highaltitude.log.20150513

[00:01] <SpeedEvil> Life got in the way.
[00:02] <Charlie_> I can imagine.
[00:02] <Charlie_> Any idea as to what material might have been used?
[00:03] <craag> He originally used the well-known qualatex 36" balloons
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> The advanced ones are some packaging film
[00:04] <craag> But then started making his own to get more volume
[00:07] <Charlie_> yes.
[00:07] <Charlie_> Many thanks.
[00:08] <Charlie_> I have thought about using lay flat plastic film tubing.
[00:08] <Charlie_> Similar to the balloons with chocolate that the South Koreans flew into North Korea (obviously I won't be filling them quite so much!)
[00:09] <Charlie_> Seems an easier way to get a sealed envelop that is big.
[00:09] <craag> the sealing is the fun part
[00:10] <craag> (so I've heard)
[00:10] <Charlie_> the finding out you have a micro leak isn't though :D
[00:10] <Charlie_> Do you know of anyone else who has done this?
[00:25] <SpeedEvil> Lay-flat tubing is PE
[00:25] <SpeedEvil> - generally
[00:25] <SpeedEvil> PE sucks badly
[00:26] <SpeedEvil> It's not terrible, but it has lousy permeability and other parameters
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[00:26] <SpeedEvil> you're not getting a 6mo flight from it thoguh
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[00:37] <Charlie_> Suggest any better plastics to look out for?
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[00:44] <SpeedEvil> http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Five-layer-Co-extrusion-Blown-EVOH_1585430301.html?s=p
[00:45] <SpeedEvil> you want multi-layer packaging film really - EVOH is good - I dn't have any nice links
[00:45] <SpeedEvil> http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Multi-layer-food-packing-High-Barrier_1900358455.html?s=p
[00:46] <Charlie_> interesting
[00:49] <Charlie_> Does He/H2 not diffuse easily through those?
[00:52] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03JB-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=JB-1
[00:52] <SpeedEvil> Charlie_: No - not for the right film
[00:52] <Charlie_> ah ok
[00:52] <SpeedEvil> (that was a randomly picked film)
[00:52] <Charlie_> Oh fair enough :D
[00:53] <Charlie_> I'm sure I'll be able to find something out. :/
[00:53] <lz1dev> !hysplit add JB-1
[00:53] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Added 03JB-1 to defaults
[00:53] <lz1dev> !hysplit run JB-1
[00:53] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Your job has been added to the queue. Check in a few minutes
[00:53] <Charlie_> It is a final year project idea you see.
[00:54] <Charlie_> I have launched several latex balloons already - very fun. But to be able to design something as light as possible and fly for longer would be a great deal of fun.
[00:54] <Charlie_> However, I would like to make sure it is reasonably feasible before I commit.
[00:55] <Charlie_> hi lz1dev! your balloon looks very good!
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[01:00] <lz1dev> Charlie_: its not mine
[01:01] <Charlie_> oh :| sorry
[01:01] <Charlie_> you did a good job with the link then! :)
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[02:02] <KM4FSW> to whomever fixed JB-1 so it was on habhub, thank you!
[02:17] <Charlie_> B64 wow
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[02:33] <lz1dev> KM4FSW: is JB-1 yours?
[02:34] <KM4FSW> yes
[02:35] <lz1dev> you should use valid callsigns next
[02:35] <lz1dev> at least 3 characters
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[04:26] <Vaizki> morning
[04:27] <Vaizki> oo hong kong balloon..
[04:32] <Vaizki> ok what the.. according to telemetry JB-1 was launched right next to the airport, then flew past the end of HKG airport runways at 200-800m height, crashed in the hills at Tai Wai, was driven BACK to HKG outskirts and launched again for a journey out to sea?
[04:32] <Vaizki> please tell me I'm reading this wrong...
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[06:21] <garymortimer> Jackal3P will not be flying this AM, maybe at the weekend. Weather horrid
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[08:45] <infaddict> ping Upu
[08:45] <infaddict> Backup tracker recieved thanks
[08:45] <UpuWork> nps
[08:46] <UpuWork> pay attention to the polarity of the battery
[08:46] <infaddict> nice and small/light
[08:46] <UpuWork> its on the PCB but hard to see
[08:46] <UpuWork> when the green LED blinks its ready to go
[08:46] <infaddict> ok i see the + and - on the bottom, will be careful with that
[08:46] <infaddict> green LEN = GPS lock on?
[08:46] <infaddict> LED
[08:46] <UpuWork> yeah locked and ready to go
[08:46] <infaddict> cool
[08:46] <UpuWork> red means something isn't right
[08:47] <infaddict> ok will work out a way to seal the egg and safely suspended beneath main payload
[08:48] <UpuWork> throw it all in, tie a string round the tracker (make sure when it goes taught it does pop the battery out) gaffer it up, tie string on your cord somewhere
[08:48] <UpuWork> doesn't matter if it bounces about a bit
[08:48] <UpuWork> that trackers been up 3 times
[08:49] <daveake> Great backups those things
[08:52] <infaddict> hoping the extra weight doesnt muck up my chute/balloon calcs but its nice and light so should be fine ;-) thx again!
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[08:55] <mykii_> https://twitter.com/mykiimike/status/598410724596162560
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[09:11] <edmoore> which UK DIY places offer a timer and board cutting service?
[09:12] <mykii_> hi edmoore
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[09:15] <amell> edmoore: they all stopped due to H&S !!
[09:15] <amell> edmoore: is it timber?
[09:15] <edmoore> is that actually correct - they have *all* stopped because of H+S?
[09:15] <edmoore> amell, timber and board
[09:16] <gonzo_> will you be buying the timber, or do you have it already?
[09:16] <amell> the chain ones, yes. If you want timber cutting to size, go to a specialist timber merchant. Ridgeons, Travis Perkins
[09:16] <edmoore> i want to make an electronics workbench and shelves at home, would rather just draw up a cutting list and take it to a diy shop
[09:16] <gonzo_> B&Q usually have a cutting svc
[09:16] <amell> B and Q, homebase, wickes etc no longer cut boards.
[09:16] <amell> gonzo_: they stopped that.
[09:16] <gonzo_> they still do here
[09:17] <amell> gonzo_: well, its certainly not available in any of the ones round cambridge area, much to my disgust.
[09:17] <gonzo_> the only thin k they don't do is doors, as they are full of metal bits
[09:17] <amell> gonzo_: where are you?
[09:17] <gonzo_> poole, dorset
[09:17] <edmoore> i don't have anything yet
[09:17] <amell> is it a very large B and Q?
[09:17] <edmoore> i was just going to design it and then make a cutting list
[09:17] <edmoore> then screw it together once home
[09:18] <amell> have you considered just using kitchen range stuff? all precut.
[09:19] <gonzo_> http://www.diy.com/store/Poole/BQ_POO746?fromAddress=BH15%2C+United+Kingdom&distance=0.43031855796535035&fromPage=&clickCollect=false&wishListCCFlag=&wishlistId=&changeStore=false&lat=50.7300034&storeName=Poole&lng=-1.9855431&productPageURL=&storeId=BQ_POO746
[09:19] <amell> clinical white, for all those lost tiny smd components :)
[09:19] <gonzo_> ouch.... but it does list the services.
[09:19] <edmoore> well i want to have backing bits for shlves and so on
[09:20] <amell> Thats interesting most of them do list timber cutting but every time i have been there they say they cant do it.
[09:20] <amell> so now i just take a rechargeable circular saw and do it in the car park.
[09:21] <edmoore> aylesbury b+q do timer cutting
[09:21] <edmoore> that might do
[09:21] <amell> I wonder if the issue is lack of suitable qualified staff.
[09:21] <gonzo_> the cambs and st.neots B&Q show timber cutting svc
[09:21] <amell> ive asked numerous times for large boards to be cut to spec to fit in car, they say no&.
[09:21] <gonzo_> probably space, as the cutting system is pretty huge
[09:22] <amell> edmoore: give it a try, but prepare to be disappointed.
[09:23] <gonzo_> here they are great. You don't mind paying over the odds for the timber, to get it cut
[09:23] <gonzo_> (they allow so many cuts per beard, then charge 50p per cut after that
[09:23] <edmoore> i could cut it myself but would rather save all the buying of circular saws and vacuuming sawdust
[09:23] <edmoore> keep it electronics-lab clean
[09:23] <amell> you dont own one? I have four&
[09:24] <edmoore> i have one at my parents
[09:24] <edmoore> could reclaim it
[09:24] <gonzo_> I used to be able to get 4x8ft boards inside the old car. This one has a roof rack so not tried
[09:24] <edmoore> but really i don't have much space for serious powertools at my house
[09:24] <edmoore> yeah not gonna get an bby4 in my car
[09:24] <amell> rechargeable portable circular saws are so awesome. i can cut anywhere.
[09:24] <edmoore> 8by4*
[09:25] <gonzo_> anope, they won't go in sideways
[09:25] <amell> wickes refused to cut some insulation board for me it was huge. so i did it in the car park, cue mini-blizzard.
[09:25] <edmoore> lol
[09:25] <edmoore> i'd love a garage and a pickup
[09:26] <gonzo_> garages lead to all sorts of follies
[09:26] <edmoore> maybe if i move to sheffield
[09:26] <amell> move out to mid USA, you can then have a gigantic garage and stupid V8 pickup.
[09:26] <gonzo_> or a rougher area
[09:27] <gonzo_> do you have to live in a triler park to drive a pickup?
[09:28] <amell> the trailer parks round here seem to have new mercedes and beamers.
[09:28] <amell> im suspicious of the provenance of the funds.
[09:28] <amell> how does someone who lives in a trailer afford a SLK?
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[09:31] <adamgreig> by living in a trailer quite possibly
[09:32] <gonzo_> or that is why the live in a trailer
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[09:40] <sq5kvs> Hi all
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[09:44] <Dread> hi.
[09:50] <edmoore> greetings Dread
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[10:00] <Ian_> Cutting service is the only reason that I buy my 18mm x 8' x 4' ply at B&Q. I have brought and brought on the roof rack, but wouldn't contemplate it on anything but a very calm day.
[10:01] <Ian_> You don't have to be a rocket scientist to find yourself in the perceptual gliding game with large board on the rack, with your eyes rotating on the lookout for Mr Plod and his Blues n Two's..
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[10:05] <infaddict> My local B&Q still do board cutting, but its a large superstore. I have my own tools but prefer to mess up their floor not mine ;-)
[10:05] <infaddict> Local timber merchants also do the same at often better prices
[10:09] <murb> infaddict: hasn't closed yet then?
[10:09] <infaddict> The merchant?
[10:10] <infaddict> We have about 3 or 4 timber merchants still going strong in the town. If I want good quality (straight) timber I use them. If I need sommick out of hours or quickly I goto B&Q.
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[10:24] <Ian_> I went to a timber merchant a few years ago and they would sell and cut plywood but the setup cost was designed to pay for the new saw obviously.
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[10:25] <Ian_> I get good straight, square edges on my sub-boards which allow me to work with them. 8x4ft is just too difficult to keep everything square for me.
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[10:40] <KM4FSW> Vaizki: the test run was not real, it was a simulation
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[10:41] <craag> KM4FSW: So it was simulated aprs data?
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[11:25] <Charlie_> hi :)
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[11:52] <craag> KM4FSW: There's an unwritten spec to APRS, that callsigns must be a minimum of 3 characters in length.
[11:53] <craag> Some of the aprs.fi infrastructure works anyway (eg. the map), other bits don't, and just discard it (eg. the backend servers that the habhub map talks to)
[11:53] <craag> Credit goes to lz1dev for tracking this down.
[11:54] <mattbrejza> lol aprs
[11:55] <Vaizki> I thought you are not allowed to igate anything to aprs if it is not rf-originated :P
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[11:58] <lz1dev> Vaizki: you can do whatever you want
[11:59] <Vaizki> refreshing idea but somehow I think not? :)
[11:59] <craag> For doing anything on aprs there's a tax
[11:59] <craag> In free space in your junk mail folder
[12:00] <craag> From people complaining that "It's what it was designed for!"
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[12:00] <lz1dev> how would they know your email tho?
[12:01] <craag> Ah my email is on my website
[12:01] <adamgreig> mistake #1 :p
[12:02] <craag> I ran an aprs digipeater in the back of my car for a month
[12:02] <craag> that really riled them
[12:02] <lz1dev> yep, there isn't an icon for a mobile digi
[12:02] <Vaizki> "them"?
[12:03] <Ian_> Oink, oink !
[12:03] <Vaizki> it's not mobile, it's just continuously relocating temporarily
[12:03] <craag> the local "aprs digipeater group"
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[12:04] <craag> Yeah had gps beacon - so this digipeater-icon did circuits of the M27 every day :)
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[12:05] <craag> One email tried to point out that lugging a digipeater to work and back every day was hurting the environment.
[12:05] <adamgreig> wow
[12:05] <Vaizki> :D
[12:06] <Ian_> It's one way of flushing out the local APRS fanboys
[12:06] <adamgreig> aprs digimangler more fun
[12:06] <Vaizki> only reason to not have a mobile digipeater is to avoid WIDEn-N broadcast ping pong and the associated rf congestion
[12:06] <adamgreig> mutate callsigns, positions, etc
[12:06] <craag> I sent them a photo of ublox+pi+wouxon handheld and didn't hear back
[12:06] <Vaizki> but I'm not a HAM or even licensed to think about it ;
[12:06] <Vaizki> ;)
[12:07] <Ian_> You would need a licence to think about it, for sure!
[12:07] <Vaizki> I know.
[12:07] <craag> Vaizki: It was a viscous digi, only repeated origin beacons, and only if a repeat wasn't heard in 5 seconds.
[12:08] <Vaizki> oo hifipeater
[12:08] <Vaizki> I'm sure you used a computer for it too. which adds insult to injury.
[12:09] <Vaizki> worst case, there was a RTL-SDR involved :(
[12:09] <craag> pi + soundcard + wouxon handheld
[12:10] <craag> it did rx-igating too for a bit - but I didn't have reliable 3g back then.
[12:10] <Ian_> Baffled by your technical prowess and embarrassed to the hilt I would imagine
[12:11] Nick change: bairdynomnom_ -> baird
[12:14] <craag> Put me off getting any more involved. That and it got dull rather quickly ;)
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[12:27] <infaddict> anybody know of any launches from North of England? Never seen one in my limited time here.
[12:28] <edmoore> it's grim up north
[12:28] <daveake> They happen but not so often as the south
[12:28] <infaddict> hehe
[12:28] <daveake> it's narrow oop north
[12:28] <infaddict> narrower country doesnt help
[12:28] <daveake> also airports
[12:28] <infaddict> yer daveake my next question was what makes a good launch site. are there rules re airports upon both launch and landing or in between?
[12:29] <edmoore> no hard rules
[12:29] <edmoore> but you're much less likely to get a notam near an airport
[12:29] <daveake> and you're much more likely to have a restriction
[12:29] <edmoore> if your flight path prediction takes you near an airport, you don't fly that day
[12:29] <daveake> which will generally be "has to fly away from airport"
[12:29] <edmoore> basically
[12:29] <edmoore> likewise cities
[12:30] <infaddict> mmm
[12:34] <Charlie_> Hi everyone :)
[12:34] <infaddict> hi Charlie_
[12:35] <Charlie_> Can I ask if you know about building super pressure balloons? Like b64?
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[12:35] <edmoore> don't ask to ask on irc
[12:35] <Charlie_> haha, oops of course. :D
[12:36] <Charlie_> What do you guys know about building super pressure balloons, like b64? The website doesnt have any information regarding materials, design, etc.
[12:36] <gonzo_> That looked like a question, rather than a request to ask
[12:37] <Charlie_> @gonzo indeed, see my actual q above at 1336.
[12:38] <gonzo_> others know more, but I recall that they were custom made, using a roll of metalised film (mylar?) and a bag sealing machine
[12:40] <gonzo_> http://leobodnar.com/balloons/
[12:40] <gonzo_> not metalised, looking at the pictures
[12:40] <Charlie_> Yes I have seen that, but unfortunately he doesn't describe the design at all. :\
[12:41] <Charlie_> But the pictures are most interesting.
[12:42] <edmoore> well it's two sheets of the right sort of material heat-welded together
[12:43] <edmoore> you can use off the shelf qualtax balloons if you don't mind floating a bit lower
[12:43] <edmoore> and not as long (higher is better for various reasons)
[12:43] <Charlie_> so any mylar type of plastic?
[12:43] <edmoore> no
[12:43] <edmoore> Laurenceb__ knows the right sort of material names
[12:44] <adamgreig> lots of acronyms
[12:44] <Charlie_> Okay cool.
[12:44] <richardeoin> I've been investigating this too
[12:44] <edmoore> if you want to play pico i'd just start with qualtex balloons
[12:44] <Charlie_> Yes adam, can be quite confusing ;)
[12:44] <edmoore> they'll get you days of float
[12:45] <edmoore> if you know what you're doing and can make a flight computer without much risk of it failing then i guess you probs want to dive into custom balloons from the get-go
[12:45] <Charlie_> That is the plan Ed.
[12:45] <richardeoin> Afaik you need a co-extruded film with EVOH (Ethylene vinyl alcohol) and polyamide layers
[12:46] <Charlie_> Truth be told, I am looking at this for a final year project for my Electronic Engineeirng degree.
[12:46] <richardeoin> probably nylon for the polyamide layer
[12:46] <adamgreig> have you heard of metalocene being used in balloon films?
[12:46] <Charlie_> And the advantage of that is the uni will pay for at least part of the project, so I thought why not give it a shot?
[12:47] <gonzo_> Charlie_, make it simple, light and don't just try and use a Pi!
[12:47] <Charlie_> oh no
[12:47] <Charlie_> So far I plan to build my own gps module, complete with (possibly) a tiny camera module with a SSTV downlink.
[12:47] <richardeoin> If you have $2000+ you can probably get a short run of custom film done
[12:48] <richardeoin> Not heard of metaocene at all adamgreig
[12:48] <Charlie_> The uni is very much into 'outreach' programs too, so I thought maybe including some ultrabright LEDs so it would be visible for some period at night would be cool too.
[12:48] <Charlie_> Unfortunately I dont have $2k lol.
[12:49] <adamgreig> i'd probably get some off-the-shelf qualatex balloons and get a working flight computer/radio
[12:49] <Charlie_> metalocene is a new one to me, adamgreig.
[12:49] <adamgreig> you'll get some days of floating
[12:49] <richardeoin> Haha :-) Which uni are you at Charlie_?
[12:49] <gonzo_> the float height of a small balloon will be 3-10km. So seeing LEDs iver that distance could be a challenge
[12:49] <Charlie_> Would you like to see my working SSTV test card?
[12:49] <adamgreig> and doing the electronics is probably at least a bit non trivial depending on your background
[12:49] <adamgreig> sure
[12:50] <Charlie_> gonzo, the japanese made a cubsat which was visible from space.
[12:50] <adamgreig> 'visible from space' means a lot of things
[12:50] <Charlie_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LnLj1ePViA
[12:50] <gonzo_> I don't thionk anyone has flown a SSTV/SSDV payload from a pico balloon
[12:50] <adamgreig> I assume you've seen the electronics on B64 - you'll want something broadly competitive (so, solar powered, 11g total mass, probably APRS+70cm radio, etc) which is a fair bit of dev work
[12:50] <gonzo_> you will be limit to <50gm of payload
[12:51] <Charlie_> yep adam here is the satellite form ground (10cm x 10cm x10cm) http://i.huffpost.com/gen/973089/thumbs/o-FITSAT-570.jpg?7
[12:52] <Charlie_> adam, yes some very nice design work on the B64.
[12:52] <richardeoin> I'm not sure how critical the payload weight is for a custom envelope actually
[12:52] <Charlie_> The youtube video shows only my transmission, the SSTV decoder isn't my own (yet).
[12:53] <Charlie_> @richard, my thoughts exactly. I mean to go to the other extreme, NASA lifts tons (albeit with a massive balloon).
[12:53] <richardeoin> For a qualatex low mass is very important, but if you control the envelope and have the right material..
[12:53] <adamgreig> richardeoin: you can just make a bigger envelope, right? but if you want to avoid requiring special permission to launch, it must be under 2m diameter throughout the flight
[12:53] <Charlie_> I am not expecting to lift tons, btw :o)
[12:54] <Charlie_> adam, NOTAM are not an issue for me, I've done a couple of latex balloons before.
[12:55] <edmoore> oh so you might want to build a biggun then
[12:55] <adamgreig> floating a balloon at plane-cruising-altitude for days is a slightly different affair to a quickly-up-and-down latex flight
[12:55] <Charlie_> Really, the only size issue for me would be cost - I don't want it to spiral tooo much out of control.
[12:55] <Charlie_> adam, of course.
[12:55] <Charlie_> Personally, I would be more comfortable going higher than plane altitude (of course, bigger balloon and smaller payload).
[12:56] <Charlie_> even by 10kft to say 50 or 60kft
[12:56] <edmoore> if this is an EE final i'd echo adam
[12:56] <adamgreig> have you done much electronics design and manufacture?
[12:56] <edmoore> qualtex balloon, concentrate on small electornics
[12:57] <edmoore> building DIY super pressure balloosn is its own research program
[12:57] <Charlie_> @ adam, yep, I do a lot of electronics as a hobby too.
[12:57] <Charlie_> Also into amateur radio
[12:58] <adamgreig> well, that's a good sort of background to have!
[12:58] <Charlie_> :)
[12:58] <adamgreig> got any examples of stuff you've made? just curious :)
[12:58] <richardeoin> edmoore: you could easily do a mech eng final on super pressure balloons, testing various materials etc :-P
[12:58] <Charlie_> True rich
[13:00] <Charlie_> @adam, my photobucket account is playing up atm, but I've made a time domain reflectometer, several fm radios, sdr for decoding NOAA satellite images (and of course a QFH :)), this summer I've got a placement at the uni to study a new type of antenna I've been developing for about two years now.
[13:02] <adamgreig> cool!
[13:02] <adamgreig> what sort of antenna?
[13:02] <Charlie_> I've tried dabbling in reverse engineering a gameboy to play with friends over the internet, but that's kind of not going so well...
[13:03] <infaddict> Sounds good Charlie_... what Uni are you at?
[13:03] <Charlie_> infa I'm at nottingham
[13:03] <Charlie_> The antenna is a plasma antenna - instead of metal it is 'made' from plasma
[13:03] <craag> sounds fun
[13:03] <craag> !
[13:04] <adamgreig> mm, so pretty easy to fold up? :p
[13:04] <infaddict> haha
[13:04] <adamgreig> i've seen some quite cute water based antennas for boats and things
[13:04] <adamgreig> where you use a jet of sea water
[13:04] <Charlie_> Currently very little research has been done with them, but where my idea differs from the rest is that I won;t be making the plasma for the antenna. My idea is to use plasma that is already made by another process.
[13:04] <Charlie_> Yeah I've seen those
[13:05] <adamgreig> what sort of antenna design do you make with the plasma?
[13:05] <Charlie_> Areas include hypersonic aircraft, space capsules on reentry, ion engines etc
[13:05] <Charlie_> Basically any.
[13:05] <Charlie_> The plasma couples almost identically as metal
[13:06] <adamgreig> sure, but it's somewhat trickier to shape than metal?
[13:06] <Charlie_> So if you can shape the plasma into the same shape as a metal antenna, it with propogate just the same
[13:06] <adamgreig> sure
[13:06] <adamgreig> that seems like the tricky part
[13:06] <Charlie_> true, mostly they are currently simple dipoles, I have seen a yagi though.
[13:07] <Charlie_> But my idea is to use, say the sheath of plasma around a spacecraft, as the antenna.
[13:07] <Charlie_> Rather than making any plasma ourselves.
[13:07] <Charlie_> Or the plasma emitted from an ion engine.
[13:08] <Charlie_> That way, you can save mass on a space probe, as your exhaust is the antenna, rather than some chuck of metal.
[13:08] <adamgreig> nice, given the sheath of plasma around a reentry body usually breaks your RF link rather than establishes it
[13:08] <Charlie_> indeed
[13:08] <adamgreig> how do you shape it into an antenna though?
[13:08] <adamgreig> lot of high energy and fast moving plasma
[13:08] <Charlie_> If hypersonic planes become a 'thing', that means they'd otherwise have no RF comms
[13:08] <adamgreig> scary magnets also resemble large chunks of metal so presumably something cleverer
[13:08] <Charlie_> Can I be rude and leave for about 10 mins? I need to grab some lunch before the bar closes!
[13:09] <adamgreig> of course :)
[13:09] <adamgreig> I should probably do some work anyway ;)
[13:16] <Charlie_> haha
[13:16] <Charlie_> balloons are too interesting
[13:17] <Charlie_> But I was told that the electronics for a latex flight would likely be too simple, and that a long endurance flight would definitely be more suitable.
[13:18] <Charlie_> Which I can sort of understand.
[13:18] <adamgreig> my best advice would be to work out what your project actually is, and what's just secondary - if you're doing EE then presumably the electronics are the key thing and making your own plastic balloons is not going to win you points
[13:18] <KM4FSW> thanks craag: i'll not do that in the future
[13:19] <adamgreig> so you'd be much better off using off-the-shelf balloons (very cheap and easy to get) while you work on the electronics, which you can make quite advanced and sophisticated and worthwhile of your final project
[13:19] <adamgreig> then if you still have time after that, you can swap to putting these electronics on your own home-made balloons (even doing so outside of your actual academic project)
[13:20] <adamgreig> I might be misunderstanding what your supervisor cares about though!
[13:20] <Charlie_> No that makes sense.
[13:21] <Charlie_> I wonder if you could even link a chain of, say, 10 of the shelf balloons to get some extra altitude?
[13:21] <adamgreig> sadly it doesn't really scale like that
[13:21] <adamgreig> you could get more lift capacity
[13:22] <adamgreig> well, I'm not sure, do the maths
[13:22] <adamgreig> but I would focus on the electronics first and foremost!
[13:22] <Charlie_> yep
[13:22] <adamgreig> having said that if someone told me what to focus on in my final university project I'd have laughed at them and continued as-was, so I understand if you don't want to take advice :p
[13:23] <edmoore> it's a question of how confident you are that you can get a good mark regardless
[13:23] <edmoore> fairly easy with masters projects iirc
[13:24] <Charlie_> lol adam, any advice is welcome
[13:24] <adamgreig> yea my experience is that like 90% of the mark comes from your final writeup which is two days of typing furiously
[13:24] <Charlie_> true ed
[13:24] <adamgreig> so whatever you actually did or did not do is somewhat besides the point
[13:24] <Charlie_> two days and a six pack of red bull :P
[13:25] <edmoore> exactly so ^
[13:25] <Charlie_> Worst case I could even have a back up that i suspend from a tree or something for a week to show it still transmitting location/whatever
[13:27] <edmoore> again, probably decide what the goal is
[13:27] <edmoore> low power or sending pictures or whatever
[13:28] <Charlie_> There's a rather 'infamous' final year project which was really straight forward, but the guy was lazy and couldnt get it to work (some simple robot I think). Still did a write up and passed though.
[13:28] <Charlie_> yeah ed
[13:28] <mattbrejza> you can always have ground level tests: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHHeOpNwYbw&t=4m26s
[13:28] <Charlie_> I've developed three objectives (in importance)
[13:28] <edmoore> if it's just transmitting location then that might be a bit simples as you say
[13:28] <Charlie_> 1) transmit location, 2)transmit SSTV images, 3) high power LEDs for outreach potential
[13:29] <edmoore> ok. you could do all of those with a latex balloon i think
[13:29] <Charlie_> I found a pic yesterday that has a sleep current draw of 22nA.
[13:29] <infaddict> yep edmoore was about to say same thing. do all the fancy electronics for your 3 objs on a latex balloon.
[13:30] <edmoore> you'll find the draw of the microcontroller is a pretty small contributor overall
[13:30] <Charlie_> yeah, but the challenge comes from the long endurance.
[13:30] <edmoore> compared to the radio and the gps
[13:30] <Charlie_> of for sure
[13:30] <edmoore> there is no long endurance mentioned in your 3 points!
[13:30] <edmoore> engineers work to a spec :)
[13:30] <Charlie_> But the thing with teh latex is I wouldn't need to worry about battery power
[13:31] <infaddict> but is float time an objective for you?
[13:31] <Charlie_> hmm
[13:32] <Charlie_> Yes, in so much as I want it to be able to show that I designed a 'rugged' system, that survives the environment and can stay powered by solar 'indefinitely'. But at the same time, I do not want the 'mech eng' aspect of the long endurance to take over.
[13:33] <Charlie_> So if I said a week maybe.
[13:33] <adamgreig> you can demonstrate battery life on the ground
[13:33] <edmoore> qualtex balloon
[13:33] <edmoore> 10g flight computer
[13:33] <adamgreig> but yea, a qualtex balloon, easy
[13:33] <edmoore> try and get ssdv in 10g
[13:33] <edmoore> it'd be a first
[13:33] <edmoore> your name would go down in the annals of history
[13:34] <Charlie_> I suppose what I'm trying to do is show a rugged, lightweight design - without worrying _too_ much on the _how_ Im showing it :P
[13:34] <Charlie_> lol
[13:34] <Charlie_> Can you suggest any good qualtex balloons?
[13:34] <craag> http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html
[13:35] <Charlie_> battery life harder to show on the ground imo - as you have pesky clouds to worry about.
[13:35] <craag> Top one
[13:35] <adamgreig> meh, a desk lamp on a timer switch
[13:35] <Charlie_> yeah I guess...
[13:35] <Charlie_> thank craag
[13:36] <Charlie_> SO when it comes to the maths, is there a good source?
[13:36] <Charlie_> I saw a presentation from 3 years ago where a guy was developing a MATLAB calculator. Not seen anything since.
[13:36] <adamgreig> depending on how detailed you get it's mostly simple thermofluids
[13:36] <adamgreig> draw a large, clear, accurate diagram
[13:37] <adamgreig> issues come in knowing what the various mechanical properties are
[13:37] <Charlie_> yeah
[13:37] <adamgreig> it's all equilibrium at interest so becomes a statics problem
[13:37] <adamgreig> weight down, lift up
[13:37] <adamgreig> no drag even
[13:37] <adamgreig> for float altitude anyway
[13:38] <Charlie_> How good is polythene?
[13:38] <Charlie_> oh yeah, no drag good point
[13:38] <adamgreig> duration becomes a much harder question of gas migration and uv damage and stuff
[13:38] <Charlie_> yeah, cant do too much about that
[13:39] <adamgreig> well you could, e.g. tension a material sample, expose to a UV source, measure failure tension after various durations of exposure, that sort of thing
[13:39] <adamgreig> but it's not really in line with what you're proposing for the project :p
[13:39] <Charlie_> I thought about some of those lay flat tubings as a balloon? One company even does them up to 12m width.
[13:39] <Charlie_> yeah thats more mech eng
[13:39] <adamgreig> yea, perhaps even materials science
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[13:45] <edmoore> what kind of electronics do you do Charlie_ ?
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[13:46] <Charlie_> @ ed, just about anything apart from robotics and deathly serious programming
[13:46] <Charlie_> comms, power, signal, control are all cool
[13:47] <edmoore> ok
[13:47] <edmoore> so from an electronics pov there are (I think) some really fun instrumentation challenges in HAB
[13:48] <Charlie_> yeah
[13:50] <edmoore> measuring air temperature at 40km is actually quite hard
[13:51] <edmoore> measuring pressure accurately (to give you say 1m of resolution) all the way up is extremely channelnging
[13:52] <mattbrejza> i reckon a 10cm length of the thinnest platinum wire you can get (without snapping) could make a good temp sensor
[13:52] <mattbrejza> tungsten also i seem to remember might work when i looked at this
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[13:52] <edmoore> so long as you can keep the self heating right down
[13:53] <edmoore> you'd need a v low current and so a nice low noise way of measuring the resistence
[13:54] <mattbrejza> last time i tried with a rtd the all in one IC was a bit weird so the current had to be on for longer than id want
[13:54] <mattbrejza> was still like 0.4mA
[13:54] <edmoore> who uses an all-in-one IC :p
[13:55] <mattbrejza> it was neat at teh time
[13:55] <edmoore> also with tiny currents you'd really have to model (or manage) the thermoelectric effect from the copper/plat junction
[13:55] <mattbrejza> 8 single ended/differental input adc with variable gain
[13:55] <mattbrejza> and some current sources
[13:55] <edmoore> yeah i remember you showing me
[13:55] <edmoore> and i remember being snooty about it then too
[13:56] <mattbrejza> it was accurate enough in a stable environment, good resolution, low noise etc, but in the air too much self heating and up-down hystersis
[13:57] <tweetBot> @crispSV: #J43VHF APRS module is #arduino powered #hamr #hamradio #ukhas #amsat http://t.co/vlnn50qoJY
[13:59] <edmoore> instrumentation is a hard problem
[13:59] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03JACKAL3P - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=JACKAL3P
[14:00] <mattbrejza> i think the thin wire will be a considerable improvment over the 3mmx3mm thing i had last time
[14:04] <Charlie_> Sounds cool
[14:07] <Charlie_> I wonder if a mylar balloon manufacturer might make a bigger custom balloon.... Say 1m radius....
[14:07] <edmoore> i'm sure they would
[14:08] <edmoore> i'm sure you'd pay for it too
[14:09] <SpeedEvil> Probably cheap if you order a hundred thousand.
[14:09] <SpeedEvil> I'm in for 3.
[14:09] <Charlie_> yeah
[14:10] <craag> kickstarter it
[14:10] Action: craag ducks
[14:10] <SpeedEvil> Oooh!
[14:10] <SpeedEvil> $499 - 99 red baloons.
[14:10] <Charlie_> I wonder if they would lower the price if you had it transmit "buy your balloon from x" over commercial radio stations in each country it flew over... hmmm... ;)
[14:11] <Charlie_> lol
[14:11] <Charlie_> Thats a good point, I bet a few people would be interested in some bigger foil balloons.
[14:11] <edmoore> you can go and talk to raven if you want
[14:12] <edmoore> but like i say, i would shy away from DIY balloons
[14:12] <SpeedEvil> It depends why.
[14:12] <lz1dev> but hams will cry that you can't use aprs for commercial purposes :(
[14:12] <edmoore> i already think you've given the balloon question 10x too much thought than you want to for an EE masters
[14:12] <SpeedEvil> If you absolutely need a long-term floater, tehre is almost certainly no way round it
[14:12] <SpeedEvil> - that is - a non-cheap /DIY balloon
[14:12] <Charlie_> yeah
[14:13] <Charlie_> ed it is good to dream at least :D
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[14:13] <edmoore> sure. this is the right channel for spit-balling certainly
[14:14] <Charlie_> and then the next time I'm gonna put a telescope on it and then ... :D
[14:14] <SpeedEvil> Charlie_: Follw in NASAs footsteps? Drag it over cars nearly killing people?
[14:14] <Charlie_> LOL
[14:14] <SpeedEvil> http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2010/oct/HQ_10-269_Balloon_Mishap.html
[14:15] <Charlie_> when my first latex failed, it got to like 1km before falling. This was just after NASA had a rocket blow up on the launch pad. I enjoyed telling people I did better than NASA for a while B)
[14:15] <adamgreig> coxon kilometer
[14:15] <SpeedEvil> I was listening to the 'starstuff' ABC podcast.
[14:16] <adamgreig> ah excellent it's on the glossary https://ukhas.org.uk/general:glossary
[14:16] <SpeedEvil> And heard a description of the falcon 9 latest landing attempt.
[14:16] <Charlie_> lol at the nasa ballon
[14:16] <SpeedEvil> 'The rocket landed vertically, but too hard for re-use'
[14:16] <SpeedEvil> Technically correct. :)
[14:16] <Charlie_> LOL
[14:17] <Charlie_> you guys seen copenhagen suborbitals?
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> Yes.
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> They are very good at streaming video.
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[14:20] <Charlie_> turns out my uni has a physics society that launched a balloon
[14:21] <mattbrejza> notts?
[14:21] <Charlie_> surprised they managed to get a NOTAM as we are literally under a flight path
[14:21] <Charlie_> yeah
[14:21] <mattbrejza> oh that one...
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[14:21] <Charlie_> Hi sorry it kicked me
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> Charlie_ (80f3028d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.243.2.141) has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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[14:22] <Charlie_> yeah :/
[14:22] <adamgreig> (you didn't miss anything)
[14:23] <Charlie_> oh taht's alright then :D
[14:23] <craag> Charlie_: Did they get that one back in the end?
[14:23] <Charlie_> No idea, just found out they launched it now.
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[14:35] <Charlie_> I think they did https://scontent-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t31.0-8/10014103_666704666711742_8023429447584183301_o.jpg
[14:36] <Charlie_> Yep it was washed up on a beach in devon
[14:37] <craag> :)
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[15:41] <Charlie_> I wonder when we will next see JB1
[15:46] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03UBSEDS5 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=UBSEDS5
[15:46] <lz1dev> Charlie_: it's not a real flight, just generated data apperantly
[15:47] <Charlie_> oh :(
[15:47] <Charlie_> UBSEDS5 is real though?
[15:48] <lz1dev> no idea
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[15:48] <craag> ubseds is richardeoin I believe
[15:50] <craag> !flights
[15:50] <SpacenearUS> 03craag: Current flights: 03SP3OSJ 437.7MHz RTTY100/470/7n2 10(d9ee), 03JACKAL3P 10(18a6), 03SP9UOB - 144.250 MHz (434,500 where ham not allowed) 10(a1e1)
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[15:50] <craag> Looks like it's just a ground test
[15:50] <Charlie_> ah okay
[15:51] <richardeoin> I'll launch it in the next hour or so :-)
[15:51] <richardeoin> Need to finish soldering the antenna
[15:51] <UpuWork> Your reasoning is great
[15:51] <UpuWork> "since the weather is nice" :)
[15:51] <Charlie_> cool richard!
[15:51] <UpuWork> flight doc done ?
[15:51] <Charlie_> What sort of balloon is it?
[15:51] <richardeoin> time to go to #habhub
[15:52] <craag> summer pico season begins :)
[15:52] <richardeoin> It's supposed to be a superpressure balloon, but I think it has lots of micro leaks
[15:53] <Charlie_> oh awesome I was just thinking about doing one myself
[15:53] <Charlie_> Is it one you made yourself?
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[15:54] <richardeoin> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/EkWunyfa/irccloudcapture752158068.jpg
[15:54] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[15:55] <richardeoin> Yep. I need to let out a little He to get the free lift down
[15:55] <Charlie_> THat is awesome rich, where did you get the material from?
[15:56] <richardeoin> that film is from https://secure.beyondthenet.com/~balloon/pay/
[15:57] <richardeoin> customer service wasn't great but it turned up after 3-4 weeks
[15:57] <Charlie_> And how did you make the seams?
[15:57] <Charlie_> Iron?
[15:58] <Charlie_> Link doesnt seem to work. :\
[15:58] <richardeoin> yes, with tracing paper so it doesn't burn the surface layer
[15:59] <richardeoin> hmm, that page didn't used be broken
[15:59] <richardeoin> the main site is here http://balloonkits.com/
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[16:01] <Charlie_> Thanks
[16:01] <Charlie_> The balloon looks awesome
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[16:09] Nick change: number10_ -> number10
[16:11] Nick change: jarod- -> jarod
[16:13] <Charlie_> richardeoin, if it is not from too long ago, how much roughly does balloonkits charge for the mylar?
[16:15] <richardeoin> I bought the EVOH film the sell, was charged about £60 in total.
[16:16] <Charlie_> For how much? (width/length)
[16:24] <Geoff-G8DHE> richardeoin, Is UBSED5 alternating RTTY Contestia on the same channel 434.6 ?
[16:25] <Geoff-G8DHE> !flight ubeds5
[16:25] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE: Can't find a flight doc matching your query
[16:25] <Geoff-G8DHE> !flight ubseds5
[16:25] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE: Flight 10(9615): 03UBSEDS5 434.600 RTTY, CONTESTIA 32/1000 10(1 payload) - Launch date 03Today at 16:30 from 03Saint Werburgh's, Bristol, Bristol, City of Bristol, UK 10(51.47,-2.58)
[16:29] <richardeoin> Free lift for ubseds5 https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/faKTtXoi/irccloudcapture141244998.jpg
[16:30] <Charlie_> very nice
[16:30] <Charlie_> feeling confident richard?
[16:30] <adamgreig> i like your free lift measurement :)
[16:31] <richardeoin> I'm pretty confident it'll go upwards
[16:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> is it rtty /contestia alternating on 434.6 ?
[16:31] <richardeoin> not entirely sure how fast or for how long
[16:31] <richardeoin> You got it Geoff-G8DHE
[16:32] <Reb-SM3ULC> richardeoin: -3.3 g ? ;)
[16:32] <Geoff-G8DHE> but no RSID then ?
[16:32] <Charlie_> Did you use all your mylar for that balloon?
[16:32] <richardeoin> thanks adamgreig. It's sweetcorn btw
[16:32] <adamgreig> ah good yes
[16:32] <adamgreig> i find that works quite well but prefer beans myself
[16:33] <Charlie_> LOL
[16:33] <richardeoin> I can't remember exactly how much film they sent Charlie_
[16:33] <Reb-SM3ULC> richardeoin: floater or up/down?
[16:33] <richardeoin> iirc it was enough for a few balloons
[16:35] <Charlie_> okay nice
[16:39] <Charlie_> How do you set the altitude it will float at?
[16:39] <edmoore> maths
[16:40] <edmoore> calculate where it will become neutrally boyant for a given volume, payload mass and free lift
[16:41] <Charlie_> wikipedia here I come :)
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[16:42] <edmoore> not sure that'll help much?
[16:42] <edmoore> you can figure it out from first principles pretty easily
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[16:43] <Charlie_> okay
[16:46] <richardeoin> aaaand it's up
[16:48] <Charlie_> horay!
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[16:56] <Neil_M0CJM> Greed RTTY decode here on 434.599.2 MHz in Basingstoke
[16:58] <Neil_M0CJM> Looks like its set to fly directly over me :-)
[17:00] <richardeoin> it's got to do this boomerang move over bristol first though
[17:00] <richardeoin> the ascent rate is interesting though - I didn't mean for it to go up quite this fast
[17:02] <Neil_M0CJM> Lol yeah, if it lands near me will recover for you if I can :-)
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[17:04] <richardeoin> That would be great Neil_M0CJM
[17:05] <richardeoin> it may well burst or start descending at about 8 km
[17:08] <Charlie_> if it lands in nottingham I will get it :P
[17:09] <richardeoin> Ah I can see it above the launch site
[17:09] <richardeoin> It looks like a star, except the sky is blue
[17:11] <Charlie_> nice
[17:11] <Charlie_> I'd love to make my own balloon
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[17:12] <Charlie_> must be a good feeling inflating it
[17:13] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah something starting to appear in the wf
[17:14] <Laurenceb__> <richardeoin> custom envelope?
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[17:15] <Geoff-G8DHE> partial on contestia
[17:16] <G0wxi> !dial ubseds5
[17:16] <SpacenearUS> 03G0wxi: Latest dials for 03UBSEDS5 10(9615): 03434.599041 MHz, 434.599 MHz
[17:16] <richardeoin> yep Laurenceb__, it's the stuff from http://balloonkits.com/
[17:17] <Geoff-G8DHE> Green on contestia
[17:19] <richardeoin> Yay Geoff-G8DHE
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[17:19] <richardeoin> it should be doing RSID by the way
[17:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> yes it is
[17:20] <Laurenceb__> <richardeoin> did you pre stretch it?
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[17:21] <richardeoin> not on this one. I suspect it has plenty of micro leaks anyhow
[17:23] <Laurenceb__> ah
[17:23] <Laurenceb__> yeah Leo pre stretched on his last run of balloons
[17:23] <Laurenceb__> B-64+ iirc
[17:23] <Laurenceb__> 2.5PSI with a modified omron m2 blood pressure cuff in a warm room for 4 hours
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[17:23] <Laurenceb__> is your film transparent?
[17:24] <Charlie_> what does prestreching do?
[17:24] <richardeoin> no all the stuff from balloonkits is metalised :-(
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[17:24] <Laurenceb__> reduces stress concentrations
[17:24] <Laurenceb__> eeek
[17:24] <Laurenceb__> thats not going to fly for more than ~2 days
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[17:24] <Charlie_> watch it set a new record now lol
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[17:25] <Laurenceb__> Leo got consistently amazing performance once he used NaOH to remove the Alu and pre stretching to remove stress concentrations
[17:25] <Laurenceb__> oh, also non flap valves, he sealed the H2 in
[17:25] <Geoff-G8DHE> Contestia certainly gets thru interference! http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/2015_Flights/UBSED5_20150513/QRM_capture_201505131723.JPG
[17:25] <Laurenceb__> *no
[17:26] <Charlie_> Where to start when calculate the volume/amount of gas for a balloon? I presume payload weight and desired altitude?
[17:27] <Laurenceb__> taking off the Alu also saves some weight
[17:27] <Laurenceb__> a gram or two
[17:28] <Charlie_> Oh so he took it off himself?
[17:28] <Laurenceb__> yes
[17:29] <richardeoin> A few people have made a spreadsheet that attempts to calculate the gas volumes, float altitude etc
[17:29] <Laurenceb__> pretty easy with conc NaOH
[17:30] <richardeoin> one group has published theirs http://www.jupiterspacestation.org/rcmodeling/balloon.html
[17:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> Some info here https://ukhas.org.uk/projects:microballoons:data?s[]=pressure
[17:31] <Charlie_> thx richard, will investigate
[17:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> Leo put some of the B-xx data on the grapth at the bottom
[17:31] <Charlie_> And Geoff
[17:32] <Charlie_> Laurence, it was awkward enough having a canister of helium delivered to my halls, before I start ordering con NaOH LOL :D
[17:32] <Laurenceb__> lol if you at a uni cant you order it through uni
[17:32] <Laurenceb__> are you in uk?
[17:33] <Charlie_> Yep, notts
[17:33] <Laurenceb__> haha no way
[17:33] <Laurenceb__> I work on Jubilee campus
[17:33] <Laurenceb__> in fact im there now, I should go home lol
[17:33] <Charlie_> Probably couldnt get it through the uni as it is normally the technicians that order stuff (if the electronics department is anything to go by)
[17:34] <Charlie_> LOL laurence nice one :D
[17:34] <Laurenceb__> Sigma Aldridge ftw
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[17:35] <Charlie_> nice one
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[17:41] <Upu> !dial UBSEDS5
[17:41] <SpacenearUS> 03Upu: Latest dials for 03UBSEDS5 10(9615): 03434.5992 MHz, 434.5988 MHz, 434.598988 MHz, 434.34989 MHz, 434.59898 MHz, 434.5981 MHz, 434.599028 MHz, 434.59888 MHz
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[17:45] <Charlie_> whats the mass of the mylar film per m2?
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[17:45] <SpeedEvil> DEpends on the thickness.
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> It goes down to ~2.5um
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> At that, 2.5g/m^2, or so.
[17:46] <Charlie_> ok thanks
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> But four or five or so times more is probably plausible
[17:46] <Charlie_> bbl
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> the thin stuff is mostly unusable
[17:48] <Geoff-G8DHE> richardeoin, Having a longer delay after RSID would allow Rx to settle better at present after a freq. change
[17:50] <Reb-SM3ULC> What's the target-height for UBSED5?
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[17:53] <richardeoin> Ah okay Geoff-G8DHE. If I remember I just copied what dl-fldigi did
[17:54] <richardeoin> There is a bit of a preamble
[17:54] <richardeoin> Reb-SM3ULC: I'm guessing about 8km
[17:55] <Upu> RXID not working ?
[17:55] <Reb-SM3ULC> richardeoin: oki, great signal via suws. rxid seems to work every other
[17:55] Nick change: Steffann -> Steffanx
[17:56] <Geoff-G8DHE> No it works Upu, better the controlled Rx takes a little while to settle on the new frequency maybe 200ms+
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[17:57] <Upu> odd doesn't seem to be working here
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[17:57] <Reb-SM3ULC> richardeoin: you should get nice statistics on rtty vs contestia then?
[18:01] <edmoore> lovely evening
[18:01] <edmoore> tomorrow it is apparently 7C and heavy rain
[18:01] <edmoore> tedious
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[18:12] <Reb-SM3ULC> UBS sprung a leak?
[18:12] <Charlie_> So as youre flying balloons in civil airspace, how do you get permission?
[18:13] <Geoff-G8DHE> Either NOTAM if bigger than 2m or no problem if less than 2m
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> ^less than 2m, and 10000 balloons every square kilometer every 15 minutes.
[18:14] <Charlie_> yeah but surely the notam is for launch isnt it?
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> You don't need a NOTAM for very small balloons
[18:15] <Charlie_> woops
[18:15] <Charlie_> I was reading the altitude on the calculator in feet not meters LOL
[18:15] <Charlie_> yes sorry
[18:15] <Dread> SpeedEvil: how small should it be?
[18:15] <Charlie_> However, for theory's sake
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> Under 2m diameter at any time in flight
[18:15] <Charlie_> Say I had a 3m balloon
[18:16] <Charlie_> And it would fly at 30kft
[18:16] <SA6BSS> ballon+payload within 2m radius
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[18:16] <Dread> okay.
[18:16] <daveake> diameter
[18:16] <Charlie_> Would that be allowed?
[18:16] <Reb-SM3ULC> SA6BSS: gokvällen
[18:16] <SA6BSS> halloj
[18:16] <daveake> Charlie "a 3m balloon" doesn't mean anything
[18:16] <Dread> do i can try to send small baloon with some tracker without any permission or so
[18:17] <SA6BSS> in uk its ok anyway
[18:17] <daveake> The whole thing (balloon + string + tracker) has to fit within a 2m dia. sphere at all times throughout the flight
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[18:18] <SpeedEvil> Fun fact - I'm not convinced that those inflatable 'air sharks' aren't airships by the letter of the CAA rules.
[18:19] <Charlie_> Dave, I mean say the size of the balloon is 3m in diameter at 30kft where it floats.
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> Then it's not allowed.
[18:19] <daveake> yup
[18:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> then its bigger than a 2m sphere so a NOTAM is required
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> And you need to go to the full NOTAM/... process.
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> 2.01m and ...
[18:21] <mattbrejza> they are meant for inside use though?
[18:21] <Charlie_> Okay, understood
[18:21] <craag> Charlie_: It doesn't sounds logical I know... but that's rules for you ;)
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> mattbrejza: hmm. I don't actually recall it saying that the ANO doesn't apply indoors.
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> mattbrejza: but I'd need to re-read.
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> (and I can't be arsed)
[18:22] <mattbrejza> so you need a notam to fly a shark around your living room?
[18:22] <Charlie_> Oh the size limit makes sense, it just seems odd that you would need a notam for like 2 weeks the size of the country,
[18:22] <craag> richardeoin: What's the battery life on the tracker?
[18:22] <daveake> you don't
[18:22] <craag> It's looking like coming down not far from my work..
[18:23] <daveake> the notam is for the launch
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> mattbrejza: no, an airship pilots licence.
[18:23] <mattbrejza> oh right
[18:23] <mattbrejza> failed to read scroll back
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> mattbrejza: this was just skimming it - I was trying to find fun holes in the legislation. Annoyingly they don't properly define 'kite'
[18:23] <mattbrejza> lol
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> mattbrejza: But you can quite legally put on in-iine skates, strap a parachute to yourself, and then grab onto the towlines of a dozen R/C aircraft and tow yourself into the air with basically no regulations as long as the towlines are under 70m long.
[18:25] <SpeedEvil> -Towing from aircraft, and towing from ground vehicles and winches are strictly regulated.
[18:25] <Vaizki> anyone from here have Leo's GPSDO box?
[18:26] <Charlie_> understood dave, that was originally what I thought
[18:26] <mattbrejza> is one of your goals in life to come up with a wacky project that causes some loopholes to be closed?
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> mattbrejza: yes.
[18:26] <mattbrejza> cool
[18:26] <Charlie_> Arguably that would be awesome :D
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> mattbrejza: Similarly, you can take a ~10kg lift-off weight helicpter, and then take off, and winch up engines, more airframe, and a seat, and then a pilot, and go around in your 'unmanned small aircraft' with no rules.
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> - the class of aircraft is set at takeoff.
[18:27] <mattbrejza> lol
[18:27] <garymortimer> Watch out here comes my latest dumb question
[18:28] <Charlie_> Are there any regulations regarding the use of a radioisotope thermoelectric generate to power payloads? :P
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> Charlie_: VEry little is actually explicitly regulated.
[18:28] <garymortimer> Jackal3P the satellites and altitude are showing up in the wrong place and I don't know how to change that. Please feel free to tell me to RTFM and point me to that part of it
[18:29] <SpeedEvil> for balloons. It's either >2m and requires NOTAM - which requires you to accurately describe, and they can say yay or nay - or it's under 2m and there are almost no rules.
[18:29] <SpeedEvil> RTGs would be seperately regulated
[18:29] <garymortimer> on the map I mean of course
[18:30] <daveake> payload doc not matching actual telemetry ?
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[18:30] <craag> works here daveake
[18:30] <garymortimer> Yes I think thats right
[18:30] <richardeoin> craag: At least 8 hours, not tested it beyond that
[18:31] <craag> richardeoin: Hmm, so would have to head up this evening... will see where it ends up :)
[18:31] <garymortimer> so i need to correct that
[18:33] <garymortimer> oh flight on I did'nt notice that, most excellent pubs that way
[18:34] <garymortimer> Its heading for Downton!
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[18:35] <Charlie_> So does a super pressure balloon have to be tight at launch?
[18:36] <craag> Charlie_: Did you see the pic of UBSEDS?
[18:36] <Charlie_> that was at proper fill pressure? ok
[18:36] <craag> You only need enough helium to lift it
[18:37] <Charlie_> Why would one want to know the altitude at which it is full and the altitude at which it floats?
[18:37] <craag> So you can aim not to put it in weather or a flight corridor?
[18:38] <Charlie_> But isnt that determined by the float altitude?
[18:38] <Charlie_> Or is it a case of trying to get full and float as close as possible?
[18:38] <craag> Which is determined by the amount of expansion the gas can do inside the balloon.
[18:39] <craag> The more the gas has room to expand
[18:39] <craag> The higher it'll go before superpressuring
[18:40] <garymortimer> If that balloon keeps turning left there is a gliding club just up the way
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[18:41] <Charlie_> So you want full altitude to be close to float altitude, so that it floats before it gets so 'full' it pops?
[18:41] <craag> for superpressure: float=full
[18:42] <craag> a superpressure float is (anyone correct me if I'm wrong), when the balloon can't expand and so produces enough force inwards to counter the force outwards of the gas expansion, causing equilibrium.
[18:43] <edmoore> correct
[18:43] <Charlie_> I wonder why this calculator has two seperate columns, and not just a will float at this altitude box :|
[18:43] <craag> Nothing moves - so the balloon just stays at altitude.
[18:43] <Charlie_> understood
[18:43] <edmoore> which calculator do you have Charlie_ ?
[18:43] <Charlie_> http://www.jupiterspacestation.org/rcmodeling/balloon.html
[18:43] <Charlie_> at the bottom
[18:43] <craag> Until the balloon envelope can't take the force any more (due to UV degradation, etc) and fails, releasing the gas.
[18:44] <edmoore> my eyes
[18:45] <Charlie_> ikr :P
[18:45] <Charlie_> makes sense ed
[18:45] <craag> nano class: 100g - 1000g payload
[18:45] <daveake> lol
[18:45] <Charlie_> Why would removing aluminium from a mylar film help?
[18:45] <craag> lolmurica
[18:45] <edmoore> order of mag bigger than pico
[18:46] <daveake> true
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[18:46] <Charlie_> I'm aiming for 100g at about 25km
[18:47] <craag> That's going to be a massive mylar balloon
[18:47] <edmoore> yep
[18:48] <craag> (on the amateur scale)
[18:48] <Charlie_> 25m^3 this calculator is saying
[18:48] <craag> +envelope weight?
[18:48] <Charlie_> would float at 31km :/
[18:48] <Charlie_> I went for 10g/m^3
[18:48] <craag> ok
[18:49] <Charlie_> for a cylinder
[18:49] <Charlie_> not optimised cylinder, trying to keep within the sizes of sheets ive seen
[18:49] <Charlie_> like r=2h
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[18:51] <Charlie_> 10m3 would take me to 25km
[18:53] <craag> 100g is a lot of payload weight for something so weight-critical
[18:54] <craag> although less so as your balloon gets bigger admittedly
[18:54] <edmoore> and i'd be surprised if a volume of 10m^3 would get 100g to 25kg with a super-pressure envelope
[18:54] <edmoore> to 25km*
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[18:55] <edmoore> that's a sphere of radius 1.3m, which is not especially big
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[18:55] <Charlie_> is does seem quite small
[18:55] <Charlie_> Maybe the calculator isnt so reliable
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[18:56] <edmoore> i am very surprised you'd trust some random thing on a webpage
[18:57] <edmoore> by some people who don;t seem to have really flown anything but are talking about flying in venus with ms-paint graphics
[18:57] <edmoore> just work it out from scratch
[18:57] <craag> Yep, grab the gas density, do the calculations for the lift it'll give you, then calculate how the volume changes sea-level => 25km.
[18:58] <craag> UBSEDS5 gone, last string at 414m
[18:58] <Charlie_> lol it was suggested to me, but yeah they did strike me as crazy :P
[18:58] <edmoore> pick a value for mass/m^2 of your chosen film
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[19:00] <Charlie_> okay ed lets see
[19:01] <Charlie_> is that density at STP?
[19:02] <edmoore> which density?
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[19:03] <Charlie_> standard temperature and pressure
[19:03] <Charlie_> of the hydrogen
[19:04] <edmoore> i have no idea, i don't know what you're looking at
[19:04] <edmoore> hence my question
[19:04] <edmoore> i don't know what the 'that' is in: 'Charlie_> is that density at STP?'
[19:05] <Charlie_> sorry
[19:05] <Charlie_> "grab the gas density, do the calculations for the lift it'll give you, then calculate how the volume changes sea-level => 25km."
[19:06] <Charlie_> for the gas density, do I calculate it for the two altitudes, or just pick one?
[19:06] <edmoore> right
[19:06] <edmoore> so
[19:06] <edmoore> you can calculate an average density for your entire system
[19:07] <edmoore> payload, balloon, the gas inside the balloon
[19:07] <edmoore> it's the volume of that whole thing divided by the mass
[19:07] <edmoore> the volume of the balloon dominates so you can just go with that
[19:08] <edmoore> and divide it by the mass of the entire thing (payload, balloon envelope, gas in the balloon envelope)
[19:08] <edmoore> when that density value is equal to the density value of the surroundings, it's neutrally bouyant
[19:08] <Charlie_> okay
[19:08] <edmoore> to calculate the altitude that corresponds to that density: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/atmosmet.html
[19:09] <edmoore> once you've done that, you can then calculate what the differential pressure is between inside and outside the balloon at that altitude
[19:09] <edmoore> and see if you can engineer a balloon envelope to withstand that
[19:09] <Charlie_> rgr
[19:09] <edmoore> if so, you've got yourself a party
[19:10] <Charlie_> :)
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[19:25] <Vaizki> ok since there's a bit of "involved" people around.. is there a cheap but recommended clock buffer-amp-distributor around=
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[19:26] <Vaizki> I have a decent 10MHz reference inside one of my test equipment boxes and just want to distribute that to all my lesser endowed stuff
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[19:27] <Reb-SM3ULC> richardeoin: are you chasing your payload?
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[19:28] <Charlie_> Vaizki TI has a good range
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[19:29] <richardeoin> I'm not Reb-SM3ULC. It would be fun but it's not worth the cost
[19:29] <richardeoin> :-(
[19:29] <Vaizki> hmm I was more thinking of a ready made box with a bunch of BNC connectors
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[19:32] <edmoore> check that your clock inputs aren't high-z
[19:32] <edmoore> on your test equipment
[19:33] <edmoore> because if they are you can just daisychain them all together with BNC-Tees and 50-ohm terminate at the end of the chain
[19:33] <Reb-SM3ULC> richardeoin: right
[19:35] <Vaizki> edmoore: most of them are high-z but there's 2 iffy ones that behave differently (it seems) based on the mode they're in... so I'd like to have a splitter with 4 independent outputs
[19:35] <craag> richardeoin: I was hoping it'd land a little closer to soton.. bit far for me.
[19:35] <edmoore> Vaizki, fair enough
[19:36] <Vaizki> my assumption is that a 1-to-4 splitter with buffers for 10MHz distribution would not be an expensive thing to get
[19:37] <Vaizki> so far it seems like I'm not entirely correct :)
[19:37] <edmoore> yeah they all seem to be charging lab-equipment prices
[19:37] <edmoore> or else be ham diy projects
[19:38] <richardeoin> craag: The payload has my phone number on - I might be lucky as you were with your last launch!
[19:38] <craag> :)
[19:39] <Vaizki> edmoore: yea and if I paud 130 euros for a spectrum analyzer not sure if I want to pay 200 euros per port for a clock amp/buffer to feed it :)
[19:39] <edmoore> it's really just a video distribution amplifier tho right?
[19:39] <edmoore> right bandwidth
[19:39] <edmoore> tho it might not get a perfect square wave with 10MHz fundamental through
[19:40] <Vaizki> it would be easier if I could sync with 1MHz
[19:40] <edmoore> you can swap the 75ohm resistors
[19:40] <Vaizki> anyway. those things are unnecessarily expensive.
[19:44] <Vaizki> someone should just take a atmega328p and silabs 5351 and lay them out with bnc connectors in & out
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[20:06] <richardeoin> Upu: Re rxid earlier - it seems that our rxid works well with good SNR, but stops working way, way before the theoretical limit
[20:07] <richardeoin> the si4060 is using ~7.8Hz increments, while the tone spacing for rsid should be 10.677Hz. not ideal!
[20:09] <Upu> ah ok
[20:09] <Upu> it didn't work for me
[20:09] <Upu> had to have 2 dl-fldigis open :)
[20:09] <Upu> contestia working well as ever
[20:10] <craag> Yeah I don't think I missed a single contestia string on the websdr
[20:10] <richardeoin> that's great
[20:10] <richardeoin> there was no rsid on the rtty transmission though, so you would always need 2 dl-fldigis?
[20:11] <Upu> oh
[20:11] <Upu> you can tell RSID 50 RTTY is coming and it will reconfig ?
[20:12] <richardeoin> ah well yes you can do that :-)
[20:13] <richardeoin> I left my station unattended for the first bit of the flight and it stuck with the contestia quite nicely
[20:15] <Reb-SM3ULC> i also tried dual fl-digis to compare
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[20:30] <fsphil> there's only a small subset of rtty modes supported by rsid
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[20:51] <Laurenceb_> ah UBSEDS5 popped
[20:51] <Laurenceb_> pre stretch required
[20:52] <richardeoin> do you think that it popped Laurenceb_? I would have expected the descent rate to be much faster
[20:53] <Laurenceb_> looks typical of a pop
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[20:54] <Laurenceb_> probably a small failure around a seam due to stress concentration
[20:54] <Laurenceb_> Leo saw lots of similar failures, took ages ot work out what it was
[20:54] <Laurenceb_> its impossible to replicate at room temperature
[20:54] <SpeedEvil> Is this because at room temperature it stretches, but at below the transition temperature, it just snaps?
[20:54] <Laurenceb_> the envelope becomes more brittle as it cools
[20:54] <Laurenceb_> yes
[20:54] <SpeedEvil> ass transision temeprature
[20:55] <SpeedEvil> gl
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[21:04] <Laurenceb_> buy yourself an Omron M2
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[21:10] <richardeoin> argos looks like the place to go http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/2329019.htm
[21:10] Nick change: nigelvh_ -> nigelvh
[21:11] <richardeoin> I do like it when things needed for habbing can be bought in argos
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[21:15] <richardeoin> Not sure if my envelope will withstand 2.5 psi though Laurenceb_
[21:16] <richardeoin> where's si bot when you need it? That's 2.5 psi = ~17000 Pa
[21:19] <Charlie_> What does a prestretch do that just having more material won't?
[21:22] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Scroll back to 21:51 and see the explanation
[21:27] <Charlie_> But how would a prestrech change the temp vs brittleness?
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[21:32] <Ian_> It's like steel castings are baked so that the stress is allowed to equalise throughout the work piece.
[21:35] <Ian_> Think of it as stretching your ligaments before and after an exercise session to save muscles knotting up a bit.
[21:36] <Charlie_> ah gotcha
[21:36] <Charlie_> I guess I'll be doing some experiments this summer :D
[21:36] <Charlie_> If I can get 100g to 25km that would be awesome
[21:37] <craag> Charlie_: Have you seen the conference in august?
[21:37] <Ian_> I don't suppose that you will get lucky on the first try, but you will get the direction and soon develop a technique. It took Leo 66 attempts to get his ducks just as he wanted them.
[21:37] <Charlie_> yep craag, should be going
[21:37] <craag> :)
[21:38] <Charlie_> Yes, I did send Leo an email a few days ago.
[21:38] <Charlie_> I do intend to try and document my efforts though.
[21:39] <Ian_> I believe that he has settled down to some real work . . . bread and butter on the table etc.
[21:40] <Charlie_> ah nice
[21:40] <tweetBot> @crispSV: #J43VHF #aprs iGate station during AEOLUS-2WAY HAB flight #ukhas #hamr #hamradio #amsat http://t.co/QsYje24V2U
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> well Leo did the hard stuff so we dont have to :D
[21:45] <Laurenceb_> he went through many revisions of his technique, but its telling that B-63, B-64, and 66 were all the same design
[21:46] <Laurenceb_> iirc B-65 was an experiment that was identical but no pre stretch, and it burst very rapidly
[21:47] <Ian_> I suspect that the way to elicit details from Leo is probably to do your research and then share it with him. I reckon that he would give you pointers when he sees that you are putting in the effort.
[21:47] <DL7AD> evning
[21:47] <Ian_> Evening Sven
[21:47] <DL7AD> could someone add an aprs igating entry for tomorrow? (airplane symbol) DL7AD-11
[21:47] <DL7AD> hi Ian_
[21:48] <Charlie_> Rgr that Ian
[21:54] <Laurenceb_> there were a few important lessons from Leo
[21:55] <Laurenceb_> 1) you need to fly above 11km to avoid weather
[21:55] <Laurenceb_> 2) qualatex valves leak, limiting you to 10 days flight max
[21:56] <Laurenceb_> 3) you need to remove the Alu to be sure to fly more than a few days - disintergrating alu causes very strong heating
[21:56] <Charlie_> Yeah, point 1 is matched with try to launch with no clouds I suppose?
[21:56] <Laurenceb_> 4) you need to pre stretch to avoid ~70% risk of burst at float
[21:56] <Charlie_> The alu one is very interesting
[21:56] <Laurenceb_> yes, you need to avoid clouds during launch
[21:56] <Laurenceb_> Leo also check the relative humidity
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[21:57] <Laurenceb_> *checked
[21:57] <Charlie_> Could you just heat seal the tab on a qualatex balloon?
[21:57] <DL7AD> Laurenceb_: and how do you get rid of the aluminium?
[21:57] <Laurenceb_> NaOH
[21:57] <DL7AD> eh.... okay
[21:57] <Laurenceb_> Charlie_: yes
[21:58] <Charlie_> that would give off quite a fizz
[21:59] <Laurenceb_> if you follow all those steps carefully you are pretty much guarenteed to fly for months or longer
[21:59] <Laurenceb_> Leo seemed to be limited by battery lifetime, not the envelope
[22:00] <Charlie_> I gotta do the maths to figure out the size of balloon I need too
[22:00] <Charlie_> Yes, I was looking into some new battery technologies
[22:01] <Charlie_> I wonder if it would even be possible to use a super cap or something
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> seems unlikely
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> just go for solar power only
[22:02] <Charlie_> So no energy storage for night?
[22:03] <DL7AD> Laurenceb_: okay never heared that. im thinking about doing that, will get a mess....
[22:03] <Laurenceb_> theoretically with H2 and Leo size envelope with EVOH multilayer film, flight time is 12 to 15 years
[22:04] <Laurenceb_> UV will destroy the envelope after a few years, but there are UV treatments for glasses on the market...
[22:05] <Charlie_> Interesting
[22:05] <Charlie_> I wonder how scaleable the designs are
[22:05] <Charlie_> Ie, 10g -> 100g loads
[22:06] <Charlie_> at x altitude
[22:06] <Laurenceb_> yeah, it gets tricky once you need multiple intersecting seams
[22:06] <Charlie_> I was looking at lay flat package tubes as an option
[22:06] <Laurenceb_> also you probably ideally want to float at ~15km, below the ozone but above extreme high altitude weather that sometimes occurs at ~12km
[22:07] <Charlie_> isnt the ozone 20 to 30km?
[22:07] <Charlie_> Avoid the S pole too ;)
[22:08] <Laurenceb_> heh
[22:08] <Laurenceb_> only reason Leo no longer flies is that he didnt feel motivated to work on >6month flights
[22:09] <Charlie_> that would be like my dream LoL
[22:09] <Charlie_> I have been playing with SSTV
[22:10] <Charlie_> How would Polythene be as a envelope?
[22:10] <Laurenceb_> its practically like a sieve to gas :-/
[22:10] <Charlie_> LoL okay
[22:10] <Laurenceb_> >10^4 times worse
[22:10] <Charlie_> Do you make balloons too?
[22:11] <Laurenceb_> I've helped Leo out, but havent done full envelope fabrication from end to end
[22:12] <Charlie_> Do you know where Leo got his balloon material from?
[22:13] <Laurenceb_> "someone on ebay"
[22:13] <Charlie_> LoL
[22:13] <Charlie_> And it was just mylar?
[22:13] <Laurenceb_> no, it was pretty specialist
[22:14] <Charlie_> ah ok :?
[22:14] <Laurenceb_> http://www.polynova.com/plastic-film-and-roll-stock/coex-film-products.html
[22:14] <Laurenceb_> something like one of those
[22:16] <Charlie_> LoL, I wish that meant something to me :)
[22:16] <Charlie_> bookmarked, anyhow
[22:18] <Laurenceb_> omg http://tech.slashdot.org/story/15/05/13/1647212/new-device-could-greatly-improve-speech-and-image-recognition
[22:18] <Laurenceb_> its the turboencabulator
[22:18] <Charlie_> LOL
[22:18] <Laurenceb_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLDgQg6bq7o
[22:19] <Charlie_> Yes, how did people live before they were invented?
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[22:22] <Charlie_> what surprises me is how few companies will simply sell a roll of material
[22:22] <Laurenceb_> indeed, it is rather annoying
[22:26] <Charlie_> I have sent an email to a manufacturer of the foil ballons you get from street vendors, asking about the materials they use.
[22:26] <Charlie_> Do you think they will be of any use?
[22:26] <Laurenceb_> maybe, yeah
[22:26] <Charlie_> Of course, I could strip the Al from them with the NaHO
[22:28] <Charlie_> Would you like to see a test card for a SSTV transmitter I have been making for a balloon?
[22:28] <Laurenceb_> I dont have SSDV reception setup...
[22:29] <Charlie_> I have put it in a youtube video
[22:29] <Laurenceb_> as long as its not goatse
[22:29] <Charlie_> LOL Okay :D
[22:29] <Charlie_> ROFL
[22:29] <Charlie_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LnLj1ePViA
[22:30] <Laurenceb_> this is the internet, you never know what to expect
[22:30] <Charlie_> Not the most amazing thing ever, but not bad for an evenings work with a pic
[22:30] <Charlie_> Very true that
[22:30] <Laurenceb_> oh analogue?
[22:30] <Ian_> What SSTV format is it using?
[22:30] <Laurenceb_> lorf university of nottingham
[22:31] <Laurenceb_> they dont award A grades :P
[22:31] <Charlie_> Scottie 1
[22:31] <Ian_> Thanks
[22:31] <Charlie_> lol, test card A :P
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[22:32] <Laurenceb_> are you an EE eng student?
[22:33] <Charlie_> yep
[22:33] <Charlie_> 2nd year
[22:34] <Laurenceb_> ah cool, I might PM you tomorrow if im on campus
[22:34] <Laurenceb_> I work for a spin out developing medical devices
[22:35] <Charlie_> oh cool
[22:35] <Charlie_> Busy revising for exams atm
[22:35] <Laurenceb_> good luck
[22:35] <gonzo_nb> revising?! what are students coming to?
[22:35] Action: Laurenceb_ spent all day at a "team building exercise" :-/
[22:36] <Charlie_> lol
[22:36] <Laurenceb_> felt time I was in live action Brass Eye, we had to tie a giant shoelace
[22:36] <Charlie_> just need to pass this maths module and that will be last ever maths I have to do
[22:36] <Charlie_> oh gosh
[22:36] <Laurenceb_> whilst a man shouted "GO ON, TIE IT"
[22:36] <Charlie_> ikr gonzo :D
[22:36] <Laurenceb_> beyond parody
[22:37] <gonzo_nb> no more vector algebra!
[22:37] <Charlie_> how did you know? :P
[22:37] <Laurenceb_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vkjc3a38lY
[22:37] <gonzo_nb> been there, flunked that
[22:38] <Charlie_> Reminds me of Colchester
[22:39] <Charlie_> But yes, I hope a long endurance mission will be a suitable final year project
[22:39] <Laurenceb_> haha
[22:40] <Laurenceb_> by the standards of most projects, a 555 timer and led would be an achievement
[22:40] <gonzo_nb> keep the tracker simple, analyse everything to the nth degree and document it well
[22:40] <richardeoin> Also looking forward to the last ever maths exam Charlie_! Mine's next tuesday
[22:40] <Laurenceb_> I've seen some pretty dismal stuff
[22:41] <Charlie_> Indeed Laurence, it was interesting to see the phd students in the lab's reaction to my idea. They were impressed someone actually wanted to do a 'proper' project
[22:41] <Charlie_> Yep gonzo KISS
[22:41] <Charlie_> Keep It Simple, Stupid :P
[22:41] <Charlie_> Best of luck Richard!
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[22:42] <Charlie_> I've got electronics on next thursday, followed by maths on friday, then the Wednesday after is telecomms
[22:42] <gonzo_nb> my final project was an inductine loop audio system. Worked so wekk
[22:42] <gonzo_nb> well they built them and installed them in all the lecturt theatres
[22:42] <Laurenceb_> have you met a John Crowe... ?
[22:43] <Charlie_> nice gonzo
[22:43] <Charlie_> I have not met him Laurence
[22:43] <gonzo_nb> had the receivers as first year construction projects, for years, rather than get them produced. tight sods
[22:43] <Charlie_> Wrong department I guess.
[22:43] <Laurenceb_> ah, my former PhD supervisor :P
[22:43] <Charlie_> oh nice
[22:44] <Laurenceb_> he lectures medical devices iirc
[22:44] <Laurenceb_> but I dont keep up to date
[22:44] <Charlie_> Well at least that is a decent project for first years, unlike some op amp circuit...
[22:44] <Charlie_> laurence, seems he still does
[22:45] <Charlie_> Do you not come across a wide range of films in your work Laurence?
[22:45] <Charlie_> Could the biomedical department not ship in some large rolls of film for.... reasons.... :P
[22:46] <Laurenceb_> yes, but I let Leo have them all :D
[22:46] <Charlie_> LoL
[22:46] <Laurenceb_> I mainly work with polyurethane products, not very useful for balloons
[22:46] <Charlie_> Ah right
[22:47] <Laurenceb_> medical sensors need high water permeability or the glue goes sticky after just a few hours
[22:47] <Charlie_> I think it would be awesome one day to have repeaters on balloons
[22:47] <gonzo_nb> problem with medical electronics is, you will always end up with an embarasing bit of kit
[22:47] <Charlie_> I dont mean to be rude but the medical electronics never really appealed to me too much
[22:48] <Charlie_> I actually think the materials side is interesting
[22:48] <Charlie_> Like how they make stitches that dissolves, and tubes for keeping vessels open
[22:49] <gonzo_nb> (I once designed a tempreature meter for body core measurements. Later Got sent the REAL thermistor, in it's medical packaging....)
[22:49] <Laurenceb_> Nottingham is ideally set up with the QMC, I'm currently working on several joint research projects with the NHS and medical school
[22:49] <Charlie_> cool
[22:50] <Laurenceb_> gonzo_nb: I'm guessing the real one was ten times larger due to safety requirements etc?
[22:50] <Laurenceb_> medical devices can be a massive box ticking exercise, but theres still opportunities for interesting work
[22:51] <gonzo_nb> it wasn't the size, it was where it was designed to go
[22:52] <Laurenceb_> oh....
[22:52] <Charlie_> Shame Leo didnt document his work more fully. (or at least publish). :(
[22:52] <gonzo_nb> anything involving safety of life is satisfying, as the usual bodgery of , near enough, it seems to work, etc is not acceptable
[22:53] <Laurenceb_> indeed
[22:53] <Laurenceb_> I'm sort of tempted to go into high reliability embedded work
[22:53] <Charlie_> One of the things I love about research is it traceability... Found a paper from 1981 on a computer program to predict balloon parameters by NOAA... Could still get that program if I wanted to,
[22:53] <Charlie_> What for pacemakers and such>?
[22:53] <Laurenceb_> you should read about the GHOST program
[22:54] <Charlie_> GHOST?
[22:54] <Laurenceb_> automotive and aerospace
[22:54] <Laurenceb_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_horizontal_sounding_technique
[22:55] <Charlie_> Oh how cool
[22:56] <Charlie_> Say, do you think there might be anyone in the uni who would know where to get large sheets of suitable material from?
[22:57] <Laurenceb_> seems a bit unlikely
[22:57] <Laurenceb_> I cant think of anyone who would be working on similar stuff, might be worth asking in L2
[22:58] <gonzo_nb> ah, so that is why leo is not flying. It's really that he can't wat 2 years to break that record!
[22:58] <Charlie_> LOL
[22:58] <Charlie_> L2?
[22:58] <Laurenceb_> mech eng
[22:58] <Charlie_> ok
[22:58] Action: Laurenceb_ zzz
[22:58] <Laurenceb_> cya
[22:59] <gonzo_nb> ditto
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[22:59] <Charlie_> godnight
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[23:04] <Charlie_> well that was interesting
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[00:00] --- Thu May 14 2015