use one
[11:47] <Darkside> its possible to fill from the balloon neck, but its a bit hairy
[11:48] <infaddic_> that click system looks very flexible Darkside
[11:48] <adamgreig> yea the little click lock things are ace
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[11:48] <adamgreig> in https://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/6874793964/in/album-72157629680728261 you can see:
[11:48] <adamgreig> gas cylinder
[11:48] <adamgreig> 200bar to 4bar regulator
[11:48] <Darkside> means if we close the valve with the gas on, that connection will pop open
[11:48] <adamgreig> click adapter into another hose
[11:48] <Darkside> instead of hose blowing up
[11:48] <adamgreig> ignore the large scary gas flow controller
[11:49] <adamgreig> another click connector
[11:49] <adamgreig> totex-diameter filling pipe
[11:49] <adamgreig> with hyowee balloons it's a bit of a pain as you have to fold the balloon neck around the pipe a bit but it's ok
[11:50] <infaddic_> so adamgreig, are the connectors over the left wheel and lying on grass, click connectors?
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[11:52] <adamgreig> I don't know if they're the same ones Darkside is talking about
[11:52] <adamgreig> and I assume they have an actual name :p
[11:52] <infaddic_> sure, just wondering if they were click or screw type ones
[11:52] <adamgreig> click rather than screw
[11:53] <infaddic_> right. bit like "hoze-lock" which is a brand in the UK we have
[11:53] <Darkside> the ones we used are gardena fittings
[11:53] <adamgreig> not dissimilar
[11:53] <infaddic_> yep
[11:53] <adamgreig> i would avoid hozelock for gas tight fittings ;)
[11:53] <adamgreig> mine leak enough water as it is..
[11:53] <adamgreig> but yes a very similar construction
[11:53] <infaddic_> ok i dont know of any other garden ones other than hozelock
[11:53] <Darkside> http://www.hisltd.co.uk/images/GardenaTapConnectorStandardConnector-super.jpg
[11:54] <adamgreig> Darkside: you use water hose connectors for the gas connection?
[11:54] <Darkside> adamgreig: yeah, works fine with low pressure
[11:54] <Darkside> we havent noticed gas leaks
[11:54] <adamgreig> infaddic_: my local nice hardware store has a selection of the gas connectors, they're widely used on air hoses for air powered tools
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[11:54] <Darkside> the aim there is i want that connector to be the first thing that breaks
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[11:54] <Darkside> if there is too much pressure, that connector will pop open
[11:55] <Darkside> and so far, even a 3kg balloon filled up with about 7m^3 of gas doesn't open it
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[11:56] <adamgreig> I'd hope not - wouldn't expect that much back pressure on a huge balloon with a reasonable amount of gas?
[11:56] <infaddic_> ok guys i've mailed the helium company to get info on what connection/regulator they supply and will build something accordingly. thx for pics and advice!
[11:56] <Darkside> adamgreig: yeah sure
[11:56] <Darkside> adamgreig: its more for if you close the valve
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[11:57] <Darkside> infaddic_: i'd expect they will just supply a party balloon filler
[11:57] <Darkside> which are a bit painful to fill a large balloon with
[11:57] <infaddic_> yep so what is one of them? what size nozzle etc. can i put a garden hose onto it somehow?
[11:58] <Darkside> i'd have to dig one out
[11:58] <infaddic_> sry for silly q's but never filled party balloons before haha
[11:58] <Darkside> dont have one at hand right now
[11:58] <adamgreig> the ones I've used are like little rubber nozzles
[11:58] <infaddic_> i'll do a search np
[11:58] <adamgreig> really annoying to fit anything over
[11:58] <Darkside> iirc its a plastic nozzle thing about 15mm diameter
[11:58] <adamgreig> ideally you want an actual regulator
[11:58] <Darkside> which you have to bend to get gas out of
[11:58] <Darkside> sorry yes, rubber
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[12:12] <TT7> Hello everybody. I am using SDR Sharp and I have question. If I have a signal in the main window and it reaches to lets say -20dB, what is the reference for those decibels? is it dBm, or something else?
[12:13] <adamgreig> 'something else'
[12:13] <adamgreig> depends on your various gain settings and other things
[12:15] <Darkside> i guess technically it's dBFS
[12:15] <adamgreig> generally it's dB relative to full scale
[12:15] <adamgreig> right
[12:15] <TT7> lets say RF Gain is 0, the other tuners are turned off as well
[12:15] <adamgreig> still depends
[12:15] <adamgreig> you'd have to calibrate it to get a reading in dBm or anything else
[12:15] <Darkside> buw how to translate full scale to actual input power is the trick
[12:15] <Darkside> and its going to vary from device to device
[12:15] <adamgreig> if you have a good power meter you can read the power into the radio on a pure tone and see what it shows up as
[12:15] <adamgreig> but in general it's not something you do for actual radio usage
[12:16] <Darkside> in comms systems you generally care more about SNR
[12:16] <Darkside> not so much the actual power level, so long as you aren't near either the minimum detectable signal or overload point of your receiver
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[12:19] <prog> +1
[12:19] <prog> that's why there's no s-meter in sdr#
[12:19] <prog> and the reading is dBFS
[12:19] <TT7> I don't really have any other equipment, but the DVB-T dongle. I wanted to know whether that reading is useful for comparing two signal strengths. Like if I change an antenna on a transmitter, will I be able to compare them using just this
[12:20] <Darkside> with a fixed gain level, you can do relative measurements
[12:20] <adamgreig> yes, it's still useful for comparing thigns so long as the AGC is off and you keep the gains the same
[12:20] <SpeedEvil> The best is with an external reference.
[12:20] <Darkside> just be aware of the dynamic range of your receiver
[12:20] <prog> compare the SNR, dude.
[12:20] <SpeedEvil> For example, if you have a remote transmitter that is 'in view' in both cases, you can easily compare
[12:21] <TT7> ok, thx
[12:22] <prog> a simple and naive to measure the SNR is to measure the "height" of your signal over the noise floor
[12:23] <prog> of course, this is not accurate, but should be good within a couple of dB
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[12:24] <TT7> prog yea, I did that at first, just wanted to know whether I could get to some absolute value
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[12:24] <prog> you cannot.
[12:24] <prog> it depends on the entire gain chain
[12:24] <mfa298> I'd look at SNR as much as how much the signal strength has increased. If you improve the signal strength (the stuff you want) a bit but the noise floor (the bits you don't want) even more then you're potentially in a worse position than you started in (even though it's a stronger signal)
[12:24] <prog> move a slider, and you've lost the reading
[12:25] <TT7> ok
[12:25] <prog> also, the RTL dongle have a very narrow linear region
[12:26] <mfa298> this is why just blindly adding a pre-amp may not actually help as you also add noise as well as the signal (so the overall SNR may not be changed)
[12:26] <prog> or getting worse even
[12:27] <prog> the linear region in the RTL dongles is about 30dB
[12:27] <prog> this is related to the non linearities of the tuner and the RTL chip
[12:27] <prog> (read ENOBs)
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[12:33] Nick change: Upu_ -> Upu
[12:40] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03N8VRN - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N8VRN
[12:52] <Laurenceb_> edmoore: your ADC challenge
[12:52] <Laurenceb_> http://www.st.com/st-web-ui/static/active/en/resource/technical/document/datasheet/DM00092070.pdf
[12:52] <Laurenceb_> use an STM32F3 at 5.1Msps with filtering and a low noise front end
[12:52] <Laurenceb_> gives 21.3ENOB at 5.1sps
[12:55] <Laurenceb_> i think you could also use a hybrid SAR/Sigma-Delta design
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[12:57] <edmoore> did you know a solder/copper joint has a thermoelectric coefficient of 39uV/K ?
[12:58] <Laurenceb_> yup
[12:58] <edmoore> my challenge is to make the instrument
[12:58] <edmoore> i have no adc challenge
[12:58] <Laurenceb_> ah
[12:58] <Laurenceb_> I suspect its easier done with a hot wire sensor
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[12:59] <SpeedEvil> Now I wonder what those capacitive manometers in the radiosondes I have can do
[13:04] <fxmulder> are those units of manliness?
[13:05] <Laurenceb_> http://i.imgur.com/5ZNsdj9.jpg
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[13:29] <Laurenceb_> it takes ~20mW to heat that to 600C
[13:30] <Laurenceb_> i was using it to experiment with anemometry
[13:30] <Laurenceb_> unfortunately it wasnt practical
[13:30] <Laurenceb_> even at 400C it oxidises really quickly
[13:31] <Laurenceb_> needs taking to the next level : AVD platinum
[13:31] <Laurenceb_> or just platinum wire
[13:32] Nick change: berndj-blackout -> berndj
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[13:34] <Laurenceb_> holy shit
[13:34] <Laurenceb_> http://www.goodfellow.com/catalogue/GFCat4J.php?ewd_token=OOHnyDEeeyt5h9m0oUWtWUDRqdYs0a&n=LfMJsM1pJRMb3FLsbYHqrfXI57gLYK
[13:35] <Laurenceb_> oh you are paying for the crazy diameter
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[14:00] <Laurenceb_> ok, change of subject
[14:00] <Laurenceb_> I've got a laser doppler flowmeter, sometimes its falling off the pipe/ getting hit, whatever
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[14:02] <Laurenceb_> and the signal goes crazy with huge spikes
[14:05] <Laurenceb_> I'm trying to quantify the power spectral density of the "falling off" function
[14:09] <Laurenceb_> dunno how to describe this mathematically?
[14:10] <Laurenceb_> fft(abs(diff(signal))) is the best I can think of so far
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[15:01] <jarod> http://www.ustream.tv/channel/iss-hdev-payload
[15:04] <edmoore> i see dark
[15:04] <edmoore> i guess dawn is imminent
[15:07] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03E3SPCE - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=E3SPCE
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[15:16] <jarod> edmoore check again :)
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[15:37] <Herman_> !flights
[15:37] <SpacenearUS> 03Herman_: Current flights: 03SP9UOB - 144.250 MHz (434,500 where ham not allowed) 10(a1e1), 03June Sky Glider 1 10(acdb), 03PS-45 434.650 OLIVIA 8/250 Enable RSID 10(0f94)
[15:38] <Herman_> !dial E3SPCE
[15:38] <SpacenearUS> 03Herman_: Can't find a flight doc matching your query
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[16:33] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03JSKY1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=JSKY1
[16:35] <infaddict> can anybody share latest up to date NOTAM for please?
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[16:36] <infaddict> also, how far in advance do you file them? as weather prediction is 5-7 days in advance, if you file earlier are you just taking a punt?
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[16:39] <SpeedEvil> yes
[16:40] <SpeedEvil> you need almost always to file them well before you know the weather, for a range of days
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[16:41] <infaddict> ok thx SpeedEvil. i can only launch on weekends due to work, so that narrows it down right away. can i do a set of weekends on 1 NOTAM or file multiple covering say all weekends in a month?
[16:41] <SpeedEvil> I don't know the exact details - I'd imagine filing for all weekends in a month should be quite possible
[16:42] <infaddict> ok checking the CAA site for more details
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[16:43] <infaddict> Wondering if its this one: DAP1919: Captive Unmanned Gas Balloons - Application for Permission to Fly
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[16:46] <daveake> No
[16:46] <daveake> Assuming you want to actually let go of the balloon at some point
[16:46] <infaddict> ;-)
[16:47] <daveake> See the Permission section of http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=1732
[16:48] <daveake> The CAA don't like you to ask for (e.g.) "every weekend in June"
[16:49] <infaddict> I see they assume you have Word as well
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[16:49] <daveake> So instead, choose a weekend, apply for that, then confirm or postpone when you know if the predictions/weather are OK (3 days before launch usually)
[16:49] <daveake> OpenOffice
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[16:50] <infaddict> ok thx daveake. as they need 28 days notice, that suggests i should file separate NOTAMS for a series of weekends
[16:50] <daveake> No don't do that
[16:50] <infaddict> ok so am i limited to one weekend every 28 days then
[16:50] <daveake> no
[16:51] <daveake> As I said ... confirm or postpon
[16:51] <daveake> e
[16:51] <infaddict> ok so a postponement allows me to change the date without re-filng a new NOTAM?
[16:51] <infaddict> and therefore be exempt from 28 day rule
[16:51] <daveake> So choose a weekend, then 3-4 days prior, if you think you can't launch (not ready, crap predictions, etc) just email a postponement
[16:52] <daveake> there is no notam at this point
[16:52] <infaddict> sry maybe my terminology is bad. maybe i meant "application"
[16:52] <daveake> You apply for notam/permission. Eventually when you know you can launch, let them know the date(s) and they will send permission and issue a notam
[16:53] <daveake> yes application
[16:53] <infaddict> ok thx understand. so i can e-mail completed form to them rather than posting?
[16:53] <daveake> For the well-used sites, we don't even do applications now - just an email with dates/times
[16:53] <daveake> yes email
[16:54] <daveake> don't forget to attach the map
[16:54] <infaddict> seems they are mostly bothered about launch site. do they want to know path and predicted landing site?
[16:55] <infaddict> as im guessing its as much a danger on the way down as on the way up
[16:56] <infaddict> also is the "maximum dimension of ballon" at ground level or highest altitude? and does it include payload or just the balloon i wonder.
[16:57] <AdamDynamic> I've just wired up my HABAmp for the first time - in terms of the power I've attached two wires to a USB plug - sounds like a stupid question but can anyone confirm how to connect these to the actual PCB?
[16:57] <infaddict> solder
[16:57] <AdamDynamic> There are two pads labelled + and -
[16:57] <AdamDynamic> + for the 5v and - for ground?
[16:57] <infaddict> correct
[16:58] <infaddict> so find the equivalent + and - on your USB plug
[16:58] <infaddict> and solder
[16:58] <AdamDynamic> Yeah I've got the USB piece sorted (the outer two legs)
[16:58] <infaddict> i used a multimeter to ensure i got correct polarity as not clearly marked inside my USB dongle
[16:58] <AdamDynamic> Wanted to make sure I wasn't going to blow my pre-amp to pieces
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[16:59] <AdamDynamic> (That said, there are enough things I can do wrong that that may still happen...)
[16:59] <edmoore> or your usb
[16:59] <infaddict> you can also solder header pins onto the HABAmp first
[16:59] <edmoore> hopefully the pre-amp has polarity protection
[16:59] <edmoore> but the usb controller might not be mega happy
[16:59] <AdamDynamic> I thought it might, didn't want to assume though
[17:00] <AdamDynamic> It's a dead dongle that I was using for my SDR
[17:00] <AdamDynamic> I kept getting error messages when I tried to use it so I ordered a NooElec one from the states
[17:00] <AdamDynamic> Used the old one as a donor power supply
[17:00] <infaddict> i just tinned my wires and soldered to the HABAmp and worked fine
[17:01] <AdamDynamic> And the 'IN' side connects to the antenna, the 'OUT' to the SDR dongle?
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[17:02] <Upu> yes AdamDynamic
[17:02] <Upu> and yes it does edmoore
[17:02] <infaddict> yep the arrow shows the flow on my version
[17:03] <Upu> afk cooking but wil answer any more q's later
[17:03] <edmoore> flow of what though?
[17:04] <infaddict> signal i guess
[17:06] <AdamDynamic> Final question: when it says "5v on header", does the 'header' refer to the +/- pads on the PCB?
[17:07] <infaddict> yes
[17:07] <infaddict> versus bias via the coax
[17:07] <infaddict> so switch needs to be on header
[17:15] <infaddict> daveake: any idea if the "maximum dimension of ballon" is at ground level or highest altitude? and does it include payload or just the balloon i wonder.
[17:17] <AdamDynamic> (I've got the pre-amp working, thanks all! :)
[17:17] <infaddict> great well done AdamDynamic
[17:21] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KD4BFP-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD4BFP-11
[17:21] <fsphil> jsky1 launching?
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[17:30] <daveake> infaddict I put down "1.5m diameter at launch"
[17:30] <infaddict> ok cool thx for confirming, just filling in what I know in the doc now
[17:30] <infaddict> think i'm gonna launch from Oxfordshire as have relies and friends there. Much better weather predictions and wider expanse of country that up North.
[17:31] <infaddict> just scouting out some launch sites
[17:31] <edmoore> where in Oxfordshire infaddict?
[17:33] <infaddict> edmoore: somewhere near Stonesfield / Woodstock / Charlbury type area
[17:34] <infaddict> so NW of Oxford
[17:34] <edmoore> oh well give me a shout if you want a hand
[17:34] <edmoore> i live in west oxford
[17:35] <infaddict> aha cool thx edmoore
[17:35] <infaddict> know any good launch sites ;-)
[17:35] <edmoore> none established
[17:35] <edmoore> you'll have to just take a punt with the notam application i think
[17:35] <edmoore> brize norton is the obvious thing to avoid
[17:36] <infaddict> yep and a few local aerodromes too
[17:36] <infaddict> my local man on the ground has found a few nice areas of common ground. one is a 500m from a road tho so bit of a trek.
[17:36] <edmoore> kindlington airstrip
[17:36] <edmoore> sorry, London Oxford Airport
[17:37] <edmoore> yeah you don't want that
[17:37] <edmoore> you want to take a car directly to the site
[17:37] <daveake> +1000
[17:37] <edmoore> helium tanks become unfun to drag across fields
[17:37] <infaddict> how much clear space do you need i wonder? i.e. proximity to buidings, trees. if windy, probably a lot!
[17:37] <edmoore> any old field should do it
[17:38] <infaddict> yep i'd be happy parking up in the usual "corner of field" you see with a gate and laying down my stuff. ideally need landover permission tho.
[17:38] <edmoore> yes
[17:38] <edmoore> that's the thing to go for
[17:38] <edmoore> of a friendly school playing field
[17:38] <edmoore> or*
[17:39] <edmoore> a village hall + attached cricket pitch
[17:39] <daveake> :)
[17:39] <infaddict> yer playing field good idea. i've found a village green but might not be big enough.
[17:39] <daveake> probably will be, unless it's windy and a floater (bad combination)
[17:39] <edmoore> gmaps link?
[17:40] <infaddict> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/51%C2%B050'05.6%22N+1%C2%B032'35.5%22W/@51.8348759,-1.5431929,104m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x487132acd1dc0645:0x5dd2f95fc8f77843
[17:40] <infaddict> likely too near houses and other stuff
[17:40] <infaddict> just looking around tho
[17:40] <edmoore> should be alright if it's not too windy
[17:41] <edmoore> 10mph winds = roughly 45 degree ascent
[17:41] <edmoore> which actually means it's quite high by the time it's made it across 50m of green
[17:41] <infaddict> yep i'd hate to let it go only to watch it smack into a building or tree
[17:42] <infaddict> yep if 5m/s ascent it doesnt take much to get above a house i guess
[17:42] <edmoore> my first ever one we severely underfilled
[17:42] <edmoore> it did about a 1:20 ascent
[17:42] <infaddict> oops
[17:42] <edmoore> only just cleared a building that was two rugby fields and a hockey pitch away
[17:43] <edmoore> that was the one where we bought 6 expensive cameras from jessops and put them on the payload with the intention of unmodifying them (mosfet over shutter switch) and returning them back to jessops within 14 days
[17:43] <edmoore> we gave up and went to the pub when it was about 300km into the north sea
[17:43] <infaddict> ha! did it work?! ive asked my friend about local playing fields/school fields.
[17:43] <edmoore> one of the first flights with rtty though
[17:43] <edmoore> so we were pleased enough with that
[17:44] <edmoore> it seems fairly simple and robust
[17:44] <edmoore> seemed*
[17:44] <edmoore> but yeah it was bad an expensive that day
[17:44] <daveake> I nearly smacked a payload into a water tower on my second launch.
[17:45] <daveake> Got caught out by the wind affecting the neck lift measurement
[17:45] <edmoore> yeah it does that
[17:45] <edmoore> :(
[17:45] <infaddict> ok you guys have me thinking I need a national park with 5 mile square for my first launch haha
[17:45] <edmoore> lol
[17:45] <edmoore> in our case i think we had a leak from the balloon
[17:45] <daveake> If there's one thing you need for your first launch it's a lack of wind
[17:45] <edmoore> we had to hold it inflated for about 1.5hrs on the ground because a gps antenna failed
[17:46] <edmoore> so had to replace
[17:46] <infaddict> yep i am praying for no wind
[17:46] <daveake> makes life much more pleasant
[17:46] <daveake> I;m happy to come over and help/watch/laugh if I'm about
[17:46] <infaddict> i was going to ask about that edmoore. is it best to start up tracker and let it lock on and then fill balloon or other way around?
[17:46] <infaddict> sure daveake i will let you know the dates
[17:46] <daveake> tracker first
[17:46] <infaddict> cool, out of interest how long to normally fill a 1600g
[17:47] <edmoore> 4-5mins?
[17:47] <daveake> you don't want to be holding a balloon for ages while someone sorts out an errant tracker
[17:47] <edmoore> and yes always get a go-flight tracker first
[17:47] <edmoore> because once the balloon is inflated you don't want to hang around
[17:47] <edmoore> it wants to go
[17:47] <infaddict> mmm
[17:47] <daveake> let it go
[17:48] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[17:48] <infaddict> i know the golden rules is never let your first launch be the first balloon you've tracked. but sadly i think it will be true for me.
[17:48] <infaddict> but i have tracked my own payload from a few miles away
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[17:48] <infaddict> and practised magmount on car vs yagi in hand
[17:49] <edmoore> my first was the first i tracked :)
[17:49] <infaddict> gotta have some excitement huh!
[17:49] <edmoore> times were different then [spits tobacco into bucket]
[17:50] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03kd4bfp-car - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=kd4bfp-car
[17:52] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03kj4cqq_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=kj4cqq_chase
[17:52] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03kj4cqq-car - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=kj4cqq-car
[17:55] <daveake> <infaddict> seems they are mostly bothered about launch site. do they want to know path and predicted landing site?
[17:55] <daveake> No
[17:55] <daveake> Unless you want to launch near an airport
[17:55] <infaddict> ok cheers
[17:56] <daveake> Well, not so much as they want to know, but the permission will say "balloon MUST drift in a southerly direction" e.g.
[17:56] <infaddict> ordered an car inverter today for laptop power on the move. shouldnt need it but you never know, could be a long day lol.
[17:56] <daveake> I have sent in predictions when it's been like that, but they're not needed
[17:57] <infaddict> interesting daveake, so permission caveats like that could scupper you if you get good wind, just in wrong direction
[17:57] <edmoore> i am so annoyed
[17:57] <daveake> assume everything will fail. e.g. laptop will fail. Spare laptop will run out of battery power.
[17:57] <edmoore> my test gear man had a nice 600W pure-sine inverter
[17:57] <edmoore> broken and wanted £25 for it
[17:57] <edmoore> missed it by 10 mins
[17:57] <daveake> damn
[17:57] <daveake> that's a good price and I bet it'd be easy to fix
[17:57] <daveake> Or were you hoping for difficult to fix? :)
[17:58] <daveake> infaddict best to launch away from airports
[17:58] <infaddict> yep worried about Oxford and Brize Norton now
[17:58] <Upu> when are you thinking of launching ?
[17:58] <infaddict> depends how busy they are. i thought Cambridge had a small airport and they launch there a lot?
[17:59] <infaddict> probably 6 weeks away or so Upu
[17:59] <infaddict> just want to name a date otherwise will faff on forever
[17:59] <daveake> I don't think there's a direction restriction for either Cambs site
[17:59] <edmoore> nope
[18:00] <Upu> all the notams I've had for up north (and I've never actually launched) have had "must go north"
[18:00] <edmoore> cambridge is free of any restriction
[18:00] <infaddict> mmm which is tricky when prevailing winds are W to E
[18:00] <edmoore> wouldn't have settled for less!
[18:00] <daveake> I had one oop-north customer who insisted on launching oop north
[18:01] <daveake> 1 year later gave up waiting for a good prediction
[18:01] <infaddict> i dont have to launch in Oxford, just got friends/family and 1 of them remotely showed an interest haha ;-)
[18:01] <edmoore> and you've got me
[18:01] <daveake> where are you then?
[18:01] <infaddict> lol daveake in my 4 months of predicting i've yet to find one either
[18:01] <infaddict> I'm up near Newcastle daveake, a coastal town called South Shields
[18:02] <daveake> hmm not ideal
[18:02] <infaddict> exactly, on the coast and mostly offshore winds
[18:02] <infaddict> i wondered about Northumberland
[18:02] <daveake> happy to offer my site but it'll be a long drive
[18:02] <infaddict> mmm thanks
[18:03] <infaddict> when i move to Bournemouth later this year I will be closer to the action!
[18:03] <daveake> and a different sea
[18:04] <infaddict> true! i want southerly winds then
[18:04] <infaddict> but not far to drive northwards to some nice open ground
[18:06] <daveake> I need to add "Buying a house with an attached launch site" to https://groups.google.com/d/msg/ukhas/LkteE6wS5L8/VuPKEfjQ41sJ
[18:06] <daveake> esp as I obv couldn't count up to 6
[18:07] <infaddict> haha I am point 4
[18:07] <infaddict> at point 4
[18:08] <daveake> ditto when I wrote that
[18:08] <edmoore> i will buy a defender at some point
[18:08] <edmoore> and i suspect that will get a lot more balloon and rocket use
[18:08] <edmoore> right gtg
[18:08] <edmoore> bbl
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[18:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03XE1G_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=XE1G_chase
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[18:17] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SCHEM - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SCHEM
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[18:19] <infaddict> think i mightve secured a huge school field to launch from. friendly with the headmaster so asking him for permission on monday.
[18:19] <Upu> local to you ?
[18:19] <infaddict> with the vague offer of science info/pics of near space as bribery ;-)
[18:19] <infaddict> nah down near my oxford relies
[18:19] <Upu> ah ok
[18:20] <infaddict> i'd love to launch up here but i'm under flight path of Newcastle airport and country only 80 mile across ;-(
[18:20] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Kuldar_STRATOS_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Kuldar_STRATOS_chase
[18:21] <infaddict> although i do own a boat so could just launch and let it land in the sea haha
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[18:56] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DC2EH-9 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DC2EH-9
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[19:51] <mclane_> after a long struggle with the registers of the rfm 98 finally I succeeded to have LoRa running ;-))
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[19:57] <pd3t> Maxell: online?
[19:57] <pd3t> gezwellig... ;)
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[20:00] <pd3t> Maxell:
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[20:14] <pd3t> bertrik_: jij online?
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[20:23] <bertrik_> pd3t: ja
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[20:37] <mattbrejza> !flights
[20:37] <SpacenearUS> 03mattbrejza: Current flights: 03SP9UOB - 144.250 MHz (434,500 where ham not allowed) 10(a1e1), 03June Sky Glider 1 10(acdb), 03PS-45 434.650 OLIVIA 8/250 Enable RSID 10(0f94)
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[22:43] <tweetBot> @AmsatUK: X-Wing 434 MHz Balloon on BBC Click TV show http://t.co/0omZ1Xdw3B #amsat #hamradio #hamr #ukhas @ProjectHeT
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[23:42] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Chevy_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Chevy_chase
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[00:00] --- Mon May 18 2015