highaltitude.log.20150424

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[00:22] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Ilmapall - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Ilmapall
[00:23] <Jorma> Yeah, im finally seeing my baloon at tracker !
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[00:26] <Jorma> Is my payload now ready to be sent to approval?
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[00:28] <Jorma> How can I send my payload configure to be approved by the IRC ?
[00:34] <lz1dev> once you have the payload doc ready, and it's parsing correctly (showing on the map)
[00:35] <lz1dev> you make a flight doc, where you set the details for when you are launching
[00:36] <lz1dev> once you make that, join in #habhub by typing /join #habhub and tell us the id of your flight doc
[00:39] <Jorma> It will automatically go to some "list" where then someone can look it over and approve, if no further errors are found?
[00:39] <lz1dev> someone will manually approve it if it looks correct :)
[00:40] <Jorma> These are some words I've beel looking forward to see
[00:40] <lz1dev> we are living people behind computers
[00:40] <lz1dev> most of us
[00:41] <lz1dev> others are not so fortunate
[00:41] <Jorma> And it was my first time setting up something like this, takes some time
[00:41] <lz1dev> right SpacenearUS ?
[00:41] <Jorma> Thanks for the help !
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[01:00] <KM4FSW> Good morning Upu: do you have an idea when those new adsb preamps will be for sale?
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[01:22] <Ian_> KMrFSW - Upu is fast asleep at the moment, but check out the last two items on this page http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=72_73
[01:24] <Ian_> You have to be happy now ;) I think that monitoring ADSB with an RTL dongle, Raspberry Pi and a small screen is a great idea. Just don't get the hostess with the mostest tell the Jockey that he has made a wrong turn.
[01:25] <Ian_> Make that the last item on that page . . .
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[01:32] <Ian_> KM4FSW ^ ^ ^
[01:33] <KM4FSW> haha ok Ian, thanks so much
[01:34] <KM4FSW> i think this is the old one still
[01:34] <KM4FSW> he is about to make new ones
[01:39] <Ian_> Ah, I didn't realise that there was a new version in the mill. Current UK time is just after 0230. Upu is normally up and about around 0800. Your morning will get him in his early afternoon.
[01:44] <KM4FSW> ahh ok thanks Ian, where are you located at then?
[01:45] <KM4FSW> honkey kong here
[01:46] <Ian_> UK, West Midlands - should be asleep :)
[01:46] <Ian_> I only got as far as Singapore and Penang. Went to school in Kuala Lumpur
[01:47] <Ian_> QRA G0PAI
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[01:52] <dcbertelsen> Hello to all out there.
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[01:55] <Ian_> Hello dcbertelsen - Just about to go to bed. Located UK, where are you?
[01:56] <dcbertelsen> US; just evening here.
[01:57] <Ian_> I guess your morning and afternoon is probably the best time for contacting the UK contingent, but there are a fair few US members if there is activity to pique their interest.
[01:58] <dcbertelsen> There have been a few times I can get on earlier in the day. It seems that I generally answer more questions than I ask; though that is not a bad thing.
[01:59] <dcbertelsen> My big curiosity involves getting an APRS callsign set up for monitoring. Not too much of a concern to most on your side of the Atlantic.
[02:02] <Ian_> There was a flight yesterday/today of 42.896m by UX5 and a flight of 40.082m by PISKY. Lovely bright day for it too.
[02:04] <Ian_> I'm not APRS savvy, at the moment, but the B series of balloons last year changed the perception and UKHAS is now global feeding in APRS balloon data as necessary to support the community.
[02:05] <dcbertelsen> I know they do import from the APRS feeds, but there isn't any documentation regarding setup beyond "contact via IRC" from what I can see. I've even downloaded the source code but haven
[02:06] <dcbertelsen> 't had time to digest it.
[02:07] <dcbertelsen> I would like to see the US balloonists begin a 70cm network. Antennas can be a lot smaller and you can push more data.
[02:07] <Ian_> Upu, MFA295, Craag, edmoore and others will talk you through it if you hit their window
[02:08] <dcbertelsen> Thanks, I might be able to get on tomorrow afternoon. I teach secondary science and don't have a lot of free time during your evening hours.
[02:08] <Ian_> I suppose you can use 70cm with a licence. I think that a lot here either came up via HAB and obtained Ham licences or are Hams looking for more to do.
[02:10] <dcbertelsen> Same with the APRS frequencies in the US; 900MHz or 2.4GHz would be about the only license-free spectrum. I come from a background of tracking high power rockets on 70cm and 2m. Our school has launched three balloons and I've got a lot of envelopes ready for inflation. ;-)
[02:10] <Ian_> It seems that most of the suspects mentioned operate during the day, whilst earning their crust. Upu has a large stake in the enterprise as a HAB ambassador
[02:11] <Ian_> edmoore is a rocket man
[02:12] <dcbertelsen> Sounds like we'll get along well. Thanks for the heads up, Ian; I'll let you turn in for the night. --Doug
[02:14] <Ian_> Many thanks. They really are a helpful bunch. I've seen edmoore tutoring kids on here - programming out loud - and it's painful, but they get the code working bit by bit and next you know they are back making boards for their own trackers
[02:14] <Ian_> He must have the patience of Job . . . Gnite
[02:15] <dcbertelsen> LOL.
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[06:13] <edmoore> morning habaneros
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[08:23] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03GarysCar_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=GarysCar_chase
[08:23] <sq5kvs> HI all
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[08:28] <sq5kvs> So, how to say, guys..
[08:28] <sq5kvs> Whozz UP ? :)
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[08:29] <Geoff-G8DHE> !flights
[08:29] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE: Current flights: 03ANU 9 10(ce0d), 03MM4 10(3063)
[08:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> !flight mm4
[08:30] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE: Flight 10(3063): 03MM4 10(1 payload) - Launch date 03Tomorrow at 09:00 from 03Cambridgeshire, UK 10(52.2511,-0.0927)
[08:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> Nothing up today!
[08:32] <fsphil> hab day of rest
[08:44] <x-f> there should be a launch from Estonia in three hours, not sure why their flight doc is not approved
[08:51] <day> these chasecars. do they follow the balloon from the start to the landing?
[08:52] <sq5kvs> hi x-f
[08:55] <christopherlee> Morning, i'm looking to find a "cheap" radio/scanner to help me track, have used a usb tv dongle in past but getting things up and running on a mac can be stressful.
[08:57] <x-f> hi, sq5kvs
[09:01] <fsphil> christopherlee: I quite like the FT-790, quite hard to get these days though
[09:01] <christopherlee> yeah have looked for some of the units mentioned on ukhas on ebay
[09:02] <christopherlee> Just got very stressed trying to track some flights recently and with a 2nd flight planned for this year decided it time to simplify things
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[09:12] <edmoore> the ft-790 is a really fabulous radio
[09:12] <edmoore> 70cm only
[09:12] <edmoore> but that's fine if this is for hab work
[09:13] <edmoore> as sensitive as any high-end ham radio rig you can buy today
[09:13] <edmoore> and a veteran of many hab flights
[09:13] <edmoore> it more or less was responsible for the majority of receiving early ukhas flights
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[09:15] <fsphil> I lent mine to a team recently. they didn't use it
[09:15] <mattbrejza> did they recover with gsm in the end
[09:15] <mattbrejza> ?
[09:15] <fsphil> yea
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[09:17] <christopherlee> I never liked the idea of just relying on GSM
[09:17] <christopherlee> We used both but just gsm as a backup
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[09:19] <fsphil> heh, same question on the mailing list
[09:21] <edmoore> i answered
[09:21] <edmoore> a helpful answer to cancel out my last email
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[09:26] <edmoore> someone called the office wanting to speak to the person who purchases our 'workplace product solutions'
[09:26] <edmoore> it took more negotiating than i'd like to decipher exactly what problems the solutions she had in mind were solving
[09:27] <edmoore> eventually, cleaning materials and printer paper
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[09:27] <christopherlee> lol
[09:28] <christopherlee> Any one had experience of a Yupiteru MVT-7100? Its only a receiver but i wont ever be transmitting any way.
[09:29] <edmoore> i've seen some of them in the wild
[09:29] <edmoore> sometimes the scanners are a bit more deaf than other kinds of ham rig
[09:29] <edmoore> but you should still get on alright with it, and you can get a habamp if you want
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[09:31] <christopherlee> cool
[09:35] <christopherlee> is a habamp a lna?
[09:36] <edmoore> yep
[09:36] <edmoore> so any lna will do
[09:36] <edmoore> it has a filter too
[09:36] <edmoore> but yes, if you have an LNA kicking around or a design for one on the net or whatever, go for it
[09:36] <christopherlee> cool, i have one running on sdr already.
[09:36] <edmoore> fun and dandy
[09:37] <christopherlee> Sounds like i can switch away from SDR for under £100 which will be nice.
[09:38] <christopherlee> then a matter of understanding the receiver interface :-)
[09:38] <edmoore> :)
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[09:43] <mattbrejza> i think the icom r10 is supposed to be better btw
[09:43] <christopherlee> ok thanks
[09:45] <edmoore> if you're less familiar with the ham world, Icom and Yeasu are the two big brands
[09:45] <edmoore> who (in theory) make really good quality stuff
[09:45] <edmoore> perhaps like HP(now agilent/keysight) and Tektronix are in the world of electronics test equipment
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[09:46] <christopherlee> :-)
[09:47] <li4m0> There's a yupiteru 7100 on ebay now but it's the worst listing ever
[09:47] <li4m0> http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/251923536696?
[09:47] <li4m0> "Radio scanner" great pictures
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[09:47] <christopherlee> i love the quality of some photos... its like how can you actually take a photo that bad
[09:48] <edmoore> anything is possible with a tub of vaseline
[09:48] <li4m0> At least I think it's a 7100!
[09:48] <lz1dev> edmoore: define anything
[09:49] <edmoore> exceeding the shannon limit
[09:49] <edmoore> finding a statsh of really good quality lab-grade SMA cables on ebay for not much money
[09:50] <edmoore> or a stash of sma-bnc-N adaptors and gender-benders for my lab
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[09:55] <Vaizki> christopherlee, when fencing stolen property you don't want the original owner to recognize the loot? ;)
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[09:56] <christopherlee> Vaizki: your probably right
[10:00] <Vaizki> ok this is a noob question.. but why do we need to have SSB capability in a (non-sdr) receiver for rtty tracking and why was this chosen as the "HAB way"?
[10:01] <Vaizki> maybe not formulating my Q very well here but just wondering why SSB modulation
[10:02] <edmoore> no it's a fine question
[10:02] <edmoore> really SSB is the simplest possible way to do it
[10:02] <Vaizki> on transmitter side having worked with ntx2b yes I can see that with those bits it's dead simple
[10:03] <edmoore> that's basically it
[10:03] <Vaizki> receiver of course becomes a lot more complex than with AM modulation for example
[10:03] <mattbrejza> SSB is like 'raw' demodulation which takes some spectrum at RF and moves it down to AF
[10:03] <edmoore> and the fact that for your 10mW you can get a lot more energy per information symbol than if you were to modulate it as FM
[10:03] <edmoore> i.e. more range
[10:03] <edmoore> AM has utterly crappy bit error rates
[10:04] <Vaizki> hmm right
[10:04] <Vaizki> mattbrejza, AF?
[10:04] <edmoore> audio freq
[10:04] <Vaizki> ah.
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[10:04] Action: christopherlee head explodes
[10:04] <fsphil> AM is probably the most inefficient modulation?
[10:05] <edmoore> yeah
[10:05] <Vaizki> the 10mW thing also makes sense to me now that you said it
[10:05] <edmoore> it's basically a good compromise of efficient use of power and simple implementation at the transmitter/payload end
[10:06] <edmoore> but yes it does rule out a lot of small handhelds
[10:06] <Vaizki> I have merely scratched the surface of RF but I need to look up how SSB receiving even works
[10:06] <Vaizki> or let's say demodulation
[10:07] <mattbrejza> you can transmit AFSK and recieve on a FM reciever but its on hte limit if youre in a chasecar
[10:07] <Vaizki> I guess you use a LO/VFO to mix it down to an IF just like normal but what then
[10:07] <mattbrejza> well thats kinda what ssb does, just your IF is about 1Hz
[10:07] <mattbrejza> *1kHz
[10:07] <edmoore> ssb is actually the simplest
[10:08] <edmoore> mathematically
[10:08] <edmoore> it's just multiplying two sine waves together
[10:08] <mattbrejza> then fldigi takes the IF from the ssb reciever and demodulates to bits
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[10:08] <LunarWork> hello
[10:08] <Vaizki> I guess it would be much easier to build a fldigi compatible SSB receiver than it is to make a "real" SSB voice handheld
[10:09] <lz1dev> edmoore: multiplying?
[10:09] <edmoore> yeah
[10:09] <Vaizki> because I'm thinking the real SSB receiver has to somehow lock on the right "shift" to make sure the audio frequencies come out unshifted
[10:09] <ibanezmatt13_> I must say, I'm struggling understanding this stuff in the advanced book
[10:09] <edmoore> 'mixing' is just multiplaying
[10:09] <edmoore> multiplying*
[10:10] <lz1dev> yeah
[10:10] <Vaizki> and fldigi doesn't care if you transmit at 1kHz but it comes out the other end at 2.7kHz
[10:10] <Vaizki> as long as it fits in the audio freq range
[10:10] <edmoore> and it works the same going both 'up' and 'down'
[10:10] <edmoore> it's also mathematically the same thing as aliasing
[10:10] <Vaizki> so the tuning for SSB in voice comms must be pretty complex compared to AM/FM
[10:11] <Vaizki> even though the demod is dead simple
[10:11] <Vaizki> and the tuning/shifting whatever bit makes the receivers more expensive?
[10:11] <mattbrejza> a real ssb reciever needs image rejection filtering
[10:12] <mattbrejza> also the reason they tend to be more expensive is its not such a common thing, so only the fancy ones have it
[10:12] <mattbrejza> also the cheap ones have a all in one FM demod IC rather than a discrete signal path
[10:12] <Vaizki> the image rejection is an adjustable LPF or something more complex?
[10:13] <mattbrejza> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superheterodyne_receiver#Design_and_principle_of_operation
[10:13] <mattbrejza> the filter is fixed
[10:14] <mattbrejza> you have to do the image rejection at a high(ish) IF as if you do it at the AF end the image will overlap the signal
[10:15] <Vaizki> ah. and that image is what pops up at the center of rtl-sdr ffts? :)
[10:16] <Vaizki> well I have to read up on that wikipedia page.. this stuff is interesting but hard to grasp without the theoretical background
[10:16] <Vaizki> at least at 40+ years of age it seems so ;)
[10:16] <edmoore> wikipedia can be unhelpful
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[10:16] <mattbrejza> the spike in the centre of sdr ffts is the DC component
[10:16] <edmoore> this is probably the place to start http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_sampling_theorem
[10:17] <mattbrejza> if you have a strong signal on a sdr fft you might notice that there is a much weaker one mirrored around the centre
[10:17] <mattbrejza> although newer ones dont have that
[10:17] <mattbrejza> (the elonics ones do)
[10:17] <Vaizki> yea broadcast FM stations especially
[10:21] <mattbrejza> those tuners rely on being able to reject the image as they output a complex signal (IQ), while the handhelds filter it away at an IF with a sharp crystal filter
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[10:21] <j0nnymac> hi there
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[10:22] <Vaizki> mattbrejza, yea well I got some GSM test sets from auction and they seem to use 3-4 different IFs in succession with filtering etc happening at every stage
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[10:22] <mattbrejza> hey j0nnymac
[10:22] <Vaizki> I guess it is necessary to end up at a common IF from a wide bandwith and still reject images
[10:23] <j0nnymac> i wonder if I might ask for some (i suspect a LOT) of advice....
[10:23] <Vaizki> we wonder why people ask if they can ask :)
[10:23] <j0nnymac> ha!!! :)
[10:23] <mattbrejza> Vaizki: looking at service manuals for things like the icom7000 can be educational
[10:23] <mattbrejza> theyre often very well documented as to how they work
[10:24] <russss> this is a properly good DSP introduction, I just remembered it http://jackschaedler.github.io/circles-sines-signals/index.html
[10:24] <Vaizki> right, well mostly I just want things to work but it seems like RF is something I might dip a little deeper into
[10:26] <Vaizki> especially since I have ended up with a boatload of RF test equipment :)
[10:26] <j0nnymac> So, i have no experience in HAB at all and im looking to kick of a HAB project. Ive been hugely fortunate that ive been able to correspond with the really awesome Southampton University High Alititude club and they have been massively helpful. And they have been kind enough to give me direction on where and how to go about a launch and given me a real taster to find out more...
[10:26] <j0nnymac> is it ok if i throw some questions at the community? disclaimer: these may be dumb questions
[10:27] <edmoore> Vaizki, oh nice
[10:27] <edmoore> can i have some of your test equipment?
[10:27] <edmoore> j0nnymac, the first rule of IRC is to not ask-to-ask
[10:27] <edmoore> but to just ask
[10:27] <edmoore> so just ask
[10:27] <edmoore> if people want to answer they will
[10:27] <j0nnymac> okay - here goes -
[10:28] <Vaizki> edmoore, if I had gotten it for free yes sure.. but I will want to recover my costs by offloading the bits I don't need for cash :(
[10:29] <j0nnymac> what id like to do is to launch a balloon, with a payload of <1kg. in the payload i will have sensors measuring altitude, light, temp, gps etc - and in realtime transmitting them to 'ground control' (whatever that turns out to be)
[10:29] <j0nnymac> and take that data (in real-time) and process it - hopefully to do something fun and engaging with it
[10:29] <j0nnymac> the first question is - how do i download in realtime sensor data?
[10:29] <j0nnymac> and images?
[10:30] <j0nnymac> oooh Hey Matt!!!
[10:30] <j0nnymac> i saw your name - but didnt put 2+2 together :)
[10:31] <Vaizki> I think a flying printer spewing leaflets with data might be one option
[10:31] <mattbrejza> :D
[10:31] <Vaizki> another one would be a radio transmitter :)
[10:31] <j0nnymac> phew!
[10:31] <mattbrejza> Vaizki: it would need a mechanism to fold them into paper planes
[10:31] <christopherlee> A good start is http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=1732
[10:31] <j0nnymac> i was almost committed to a Darth Vader 'nnoooooooooo.....!'
[10:32] <j0nnymac> epic!
[10:32] <j0nnymac> let me snaffle that
[10:32] <christopherlee> I did something similar last year and have to admit i went with the route of the pi in the sky board.
[10:32] <j0nnymac> really?
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[10:33] <j0nnymac> thats awesome to know - i want to go down the pi route as well. mainly as i have a little more familiarity with the tech, but also its got a nice USB port
[10:34] <Vaizki> not many people call the pi usb nice but yes it has one :)
[10:34] <j0nnymac> also - radios look expensive
[10:34] <Vaizki> not that you'd really want to put anything on the USB if running off batteries
[10:34] <christopherlee> Might be worth looking at this http://www.pi-in-the-sky.com. it can simplify a fair bit of the tech. Still need a good understanding of what your doing and whats going on.
[10:35] <mattbrejza> the only useful usb thing i can think of is a webcam
[10:35] <mattbrejza> but the picam does a equally good job
[10:35] <DutchMillbt> Morning (or not) what kind of Helium is the best for HAB . 4.6 . 5.0 or 6.0 ?
[10:35] <j0nnymac> picam ? does that do video as well as stills?
[10:35] <mattbrejza> yea it does both
[10:35] <j0nnymac> genius!
[10:36] <j0nnymac> ill add that to the shopping list
[10:36] <mattbrejza> (not at the same time)
[10:36] <j0nnymac> :)
[10:36] <christopherlee> With the latest boards the guys have done its easier to access other pin outs for stuff.
[10:36] <Vaizki> and if you want a long running hd video just put a separate self contained camera on board
[10:36] <edmoore> DutchMillbt, what are the units there in those numbers?
[10:37] <j0nnymac> i think we have a few rpi's knocking about to play with - so i guess the main limitation is weight, power and possibly heat generated
[10:37] <Vaizki> edmoore, 4.6 = 99.996 (four nines and a six)
[10:37] <edmoore> ah right
[10:37] <Vaizki> so 6.0 is 99.9999990
[10:37] <edmoore> i should probably know that
[10:37] <Vaizki> oops 99.99990 :)
[10:37] <Vaizki> moar coffee
[10:38] <mattbrejza> the orignal pis had a linear regulator which was the main heat source, the A+,B+ etc are better as they have a smps instead
[10:38] <j0nnymac> brilliant! got some of those i think
[10:38] <edmoore> DutchMillbt, if 4.6 is cheapest probably go with that
[10:38] <mattbrejza> and you can just put 3xAA into their 5V in (providing you dont want anything off USB that is acutally 5V)
[10:39] <Vaizki> just say no to usb
[10:39] <mattbrejza> DutchMillbt: we've had good results with the cheap 'balloon gas' stuff, it just comes down to £££ (or ¬¬¬)
[10:39] <DutchMillbt> edmoore oke thankz http://www.linde-gas.nl/nl/products_and_supply/industrial_gases/helium/index.html
[10:39] <j0nnymac> in terms of radio recievers id like to be able to process the telemetry as it comes in - so is there anything out there that will let me feed the telemetry transmitted into a laptop/pc?
[10:40] <edmoore> j0nnymac, all of them
[10:40] <j0nnymac> yeah!!
[10:40] <Vaizki> j0nnymac, dl-fldigi is your friend. it takes an audio signal and demodulates the telemetry from it
[10:40] <mattbrejza> if you use fldigi to decode then it can be pulled off a local tcp port
[10:40] <DutchMillbt> mattbrejza as always ;-)
[10:40] <amell> no launches today. shame
[10:40] <Laurenceb_> the best Helium is Hydrogen
[10:40] <Vaizki> the audio signal can come from a real radio receiver or from cheap sdr stick
[10:41] <Vaizki> also dl-fldigi uploads it to habhub which will update your landing prediction continuously based on weather data
[10:41] <j0nnymac> thanks! seen a lot of variation in price - but also that the dongles may not be all that awesome - any recommendations for a limited budget
[10:41] <Vaizki> so it's really an all-in-one package
[10:41] <j0nnymac> really??
[10:41] <j0nnymac> wow
[10:41] <amell> Hydrogen != Helium
[10:42] <j0nnymac> <looking up dl-fldigi>
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[10:43] <christopherlee> Also with other listeners they can help receiver packets that you might miss. I was amazed how well it was all bolted together.
[10:43] <DutchMillbt> Laurence Yep i know ... we are 'feeding' the universe with this hobby (gone is gone)
[10:43] <Vaizki> well some other hobbies and industries also use a "bit" more helium
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[10:45] <mattbrejza> the better dongle is the funcube pro+ (fcd++) but its about the same price as a handheld off ebay (such as the r10)
[10:45] <j0nnymac> aah ok dl-fldigi processes the radio signal coming in - cool
[10:45] <mattbrejza> you can make a crappy dongle into a better dongle with a 'habamp' (filter + amp), but in the end that isnt much cheaper
[10:47] <Vaizki> CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. -- NASA has selected five companies to provide liquid and gaseous helium for 17 agency locations, including centers and facilities.
[10:47] <Vaizki> This new fixed-price requirements contract with economic price adjustment is for the acquisition of approximately 12.5 million liters of liquid helium and 235.7 million standard cubic feet of gaseous helium during a five-year period of performance starting Oct. 1. (2009)
[10:47] <Vaizki> that's a bit of helium
[10:49] <Vaizki> and afaik NASA still doesn't recover helium even from processes where it would be very very easy
[10:49] <DutchMillbt> Yep Vaizki it is
[10:50] <mattbrejza> whats that in terms of olympic swimming pools?
[10:50] <Vaizki> :D
[10:51] <Vaizki> american units of measurement
[10:51] <Vaizki> it's not the imperial system, it's the sports arena system
[10:51] <christopherlee> :-)
[10:53] <mattbrejza> the answer is 5 btw
[10:53] <mattbrejza> (for the LHe)
[10:54] <Vaizki> for area they have football (or armunball) fields, volume is swimming pools, height is empire state buildings, weight is school buses etc
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[10:55] <j0nnymac> ok - looked up the funcube pro+ is that a pretty decent way forward for receiving data?
[10:56] <mattbrejza> and 700k large BOC cylinders of He gas
[10:56] <j0nnymac> or recommended - it doesnt look to expensive which is nice
[10:57] <mattbrejza> cant say ive personally used one, others have done better comparisons
[10:57] <Vaizki> well He is so silly cheap for nasa that it makes no economic sense to recover it but they still should
[10:57] <edmoore> j0nnymac, yes, lots of people report good experiences with the funcube pro+
[10:57] <j0nnymac> excellent
[10:57] <j0nnymac> another for the shopping list
[10:57] <mattbrejza> what do they even use it for? getting rid of oxygen in fuel areas?
[10:58] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> You should also consider the Airspy http://airspy.com/ very similar to FCD Pro in someways but also wider coverage if its needed
[10:58] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03IK2TGW_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=IK2TGW_chase
[10:58] <sq5kvs> so
[10:58] <sq5kvs> I'm back :D
[10:58] <sq5kvs> http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kxzbzvHFlJ1qzxzwwo1_500.jpg
[10:58] <sq5kvs> but
[10:59] <sq5kvs> it's not tru
[10:59] <Vaizki> $3.8/liter for liquid helium
[10:59] <Vaizki> NASA price
[10:59] <Vaizki> can I get that too.. pleaase
[10:59] <sq5kvs> regarding the first and second part of this sentence
[11:00] <j0nnymac> cheers <looking>
[11:00] <sq5kvs> liquoid ?
[11:00] <mattbrejza> so your filling arragment would be the balloon attached to the top of the flask of LHe, and a camping stove below the flask?
[11:00] <Vaizki> no, I would forget hab and just screw around with THE COLDNESS all day every day
[11:00] <j0nnymac> in terms of practicalities for the launch
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[11:01] <j0nnymac> is it better to have your laptop with FCD / Airspy at the launchsite too? or is that ok at homebase? and how far away can home base be?
[11:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yiu need something onsite to make sure its working OK
[11:02] Action: russss looks into getting his box-o-SDRs onto the roof
[11:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> The rest of the system is "distributed" if in the UK many stations receiving and reporting back to the central servers Habhub
[11:02] <mattbrejza> j0nnymac: we have a separate radio at a 'homebase' in soton
[11:03] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> you then need a receiver when chasing to actually recover it as the range will reduce dramtically when its at ground level.
[11:03] <j0nnymac> ok - would cheap dongle suffice for that?
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[11:04] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yes, just need to package dongles well for mobile working so not too many leads flying around
[11:05] <mattbrejza> ot: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Apple+Watch+Teardown/40655
[11:05] <j0nnymac> sorry - dumb question... package the dongle?
[11:06] <mattbrejza> antenna + dongle + laptop + powerlead + inverter makes a right mess
[11:06] <j0nnymac> in my mind im seeing the dongle plugged into laptop
[11:06] <j0nnymac> aah yep - gotcha
[11:06] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> When your mobile you don't want the leads flying around being pulled snagged etc, it will break quickly
[11:06] <mattbrejza> +3g
[11:06] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> you will probbly want a low noise Amp and filter aka HABAmp as well
[11:07] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> so just a good idea to package it all together like this image
[11:07] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/HABAMP_and_DONGLE/
[11:07] <j0nnymac> sweet - thanks!
[11:08] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> I use that in a campervan so just the aerial lead and USB lead to laptop is all that is required
[11:08] <j0nnymac> ok - the more i find out - the more i realise i dont know :)
[11:08] <mattbrejza> is the habamp needed for a fcd++ though?
[11:08] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Not sure most people seem to have also got Airspy's now
[11:09] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> I've never used one dongles hen moved onto Airspy for the better dynamic range handling
[11:10] <j0nnymac> while i remember it - do you have to select a particular radio frequency - that identifies your specifc flight?
[11:11] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yes, we use the ISM band 434.05 to 434.795 MHz which is also within the amateur radio band 432-438MHz
[11:12] <j0nnymac> thanks!
[11:14] <j0nnymac> any recommendations for a good cheap launchsite dongle?
[11:14] <christopherlee> And dont underestimate any testing... everything is worth checking and running with a few times.
[11:14] <j0nnymac> for sure
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[11:15] <christopherlee> we used http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B009VBUYA0?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00
[11:15] <j0nnymac> we are looking to launch mid June - is that okay timewise ? we will have 7 students working full time on the project
[11:15] <christopherlee> for testing flight and mobile tracking in car
[11:16] <j0nnymac> nice thanks!
[11:16] <christopherlee> added in a lna and was fine.
[11:16] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Two months is possible but hard going
[11:16] <edmoore> launch once it's thoroughly tested
[11:16] <edmoore> that's the only launch criteria
[11:16] <j0nnymac> fair play
[11:16] <edmoore> untested payloads fail and get lost
[11:16] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> you have a LOT too learn, electronics, coding, radio etc.
[11:17] <edmoore> if you're buying everything off the shelf (like PITS) then 99% of the work is done for you and you can be done and ready in a few days
[11:17] <j0nnymac> really??
[11:17] <edmoore> but i would get the radio kit as early as possible and practice tracking other flights to get used to it
[11:17] <j0nnymac> these magical places exist?
[11:17] <edmoore> magical places?
[11:17] <j0nnymac> PITS?
[11:18] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> edmoore is a Rocket Scientist ;-)
[11:18] <j0nnymac> if it came as a package - that might save a lot of time and risk
[11:18] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yes it does but you don't learn as much
[11:18] <j0nnymac> gotcha...
[11:18] <edmoore> you won't learn even remotely as much
[11:18] <edmoore> for many years DIY was the only way
[11:18] <edmoore> everyone managed
[11:18] <christopherlee> PITS saves a lot of time but still worth understanding everything and testing... We found with 24hrs to go that the GPS tracker when called for location would reset the Pi. Had been fine till the last check.
[11:19] <edmoore> now there are things you can buy off the shelf people think 'oh well DIY must just be for advanced users and it's too risky for me'
[11:19] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> http://www.pi-in-the-sky.com/
[11:19] <edmoore> which is a shame as that's not true
[11:19] <edmoore> it ratchets the hobby one more step in the wrong direction
[11:19] <edmoore> but that's a tired rant of mine and i'm rather loosing the will to fight it
[11:19] <j0nnymac> totally understand
[11:20] <sq5kvs> edmoore: You are the rocket scientist? :D
[11:20] <christopherlee> Even so i used a PITS i would tend to agree edmoore. I thankfully can follow the code and hardware on board as well as having has a play with the radio module on an Arduino etc.
[11:21] <christopherlee> Its the Radio side of things i never been involved in
[11:21] <j0nnymac> at the moment im in two minds - giving our students a really challenging and cool project and fighting the rising tide of panic of giving them too much get onboard with
[11:21] <edmoore> sq5kvs, 'the' is quite a title
[11:21] <edmoore> ah well
[11:21] <edmoore> you are a teacher
[11:21] <edmoore> so
[11:21] <j0nnymac> no no ... hardly
[11:21] <edmoore> PITS solves the teacher problem really nicely
[11:21] <edmoore> you have a million calls on your time
[11:22] <edmoore> you want to do useful science with your students
[11:22] <edmoore> but without becoming a microcontroller expert just for one 'lesson'
[11:22] <edmoore> so PITS is perfect there
[11:22] <edmoore> school teachers are basically my big exception for objecting to off-the-shelf trackers
[11:22] <edmoore> i think they're perfect for that
[11:22] <j0nnymac> I work over in Hursley, and we want to give 7 students a really fun project
[11:23] <j0nnymac> i dont want to overload them
[11:23] <edmoore> you could give your students something like an arduino, a gps, an sd card logger, and some sensors
[11:23] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> In which case I would agree as well PITS is a good way forward.
[11:23] <j0nnymac> but then they are msc students
[11:23] <edmoore> and have them do their own datalogger, but you have PITS there as a known-good backup so if their stuff isn't ready you can still fly
[11:23] <mattbrejza> msc in what subject though?
[11:23] <j0nnymac> electronic and electrical engineering
[11:24] <edmoore> oh
[11:24] <j0nnymac> so it may be bread and butter to them -
[11:24] <mattbrejza> oh just get them to do the electronics themselves
[11:24] <edmoore> they should be able to do a tracker then :)
[11:24] <j0nnymac> yes :)
[11:24] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Should be, was rather thinking of college/school students!
[11:24] <edmoore> a lot of the ukhas way of doing things came from undergrads
[11:24] <sq5kvs> edmoore: hm? I didn't understand
[11:24] <edmoore> 1st and 2nd yr
[11:24] <edmoore> as a spare-time project
[11:25] <j0nnymac> ahh - these folks will be full time
[11:25] <j0nnymac> May -> mid June
[11:25] <mattbrejza> we wanted to fly a pi for the eclipse and had a week to do it, so 'borrowed' the pits software and hacked it to only send back photos of the sun
[11:25] <edmoore> they can manage it then i reckon
[11:25] <j0nnymac> brill!
[11:25] <mattbrejza> the electronics is pretty trivial rteally, just was assembled on protoboard
[11:25] <mattbrejza> three resistors and some wiring
[11:26] <sq5kvs> Ah, btw
[11:26] <j0nnymac> awesome!
[11:26] <j0nnymac> that makes me feel a lot better
[11:27] <j0nnymac> aaah Pie In The Sky :)
[11:28] <mattbrejza> the pits is more (but by no means completely) idiot proof as it has a regulator so you can run it off whatever
[11:28] <sq5kvs> I saw the manual how to use popular 70cm mudules to transmit RTTY (as I remember). But what about temperature stabilisation.. freq and shift especially will float
[11:28] <bradfirj> Anyone who has used the Si4060, do you actually use the FIFO, or just enable carrier wave and shift the frequency with the tuning commands?
[11:28] <edmoore> sq5kvs, yes that's me
[11:28] <russss> sq5kvs: insulate it a bit, then just deal with the drift
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[11:30] <sq5kvs> I thinking about some easy tcxo for this
[11:31] <sq5kvs> maybe it's too much effort
[11:31] <mattbrejza> the NTX2b modules have a tcxo
[11:33] <sq5kvs> nice
[11:34] <sq5kvs> "The primary frequency reference for the transmitter is a 26MHz VC-TCXO. "
[11:34] <sq5kvs> :)
[11:34] <sq5kvs> standard ntx2 hasn't
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[11:35] <j0nnymac> Folks - im disappearing for coffee - just wanted to say a massive thank you for your guidance
[11:37] <j0nnymac> btw
[11:37] PB0AHX-Herman (535426fa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.84.38.250) joined #highaltitude.
[11:37] <PB0AHX-Herman> !flights
[11:37] <SpacenearUS> 03PB0AHX-Herman: Current flights: 03ANU 9 10(ce0d), 03MM4 10(3063)
[11:38] <j0nnymac> folks anyone around in Hampshire that would like to give a talk to the students about HAB and the things they need to consider?
[11:38] <j0nnymac> over in Hursley?
[11:39] <j0nnymac> :)
[11:40] <j0nnymac> if you do - ping me on twitter @j0nnymac
[11:40] <j0nnymac> or jon_mcnam@uk.ibm.com
[11:40] <j0nnymac> cheers!
[11:43] <mattbrejza> np j0nnymac , see you later
[11:45] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03Ilmapall after 0311 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Ilmapall
[11:49] <sq5kvs> x-f: What about your balloon?
[11:50] <x-f> which balloon?
[11:50] <sq5kvs> ah sorry, estonian
[11:51] <x-f> Ilmapall, should be launching soon, 20 minutes into ISH now
[11:52] <x-f> another balloonchallenge launch
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[11:53] <x-f> and students
[11:53] <sq5kvs> thanks
[11:53] Action: x-f draws a pattern. :)
[11:54] <sq5kvs> anyway, too far for my beam
[11:54] <marcis> hi! should IIlmapall appear on dlfldigi flight list?
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[11:55] <x-f> yeah, i also don't know their predicted burst altitude, so i didn't bother Polish hams this time
[11:56] <x-f> marcis, its flight doc has not been approved, that's why it is not on the list
[11:58] <marcis> so that means that they will not launch today?
[11:59] <sq5kvs> jupi, my remote rx back to life
[11:59] <x-f> no, that's not a show-stopper, just an inconvenience for the trackers
[12:00] <marcis> there is some activity on map - could it possibly be the real flight?
[12:02] <x-f> let's hope so
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[12:16] <x-f> looking at the logtail, they too might be having some issues with the GPS signal, position fields are blank again
[12:31] <PB0AHX-Herman> !flights
[12:31] <SpacenearUS> 03PB0AHX-Herman: Current flights: 03ANU 9 10(ce0d), 03MM4 10(3063)
[12:32] <PB0AHX-Herman> !dial MM4
[12:32] <SpacenearUS> 03PB0AHX-Herman: Latest dials for 03MM4 10(3063): 031 MHz
[12:35] <x-f> just found on Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2FFvZ_n1Sc
[12:35] <x-f> maybe they already launched..
[12:36] <bradfirj> Any BT customers in the UK seeing very high packet loss and general internet rubbish-ness?
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[12:37] <x-f> yep, seeing faint RTTY on the waterfall..
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[12:38] <fsphil> hehe, http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/4313630850
[12:38] <fsphil> (not BT, not fair test)
[12:39] <bradfirj> That a home connection fsphil? ;)
[12:39] <fsphil> sadly not!
[12:39] <bradfirj> I hear they have running water over there now
[12:39] <fsphil> although I might be able to get a LoS wifi link...
[12:39] <bradfirj> :)
[12:39] Action: daveake sulks
[12:39] <bradfirj> http://ix.io/i5G
[12:39] <bradfirj> ugh
[12:40] <UpuWork> quick hack his Ubiquiti
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[12:40] <bradfirj> :O
[12:40] <x-f> marcis, somehow they are livestreaming video from the clouds (upside down) but their radio tracker and GPS isn't very working, check 434.074.8
[12:42] <marcis> oh where can video be seen?
[12:44] <x-f> it stopped now it think - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2FFvZ_n1Sc
[12:44] <marcis> thanks
[12:44] <fsphil> I didn't know about ix.io - that's handy
[12:47] <edmoore> me neither
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[12:49] <sq5kvs> funny
[12:49] <bradfirj> fsphil: it's fantastic
[12:49] <edmoore> haha
[12:49] <bradfirj> Linux user?
[12:50] <sq5kvs> latidude and longitude looks fine, but altitude not :)
[12:50] <sq5kvs> x-f: I cant anything on this YT
[12:50] <fsphil> yea
[12:50] <bradfirj> from vim, <ESC>:w ! ix
[12:50] <bradfirj> or your equivalent in emacs, to send straight to ix
[12:50] <fsphil> language!
[12:50] <edmoore> yes
[12:51] <edmoore> this is a first warning bradfirj
[12:51] <bradfirj> You see the difficulty is now, I can't tell which one you're mad at ;)
[12:51] <edmoore> we like to keep this channel clean and family friendly
[12:51] <sq5kvs> :)
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[12:51] <edmoore> let's start from the top and pretend this didn't happen
[12:51] <edmoore> ugg
[12:52] <sq5kvs> edmoore: even if we are familiar with shell?
[12:53] <Geoff-G8DHE> https://maps.google.com/maps?q=33%C2%B030%2752.5%22N+73%C2%B003%2733.2%22E&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=33.514707,73.063116&spn=0.070487,0.07699&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=66.954931,78.837891&t=m&z=14
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[12:53] <sq5kvs> Geoff-G8DHE: Nice :)
[12:53] <Geoff-G8DHE> :)
[12:53] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03EDUPIC15 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=EDUPIC15
[12:54] <sq5kvs> but it's pakistan
[12:55] <sq5kvs> they don't have any apples I think :D
[12:56] <Laurenceb__> fldigi PSKR looks fun
[12:56] <edmoore> bradfirj, so there was a guy at bristol uni spaceflight
[12:56] <edmoore> i think he used emacs
[12:56] <sq5kvs> I love this kind of manuals http://www.cqham.ru/projects/430mhz_ssb_trx/430ssb50.gif
[12:56] <edmoore> i think that's it in the history of the channel pretty much
[12:56] <bradfirj> Hah
[12:56] <Laurenceb__> http://www.w1hkj.com/FldigiHelp-3.22/FLDigiWindowHtml.png
[12:57] <bradfirj> I've been tempted to the dark side many times but I always end up coming back
[12:57] <edmoore> i thought dark thoughts when i was writing Scheme
[12:57] <edmoore> but they passed
[12:58] <bradfirj> I still contemplate it when I have to work on windows, because win32 emacs works better than win32 gvim, but eh, that's a pretty niche case
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[13:01] <edmoore> i would probably be ok with the vim emulation mode
[13:01] <bradfirj> Evil (apt name) breaks other stuff unfortunately
[13:01] <bradfirj> and commands I was really used to, C-d scroll half screen down etc, aren't there because C-d does something else in emacsenland
[13:02] <fsphil> I did use MicroEMACs briefly, a long time ago
[13:02] <fsphil> don't remember liking it
[13:03] <fsphil> don't know how similar it is to full fat emacs
[13:03] <sq5kvs> ilmapal at about 20km
[13:11] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KG5FKB-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KG5FKB-11
[13:13] <SpeedEvil> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@33.5139995,73.0620317,16z
[13:15] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03JACKAL2 after 032 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=JACKAL2
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[13:22] <sq5kvs> ilampall back from russia
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[13:26] <x-f> hah
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[13:26] <x-f> predictor doesn't give up
[13:27] <sq5kvs> but the pressure is still the same
[13:27] <x-f> it could be above 30km then? that's where GFS ends, iirc
[13:28] <sq5kvs> if the pressure is correct, it max about 20km
[13:29] <x-f> and what's up with the altitude?
[13:29] <x-f> and the less-than-poor signal?
[13:29] <x-f> how do you even
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[13:37] <x-f> i've successfully decoded just one single packet so far
[13:38] <Vaizki> hmm some hab action in Estonia?
[13:40] <sq5kvs> temperature increasing but pressure not
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[13:41] <sq5kvs> probably this balon pop
[13:41] <x-f> not yet, it's in the stratosphere
[13:42] <sq5kvs> hm
[13:42] <x-f> you will see sharp decrese in temperature when it starts descent
[13:42] <x-f> decrease*
[13:42] <marcis> lot of fading in signal...
[13:43] <sq5kvs> hm
[13:43] <sq5kvs> maybe
[13:43] <sq5kvs> btw what freq?
[13:43] <x-f> you're putting it mildly, marcis :)
[13:43] <x-f> 434.074.2
[13:45] <Vaizki> !flights
[13:45] <SpacenearUS> 03Vaizki: Current flights: 03ANU 9 10(ce0d), 03MM4 10(3063)
[13:47] <sq5kvs> x-f, rtty?
[13:47] <x-f> yes
[13:48] <x-f> suddenly all decodes are green
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[13:50] <ES5TF> Good day!
[13:51] <LuckyLuke> hi all. guys... what sensor for pressure-altitude ?
[13:51] <LuckyLuke> i'm going to connect it to rasPI
[13:52] <Vaizki> pressure.. something expensive. altitude = GPS
[13:53] <Vaizki> I looked into some pressure sensors and if they give any kind of usable numbers at 20km+ altitudes they are special and expensive products
[13:54] <Vaizki> so I left out pressure from my first design
[13:54] <Ian_> For altitude use GPS not pressure. The Mexicans have a monopoly on pressure altitude interpretation :)
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[13:55] <LuckyLuke> ok. so I'll read altitude from GPS then
[13:55] <marcis> interesting what tx antenna they are using
[13:55] <Ian_> Pressure needs a lot of temperature and other corrections to be accurate and if you get very high the problem gets worse.
[13:56] <Ian_> It's not linear.
[13:56] <LuckyLuke> but I might wan't to add some addistional cheap sensor, just for fun
[13:56] <LuckyLuke> so I could compare with GPS for example
[13:57] Nick change: bradfirj_ -> bradfirj
[13:58] <Ian_> That would be valid of course. Just as long as you aren't depending upon it Amigos!
[14:00] <LuckyLuke> thanks ! and bye ;)
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[14:02] <Vaizki> ok he left.. but I did look at some altitude sensors and their calibrated ranges ended between 5-8km usually
[14:03] <Vaizki> they didn't say that outright but the data sheets had kPa ranges
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[14:06] <sq5kvs> probably he don't want to publish results in Nature
[14:08] <Vaizki> sq5kvs, well I got the impression that at 30km high the resolution of the pressure sensor will be more like 500 meters
[14:08] <Vaizki> not 50cm like it is on ground level
[14:09] <Vaizki> and not only resolution is bad but also weather will make big errors into it
[14:09] <Vaizki> anyway, time to go home&
[14:09] <ES5TF> Ilmapall is descending now
[14:09] <ES5TF> well.. we crossed fingers that it comes down in Estonia.. but now it's already over Russia
[14:10] <ES5TF> and most probably (according to Murphy's laws) it will splash into the Lake Pskov :D
[14:10] <sq5kvs> I'm, sceptic :)
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[14:11] <sq5kvs> 530hpa
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[14:19] <x-f> Murphy is strong with this one :/
[14:21] <ES5TF> yeah
[14:23] <ES5TF> signal lost
[14:23] <ES5TF> and a "splash" on the waterfall :D
[14:23] <sq5kvs> bulpbulp
[14:23] <sq5kvs> bulp
[14:24] <sq5kvs> you have to add a marine propeller next time
[14:25] <j0nnymac> hey there - is there a recommended location in hampshire to do hab launches from?
[14:25] <x-f> if you have a waterproof note on the payload, there's still a chance to recover it one day
[14:26] <ES5TF> it is kind of waterproof, yes
[14:26] <ES5TF> plastic bag for documents
[14:26] <ES5TF> :D
[14:27] <ES5TF> sq5kvs, such extra gear is a really good idea - after all, Estonia is surrounded by water from 3 compass directions ;-)
[14:27] <edmoore> j0nnymac, no, normally you have to apply for your own launch site
[14:28] <j0nnymac> coolers - ta
[14:29] <cm13g09> j0nnymac: you may want to talk to craag_philcrump and mattbrejza
[14:29] <cm13g09> as they're both Hampshire based
[14:30] <cm13g09> and they are more likely to be able to work out what's going to get approved/not approved
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[14:30] <j0nnymac> brillo - cheers
[14:30] <cm13g09> there's a wealth of information in this channel and on the wiki
[14:31] <j0nnymac> <looking>
[14:31] <cm13g09> just a case of finding the right people :)
[14:31] <j0nnymac> got to say
[14:31] <edmoore> the wiki has absolutely tonnes
[14:31] <edmoore> but it is a bit quirky
[14:31] <edmoore> navigation-wise
[14:31] <j0nnymac> everyone has been super helpful
[14:31] <edmoore> i think the trick with the wiki is to block asside a good couple of hours with a coffee and a croissant
[14:32] <edmoore> and just browser
[14:32] <edmoore> and follow links randomly
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[14:32] <edmoore> get into quiet dusty cul-de-sacs of project pages that haven't been updated since 2007
[14:32] <edmoore> see what people did
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[14:33] <x-f> ES5TF, what does Ilmapall mean?
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[14:36] <sq5kvs> x-f:
[14:36] <sq5kvs> if its true, it mean "balloon" :D
[14:37] <x-f> that would be too simple :)
[14:37] <sq5kvs> no, it's clever :)
[14:41] <bradfirj> edmoore: that wiki has lost me many afternoons
[14:41] <edmoore> it's fun
[14:42] <Ian_> Google translate says that "Ilmapall" is Finnish and means "Balloons"
[14:42] <Ian_> It's even more fun when you try to find a specific page again . . .
[14:42] <x-f> :|
[14:43] <sq5kvs> Ian_: It's much better than "Apple" :D
[14:43] <Ian_> Very true.
[14:43] <edmoore> well given most of my memory of the wiki is about 8 years old it's even more fun when you try and find a speciric page 8 years later
[14:44] <sq5kvs> use non volatle memory
[14:44] <edmoore> when you're quite sure there was a documented quirk in the interface to some random gryo *somewhere* on the wiki
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[14:45] <Ian_> I don't think the persistence of my memory will allow much fine detail going back that far.
[14:46] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03homes_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=homes_chase
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[15:07] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
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[15:26] <Lunar_Lander> hello again
[15:32] <sq5kvs> bye :)
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[15:36] <KF5WYX> Hi all
[15:40] <KF5WYX> FYI: Flight planned for tomorrow 1400h UTC from Marfa TX. Tracking directly from chase car, indirectly on APRS.FI. Car = KF5WYX Payload = KF5WYX-11
[15:41] <KF5WYX> Make that 1600h UTC
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[15:43] <KF5WYX> Mission card: http://etakuramnasmekh.com/mission-volatus-flight-1/ Updates at the same domain
[15:43] <Jartza> happy 25th birthday, Hubble
[15:44] <es5nhc> So the weather balloon finally went to Russia anyways...
[15:44] <es5nhc> hi all!
[15:44] <KF5WYX> hi es5nhc
[15:44] <es5nhc> I was in Tartu and saw Ilmapall(literally means Weather ball) launch first hand
[15:47] <Jartza> ilma means "air" or "weather" in finnish :p
[15:48] <Jartza> we have "ilmapallo" :)
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[15:53] <UpuWork> !aprs list
[15:53] <SpacenearUS> 03UpuWork: Tracking via APRS: 03DL4MDW-11, 03DL4MDW-12, 03DN4GB-11, 03KB1YTY, 03KC3EMR-12, 03KC8UCH-11, 03KD2E-12, 03KF5PGW-8, 03KG5FKB-11, 03LU7AA-11, 03M0RPI-9, 03SP9UOB-11
[15:53] <UpuWork> !aprs add KF5WYX-11
[15:53] <SpacenearUS> 03UpuWork: You need to be an admin to do that.
[15:53] <UpuWork> stab
[15:53] <Upu> !aprs add KF5WYX-11
[15:53] <SpacenearUS> 03Upu: Added 03KF5WYX-11 to APRS Importer
[15:53] <UpuWork> good luck KF5WYX
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[16:04] <KF5WYX> Thank you
[16:04] <KF5WYX> Will spacenear.us be tracking the APRS packets now?
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[16:12] <ES5TF> x-f and sq5kvs, Ilmapall means directly translated "weather balloon" or actually "meteo balloon"
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[16:34] <Upu> yes KF5WYX
[16:34] <Upu> so you get live predictions too
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[16:38] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VE4SHS-5 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VE4SHS-5
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[16:50] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03WA2MJM-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WA2MJM-11
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[17:10] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03test-chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=test-chase
[17:16] <KF5WYX> Live predictions sounds good - though I'll likely not have internet connectivity way out west texas.
[17:17] <KF5WYX> Do I need to enter any more information about the payload to make the predictions more accurate?
[17:17] <SpeedEvil> http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/typo3conf/ext/naksci_podcast/jplayer/player.php?podcast=1001037 'The name's Bond. Alan Bond' (Skylon)
[17:18] <SpeedEvil> KF5WYX: In general, all you need is ascent and descent speed and burst altitude
[17:18] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ZINOO3 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ZINOO3
[17:19] <KF5WYX> I'm at work, and scheduled for a meeting in under 10 mins. If you're still around in an hour or so, I'd appreciate help making sure this is setup. It could save me running manual predictions at the time of laucnh.
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[18:21] <KF5WYX> Okay :-) Can anyone tell me where and how I update spacenear.us with my payload ascent/descent rates?
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[18:35] <Upu> you don't KF5WYX
[18:35] <Upu> what are you aiming for ?
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[18:37] <KF5WYX> Well - it's a 1Kg envelope, with only 700g payload. I don't have particular altitude targets. Using the burst rate calculator I came up with 33Km burst, 4.91m/s ascent, 2.886m/s descent
[18:37] <KF5WYX> It's a huge chute for the payload.
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[18:37] <KF5WYX> All of my numbers are here http://etakuramnasmekh.com/mission-volatus-flight-1/
[18:37] <Upu> it'll work it out fine with defaults
[18:37] <KF5WYX> Okay, thanks Upu :)
[18:38] <KF5WYX> I'm not certain the 33Km is feasible with the 1000g latex envelope, but we'll see.
[18:38] <daveake> it is
[18:39] <KF5WYX> oh good :) I've only ever made 31.5 with 1000-1200g thus far.
[18:39] <daveake> that's what the calculator is telling you
[18:39] <daveake> yes but less gas for 700g
[18:39] <KF5WYX> *nods - it's getting a neck lift of 1700g or so, pretty impressive.
[18:40] <daveake> and it's primarily the amount of gas that determines the altitude for a given balloon
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[18:41] <KF5WYX> I think my only real variable is the neck lift scale I'm using is accurate to 0.1kg - I'd have more precise if I were able to find one on tim.
[18:41] <KF5WYX> time*
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[18:43] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC9QOV-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC9QOV-11
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[19:05] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03W9UVI-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=W9UVI-11
[19:06] <TT7> hello everybody
[19:07] <bradfirj> daveake: Assuming money no object, is there a downside to filling the balloon more? (Not over-filling of course) Does that make it prone to bursting earlier?
[19:07] <TT7> does anyone know the weights of yesterday's +40 payloads?
[19:08] <daveake> bursts earlier and lower
[19:08] <daveake> so fewer photographs
[19:08] <daveake> but sometimes you have to do this to make the flight safe, or to stop it landing abroad
[19:09] <daveake> p.s. best to ask questions generally as you're more likely to get an answer
[19:10] <daveake> e.g. I might not be watching
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[19:11] <bradfirj> Fair enough :)
[19:11] <bradfirj> I failed at reading timestamps and tried to tag along on your discussion with KF5WYX, but I didn't notice it was a half-hour ago :derp:
[19:21] <number10> daveake: looked through the pictures and they were captured befor and after the 41817m some are here https://www.flickr.com/photos/65839734@N04/sets/72157652144653202/
[19:21] <daveake> cool
[19:21] <number10> I think I got confused looking at the times with UTC BST and 12h 24h conversion
[19:21] <number10> camera switch off about 10 mins before landing
[19:23] <daveake> hah
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[19:41] <garymortimer> in late, may have had a few sweet sherries with a few dear friends those photos are the bomb. Vic and I are going to watch a hydrogen launch from Howick (South Africa) tomorrow morning its local radio hams. They have asked folks to track on 434 so far I think its only Vic and I
[19:42] <garymortimer> They are also running aprs so perhaps thats what they think will wotk
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[19:42] <garymortimer> work
[19:42] <garymortimer> I expect launch will be about 0630 local in the UK
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[19:55] <KF5WYX> Regarding fewer photos - my first flight took about an hour to recover after landing, so I have some 200 photographs of a blade of grass. I aim for photo's no more than about 20/30 mins after burst, and never use a fisheye gopro.
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[20:06] <SpeedEvil> KF5WYX: did you analyse it to see if you could see it growing?
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[20:07] <KF5WYX> I didn't - I just dumped the images onto my NAS and forgot about them. I did make a time-laps video in which you can see the occasional wind disturbance.
[20:07] <KF5WYX> The irony is, I messed up the ISO setting on the camera for that flight. (Set it to most sensitive rather than least sensitive on the hottest, and therefore brightest, day of the year 2012). The grass images were the best shots.
[20:08] <KF5WYX> If I make that mistake again, I'll simply give up trying lol
[20:09] <SpeedEvil> hah
[20:12] <prog> Upu: around?
[20:12] <KF5WYX> My second flight, was an opportunity flight. I was back in the UK for only a couple of weeks, so I dug out my already imperfect flight computer, and flew despite weather conditions that pointed towards a france landing. The CUSF team went to france and recorded it's ditch into the channel.
[20:12] <KF5WYX> So this is attempt 3, in the more heavily regulated US.
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[20:14] <KF5WYX> Not proud to be using an Arduino, in it's development kit form, but it's certainly been easier to code.
[20:14] <MattReid> If the payload lands in water just off the coast, how do you recover it?
[20:15] <KF5WYX> We didn't.
[20:15] <KF5WYX> I believe there was one recovered from the north sea once - The SD card stood up well to the salt-water.
[20:16] <MattReid> And how was it retrieved? The project I'm running has sponsors who won't be very happy if we don't get it back
[20:18] <KF5WYX> I don't recall (a google will turn the flight up I'm sure). I think a coast guard boat stumbled upon it, and it contained contact details for the owner. You have no assurances to give to your sponsors, unless they are willing to sponsor the charter of a ship of some kind.
[20:18] <daveake> http://ava.upuaut.net/?p=155
[20:19] <KF5WYX> That's the one, thanks daveake
[20:19] <daveake> Alternative approach http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=220
[20:19] <KF5WYX> So they hired a boat from a touring company, and the payload had continued tx'ing.
[20:20] <KF5WYX> I have to bail for the day. Take care all.
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[20:20] <daveake> There have been several others washed up and at least one found by a passing boat
[20:21] <MattReid> I have a friend who owns a kayak but I don't think that'll work too well...
[20:23] <MattReid> I'll look into this but how do you go about getting land owners permission to launch on their land?
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[20:43] <highflyer> hi everyone, has anyone used the ntx2b with the arduino mega? I can't get dl-fldigi to properly decode the signal and it sounds grainy (works perfectly on the uno). I suspect (but don't know) that the setpwmfrequency function isn't working correctly on the mega?
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[20:44] <daveake> RTTY?
[20:44] <daveake> Absolutely no reason to use PWM if so.
[20:44] <daveake> Do you have a free serial port out of the 4 on the mega?
[20:44] <daveake> If so, no need to do RTTY in software either
[20:45] <highflyer> yeh, sorry for being stupid but i thought pwm was needed to control the voltage and thus frequency of the transmitter?
[20:45] <daveake> nope
[20:45] <mfa298> resistors are pretty good at that too
[20:46] <daveake> It's a voltage-controlled FM transmitter
[20:46] <highflyer> ah, that was the impression i got from here https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2
[20:46] <daveake> You just need to control the voltage
[20:47] <daveake> Unless you were making a million trackers and need to save tuppence on the resistors, there's no need to use PWM
[20:47] <highflyer> ok thanks, how do I use a serial port to control the voltage?
[20:47] <mfa298> also saves a timer so it's free for other stuff
[20:48] <daveake> Well the serial port already changes the voltage on its Tx pin
[20:48] <daveake> however that's between 0V and 5V
[20:48] <daveake> which you need to change so it's a difference of about 0.5V instead of 5V
[20:48] <daveake> a job for which resistors are ideal
[20:49] <Reb-SM3U1C> daveake: how about including som telemtry inline in your pics?
[20:49] <highflyer> isn't it simpler to use pwm than getting resistors?
[20:49] <Reb-SM3U1C> daveake: nice pics form today btw
[20:49] <daveake> you mean an overlay?
[20:49] <daveake> pwm simplifies the electrical side a bit, at the expensive of a very considerable increase in software complexity
[20:50] <daveake> And since you're having trouble with the latter .....
[20:50] <highflyer> yeh, just wondered if anyone had had success with the mega
[20:50] <daveake> to get pwm right you need to understand the pwm hardware in detail
[20:51] Action: mfa298 finds getting resistors is generally fairly easy. Open bits box and choose a value. Failing that RS/CPC (RS I can do on route to work - so same day)
[20:51] <daveake> and you don't
[20:51] <daveake> and I don't
[20:51] <daveake> and you have spare serial ports
[20:51] <daveake> and rtty is serial
[20:51] <daveake> obvious answer is obvious
[20:51] <Reb-SM3U1C> daveake: right
[20:51] <daveake> yeah, well, waste of pixels :)
[20:51] <daveake> however will probably add it to the pits code soon
[20:52] <daveake> as people will like it
[20:52] <mfa298> using resistors will probably also give a cleaner signal as you're sending pure DC to adjust the carrier frequency rather than synthesising the DC voltage by turning something on and off really fast
[20:52] <highflyer> it all seemed so simple in the code here: https://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2
[20:52] Nick change: Crashbone|Away -> Crashbone
[20:52] <daveake> highflyer doesn't matter how simple you think the sample is
[20:52] <daveake> it's not working and you don't know why not
[20:53] <daveake> fixing it requires knowledge of the PWM hardware in the mega
[20:53] <daveake> which I don't have
[20:53] <highflyer> ok thanks for your help
[20:53] <daveake> so you can either look that up
[20:53] <daveake> or follow my suggestion and use a serial port
[20:53] <daveake> thus cutting out lots of code
[20:54] <Reb-SM3U1C> daveake: it is yes.. i tought it could be possible to add in jpg-metadata so one could extract and add when using later
[20:54] <mfa298> highflyer: can you explain exactly what all the bits in that code are doing (e.g. whats TCCR0B)
[20:54] <mfa298> that's the only time you can really claim it's actually simple. Otherwise it's just magic you copy and pasted.
[20:54] <daveake> Reb-SM3U1C If you mean the jpg files on the SD card, then yes that's probably worth doing
[20:55] <highflyer> i wish i could, i have a vague idea that its setting the frequency at which the voltage is altered?
[20:55] <daveake> If you're thinking about SSDV, then that information doesn't get included in the SSDV version of the image
[20:56] <Reb-SM3U1C> daveake: i thought (first) on the ssdv-version
[20:56] <mfa298> also as daveake has said at least once, what you're sending (RTTY) is serial data. You have a spare serial port (i.e. something designed to send serial data and do all the timings for you in hardware) so that should be the obvious choice to use. Anything else and you're wasting hardware on the chip
[20:56] <daveake> highflyer I did some work to convert that PWM code to use a different timer (on hardware where the PWM pin was controlled by a different timer). It was a pain in the arse.
[20:57] <daveake> yeah PWM RTTY on a mega is like getting in a car and then pedalling it along
[20:57] <Vaizki> yea just go with resistors and a serial port
[20:58] <bradfirj> Of course the optimal solution is to have some sort of ADC chip ;)
[20:58] <bradfirj> Especially if hardware complexity is no object
[20:58] <daveake> no it isn't
[20:58] <bradfirj> DAC*
[20:58] <bradfirj> I'm awful
[20:58] <daveake> you need the timing
[20:58] <daveake> uart does the timing
[20:58] <daveake> saving you writing an ISR
[20:59] <bradfirj> Indeed, especially if software complexity is the issue then avoiding ISRs is probably a wise choice
[21:00] <daveake> People seem to forget that the timer+"rx_bit()" thing is just a Tx-only software UART
[21:00] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03K6RPT-11 after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K6RPT-11
[21:00] <bradfirj> MFSK does require a custom solution though
[21:01] <bradfirj> So if you ever want to go near that it might be worth investigating
[21:01] <daveake> I btw cry every time I see (the cut 'n' pasted) "if (bit) tx_bit(1) else tx_bit(0)" code
[21:01] <Vaizki> :)
[21:02] <Vaizki> but hey what if bit == 2?
[21:02] <daveake> :)
[21:02] <Vaizki> just my 2 bits..
[21:02] <Vaizki> cents..
[21:05] <bradfirj> Why does it make you cry? I mean it works right?
[21:05] <Babs> evening - on my board based on this schematic http://imgur.com/t2FqKea
[21:05] <bradfirj> A lot of non optimal code is sorted out by the compiler optimisations anyway (unless it's totally wack)
[21:06] <Babs> i have a 330ohm resistor between pb2 and txd
[21:06] <daveake> more the lack of understanding than the lack of optimisation
[21:06] <highflyer> great i'll give that a try, does anyone know roughly what resistor value to use for rtty (425 carrier shift)?
[21:06] <mikestir> it won't optimise that anything since it will have to generate code to (unnecessarily) squash the unbounded value of bit to a 1 or 0
[21:06] <mikestir> because that's what you're telling it to do
[21:07] <mikestir> s/anything/anyway/
[21:07] <daveake> quite so
[21:07] <Babs> the board is running well and through my debug pins it is doing everything it needs to do (the tiny GPS antenna is picking up a signal in the middle of my living room which is pretty cool)
[21:07] <daveake> besides "oh the compiler will sort it out" is lazy
[21:07] <Babs> anyhow, I'm not getting a brilliant rtty warble from the board. is there anything obvious wrong with it?
[21:07] <bradfirj> Oh right you mean masking and shifting would be more efficient
[21:07] <daveake> just make the code obvious
[21:08] <mikestir> just tx_bit(bit) would be fine
[21:08] <daveake> No I mean tx_bit(bit) would be more efficient
[21:08] <daveake> and clearer
[21:08] <daveake> and shorter
[21:08] <daveake> and better
[21:08] <Babs> (i don't have an antenna linked to the MTX2, but I never used to with the NTX2 and it never caused an issue, so am assuing i can do the same thing here
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[21:10] <daveake> highflyer something like (from NTX2B data pin) 4k7 to gnd, 4k7 to 5V, 47k to mega Tx
[21:10] <daveake> that will be close
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[21:14] <highflyer> great thanks
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[21:20] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03N8ERF-5_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=N8ERF-5_chase
[21:22] <Vaizki> highflyer: basically what is happening there is that the 2x 4.7k from GND and +5V create a voltage divider that settles your tx signal at 2.5V when there is no output on the digital pin of the arduino. So that's one of your frequencies.
[21:22] <Vaizki> the 47k on that pin then gets the "on" voltage of the pin down low enough to cause a 425 shift (or close to it)
[21:25] <Vaizki> I think ntx2b is 6kHz max deviation with 3V on the TX pin so 425Hz shift is 2.5V+0.2125V = 2.7125V
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[21:25] <highflyer> ok thanks, so il'll need 3 resistors?
[21:25] <Vaizki> yes
[21:26] <Vaizki> 2 equally sized ones to create the voltage divider, might as well go with 4.7k as suggested
[21:26] <Vaizki> and 1 more to drop the tx pin voltage to the right level
[21:26] <highflyer> i've got a programmable resistor to test with
[21:27] <edmoore> what devilry is this ^
[21:27] <Vaizki> I am as shocked as you are
[21:27] <Vaizki> where is MY programmable resistor?!
[21:27] <Vaizki> I even missed out on a resistor decade just a month ago..
[21:28] <highflyer> well, 'programmable' is probably exaggerating
[21:29] <highflyer> http://gerrysweeney.com/seven-decade-programmable-resistor-a-low-cost-solution/
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[21:31] <Vaizki> right.. I missed out on a http://www.tradeport.on.ca/dat/products/2720.jpg
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[21:32] <Vaizki> still ticks me off, I was 10 minutes late in sending out an email to claim free loot
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[22:12] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
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[22:28] chrisstubbs (~chrisstub@host86-134-140-3.range86-134.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[22:29] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03LARDY-PICO - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=LARDY-PICO
[22:29] <Babs> woop
[22:30] RocketBoy (~steverand@05466464.skybroadband.com) joined #highaltitude.
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[22:32] <fsphil> appears to be in a tree
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[23:02] Nick change: spe -> Guest52957
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[23:19] esculca (25bdcd05@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.189.205.5) joined #highaltitude.
[23:19] <esculca> hy guys
[23:19] <esculca> good night
[23:20] <esculca> anyone been playing around with rfm98 in ook mode?
[23:21] <esculca> who wrote the rfm98 datasheet? we should find the guy
[23:21] <esculca> and take care of him
[23:22] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SP9UOB - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP9UOB
[23:23] KM4FSW (~john@059149185193.ctinets.com) joined #highaltitude.
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[23:33] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[23:50] talsit_roam (uid30008@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rmtiqgjdiyyotfes) joined #highaltitude.
[23:53] <esculca> anyone been using the RFM98 in ook mode?
[00:00] --- Sat Apr 25 2015