highaltitude.log.20150507

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[06:51] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03S59ABL-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=S59ABL-11
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[08:20] <infaddict> Morning all
[08:27] <edmoore> morning infaddict
[08:33] <Vaizki> morgen
[08:37] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BERKOHAB - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=BERKOHAB
[08:38] <infaddict> Looking to buy a parachute soon. My final payload (except nylon strings) weighs 653g. I've rounded to 700g to allow for strings and left over balloon weight. Am I right to target around 5m/s descent speed?
[08:38] <infaddict> If so calcs reckon a 30" Spherachute or a 3' Rocketman are about right
[08:39] <infaddict> The Spherachute is cheaper and lighter
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[08:45] <craag> 5m/s descent is good
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[08:46] <adamgreig> spherachutes are good
[08:47] <Vaizki> [11:45] <craag> 5m/s descent is good
[08:47] <Vaizki> pretty sure you missed that :)
[08:48] <edmoore> how is a 30" spherchute defined?
[08:49] <infaddict> thx Vaizki, machine crashed ;-(
[08:49] <edmoore> is that 30" diameter of the mouth when inflated?
[08:49] <infaddict> edmoore: good question, site doesnt say http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Parachutes.html
[08:50] <infaddict> i'll search for a spherachute spec
[08:50] <infaddict> thx craag
[08:50] <edmoore> so basically i make the landing velocity a bit higher
[08:50] <edmoore> 6.2m/s at Cd=0.65, 5.8m/s at Cd=0.75
[08:51] <edmoore> those numbers are still probably alright
[08:51] <infaddict> sry what is Cd?
[08:51] <edmoore> drag coefficient of the parachute
[08:51] <infaddict> ok thx
[08:52] <edmoore> you want parachutes 101 in 5 mins? I can give it if you want as my morning coffee still hasn't arrived
[08:52] <edmoore> so i can't properly start work yet
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[08:52] <infaddict> hehe sure, i'm supposed to be working but skiving - lemme grab coffee - kettle boiled so 1 min ;-)
[08:52] <edmoore> dandy
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[08:54] <infaddict> ok ready when you are edmoore
[08:54] <edmoore> okey dokey
[08:55] <edmoore> so parachutes are a fun subject that some people devote their careers too, and if you're landing bombs down chimneys or rovers on other planets then you spend ages worrying about characterising exactly how they open at different mach numbers and so on.... we don't need any of that for the majority of hab purposes
[08:56] <edmoore> we can get all the info we need just with the drag equation
[08:56] <edmoore> the drag equation, i.e. the force from aerodyanmic resistence, is:
[08:56] <infaddict> ok - i should mention my experience is limited to dropping Action Man off the landing stairs aged 7
[08:57] <edmoore> Drag = 0.5 * air_density * velocity^2 * Cd * frontal_area
[08:57] <edmoore> we can nicely split that equation into two halves to understand it
[08:58] <edmoore> the first half is the 0.5*density*velocity^2
[08:59] <edmoore> this term is called dynamic pressure, and it says that the pressure acting on you depends on the density of the medium you're moving through (thinking running in a swimming pool vs running in the air), and the speed at which you're moving through it
[08:59] <edmoore> infact the square of the speed at which you're moving through it - so if you go twice as fast you get four times the pressure
[09:01] <infaddict> ok kinda makes sense so far
[09:01] <Vaizki> https://twitter.com/airlivenet/status/596229296806592512
[09:01] <edmoore> to convince yourself that it's a pressure, we can look at the units - 0.5 has no units, density has units kg/m^3, velocity squared as units m^2/s
[09:01] <Vaizki> high altitude visitors for you guys
[09:01] <edmoore> so if you multiply kg/m^3 with m^2/s^s you get kg/ms^2
[09:02] <edmoore> that's a pressure tho i know it's a clunky way of thinking about a pressure
[09:02] <edmoore> anyway, the second half of the equation is Cd*A
[09:03] <edmoore> A, frontal area, is fairly self explanatory
[09:03] <edmoore> it's the area that is slamming into air
[09:03] <edmoore> bigger area = more drag
[09:03] <edmoore> Cd is perhaps the new one - drag coefficient
[09:03] <edmoore> that is basically a number that says how aerodynamic the shape is
[09:03] <edmoore> so...
[09:03] <edmoore> imagine a japanese bullet train and a truck
[09:03] <edmoore> if you look at both head-on, they have about the same front area
[09:04] <edmoore> but we say that a bullet train is much more 'aerodynamic' than the truck
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[09:04] <edmoore> that's because it's shape disturbs the air much less
[09:04] <edmoore> so Cd - the drag coefficient - is the number we use to describe how aerodynamic the shape is
[09:05] <edmoore> it's usually between 0 and 1 for most things
[09:05] <infaddict> ok great. i notice the chute calculator gives me Cd * area value.
[09:05] <edmoore> yeah
[09:05] <edmoore> so for a parachute the typical Cd value might be 0.65-0.75
[09:05] <edmoore> if it's higher they're lying
[09:05] <infaddict> is that plain Cd or Cd*A
[09:05] <edmoore> some people quote their chutes as having Cd = 2.2 - they're lying or don't understand chutes, i can come back to that later
[09:06] <edmoore> Cd
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[09:06] <infaddict> ok
[09:06] <edmoore> ok so
[09:06] <edmoore> that's the drag equation
[09:06] <Vaizki> Cd is between 0 and 1
[09:06] <edmoore> yes
[09:06] <edmoore> usually
[09:06] <edmoore> so a parachute is in equilibrium when it's falling
[09:07] <edmoore> it's not accelerating within the air, it's balanced - your weight downwards is equal to your drag upwards, so you fall at a constant speed
[09:07] <edmoore> so we can substitute weight (mass*gravity) for drag in the above equation
[09:07] <edmoore> so we get
[09:07] <edmoore> mg = 0.5*density*v^2*Cd*A
[09:07] <Vaizki> (except air gets denser the lower you go)
[09:08] <edmoore> if you want to calculate you landing velocity, you need to know the air density at landing (which we just say is about 1.22 kg/m^3 at sea level)
[09:08] <edmoore> and then rearrange that equation for velocity
[09:08] <edmoore> so you get
[09:08] <edmoore> v = sqrt((2*m*g)/(density*Cd*A))
[09:09] <edmoore> g = 9.81 at the earth's surface
[09:09] <edmoore> m = 0.7 in your case
[09:09] <edmoore> etc etc
[09:09] <infaddict> hold on let me read this part 10 times
[09:09] <Vaizki> at this point I usually stop solving and just plot it out in excel to see my options :)
[09:09] <edmoore> lol
[09:09] <edmoore> In [16]: def v(m,a,cd): return ((2 * m * 9.81) / (1.22 * cd * a))**0.5
[09:09] <edmoore> In [17]: v(0.7, 0.45, 0.65)
[09:09] <edmoore> Out[17]: 6.203769752537311
[09:10] <edmoore> so i just did that in python, same as the equation above
[09:10] <Vaizki> wait python supports **0.5?
[09:10] <edmoore> infaddict, it's worth understanding this part so ask lots of questions
[09:10] <edmoore> Vaizki, yes
[09:10] <edmoore> saved me importing math
[09:10] <edmoore> i'm lazy
[09:10] <Vaizki> hmm nice, didn't know that
[09:11] <edmoore> sorry yes to disambiguate infaddict, x^0.5 == sqrt(x) == x**0.5 (the latter is python syntax for powers)
[09:13] <infaddict> just writing this down and doing some manual algebra to understand it
[09:15] <edmoore> sure
[09:15] <edmoore> i might see if i can do a 5-10 min lightning talk at the conference on parachutes
[09:16] <edmoore> this stuff (but with diagrams so it's much easier to follow) and why some glide and some don't, and why Cd values above 0.8 are a lie (these two things are related)
[09:18] <infaddict> where did a=0.45 come from?
[09:18] <edmoore> 30 inches
[09:18] <edmoore> = 0.76m
[09:19] <edmoore> radius = pi*r^2
[09:19] <edmoore> r= 0.76/2
[09:19] <edmoore> area = pi*0.38^2
[09:19] <infaddict> so a is expressed in m^2 right?
[09:19] <edmoore> sorry i said radius = pi*r^2, i meant area
[09:19] <edmoore> yes
[09:19] <edmoore> so with the drag equation you should eng up with a force
[09:19] <edmoore> sorry i didn't say that
[09:20] <edmoore> kg/ms^2 * m^2 = kg m/s^2
[09:20] <edmoore> which is the unit of the Newton (force!)
[09:20] <edmoore> Cd has no units
[09:20] <edmoore> it's basically correcting the real area to a sort of 'characteristic area' that that accounts for the shape
[09:21] <edmoore> http://exploration.grc.nasa.gov/education/rocket/Images/shaped.gif
[09:21] <infaddict> yay i did it manually and got v=6.212 (rounding errors)
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[09:22] <edmoore> nice!
[09:23] <edmoore> so are you more-or-less happy with the drag equation and how we use that to calc landing velocity?
[09:23] <infaddict> yep i think so. taken lots of annotated notes ;-)
[09:23] <edmoore> lol
[09:23] <edmoore> i'll try and give this as a talk at conf
[09:23] <infaddict> can i fly a rocket now?
[09:23] <infaddict> ;-)
[09:23] <edmoore> yep!
[09:24] <infaddict> so using that equation and target velocity i can work out right chute (Cd and a)
[09:24] <edmoore> yep
[09:24] <infaddict> what are thoughts on target velocity then? 5? 6?
[09:24] <edmoore> either is fine
[09:24] <edmoore> really
[09:25] <edmoore> go for 5
[09:25] <edmoore> don't get too self-flaggelating if you can't quite
[09:25] <edmoore> if one chute is 6 and one is 3, go for the 6
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[09:25] <LunarWork> hello
[09:25] <craag> Morning LunarWork
[09:26] <infaddict> ok so the 30" spherachute comes out around 4.99m/s and weighs 42g @ £29.95. the 3' rocketman comes out around 4.65 m/s and weighs 85g @ £39.95.
[09:26] <edmoore> spherachute it looks like
[09:26] <infaddict> yep i agree!
[09:26] <Vaizki> 6m/s vs 5m/s is a 45% increase in kinetic energy but unlikely to kill anyone
[09:27] <edmoore> I'll be honest, 5 is a number someone like me pulled out of my bum in 2006 when someone asked what a good landing velocity was
[09:27] <Vaizki> hehe
[09:27] <infaddict> ha!
[09:28] <Vaizki> well it's been empirically proven to work
[09:28] <edmoore> yep
[09:28] <edmoore> i think we just went with something that 'looked alright' in the couple of flights we did before that
[09:28] <infaddict> ok so now i add 653g payload + 42g chute + cord = 700g ish. Now to choose a balloon for 700g ;-)
[09:29] <edmoore> 1.6kg
[09:29] <edmoore> classic
[09:29] <infaddict> Its a up and down photo/video flight, max altitude
[09:30] <garymortimer> morning all, waiting to watch the Berkohab and have no pub recommendations for that side of the UK as of course like Wales it is to be avoided. I do have a video warning though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONGVHbqFUBs
[09:30] <Vaizki> so how much of that 1.6kg is going to remain after burst?
[09:31] <infaddict> mmm, guessing that could mean i need bigger chute, even if 100-200g left
[09:32] <Vaizki> I don't know which is why I'm asking :)
[09:32] <infaddict> guess its not a science, but maybe guys have some real examples of what was left
[09:33] <infaddict> also any preference on balloon make: Hwoyee, Totex, Pawan
[09:33] <Vaizki> I'm guessing very little is left behind
[09:34] <infaddict> Hwoyee and Pawan both do 1600g balloons. Similar price £80 and £90 respectively. Hwoyee claims a large burst diameter of 10m vs 9.5m
[09:34] <craag> infaddict: That's about the sum of it, so Hwoyee should give you a higher burst altitude for the same amount of gas.
[09:35] <craag> Which would you like? ;)
[09:35] <infaddict> higher higher!
[09:35] <Vaizki> or they might have pulled their number out of a different hat? :)
[09:35] <craag> Good choice.
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[09:35] <edmoore> go howyee
[09:36] <infaddict> ok i'll go for a 1600g Hwoyee. Just need to decide how much balloon weight might be left in case I want a slightly larger chute. Any thoughts edmoore or craag?
[09:36] <edmoore> the remants of the balloon can have a similar ballistic coefficient to the parachute system often, so they sort of cancel their effect out
[09:36] <Vaizki> ah right, like a streamer
[09:36] <edmoore> ballistic coefficient = m/CdA
[09:36] <edmoore> yeah
[09:37] <edmoore> so i don;t worry too much about its effect on descent rate
[09:37] <infaddict> ok cool, i'll stick with the 30" chute then
[09:37] <infaddict> Right thanks very much for the help as usual. Off to do some HAB shopping ;-)
[09:37] <edmoore> have fun
[09:38] <infaddict> edmoore: i would find this sort of stuff v useful at the conference
[09:38] <infaddict> just basics of ascent/descent etc
[09:38] <Vaizki> have you guys tried to inflate a 10 meter balloon to bursting on the ground.. with just air..
[09:38] <edmoore> yes
[09:38] <edmoore> well not 10m
[09:38] <edmoore> but something hab sized
[09:38] <Vaizki> did it make a sound? :D
[09:38] <edmoore> don;t remmeber what it was exactly
[09:38] <edmoore> yeeah a bit of a sound but not a huge one
[09:38] <edmoore> the delta-pressure is not enormous at burst
[09:38] <Vaizki> right
[09:38] <edmoore> because the latex draws and gets really very thin
[09:38] <edmoore> you can almost see through it
[09:39] <Vaizki> probably been here but.. :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDa83rHOqak
[09:40] <gonzo_> I inflated one of the 100g ones, to measure the pressure, with thoughts of makinbg a relief valve to ensure it didn't exceed the 2mtr rule
[09:41] <edmoore> that's a nice thought
[09:41] <gonzo_> but the pressure was in the noise of the measuring instrument
[09:41] <adamgreig> it's almost spookily low noise/energy
[09:41] <adamgreig> it just kind of fell apart
[09:42] <gonzo_> i expect the pressure would go up when you reach the elastic limit. But for a balloon still in the stretchy phase (jargon word there)
[09:42] <gonzo_> it was quite low
[09:42] Action: infaddict has ordered a chute and balloon! Finally feels like I might launch something ;-)
[09:43] <Vaizki> credit card debt?
[09:44] <infaddict> The magic PayPal money tree.
[09:44] <gonzo_> and making laccurate and reliable low pressure relief valves, in the shed, is not going to be easy.
[09:44] <infaddict> Dunno where the money comes from, it just works
[09:44] <gonzo_> must be a student!
[09:45] <edmoore> get a housemate
[09:45] <edmoore> i'm feeling very flush atm
[09:45] <gonzo_> (we used to count the nukber of cheques left in the book, multiply by the limit on the garauntee card, and that was your balance for the rest of the year)
[09:45] <infaddict> haha nope gonzo_ just got paid so thought i'd splash out
[09:45] <edmoore> ... and yesterday the damp man confirmed that the entire downstairs front room wall need replastering
[09:46] <edmoore> now feeling less flush
[09:46] <gonzo_> the joys of owning a place!
[09:46] <edmoore> yep!
[09:46] <Vaizki> tell me about it.. need to get my 3 story house painted..
[09:46] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: you can also ensure it doesn't exceed 2m by simply computing the free lift required at 2m, and the balloon density so that it's a floater
[09:46] <gonzo_> but think of the joy on the day that the mortgage co send you the deeds through
[09:46] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: especially as you now know the pressure.
[09:48] <SpeedEvil> ^rearrange the above sentence into something that makes sense - I'm not properly awake
[09:48] <gonzo_> SpeedEvil, I was interested to see if it could be made to float by some active means
[09:49] <gonzo_> The other thought was to make a releif valve to vent at a gps alt. Of cousre it could then descend below that alt. But would make an interesting experiment
[09:49] <edmoore> reliable floating at arbitrary altitudes would be a very useful contribution to the hab world
[09:49] <SpeedEvil> One major issue that may mislead - ensure that the flow is adequate at the vastly reduced density
[09:49] <SpeedEvil> In principle, a little servo valve would be 'easy'
[09:49] <SpeedEvil> In practice, less so
[09:50] <Vaizki> fly a small pump which doesn't leak when not running
[09:50] <SpeedEvil> Vaizki: that needs a _lot_ of flow
[09:50] <Vaizki> :)
[09:50] <SpeedEvil> Vaizki: and you never want to pump gas in
[09:50] <gonzo_> wa slooking at naking a solenoid valve, from a modde drelay
[09:50] <Vaizki> SpeedEvil, no I mean pump out
[09:50] <Vaizki> of course
[09:51] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: in general, microservos are more efficient mechanically per unit weight than relays
[09:51] <edmoore> way more complex tho
[09:51] <gonzo_> probably. But I guessed I'd have enough free lift to play with
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[09:52] <gonzo_> just thinking of a small needle valve
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[09:56] <SpeedEvil> Neglecting other stuff.
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[09:58] <edmoore> so back before hoywees we (james and I and fergus iirc) got a totex to float
[09:58] <edmoore> but drilling about a 1.5mm hole in the base of a tube we put in the neck
[09:58] <edmoore> it floated at about 30km i think
[09:59] <edmoore> made it overnight and died the next morning
[09:59] <SpeedEvil> you want 30km float. Air density is 1% or so of nominal.
[09:59] <SpeedEvil> So the orifice has to pass 100* more gas to lose a gram of gas than at sea level
[10:00] <SpeedEvil> The flow rate does increase due to the lower density per delta pressure.
[10:00] <gonzo_> it would be nice to get a knee in the alt graph at the float height. But I expect in reality, given the realistic flow rates for a small valve, it would have quite an overshoot
[10:00] <SpeedEvil> But not that much
[10:01] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: Or you use a PID approach
[10:01] <edmoore> heh https://www.flickr.com/photos/eroomde/3732459035/in/photostream/
[10:01] <edmoore> that was from then
[10:01] <gonzo_> I was looking at ultra somple, so a bang bang control
[10:01] <edmoore> was a beer and pizza tracking night (tho i think i gave up and slept for a bit)
[10:04] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: it might be reasonable to do a very simple approach. 'If over 4m/s at 5km or over, dump until hit 4m/s'
[10:05] <Geoff-G8DHE> Anybody know any info about BERKOHAB, the calendar info suggests two payload but on the same freq. with different formats :-(
[10:06] <gonzo_> yep, an idea certainly. Even a series of rate/heights. But would need careful selection
[10:07] <garymortimer> why not a ballonet like an airship? ie fill a second balloon with cold air to descend has that been tried?
[10:08] <craag> There was a successful US flight that used a second balloon within a non-elastic sphere (made out of 2x parachutes iirc)
[10:08] <Vaizki> I think google's balloon interne tuses a rigid balloon with a flexible ballast balloon inside?
[10:08] <craag> so second balloon became ballast at the intended altitude.
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[10:09] <Vaizki> maybe I remember another project.. hmm.
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[10:09] <garymortimer> @craag yes
[10:10] <garymortimer> that must be how loons work some how
[10:11] <garymortimer> berkohab is off i think
[10:12] <craag> Similar... although they have active control of the air ballast volume
[10:13] <Vaizki> also they can release ballast air to compensate for helium leakage
[10:14] <garymortimer> i wonder if you could climb with extra air as it were in a second balloon and release it until you have desired float. Then you could climb higher, but not lower of course but it would much easier than trying to pump air in
[10:14] <Vaizki> well dunno. seems just much easier with a rigid envelope than trying to think about latex and active height control...
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[10:16] <edmoore> i keeping singing Public Service Broadcasting's GO! in my head
[10:16] <edmoore> it's stuck now
[10:16] <garymortimer> is berkohab really on 434.5? I am hearing what I guess is G7TEM on Southampton SDR
[10:16] <edmoore> 6music keep having it on
[10:16] <adamgreig> haha bad luck
[10:16] <adamgreig> i went to see them live in cambridge
[10:16] <adamgreig> it was a lot of fun, got the whole audience shouting "go!" etc
[10:17] <adamgreig> fun stage show too, they had a huge light up sputnik
[10:17] <SpeedEvil> garymortimer: if you want ballast, ballast, not air is easier
[10:17] <adamgreig> https://www.dropbox.com/sc/ylqoqycsohvmzfh/AADoY7jyT09-YhpoC6LcbTpba
[10:18] <edmoore> nice
[10:18] <SpeedEvil> adamgreig: the russians are about to make a light-up progress.
[10:18] <garymortimer> @speedevil yes water or finely divided sand
[10:18] <adamgreig> SpeedEvil: har har :p
[10:21] <craag> garymortimer: A lot of QRM on 434.500, doesn't look like you'll have much luck on the sdr with this one :(
[10:21] <garymortimer> No I think not, there are not any others suitable in the UK are there?
[10:22] <craag> There's the chesire one, not tried it myself.
[10:22] <craag> http://212.57.225.113:8902/
[10:22] <craag> Oh and http://www.cheshiresdr.co.uk/ it looks like
[10:23] <garymortimer> ohh thanks very much
[10:23] <craag> Of course I won't hear that they're better than suws :P
[10:25] <garymortimer> No heaven forbid
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[10:28] <garymortimer> I was premature in thinking they had launched, must be walking it about a bit
[10:32] <edmoore> garymortimer, i can't see a hab on their site from my window
[10:35] <garymortimer> wow
[10:35] <garymortimer> your close then!
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[11:46] <FuzzyLemon> hi! we are finally ready to olaunch berkohab
[11:47] <FuzzyLemon> sorry about the delay
[11:47] <FuzzyLemon> it rained a lot
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[11:48] <FuzzyLemon> any help with tracking would be much appreciated
[11:48] <FuzzyLemon> launching in less than 5 mins
[11:48] <craag> FuzzyLemon: There are people standing by, good luck!
[11:49] <garymortimer> Cool, watching from South Africa using http://www.cheshiresdr.co.uk/ to hear, its not as elegant as the Southampton one of course
[11:49] <craag> ;)
[11:55] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SKRUFFY after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SKRUFFY
[11:59] <edmoore> nice launch
[11:59] <edmoore> tracked it visually
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[12:27] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03JACKAL3P - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=JACKAL3P
[12:29] <garymortimer> Very nice pub with twisted chimeys where Berko is now can't remember its name
[12:31] <fsphil> there's a book in this. "The HABers guide to pubs"
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[12:32] <infaddict> HABers pics of pubs from the air
[12:33] <garymortimer> your pub from space
[12:33] <garymortimer> can hear it on that most excellent Southampton SDR
[12:34] <fsphil> is there something in the air?
[12:34] <garymortimer> No
[12:34] <garymortimer> No Phi Collins
[12:34] <garymortimer> See I dare not even type his name
[12:34] <Reb-SM3ULC> :)
[12:35] <fsphil> Phi Collins, and his sister Eta
[12:38] <garymortimer> The burst is due for Bassingborne thats where a prop from Memphis Belle sits at the gate, small museum there as well
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[12:53] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03MGSP_ONE - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=MGSP_ONE
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[13:05] <lz1dev> /fq 17
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[13:27] <Laurenceb__> hope everyone remembered to vote
[13:27] <Laurenceb__> http://37.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbaetgjuZ41qzaxefo1_500.jpg
[13:29] <Reb-SM3ULC> right, big day in uk
[13:30] <Ian_> BERKOHAB looks like being an easy recovery as long an no one half inches it. Chase team close by?
[13:31] <garymortimer> was falling at quite a rate
[13:32] <Ian_> 6.1m/s, maybe the top end of good, but GOOD.
[13:33] <Ian_> Of course, garymortimer, you would glide it in to the nearest pub car park?
[13:33] <garymortimer> yes
[13:33] <Ian_> :)
[13:34] <garymortimer> That is at the limits of my known world in the East though so I would be afraid over there
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[13:44] <edmoore> i know pubs around there a bit
[13:44] <edmoore> best thing about having a car at university is you could escape to nice quite country pubs just a short drive out
[13:46] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03berkohabbers_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=berkohabbers_chase
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[14:09] <Laurenceb__> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/powershell/archive/2015/05/06/powershell-dsc-for-linux-is-now-available.aspx
[14:09] <Laurenceb__> what planet am i on
[14:13] <baird> planet retweet
[14:16] <Laurenceb__> planet lurker
[14:17] <infaddict> i planning on 5 metres nylon cord between payload and chute, then 10 metres between chute and balloon. Once the 4 corners from payload are joined, is single cord/line the normal approach?
[14:17] <craag> Other way round on the lengths is the standard way.
[14:17] <infaddict> oops ok, good job i checked! mustve written it down wrong
[14:17] <infaddict> thx craag
[14:17] <craag> So when the balloon swings down under the chute, it comes nowhere near the payload.
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[14:18] <infaddict> and just single line? i have 1.5mm
[14:18] <craag> And yes, single cord keeps it simple/less tangly.
[14:19] <craag> Breaking strength shouldn't be an issue - but worth being aware of for if it gets windy before launch.
[14:20] <infaddict> perfect, thx! not planning on sorting the cord out until chute/balloon arrives as need to see what hooks/loops etc are there to tie on to
[14:27] <edmoore> learning a couple of good knots is useful
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[14:27] <edmoore> a figure-8 through a closed loop is worth knowing
[14:27] <edmoore> it's the strongest knot
[14:28] <infaddict> yep, luckily i'm a dinghy/yacht sailer so ok in that dept i think
[14:28] <edmoore> oh fine
[14:28] <infaddict> funny you mention it as just thinking on best knot for the 4 corners into single cord
[14:29] <infaddict> 4 figure-8s into a loop is certainly an option
[14:29] <edmoore> i think in the past i've sometimes put those little ali caribinas on the top of the payload box
[14:29] <edmoore> or made a little strap from tape
[14:31] <edmoore> flickr have messed around with their webpage
[14:31] <edmoore> now about the top 50% of it is wasted space
[14:31] <Laurenceb__> Web 3.0
[14:36] <SpeedEvil> nasa.gov
[14:36] <SpeedEvil> Everythings an iphone
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[14:38] <fsphil> :/
[14:38] <fsphil> people are optimising websites for the devices worst suited to browsing
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[14:45] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 0336_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=36_chase
[14:56] Nick change: Kalchar_ -> Kalchar
[14:56] Nick change: Kalchar -> Guest32100
[14:58] Nick change: Guest32100 -> test2
[14:58] Nick change: test2 -> Kalchar_
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[15:39] <Laurenceb__> lol we have a replication
[15:39] <Laurenceb__> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vcaOKX7Ko7w
[15:40] <adamgreig> warp drive confirmed
[15:41] <Laurenceb__> http://www.rexresearch.com/grebenn/grebenn.htm
[15:43] <fxmulder> youtube needs a google translate plugin
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[15:58] <SpeedEvil> Oooh.
[15:58] <SpeedEvil> On progress 'Despite the loss of telemetry, the video surveillance channel remained in operation... It made it possible to see that the spacecraft started spinning with a rotational velocity higher than the acceptable one by an order of magnitude, which immediately destroyed the Progress control system..."
[15:59] <SpeedEvil> I speculated a while back that the guidance system was very confused as all the rate gyros were pinned
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[16:09] <richardeoin> Hey Laurenceb__, the EVOH stuff from https://secure.beyondthenet.com/~balloon/pay/ randomly turned up at my door yesterday. Not quite Upu levels of service :( I suspect it's PE-EVOH-PE//Foil, at 30 micron thickness. The tensile strength is 35 - 45 MPa or so, which is quite usable for 8-9km but not for long duration flights
[16:09] <richardeoin> Might give it a go to test out the aprs on the tracker
[16:10] <Laurenceb__> very interesting
[16:10] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRuSYQ5Npek&feature=youtu.be - metrology porn
[16:10] <Laurenceb__> 30micron is thin
[16:10] <SpeedEvil> Electron microscopy of steel cutting in action
[16:10] <Laurenceb__> well - fairly thin
[16:11] <richardeoin> Mmm, well the density is 30g / m2, I'm just guessing the density is ~1g/mm3
[16:12] <richardeoin> Given it's mostly PE (~0.96g/mm3) I'm happy that's a good assumption
[16:12] <richardeoin> *Mmm, well the weight
[16:12] <adamgreig> SpeedEvil: that's ace
[16:14] <Laurenceb__> now i should be able to work this out in my head....
[16:14] <Laurenceb__> <richardeoin> you can achieve a lot with pre stretching
[16:14] <Laurenceb__> in fact its essential
[16:14] <Laurenceb__> otherwise you get stress buildup and failure either at float or after a few days
[16:14] <SpeedEvil> Random thought.
[16:15] <Laurenceb__> whats the roll width?
[16:15] <SpeedEvil> PET bottle preforms are available freely. What happens if you inflate a 2l preform to 200l
[16:15] <SpeedEvil> probably not great
[16:15] <Laurenceb__> hehe
[16:15] <richardeoin> 960mm I think
[16:15] <Laurenceb__> yeah PET is quite porous
[16:15] <Laurenceb__> ok, I'll assume stretch to 1.1m
[16:16] <richardeoin> A few of the papers on the reading list (https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/pub?id=16vDIgtD8QaEkH2HBYw4JjWhgGNfKUVvYzYoCczVwqzI) talk about pre stretching
[16:17] <Geoff-G8DHE> !dial berkohab
[16:17] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE: Latest dials for 03Berkohab 10(6387): 03434.5 MHz
[16:18] <Laurenceb__> ok i get 16km float with H2 and stretched tube
[16:19] <Laurenceb__> but youd want to use a short tube with a payload
[16:19] <SpeedEvil> stretched single-seamed tube?
[16:19] <SpeedEvil> Oh - nvm
[16:19] <Laurenceb__> double seam
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[16:21] <Laurenceb__> hmm
[16:21] <Laurenceb__> with 10 gram payload and 2m long "tube" with H2 I get 12.7km float
[16:21] <Laurenceb__> just like CNSP are getting :D
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[16:22] <Laurenceb__> think ive worked out how their envelopes are constructed
[16:22] <Laurenceb__> this film sounds perfect
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[16:24] <richardeoin> Yeah double seam. But a 12.7km float would mean ~ 10,000 Pa of super pressure by my guesses
[16:24] <Laurenceb__> huh?
[16:25] <Laurenceb__> http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/12/107/20141214 <- weird
[16:25] <richardeoin> Which at d=1.1, thickness=30u gives 150 MPa surface stress
[16:25] <Laurenceb__> you can have any super pressure you want
[16:25] <Laurenceb__> oh
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[16:39] Nick change: Upu- -> Upu
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[17:40] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DG8AR_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DG8AR_chase
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[18:52] <chrisstubbs> GPS trackers are the most frustrating thing to lose
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[18:59] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03STRATOS_CHEM - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=STRATOS_CHEM
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[19:48] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03INFCU1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=INFCU1
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[20:35] <Upu> evening
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[20:42] <Flerb> Hi
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[22:02] <mcbcurator> finished the video of our balloon flight last week: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwt9-CJ7Gq8
[22:05] <Reb-SM3ULC> :)
[22:06] <fsphil> ah proper sound. thanks for not putting music over it :)
[22:06] <mcbcurator> I thought about it, but it just was better with real sound.
[22:07] <Reb-SM3ULC> mcbcurator: all those white dots on the ground about 2 min in is that oil-sites?
[22:07] <mcbcurator> yes
[22:07] <mcbcurator> they're concrete pads that wells are on
[22:07] <fsphil> and nice work on the text tracking the video
[22:07] <mcbcurator> Thanks! That was a pain in the ass until I figured out After Effects' automatic matchmoving tool
[22:10] <Reb-SM3ULC> mcbcurator: nice piece!
[22:10] <fsphil> good chunk of the balloon there
[22:10] <mcbcurator> Yeah, I need to slap that on a scale. It feels like a significant percentage of the balloon's mass is left.
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[22:13] <mcbcurator> When it was descending, I was wondering why telemetry was showing it coming down at 7-10 m/s. I didn't wonder any more once I saw the balloon remnant.
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[22:52] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SV1GZL_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SV1GZL_chase
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[00:00] --- Fri May 8 2015