highaltitude.log.20150514

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[05:52] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03JACKAL3P after 0311 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=JACKAL3P
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[08:30] Action: SpacenearUS is back!
[08:35] <amell> Hallejuah!
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[08:47] <Reb-SM3ULC> morrn
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[08:55] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[09:24] <edmoore> nick_, a) hello, b) I probably mentioned this before but i wonder if you know of any places around your depts where one might be able to raid 'broken' electronics test equipment?
[09:24] <edmoore> i'm trying to put together a home lab and am trying to do fixie-uppie to keep the costs down and to learn some stuff
[09:33] <Laurenceb__> http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cc1310.pdf
[09:34] <edmoore> whatcha thinkin?
[09:35] <Laurenceb__> they finally have a "wireless mcu" with arm built in
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[09:35] <edmoore> for added piconess?
[09:35] <Laurenceb__> yup
[09:36] <edmoore> can their PLLs be absued enough for MFSK tone spacing?
[09:36] <Laurenceb__> or not if you consider code size :D
[09:36] <Laurenceb__> dunno, havent read full datasheet
[09:36] <mattbrejza> what was wrong with the cc430? :P
[09:36] <mattbrejza> this one has a smaller footprint though
[09:38] <Laurenceb__> their documentation seems even more confused than silabs :-/
[09:39] <SpeedEvil> TI can be silly.
[09:39] <SpeedEvil> I found a USB power supply chip which has export control on the documents
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[09:54] <nick_> edmoore: I can ask someone.
[09:54] <nick_> I get the impression that we have condemned some equipment since it isn't "safe" that should be workable.
[09:54] <edmoore> ok
[09:55] <edmoore> thanks
[09:55] <edmoore> i can happily pop down and look if there's just a pile of stuff that's going to get chucked anyway
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[10:03] <craag> Morning KM4FSW
[10:03] <craag> Did you see that lz1de_v tracked down the issue with JB-1?
[10:04] <Lunar_Lander> morning
[10:04] <craag> morning Lunar_Lander
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[11:27] Nick change: IanTL -> Ian_
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[12:17] <Charlie_> hi
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[12:19] <Charlie_> I think I have found a super pressure balloon supplier in Japan.
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[12:27] <SpeedEvil> Super.
[12:28] <Charlie_> hopefully :|
[12:28] <Charlie_> My Japanese is terrible :P
[12:29] <fsphil> who knows what you've ordered :)
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[12:31] <Vaizki> Superpressure girlfriend incoming...
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[12:34] <SpeedEvil> 'yes, it is under 2m at all stages of flight and has realistic orifices.
[12:34] <Charlie_> LOL
[12:39] <gonzo_> leo will probably have tried flying one
[12:40] <gonzo_> when I commented about my wows testing the free lift of helium condoms, he was the only one who admitted trying the same
[12:40] <Charlie_> I will ask if they have shipped any to the UK...
[12:40] <Charlie_> lol nice
[12:40] <Charlie_> I made a set of bagpipes from an condom
[12:40] <gonzo_> (with others in his office finding condom shreads around their desks for days)
[12:41] <Charlie_> XD
[12:41] <Lunar_Lander> loool
[12:41] <gonzo_> if they don't burst, they are so slippy that you lose them whilst trying to fill
[12:43] <gonzo_> and they are bloody expensive these days. Buying some 100g from steve would be cheaper. (Though walking into the bedroom, wearing one coudl be takes as a hopeless case of optimism!)
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[12:43] <Lunar_Lander> :D
[12:44] <Charlie_> XD
[12:49] <Charlie_> meh the balloon manufacturers i emailed yesterday say they cant make a balloon
[12:49] <fsphil> lol
[12:49] <Charlie_> Also said that balloons cant fly for more than two or three weeks - should I link them to Leo's website? ;)
[12:50] <fsphil> maybe theres can't
[12:50] <fsphil> theirs? grammer fail
[12:51] <Charlie_> idk, i what have thought that one balloon mylar would be pretty similar to anothers? But I'm not a mech eng, or chem eng so I would have no clue. :P
[12:51] <edmoore> no you're wrong
[12:51] <edmoore> we talked about this several times yesterday
[12:52] <Charlie_> So mylar isnt one specific mixture?
[12:52] <Charlie_> Apologies.
[12:52] <edmoore> it's not always mylar
[12:53] <Charlie_> ok
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[12:55] <edmoore> sorry i'm half writing a boring email and half taking out the boredom on you
[12:55] <edmoore> but basically please, every time someone says that custom super pressure balloons are a much harder problem then you seem to think they are, please listen to them
[12:55] <infaddict> Dear Santa... http://www.wired.com/2015/05/lily-robotics-drone/
[12:55] <edmoore> they're right
[12:55] <edmoore> don't assume it's simple
[12:56] <Charlie_> edmoore, I 100% understand
[12:56] <Charlie_> No problem at all.
[12:56] <edmoore> start flying qualtex balloons and pico trackers now and use them to test your inflation model
[12:56] <edmoore> it's a very iterative thing
[12:57] <Charlie_> okay that sounds like a good plan
[12:57] <edmoore> unless you have the money and experience to model ir properly from the get-go and have it work in the week you allot to testing at the end of the matsers
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[12:57] Nick change: Hix2 -> Hix
[12:58] <edmoore> but it never seems to work out that way, even in Real World Engineering (research anyway) and you still wish you just built something to iterate with earlier
[12:58] <edmoore> on which point, welcome to my life
[12:58] <Charlie_> I suppose that would actually be better, as it shows real progression and development
[12:58] <Charlie_> lol
[12:58] <edmoore> yes
[12:58] <edmoore> certainly
[12:58] <edmoore> and you'll have *something* to talk about regardless
[12:58] <edmoore> have a stab at a 1.8V, 10g basic flight tracker now
[12:59] <russss> this has been your bitter rocket scientist rant for the day
[12:59] <edmoore> make 5, lob them up on qualtexes, log the free lift very carefully
[12:59] <edmoore> if i was into twitter that could be my twitter name
[12:59] <edmoore> bitter rocket scientist
[12:59] <adamgreig> bitter or grumpy?
[12:59] <edmoore> maybe one of those tumblr's full of animated gifs
[12:59] <edmoore> grumpy i guess
[12:59] <edmoore> i still enjoy it
[13:00] <edmoore> i'm just not good with iother people
[13:00] <edmoore> adamgreig, check out my new pencil case https://www.dropbox.com/sc/et0wlqzrxw405qj/AABGycsA17mwInm4G26nyNEHa
[13:00] <edmoore> it's made me less grumpy
[13:01] <gangadhargs> Hey guys - I am based out of France and want to attempt my first HAB launch sometime in July.
[13:02] <adamgreig> very nice
[13:02] <gangadhargs> been working on setting up my Raspi to document the stats and pictures for the launch
[13:02] <gangadhargs> thanks for the awesome documentation on the wiki
[13:02] <Charlie_> hehe sounds like a good summer project
[13:02] <gangadhargs> consult it almost everyday
[13:02] <gangadhargs> well actually it is a good winter project to work on when weather is not so nice
[13:02] <edmoore> the wiki has loads of good stuff if you can find it
[13:02] <gangadhargs> so I have a question
[13:03] <gangadhargs> I see the documentation for how to build the antenna
[13:03] <gangadhargs> and I see how to make the NTX2 circuit
[13:03] <adamgreig> i found your old pencil case with the spiders in the lab i think edmoore
[13:03] <gangadhargs> how to connect the antenna to the NTX2?
[13:03] <edmoore> Charlie_, but for reals, I'd have a stab at a really simple flight computer - gps, micro, radio - but in a very small form factory. just go have something to mess with
[13:03] <gangadhargs> which pin to where on the antenna terminal?
[13:04] <edmoore> adamgreig, spiders?
[13:04] <edmoore> i don't remember it
[13:04] <edmoore> gangadhargs, you could solder an SMA connector to each end
[13:04] <edmoore> and attach with an SMA cable
[13:05] <craag> gangadhargs: The center element (radiating element) goes to RF OUT
[13:05] <RealBorg> gangadhargs, what antenna are you going to use?
[13:05] <craag> The four elements that make up the groundplane, connect to GND.
[13:05] <craag> Ideally with coax and connectors as edmoore says
[13:05] <gangadhargs> there are two GNDs on the NTX2?
[13:06] <craag> They're internally connected
[13:06] <craag> So you can use either one, or both.
[13:06] <edmoore> https://agg.io/u/ntx2.jpg
[13:06] <gangadhargs> RealBorg - I am planning to create the antenna exactly as shown in https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:payload_antenna
[13:06] <gangadhargs> craag - interesting
[13:06] <gangadhargs> good to know
[13:06] <craag> gangadhargs: See edmoore's link
[13:07] <edmoore> gangadhargs, so the coaxial wire you use to make the antenna can have an SMA connector fitted to the other end
[13:07] <RealBorg> gangadhargs, it's a pretty simple design
[13:07] <gangadhargs> so basically the antenna's groundplane goes to GND and the radiating element to RF out
[13:07] <edmoore> yes
[13:08] <edmoore> exactly so
[13:08] <gangadhargs> perfect.
[13:08] <RealBorg> the 4 rods are the ground plane and the rod in the center via the center connector of the coax to rf out
[13:08] <gangadhargs> what kids of tests do you do to ensure that the payload will survive the journey?
[13:09] <gangadhargs> how to test in extreme cold?
[13:09] <RealBorg> freeze / vacuum would be basic tests
[13:10] <gangadhargs> how do you create that vacuum?
[13:10] <RealBorg> mechanical pump
[13:10] <edmoore> most people don't actually ground-test in a vacuum
[13:10] <RealBorg> gangadhargs, I am in europe as well austria actually
[13:10] <edmoore> most electronics is basically happy in that thermal/pressure environment, so long as the package isn't dissipating too much heat
[13:11] <edmoore> most here are in europe
[13:11] <RealBorg> have you checked legislation in france regarding hab flights?
[13:11] <gangadhargs> working on that in parallel
[13:11] <gangadhargs> legislation is the least interesting of the things to do
[13:12] <RealBorg> least interesting but quite important
[13:12] <RealBorg> I almost ruled out a launch in austria for legislation issues
[13:13] <gangadhargs> what happened?
[13:14] <RealBorg> one guy it would cost hundreds of euros to get a permission
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[13:15] <RealBorg> probably even requiring certification of the balloon
[13:15] <Lunar_Lander> for a weather balloon?
[13:16] <RealBorg> maybe university / weather institute has some excempt
[13:16] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[13:16] <edmoore> i don't know what the law is in france
[13:16] <edmoore> i feel like it's been discussed here though a few times
[13:17] <gangadhargs> I know one person launched last year....
[13:17] <gangadhargs> I am in touch with him.
[13:17] <gangadhargs> but the legal permission seemed a bit shaky and so we are researching a better contact the legal folks
[13:18] <fsphil> it's not allowed in Ireland at all, but a team down there found a workaround by launching from a met office site
[13:18] <fsphil> maybe you can do something similar
[13:21] <Charlie_> Amazing how something as standardised throughout the world (civilian air transport) is controlled by such a mismash of regulation.
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[13:24] <gangadhargs> that is an interesting workaround
[13:24] <gangadhargs> will keep in mind
[13:25] <RealBorg> I am open to travel
[13:25] <RealBorg> is there going to be a great balloon launch this year?
[13:26] <nick_> Hi guys, Science Oxford just advertised a job as technician for the Oxford Hackspace which is moving into their basement soon, in case anyone local is interested. See http://scienceoxford.com/jobs
[13:27] <Laurenceb__> attn edmoore
[13:27] <RealBorg> air worthiness certification for a balloon costs 219€ in .at
[13:27] <edmoore> Laurenceb__, what?
[13:27] <Laurenceb__> job for you ^
[13:27] <edmoore> as good a SoH as ever
[13:28] <Laurenceb__> teehee
[13:28] <RealBorg> permission to launch a weather balloon: 131 single / 362 multiple
[13:29] <gangadhargs> what is a great balloon launch?
[13:29] <edmoore> exciting though that the hackspace can get a fulltime technician
[13:29] <edmoore> to look after tools
[13:30] <gangadhargs> BTW - has anyone tried downloading live images?
[13:30] <nick_> They're also considering a 50/50 job share, so you could work half a day running a prototyping shop, and one day making rockets. You don't need to sleep, right?
[13:30] <gangadhargs> I am wondering how people have done it
[13:30] <SpeedEvil> gangadhargs: it's generally not possible at range due to radio power limits.
[13:30] <edmoore> gangadhargs, https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ssdv
[13:30] <edmoore> yes
[13:30] <edmoore> or 'live' for some value of live
[13:30] <edmoore> not live video
[13:30] <SpeedEvil> gangadhargs: postage-stamp pics are different, and you may live in a different regulatory environment where you can use kilowatts
[13:31] <SpeedEvil> A 2.4m dish of course would help lots
[13:31] <edmoore> nick_, the problem is that i get upset with people not using tools properly
[13:31] <SpeedEvil> Especially if it's on both ends.
[13:31] <edmoore> i'm not a good person for that kind of thing
[13:31] <nick_> I think that's basically the job.
[13:31] <edmoore> i wouldn't do the compliment sandwhich
[13:31] <edmoore> i'd just shout
[13:31] <SpeedEvil> 'no, that's not a miniature c-clamp'
[13:32] <edmoore> 'you have nice shoes, what the fuck are you doing to that poor end mill, i like that you're using aluminium, that's my favourite transition metal too'
[13:32] <gangadhargs> Thanks SpeedEvil and edmoore
[13:32] <edmoore> i couldn't do that ^
[13:32] <gangadhargs> that is a good link
[13:32] <nick_> (really the cool part is that it should also involve making weird things for people as a service)
[13:32] <gangadhargs> postage stamp images are fine for now
[13:32] <infaddict> gangadhargs: my advice as a new guy is to spend hours/days on the wiki
[13:32] <infaddict> most if not all is already there
[13:33] <craag> Just don't get lost in there, some people we pointed that way... and never heard from again...
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[13:33] <edmoore> nick_ that does sound kind of fun, but if anything i spend too much time working on other people's ideas atm. i'd like to do 50/50 work and my own stuff
[13:33] <edmoore> tough to get a salary for the latter
[13:33] <infaddict> of course the guys here are uber helpful (usually haha!) but the wiki is always my first port of call
[13:33] <gangadhargs> thanks guys
[13:33] <gangadhargs> I will logoff now
[13:34] <infaddict> dont let me scare you off, not my intention at all ;-)
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[13:34] <edmoore> yes no need to log off
[13:34] <nick_> Yeah, the job doesn't really pay enough to comfortably spend 50% of your time with no income living in Oxford.
[13:35] <edmoore> no
[13:35] <edmoore> i'd keep the rocket job, i eant...
[13:35] <edmoore> meant*
[13:35] <SpeedEvil> Simply excavate a sub-basement in the space.
[13:36] <SpeedEvil> First project - a TBM
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[13:43] <Laurenceb__> http://unenthusiasticcritic.com/2011/08/31/the-sound-of-music-1965/
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[13:49] <Ian_> [13:41] <gonzo_> if they don't burst, they are so slippy that you lose them whilst trying to fill . . . Jumbo unlubricated is the way to go http://www.gocondom.com/uk/Non-lubricated-condoms/
[13:51] <Ian_> You don't have to go to Boots the chemist for your test-pico flight envelopes and condoms normally burst with a volume of between 25 and 40 litres. My, that's some todger!
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[14:06] <Charlie_> Should be a good antenna http://www.simplesolutions-uk.com/sites/default/files/GPS1003_datasheet.pdf
[14:07] <craag> Charlie_: Have you seen the ones that Anthony sells at HAB Supplies?
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[14:07] <Charlie_> craag: nope, will check now
[14:07] <craag> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=59_65
[14:08] <tridor> Hello, Looking to purchase a balloon for our HAB project
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[14:09] <craag> Hi tridor, what country are you in?
[14:09] <tridor> sending up a pi with camera, gpd phone
[14:09] <tridor> any recommendations on balloon weight for beigginers?
[14:09] <craag> Ah you want http://habhub.org/calc/
[14:10] <edmoore> aim for an ascent rate of about 5m/s
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[14:10] <edmoore> put your payload mass in
[14:10] <Charlie_> Which country are you from tridor?
[14:10] <edmoore> (500g is a good number if you've no idea)
[14:10] <edmoore> try different balloons until you get a burst alt you like
[14:10] <tridor> uk
[14:11] <craag> Here's a good place to get them from if you haven't seen it already: http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html
[14:11] <craag> But sort out what you need first.
[14:12] <Charlie_> I highly recommend the link craag gave you.
[14:13] <tridor> any particular balloon brand to recommend or stay away from?
[14:14] <craag> Hwoyee tends to have a larger burst diameter for a given weight
[14:14] <craag> (than pawan at least)
[14:14] <edmoore> get hwoyee
[14:15] <Charlie_> I third hwoyee
[14:16] <edmoore> they're by far the most flown (round these parts) nowadays
[14:18] <tridor> That's great information, thanks
[14:22] <Charlie_> When are you planning to fly?
[14:25] <tridor> still early in our project but hopefully in a couple of months. I'll no doubt have some more questions.........
[14:25] <tridor> and will post the launch
[14:25] <Charlie_> excellent! best of luck :)
[14:26] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> If you want to track on the map then you will also need to put in payload and flight docs
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[14:32] <Charlie_> How woudl one seal a qualatex balloon. Or are people really brave enough to heat something up thats filled with hydrogen?
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[14:35] <craag> Charlie_: They have a valve in the neck, see: https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:filling_foil_balloons
[14:35] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> They have an iternal seal valve
[14:35] <Charlie_> They dont leak too much then?
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[14:35] <craag> I think Leo did glue his up or something
[14:36] <Charlie_> ah okay
[14:36] <craag> But also use of hydrogen with those can be a bit risky, fore example if the balloon has a microleak, and comes down partially inflated... you have a flammable gas balloon bouncing across city/countryside.
[14:37] <Charlie_> yeah
[14:37] <craag> Your choice of course, but this has caused most people to use helium for these flights.
[14:37] <Charlie_> ah that makes sense, I do have a cylinder of helium that I could use some from
[14:37] <SpeedEvil> It's safest to add a little chlorine, and launch at night so it's guaranteed to explode in sunlight.
[14:38] <Charlie_> Infact, thats why it was confiscated by halls when it was delivered - they thought I was going to prank them by filling a couple hundred balloons XD
[14:39] <Charlie_> Night time launches hmmm. Doesnt the CAA say that balloons must have a red beacon
[14:39] <RealBorg> red would be an extremely poor choice
[14:40] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Not sure that it says that anywhere ? Where did you see it ?
[14:40] <craag> Charlie_: Nope. I've applied for night-time launch, nothing like that.
[14:42] <Charlie_> Rules of the Air Regs 2007 Rule 51
[14:42] <Charlie_> http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/734/pdfs/uksi_20070734_en.pdf
[14:43] <Charlie_> Unless the whole <2m whole doesnt apply idk
[14:44] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Thats for aircraft not balloons surely ?
[14:44] <craag> I think that's for hot-air balloons - not MET balloons
[14:44] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Oh found it
[14:44] <SpeedEvil> Charlie_: search on 'small balloon'
[14:44] <SpeedEvil> Charlie_: I think the lighting provisions are for >2m tethered balloons
[14:44] <SpeedEvil> From memory
[14:44] <craag> SpeedEvil: Try reading the doc ;)
[14:45] <SpeedEvil> I have, it was a while back.
[14:45] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> page 20 section 51
[14:45] <Charlie_> SpeedEvil: word small doesnt appear at all :P
[14:46] <craag> Charlie_: Good find - there may be something in the weather balloon legislation exempting them from this.
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[14:46] <Charlie_> yeah, I did send an email to them asking for clarification (no glossary of terms), but not heard anything.
[14:47] <Charlie_> Once exams are over I'll see about phoning them.
[14:47] <SpeedEvil> ^those are quite out of date
[14:47] <Charlie_> I won't drop you guys in it if they say 'no beacon = illegal' XD
[14:48] <SpeedEvil> https://www.caa.co.uk/cap393
[14:49] <SpeedEvil> ^in short - small balloons are defined as not aircraft
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[14:51] <Charlie_> ok
[14:52] <SpeedEvil> And for large ones - getting approval is the gatekeeper
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[14:53] <SpeedEvil> (again, from memory, please actually read it in detail, or better get a lawyer)
[14:56] <Charlie_> yeah, thats why I contacted the CAA
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[15:00] <SpeedEvil> This was light reading - I've been concentrating on much more taxing disability legislation.
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[15:41] <Charlie_> On a picoballoon, what Tx is used? Same old RadioMetrix?
[15:41] <edmoore> no
[15:42] <edmoore> have a look at the SI446x range of chips
[15:42] <edmoore> where x is also a number
[15:42] <craag> si406x are the transmit-only versions.
[15:43] <Laurenceb__> https://ukamsat.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/sp3osj-pico-balloon-payload.jpg
[15:43] <Laurenceb__> and thats not built by sp3osj
[15:43] <Charlie_> oh fantastic
[15:43] <Charlie_> just found a promising GPS module too
[15:44] <adamgreig> is it in fact a ublox max m8
[15:44] <SA6BSS-Mike> floaters do use radiometrix, like edupic recent flights but its verry pricey so go with si44** if you can
[15:44] <Charlie_> that's the module there?
[15:44] <craag> lassen!
[15:44] <adamgreig> venus :)
[15:44] <Charlie_> rgr Mike
[15:45] <adamgreig> the radiometrix ntx2b and mtx2 are si406x modules inside anyway, but with a pic and a tcxo
[15:45] <adamgreig> easier to use and so forth
[15:48] <Charlie_> what about this one http://www.digikey.co.uk/product-detail/en/M10478-A1/627-1052-1-ND/3993158
[15:48] <Charlie_> built in antenna, about 1/3 price
[15:49] <Charlie_> or maybe not
[15:49] <adamgreig> £14 is a third the price?
[15:50] <Charlie_> I just checked the HAb supplies :o)
[15:50] <adamgreig> though note for serious business you'll want the MAX-M8C low voltage version which is out of stock on habsupplies
[15:50] <Charlie_> yep
[15:50] <SA6BSS-Mike> for gsp antenna just use a 45mm wire
[15:51] <Laurenceb__> actually I was thinking of that digikey module for pico
[15:51] <Charlie_> yeah but I'd trust a strip antenna over one of those
[15:51] <Laurenceb__> but only if the sirf binary protocol documentation can be found
[15:51] <Laurenceb__> id trust antenova
[15:52] <Laurenceb__> thing is it can go down to <400µW
[15:52] <Charlie_> All it needs is some support components and badda bing badda boom4
[15:52] <Laurenceb__> with the right config
[15:52] <Charlie_> yep
[15:52] <edmoore> note adamgreig's comment about the 1.8V max8
[15:52] <Laurenceb__> ublox cant come close
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[15:53] <Laurenceb__> 1.8v max8 is still much more power hungry
[15:53] <edmoore> http://www.telit.com/products/product-service-selector/product-service-selector/show/product/jupiter-se880/
[15:53] <edmoore> might consider that too
[15:54] <craag> ^^^ ed's been trying to persuade someone to use this for a while
[15:54] <edmoore> small and low power, and can use a single tcxo for that, your microcontroller and the si40xx
[15:54] <Laurenceb__> ooh telit have something decent
[15:54] <adamgreig> yea i have the se880 bookmarked for use soon too
[15:54] <craag> Does have a nice low power mode :)
[15:54] <Laurenceb__> reading...
[15:54] <adamgreig> usually hard to justify changing away from a ublox though
[15:55] <edmoore> it's been in my cache of interesting gps chips for a while
[15:55] <edmoore> for pico and lower alts anyway
[15:55] <Charlie_> yep Jupiter was another I was considering
[15:55] <Charlie_> I wonder if you can use them for higher alt
[15:55] <Laurenceb__> oh nice
[15:56] <Laurenceb__> its as good or better than antenova
[15:56] <edmoore> the jupiter?
[15:56] <edmoore> yeah
[15:56] <Laurenceb__> and lighter, nice find
[15:56] <Charlie_> does it mention any restrictions?
[15:56] <edmoore> i've been saying someone should try it for pico whenever anyone has aksed for some time now :)
[15:56] <Laurenceb__> hundreds of microwatts again
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[15:57] <adamgreig> well the antenova is specified as "<1g" weight so it's hard to tell if it's lighter ;)
[15:57] <Laurenceb__> its going to be a lot heavier
[15:57] <Charlie_> I wonder if the uni has an oven for reflowing smt
[15:58] <Charlie_> but remember Laurence that the jupiter is just the interface IC, you'll still need the pcb and external components
[15:58] <edmoore> £25 and you have an oven for reflowing smt
[15:58] <adamgreig> you still need to make a PCB anyway..
[15:58] <Charlie_> Which you'd need to be careful to ensure it doesn't creep to 1g anyway
[15:59] <Charlie_> link ed?
[15:59] <adamgreig> i think it would be very difficult to accidentally make a heavier system using the se880 than the antenova one
[15:59] <edmoore> well it has to go on a pcb anyway
[15:59] <adamgreig> argos.co.uk
[15:59] <edmoore> yeah
[15:59] <edmoore> https://www.flickr.com/photos/eroomde/sets/72157629174453806
[15:59] <edmoore> look at the oven
[15:59] <edmoore> £20 from argos
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[16:00] <arko> shiny
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[16:01] <Charlie_> good job
[16:02] <Laurenceb__> <Charlie_> EE Eng have a reflow oven
[16:02] <Charlie_> nice one
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[16:06] <Charlie_> i think ill start with the antenova
[16:06] <edmoore> be careful about lobbing them on big balloons
[16:06] <edmoore> because of the alt limit
[16:07] <Charlie_> oh yeah this was for a pico
[16:08] <Charlie_> convinced me to fly some qualatexs
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[16:08] <Charlie_> When it comes to those, what do you do for launches? Sill phone local ATC or just check for no planes above and launch?
[16:09] <Laurenceb__> for <2m, just launch them
[16:09] <Charlie_> ok
[16:09] <Laurenceb__> dont be stupid, no launches at an airport for example
[16:09] <gonzo_nb> check predictions just before launch
[16:10] <Charlie_> yeah
[16:11] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Kc9pon-11_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Kc9pon-11_chase
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[16:18] <Charlie_> If anyone is thinking of getting some antenova modules left me know, incase you want to split postage costs from SU
[16:18] <Charlie_> US
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[16:20] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AIRCOR-51 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=AIRCOR-51
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[16:27] <Charlie_> interesting seeing a balloon launched from 8km... used to near enough sea level in teh UK :P
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[16:29] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> ? Ground level is 1600m around there its just the first appearance on the map
[16:30] <Charlie_> doh
[16:30] <adamgreig> mt everest is 8.8km tall..
[16:30] <adamgreig> not much land that is 8km ASL
[16:30] <Charlie_> LOL
[16:31] <Charlie_> where do you see 1.6?
[16:31] <Charlie_> I'm clicking on the start and it say 6.8?
[16:31] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/2015_Flights/aircor-51.jpg
[16:32] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Use Google Earth much more informative!
[16:32] <Charlie_> ah right will do!
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[16:37] <Laurenceb__> Charlie_: go on then I'll bite
[16:37] <Laurenceb__> I'll take 2
[16:38] <Laurenceb__> also you dont have to ship them anywhere :D
[16:38] <Charlie_> I'm waiting until after my exams, but I might get like five
[16:38] <Charlie_> indeed so :D
[16:39] <Charlie_> If we can find some people to get another 3, we'll get into the price break
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[17:01] <Charlie_> http://www.hoperf.com/upload/rf/RFM68W-V1.2.pdf nice RF module?
[17:01] <Charlie_> with channel select too
[17:01] <adamgreig> again all these heavy things on their own PCBs are not the way to get a super lightweight tracker
[17:01] <adamgreig> that module is just another SI labs chip but with some RF components done for you
[17:02] <adamgreig> oh, no, the rfm68W is a semtech SX1243 RF chip
[17:02] <Charlie_> ah ok
[17:02] <adamgreig> so using the hoperf things is easier/simpler but heavier and more expensive basically
[17:03] <adamgreig> certainly a fine choice for a normal balloon tracker or to get started
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[17:28] <RealBorg> last signal from aircore @24380m
[17:36] <Charlie_> theres another
[17:42] <Ian_> What will Aircore-51 do when it gets to the end of that road?
[17:44] <Ian_> It looked like the prediction was following the road system,
[17:49] <Lunar_Lander> ah a NOAA flight
[17:49] <Lunar_Lander> thought so because of the name
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[17:54] <RealBorg> guess we're gonna hear a very faint popping noise soon ;)
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[17:59] <Ian_> I think, that given the wide open spaces, that if this flight follows the prediction, then either you are a band of geniuses, or have some very spawney luck.
[18:01] <Ian_> The prediction is pretty much following the road. I take it that there is rising ground (hills) that are influencing the winds somewhat?
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[18:08] <Ian_> Pop
[18:09] <Charlie_> I would say the biggest giveaway would be the river
[18:09] <Charlie_> Which the balloon is flying even more parallel with
[18:10] <Charlie_> However, from this point on, not too sure :P
[18:10] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03JACKAL3 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=JACKAL3
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[18:12] <Charlie_> ooh another S African one
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[18:21] <Ian_> Charlie How lucky does Aircore-51 really feel . . . Landing near the Pawnee Sportsman Centre - http://www.pawneesportsmenscenter.com/ Hmmmmm. Welcome to Murica Bang!
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[18:26] <Charlie_> Oh awesome :D
[18:26] <garymortimer> The same South African one ;-)
[18:27] <Charlie_> ly?
[18:27] <garymortimer> I expect to loose it this time though
[18:27] <Charlie_> oh :(
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[18:35] <RealBorg> noaa certainly knows what they are doing
[18:37] <edmoore> i think the usaf switched to the uk met office recently (or announced they would) because noaa performed worse than the met office consistently
[18:37] <edmoore> in predictions
[18:38] <edmoore> this caused some fuss needless to say
[18:39] <RealBorg> us military used to have their own weather agency
[18:41] <Ian_> I think that cost was also a factor.
[18:42] <RealBorg> cost was *the* factor
[18:43] <RealBorg> funny thing: little tiny austria here has a state owned civilian, an aviation and a military weather agency
[18:46] <Ian_> I can see that one day that will end up in a bun fight over funding. There must be a large pool of developed meteorological expertise on tap just now.
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[18:47] <Ian_> garymortimer, if the prediction is *very good* then you probably need the name of the farm and it's telephone number . . . :)
[18:47] <Ian_> Have them send out a small boy to earn a cash reward. Daddy can arrange the postage home.
[18:50] <Ian_> Ha ha, the prediction changed. The small boy will need to get his pal Flipper the dolphin on the job - that's an over the horizon dolphin too.
[18:51] <garymortimer> If it goes East of me I would not dare go into the areas, just too dangerous. Also the area is called the valley of a thousand hills so guess what that's all about. I am waiting for a Southerly towards more folks that can track in the big cities.
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[18:53] <garymortimer> Oh and postage don't really work here any more
[18:59] <Ian_> Yes, I guess if you can have a big house for a very good price and require a pallisade fence and lots of big dogs, then it's a bit unsettling.
[19:00] <Ian_> Is Jackal-3/3p airborne or still on the ground gary
[19:00] <Ian_> ?
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[19:03] <garymortimer> still on the ground
[19:03] <garymortimer> in fact i must go get it in!
[19:04] <Ian_> I guess that you are waiting on a good prediction. Shortage of good pubs?
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[19:07] <michemto> hi
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[19:09] <michemto> Could anyone share a little bit of knowledge with me.... I am measuring ropes for my flight and would like to know how far should be balloon from parachute and parachute from payload :P
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[19:09] <garymortimer> We are not bless with the wonderful pubs that you have over in Europe I do live near a brewery though http://www.rawdons.co.za/midlands-brewery-at-rawdons/ and thankfully micro brewing is gettin gpopular. I keep threatening to make cider to get back to my Westcountry roots but life keeps getting in the way
[19:11] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KD2IMA - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KD2IMA
[19:13] <edmoore> michemto, try 5m and 10m respectively
[19:13] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> michemto, Balloon to chute = 1/3, chute to payload =
[19:13] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> 2/3
[19:13] <Ian_> Lovely country, but safety has to be a serious consideration.
[19:14] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> That way any balloon remments don't foul the psyload
[19:14] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Typically 5m and 10m
[19:26] <michemto> So i have HY1600 balloon and 2kg payload + sperach 48" and will attach balloon with 5m of rope to the sperachute and then from spera with 10m of rope to payload
[19:27] <edmoore> sounds about right
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[20:12] <gangadhargs> hi
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[20:16] <Laurenceb_> hello
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[20:28] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03va6jws_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=va6jws_chase
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[20:36] <michemto> Another question about attaching the ropes... I would like to attach two crossed ropes for my payload - so it means that 4 ropes will come out from the top of payload... how long should those ropes be?
[20:36] <michemto> I will get another attachpoint so four-ropes will join to one
[20:36] <michemto> so i dont have to use 40m of rope :)
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[20:37] <Babs____> Bonjour
[20:37] <edmoore> eventard
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[20:38] <Babs____> Evening eroomde - in a departure from normal ballooning activity
[20:38] <Babs____> Tonight I am in a competitive Pom Pom making session with the wife
[20:38] <edmoore> i didn't know pom poms could be made at the amateur level
[20:39] <Babs____> She is getting pummelled, mine is like a thing of toroidal aerospace beauty
[20:39] <edmoore> moreover i didn't know if could be done competitively
[20:39] <Babs____> Made of wool
[20:39] <Babs____> As I told Mrs Babington, "to be competitive, you have to be able to compete"
[20:39] <Babs____> I got slapped
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[20:41] <Babs____> Anyway, away from Pom poms
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[20:42] <Babs____> I have an alexmos board which is designed to receive Pwm from a radio remote control handset
[20:42] <Babs____> Does anyone know its PWM range ie what I need to scale my 256 PWM to get the equivalent movement?
[20:43] <Babs____> Trial and error would also work but I thought I would ask in case anyone is a radio control enthusiast
[20:44] <edmoore> nfi
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[20:45] <Babs____> I guess just winding it up from 0 to 256, keeping the gyros stable and noting the gimbal movement will do the job
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[20:54] <Laurenceb_> http://i.imgur.com/sJDb3e6.png
[20:55] <Laurenceb_> ready for SLS time
[20:55] <edmoore> nice
[20:56] <Laurenceb_> hopefully it works this time...
[20:56] <Laurenceb_> I'm using off the shelf bearing units mounted in foam now
[20:57] <Laurenceb_> 61705-2RS and 61706-2RS
[20:57] <Laurenceb_> freecad 1.5 is very nice
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[20:58] <Laurenceb_> well... I'd like a way to turn on proper anti-aliasing
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[21:02] <Laurenceb_> the opencascade console is a seriously cool feature
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> but i need to learn how to use it more fully
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> shame it cant do full multiphysics
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> I've tried plugging into emler, got as far as running a model before realising I didnt know enough to create a numerically stable mesh :-S
[21:04] <SpeedEvil> It's a pity that wasn't a bit easier.
[21:04] <SpeedEvil> The feeling the existing solution would have worked if you'd added a spring, and a jacobs cracker for luck, or some random simulatable tweak.
[21:05] <Laurenceb_> heh I fear thats a bad idea
[21:05] <Laurenceb_> simulation says its on the verge of working and may just work with some tweaks...
[21:05] <SpeedEvil> And yes - believing simulations would add a whole meta level of fail.
[21:05] <Laurenceb_> but i dint know whats going to happen in a vacuum
[21:05] <Laurenceb_> and that
[21:06] <Laurenceb_> *dont
[21:06] <SpeedEvil> I was astonished at the number of species SpaceX tracks in their rocket simulation
[21:06] <Charlie_> whats the project
[21:06] <Laurenceb_> bearings with circumferential stiffness give orders of magnitude overdamping in simulation
[21:06] <Laurenceb_> so I'm happy
[21:07] <Laurenceb_> Charlie_: you will have to wait for the conference :P
[21:07] <Charlie_> :P
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[21:08] <RealBorg> what will be the title of your talk?
[21:08] <Laurenceb_> https://ukhas.org.uk/general:ukhasconference2015
[21:08] <Charlie_> im curious as to what the helix is for :| otherwise looks like a rocket
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[21:10] <SpeedEvil> The helix is because slinkies are cool.
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[21:11] <Charlie_> :P
[21:11] <michal_f> hi all
[21:11] <RealBorg> helix antenna?
[21:12] <michal_f> can you guys help me choose antenna for receiving 70cm ?
[21:12] <michal_f> (with airspy)
[21:12] <Charlie_> hi michael
[21:12] <michal_f> I know nothing about antennas
[21:12] <SpeedEvil> michal_f: what is your reciever?
[21:12] <michal_f> unfortunatelly
[21:12] <michal_f> airspy
[21:12] <SpeedEvil> oh
[21:12] <RealBorg> michal_f, what exactly do you want to receive?
[21:13] <michal_f> and I ordered pre-amp fropm hab supplies
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> michal_f: the simplest answer is to find a dipole, with the appropriate coax connector, and simply plug it in
[21:13] <michal_f> an NTX2b mounted on a baloloon ofcourse :)
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> A small yagi will greatly boost range.
[21:14] <RealBorg> michal_f, still depends on the antenna you use on the balloon
[21:14] <michal_f> i've been looking at diamond antennas, x50 and n200 - and wondered if they're ok
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> But is lots harder to use for mobile use
[21:14] <RealBorg> horizontal / vertical / circular polarized
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[21:15] <michal_f> well, I'm going to follow wiki for payload antenna
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> horizontal polarised would be kind of silly
[21:15] <michal_f> so a coaxial whip with four side wires (whatever the're called)
[21:15] <RealBorg> indeed
[21:16] <RealBorg> then you have a vertical polarized quarter wave with reflector
[21:16] <RealBorg> build a second one and use that as receiving antenna
[21:17] <RealBorg> or - if you know the location of your balloon - use a yagi
[21:17] <michal_f> you suggest building my own? I've been looking at x50 and n200 copy plans and wondered how hard is it to build them 0 assuming i'll only receive
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[21:17] <michal_f> yagi might not be the good idea, I plan to start not far away from base
[21:18] <RealBorg> building an antenna for receiving is usually easier than for transmitting
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[21:19] <michal_f> SWR is not that importand then - right ?
[21:19] <RealBorg> basically any long wire would do
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[21:19] <Laurenceb_> http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36313.3380
[21:19] <Laurenceb_> whyyyyyyyyy
[21:19] <Laurenceb_> 170 pages
[21:20] <Laurenceb_> lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2-cgVoLUJ8w
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[21:22] <RealBorg> ROTFLCOPTERGTFO
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[21:24] <michal_f> so if I decide to build my own, should I GO with a x200 copy or just a plain long wire ?
[21:25] <michal_f> i found this for example: http://www.qsl.net/4/4x6on/RADIO%20MANUALS/ANTENNAS/ANTENTOP--X200-RV9CX-VU-Antenna.pdf
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[21:26] <michal_f> if a whip antenna is sufficient to hear a ballon from, say 100km I'd rather stay with simpler solution :)
[21:26] <tweetBot> @crispSV: #J43VHF AEOLUS-2WAY balloon payload #amsat #hab #ukhas #hamr #hamradio http://t.co/4IATQD6vuX
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[21:26] <RealBorg> michal_f, x200 ist dual frequency - that's making it so complicated
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[21:27] <tweetBot> @crispSV: #J43VHF AEOLUS-2WAY balloon launch #amsat #hab #ukhas #hamr #hamradio http://t.co/jNEqWsjOmt
[21:27] <RealBorg> michal_f, http://www.rason.org/Projects/collant/collant.htm
[21:27] <RealBorg> that's much easier to build
[21:27] <michal_f> thx I'll have a look now
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[21:30] <Charlie_> Laurence what is the guy in the youtube trying to do?
[21:31] <RealBorg> Charlie_, http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=20140006052
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[21:31] <Charlie_> Oh that thing
[21:31] <Charlie_> Is that what you're trying to do?
[21:32] <Laurenceb_> lolno
[21:32] <Charlie_> :P
[21:32] <Charlie_> So your cad model...
[21:32] <Charlie_> Yellow thing a rocket, right?
[21:32] <tweetBot> @crispSV: #J43VHF AEOLUS-2WAY balloon filling #amsat #hab #ukhas #hamr #hamradio http://t.co/iVZmS6riFN
[21:33] <RealBorg> one must have lost all objective when trying to recreate a nasa experiment using a low torque pendulum at home
[21:33] <Charlie_> indeed Borg
[21:34] <Laurenceb_> yeah the "nasa" thing was silly
[21:34] <Laurenceb_> but thats a silly way to "test", stupid^2
[21:34] <Laurenceb_> nice construction tho
[21:34] <RealBorg> indeed
[21:34] <Charlie_> I was like "is there supposed to be something happening here"? :P
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[21:35] <RealBorg> if he had at least used a laser interferometer to detect movement
[21:36] <tweetBot> @crispSV: #J43VHF AEOLUS-2WAY recovery #amsat #hab #ukhas #hamr #hamradio http://t.co/BnNC9i2j8R
[21:36] <Laurenceb_> to be fair the information theoretical inertia guys say "emdrive" should work
[21:36] <Laurenceb_> but they also say neutrons should have no gravitational mass
[21:37] <Charlie_> hmm :|
[21:38] <RealBorg> who says that?
[21:38] <Laurenceb_> MHicS or whatever the thing is called
[21:38] <Laurenceb_> MOND alternative with gravity swapped for inertia
[21:39] <RealBorg> ah, you mean that funny theory
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> http://arxiv.org/abs/1302.2775
[21:40] <RealBorg> is that the boeing proposal?
[21:41] <Charlie_> Does anyone know if the superpressure balloons from here have been used in UK? http://www.weatherballoon.co.jp/pages/english/3superpb.html
[21:41] <michal_f> RealBorg: thanks for that link - I think I go that route
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[21:44] <RealBorg> michal_f, you're welcome
[21:44] <RealBorg> btw, I am pretty certain I will use a polarized antenna
[21:44] <RealBorg> +circular
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[21:46] <RealBorg> http://www.g0cwt.co.uk/magloops/new_page_5.htm
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[21:49] <Charlie_> loops are great when you get like 10kV across the caps XD
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[21:50] <richardeoin> Charlie_: I've don't believe anyone has used any balloons from there
[21:50] <Charlie_> Ok, thats interesting richard.
[21:51] <richardeoin> the tetrahedral shape initially looks good because you get a good volume / surface area
[21:51] <richardeoin> but there's large stresses on the corners
[21:51] <richardeoin> full discussion section 3.1.2 http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/297099.pdf
[21:52] <richardeoin> the ghost program dismissed them pretty quickly, section II.D http://nldr.library.ucar.edu/repository/assets/technotes/TECH-NOTE-000-000-000-021.pdf
[21:53] <RealBorg> what's so special about high pressure balloons?
[21:54] <RealBorg> I think they are for lower altitudes anyway
[21:56] <Charlie_> @richard, yeah I agree with tetra but the japs website says they also do ball shapes (presume translation of sphere)
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[22:08] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[22:17] <Charlie_> So was there not a ukhas conference in 2013 and 14?
[22:18] <danielsaul> Charlie_: there was, https://ukhas.org.uk/general:conferences
[22:19] <Charlie_> ah right, bactv? Could I record them and put them on YouTube?
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[22:20] <Charlie_> like has anyone even heard of batc tv ? :P
[22:21] <danielsaul> batc provided the live streaming
[22:21] <Charlie_> Ah ok
[22:21] <danielsaul> and a number of people use them for streaming their launches
[22:21] <Charlie_> Do you think anyone would have a problem if I put them on Youtube? Might get some more exposure that way.
[22:22] <danielsaul> Best to talk to Upu
[22:23] <Charlie_> Does Upu come on often?
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[22:28] <danielsaul> Yep, he'll be around
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[22:29] <Charlie_> ok cool
[22:29] <danielsaul> I can see the appeal of collating them all into one ukhas channel
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[22:30] <Charlie_> Yeah
[22:30] <Charlie_> What surprises me is how the UK seems to be main hub of amatuer ballooning atm
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[22:32] <RealBorg> me too
[22:42] <Laurenceb_> http://chrishecker.com/Kurt_G%C3%B6del_is_Laughing_His_Ass_Off_Right_Now
[22:42] <Laurenceb_> im lolling too
[22:46] <Charlie_> LOL
[22:46] <Charlie_> ah i remember the days of that doing my maths homework
[22:47] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[23:10] <Ian_> michal_f bear in mind that the antenna project x200 isn't necessarily meaning Diamond x200 Here is a comparison of collinear antenas http://pastebin.com/XjNg3z04
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[23:59] <michal_f> thx Ian_
[23:59] <michal_f> bya
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[00:00] --- Fri May 15 2015