highaltitude.log.20150410

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[05:40] <es5nhc> Gud Moaning!
[05:40] <arko> https://archive.org/details/EVAGoPro
[05:40] <arko> nasa released GoPro footage of an EVA done on the ISS
[05:44] Nick change: Upu- -> Upu
[05:48] <es5nhc> Labr)t, x-f!
[05:52] <es5nhc> I couldn't help but notice the name IRBE. I immediately think the Strait of Irbe. Between Kurzeme and Saaremaa :)
[05:52] <x-f> Labr+t, es5nhc! :)
[05:54] <es5nhc> What's the scoop from launch site?
[05:54] <x-f> i'm pretty sure that acronym isn't a coincidence
[05:54] <x-f> they are tweeting that the sky is clear - https://twitter.com/irbe_1
[05:55] <x-f> "irbe" translates as "partridge"
[05:55] <es5nhc> Thanks, will follow. Weather fine too... will be warm too. Perfect for a little outdoor mission(for best reception, I'll probably set up reception outdoors) for me.
[05:56] <x-f> also not far from Ventspils there is Irbene - huge radiotelescope that the USSR army used to spy on the West
[05:57] <x-f> sadly i won't be tracking today, my home network is still down :/
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[06:05] <marcis_> Hello! We are still preparing!
[06:06] <es5nhc> IRBE-1?
[06:10] <x-f> yup
[06:14] <es5nhc> FWIW, appears there is tropo at least towards Finland right now
[06:16] <es5nhc> Hearing Rzekne too... and a number of Tallinn FM broadcasters
[06:16] <marcis_> Yes, balloon is filled, and we are attaching payload right now
[06:16] <es5nhc> So if the propagation holds, I believe some below horizon reception might be possible
[06:17] <x-f> NOAA SWPC issued an alert of K-index of 6 (G2) 15 minutes ago, could be related?
[06:17] <es5nhc> No.
[06:17] <es5nhc> Clear tropo duct
[06:17] <es5nhc> Auroral reflection would be distorted etc... And stations more distant
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[06:18] <x-f> ah
[06:18] <es5nhc> Like during the major March aurora I picked up RMF FM from Poland
[06:18] <es5nhc> And even then to fully hear anything, had to use earphones
[06:19] <x-f> i wasn't prepared for it, had no camera or radio with me so i just watched it
[06:20] <es5nhc> Oh, and I used a usual portable radio with original telescopic antenna. Technisat Digitradio 210 to be more exact
[06:20] <es5nhc> Has quite sensitive FM tuner, can even get some LV stations here with RDS
[06:29] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
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[07:07] <marcis_> We got gps problems
[07:09] <x-f> can't get a fix?
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[07:37] <es5nhc> Just delay or has the launch been scrubbed?
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[07:47] <x-f> marcis_, how is it going there?
[07:47] <marcis_> Sorry, flight will be dealyed
[07:47] <x-f> ah
[07:48] <marcis_> GPS alone is working - in payload box not. Still working on it
[07:52] <marcis_> We hope to fix it till 13:00
[07:52] <craag> Are there cameras in the payload box marcis_ ?
[07:53] <x-f> if your payload box is that silvery box i saw in photos, then it might be blocking the signal
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[07:55] <marcis_> yes - they ar turned off right now
[07:55] <craag> Ok - is the box foil/metallic? If so take it off.
[07:56] <craag> Posting a pic of the payload box would be useful :)
[07:58] <x-f> http://www.diena.lv/uploads/thumbnails/705x457/article/1410/14094181/6144526_ORIGINAL_1428649434.jpg.jpg
[07:59] <craag> eek
[07:59] <craag> yeah gps isn't going to work in that
[07:59] <x-f> diena.lv reports, it's already launched, journalists..
[07:59] <craag> need to strip the foil off
[08:00] <craag> (unless you have a gps antenna on wire, then you could put the antenna outside, on top of the box)
[08:00] <x-f> or put the GPS antenna or the whole module on the top, if you can
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[08:00] <x-f> snap
[08:00] <craag> ;)
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[08:00] <gonzo_> or strip off enough foil near the gps ant, so that it can see a good % of sky
[08:01] <gonzo_> but putting the ant outside os better
[08:01] <daveake> looks like the foil is both sides
[08:01] <daveake> in which case probably easier to get the gps outside
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[08:01] <fsphil> silvery payloads are impossible to find in trees. too late now but maybe next time use a bright florescent yellow or orange :)
[08:01] <daveake> pink
[08:01] <craag> Plus that payload box looks heavy
[08:02] <gonzo_> also, make sure t
[08:02] <craag> look at the bolts..
[08:02] <gonzo_> your transmitting antenna is outside too
[08:02] <fsphil> the foil I used on mine wasn't conductive, though I didn't put any on the lid
[08:02] <fsphil> I just used it because i thought it looked cool
[08:02] <daveake> I used some as a gp last time
[08:03] <gonzo_> the test that we use to see if something is condictive, or RF absorbtive, when playing mictowave comms, is to put it in the uwave oven
[08:04] <gonzo_> shows up conductivity quite spectacularly
[08:04] <gonzo_> and absorbtion, hets warm
[08:04] <daveake> after which it isn't conductive any more? :)
[08:04] <gonzo_> I used to use that to erase CD/DVDs
[08:05] <gonzo_> someone saw me do it, and submitted it to the .mod, who investigated it as a battlefield way of bulk erasing cds
[08:05] <gonzo_> (though I think they were thinking of cammand post cabin, rather than having a backpack uwave over!
[08:06] <gonzo_> oven
[08:07] <marcis_> we finelly got fix
[08:07] <daveake> removed the foil? gps outside?
[08:07] <marcis_> There is still hope ;)
[08:07] <gonzo_> don't think it ever got anywhere. Squadies would just use it to do pies
[08:08] <marcis_> Yes, cameras disconnected at this moment
[08:08] <gonzo_> is your transmitting/telemetry antenna outside of the box??
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[08:09] <infaddict> have you tested this fully assembled payload box before today?
[08:09] <daveake> marcis_ Please don't launch without removing that foil, or putting the GPS and radio antennae outside
[08:09] <x-f> marcis_, did you do anything or it got the fix just by itself? (because it might loose it again then)
[08:09] <gonzo_> pft, that's not the HAB way!! Finishing the coding 20mins before launch is more it
[08:10] <edmoore> picture please
[08:10] <edmoore> let me join in
[08:10] <marcis_> we removed sd card lines from code. We will test it filly now
[08:10] <edmoore> I'll be the big spoon
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[08:11] <edmoore> in the very early days of CUSF henry would declare a flight computer feature freeze at about T+2hrs
[08:11] <edmoore> then begin debugging
[08:11] <edmoore> then we'd launch at about T+4hrs
[08:11] <gonzo_> (I was being sarcastic, but it's pretty close to the truth)
[08:11] <daveake> edmoore http://www.diena.lv/uploads/thumbnails/705x457/article/1410/14094181/6144526_ORIGINAL_1428649434.jpg.jpg
[08:12] <edmoore> nice box
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[08:15] <marcis_> This fail is result of improper testing. We hope to launch after half an hour
[08:15] <edmoore> most fails are like that
[08:16] <pc1pcl> 1/3 plan 1/3 build 1/3 test. Usually ends up more like 8/10 or more of your time spend building...
[08:17] <edmoore> i test a lot
[08:18] <edmoore> the advantage of doing lots of practical projects as an undergrad (where it doesn't mater so much if it fails vs doing it for work) is that you learn the importance of the other half of the engineering equation - craftsmanship and testing
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[08:18] <edmoore> vs just maths and analysis which is all the degree is good for
[08:19] <edmoore> because it gets boring after a while
[08:19] <edmoore> dodgy cabling and stuff
[08:20] <edmoore> using a gas soldering iron halfway up a mountain on the alps trying to repair a cable on a robotic airship that the wind is trying to rip out of your spare hand
[08:20] <edmoore> life is to short for such shit
[08:20] <edmoore> and that's how I met amphenol and we've been happily married ever since
[08:21] <x-f> :|
[08:21] <pc1pcl> ;)
[08:26] <x-f> marcis_, please, please, check if the required lift is still right after this delay - you are using helium, it slowly gets through the latex
[08:26] <christop_> Morning, after a little advice on GPS Antennas. Trying to figure out if i will lose anything using http://proto-pic.co.uk/antenna-gps-embedded-sma/ over http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_65&product_id=119 certainly like the idea of saving some weight.
[08:27] <edmoore> christop_, you'll be fine with the first one
[08:27] <edmoore> the gain is still plenty enough for gps
[08:27] <edmoore> a hab is the best possible use-case for GPS really, from a reception point of view
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[08:28] <edmoore> you have a very good clear view of lots of sky, no reflections or obstructions
[08:28] <christop_> excellent thanks. Did have the later but can't find so was looking for replacement and noticed that the weight saving was a bonus.
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[08:30] <edmoore> there are even lighter options if you want
[08:31] Action: infaddict waits patiently for his PCB's to arrive from HK
[08:31] <christop_> i think 18grams will be fine.
[08:32] <Babs____> Morning everyone - that lightweight solar panel firm - what was it called again? Ie for tacking into a tracker - cheers
[08:32] <edmoore> infaddict, some of the european pcb peeps are much quicker
[08:32] <edmoore> and v good quality
[08:33] <infaddict> mmm edmoore, most I found were 5-10x the price. can you recommend any?
[08:33] <Babs____> Edmoore - checked out your Germans - nice stencils but £££££s - you live very well ;-)
[08:33] <infaddict> i'd used Eurocircuits before for some items to be sold, great service and quick. but same price for 1 board as 10 from HK.
[08:34] <edmoore> infaddict, this lot https://www.pcb-pool.com/ppus/order_productconfiguration_js.html
[08:34] <edmoore> i use them for everything
[08:34] <edmoore> pcbs come back 3 days later with a laser cut stainless stencil
[08:34] <edmoore> yes they cost more
[08:34] <edmoore> still cost zero compared to my time
[08:37] <edmoore> also shipping is courier by default, plating is enig by default, and other nice things
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[08:53] <es5nhc> Any news?
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[09:13] <marcis_> We are go!
[09:14] <edmoore> good luck marcis_
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[09:19] <es5nhc> Good luck
[09:22] <infaddict> marcis_: whats your callsign, dont see it on the tracker?
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[09:29] <es5nhc> Looks like we have a liftoff... How often does it transmit?
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[09:30] <x-f> every 10 seconds, looking on the logtail
[09:30] <x-f> hi, yl3gv
[09:30] <infaddict> IRBE1?
[09:30] <daveake> yes
[09:30] <infaddict> thx daveake
[09:31] <daveake> 1.9 m/s doesn't sound good
[09:31] <infaddict> mmm slow ascent rate
[09:31] <daveake> woo 2.0
[09:32] <yl3gv> hi, x-f!
[09:33] <gonzo_> hope they don't get any rain
[09:33] <edmoore> i presume landing in belarus makes recovery more challenging
[09:33] <infaddict> ooh up to 2.8
[09:35] <x-f> gonzo_, it's sunny here, almost no clouds today
[09:41] <infaddict> guys, what do u use to check the neck lift? do you have some old fashioned weights to allow custom lifts to be checked?
[09:42] <daveake> milk container or similar
[09:42] <daveake> something with a handle
[09:42] <edmoore> factor the mass of the fill tube in
[09:43] <infaddict> and fill the container with?
[09:43] <daveake> an available liquid
[09:44] <pc1pcl> mercury if measuring for an american pico ;)
[09:44] <infaddict> ok thanks and then weigh the container using scales?
[09:44] <infaddict> or use volume
[09:44] <gonzo_> for little foil balloons, I tie the base of the payload off to a coffee mug on some kitchen scales and look at the chaneg in mass as I let the balloon tension the string. that measures the actual free lift.
[09:45] <gonzo_> As for pico flights you may only want a gram of so of free lift.
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[09:46] <infaddict> right, mine will be around 500g payload
[09:47] <pc1pcl> problem with kitchen scales is often they go in steps of >1 gram, so might need a scales like the ones used to weigh letters.
[09:48] <infaddict> does neck lift have to be that accurate? i.e. below 1g?
[09:48] <daveake> for a pico with a free lift of a gram or so, yes
[09:48] <pc1pcl> < gonzo_> As for pico flights you may only want a gram of so of free lift.
[09:48] <craag> With a latex, especially if you're filling outside, you won't be able to get that accurate.
[09:48] <daveake> or need to
[09:49] <pc1pcl> but for up/down, I guess the wind etc. will mess up your accuracy anyway,
[09:49] <daveake> plenty of variables
[09:49] <infaddict> ok thx, yep guessing for pico stuff it is important then. for me with a latex and fairly large payload, 1g accuracy probs enough
[09:49] <craag> Yeah the last couple of latex flights I filled were about +-50g due to wind.
[09:50] <infaddict> so basically is the process to calculate necklift using online calc, then use container and scales to adjust helium fill to just lift at that weight?
[09:50] <daveake> infaddict Get within 10g, add 3 stirks, and off you go
[09:50] <infaddict> hehe
[09:50] <gonzo_> is that a proportional unit?
[09:51] <daveake> The stirk is, yes
[09:51] <infaddict> proportional to wind knots
[09:51] <gonzo_> butthe basic using is raised to the power of bacon
[09:51] <gonzo_> unit
[09:51] <daveake> proportional to worry about what happens if it goes up too slowly
[09:52] <infaddict> so is too fast better than too slow or both bad?
[09:52] <gonzo_> depends of the flight
[09:52] <pc1pcl> depends on what you think is worse: late or early pop
[09:53] <infaddict> ok, for my first flight its a up and down pic/vid type affair
[09:53] <gonzo_> (awaits correction from others) too fast=too much lift and early burst
[09:53] <infaddict> so higher the better
[09:53] <craag> Unless altitude is absolutely crucial, too fast is better than too slow.
[09:53] <pc1pcl> if you want to recover your payload, early burst might be preferable to late/float
[09:53] <gonzo_> too slow=too little gas, possibly floats and drucft into sea, another continent
[09:53] <craag> too fast - you lose a bit of peak altitude - but you get it back easier than you expected.
[09:53] <craag> too slow - you might not get it back.
[09:54] <infaddict> right, so on an island like UK, too slow is bad
[09:54] <infaddict> likely to land in sea ;-)
[09:54] <pc1pcl> also too slow could mean it comes down becasue of ice etc.
[09:55] <infaddict> interesting
[09:55] <craag> even if you jsut have to drive a long way to get it, there may not be nearby listeners and it may be out of battery by the time you get there.
[09:55] <gonzo_> yep the UK is too small and surrounded by too much wet stuff
[09:55] <infaddict> so err on side of slightly too much neck lift rather than not enough
[09:55] <craag> Or someone may have stolen it.
[09:55] <gonzo_> in UK prob wise
[09:55] <gonzo_> or gone golfing
[09:55] <infaddict> lol
[09:56] <infaddict> i hope to watch a few others launching before trying my own, to watch and learn
[09:56] <JDat> IRBE-1: Airplane ARF267 aproaching!
[09:56] <daveake> http://www.daveakerman.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/15.png
[09:56] <daveake> almost a hole in one
[09:56] <infaddict> haha "in the hole!!"
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[09:57] <daveake> Note one of the payloads http://www.daveakerman.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/IMG_0658.jpg
[09:57] <daveake> actually 2 of them
[09:57] <daveake> the other (square) payload continued to photograph the golfers as they got on with their game
[09:58] <JDat> wow separation 10-15 km...
[09:58] <JDat> it's close...
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[10:11] <UpuWork> thats not close
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[10:12] <UpuWork> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/Images/Planes/5a1706180e74753d.png
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[10:18] <JDat> GEC8401
[10:18] <Laurenceb> wtf is that
[10:18] <JDat> 2 KM from IRBE-1..
[10:18] <Laurenceb> extra-ordinary rendition flight?
[10:18] <JDat> Airplane LH8401/GEC8401 near IRBE-1
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[10:20] <edmoore> how near JDat?
[10:20] <JDat> check flyghtradar24
[10:20] <JDat> check flightradar24
[10:21] <peterbjo1nx> what are the materials needed to seal a high altitude balloon?
[10:23] <edmoore> usually people just tie the neck back on itself
[10:23] <edmoore> and close it with tape or cableties
[10:23] <edmoore> a bit like how you can stop water flowing in a hose by tightly bend it
[10:23] <edmoore> bending it*
[10:24] <infaddict> JDat - what is vertical height difference between the 2?
[10:24] <Laurenceb> i think the poeple on that plane are going waterboarding at Guantanamo bay
[10:24] <Laurenceb> small white jet with no windows....
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[10:26] <JDat> infaddict, didn't fix. Was ~ 1-4 KM
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[10:36] <daveake> oh dear no flight mode
[10:37] <UpuWork> if only it was documented somewhere...
[10:37] <daveake> Someone should do that
[10:39] Action: x-f sighs.
[10:39] <edmoore> oh dear
[10:40] <edmoore> so 30 mins of testing might not be enough
[10:41] <pc1pcl> this is the test (for the next flight).
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[10:43] <infaddict> oh dear ;-(
[10:43] <infaddict> first time i've seen that happen
[10:43] <daveake> another flight foiled by lack of testing
[10:44] <infaddict> how do you test flight mode tho? other than going above 12,150m. ive checked that the gps has ack'd my command then retrieved current settings to check it. other than that not sure what i can do?
[10:44] <edmoore> that's about all you can do
[10:44] <edmoore> if you get an ack then there's not much you can do without a test flight
[10:44] <edmoore> the suspicion here is that it was never even put into flight mode
[10:44] <edmoore> you could borrow a gps simulator of course
[10:45] <infaddict> so the prediction will now be way off
[10:45] <es5nhc> How often does IRBE-1 transmit? And what does it do between transmissions?
[10:46] <es5nhc> No flightmode as the altitude having flatlined at 12150 m?
[10:46] <daveake> It should come back later, but with that ascent rate "later" could be tomorrow over Iran
[10:46] <infaddict> unless theyve found a new way to float at precise altitude
[10:46] <edmoore> es5nhc, correct
[10:48] <x-f> it's a 600g balloon, you think it will float?
[10:49] <edmoore> no
[10:49] <marcis_> No, it is on flight mode....
[10:49] <edmoore> not with a chunky payload i saw in the pic earlier
[10:49] <edmoore> unless that chunky payload is lighter than it looks
[10:49] <daveake> marcis_ No, it isn't
[10:50] <marcis_> why not?
[10:50] <daveake> Because you're getting no GPS over ~12km
[10:50] <infaddict> are you using i2c on arduino by any chance?
[10:50] Action: infaddict remembers that nasty flight mode bug
[10:50] <marcis_> no, uart
[10:50] <marcis_> it is definetaly set in flight mode
[10:51] <x-f> Ublox GPS cap out at 12km altitude in the default "pedestrian" mode
[10:51] <infaddict> the fact it stopped ascending at precisely 12,150m suggests not in flight mode
[10:51] <infaddict> which is the max limit for normal mode
[10:51] <daveake> In that case you have a wierd bug that is exactly replicating not being in flight mode
[10:51] <daveake> your choice
[10:51] <infaddict> you may have issued flight mode command but has it worked? just a thought. what GPS are you using?
[10:51] <x-f> marcis_, are you chasing it?
[10:52] <marcis_> yes
[10:52] <gonzo_> do you have a directional antenna? yagi?
[10:52] <marcis_> ok, will see if it starts working below 12....
[10:53] <marcis_> log periodic yagi, it is little dirrectional
[10:53] <daveake> marcis_ what size balloon?
[10:53] <marcis_> 600g
[10:53] <x-f> it will come back once it is below 12 km again, so try to be close enough to the predicted landing site
[10:53] <daveake> ok good
[10:53] <marcis_> 1.1kg payload
[10:53] <gonzo_> yep, they are about equiv to a 3ele yagi
[10:53] <infaddict> problem is the prediction is crap due to wrong height
[10:54] <infaddict> until < 12km
[10:54] <x-f> have to run your own manually
[10:55] <gonzo_> Is the prediction not fine, for the last known position. Just will not be updated till it sees a new valid position
[10:55] <infaddict> gonzo_: i think position is updating but not altitude
[10:55] <edmoore> marcis_, any change the gps might have reset in flight?
[10:55] <x-f> gonzo_, it is set for 30 km
[10:55] <infaddict> how accurate any position info is, is debatable
[10:56] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Lat/long haven't changed
[10:56] <gonzo_> x-f, ah yes, the burst estimation
[10:56] <marcis_> it sends last coord with fix
[10:57] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Ah small change
[10:57] <gonzo_> marcis_, looks like you will need to direction find it with the antenna to keep receiving it and hope you can hear it after burst <12k
[10:58] <es5nhc> I hear it
[10:58] <es5nhc> few khz below from nominal frequency
[10:59] <infaddict> so i'm now wondering if every x minutes i should re-issue my flight mode command (in case of a gps reset)
[11:00] <pc1pcl> infaddict: seems a good idea.
[11:00] <infaddict> mmm i agree, will modify my code. never happened (yet) during testing but you never know what might happen!
[11:00] <infaddict> expect the unexpected
[11:01] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Perhaps just read the mode back once in a while to confirm that itis still in flight mode ?
[11:02] <infaddict> yep Geoff-G8DHE-Lap, thats also an option thx. will have a think.
[11:02] <infaddict> not sure if entering flight mode causes it to lose lock or do something internal that would affect tracking for a short time
[11:03] <daveake> no
[11:03] <infaddict> ah dave, i remember one of your projects doing the X minutes thing and guessing u didnt lose lock?
[11:03] <daveake> correct
[11:04] <infaddict> so question of effeciency of either 1) checking and setting or 2) just setting anyway
[11:04] <infaddict> 2) might be more efficient
[11:04] <daveake> do 1)
[11:04] <infaddict> i think the time to do the check is quicker than the set, so agree that is probably best
[11:06] <infaddict> time to dig out the uBlox protocol 8,792 pdf again ;-)
[11:07] <day> what is the disadvantage of the flightmode? less accurate?
[11:07] <edmoore> there are many worse protocols than ublox's receiver description protocol!
[11:08] <daveake> day flightmode is a bit noisier yes
[11:08] <daveake> Upu's code put it back into pedestrian mode before landing
[11:08] <daveake> assuming "land" is below 1500m iirc :)
[11:09] <day> why not switch back sub 12km?
[11:09] <es5nhc> Some QSB and frequency shifting apparent
[11:09] <edmoore> i've honestly never noticed flight mode to be 'too' noisy on the ground
[11:09] <daveake> "too" no
[11:09] <daveake> I just leave it in flight mode all the time and it's been fine
[11:09] <infaddict> edmoore: agreed, very well documented
[11:10] <x-f> SP5ULN in Warsaw got IRBE1, it must be pretty high by now
[11:19] <marcis_> I think it should burst
[11:19] <marcis_> \Hoping that temp change will indicate something
[11:19] <es5nhc> Heh... PIRATS
[11:20] <marcis_> by the way, we are using your gps lib x-f, :)
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[11:21] <happil> Just HOURS to go until the campaign ends! Help 15 year old launch your messages and items into near space: http://kck.st/1M1TldL (We will be using radio telemetry and 2 HD cameras)
[11:22] <JDat> PIRATS is PIRATS...
[11:22] <JDat> nobody knows where he is...
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[11:22] <x-f> marcis_, heh, nice :)
[11:23] <marcis_> |With that I mean - it is set on flight mode
[11:23] <happil> We have 8 hours to go
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[11:25] <x-f> you sure? it just deals with the NMEA parsing
[11:25] <marcis_> I think you were right .....
[11:26] <marcis_> Pnm dg;
[11:26] <gonzo_> bless you
[11:27] <x-f> it's comming down?
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[11:28] <x-f> or not
[11:28] <x-f> it sees some sats again, though
[11:28] <marcis_> wierd
[11:29] <marcis_> 7 sats and no fix
[11:29] <JDat> wait a moment!
[11:29] <JDat> Why thereno fix?
[11:30] <JDat> bad soldering for GPS PSU?
[11:30] <marcis_> 8 sats....
[11:30] <x-f> position updated, too
[11:31] <infaddict> could be code bug. depends how gps fix flag is being set. lots of ways to do it, not just # of sats
[11:31] <infaddict> uBlox actually return a good fix indicator too
[11:31] <SQ5KVS> Hi all
[11:31] <infaddict> and whether its 2d, 3d, assisted etc
[11:31] <SQ5KVS> x-f so now the position is ok?
[11:31] <marcis_> it checks for sats and G3, if i rember correctly
[11:31] <JDat> seems that 2D fix, not 3D fix
[11:32] <JDat> wrong altitude
[11:32] <daveake> I'm pretty sure this has happened before
[11:32] <x-f> SQ5KVS, likely yes
[11:33] <SQ5KVS> ok, because I draw the line from SP5ULN trangulation, but ... :)
[11:34] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/2015_Flights/IRBE1_20150410/
[11:34] <yl3gv> signal fading, may be coming down?
[11:35] <x-f> yep, external temperature is dropping
[11:36] <infaddict> that foil is doing good work only -5 inside.
[11:38] <marcis_> frequency is wobbling
[11:39] <es5nhc__> Ditto
[11:39] <es5nhc__> I was about to ask
[11:39] Nick change: es5nhc__ -> es5nhc
[11:40] <SQ5KVS> But if, very slowly falling .. or not really
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[11:40] <gonzo_> at burts the wobble/fading will probably be quite pronounced
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[11:41] <SQ5KVS> Maybe some SU-xxx was close :)
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[11:44] <x-f> SQ5KVS, wow, just saw your triangulation results, i'm impressed with the accuracy over such distance!
[11:44] <SQ5KVS> No no, it's angle from SP5ULN :)
[11:44] <x-f> well anyway :)
[11:46] <SQ5KVS> SP5ULN reports that he can't receive signal now.
[11:47] Action: es5nhc is still hearing
[11:49] <es5nhc> 12076?!
[11:50] <es5nhc> And the frequency got drunk again
[11:50] <SQ5KVS> dawn
[11:50] <daveake> gps back below 12km then
[11:51] <SQ5KVS> down :)
[11:51] <es5nhc> 11234
[11:51] <es5nhc> Suppose safe to assume burst?
[11:52] <marcis_> so its code problem :(
[11:52] <marcis_> 40deg
[11:52] <craag> coming down a bit slow
[11:52] <es5nhc> Yeah
[11:52] <es5nhc> 11001
[11:52] <gonzo_> marcis_, are you making your way to recover it? With so few receiving stations, you will need to be in position to get the packets as it gets low
[11:53] <es5nhc> Almost in LY-land I see
[11:53] <gonzo_> if you want to have any change of a recivery
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[11:53] <es5nhc> 10544
[11:54] <x-f> IRBE1 launch was a bit windy - http://youtu.be/dPRBPOm_fPs
[11:54] <es5nhc> Frequency has stabilized a bit again
[11:55] <es5nhc> 10141
[11:55] <daveake> That chut doesn't look over-sized for 1.1kg
[11:55] <marcis_> yeah. a little bit
[12:00] <es5nhc> Signal fading here too, naturally
[12:00] <es5nhc> 8433
[12:01] <es5nhc> But yeah, time to hit the road towards Lithuania
[12:01] <marcis_> it is nice because of lack of woods
[12:01] <es5nhc> 8094
[12:03] <es5nhc> Oh well, at least I got to test my outdoor reception setup... Laptop with RDS and antenna is outdoors, and streams audio transcoded to 64 kbps MP3 over Wi-Fi back indoors to another machine that does the decoding and uploading... seems to work.
[12:04] <SQ5KVS> Hm, for me it's time to change frequency for PS-41 (evening)
[12:04] <craag> 64kbps MP3 :/
[12:04] <craag> That's probably not going to do digital data much good
[12:04] <craag> You only need 4KHz mono bandwidth
[12:05] <craag> so streaming wav, at 16-bit, would be 64kbps, with no quality loss!
[12:05] <craag> could stream flac for about 50% less bandwidth than that (lossless compression)
[12:06] <edmoore> i have never been to lithuania
[12:06] <edmoore> latvia and estonia seem to be places that people visit
[12:06] <edmoore> but not lithuania
[12:06] <es5nhc> Well, the tones are at such a low frequencies in the passband... I'd expect higher frequencies take a more serious hit
[12:06] <es5nhc> *baseband
[12:07] <es5nhc> d'oh
[12:07] <es5nhc> The bigger issue has been rather getting a strong enough signal :)
[12:07] <es5nhc> But yeah, the idea to test this was at a moment's notice. I'll see if I can reduce sample rate in gqrx's audio settings
[12:08] <es5nhc> You see... the audio comes from gqrx over UDP to vlc, which then transcodes. Then I can connect to the laptop over WLAN
[12:08] <craag> s/4KHz mono bandwidth/4KHz mono sampling/
[12:09] <craag> WIth would give you ~2KHz audio bandwidth
[12:09] <es5nhc> Not sure it is possible in gqrx
[12:10] <SQ5KVS> Btw, I would ask about the gps module antenna
[12:10] <es5nhc> Signal has faded out here now. I guess I'll pack my stuff, laptop hasn't much battery remaining anyways
[12:10] <es5nhc> So thanks for the flight...
[12:13] <SQ5KVS> with my colleague we bought two ublox (for me 7M, the 5..something for him) . But after few days the gps module stop receiving anything. We discovered that probably the antenna (in both modules) is broken, maybe because of ESD - there was very dry weather and full of esd around
[12:13] <SQ5KVS> Have You any experiences with this?
[12:14] <SQ5KVS> Thanks for the filght, and we will wait for next :)
[12:15] <craag> SQ5KVS: I've heard of people managing to fry the antenna input with ESD, not managed it myself.
[12:16] <craag> But we don't get much dry weather ;)
[12:19] <SQ5KVS> I think so :) But, for example now, I'm produce a lot of sparkles. When I walking in my office. Anyway with another antenna, both works well.
[12:19] <craag> Hmm
[12:20] <craag> well good that they work :)
[12:20] <es5nhc> I've travelled through Lithuania.. last year during my Germany trip(which was a bus trip). Noticed its traffic signs had a similar typeface to ours. And these weird warning signs with a black dot
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[12:22] <es5nhc> It's in Lithuania now
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[12:23] <SQ5KVS> black dot's? maybe they were bullet holes :)
[12:24] <SpeedEvil> That's not black, that's cutting-edge signs supporting alpha.
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[12:29] <x-f> black dot road signs mean that traffic accidents happen there often and without any apparent reason
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[12:31] <pc1pcl> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Road_sign_in_Lithuania.JPG
[12:31] <SQ5KVS> wow irbe has 1km altitude and You have telemetry
[12:31] <pc1pcl> appears to mean 'blind spot'
[12:32] <x-f> JDat, congrats on being the last tracker
[12:32] <daveake> last position at 888m - not bad should be enough for recovery
[12:32] <marcis_> thanks 2 pirate ;)
[12:37] <gonzo_> it would be interesting to plot those black dot signs against locations of pubs
[12:37] <SQ5KVS> MTG004 backs from midnight road :D
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[13:01] <es5nhc> x-f, yeah - what I've found from searching about it, I've gotten some cryptic "danger"
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[13:34] <Laurenceb> black hole
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[13:38] <marcis_> Irbe payload is found by one Lituianian. Working on getting it in our hands ;)
[13:38] <daveake> ha
[13:39] <marcis_> Coordinates looks like predcded, but nut sure yet
[13:44] <SQ5KVS> Is there anyone who trying to hear the ps-41 balloon?
[13:45] <lz1dev> !whereis ps-41
[13:45] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: I haven't got a clue
[13:46] <lz1dev> !whereis PS-41
[13:46] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: I haven't got a clue
[13:46] <lz1dev> !ping ps-41
[13:46] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: No contact from 03ps-41
[13:46] <lz1dev> so the bot is broken
[13:47] <SQ5KVS> hehe
[13:48] <SQ5KVS> locator: FD36
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[13:51] Action: SpacenearUS is going for a nap.
[13:51] Action: SpacenearUS is back!
[13:51] <lz1dev> !ping ps-41
[13:51] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Last contact with 03PS-41 was 0314 hours ago
[13:51] <lz1dev> !ping ps-41
[13:51] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Last contact with 03PS-41 was 0314 hours ago
[13:54] <SQ5KVS> right. But on wspr the last contact was ~12:40 UTC
[13:54] <lz1dev> !whereis ps-41
[13:54] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: 03PS-41 was over 03South Pacific Ocean 10(-46.351,-102.279) at 039356 meters about 0314 hours ago
[13:55] <Laurenceb> fairly high
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[13:55] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[13:55] <Laurenceb> still need m0ar height
[13:55] <SQ5KVS> something wrong with propagation on 20m, where I trying to hear .. maybe the aurora or sth
[13:56] <SQ5KVS> Laurenceb: You thinking that he will crash on patagonia mounains?
[13:57] <Laurenceb> no
[13:57] <Laurenceb> he will crash into a tropical thunderstorm
[13:58] <SQ5KVS> hm,
[14:01] <SQ5KVS> 9356 meters is about 250 hpa
[14:01] <SQ5KVS> so
[14:01] <SQ5KVS> http://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/isobaric/70hPa/orthographic=-30.83,-27.42,408
[14:02] <SQ5KVS> ok, ~300hpa
[14:02] <lz1dev> http://static.rgp.io/2015-04-10_5x077cjt0m.png
[14:02] <lz1dev> there is not thunderstorm
[14:02] <lz1dev> pls
[14:03] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-41 after 0314 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-41
[14:04] <SQ5KVS> Hm I click wrong pressure
[14:04] <lz1dev> nice timing
[14:04] <lz1dev> hysplit so good http://static.rgp.io/2015-04-10_g1enm1of04.png
[14:05] <SQ5KVS> right, going to South Africa maybe
[14:06] <lz1dev> !hysplit rerun ps-41
[14:06] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Running HYSPLIT jobs for all defaults. Hold on to your hats
[14:06] <lz1dev> oh im dumb
[14:06] <lz1dev> oh well
[14:11] <SQ5KVS> So, now its almost half of earth circumference (at this latitude)
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[14:53] <fsphil> oh nice, it's reached chile
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[15:01] <SQ5KVS> Ok, cya!
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[15:52] <kd2eat> Heya... I'm helping out with a launch this weekend for the "Marathon To THe Sky" group in Olean, NY. What is the process for geting their balloon on the Spacenear site? They launch Sunday AM.
[15:53] <kd2eat> They're already on the ARHAB calendar, if that helps.
[15:53] <lz1dev> how are they tracking the balloon ?
[15:53] <kd2eat> APRS
[15:53] <lz1dev> should appear autmatically, once it's launched
[15:54] <kd2eat> kk. I wasn't sure if that was automatic or not. Cool, thanks :-)
[15:58] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[16:33] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KF7LKI-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KF7LKI-11
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[16:35] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KF7LKI-12 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KF7LKI-12
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[17:06] <bradfirj> It's quite impressive that PS-41 is still going
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[17:31] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03WA6EWV-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=WA6EWV-1
[17:34] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03car_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=car_chase
[17:36] <fsphil> it's got a while to go before beating the record
[17:37] <arko> :P
[17:37] <fsphil> plenty of solar power now, maybe we should be listening out on 434.500 ;)
[17:38] <arko> haha
[17:38] <arko> i like to think b-64 is still flying
[17:39] <arko> some say it returned to its origins at the volcano of Eyjafjallajökull
[17:39] <lz1dev> did you faceroll your keyboard for that last part?
[17:40] <arko> i just let me cat walk all over the keyboard
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[17:43] <bradfirj> It's pretty likely those B- balloons are still up but their payload has died from the cold, right?
[17:43] <bradfirj> I'm not exactly an expert on this stuff
[17:43] <bradfirj> Or will they have been torn apart/burst/fell down etc
[17:44] <arko> maybe
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[18:00] <mclane_> good evening everybody
[18:01] <mclane_> I am looking for advice how to use the RFM98 module in LoRa mode
[18:01] <mclane_> (I have succeeded to bring it to a CW carrier)
[18:01] <mclane_> the datasheet is quite confusing
[18:02] <mclane_> can someone point me to some code examples?
[18:02] <es5nhc> Nah, it's just that volcano unpronounceable for may
[18:02] <es5nhc> I mean the Eyjafjallajökull
[18:03] <es5nhc> *for many
[18:03] <arko> i'd love to take an icelandic friend to starbucks and see the baristia try to write and call the name
[18:03] <es5nhc> I think I got the pronunciation after some practice, but I am also a languages geek
[18:06] <Lunar_Lander> hello mclane_
[18:06] <mclane_> hi Lunar_Lander
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[18:26] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03FLYING_PI - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=FLYING_PI
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[18:30] <Flying> Hi all
[18:31] <Flying> my colleague posted earlier some questions whci have all been answered but I'm looking to have a flight doc authorised please?
[18:31] <adamgreig> go to #habhub for flight docs, and paste in the flight doc id
[18:32] <Flying> correct me if I'm wrong but should be
[18:32] <Flying> 666dd23844cdaa1c0b07c4bba2acbb3e
[18:32] <adamgreig> #habhub is the right channel to ask for flight doc approvals in, but it looks like your payload is currently untested
[18:32] <adamgreig> you should try sending telemetry through to the system now that you have a payload doc and check it parses it OK
[18:33] <adamgreig> once it's parsed some example telemetry we can approve the flight
[18:33] <Flying> I am collecting data from the payload at the moment
[18:33] <adamgreig> i take it back, looks like the issue is that your flight document references the wrong payload :P
[18:33] <Flying> and uploading as we speak
[18:33] <Flying> ahhh
[18:34] <adamgreig> 666dd23844cdaa1c0b07c4bba2a957fd is the payload document for your new payload it looks like (thanks lz1dev)
[18:34] <adamgreig> and that's what's being parsed right now
[18:34] <adamgreig> so you should update the flight document to use that one instead
[18:34] <adamgreig> then give us the new flight document ID
[18:34] <Flying> f5794cc42395aa9285d1d681b42c3e0f
[18:35] <Flying> that shouldbe it?
[18:35] <Flying> excuse my naivety
[18:35] <lz1dev> !id f5794cc42395aa9285d1d681b42c3e0f
[18:35] <SpacenearUS> Flight 03Flying Pi 10(f5794cc42395aa9285d1d681b42c3e0f, not approved, 1 payload)
[18:35] <SpacenearUS> Project 03Flying Pi by 03Flying Pi
[18:35] <SpacenearUS> Window: 03Today at 23:00 UTC to 03Sunday at 22:59 UTC 10(Europe/London, +1)
[18:35] <SpacenearUS> Launch: 03Tomorrow at 11:00 UTC from 03Castle Kennedy Airfield, Stranraer  10(54.90139,-4.9439)
[18:35] <SpacenearUS> Raw: 12http://habitat.habhub.org/habitat/f5794cc42395aa9285d1d681b42c3e0f
[18:35] <SpacenearUS> Payload parse status: 031 untested 10(57fd)
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[18:40] <adamgreig> hmm well it looks like the parser is actually using 9d700bfc4fea0a619c173a4b0cb5a61c as your payload ID
[18:40] <adamgreig> is that the latest or..
[18:41] <adamgreig> yea it is
[18:41] <adamgreig> ok sorry Flying, could you have the flight doc use 9d700bfc4fea0a619c173a4b0cb5a61c please?
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[18:42] <DL7AD> goof evening
[18:42] <DL7AD> is somebody here form poland?
[18:43] <Flying> I'm confused over what to do then
[18:46] <adamgreig> sorry, this part is slightly confusing
[18:46] <adamgreig> the correct payload ID to use is 9d700bfc4fea0a619c173a4b0cb5a61c, your latest
[18:46] <adamgreig> your original and second flight documents contained an older payload ID, so it won't do what you want and thinks it's untested
[18:46] <adamgreig> you should create a flight doc (using ..from existing on genpayload) with the payload ID 9d700bfc4fea0a619c173a4b0cb5a61c and save it
[18:48] <Flying> new doc id f5794cc42395aa9285d1d681b45e96e4
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[18:49] <adamgreig> that's a payload document, not a flight document
[18:51] <Flying> and we are finally there
[18:51] <Flying> f5794cc42395aa9285d1d681b46cd3e5
[18:51] <adamgreig> great haha
[18:51] <adamgreig> approved
[18:51] <adamgreig> sorry about that
[18:51] <adamgreig> all good now I think
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[18:54] <Flying> thank you very much
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[19:03] Action: SpacenearUS is going for a nap.
[19:03] Action: SpacenearUS is back!
[19:06] happil (545c7455@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.92.116.85) joined #highaltitude.
[19:06] <happil> Just half an hour 2go! Make 15 year old's dream reality and send stuff into near space: http://kck.st/1M1TldL
[19:07] Action: SpacenearUS is going for a nap.
[19:07] Action: SpacenearUS is back!
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[19:08] <SP9UOB-Tom> evening all
[19:08] <happil> Hello!
[19:09] <happil> Would you be able to help the Project Hermes campaign at http://kck.st/1M1TldL
[19:09] <DL7AD> SP9UOB-Tom: http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypub-bin/trajresults.pl?jobidno=134952
[19:09] <happil> We are not making money, it's a crowdfunded initiative by teenagers to launch a HAB.
[19:16] <happil> We have 14 minutes left
[19:17] <happil> I'd really appreciate any help to make up the remaining hundred and a bit!
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[19:20] <daveake> Get your parents to buy one VIP package each. Job jobbed :)
[19:21] <Lunar_Lander> :D
[19:21] <Lunar_Lander> what do you need 1.5k for?
[19:22] <happil> We are looking for the funding for two HD cameras
[19:23] <happil> Plus advanced tracking, amazing backer rewards
[19:23] <happil> Please, we need £89 remaining
[19:24] <happil> I've already got pledges from friends, family, etcetera
[19:24] <happil> I need to make up this final bit!
[19:25] <happil> We have 5 minutes remaining
[19:25] <happil> We are using radio telemetry, I need your help if you can
[19:26] <adamgreig> seems like a profitable moment to back the last £89 yourself to get the other £1411 ;)
[19:26] <happil> It's not like that... I'm not looking to make a profit on this
[19:26] <happil> Plus I have no time to do that
[19:27] <happil> THANKS SO MUCH TO NICK JOHNSON FROM UKHAS
[19:27] <happil> btw nick if you up it to 100 you can get the epic reward.. just saying
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[19:29] <daveake> dunno if nick has launched, but if so then the epic reward probably isn't that epic for him
[19:30] <happil> We're through
[19:30] <happil> Thanks so much.
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[19:30] <daveake> bye have fun
[19:31] <fsphil> he's happil and we know it
[19:31] <fsphil> kickstarter is such a strange thing
[19:31] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[19:32] <fsphil> not sure I've spent £1500 on all my launches so far
[19:32] <daveake> if you're happil and you know it plan your habs
[19:32] <mattbrejza> the first one is always the most expensive
[19:33] <adamgreig> you put everythign in it and lose it, right? ;)
[19:33] <mattbrejza> you first buy the wrong radios and have to buy new ones
[19:33] <fsphil> I cheated, hitched a lift on someone elses flight for my first one
[19:33] <Lunar_Lander> :D
[19:33] <mattbrejza> it just fitted in a 40x40x40cm box or so...
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[19:34] <Lunar_Lander> 210 Euro went down for buying a stabo XR100 and then a FT-790R
[19:34] <Lunar_Lander> one maybe would have been enough
[19:34] <fsphil> I don't remember what radio I had then
[19:35] <mattbrejza> linux flight computer...
[19:35] <daveake> AR8000 here
[19:35] <mattbrejza> tnc board
[19:35] <mattbrejza> etc
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[19:35] <daveake> full fat arduino
[19:35] <fsphil> ft817 I think
[19:35] <mattbrejza> picaxe senors board
[19:35] <fsphil> payload was a huge DIP atmega644p
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[19:36] <fsphil> and a buggy live image attempt
[19:36] <daveake> I thought mine was large - 28cm cube
[19:36] <mattbrejza> http://gallery.apexhab.org/Apex-I/Finishing_Touches/Payload
[19:37] <daveake> and padding bug
[19:37] <fsphil> oh yes, wasn't that the one that got lost?
[19:37] <daveake> inserted the dat before, ofc
[19:37] <adamgreig> http://hackaday.com/2010/03/17/arduino-balloon-tracking/
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[19:37] <mattbrejza> yea, managed to have one scooped out the sea in under 4 days, but land a massive thing somewhere in the uk and it vanishes
[19:38] <daveake> hah
[19:38] <fsphil> hah, https://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/4413270817/
[19:38] <adamgreig> our old old lab ;(
[19:39] <daveake> "Are there FCC issues with that Radiometrix NTX2 narrowband FM module? The site for the module says the standard frequencies are 434.075MHz, 434.650MHz and 458.700MHz."
[19:39] <daveake> lol
[19:40] <mattbrejza> FCC is the global rf regulator
[19:40] <mattbrejza> didnt you know?
[19:41] <mikestir> they haven't invented radio outside of the us yet though - only dragons there
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[19:43] <adamgreig> hey does anyone know how well audio transformers actually provide good isolation between a PC and an amateur radio?
[19:43] <SpeedEvil> Ideally several kilovolts
[19:43] <adamgreig> I get that OK you get galvanic isolation, no ground loops, thus hopefully no hum and also the DC levels can be different, yay
[19:43] <adamgreig> but it seems like sad transient events will go right through and give you a bad time?
[19:43] <SpeedEvil> Blikely, yes
[19:44] <SpeedEvil> If you want stupid isolation, you can go optical
[19:44] <adamgreig> right perhaps
[19:44] <SpeedEvil> Or bluetooth
[19:44] <adamgreig> or the ADuM chips are quite nice
[19:44] <SpeedEvil> yeah - for actual specified isolation
[19:44] <adamgreig> but they're an air gap transformer still
[19:44] <adamgreig> they do an ADuM that does USB isolation which is quite clever
[19:44] <SpeedEvil> fibre or bluetooth can get you gigavolts
[19:44] <adamgreig> but I suspect it's vulnerable to the same thing really
[19:45] <mikestir> transformer and TVS?
[19:45] <adamgreig> TVS on the radio side?
[19:45] <mikestir> yeah
[19:45] <adamgreig> hmm yea I guess that would solve my problem entirely really
[19:45] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Toslink-Optical-Coaxial-Digital-Signal-to-Analog-Audio-Converter-Adapter-DAC-RCA-/161452999490?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2597594342
[19:46] <mikestir> might introduce some non-linearity, but since you're not after hi-fi...
[19:46] <adamgreig> well you're still out of luck if lightning hits the radio antenna I guess
[19:46] <adamgreig> but whatever, other things are meant to deal with that
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[19:46] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bluetooth-Transmitter-Sender-A2DP-3-5mm-Stereo-Audio-Music-Adapter-Dongle-TV-MP3-/271399328955?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3f30a91cbb
[19:47] <adamgreig> yea bluetooth's not a bad idea
[19:47] <adamgreig> I'd want serial and a PTT line too ideally but easy enough to do bluetooth serial links
[19:47] <mikestir> convert to toslink and back is a good one. I have one of those DACs that SpeedEvil linked to - works pretty well
[19:48] <adamgreig> torn between several good options for hooking a computer to my radio really
[19:48] <mikestir> mine's just plugged straight in
[19:48] <adamgreig> have in the past destroyed my old motherboard's integrated audio plugging it in directly so am a little cautious
[19:48] <adamgreig> once burned twice etc
[19:48] <adamgreig> and laptop integrated audio a bit harder to circumvent. probably just using a usb sound card would provide sufficient isolation really
[19:49] <adamgreig> but I want serial for CAT and PTT too, at which point I want a little box with one USB connection that does both
[19:49] <SpeedEvil> Tehre are ways to automate your radio - put it in a remote box
[19:49] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm//131476926907
[19:49] <adamgreig> haha omg yes
[19:49] <adamgreig> and a microphone to its speaker eh
[19:49] <adamgreig> so I could USB isolate, then a USB hub and a USB-serial chip and a USB audio codec chip...
[19:49] <adamgreig> or just an stm32 running both endpoints, but then I have to write soundcard firmware for it which sounds dull
[19:49] <mikestir> i'm sure I've seen this in an advert in radcom
[19:50] <adamgreig> there's like the tigertronics signallink which looks nice
[19:50] <adamgreig> but it doesn't do rigCAT, just audio and PTT
[19:50] <adamgreig> it uses audio transformers for isolation (and a relay for PTT)
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[19:51] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Provided the two chassis are well connected before plugging in do you expect many spikes out from the radio ?
[19:51] <adamgreig> I don't think I can provide for that
[19:51] <adamgreig> laptop in a desert sort of situation
[19:52] <adamgreig> audio cables definitely don't provide for that :P
[19:52] <adamgreig> not sure whether to go the whole hog and make a PCB with a USB isolator, isolated DC-DC converter, USB hub chip, USB codec chip, USB serial chip
[19:52] <adamgreig> or buy a box and pot a small USB hub, a small USB sound card and a small USB serial port, heh
[19:53] <adamgreig> rigcat is a bit annoying to isolate too as it uses one line bidirectionally
[19:53] <SpeedEvil> I2C isolators might work?
[19:54] <mikestir> isolate the serial and power the rigcat interface from the radio side
[19:54] <adamgreig> yea that could work - though the DATA connection rarely provides power?
[19:54] <adamgreig> on mine I think only ACC does
[19:55] <mikestir> or use a little isolated switcher
[19:55] <adamgreig> not that I can figure out whether I should be using DATA or ACC anyway lol
[19:55] <adamgreig> right, isolated switcher is easy enough
[19:55] <adamgreig> ACC has modulator input and audio output; DATA has 'data input' and 1200bps and 9600bps audio outputs
[19:55] <adamgreig> but good luck working out what any of them actually do in reality. the manual vaguely mentions that the DATA one is for packet work and ACC is for PSK
[19:56] <mikestir> I was thinking about designing this box a while back but it's still too far down the list. I might take a pcb if you design it
[19:56] <adamgreig> right, I've vaguely wanted one for ages
[19:56] <mikestir> I think I'd decided the STM32 to do everything option was most flexible
[19:56] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Plug a SDR dongle in!
[19:56] <adamgreig> Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: haha, yea, that works very well too
[19:56] <adamgreig> but I want to get _some_ use out of my "real" radio
[19:56] <adamgreig> and it has the 100W PA built in
[19:57] <adamgreig> whereas my motley assortment of SDRs can TX at best 10mW ;)
[19:57] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Ah that's were the spikes will come from then!
[19:57] <adamgreig> haha indeed
[19:57] <adamgreig> mikestir: right, it does!
[19:57] <adamgreig> but writing firmware makes it take 10x longer and 10x more effort
[19:57] <adamgreig> and I'm not sure how good you can do audio in/out on the stm32 compared to a USB codec chip
[19:57] <adamgreig> which do USB to 48kHz 24 bit audio or whatever, with drivers that Just Work etc
[19:57] <mikestir> I've been doing audio IO to ethernet on it and it's fine
[19:58] <mikestir> hard part is dealing with async clocks, which might still be an issue with usb
[19:58] <adamgreig> given you only need to output like 3kHz of audio, lol
[19:58] <mikestir> for a radio you could just drop/duplicate the odd sample
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[19:58] <adamgreig> right, yea
[19:58] Nick change: gary -> Guest41440
[19:59] <mikestir> not sure about usb audio class though - I guess it uses isoc endpoints
[19:59] <adamgreig> it's not that hard to put a USB hub IC + FTDI serial IC + USB audio codec IC on a PCB either though
[19:59] <adamgreig> not sure you lose much doing that
[19:59] <mikestir> no porbably not
[19:59] <mikestir> *probably
[19:59] <adamgreig> bit more expensive
[19:59] <adamgreig> use the serial's DTR as the PTT line
[19:59] <adamgreig> few people on the internet have things: http://microsat.com.pl/product_info.php?products_id=48 http://www.microham.com/contents/en-us/d158_U3.html
[19:59] <adamgreig> I'd not seen these before actually, only ones that were audio or CAT but not both
[19:59] <mikestir> don't leave serial PTT permanently connected though - I found out about that the hard way
[20:00] <adamgreig> oh, stops you doing manual PTT?
[20:00] <mikestir> something or other grabbed the port and left the rig keyed for half an hour
[20:00] <adamgreig> oh lol
[20:00] <adamgreig> oops
[20:00] <mikestir> and it seems the mic isn't muted either on this rig
[20:00] <adamgreig> haha ah yes
[20:00] <adamgreig> I think that's a "feature"
[20:02] <mikestir> some of the NXP ARMs have USB drivers in ROM - I used one on something in work and it was quite good. still prefer stm32 but it might be worth a look
[20:02] <mikestir> can't remember if they had audio - definitely MSC and CDC
[20:03] <adamgreig> neat
[20:03] <adamgreig> dunno why you wouldn't just give some example firmware at that point though
[20:03] <adamgreig> copy-paste this C library...
[20:03] <mikestir> they do, but they put it in ROM on some of them
[20:03] <mikestir> I think it's basically the same firmware
[20:03] <mikestir> just saves space in the flash
[20:03] <adamgreig> ah fe
[20:04] <mikestir> NXP's libraries are actually not that bad either, unlike 99% of semi vendor software
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[20:05] <adamgreig> any thoughts on why most of these commercial options have TX and RX level pots?
[20:05] <adamgreig> seems an awkward place to set levels compared to doing it on your computer or digitally or something
[20:05] <adamgreig> ok bla bla digitally reduces resolution but not really
[20:06] <pc1pcl> computer might expect microphone or line level, and over/under driving it makes it hard to get it right later.
[20:06] <SpeedEvil> Because doing it in software means you have to write something to configure it on all the various OS out there, and do a driver, and add digital pots
[20:06] <adamgreig> I mean in your radio software (or your OS volume control)
[20:06] <adamgreig> not like, doing it in the firmware on the device with USB control
[20:06] <adamgreig> (though I did consider that too, but like you say it's a mess)
[20:07] <adamgreig> pc1pcl: I guess I'd have hoped radios might output roughly line level on their audio output pins
[20:07] <pc1pcl> well the radio is probably old and dumb, or you wouldn't need a separate box to interfaceit as it would come with a buildin usb port
[20:07] <mikestir> I'm always a bit suspicious of digital level controls - seems too hard to determine what settings are actually 0dB on a lot of codecs
[20:07] <mikestir> not an issue for this application though - only for hi-fi
[20:07] <adamgreig> yea
[20:08] <pc1pcl> adamgreig: what the radio outputs might not be what the computer needs and vice versa.
[20:08] <adamgreig> pc1pcl: I guess so! but if you're just using a pot to attenuate you can only correct for the radio overdriving anyway
[20:08] <adamgreig> I guess I would have hoped the radio outputs line level and the computer desires line level, seems reasonable
[20:08] <adamgreig> if that's not the case then I guess I see why things put pots on :P
[20:08] <mikestir> line level isn't really a standard though on consumer gear
[20:08] <pc1pcl> I use a cheap usb dongle (to avoid blowing up laptop inputs with my experiments), it has only mic in
[20:08] <mikestir> that's probably the root of the problem
[20:09] <adamgreig> pc1pcl: ah, and not line in, I see your point
[20:09] <pc1pcl> and yeah line levels are different betwene consumer, and semi-pro gear.
[20:09] <adamgreig> sure, but for consumer they're roughly the same sort of 1V pk-pk?
[20:09] <mikestir> pro gear is 0dBm in 600 ohms, so should be consistent
[20:10] <mikestir> I thought consumer was commonly 1V rms? certainly 1V pk-pk seems low
[20:10] <adamgreig> perhaps it's rms
[20:10] <pc1pcl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level#Nominal_levels
[20:10] <adamgreig> .9V pk-pk, I guess I was pretty close :P
[20:12] <mikestir> I still think that seems low
[20:12] <adamgreig> I want a smaller box than would allow two pots, but I guess trimpots or something would work
[20:12] <adamgreig> or maybe I just won't get my small box wish :P
[20:13] <mikestir> i2c pots
[20:13] <mikestir> those ones with the built in eeprom
[20:13] <adamgreig> yea but then as SpeedEvil says, how do you control them?
[20:13] <mikestir> with your stm32 that you're going to be writing all this software for :)
[20:13] <adamgreig> gotta write drivers and ugh
[20:13] <adamgreig> but from the host computer?
[20:14] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03JACKAL - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=JACKAL
[20:14] <SpeedEvil> esp8266 + webpage + 'the cloud'
[20:14] <mikestir> mixer controls. oh wait - just use a usb to codec bridge
[20:14] <mikestir> IoT
[20:14] <adamgreig> SpeedEvil: haha oh no
[20:14] <SpeedEvil> Doing it all in the esp8266 with an audio codec might not be insane
[20:14] <SpeedEvil> SIP radio?
[20:14] <adamgreig> mikestir: oh nice. of course. just have the stm32 implement the audio endpoint and the volume control commands change the digipots
[20:15] <adamgreig> SpeedEvil: bit of a pain to make that work with most desktop radio software though
[20:15] <adamgreig> which want to just talk to sound cards
[20:15] <mikestir> yeah, but aside from having a bit more flexibility you'd have just implemented a bog standard usb sound card
[20:15] <adamgreig> right, which is why I was mostly looking at just getting a usb codec chip, they're like £5
[20:15] <Ian_> Google "cctv balun" they are good for audio data from the radio. A pair and an opto isolator/coupler give you tx/rx and ptt galvanic isolation. Four of them and yards of cat5 cable in between using in-band ptt (tone and filter) will give you remote operation.
[20:16] <adamgreig> that's basically just an audio transformer?
[20:17] <Ian_> The mini din plug on the 1200 pin is simple, the higher speed pin I think may have a DC level upon it, so a coupling/blocking capacitor is a good move
[20:17] <Ian_> Yes essentially an audio transformer.
[20:17] <Ian_> Obviously works from audio to 5MHz video baseband
[20:17] <Ian_> I use it for SSTV
[20:17] <Ian_> etc
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[20:50] <adamgreig> mikestir: perhaps stm32 with usb audio going out over i2s to a decent codec?
[20:50] <adamgreig> skip the onboard dac/adc to get the higher resolution of an i2s codec
[20:50] <adamgreig> but stm32 can do the serial and you no longer need a usb hub chip and you can program extras in if you want too
[20:50] <mikestir> the ethernet-based thing I've been working on is using an external i2s codec
[20:51] <mikestir> it's for multiroom audio links
[20:51] <adamgreig> seems like there are lots of nice i2s codecs
[20:51] <adamgreig> AD do one for just £4 that is like, 24 bit, 90dB SNR, etc
[20:51] <adamgreig> wolfson have a few things that'l beat that up too
[20:51] <mikestir> the name you used to want was wolfson, but they got bought by cirrus logic
[20:51] <mikestir> snap
[20:51] <adamgreig> oh huh?
[20:51] <adamgreig> always seen lots of nice wolfson audio things
[20:52] <adamgreig> did getting bought by cirrus make them bad, or just change the names?
[20:52] <mikestir> actually I'm probably going to use a new cirrus logic part which actually looks better than the best wolfson ones on paper
[20:52] <adamgreig> haha nice
[20:52] <mikestir> of course my app needs decent quality
[20:52] <adamgreig> right, hifi and all
[20:52] <adamgreig> I like to imagine ham radio things would benefit from 24bit over 16bit
[20:52] <adamgreig> but it's hard to quantify really
[20:53] <adamgreig> well. it's not. it's all numbers. but it's hard for me to justify guesses :P
[20:53] <adamgreig> whereas the required sampling rate is somewhat easier to put my finger on
[20:53] <mikestir> probably the best reason for having 24-bit on a codec is so you can do digital gain control
[20:53] <adamgreig> this AD part has PGAs builtin too
[20:53] <mikestir> the number of bits just governs the dynamic range - 6dB per bit nominally
[20:54] <mikestir> of course you can trade bits for sample rate as well
[20:54] <adamgreig> right, and assuming fldigi doesn't resample to 8bit audio, that's going to go well
[20:54] <mattbrejza> your transformer idea has evolved somewhat
[20:54] <mikestir> hence sigma delta modulators
[20:54] <adamgreig> sure yea
[20:55] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: you still need an audio source and sink with or without transformers..
[20:55] <adamgreig> not plugging this into my microphone port :P
[20:55] <mattbrejza> lol im sure theres a good reason ;)
[20:55] <adamgreig> somewhat prefer the idea of having an stm32 do the usb bits rather than the slightly derpy hub + ftdi + codec business
[20:55] <adamgreig> but having to write firmware for it is a turnoff
[20:56] <mikestir> http://uk.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Cirrus-Logic/CS4270-CZZ/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuYaq4aOfOV%252bOKMWebeBrwG
[20:56] <mikestir> this is the codec I've been looking at
[20:57] <adamgreig> looks nice
[20:57] <adamgreig> I was amused to discover that my icom ic7k uses an audio codec as its ADC and DAC for the IF DSP
[20:57] <adamgreig> (and another for the AF DSP)
[20:57] <adamgreig> a little surprised they didn't just use left/right channels for IF/AF, hah
[20:58] <adamgreig> (instead they stick the signal into both left and right channels, maybe doing something clever)
[20:58] <mikestir> probably wanted different sample rates
[20:58] <adamgreig> guess so
[20:58] <mikestir> or too much hassle to de-interleave the two completely unrelated channels in the software
[20:58] <adamgreig> the IF is at 16kHz so works quite nicely with an audio codec that can happily sample at 192kHz lol
[20:59] <adamgreig> they have two separate DSP ICs, one for AF one for IF, so that's probably to do with it too :P
[20:59] <adamgreig> I was kind of expecting to find that the DSP modules had ADC/DACs or they had separate ADC/DACs but yea, an audio codec makes sense I guess
[20:59] <adamgreig> shrug
[20:59] <adamgreig> that cirrus one looks nice
[21:00] <mikestir> yeah. need to get a board designed for it - developing on a disco board for now
[21:00] <adamgreig> using stm32 and i2s?
[21:00] <mikestir> yeah. the disco board has some low-end DAC/headphone amp combo
[21:00] <mikestir> no input though
[21:00] <adamgreig> hmm
[21:01] <adamgreig> my disco board has a MEMS microphone that does PDM I think but no DAC except the one built in to the stm32
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[21:01] <mikestir> are you sure? is it the original F407 one?
[21:01] <mikestir> has a headphone jack?
[21:01] <adamgreig> not got it with me any more, but not sure
[21:02] <adamgreig> mostly I ended up buying nucleo boards instead
[21:02] <arko> the headphone jack doesnt have a mic
[21:02] <bradfirj> I have an F4 discovery board here
[21:02] <mikestir> well that one has the MEMS mic and the headphone output - the latter is I2S
[21:02] <bradfirj> delivered today
[21:02] <arko> i can confirm this as i tried
[21:02] <arko> mems is pdm
[21:02] <bradfirj> what would you like me to confirm? :p
[21:02] <arko> err, i mean i looked at the schematic
[21:03] <mikestir> bradfirj: which one? there are a few now
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[21:03] <bradfirj> F407 mcu, mems audio, accelerometer
[21:03] <bradfirj> That's what it's got on the front
[21:03] <bradfirj> further assesment will be performed once I can get the bugger out of the plastic package
[21:04] <arko> audio in is a digital sensor, the only way to do audio in is through an adc
[21:04] <mikestir> yeah that sounds like the original one. mems mic is PDM, headphone jack uses the low-end DAC over i2s
[21:04] <arko> yeah
[21:04] <mikestir> the quality of the DAC output isn't bad though for dev purposes
[21:05] <arko> i think its some cypress audio dac
[21:05] <arko> i cant remember
[21:05] <bradfirj> I've got a cirrus QFN down by the jack here
[21:05] <arko> cirrus
[21:05] <arko> thats it
[21:05] <arko> starts with a c :P
[21:05] <mikestir> cs43l22
[21:06] <arko> 24bit is pretty nice
[21:06] <arko> fancy
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[21:06] <mikestir> it's ok for direct headphone driver. probably loses a bit if you prefer line level into a hifi amp
[21:07] <bradfirj> same box I received today contained an F0 discovery too, time to fingerpoke that as well
[21:07] <mikestir> you want the f429 one
[21:07] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03K6RPT-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K6RPT-11
[21:08] <mikestir> easy enough to cobble together an mp3 player on the 407 disco board
[21:08] <mikestir> barely tickles it
[21:09] <bradfirj> Plenty of poke in the M4
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[21:20] <TT7> Hello everybody
[21:21] <TT7> has anyone tried modeling the temperature inside a payload throughout the flight?
[21:21] <adamgreig> I tried modelling the temperature inside the balloon during a flight once
[21:21] <adamgreig> never again
[21:22] <TT7> how did you implement the decreasing pressure into the equations? or did you managed to do it?
[21:22] <adamgreig> well you can implement the us standard atmosphere model to get a pressure at any given altitude
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[21:24] <TT7> I know that. What I mean is: I have been using this equation Q=»*S*(”T/d)*Ä but it doesn't take into account the lower density of air at altitudes
[21:25] <adamgreig> well your delta T is going to be against current atmospheric temperature which also depends on atmospheric pressure and stuff anyway
[21:26] <adamgreig> it's a fairly tricky thing to model very accurately
[21:26] <TT7> this gives me the heat that goes through the foam, but it is only dependent on the temperature outside
[21:26] <cambazz> hello, i just received my package from hab.supplies with the uBLOX MAX-M8C Pico gps board, but i can not seem to find code for it. how do we read from this thing with i2c?
[21:27] <mikestir> cambazz: do you really need to use i2c?
[21:29] <TT7> well, the energy from the payload is being picked up by individual atoms. surely it will influence the amount of heat disappearing from the payload when there's less atoms to take that energy. and this is not reflected in the equation above
[21:30] <adamgreig> probably gets built in to one of those constants
[21:31] <cambazz> mikestir: no not really, but it would be nice. i also want to learn how to. i could put that on a software serial port.
[21:32] <mikestir> cambazz: Assuming the max8c is the same as the earlier ones it pretty much just exports a uart via a fifo in a single i2c register
[21:32] <TT7> I don't think so. From what I have been able to find out, lambda changes only a little with temperature. The rest is just time, diameter and area.
[21:32] <mikestir> the reason I asked if you really need it it is that it is essentially the same as using the uart, but a load more effort
[21:33] <mikestir> however, if you only have one hardware serial port then it might be worth it - this is why I did it
[21:36] <cambazz> mikestir: i think i am in a similar situation. but i think i need to learn much more about the gps. like what is a GPRMC command?
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[21:37] <mikestir> if you're writing it in C and you're going to do it properly then I'd recommend switching to UBX, because you can map GPS messages directly onto C structs
[21:38] <mikestir> http://www.u-blox.com/images/downloads/Product_Docs/u-bloxM8_ReceiverDescriptionProtocolSpec_%28UBX-13003221%29_Public.pdf
[21:40] <mikestir> but if you want to stick with NMEA then you still need that same doc
[21:40] <cambazz> ok i am going to have to digest this information.
[21:40] <cambazz> nmea is the serial protocol that sends the gps coords right?
[21:41] <mikestir> nmea is the $GPRMC,blah,blah*1234 one
[21:41] <mikestir> UBX is a binary protocol proprietary to ublox
[21:41] <mikestir> that binary string you send to enable flight mode is a ubx command
[21:42] <mikestir> it's nice in that you can write a little state machine to decode messages into a buffer, then just cast the buffer to a structure for the corresponding message
[21:43] <mikestir> if you don't understand what I mean by that then probably stick with parsing the nmea for now
[21:45] <mikestir> and get it working over the serial connection first - since the data format is the same you can always switch to i2c later
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[21:46] <peterbjo1nx> So, i'm launching my HAB tomorrow but i'm a little scared it might not burst
[21:46] <adamgreig> what makes you worry?
[21:49] <cambazz> mikestir: no i understand. i have some experience with doing serial protocols.
[21:49] <cambazz> what is `enabling flight mode`
[21:50] <cambazz> you send an initial code to the gps, to configure it?
[21:51] <peterbjo1nx> adamgreig: well, were planning to fill it with less than the allowed 4 m^3 of helium in order to achieve a higher (34km) burst alt
[21:51] <peterbjo1nx> is the randomengineering burst calc reliable?
[21:51] <adamgreig> haha well
[21:51] <adamgreig> long story
[21:52] <adamgreig> but the short answer is that your balloon will burst
[21:52] <adamgreig> what goes up, etc
[21:52] <mikestir> cambazz: yes - it refers to it in that reference manual as "dynamic model". you need to set it to one of the airborne models otherwise the altitude reading will max out
[21:53] <peterbjo1nx> yeah well i dont want it to end up somewhere in mongolia
[21:53] <SA6BSS> cambazz: http://ava.upuaut.net/?p=738
[21:54] <adamgreig> peterbjo1nx: people try very hard to manage that! what balloon are you using?
[21:54] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03EI2KK_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=EI2KK_chase
[21:55] <peterbjo1nx> pawan cpr-1200
[21:55] <peterbjo1nx> payload is about 2kg
[21:55] <adamgreig> oh yeah real easy
[21:55] <adamgreig> that should be fine
[21:55] <adamgreig> shooting for circa 2.3m³ He?
[21:55] <adamgreig> lol hang on, I missed a 0
[21:56] <cambazz> thanks mikestir, and SA6BSS
[21:56] <adamgreig> what _are_ you planning on? with a 1200g balloon and 2000g payload I don't see 34km altitude working out
[21:57] <peterbjo1nx> adamgreig: according to re.co.uk thingey 3.234 cu m of He
[21:58] <adamgreig> peterbjo1nx: so these things always burst eventually, and obviously less gas makes them burst later/higher/further away
[21:58] <peterbjo1nx> 3.5m/s ascent rate
[21:58] <adamgreig> should be fine tbh
[21:59] <adamgreig> bit slow
[21:59] <adamgreig> usually aim for 5m/s up
[21:59] <daveake> Why that slow? As Steve's calculator says "( 4.0 to 6.0m/sec is typical )"
[21:59] <peterbjo1nx> daveake: because we are trying to maximize altitude
[21:59] <daveake> With other payload/balloon combinations you'd risk a floater at 3.5, but not with that
[22:00] <daveake> Yet you bought a Pawan :/
[22:00] <peterbjo1nx> i didnt, my sponsor did :s
[22:00] <daveake> same difference
[22:00] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03D-8 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=D-8
[22:00] <daveake> Not the best make or size fo altitude
[22:00] <peterbjo1nx> what's the risk ?
[22:00] <peterbjo1nx> early burst?
[22:01] <daveake> Totex are good for bursting at spec
[22:01] <daveake> Hwoyees are good for sometimes surprising you by going a fair bit higher
[22:01] <daveake> Pawans do neither
[22:02] <peterbjo1nx> like i said, pawan wasnt my choice either, but im stuck with it now
[22:02] <daveake> It'll be fine but it'd surprise me if it hit 34km
[22:02] <DL7AD_> tomorrow 6-7 UTC there will be launched balloon D-8 east of berlin
[22:02] <daveake> but you might get lucky
[22:02] <peterbjo1nx> ok
[22:03] <DL7AD_> APRS: AF5LI-11 on 144.800 MHz, DominoEX22 on 434.500 MHz USB, Backup Globalstar.
[22:03] <daveake> if you do want to get it high, can you lose any weight? 2kg is pretty heavy
[22:03] <peterbjo1nx> what kind of an estimate would you give for the altitude then
[22:03] <DL7AD_> its a solar balloon
[22:03] <daveake> Not seen enough fly to know
[22:04] <peterbjo1nx> ah. ok
[22:04] <peterbjo1nx> so, 3.5m/s is not a floater risk?
[22:04] <daveake> with 2kg hanging from it, I doubt it
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[22:06] <peterbjo1nx> so do i need to install a heater wire to the balloon neck to abort the flight incase of floating?
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[22:07] <daveake> Launching tomorrow? Bit late to be making that sort of change.
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[22:09] <peterbjo1nx> well, we're in a late night hackathon already so wouldn't matter
[22:10] <adamgreig> you'll be fine
[22:10] <adamgreig> it'l burst
[22:10] <adamgreig> probably not late
[22:10] <adamgreig> if you have the helium around, I'd shoot for more like 4m/s anyway
[22:10] <peterbjo1nx> well, if we do that it might burst at a lower alt
[22:10] <daveake> yeah me too
[22:11] <peterbjo1nx> and we can't fill above 4kg
[22:11] <daveake> Why do you particularly want max alt ?
[22:11] <adamgreig> yea it probably will but it'l be easier to recover and honestly the extra km or two won't make much difference
[22:11] <daveake> The pictures aren't any different
[22:11] <daveake> you do geta bit more time at altitude but that's it
[22:15] Nick change: Upu- -> Upu
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[23:17] <cambazz> hello. so I got 4 36inch qualatex round mylar baloons. there is a helium chart on the company site which states it can lift 66g. what would be the burst altitude for those baloons.
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[23:35] <cambazz> well there is a study done at http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:splat with the same mylar baloons, but the conclusions are only for payload weight, helium vol vs ascent rate
[23:41] <peterbjo1nx> how do we have to control the balloon while filling it?
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[23:47] <SpeedEvil> peterbjo1nx: Don't let go.
[23:48] <SpeedEvil> cambazz: they burst once they hit a given differential presssure.
[23:48] <SpeedEvil> Under a certain free lift, they will not burst readilyy
[23:49] <SpeedEvil> the free lift tolerable goes up as the fill volume decreases
[23:50] <cambazz> SpeedEvil: i understood the differential pressure. the other two sentences i have not.
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> Free lift = how much lift the balloon and payload has
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> that is - if you hook it to a scale, what do you measure
[23:50] <cambazz> like how can i calculate if my payload is 12 gr, and i fill the balloon with for example 18gr lift amount of helium.
[23:51] <cambazz> and where do we put baloon weight in this? the 36" qualatex baloon ihas 37gr own weight, and the helium chart says it can lift 66gr
[23:51] <SpeedEvil> cambazz: The simplest lowest figure is to work out the altitude at which the balloon becomes taut - it can't burst under that
[23:52] <cambazz> taut?
[23:52] <SpeedEvil> So - if you fill a 30l balloon with 10l of gas - then it can't burst under where the atmosphere is 1/3 sea-level pressure.
[23:52] <SpeedEvil> Rigid, turgid, throbbing, burgeoning, inflated, ready to burst
[23:53] <SpeedEvil> full
[23:53] <SpeedEvil> As the atmospheric pressure outside drops, the gas swells and eventually fills the balloon and takes all the wrinkles out.
[23:53] <SpeedEvil> At some point over this, it might burst
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[23:54] <cambazz> ok i get that. i could not find any data on other peoples experiments on google.
[23:55] <SpeedEvil> you could see if you could measure burst pressure at sea leve
[23:55] <SpeedEvil> then it's quite easy to calculate
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[23:57] <cambazz> yes this page says it was 4.7Kpa (0.7PSI) and 5.4Kpa (0.8PSI) for helium and water
[00:00] --- Sat Apr 11 2015