highaltitude.log.20150429

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[00:22] <Nova2> hey guys
[00:22] <Nova2> anyone on?
[00:30] <Nova2> i have a quick question about streaming data to ground
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[06:36] <j0nnymac> hello
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[06:37] <UpuWork> hi j0nnymac
[06:38] <j0nnymac> hi there buddy
[06:38] <j0nnymac> quick q? in the hampshire area - are there any good launch sites that you would recommend?
[06:39] <UpuWork> well anywhere can be a launch site as long as you have CAA NOTAM for it and permission of the land owner
[06:40] <UpuWork> your only issue is you're quite close to the channel
[06:40] <UpuWork> and london
[06:40] <UpuWork> and Gatwick etc
[06:42] <UpuWork> and winds generally carry balloons that direction
[06:42] <UpuWork> though it can change
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[06:49] <j0nnymac_> sorry
[06:49] <j0nnymac_> my connection dropped :(
[06:49] <j0nnymac_> thanks for the pointers on launch sites - yeah im a bit worried about being so close to the deep water
[06:50] <craag> Hi j0nnymac_
[06:50] <j0nnymac_> hey there
[06:50] <craag> I'm in southampton - we often launch from the new forest
[06:50] <j0nnymac_> and airports
[06:50] <j0nnymac_> ahaaa!!!!
[06:50] <j0nnymac_> :)
[06:50] <craag> But.. with restrictions on where the balloon can go
[06:50] <j0nnymac_> may I ask - whereabouts in the New Forest?
[06:51] <craag> http://ml.philcrump.co.uk/1d
[06:51] <j0nnymac_> okay - does that mean that if the predictor tool suggests your balloon is going to fly over heathrow - you cancel?
[06:51] <craag> For that one, the balloon is not allowed to drift East or South.
[06:51] <j0nnymac_> brilliant!
[06:51] <j0nnymac_> ill take a look at that
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[06:51] <j0nnymac_> h
[06:52] <craag> It means that the ground wind has to take it either North or West
[06:52] <craag> To avoid it entering southampton airport, or bournemouth airspace
[06:52] <j0nnymac_> aaah gotcha - sounds fair
[06:52] <j0nnymac_> :)
[06:52] <j0nnymac_> i guess the last thing a pilot wants to see is a big balloon drifting into his path
[06:53] <craag> It can change directions at higher altitudes, that's fine.
[06:53] <craag> Yeah - especially on approach!
[06:53] <j0nnymac_> can I ask - how many launches disappear over the water?
[06:53] <craag> Use of the predictor means nearly zero by accident
[06:53] <j0nnymac_> really??
[06:54] <j0nnymac_> that is awesome
[06:54] <craag> the predictor is very very accurate when you fill the balloon to match (get the ascent rate right)
[06:54] <j0nnymac_> that really is good news
[06:54] <j0nnymac_> i was v worried about it wandering off over the channel
[06:55] <craag> We put one in the drink a few weeks ago, but we knew that was going to happen several days before. (and the eclipse didn't wait)
[06:55] <j0nnymac_> i dont mind so much about delaying launches - as long as when we launch there is a goodly chance of getting it back :)
[06:56] <j0nnymac_> another quick q :)
[06:56] <craag> Yep, so the general flow is to identify a weekend that's convenient, apply for the NOTAM a few weeks before, then watch predictions and decide whether to launch or not a day or two before.
[06:57] <j0nnymac_> im kicking (just kicked off) a funky little project where we are looking to 'replicate' the conditions the 'probe' encounters on its way up and down
[06:57] <j0nnymac_> we have lots of really awesome tech
[06:57] <craag> Ah... are you from IBM?
[06:57] <j0nnymac_> rooms with moving floors (yes) lights that are controlled by messaging that sort of thing
[06:58] <j0nnymac_> we could really do with some mentorship though
[06:58] <j0nnymac_> do you think anyone might be up for it? trips to hursley, lots of visibility, probably a fair bit of press involvement
[06:58] <craag> You're already in touch with SUSF I believe?
[06:59] <j0nnymac_> yes - they are fantastic
[06:59] <j0nnymac_> and are really really helpful
[06:59] Action: craag is part of susf
[06:59] <j0nnymac_> (tbh i had made the assumption you are susf
[06:59] <j0nnymac_> ah
[06:59] <j0nnymac_> :)
[07:00] <craag> I haven't been following the emails too closely, but between that and here, there's plenty of mentoring availible :)
[07:01] <j0nnymac_> the chap who ive had most contact with is mattB and he is epic
[07:02] <craag> mattbrejza on here :)
[07:02] <j0nnymac_> trying to persuade him and a few others if they wouldnt mind being mentors - giving talks to the students on the project on what to consider, and also a little bit of guidance on their payload
[07:02] <j0nnymac_> and maybe if its not asking too much
[07:02] <j0nnymac_> help on the day of the launch
[07:02] <j0nnymac_> :)
[07:03] <craag> Yep.. sounds awesome. It's just a question of people finding time I guess!
[07:03] <j0nnymac_> thats exactly it...
[07:04] <craag> Balancing a hobby like this with studies can be a little difficult ;)
[07:04] <j0nnymac_> may I ask - are you on a I.T/Computer science type course?
[07:04] <craag> I've graduated last summer, was on electronic engineering.
[07:05] <j0nnymac_> if so - there is a very high chance of getting lots of free cloud computing from IBM
[07:05] <j0nnymac_> :)
[07:06] <j0nnymac_> the students that are coming to Hursley are doing this for their electronic engineering course
[07:06] <craag> Oh nice.
[07:06] <j0nnymac_> what would be a good way of getting the word out? Is this a good forum to reach people who might be interested?
[07:07] <craag> Absolutely
[07:07] <craag> Have you found the mailing list?
[07:07] <j0nnymac_> hmmm... in fairness i have seen the link - but i havent tried it
[07:07] <j0nnymac_> a good next step?
[07:07] <craag> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/ukhas
[07:08] <j0nnymac_> aah fantastic
[07:08] <craag> Yeah most of the UK HAB community is signed up to it, and a lot of worldwide community as well.
[07:08] <j0nnymac_> so i can create a new topic in there
[07:09] <j0nnymac_> and then folks with time to get involved will join up
[07:09] <j0nnymac_> awesome
[07:09] <j0nnymac_> thanks buddy - ill do that now :)
[07:09] <craag> np
[07:09] <craag> I've gotta run
[07:09] <j0nnymac_> cheers craag
[07:09] <j0nnymac_> cya
[07:09] <craag> Great talking to you!
[07:09] <j0nnymac_> and you buddy
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[08:13] <sq5kvs> Hi edmoore
[08:13] <edmoore> yo
[08:15] <edmoore> all well sq5kvs ?
[08:15] <sq5kvs> who wants to make a career in science? http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/ :)
[08:16] <sq5kvs> ales gut , edmoore
[08:16] <Dread> sq5kvs: old one ;D
[08:19] <sq5kvs> yes, unfottunately my studends know about it longer than I :D
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[08:21] <sq5kvs> anyway
[08:22] <sq5kvs> my coleague ei2kk received the australian balloon few days ago, (by JT9) but not all data was correct
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[08:24] <sq5kvs> so, he send the frames to Andy vk3yt, and andy told - "You received the frames from future - from ballonn ps-44 " :D
[08:24] <pidpawel> :D
[08:25] <edmoore> nice
[08:25] <edmoore> relativity is weird, man
[08:25] <sq5kvs> as I remember there are some specific Maxwell equation solutions , this can explain this strange results :D
[08:26] <sq5kvs> it
[08:28] <Babs____> Someone said to Einstein "apparently there are only 3 people who understand general relativity" to which Einstein responded, after a pause
[08:28] <Babs____> "I am trying to think who the other two are"
[08:33] <pidpawel> :D
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[08:42] <sq5kvs> what about progress? burned?
[08:42] <edmoore> haven't heard that it's burned
[08:43] <sq5kvs> I heard that orbit was too low - 123 km x 306 km (peryg.)
[08:43] <sq5kvs> but not
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[08:57] Nick change: Babs_____ -> Babs____
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[09:12] <Babs____> Morning all - maximum pico weight for under a foil balloon? Mine is at 20g but am wondering whether I can lob on another battery in parallel to boost the life of the tracker
[09:13] <craag> Babs____: Are you trying to float, or jsut up-burst-down?
[09:13] <Babs____> Float
[09:13] <craag> Then 20g is already a little towards the heavy side
[09:13] <craag> So no.
[09:13] <Babs____> Do the foils burst if you send them up fast enough? I thought they would just get to max volume and then stay there
[09:14] <edmoore> they burst yes
[09:14] <craag> Give then more than about 10g of free lift and they'll burst quite reliably.
[09:14] <Babs____> I'm probably a little under 20g if I take off the antenna connector and snap off the programming header
[09:14] <craag> :)
[09:14] <Babs____> Hmmm. Interesting.
[09:14] <craag> 20g is good place to start
[09:14] <Babs____> That antenna connector is already 3g
[09:14] <craag> ha
[09:15] <Babs____> But it looks nicer with it on
[09:15] <craag> :|
[09:15] <sq5kvs> :)
[09:16] <sq5kvs> Is golden?
[09:16] <craag> Babs____: Got any pics?
[09:16] <Babs____> http://flic.kr/p/rWV39r
[09:17] <Babs____> It's working really nicely.
[09:17] <Babs____> I have it doing 16 hours on an aaa battery
[09:17] <craag> Cute
[09:17] <Babs____> But only transmitting once every 60 seconds to get to that power consumption
[09:18] <Babs____> Still, only my second circuit board so the fact that it works is a praise the Lord moment
[09:18] <craag> Hmm, gps in powersave?
[09:18] <craag> cyclic rather
[09:18] <Babs____> Yes, 1 second
[09:18] <Babs____> Other option is to turn the whole thing off for a while
[09:18] <craag> Have you identified what's pulling what current?
[09:18] <Babs____> More or less
[09:19] <Babs____> It's a step up from a single battery to 3.3v
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[09:19] <Babs____> And I have it at 60ma when not transmitting
[09:19] <edmoore> that's a fair bit
[09:19] <craag> yeah
[09:19] <craag> What's the transmitter?
[09:20] <edmoore> what's the clock freq of the cpu and is it doing busywaits or anything?
[09:20] <Babs____> Mtx2 , so it is never going to be hugely efficient
[09:20] <Babs____> 8mhz
[09:20] <Babs____> I saw upu's 2mhz chicanery which is an option
[09:20] <craag> You could clock the AVR slower, and sleep it when you don't need it.
[09:21] <craag> There's the DIV8 fuse that we talked about.
[09:21] <craag> Which would run it at 1MHz with no hardware changes.
[09:21] <Babs____> But really the whole point of it is to test my tracker ahead of the big 2017 launch without having to drive 2 hours outside of london each time
[09:21] <craag> But 60mA is *lot*
[09:21] <sq5kvs> a little
[09:21] <Babs____> Well it was
[09:22] <Babs____> And now i am power OBSESSED
[09:22] <edmoore> see if you can get by on div/8
[09:22] <craag> GPS should be ~5ma
[09:22] <edmoore> if you're busywaiting anywhere, you're doing it wrong
[09:22] <craag> AVR wouldn't be more than 10mA I'd have thoght.
[09:22] <edmoore> what's the idle current of the mtx2?
[09:22] <Babs____> I'm still a bit confused by the fuse settings and worried about c0cking it up and freezing the thing
[09:23] <edmoore> that's actually reasonably hard to do
[09:23] <Babs____> I'm just programming it theough the arduino pro mini 8 mhz settings at the mo
[09:23] <craag> Yep - I've only done it by setting it to use a crystal when I didn't have any with me :P
[09:24] <Babs____> Switching off brown out detection apparently helps a lot too
[09:24] <craag> Yep
[09:25] <sq5kvs> one of the worst thing what You can do is to set the freq too slow for normal programmer, but anyway, there are methods to rescue avr
[09:25] <sq5kvs> :)
[09:25] <craag> Babs____: https://github.com/rocketscream/Low-Power
[09:26] <craag> Nice arduino sleeping library.
[09:26] <craag> *For arduino values of 'Nice'
[09:27] <Babs____> I'm using a sleep library at the moment - it dropped 10ma according to the draw on the power supply (which is how I am measuring it)
[09:28] <edmoore> a sleep library?
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[09:29] <Babs____> Just a way of turning things off by using shorthand ed
[09:30] <edmoore> but does it do busywaiting?
[09:30] <edmoore> this is the crux of my q
[09:30] <Babs____> I have no clue
[09:30] <edmoore> check
[09:30] <edmoore> because that's a terrible abuse of microcontrollers
[09:30] <edmoore> that for some reason arduino pushed on the world
[09:31] <edmoore> (to be fair it existed before)
[09:31] <Babs____> Busy waiting?
[09:31] <edmoore> microcontrollers are about timers and interrupts, if you don't ened to do anything for a few milliseconds, you set a timer to wake you up in x time and then go to a low power mode
[09:32] <edmoore> busywait is this terrible thing whereby you just spin through a for-loop containing a no-operation command for the required time
[09:32] <edmoore> so you CPU stays on full revs doing nothing
[09:32] <edmoore> the length of the for loop having been calculated to waste the desired about of time
[09:32] <adamgreig> like sticking the clutch and gas down at the same time
[09:32] <edmoore> it's lazy bullshit
[09:32] <adamgreig> waiting at the traffic lights
[09:32] <edmoore> and it uses loads of power
[09:32] <sq5kvs> loops = 1000; wait(i--);// 1000 times do nothing :)
[09:33] <sq5kvs> oups sorry, no code :D
[09:33] <sq5kvs> while(i--);
[09:33] <sq5kvs> more coffe!
[09:33] <Babs____> This is what I was using https://github.com/n0m1/Sleep_n0m1
[09:34] <Babs____> I just punted it in at 10pm last night
[09:34] <edmoore> there's almost nothing in a hab flight computer's job (assuming a basic gps + FSK mode and maybe read a sensor) that doesn't involve being asleep 90% of the time on a modest 8bit micro with say 8MHz clock speed
[09:36] <craag> Babs____: Are you controlling the EN on the MTX2?
[09:36] <Babs____> I used the example code in the folder as the base for my sleep command
[09:36] <Babs____> Yes craag, turning it off outside of transmission
[09:36] <craag> Ok, claims 3uA when EN is low
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[09:37] <craag> Is your stepup getting warm?
[09:37] <Babs____> It pulls 60ma off the power source when transmitting
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[09:37] <Babs____> No, staying cool
[09:37] <Babs____> Or at least not hot
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[09:37] <craag> Ok, so MTX2 would pull 20mA
[09:38] <craag> you're stepping up a single AAA, so with a few mA for GPS+AVR, 60mA isn't bad.
[09:38] <craag> What's the idle current is the big question
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[09:38] <Babs____> Idle with the transmitter turned off is 60ma across the aaa
[09:39] <craag> err
[09:39] <craag> so 60mA with the transmitter on AND off?
[09:39] <Babs____> No, 60 with it off, 120 with it on
[09:40] <craag> oh jeez
[09:40] <craag> Something wrong with your stepup I think
[09:41] <craag> Can you put 3.3V onto the other side of the stepup and look at current there?
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[09:41] <eroomde> my antistatic mat has arrived in an antistatic bag
[09:41] <eroomde> ironotron
[09:41] <Babs____> Well, I'm going on what current is being drawn through the external power supply readout when it is putting 1.7v across the terminals
[09:41] <craag> Yep, so check what the circuit is actually pulling at 3.3V
[09:41] <Babs____> So it's probably not massively accurate but a good guide probably
[09:41] <eroomde> i.e. removing the smps from the equation
[09:41] <craag> Then you can work out the efficiency of the step-up
[09:41] <Babs____> Ok will do when I gr back home
[09:42] <Babs____> Step up is 75% apparently
[09:42] <Babs____> Thanks
[09:42] <craag> THat's heavily dependent on layout and stuff - but do the tests and find out :)
[09:43] <craag> 60mA sleep current is ridiculously high.
[09:43] <Babs____> I'll try the div 8 thang
[09:44] <eroomde> kit's worth trying that but also investigate the other components
[09:44] <eroomde> as there's a lot of power to account for there
[09:44] <Babs____> Ok
[09:44] <craag> Check the step-up first :)
[09:44] <eroomde> the idle current of the mtx2 is a big question mark
[09:44] <sq5kvs> typical AAA has less than 1000mAh
[09:45] <craag> eroomde: claims 3uA when EN is low
[09:45] <eroomde> oh right
[09:45] <eroomde> wow
[09:45] <eroomde> so something is very thirsty there
[09:45] <sq5kvs> hah, exacly, 1000mAh/ 60mA is about 16 hours.
[09:46] <eroomde> something is rotten in the state of PCB
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[09:46] <Babs____> Edmoore I can't believe you called my work rotten
[09:47] <Babs____> Although it is rotten ๐Ÿ˜ข
[09:47] <Babs____> Poor the Babs
[09:47] <Babs____> Hah, anyway in other news I bought a HAB box manufacturer
[09:47] <sq5kvs> eromde: Your wave function going to be orthogonal to edmoore?
[09:48] <Babs____> http://www.mobeusequity.co.uk/news/2015/04/28/mobeus-keeps-building-its-portfolio
[09:48] <eroomde> it's not rotten
[09:48] <Babs____> Horticultural, fish box, pharmaceutical and HAB packaging was rejected for the press release
[09:49] <eroomde> there is just something amiss
[09:49] <eroomde> probably one single thing
[09:49] <eroomde> upon whose fixification all will be well and happy
[09:49] <Babs____> ๐Ÿ˜Š
[09:49] <eroomde> sq5kvs, if we talk directly we annihilate each other
[09:49] <eroomde> so don't flirt with danger please
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[09:53] <sq5kvs> eroomde: So everything is clear now, You are dark matter (I mean, particle :)
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[09:56] <sq5kvs> Babs____: Try to disconnect gps, TX, other things, one by one, and see current consumption
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[09:58] <LunarWork> hello
[09:59] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
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[10:34] <tweetBot> @Tim_Hines: Registered for this years #ukhas conference at @ucl in August. Hopefully sitting my @theRSGB foundation course too! #highaltitude
[10:35] <fsphil> woo
[10:42] <dbrooke> I need to sort out some transport logistics if I'm going to make the conf this year as I'm supposed to be driving back from Luxembourg with some friends on 24th
[10:43] <dbrooke> so could fly back a few days early
[10:45] <eroomde> drive there and back
[10:45] <eroomde> stop off in paris
[10:45] <eroomde> steak and chips and a wonder round the pompidou
[10:45] <eroomde> don't actually stop in paris, it's not on the way to calais from luxembourg
[10:46] <eroomde> infact i've done that drive before, it's not the sexiest
[10:46] <eroomde> lille is nice
[10:46] <dbrooke> I suspect a Friday evening flight is most practical
[10:47] <dbrooke> then at least I don't miss too much of the other event
[10:48] <infaddict> what is usual start/finish times for the conference? need to decide if i arrive friday night vs saturday morning.
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[10:49] <eroomde> 10-late
[10:49] <eroomde> there is usually food and pub after
[10:51] <infaddict> cool, getting there for 9.30-10 is not problem. any earlier would been night before for me.
[10:51] <eroomde> try and be around for the sat night, i would recommend
[10:51] <infaddict> thx eroomde, will book train early Sat morning and stay over sat night
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[11:13] <jcoxon> woop, first on the list for the conference
[11:14] <eroomde> can you put me on
[11:14] <jcoxon> have you paypal'd?
[11:15] <jcoxon> i think upu is updating it
[11:15] <eroomde> no but i'm talking
[11:15] <eroomde> so i'm coming
[11:15] <jcoxon> awesome ben firshman is coming
[11:15] <eroomde> heh
[11:15] <eroomde> he came to the 1st one iirc
[11:15] <danielsaul> eroomde: We're updating the list as payments come through to keep track
[11:15] <infaddict> danielsaul: i paid mine this morning fyi
[11:16] <jcoxon> like the old days
[11:17] Action: jcoxon is on the train, got a table and a power point
[11:17] <jcoxon> so doing well
[11:18] <infaddict> woop just redeemed some of my 1st class train reward points to get to the conference ;-)
[11:19] <jcoxon> hopefully lots of people will come to the conference this year
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[11:26] <craag> cheaper accomodation will make a big difference I think
[11:27] <eroomde> joy of being a recent graduate not in london
[11:27] <eroomde> all your other friends probably did move to london
[11:27] <eroomde> so you forget that one actually has to pay money to overnight in london
[11:27] <eroomde> for most people
[11:28] <jcoxon> hehe
[11:29] <infaddict> mmm i need to decide to stay in hotel or politely invite myself to some london relatives haha
[11:30] <eroomde> rellies
[11:30] <eroomde> tho note that festivities after conf usually push through to the bitter end
[11:30] <eroomde> so if they're accomodating rellies
[11:30] <jcoxon> indeed
[11:31] <jcoxon> i think i'll train up and down
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[11:31] <jcoxon> might not be the last person standing like the last few
[11:32] <craag> Soooo who's getting the notam for the sunday?
[11:32] <jcoxon> of course last year we announced that Helen would be doing the keynote speech
[11:32] <eroomde> i'm expecting
[11:32] <mattbrejza> no harm in picos? (wind dependant)
[11:33] <gonzo___> congratulations ed!
[11:33] <jcoxon> not sure she is super keen
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[12:43] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC1DEX-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC1DEX-11
[12:44] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KB1YOF-11 after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KB1YOF-11
[12:44] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[12:44] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC1DEQ-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC1DEQ-11
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[12:54] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03K6RPT-11 after 0311 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K6RPT-11
[12:55] <UpuWork> going back home
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[13:04] <Laurenceb__> matlab question: how can i fit a line through a scatter plot?
[13:06] <lz1dev> straight line?
[13:07] <eroomde> for MMSE?
[13:07] <lz1dev> http://uk.mathworks.com/help/matlab/data_analysis/linear-regression.html
[13:08] <Laurenceb__> yes
[13:08] <Laurenceb__> hmm
[13:08] <Laurenceb__> i have a point density cloud
[13:08] <Laurenceb__> think 2d histogram
[13:08] <Laurenceb__> also this has to run in octave :S
[13:09] <Laurenceb__> nasty demo code
[13:09] <Laurenceb__> http://pastie.org/10120319
[13:09] <Laurenceb__> thats also probably broken somewhere, but i think it shows the idea
[13:09] <Laurenceb__> nasty for loops :-/
[13:10] <eroomde> not even reading that
[13:11] <eroomde> it just sounds like you want to do MMSE
[13:11] <eroomde> so
[13:11] <eroomde> if you have two variabls x and y
[13:11] <lz1dev> sum(sum(scatter))
[13:11] <lz1dev> SUMSUMSUMSUMSUMSUSMUSMSUMSUMSUSMUSMUSMSUMSUMSUMSUSMUSMUSMSUMSUMSUSMUSMUS
[13:11] <eroomde> (x.T*x)^-1 * x.T * y
[13:12] <eroomde> however x has to be a matrix to give it another degree of freedom
[13:12] <eroomde> so you can have m and c in y=mx+c
[13:12] <Laurenceb__> hmm
[13:12] <Laurenceb__> yeah maybe i can do everything with big matrices
[13:12] <eroomde> so have a column of 1s affixed to that
[13:12] <eroomde> so like X = [x1, 1; x2, 1; x3, 1]
[13:13] <eroomde> rather than X = [x1; x2; x3]
[13:13] <eroomde> the result of that sum at the top should just be a m and c in a 2-vector
[13:13] <eroomde> or c and m
[13:13] <eroomde> whichever
[13:14] <Laurenceb__> hmm
[13:14] <Laurenceb__> whats T ?
[13:14] <sq5kvs> or a thensor
[13:14] <eroomde> yeah octave should swallow up matrices efficiently with pinv so i wouldn't worry about it being too large
[13:14] <eroomde> unless it's massive
[13:14] <eroomde> transpose
[13:14] <eroomde> sorry i was writing python there laurenceb
[13:14] <eroomde> i don't do matlab reaklly anymore
[13:14] <eroomde> so
[13:14] <eroomde> hrm
[13:15] <eroomde> (pinv(x'*x))*x'*y
[13:15] <eroomde> i think?
[13:15] <Laurenceb__> sure thats a standard equation
[13:15] <eroomde> right
[13:15] <Laurenceb__> but im not sure how it helps
[13:15] <eroomde> well that's all i told you
[13:15] <Laurenceb__> i have a 2d histogram :P
[13:15] <eroomde> well it fits a line that minimises mean squared error through a scatter plot
[13:16] <eroomde> oh...
[13:16] <eroomde> how do you fit a straight line to a 2d histogram?
[13:16] <Laurenceb__> sorry i should have rephrased the question
[13:16] <eroomde> oh i see i think
[13:16] <sq5kvs> :D
[13:16] <Laurenceb__> my biggest problem is that its in 2d histogram form
[13:16] <eroomde> no maybe i don't see
[13:16] <Laurenceb__> its a data organisation problem
[13:16] <Laurenceb__> if i could get it into vector form its trivial to solve
[13:16] <eroomde> yeah i'm not sure what fitting a line would meaningfully... mean
[13:17] <eroomde> you'd have to constrain the angle of the line and then find the centre of mass
[13:17] <Laurenceb__> yes
[13:17] <eroomde> or constrain the centre of mass and find the angle of the line to minimise whatever it is
[13:17] <Laurenceb__> i think you are overthinking it
[13:18] <Laurenceb__> its a case of resorting the data then doing least squares
[13:18] <Laurenceb__> but resorting is confusing me
[13:18] <eroomde> i'm doing precisely as much thinking as is possible with the information you've provided
[13:18] <Laurenceb__> heh
[13:18] <eroomde> it's like that triangulation with carrier wave phase conversation all over again
[13:18] <Laurenceb__> lol sorry
[13:19] <Laurenceb__> just a sec
[13:19] <Laurenceb__> http://filebin.ca/200IRwqUkwHh/CRT_Scatter_Temp_Peripheral.eps
[13:20] <Laurenceb__> left hand side plot, i want to fit a line through it
[13:20] <Laurenceb__> it should trend down with increasing temperature
[13:24] <eroomde> right
[13:25] <eroomde> so you want a line that (forgive mechnaical analogies) minimises the moment of inertia abut that line?
[13:25] <eroomde> if you model each histogram bin as a point mass
[13:25] <Laurenceb__> yes
[13:25] <eroomde> right
[13:25] <eroomde> well, formulate it as a matrix equation and off you go :D
[13:25] <Laurenceb__> but i dont care about the bearings :P
[13:25] <Laurenceb__> hmf :-/
[13:25] <eroomde> what about stiction tho?
[13:25] <Laurenceb__> ah yeah i guess that way is fairly easy
[13:26] <Laurenceb__> nice analogy
[13:26] <Laurenceb__> now how do i import in opencascade....
[13:27] <eroomde> so the moment of inertia was the extra constrain needed
[13:27] <eroomde> (by analogy)
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[13:41] <eroomde> Laurenceb__, so a did a whiteboard thing
[13:41] <eroomde> so let's say each bin in your histogram is a datapoint
[13:41] <Laurenceb__> yup
[13:41] <eroomde> and s is the score in each bin
[13:42] <eroomde> define a diagonal matrix S where each element is the score for each bin
[13:42] <Laurenceb__> why is it diagonal?
[13:43] <eroomde> so the line vector = (X.T*S*X)^-1 * X.T*S*y
[13:43] <eroomde> because it's just multiplying each element by its score
[13:43] <eroomde> nothing more
[13:43] <eroomde> where the score is zero that bin will just remove itself from the equation
[13:44] <eroomde> X.T is X-transpose again sorry
[13:44] <eroomde> i think it's as simple as that
[13:44] <Laurenceb__> interesting
[13:44] <Laurenceb__> but what are X and y ?
[13:46] <eroomde> X are all the x values in your historgram
[13:46] <eroomde> all of them
[13:46] <eroomde> so each 'bin' pixel if you see what i mean
[13:46] <eroomde> and a column of 1s as before
[13:46] <Laurenceb__> i think i get it
[13:47] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03K9BIG-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K9BIG-11
[13:47] <eroomde> so, this is matlab code from memory
[13:48] <eroomde> X = [x(:) ones(length(x),1)]
[13:48] <Laurenceb__> oh i see how
[13:48] <eroomde> Y = y(:)
[13:48] <eroomde> S = diag(z(:))
[13:48] <Laurenceb__> yeah ive written this exact code before
[13:48] <eroomde> where z are the bin values
[13:48] <eroomde> yep
[13:48] <eroomde> and then you just plug those in
[13:48] <Laurenceb__> but never applied it quite like this - to 2d histo
[13:49] <eroomde> it's still weight least squares, just doing a tiny jig to map histogram bins as data points
[13:49] <eroomde> barely even a jig
[13:49] <eroomde> a shuffle
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[13:49] <eroomde> a tap of foot
[13:49] <Laurenceb__> oh using diag
[13:49] <Laurenceb__> i see thats the step i missed
[13:49] <eroomde> yeah
[13:49] <Laurenceb__> i understand now
[13:49] <Laurenceb__> thanks, ive done the rest of that before
[13:49] <eroomde> coolio
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[14:19] <SpeedEvil> Anyone more southerly than 51N, get ready to duck!
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> (incoming progress soon)
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> They've declared it a loss.
[14:20] <adamgreig> aww :(
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
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[14:23] <sq5kvs> Hm, I'm on 52*13N
[14:23] <craag> Have they got any control at all?
[14:23] <SpeedEvil> craag: nope.
[14:23] <SpeedEvil> craag: It's seemingly either collided with after launch, or the seperation went very wrong.
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> No telemetry from the third stage after 3s before end of nominal flight.
[14:24] <j0nnymac> quick q - can you utilise LoRa with PiTS?
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> And 44 bits in orbit.
[14:24] <sq5kvs> hm, nice
[14:25] <lz1dev> SpeedEvil: what is this thing?
[14:25] <craag> j0nnymac: I believe it's in development, email dave akerman.
[14:25] <SpeedEvil> Progress - carrying ~7 tons to the ISS
[14:25] <SpeedEvil> Russian capsule
[14:26] <lz1dev> russian tech
[14:26] <lz1dev> best tech
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> Next supply flight is spaceX in June.
[14:26] <j0nnymac> cheers fella
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> If that fails, then people will be shitting themselves, as they may need to - partially - abandon station
[14:27] <eroomde> i hope LoRa naffs off
[14:27] <eroomde> for hab
[14:28] <lz1dev> SpeedEvil: so its intentional reentry
[14:28] <lz1dev> rather than failure?
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> lz1dev: Failure
[14:28] <eroomde> unless i've misunderstiood what i read about the modulation they use having some IP-protected parts
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> lz1dev: It launched, and has never made a programmed manoever.
[14:29] <SpeedEvil> lz1dev: after seperated from the launch vehicle non-nominally. No normal telemetry, only video
[14:29] <lz1dev> probably running windows vista
[14:29] <lz1dev> :D
[14:29] <eroomde> but if you can't legally make (for free) wireless things that interoperate with LoRa modules then it's not really what ought to be promoted in hab
[14:29] <eroomde> (I think)
[14:30] <mattbrejza> well you could make a soft reciever, you just cant sell it?
[14:30] <mattbrejza> i think thats how patents work?
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> mattbrejza: not quite.
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> you can make a demonstration thing, you can't gain in any way from it.
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> So you can make a coffee machine - say - you just can't drink the coffee as othe rthan a test
[14:31] <mattbrejza> so dave couldnt give it away with the pits
[14:31] <eroomde> does anyone who knows about LoRa know if that's the case? (part of the modulation being ip-protected)
[14:31] <mattbrejza> yea mark found the patents
[14:31] <staylo> Presumably it's going to get interesting if the Soyuz third stage is in question.
[14:31] <eroomde> that sucks then
[14:31] <SpeedEvil> staylo: yup. Lack of telementry sucks, as it's basically now total guesswork from zero data
[14:32] <mattbrejza> what exactly is patented im unsure, as i think that class of modulation has been around a while
[14:33] <mattbrejza> https://www.google.com/patents/EP2278724A1?cl=en
[14:33] <adamgreig> certainly anyone capable could make their own decoder and use it? patents just stop you gaining from the invention as SpeedEvil says
[14:33] <adamgreig> unclear if releasing foss software decoder would fall foul of the patents
[14:34] <adamgreig> or if they could do anything other than ask you to stop releasing it
[14:34] <adamgreig> i guess it probably must
[14:34] <Laurenceb__> isnt there already a foss decoder?
[14:34] <mattbrejza> well how to things like mp3 encoders work?
[14:34] <mattbrejza> i thought they use patents
[14:34] <craag> probably a situation for ukhas to stay clear of tbh
[14:35] <eroomde> mmm but it gets hairy when you have to be careful about distribution and whther or not you've actually made money
[14:35] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: mp3 is patented and you pay for it
[14:35] <eroomde> if you doa commercial hab launch with a soft receiver, is that in violation?
[14:35] <adamgreig> e.g. microsoft pay so that windows can do it
[14:35] <adamgreig> canonical pay for some ubuntu use cases iirc
[14:35] <adamgreig> in the UK it's not patented, so you can violate it at leisure
[14:35] <mattbrejza> interesting that the patent i linked to appears to only patent the modulator though
[14:36] <eroomde> sure but the modulator is important
[14:36] <mattbrejza> a soft reciever wouldnt infringe?
[14:36] <mattbrejza> oh i probably should have read the whole thing lol
[14:36] <adamgreig> patents are a generally complicated business
[14:36] <adamgreig> i'm a bit dismayed at the lora thing too
[14:36] <eroomde> yeah
[14:37] <adamgreig> but it's tricky cuz i've been dismayed at how terrible from a coding/comms point of view rtty is for ages
[14:37] <adamgreig> and finally people are using spread spectrum error coded things with binary payloads, ace, fantastic
[14:37] <eroomde> well i guess we should put up or shutup with a better open alternative
[14:37] <adamgreig> yes exactly
[14:37] <eroomde> but we should still appeal to people to not brainlessly go down a closed route
[14:37] <eroomde> carrot and stick
[14:38] <adamgreig> i can't come out and say "yes i've been saying for ages that rtty is shit cuz of a, b, and c, but you shouldn't use this other thing that does a, b and c because of d"
[14:38] <adamgreig> really do need to have something better i think
[14:38] <adamgreig> for a pragmatist lora works v well
[14:38] <craag> Some of the TI CC11xx stuff claims ~140dB of theoretical link budget at 10mW FSK, 300bps.
[14:39] <adamgreig> nothing wrong with fsk, but does the CC11xx stuff do FEC/preamble/framing?
[14:39] <mattbrejza> youll need to have the tx and rx within a few 100Hz of each other though?
[14:39] <adamgreig> i guess it probably does at that
[14:39] <eroomde> mmm but pragmatism is cool except with regulatory issues i think
[14:39] <craag> no FEC
[14:40] <adamgreig> yea but it seems like lora is ok from regulatory pov?
[14:40] <craag> well 1101 does, but its not great specs.
[14:40] <adamgreig> i mean ok maybe not for HAM (though given people use d-star and that yaesu thing it seems they're fine with people using weird modes)
[14:40] <craag> yep
[14:40] <eroomde> as pragmatism leads to all those countries and states where an engineer or engineers run it and they're often financially healthy but still basically distatorships
[14:40] <eroomde> if that's not going too offtopic
[14:41] <adamgreig> so instead you're proposing saying people should not use this pragmatic new thing and stick with the old fashioned stuff? :p
[14:41] <eroomde> well lots of people do still hate d-star for that reason
[14:41] <adamgreig> i mean that sounds like the other way around dictatorship
[14:41] <Laurenceb__> im getting 154dB with silabs
[14:41] <adamgreig> much db
[14:42] <Laurenceb__> enough for pico ,<-> cubesat
[14:42] <Laurenceb__> thanks eroomde: http://filebin.ca/200hHo81PYQI/CRT_Scatter_Temp_Peripheral.eps
[14:42] <adamgreig> 154dB is a crazy link budget
[14:42] <craag> Laurenceb__: Can you give more details?
[14:42] <Laurenceb__> yeah its a pita to test
[14:42] Action: craag is currently designing a cubesat uplink
[14:42] <Laurenceb__> im going 25th to ground floor of a tall building
[14:43] <eroomde> cool Laurenceb, glad it worked
[14:43] <Laurenceb__> and its going through the wiring
[14:43] <mattbrejza> was the maximuim tx/rx oscillator error it can handle?
[14:43] <Laurenceb__> 1ppm
[14:43] <eroomde> adamgreig, it's more like this
[14:43] <mattbrejza> not too bad
[14:43] <eroomde> community wants better road/rail links and infrastructure generally
[14:43] <mattbrejza> is that the one that looks for the signal around where you tune it to?
[14:44] <eroomde> dictatorship comes along and says 'i can get that done in 1 year' and they say 'yay! please!'
[14:44] <Laurenceb__> where the f
[14:44] <Laurenceb__> i cant even find my github
[14:44] Action: Laurenceb__ epic fail
[14:44] <eroomde> and the bit about people being forcibly moved over a 1 week period and their houses bulldozed and a forrest flattened all gets forcibly supressed (no protests, no reporting in the press or whatever)
[14:45] <Laurenceb__> shrug, just shoot them
[14:45] <eroomde> whereas a democratic government has to take forever trying to make everyone happy to do it and minimise the harm
[14:45] <Laurenceb__> i can has dictatorship?
[14:45] <eroomde> so in the first scenario, by applying stick, all i want to be is the guy saying to the comminity 'think about this for a mo before you agree to the dictorship plan'
[14:45] <Laurenceb__> finally --> https://github.com/Laurenceb/STM32_Launcher/tree/master/Silabs
[14:45] <eroomde> u see?
[14:46] <Laurenceb__> but thats a one way link, cuz im lazy
[14:46] <Laurenceb__> u need this https://github.com/Laurenceb/Tx_board
[14:46] <eroomde> patents are so bloody hard to read
[14:47] <Laurenceb__> haha
[14:47] Action: Laurenceb__ has been writing some recently
[14:47] <eroomde> j0nnymac, to distill the above, might you be impressed upon to not use something proprietary (like LoRa) in your education efforts, unless you have a really burningly good reason to do so?
[14:48] <Laurenceb__> <mattbrejza> you might be able to increase the pull in range
[14:49] <Laurenceb__> i went to 1ppm, cuz its practical with tcxo at each end
[14:49] <mattbrejza> ok
[14:49] <Laurenceb__> theoretically you can get larger pull in, considering the noise
[14:49] <Laurenceb__> but im not sure the silabs front end could handle it
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[14:49] <Laurenceb__> it might need multiple CIC filter configurations
[14:49] <eroomde> adamgreig, so what would an idea thing look like?
[14:50] <mattbrejza> how long did it take you to get the right register config?
[14:50] <Laurenceb__> the hardware can only swap FIR filter config automatically after the AFC costs loop has locked
[14:50] <eroomde> i think not requiring a linear PA is probably necessary to make the power budget palatteable
[14:50] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KE0EAC - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KE0EAC
[14:50] <Laurenceb__> mattbrejza: 3 months
[14:50] <mattbrejza> lol
[14:50] <Laurenceb__> i had to simulate a lot of it in matlab
[14:50] <adamgreig> so, bpsk
[14:50] <eroomde> or MFSK
[14:50] <adamgreig> indeed
[14:50] <eroomde> (e.g. lora is FHSS)
[14:51] <adamgreig> mfsk is easier to modulate by crystal pulling for cheap tx
[14:51] <Laurenceb__> ended up with custom filter configs to get better AFC performance and good noise rejection at 200bps
[14:51] <adamgreig> though fhss by crystal pulling is a bit of a pain
[14:51] <eroomde> yeah
[14:51] <Laurenceb__> yeah wtf
[14:51] <Laurenceb__> do it properly please
[14:51] <adamgreig> shrug, you can do it multiple ways
[14:51] <Laurenceb__> with a good si446x library its all you should ever need
[14:51] <j0nnymac> of course. I had discovred LoRa when reading around - and understood that if offered 2 way comms and vid download.
[14:51] <adamgreig> probably something like turbo codes to get reasonable encode/decode complexity
[14:52] <adamgreig> ldpc won't work for our block lengths
[14:52] <eroomde> no vid download
[14:52] <adamgreig> what does lora fec use?
[14:52] <Laurenceb__> convolution + RS
[14:52] <mattbrejza> shit fec
[14:52] <adamgreig> a serial concat code?
[14:52] <adamgreig> Laurenceb__: what is the SI chip of choice for doing some general purpose radio things?
[14:52] <mattbrejza> i thought it was block?
[14:53] <adamgreig> was thinking si4060 but idk what people like these days
[14:53] <adamgreig> eroomde: basically it rapidly becomes a non trivial amount of effort to do something good, and especially competing with an ASIC is hard
[14:54] <mattbrejza> j0nnymac: you can get at least 5kbps with lora, but you might have to have a ARQ system to work against packet loss
[14:54] <adamgreig> ARQ with live video sounds like a recipe for disaster :p
[14:54] <eroomde> well NTX2s compete with SiLabs stuff
[14:54] <mattbrejza> video at 5-10kbps?
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[14:54] <Laurenceb__> i use 4461 and 4463
[14:54] <eroomde> like it doesn't have to have the 20% power saving vs discretes of an asic to still be good enough
[14:54] <mattbrejza> i was thinking more fast ssdv
[14:55] <adamgreig> nah they don't
[14:55] <adamgreig> NTX2b / MTX2 is an Si4060
[14:55] <LunarWork> be back later
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[14:55] <adamgreig> and I meant more that the LoRa chips presumably could have FEC and FHSS stuff in hardware
[14:55] <adamgreig> which saves a lot of work trying to encode on an AVR
[14:55] <adamgreig> admittedly with everyone flying rpis, whatever
[14:56] <eroomde> yeah
[14:56] <j0nnymac> ok - 5kbps for vid sounds a bit poor
[14:56] <mattbrejza> i have a avr turbo encoder...
[14:56] <eroomde> and having a stack on a micro is no massive burden either i don't think
[14:56] <diegoesep> with LoRa and 20khz bandwith , the fasted bitrate is 1.5kbps (SF6)
[14:56] <eroomde> if you do a nice job of the library it becomes a useful reference
[14:56] <Laurenceb__> http://i.imgur.com/IyliyVR.jpg
[14:56] <Laurenceb__> ^ si4461 board
[14:56] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: that's why I suggested turbo if anything, it's probably the best you'll get on an AVR
[14:56] <mattbrejza> oh yea, 5kbps is only at 10%DC lol
[14:57] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ZS6GC_Chase_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ZS6GC_Chase_chase
[14:57] <eroomde> i'm sure turbo codes (well, IP free things) will be plenty good enough
[14:57] <adamgreig> patents on turbo codes have just run out iirc
[14:57] <j0nnymac> it would be awesome though to be able to communicate with the payload though - and trigger an activity
[14:57] <Laurenceb__> yeah thats what my board is for testing
[14:57] <adamgreig> what's it for testing?
[14:57] <eroomde> adamgreig, oh really? that's splendid
[14:57] <Laurenceb__> uplink control terminal
[14:58] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ZS6GC_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ZS6GC_chase
[14:58] <mattbrejza> lora is probably the easiest uplink method atm
[14:58] <eroomde> j0nnymac, sure, though uplinks to habs in the uk have been done since 2009
[14:58] <eroomde> just using ham radio stuff
[14:58] <eroomde> no propriopropanol
[14:58] <j0nnymac> uplinks via LoRa or something else?
[14:58] <eroomde> no not via lora
[14:59] <eroomde> lora didn't exist then as far as i know
[14:59] <eroomde> just very simple modulation
[14:59] <j0nnymac> gotcha - can I ask how the uplink was established?
[14:59] <j0nnymac> ok...
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[15:00] <j0nnymac> so (forgive my ignorance here) a receiver on the payload - which then used used the signal to trigger an action
[15:00] <eroomde> yes
[15:00] <j0nnymac> hmm... thats interesting
[15:00] <eroomde> in our case it was to tell a high altitude experiment to begin
[15:00] <j0nnymac> i havent read about it being done before - is it a PiTA to do?
[15:00] <eroomde> and generally talk to it to check its status and so on during bits of the flight
[15:01] <eroomde> ok, so elephant in the room
[15:01] <eroomde> power levels
[15:01] <j0nnymac> aaha so it really sucks up the power
[15:01] <eroomde> it's super easy if you think of it as a ham radio activity, being used to remote-control equipment
[15:02] <eroomde> and someone at ofcom has basically validating this view, with the proviso that they are not a lawyer
[15:02] <eroomde> j0nnymac, no, wait for me to finish
[15:02] <eroomde> so receiving doesn't particularly take power
[15:02] <eroomde> but if you want to broadcast up from the ground with a very simple modulation scheme it helps to have a bit of power behind it - a few watts
[15:02] <eroomde> that's fine if you have a ham license
[15:03] <j0nnymac> aaahhh....
[15:03] <eroomde> if you don't, you have to work within some of the license-free bands which generally have much much lower power limits
[15:03] <eroomde> so if you have a ham, i would fly a simple fm receiver and transmit up something really simple
[15:04] <eroomde> even DTMF for old-school coolness, and because you can get DIP chips that'll decode that quite happily
[15:04] <eroomde> (tho it's well within the bounds of a microcontroller anyway)
[15:04] <j0nnymac> i dont have a HAM license :(
[15:04] <eroomde> but some simple thing
[15:05] <eroomde> we did an even more crude way of transmitting and receiving which needed even more power. wouldn't recommend it but it was up and working within a couple of evenings of having the inital idea and we were on a very car-crash project
[15:06] <j0nnymac> ok
[15:06] <eroomde> but if you go ISM (the license-free bands) there are still some power limits that are plenty of power for an uplink, i think
[15:07] <j0nnymac> that would be interesting
[15:07] <j0nnymac> and get the students attention
[15:07] <mattbrejza> lora does work for an uplink, but yea, somewhat less satisfaction than designing one yourself
[15:07] <eroomde> well, so here is adamgreig's pragmatism again - if you definitely need the uplink and you have not much radio experience and you want to launch in 6 weeks or whatever it was you said, perhaps you do want a non-open thing
[15:07] <Laurenceb__> s/perhaps/def
[15:08] <j0nnymac> yeah - i must admit now, my concern over running over time - is greater than my curiosity at learning something new
[15:08] <eroomde> but if you could spec a flight without and perhaps have a student have a crack at an uplink using ISM stuff (e.g. i think you can have 500mW transmit from the ground on 800MHz, which is *loads*) then that might be cool
[15:08] <adamgreig> and honestly even if there was some standard ed-approved way of doing radio links - say we did do an MFSK mode with turbo codes and stuff - probably in practice for most people it's a case of grab that library and the recommended PCB radio and use it
[15:08] <eroomde> yeah
[15:08] <adamgreig> the majority of people aren't going to want to implement turbo coders just to launch a hab, right
[15:08] <eroomde> i have no doubt that would be the case
[15:08] <eroomde> but it'd all be open at least
[15:09] <j0nnymac> true...
[15:09] <adamgreig> what's the difference though? nothing stops us doing our own radio modes
[15:09] <adamgreig> it's a bit like DSMx in RC planes/cars etc
[15:09] <eroomde> well exactly
[15:09] <adamgreig> it used to be, everyone did that FM PPM thing
[15:09] <adamgreig> "open" by virtue of being standardised
[15:09] <eroomde> hence the put up or shut up stuff i said earlier
[15:09] <mattbrejza> my turbo encoder is 700 lines of c, all it does is xor and interleave :/
[15:09] <mattbrejza> https://github.com/mattbrejza/turbohab/blob/master/encoder/libturbohab/libturbohab.c
[15:09] <adamgreig> these days, everyone does DSMx, which is this mad 2.4GHz DSSS business that's very closed and 'secret'
[15:10] <adamgreig> of course you can also buy a load of off-brand tx/rx so I assume people have figured it out entirely
[15:10] <Laurenceb__> mattbrejza: ok so i had a look at matlab sim
[15:10] <adamgreig> but it's usefully more complex than the old PPM thing that it's not really within most hobbyist's abilities
[15:10] <Laurenceb__> looks like +-1.5ppm is the limit
[15:10] <mattbrejza> ok
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[15:11] <mattbrejza> whats the limit of a tcxo usually?
[15:11] <Laurenceb__> at 200bps, unless you want to offload afc onto the mcu
[15:11] <Laurenceb__> ~1ppm
[15:11] <Laurenceb__> depends, if it goes outside spec, a lot
[15:11] <eroomde> so we could do with something with compelling performance for people who aren't bothered about openness, compelling performance for people who just want to sell flight computers to make some money, and openness for people who care about that sort of thing
[15:11] <Laurenceb__> my ground station has manual frequency control
[15:11] <adamgreig> where LoRa seems to do the first two use cases quite nicely
[15:11] <mattbrejza> tbh for hab you could probably increase the bitrate to relax the requirement a bit
[15:11] <eroomde> yeah
[15:12] <Laurenceb__> yeah, i have enough link budget for sat comms atm :D
[15:12] <adamgreig> and the only downside is that it's not open and you can foresee this nightmare future where every flight is LoRa instead of UKHAS RTTY
[15:12] <fsphil> :/
[15:12] <eroomde> exactly
[15:12] <eroomde> instead of ukhas *something* anyway
[15:12] <eroomde> or any other hammy mode
[15:12] <mattbrejza> you can always tx rtty + lora from the same tracker though
[15:12] <adamgreig> the practical difference being now you need an 868MHz SDR instead of your UHF ham radio (cheaper) and lora-dl-fldigi that can demod it?
[15:14] <eroomde> well, no-one it seems has really explored trying to see what you can squeeze down 3kHz in a ham band for decent LoS communications. so it's not like the choice is between lora and the status quo
[15:14] <adamgreig> eroomde: don't get me wrong, I'd absolutely love to see new and open and interesting radio modes and have people use something cool, and have spent time working on various ideas for it
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[15:15] <eroomde> it would just be nice if LoRa was a kick up the bum rather than a replacement
[15:15] <adamgreig> but hard to compete with LoRa which has a team of full time engineers working on this for bigger customers and with custom hardware etc
[15:15] <eroomde> sure but you've defined 'compete' extremely broadly there
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[15:15] <adamgreig> is mfsk much better than fast wide 2fsk?
[15:15] <adamgreig> for the same power, bandwidth
[15:16] <eroomde> it doesn't have to fulfill orders of 10,000 - 1,000,000 or have integration consultants or save every last uA or be RoHS compliant or whatever
[15:16] <mattbrejza> well it has much more bandwidth
[15:16] <adamgreig> i guess it's like comparing 2QAM with 128QAM sort of thing, depends on SNR
[15:16] <adamgreig> no it doesn't mattbrejza ?
[15:16] <adamgreig> you can do MFSK and 2FSK using the same bandwidth depending on your symbol rate?
[15:16] <eroomde> it would just be good if there was something that'd plop say 1kbps down over a 3kHz channel with a normal habby link budget
[15:16] <eroomde> that would probably be Good Enough
[15:16] <mattbrejza> if you limit to 3kHz youll need to use MSK (or QAM etc)
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[15:17] <Laurenceb__> eroomde: silabs could do that
[15:17] <Laurenceb__> atm im getting 200bps
[15:17] <adamgreig> but what is it? lora can "do that", it's not useful to say silabs can
[15:17] <Laurenceb__> just needs an open decoder
[15:17] <Laurenceb__> 2fsk
[15:17] <adamgreig> what's on top of the 2fsk?
[15:17] <Laurenceb__> so just a bit recovery clock
[15:17] <Laurenceb__> nothing
[15:17] <adamgreig> why would you need an open decoder then? can't just dl-fldigi do it?
[15:17] <Laurenceb__> im using raw data with crc16
[15:18] <Laurenceb__> because the bit recovery in in the IC
[15:18] <Laurenceb__> *is
[15:18] <mattbrejza> it means you can have a nice handheld reciever rather than a horrible mess
[15:18] <adamgreig> sure, if you have another si chip on the rx
[15:18] <adamgreig> but say you rx with your SDR or a ham radio or something
[15:18] <Laurenceb__> yeah lol
[15:18] <Laurenceb__> then you need bit recovery
[15:18] <eroomde> yes, the point is very much to make this work with your sdr or ham radio
[15:18] <Laurenceb__> to be fair it should be built into fldigi
[15:18] <adamgreig> but it's no different to the bit recovery that dl-fldigi does already?
[15:18] <Laurenceb__> rtty is silly
[15:18] <Laurenceb__> no
[15:18] <Laurenceb__> rtty has start and stop bits
[15:18] <adamgreig> oh, because not rs232 framing?
[15:19] <Laurenceb__> yes
[15:19] <adamgreig> ok, but you could presumably send those bits to the si chip
[15:19] <Laurenceb__> lol
[15:19] <mattbrejza> i do have a reciever that can do this (java though)
[15:19] <adamgreig> if you so wanted
[15:19] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: your receiver still uses rs-232 doesn't it?
[15:19] <Laurenceb__> yeah thats how i do Tx atm
[15:19] <Laurenceb__> from my silabs
[15:19] <mattbrejza> nope
[15:19] <mattbrejza> well it can
[15:19] <adamgreig> eroomde: I think the idea for mattbrejza and others is to make something that doesn't need an sdr or ham radio
[15:19] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: got that photo of your little rx box around?
[15:19] <mattbrejza> https://twitter.com/SUSpaceflight/status/577463606410944513
[15:20] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: I guess you do bit recovery anyway and then can just decode rs232 off it
[15:20] <eroomde> adamgreig, yes but it might aswell work for both
[15:20] <eroomde> if you can squeeze it into 3kHz
[15:20] <Laurenceb__> https://github.com/Laurenceb/Tx_board/blob/master/Silabs/Hardware.jpg
[15:20] <adamgreig> to work for both we have to be able to receive and demod it with something like that Si chip (or otherwise) though
[15:20] <Laurenceb__> usb port == terminal interface
[15:20] <eroomde> if this just can't be done without 20kHz then fair enough but i'm not sure that's at all true
[15:21] <adamgreig> I'm sure you can get a reasonable data rate in 3kHz
[15:21] <Laurenceb__> yup
[15:21] <adamgreig> but the only reason to do that is to fit inside a ham audio passband?
[15:21] <Laurenceb__> im doing 200bps in 450hz
[15:21] <eroomde> adamgreig, yes
[15:22] <adamgreig> not sure if the ham passband requirement is part of being suitably open or just a holdover from the old ways
[15:22] <adamgreig> right now I can't imagine anyone getting into hab would even consider buying a ham radio
[15:22] <adamgreig> an airspy or an rtl-sdr or a fcd++ or a hackrf does a much easier, smaller, cheaper, low-power, simpler, better job
[15:22] <eroomde> and 3kHz wide audio is well within the reach of doing DSP on a modest micro if you want portable receivers
[15:22] <mattbrejza> well you could have a format that takes a paramter that defines its bandwidth
[15:23] <adamgreig> true, low bandwidth does make for easier DSP
[15:23] <adamgreig> though when 'modest micro' can include an stm32f103 or even f4, you could probably pull off 20kHz too :p
[15:23] <eroomde> sure
[15:23] <Laurenceb__> actually
[15:23] <mattbrejza> although where will the micro get the baseband rf from?
[15:23] <Laurenceb__> theres the 805.14 spec
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> It's crazy what you can get for a tenner these days.
[15:24] <adamgreig> so I think that at high SNR MFSK is good and at low SNR 2FSK is good, for the same bandwidth and power?
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> 80MHz ADC on your micro
[15:24] <eroomde> adamgreig, do you have any data on the ratio of packets sent to ukhas that come from a conventional ham rig vs an sdr?
[15:24] <eroomde> e.g. do people still fill in the rig section on dlfldigi?
[15:24] <Laurenceb__> i mean 802.15.4
[15:25] <Laurenceb__> i mean 802.15.4g
[15:25] <Laurenceb__> got there in the end
[15:25] <mattbrejza> gj
[15:25] <Laurenceb__> thats a spec for 2FSK on sub ghz
[15:25] <Laurenceb__> all the transceivers are implementing it
[15:26] <Laurenceb__> well - part of the spec is for the 2FSK physical layer
[15:26] <mattbrejza> is there a tldr for 802.15.4g?
[15:26] <Laurenceb__> so arguably 2FSK packets from silabs etc is a standard
[15:26] <Laurenceb__> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.15#PHY_Amendment_for_Smart_Utility_Network_.284g.29
[15:27] <Laurenceb__> holy buzzword bingo
[15:27] <mattbrejza> yea thats not useful
[15:27] <Laurenceb__> tl;dr : they added simple 2FSK + CRC + MAC packet format for low cost transceivers
[15:28] <mattbrejza> its still just 4.8kb/s fsk though
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[15:29] <adamgreig> eroomde: in theory we do still have the 'radio' field from fldigi
[15:29] <adamgreig> so it's possible one could go through and get an idea of sdr vs ham
[15:32] <eroomde> j0nnymac, do you know AndySC? I think he's a colleague of yours
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[15:40] <Laurenceb__> once we have agreed on a radio protocol, we can move onto the next challenge
[15:40] <Laurenceb__> a UKHAS cubesat :P
[15:43] <lz1dev> http://i.imgur.com/zczsJJ0.gif
[15:43] <Laurenceb__> lol
[15:44] <lz1dev> https://youtu.be/PGNiXGX2nLU?t=58
[15:44] <Laurenceb__> im wondering what the rules would be on running an "OSCAR" sat with commercial service
[15:45] <Laurenceb__> so the ecologists could use it too
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[16:18] <j0nnymac> hey buddy
[16:19] <j0nnymac> yes i do know him
[16:19] <j0nnymac> he works in the Lab - not too far away actually
[16:19] <j0nnymac> although he is quite important :)
[16:19] <Laurenceb__> are you guys in the uk?
[16:19] <j0nnymac> yep - im down in winchester
[16:19] <Laurenceb__> ah i didnt realise
[16:20] <j0nnymac> well - im in the UK at least :)
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[16:47] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[16:49] <number10> evening Lunar_Lander
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[16:59] <SpeedEvil> https://twitter.com/RaanKor/status/593455700866629632/photo/1
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[18:24] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KG5EHQ - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KG5EHQ
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[18:39] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ZR6LJK_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ZR6LJK_chase
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[19:48] <Babs_> so if anyone is round from this morning's discussion, its not the step up regulator that is eating up the power
[19:50] <Babs_> 1.7v, draws 70 ish milliamps, 3.3v draws 30 ish milliamps
[19:51] <Babs_> no way of disconnecting the ublox and the atmega328 as they are all sodered in now
[19:53] <Laurenceb> can you hold either of them in reset?
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[19:54] <Babs_> they are all smd soldered in, so other than holding wires against the pins and risking shorting little chance i think
[19:54] <Ian_> Dremel time?
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[19:55] <Babs_> here is the schematic in case there are any obvious things wrong http://imgur.com/YNP2zXO
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[20:08] <Laurenceb> http://www.theguardian.com/science/2000/feb/24/spaceexploration.internationalnews1
[20:08] <Laurenceb> lol the amendment
[20:11] <edmoore> are the LEDs on Babs?
[20:12] <edmoore> amusing quote from my new housemate: 'I hate writing CVs... I'm so crapping modest'
[20:13] <Laurenceb> haha
[20:13] <Laurenceb> I have to attend a "CV improvement and grant funding competition day event"
[20:13] <Laurenceb> with work next week, WTF
[20:13] <Babs_> i have them set up but not powered eroomde
[20:14] <Babs_> as in they are not lit
[20:14] <edmoore> hmm
[20:14] <edmoore> so it really could be the avr
[20:14] <edmoore> can you command the ublox to power down and see if that makes an appreciable diff?
[20:14] <Babs_> good idea. will try it now.
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[20:16] <edmoore> greetings polymorf
[20:17] <Upu> evening
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[20:26] <Babs_> eroomde - its the gps
[20:27] <Babs_> with it turned off the whole thing is pulling 14mA at 1.8v
[20:27] <Laurenceb> erm isnt that normal
[20:27] <Laurenceb> ~14mA for ublox
[20:28] <edmoore> no Laurenceb context
[20:28] <Babs_> no, 14 mA at 1.8v with the ublox off, 60 mA at 1.8v with it on
[20:28] <edmoore> Babs_, coolio
[20:28] <Laurenceb> oh i see
[20:28] <edmoore> so that sounds like the bit to attack
[20:28] <Laurenceb> i confused
[20:29] <edmoore> it uses lots of current during aquisition but once locked it should drop right down with the right low power mode
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[20:40] <Babs_> there's not really a lot of difference in current consumption whether the GPS has a lock or not
[20:41] <Babs_> i used https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ublox_psm to put it into cyclic mode
[20:42] <Babs_> although that page says the draw in cyclic mode is 14-15mA at 3.3v
[20:43] <Babs_> which would be 30ma ish at 1.8v
[20:43] <Babs_> and it looks as if i am drawiing 45mA, although that is through a regulator operating at about 75%
[20:44] <Babs_> so on that basis is 60mA at 1.8V reasonable then?
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[20:55] <mfa298> low altitude problems http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-32513066
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[20:57] <craag> Babs_: Which version of the ublox MAX do you have?
[20:58] <craag> 7/8 in cyclic should be ~5mA I believe
[21:02] <Babs_> m8c
[21:02] <Babs_> ping Upu
[21:02] <Upu> o6
[21:03] <Upu> err
[21:03] <Upu> o7
[21:04] <Babs_> hey upu - on my tracker I am pulling 15mA on the atmega (could be improved but not way out of whack) at 1.8V stepped up to 3.3V
[21:04] <Babs_> but 45mA when the M8c is connected and locked at 1.8V stepped up to 3.3V
[21:05] <Babs_> on the basis of https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ublox_psm that doesn't look massively unreasonable, but does it fit with your experience?
[21:10] <Upu> single cell AA -> 3.3V ?
[21:15] <Babs_> AAA > 3.3v
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[21:32] <Upu> sorry back
[21:33] <Upu> 45mA with everything going ?
[21:33] <Babs_> hey upu
[21:33] <Upu> radio gps and ยตC ?
[21:33] <Babs_> i can get it down to 50mA with just the gps and the atmega
[21:33] <Babs_> 50mA at 1.8V
[21:33] <Upu> probably about right, bypass the stepup
[21:33] <Upu> power it from a bench @ 3.3V and note the current
[21:35] <Babs_> 30mA at 3.3v
[21:35] <Upu> sounds a little high
[21:35] <Upu> with radio on ?
[21:35] <Babs_> thats not under lock, the 30mA
[21:35] <Babs_> so still acquiring
[21:35] <Upu> oh ok
[21:36] <Upu> probably about rightr then
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[21:36] <Babs_> the transmitter pulls about 60mA at 1.8v
[21:36] <Babs_> additional
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[21:39] <Upu> still 20 hours
[21:42] <Babs_> i can get about 16 off an AAA if i transmit once a minute
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[21:47] <tweetBot> @MX5AKA: #AmateurRadio Exam session planned for #UKHAS Conference London Sat Aug 22 https://t.co/E0JwHmibuo #hamradio #hamr
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[22:16] <Laurenceb> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/95173281/spaceflight-fast-and-affordable-access-to-sub-orbi
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[00:00] --- Thu Apr 30 2015