highaltitude.log.20150506

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[07:18] <fsphil> http://www.livescience.com/50721-near-space-sound-recorded.html
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[07:19] <fsphil> kinda disappointing when you hear it
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[07:42] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Standard headline treatment to get the interest in basically nothing suprising!
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[08:43] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KJ4TOK-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KJ4TOK-11
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[10:38] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb__: http://www.livescience.com/50721-near-space-sound-recorded.html
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[11:04] <amell> is there a livestream of that dragon abort test? i think its at 2pm UK time.
[11:07] <SpeedEvil> http://livestream.com/spacex/events/4027110
[11:17] <Laurenceb__> very interesting
[11:17] <Laurenceb__> thats exactly what i was thinking could be stuck on a pico
[11:17] <Laurenceb__> too late now :-/
[11:20] <SpeedEvil> Redundant Array of Picoballoon Ears.
[11:20] <Laurenceb__> i was actually interested in measuring noise pollution
[11:20] <fsphil> is what they recorded even real
[11:20] <Laurenceb__> at slightly higher frequencies, thats something thats hard to do from satellites
[11:21] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SKRUFFY after 0317 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SKRUFFY
[11:21] <Laurenceb__> fsphil: it seems reasonable
[11:21] <Laurenceb__> more reasonable than em drive :P
[11:21] <fsphil> if I took the output from a pressure sensor and made a wav file of it, would that be infrasound?
[11:21] <Laurenceb__> yes
[11:22] <Laurenceb__> but there arent any baro sensors with high enough sensitivity
[11:22] <fsphil> I've been recording the output from the one on the mountain, though only one sample every 5 minutes
[11:22] <Laurenceb__> they are around 50mPa/sqrt(Hz) last time i looked
[11:22] <Laurenceb__> thats quite a poor microphone
[11:22] <Laurenceb__> heh
[11:22] <fsphil> I've already made a wav file from it. nothing too interesting in it
[11:23] <Laurenceb__> id look at a spectogram
[11:23] <Laurenceb__> i was actually thinking of a pico with CF tube boom based array of I2S MEMS microphones
[11:24] <Laurenceb__> and DAMAS processing on the stm32
[11:24] <Laurenceb__> *an
[11:24] <Laurenceb__> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.457.9805&rep=rep1&type=pdf
[11:24] <Laurenceb__> this is very impressive stuff
[11:24] <Laurenceb__> and could probably only be done from a balloon
[11:24] <fsphil> I should probably increase the sample rate
[11:25] <Laurenceb__> yeah
[11:28] <SpeedEvil> hmm - download exceede
[11:28] <SpeedEvil> d
[11:29] <Laurenceb__> basically this
[11:29] <Laurenceb__> http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:649778/FULLTEXT01.pdf
[11:31] <SpeedEvil> ah
[11:32] <Laurenceb__> but there are more robust approaches since then
[11:32] <SpeedEvil> Neural networks.
[11:32] <SpeedEvil> Plug your microphones into a rat.
[11:33] <Laurenceb__> couple of meters long CF tube with about 6 MEMS microphones could work well and weight ~2 grams
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[11:34] <fsphil> https://www.sanslogic.co.uk/lfa.wav
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> Silly question - do horns help?
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> Or would they need to be as large as the wavelength
[11:34] <fsphil> there is a tone half way through. interesting
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> MEMS microphones are annoyingly noisy
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> quantum
[11:35] <mattbrejza> you only see horns on tweeters on loudspeakers
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> yes
[11:36] <SpeedEvil> I'm unsure what the accoustic impedence of the membrane in MEMs microphones is or if it maters
[11:37] <Laurenceb__> SpeedEvil: there are pretty good MEMS mics now
[11:37] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb__: yes, but the quantum nature of sound screws it
[11:37] <Laurenceb__> second only to the huge power sucking Knowles mics
[11:38] <Laurenceb__> indeed
[11:38] <SpeedEvil> you can't get away from the area
[11:38] <Laurenceb__> but you cant save weight and get the best noise performance
[11:38] <SpeedEvil> In principle, large electret mics can be really light
[11:38] <Laurenceb__> yeah i guess
[11:38] <SpeedEvil> they're just two layers of ~2.5um mylar
[11:39] <SpeedEvil> And for HAB purposes, 20um would do fine, as you don't want response to 20khz
[11:39] <Laurenceb__> i was just condiering ease of making a light low electrical noise boom
[11:39] <SpeedEvil> And yes, they are so much stupidly easier, it's likely a reasonable trade
[11:39] <Laurenceb__> I2S would help there
[11:39] <Laurenceb__> iirc the invensense mems mics are very good
[11:39] <SpeedEvil> Tehre are many MEMS that output pulse-density
[11:40] <Laurenceb__> yes
[11:40] <SpeedEvil> so you could in principle do pure analog averaging
[11:40] <Laurenceb__> not really
[11:40] <SpeedEvil> and yes, it might not be wise.
[11:40] <Laurenceb__> its usually high order delta-sigma
[11:40] <Laurenceb__> or sigma-delta whatever
[11:40] <Laurenceb__> ST have a large range iirc, but higher noise floor
[11:41] <Laurenceb__> the trickiest bit would probably be the firmware, youd want to average across frequencies and use radon transform tricks to get smallest poss pixel size on the ground
[11:42] <SpeedEvil> Or just say fuck-it and jam it all on a SD
[11:42] <Laurenceb__> theoretically ~2km square might be possible from 12km pico with 6 mics
[11:42] <Laurenceb__> heh
[11:42] <Laurenceb__> way way too much raw data to ever downlink
[11:42] <SpeedEvil> As with all interferometers the pixel size gets better, yes, but your sensitivity doesn't.
[11:43] <SpeedEvil> Is there enough raw signal from that 2km pixel to matter?
[11:43] <Laurenceb__> yes, if there is a motorway there for example
[11:43] <Laurenceb__> or some loud factory
[12:00] <Laurenceb__> http://www.micbooster.com/documents/em172-z1.pdf
[12:00] <Laurenceb__> thats a good electret, yet invensense mems is same noise
[12:02] <Laurenceb__> best ST stuff is 3dB worse
[12:03] <Laurenceb__> ooh Knowles have MEMS
[12:04] <Laurenceb__> but it sucks lol
[12:11] <Laurenceb__> lol actually MEMS mics beat all the small Knowles mics now
[12:11] <Laurenceb__> crazy
[12:12] <Laurenceb__> only high end audiophool/pro stuff is better
[12:16] <Laurenceb__> lol http://www.bksv.com/Products/transducers/acoustic/microphones/microphone-cartridges/4179.aspx
[12:16] <Laurenceb__> nearly 30dB better
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[12:36] <SpeedEvil> http://recordinghacks.com/capsules/
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[12:44] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwX-n5Fohsk - SpaceX pad abort test - at least 16 min away
[12:47] <lz1dev> http://www.spacex.com/webcast/
[12:51] <SpeedEvil> Weather is a no-go. (here, it's raining very hard)
[12:51] <SpeedEvil> Looks nice there.
[12:52] <eroomde> watching
[12:52] <eroomde> what fun this is
[12:52] <eroomde> it almost looks like it's on the roof of a shed
[12:52] <eroomde> in an industrial estate
[12:54] <eroomde> i've always thought it'd be fun to over-engineer a hab like this
[12:54] <eroomde> have external umbilical power and transition to internal batteries as part of some needlessly long auto sequence before luanch
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[12:54] <eroomde> maybe have it anchored to a land anchor with a pyro release mechanism to detach and launch
[12:55] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Automated fairing on the ground that retracts underground in a quarter of a second releasing the balloon even in the strongest winds.
[12:55] <eroomde> genius idea
[12:56] <eroomde> like a sort of observatory roof
[12:56] <lz1dev> do they actually do anything in those 10min before launch?
[12:56] <craag> Matt runs umbilical power for our camera payloads recently
[12:56] <lz1dev> or is that like standard thing they do for every launch
[12:56] <eroomde> lz1dev, yeah
[12:56] <eroomde> there is actually a lot behind the scenes
[12:57] <SpeedEvil> On this launch probably simply pressurise the tanks and look for leakage.
[12:57] <SpeedEvil> Maybe check valves.
[12:57] <eroomde> it's about 50% stuff and 50% checklists
[12:57] <eroomde> gopro lol
[12:57] <SpeedEvil> There is relatively little to do for this vehicle simply because it's quite simple.
[12:57] <eroomde> i wondered that too until i started running rocket engine test programs
[12:57] <eroomde> you can happily fill 10 minutes before firing just working through procedures and initialization
[12:57] <SpeedEvil> It's a pressure-fed rocket, with no turbopumps, open the valve, and it goes.
[12:57] <eroomde> blipping this and priming that
[12:58] <SpeedEvil> For 'normal' F9 launches, there is a _hell_ of a lot more going on.
[12:58] <SpeedEvil> As you have propellants that have to be loaded, the stage cooled down, but not too cold, and not too cold for too long, all the pressures and volumes and valves have to be bang on, engine gimbals and grid fins and ... all have to work
[12:59] <lz1dev> whos money is on, 'explodes at T0' ? :D
[12:59] <SpeedEvil> And then you have to be prepared for it to offload a few hundred tons of propellant if it doesn't launch. Hellacomplex
[13:00] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwX-n5Fohsk launch in several seconds
[13:00] <lz1dev> ohwow
[13:00] <SpeedEvil> Woo!
[13:01] <SpeedEvil> Awesome.
[13:02] <UpuWork> that was lovely and smooth
[13:02] <craag> Can't fault that, incredible.
[13:03] <lz1dev> they dont seem to be in a hurry to pick it up
[13:03] <Laurenceb__> oops missed it
[13:03] <craag> Checking it floats :P
[13:03] <Laurenceb__> is there a replay?
[13:03] <craag> Looks like it'll wash up :)
[13:04] <lz1dev> it flies
[13:04] <lz1dev> it floats
[13:04] <lz1dev> gj everyone
[13:04] <SpeedEvil> Hah - capsule is being blown onshore
[13:05] <eroomde> like a hab
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[13:10] <amell> oh i missed it.
[13:10] <amell> looking for the replay
[13:11] <craag> You should jsut be able to move the slider back
[13:11] <amell> oh yeah :)
[13:13] <craag> So neat and tidy, almost looks like cgi.
[13:15] <amell> yep. smooth! mind, i think id be sick if i was inside that thing. at least its better than the alternative.
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[13:17] <eroomde> yeah the post-separachute and drogue deployment looked very unfriendly
[13:17] <eroomde> i mean, better than being dead right, which makes launch escape systems quite an easy sell
[13:17] <eroomde> but still, didn't look fun
[13:17] <amell> i just noticed the fins on the bottom stage - will they be there on the real human falcon launch?
[13:18] <amell> i dont recall seeing those fins on the cargo dragons.
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[13:18] <eroomde> don't know
[13:18] <Laurenceb__> separation was interesting
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[13:19] <Laurenceb__> must have been an RCS running to do that so smoothly?
[13:19] <amell> yeah, didnt look like a pyro sep, i think it was blown off.
[13:19] <Laurenceb__> didnt seem any flashes
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[13:19] <Laurenceb__> from the RCS engines
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[13:19] <amell> that flap that opens down, lets wind in?
[13:19] <Laurenceb__> wouldnt be enough force from that surely
[13:20] <Laurenceb__> that was an electrical connector?
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[13:21] <amell> just watching it again and again, and imagining myself spewing vomit all over the cabin.
[13:21] <Laurenceb__> haha
[13:22] <amell> i gather these capsules are ultimately going to come in to terra firma and use the superdracos for soft touchdown
[13:22] <Laurenceb__> yeah
[13:23] <amell> X marks the spot, have a hot cuppa waiting for you on your return from space.
[13:23] <Laurenceb__> so the chute is kind of redundant
[13:23] <Laurenceb__> guess its useful for emergencies
[13:23] <eroomde> like launch abort
[13:23] <amell> i think chute is needed. superdraco is just for the final bit and adjustments.
[13:24] <amell> would be a lot of hypergolics otherwise.
[13:24] <amell> cant see that the capsule would carry enough to delta V a reentry
[13:25] <eroomde> dunno really
[13:25] <eroomde> it needs something between high supersonic and touchdown
[13:25] <eroomde> just to keep it stable
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[13:25] <amell> yeah, maybe just ditch the chutes on approach.
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[13:26] <Laurenceb__> someone should try trailing bungee rope recovery
[13:26] <Laurenceb__> itd work for falcon 9 .. kind of
[13:26] <Ian_> Unfortunately the vomit would be in your lid and not on an instrument panel. The dummie's eyeballs are probably rattling like a pinball machine during the drogue and main deployment.
[13:27] <eroomde> yeah not much fun
[13:27] <eroomde> but better than death
[13:27] <amell> the dummy may not be in one piece...
[13:27] <eroomde> like brussels sprouts
[13:27] <amell> have to smell the air when they open the capsule door..
[13:27] <amell> did anyone have a brown trouser moment ?
[13:27] <Ian_> Phew, I can imagine
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[14:06] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
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[14:21] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuWtm2YSahY Oooh all 8 engines burning. Wait - 7. Oops. - One of the near pair of superdracos went out early
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[14:26] <russss> well spotted
[14:27] <Laurenceb__> that doesnt look right
[14:27] <Laurenceb__> unless its intended to do that - attitude control
[14:27] <russss> apparently it under-burned by 8 seconds
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[14:29] <Laurenceb__> oh i see it now
[14:29] <Laurenceb__> one engine failed
[14:29] <Laurenceb__> attitude control went wrong so it terminated
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> (It wasn't spotted by me)
[14:31] <russss> you can see the puff of smoke in the wider-angle video as well
[14:32] <russss> would have thought it would still be able to maintain attitude control with one engine out though. Perhaps not at that thrust level though.
[14:32] <Laurenceb__> maybe it aborts on failure once its above a certain altitude or something
[14:33] <SpeedEvil> They may not have bothered coding engine-out
[14:33] <Laurenceb__> yeah or that
[14:33] <russss> yeah sounds plausible
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[17:37] <x-f> fsphil, how did you generate the sound file from sensor data?
[17:44] <fsphil> just outputted each reading as int16 values, adjusted to fill the range
[17:44] <fsphil> sox to convert to wav
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[17:47] Nick change: Upu- -> Upu
[17:47] <x-f> thanks, i'll give it a try
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[17:54] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KK4PCM-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KK4PCM-11
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[17:59] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[18:11] <Reb-SM3U1C> hi¨
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[18:28] <tweetBot> @jamescoxon: A licence for 144 and Above | Southgate Amateur Radio News http://t.co/AbhU5nbAGj #ukhasnet #ukhas #hamr
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[19:41] <SpeedEvil> http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33423.0;attach=829152;image Dragon test
[19:42] <Reb-SM3U1C> Up
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[20:39] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SBS001 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SBS001
[20:42] <fsphil> SBS001 launching today?
[20:47] <Laurenceb> any freecad users here?
[20:51] Nick change: fxmulder_ -> fxmulder
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[20:58] Nick change: Reb-SM3U1C -> Reb-SM3ULC
[21:05] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC9YMN - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC9YMN
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[21:27] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC3DDW-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC3DDW-11
[21:28] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robot_Monster
[21:28] <Laurenceb> lolz
[21:28] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[21:32] <tweetBot> @Tim_Hines: Made my first quarter wave antenna for 433Mhz thanks to the helpful guides at http://t.co/jqUKyewbHW #ukhas #hab http://t.co/A4rsychKpp
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[22:39] <Ian_> Laurenceb [22:27] I have figured out why you need help with various technologies from time to time . . . it seems that your research gets . . . distracted :)
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[22:47] <Laurenceb> lol
[22:48] <Laurenceb> I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot!
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[23:38] <Ian_> Hmmmmm :) I guess you have to take a break from time to time otherwise Jack becomes a dull boy :)
[23:38] <Ian_> I'll try not to let it keep me awake!
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[00:00] --- Thu May 7 2015