highaltitude.log.20150407

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[03:51] <tweetBot> @HighBalloonMO: Exploring HAB_0 data visualization w/ Esri app of @ArcGISPro @ArcGISIdeas and @Highcharts. How do you tell your story? #ukhas #hamradio
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[07:37] <DL7AD> good morning
[07:38] <DL7AD> Upu- UpuWork: could you add DL4MDW-12 to the map? it will be launched between 09-10 UTC.
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[07:43] <Upu-> !aprs add DL4MDW-12
[07:43] <SpacenearUS> 03Upu-: You need to be an admin to do that.
[07:43] Nick change: Upu- -> Upu
[07:43] <Upu> !aprs add DL4MDW-12
[07:43] <SpacenearUS> 03Upu: Added 03DL4MDW-12 to APRS Importer
[07:44] <DL7AD> Upu: thanks :)
[07:44] <UpuWork> nps
[07:44] <pc1pcl> DL7AD: aprs only, or also something more interesting I might need to set up?
[07:46] <DL7AD> pc1pcl: no. aprs only
[07:46] <DL7AD> 10mW
[07:46] <DL7AD> solar
[07:47] <pc1pcl> Still interesting to follow it on the map then; aprs.fi has the last position near Berlin, will it be launched from there?
[07:48] <Maxell> pc1pcl: heh DL4 sounds like .de to me :)
[07:48] <DL7AD> Maxell: yes
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[07:48] <DL7AD> yeah it will be launched in berlin
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[07:51] <Maxell> DL7AD: nice. What direction do you expect it to float towards?
[07:52] <DL7AD> *shrug*
[07:52] <fsphil> up
[07:53] <Maxell> :p
[07:53] <fsphil> well, it's a floater so I'm wrong
[07:53] <fsphil> it'll go up a bit
[07:53] <pc1pcl> http://www.windfinder.com/weather-maps/forecast#5/51.399/9.668
[07:54] <pc1pcl> Maxell: looks like the 'wrong' direction for us ;)
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[08:41] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Morning
[08:43] <fsphil> morn
[08:44] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Like the Piview video the other day looks good!
[08:45] <fsphil> yea that turned out well. good timing with the full moon and the fog
[09:00] <DL7AD> morning Geoff-G8DHE-Lap & fsphil
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[09:20] <wotzup> In 4 weeks, we expect to fly full video, On Screen Display fo flight details, a flight controller, both way modem aand steerable parachute. will try to land where we launch from if the conditions are right.
[09:21] <wotzup> We will drop from about 26km to make sure that we don't pop and foul the payload. We fly in central NSW in Australia.
[09:21] <wotzup> So my question is: is there anyone thaqt has done this and give us any advice?
[09:25] <wotzup> We will have an amateur balloon flight with a zero pressure balloon. We are expecting to use hydrogen and lift a 3.4m supersonic glider - 15kg - to 45km altitude and it will be a massive challenge. We will need about 40 cubic metres of hydrogen.
[09:25] <craag> Why zero pressure?
[09:26] <wotzup> Again any experienced people have any advice. This will all be amateur - not professional. You can find out more here: https://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/video/watch/26551883/race-for-space/
[09:26] <wotzup> zero pressure to get the altitude with the weight. Or is there another option?
[09:27] <craag> Ah, you mean just using a latex
[09:28] <wotzup> The biggest latex balloon we have used is 3kg and it will not make the altitude or the weight. 15kg payload.
[09:28] <craag> Don't worry, my misunderstanding.
[09:28] <craag> Ok, what's the balloon made out of?
[09:29] <daveake> I'm confused.
[09:29] <craag> My understanding was that zero pressure refers to the use of a valve to let out overpressure
[09:29] <daveake> Steerable parachute got mentioned, then a supersonic glider
[09:29] <wotzup> Im not sure of the film that they use. All I know is that we will need a spare and each balloon will be worth about $12K US. This project will cost about $80K
[09:29] <daveake> amateur ?
[09:31] <wotzup> Okay - 2 flights - a test of the avionics and video link via a weather balloon and the big event in September with the ZPB and the aircraft.. Yes. Public - non commercial. This is a personal event
[09:31] <daveake> nice budget
[09:31] <fsphil> sweet
[09:32] <wotzup> We can use HAM radio and can go for a few records - mainy with the aircraft. It will achieve Mach 1.5, but it will be only classed as an aircraft if we can keep it stable.
[09:32] <daveake> yes, otherwise it's classed as debris :)
[09:32] <fsphil> there have been a few flights doing live TV from flights over HAM radio bands. not in the UK sadly
[09:33] <daveake> That side is straightforward
[09:33] <fsphil> yea
[09:33] <wotzup> So far, my son and I have carried out 23 launches and we have recovered all 23 payloads - 2 were in Croatia and the President even asked to meet us. Croatia was a real buzz. Had to avoid mountains, swamps, lakes, border and landmines
[09:33] <daveake> I wonder if Lester knows about this :p
[09:34] <wotzup> We flew 2 x 3Kg balloons in Croatia last year with about 20 student experiments.
[09:34] <wotzup> Lester?
[09:34] <daveake> http://www.theregister.co.uk/science/lohan/
[09:34] <fsphil> I've lost about 50% of mine (intentionally)
[09:35] <wotzup> We flew live HD TV from over 70km for the entire flight in Croatia.
[09:35] <fsphil> DVB?
[09:35] <craag> Hopefully with the help of a french fisherman, I'm about to break my streak of losing the last 4 I personally released :P
[09:36] <jonsowman> :D
[09:36] <jonsowman> wonder if it has turned up yet
[09:36] <daveake> I thought you might have that back by now
[09:36] <craag> It's probably sitting in the university postal system.
[09:37] <wotzup> We will strat to fly non recoverable payloads, but we will fly them with a different designation before the flight so that we can keep our intended recovery record - I hope. 100% on all 23 flights is pretty good. It started with just me and my son (aged 9) a few years ago.
[09:37] <daveake> ah
[09:38] <fsphil> sounds like it's going to be fun
[09:39] <craag> wotzup: What's your budget for a standard latex flight out of interest?
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[09:39] <wotzup> Was that Lester Haines someone mentioned? If so he wrote us up a few weeks back: http://projectthunderstruck.org/thunderstruck-news/
[09:40] <craag> Yeah that's the one and only
[09:41] <wotzup> He have to travel 7 hours before we can fly - about 600km. I buy the helium in bulk and I sell balloons so I get them cheap. - it cost use $800 but that includes petrol and accomodation. It can be as low as $500
[09:41] <daveake> "we will be carrying only 50kg of payload," :p
[09:41] <daveake> "only" :)
[09:42] <wotzup> Just launched our Australian Balloon Shop - adding the stock so it does not have the shop part working yet. http://habworx.com
[09:42] <craag> Is that including flight hardware?
[09:43] <wotzup> Did I say 50kg? the aircraft is 15kg and the balloon will be 10kg and the balloon payload will be about 7kg - more live cameras filming the release. Yes, I play big. Always have and the bigger the better.
[09:44] <craag> I'm mainly interesting in what you use for radio comms hardware :)
[09:44] <craag> *interested
[09:45] <wotzup> It is easy for me to recover my payloads. We have a massive area of flat land with internet connectivity and few trees or lakes - pretty much dead flat. Hard to lose a payload.
[09:45] <fsphil> yes it's amazing how empty australia is
[09:45] <fsphil> flew over it once, it goes on FOREVER
[09:46] <wotzup> Every payload has a feww component to fly a HAM radio APRS, but we are good for RTTY and on some of the more important payloads we add a single gimballed Spot tracker. We even fly 2 trackers at all times
[09:47] <craag> Sounds good :)
[09:47] <craag> LoRa is the new buzz over here.
[09:48] <wotzup> We lost 1.5 trackers recently. The GPS failed on one and the other stopped being recived 2km off the ground in strong winds. The impact took out the GPS, so we had a beep every 20 seconds and used good old fox hunting to find it.
[09:48] <craag> Semtech ISM modules with enough link budget to do reasonable range at several kbps.
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[09:50] <wotzup> We are using RFD900s for the long distance components in the flights coming up, but I need to look at the units you mentioned. I believe I can only get about 80km out of the RFD-900 (on 900MHz)
[09:50] <craag> Ah won't compete with the high power 900 MHz stuff
[09:51] <craag> We're rather limited over here, so make do with 10mW most of the time.
[09:51] <daveake> Yeah we're used to smaller budgets (power, weight and financial!)
[09:51] <Darkside> i think they will go longer, with decent gain
[09:51] <wotzup> We do commercial flights, but the contract always allows us to carry ham radio gear, but the primary tracker always have to be commercial
[09:52] <wotzup> Hi Darkside. Good to see you here
[09:52] <Darkside> evening
[09:53] <wotzup> Just reading a lot of your posts that I always got on RSS feed - RF Head - some great stuff there
[09:53] <Darkside> hah
[09:53] <Darkside> havent updated that in a while
[09:53] <Darkside> got a lot of material to post though
[09:54] <Darkside> just need to be very careful what i post, a lot of my hobby is veyr close to what i do at work
[09:54] <wotzup> 10mW is always fun. We sent 3mW to the moon using JT9 modulation using a 30m dish in Tasmania and it was received by another 30m dish in the Netherlands and successfully decoded. !0mW can do anything with the right antennas.
[09:55] <Darkside> and the right modulation scheme
[09:55] <Darkside> and shitloads of error correction
[09:55] <wotzup> Yes, I noticed, the [posts have stopped since you started work
[09:55] <Darkside> yup
[09:56] <craag> We did 10mW ground -> balloon with 5/8 magmount -> 1/4 wave at a couple of kbps a few weeks ago :)
[09:56] <wotzup> Of course. Building propper systems is always essential.
[09:56] <craag> With lora.
[09:56] <gonzo_> reminds me of stories form the old bletchley park people. Frightened to talk about anything, as they could never be sure it was something secret or something they had read in the papers
[09:56] <craag> Surprised us!
[09:56] <edmoore> i sympathise on the hobby-becoming-work thing
[09:56] <edmoore> curtails public stuff a lot
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[09:57] <Darkside> edmoore: yes
[09:57] <gonzo_> though it is useful in that the bosses cn;t tell the difference
[09:57] <Darkside> edmoore: a lot of the SDR stuff i do hits too close to home at owrk
[09:57] <gonzo_> can't
[09:57] <wotzup> we used 5.8GHz for the 70km HD TV we used a dish on the ground with a circular polarised antenna and a circular polarised mushroom antenna on the balloon 1 watt transmitter.
[09:57] <edmoore> i have very technical bosses :)
[09:58] <gonzo_> I was once asked why I used a particular device in a design. Answer: Because I need one for a home project
[09:58] <edmoore> although seeing that this channel has over the years become balloons+hamradio rather than high altitude things more generally it's less risky talking about rockety things
[09:58] <edmoore> whereas if you work on sdr commercial then you probs have to bite your lip here a lot Darkside
[09:58] <gonzo_> but as that meant that the bit of the design was already done at home, the boss was quite happy
[09:59] <wotzup> Just getting into SDR for somke gear I am designing for work, but we are not doing a single channel. we are decoding and recoding selected channels in a 20Mhz bandwidth in a single RX unit. and a TX unit
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[10:00] <wotzup> Time for me to depart. I will appear here a bit more than before. Need to grab any useful experience and I am happy to download any of my experiences. I have been working as a bit of a loner with my son and a few others.
[10:01] <wotzup> Darkside has had a small participation in some flights.
[10:01] <wotzup> Nice to meet you all.
[10:01] <craag> Nice to meet you too!
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[10:02] <wotzup> Check out these websites if you have any interest. http://wotzup.com http://projectthunderstruck.org http://habworx.com
[10:04] <edmoore> wotzup, thunderstruck looks a bit like skylon
[10:08] <wotzup> Just walked past the computer. It is very small. Ultimately we will build a spacecraft with re-entry capabilities.ometwhere between 3.5m and 5m long and carry a 50kg payload from LEO to earth
[10:09] <edmoore> getting it into LEO will be the fun bit I imagine
[10:09] <daveake> wotzup Good choice of chase car :)
[10:09] <edmoore> i merely thought the black renderings and background made it look a bit like renderings of skylon :)
[10:10] <wotzup> It will not be like Sylong - the spacecraft will be more like a small Dream Chaser. It will be a space courier service. https://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/video/watch/26551883/race-for-space/
[10:11] <edmoore> how will it get up to LEO?
[10:11] <wotzup> We will pay for a rocket.
[10:11] <edmoore> ah
[10:11] <edmoore> you're well funded then :)
[10:11] <wotzup> In 2 years time we will have a sounding rocket return vehicle and go commercial if the business plan looks good.
[10:13] <wotzup> In 2 years, I expect that I will be. Cant say more publically, but the Sept launch will be crowd funded and we have HobbyKing as a platinum sponsor. We even have the Australian Dept of Defence as a sponsor.
[10:13] <wotzup> The DOD seem to have an interest in this working.
[10:14] <edmoore> if someone will give you a sounding rocket and range to fire it to test re-entry then you're laughing
[10:14] <wotzup> We are not short of support and we are not short of well funded partners. We have an ion engine partner that wants to go to Mars orbit with cubesats.
[10:14] <edmoore> ranges can be very hard work from a paperwork perspective, and expensive too
[10:15] <wotzup> http://projectthunderstruck.org/a-trip-to-mars-2022/
[10:17] <wotzup> Ha - I called it Sylong - I need sleep. Really tired. 3 Teenage kids. One got home late last night and one left super early to travel to Canberra - Need sleep.
[10:18] <wotzup> Anyway, lots of balloon flights with a lot of technology. I also have booking to fly university payloads and lots of advertising payloads. All goes to funding the fun.
[10:18] <edmoore> cubesat to mars would be impressive
[10:18] <wotzup> Yes, but no balloons!
[10:18] <edmoore> what mass fraction do you need for that?
[10:19] <wotzup> Mind you I have a possible project called Median that is a UK based experiemnt that may use an inflatable helium parachute like balloons for a number of spikes with methane detectors. Too bulky to carry to Mars but we did the work for it.
[10:20] <edmoore> nvm did some envelope sums
[10:20] <edmoore> it's about 50%
[10:20] <edmoore> which is quite doable on a cubesat i'd have thought
[10:23] <wotzup> Mars orbit would be highly eliptical. Makes it easy. No wings on the craft going to Mars.
[10:23] <edmoore> sure - no point acelerating wings
[10:24] <wotzup> We will have a Lego concept and you plug and fly with the parts you chose. We can carry up to 200kg when there is no re-entry required.
[10:26] <edmoore> what thrusters does thunderstruck have for orbital manouvering and reentry?
[10:26] <wotzup> By the way, we have done a spreadsheet to caculate accelerations from different altitudes. We will publish an on-line versionsoon. It even takes into account the gravity at diffetrent altitudes.
[10:27] <wotzup> We are looking at cold gas thrusters for sounding rocket flights. We have some interesting ideas for orbit slowing.
[10:27] <edmoore> you can't not do that - it's already 1% lower at 32km
[10:27] <edmoore> which is a large difference when doing delta-v calculations
[10:27] <wotzup> Cannot do what?
[10:27] <edmoore> not take into account gravity differences
[10:29] <wotzup> We do and it makes a small difference, but an important difference. We look ta air density, diameter of the nose cone, the angle of the point of the nose cone, drag, wing thickness and much more. It is very accurate.
[10:29] <edmoore> not such a big deal for sounding rockets but for hitting LEO or transferring out of LEO it's a vital parameter to model correctly
[10:30] <wotzup> But we do take into account gravity. That is what I said.
[10:30] <edmoore> sure, just you said it 'even' takes into account gravity]
[10:30] <edmoore> as if that were advanced
[10:30] <edmoore> whereas it's just a basic
[10:30] <edmoore> that was all i meant
[10:31] <wotzup> Yes. Very important. We have experienced navigation experts. I do okay too. i even had Buzz Aldrin at a talk I gave about travelling to the moon at the ISDC meeting in 2013 - I speak at space conferences. I was in london just over a year ago at a major conference.
[10:32] <wotzup> Yes. I was just reenforcing the point that it had the basics that were needed.
[10:32] <edmoore> I see
[10:32] <edmoore> fair enough
[10:32] <edmoore> which was the conference out of interest?
[10:32] <edmoore> the london one
[10:34] <wotzup> I am 63 years old and I actually worked on Apollo 11 comms when I was 17. I have been stationed at Parkes Radio Telescope for ESA's Giotto miossion to Halleys commet and 2 x NASA voyager encounters.
[10:34] <edmoore> sure
[10:34] <edmoore> but we do science and engineering with the laws of physics rather than the laws of PR
[10:35] <edmoore> so if you'll excuse me for addressing my questioning at a technical level...
[10:35] <wotzup> I will try and remeber the London One. It was December 2013 I think. Big international one. I have a lot of UK space friends
[10:36] <edmoore> I'm asking lots of questions because propulsion research is my field, so I'm always interested in new ideas for cheaper space access
[10:36] <wotzup> Sure. Just wanted you to know that I am not talking crap. I actually have a long history in this stuff that is all verifiable.
[10:36] <edmoore> i think it's one of the more important things we could be working on
[10:37] <wotzup> I also have a lot of interest in new technology and we have some new water thrusters under development.
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[10:37] <edmoore> thrusters for when in water?
[10:39] <wotzup> I can't say too much here, but it has been tested at a Croatian University and initial tests show that we may be on to something. Very efficient and can be made very small for cubesats.
[10:40] <edmoore> so it uses water as the reaction mass?
[10:40] <wotzup> Much higher deltaV than an ion engine, but of course uses the water much faster, but this can be used for manouvering.
[10:40] <wotzup> Yes
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[10:40] <edmoore> what's the specific impulse? (roughly)
[10:41] <wotzup> That is not my area. That is our thruster guy, but I can try and find out.
[10:42] <edmoore> oh well, sounds interesting
[10:42] <wotzup> http://wotzup.com/2014/11/news-team-stellar-testing/
[10:44] <edmoore> hmm, I can't infer much from the photo
[10:45] <edmoore> interested to hear anything from your propulsion guy
[10:45] <edmoore> water seems an unusual choice at first glance
[10:45] <fsphil> hehe, "This site has been blocked. Block reason: Forbidden Category "Gambling""
[10:49] <wotzup> We should take this off line, but it is late here. My email is homepc@rbrand.com also the conference was EPSC 2013 in London.
[10:50] <edmoore> I'm happy to stay on here
[10:50] <edmoore> if i had to do offline with every person with a space plane idea i'd have no time to work on my own space plane :)
[10:51] <wotzup> I attempted to leave a while back, but if you have any other questions... I can only help to put you in touch with our propulsion guy. How commercial this is may stop too much exchange iof info.
[10:51] <edmoore> sure
[10:52] <edmoore> though a target ISP should be a selling point (if this is a cool idea) rather than a sensitive number
[10:52] <edmoore> like if it's better than hydrazine you're onto a winner
[10:52] <edmoore> anyway, don't let me keep you
[10:52] <wotzup> Not too many space planes out there and by the time we finnish there may be a couple more, but our big customers will be the survey vessels for the asteroid miners. We can push a number out there with empty payloads and return the samples
[10:53] <edmoore> hopefully skylon!
[10:54] <wotzup> They said that they would be happy with a 10kg payload, but 50kg make it a very good system. We can carry a bunch of cubesats out and relay the data back and then we have an empty payload container for swapping fpor a full one for the return trip.
[10:54] <wotzup> Skylon is too bigh for a space courier service
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[10:55] <edmoore> it's probably not the right fit for mining samples
[10:55] <edmoore> more for getting big stuff up
[10:55] <wotzup> We will give them what they want. 50kg is the max. We can always go smaller
[10:57] <wotzup> http://www.epsc2013.eu/
[10:58] <wotzup> Got to go. If you want to ask me to come here for a chat, just send me an email and I will try and get on. My evenings are not too full.
[10:58] <edmoore> it's ok i don;t do things like that
[10:58] <edmoore> i'll just be around, see you if you decide to be too
[10:59] <wotzup> I will be around from time to time to talk about ThunderStruck's flight and the ones leading up to the big flight, so just ask away.
[10:59] <edmoore> cool
[10:59] <edmoore> see you then
[11:00] <wotzup> If you are interested ina ctually being involved and have something to offer - talk to me. We have a UK guy named Nick Howes - he is our optical guy. We are not adversed to take on people outside of Australia..
[11:00] <wotzup> We have benefits for being involved.
[11:01] <wotzup> Good night all.
[11:02] <edmoore> i'd want to see more of a track record of successful working hardware before committing
[11:02] <edmoore> but good luck
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[11:03] <infaddict> interesting
[11:04] <edmoore> no
[11:04] <edmoore> poser
[11:04] <edmoore> not a chance
[11:04] <infaddict> ;-)
[11:07] <edmoore> as long as he's having fun and his son is learning something though
[11:09] <infaddict> very true
[11:09] <infaddict> great thing to be involved in at 9 years old
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[11:36] <ejcweb> I'm having trouble getting a GPS fix with my u-blox max m8q. After several minutes running I get the correct time in the NMEA strings, but never any lat/lng.
[11:37] <ejcweb> Any suggestions for how to debug this?
[11:40] <gonzo_> just wait longer
[11:40] <gonzo_> I've sometimes found it needs 20+ mins to get positional lock
[11:40] <gonzo_> depending on antenna and sky visability
[11:42] <craag> ejcweb: What gps+antenna are you using?
[11:44] <ejcweb> craag: u-blox 8 and quad-v antenna (http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=68)
[11:44] <mattbrejza> where is it?
[11:44] <mattbrejza> also u-centre
[11:45] <ejcweb> mattbrejza: I've got it sitting at a window right now.
[11:45] <ejcweb> I wasn't too sure how u-center could help?
[11:45] <mattbrejza> itll tell you what sats it can see and how strong they are
[11:46] <mattbrejza> isnt one of these windows with a metalic coating?
[11:46] <craag> 'anti glare'
[11:47] <ejcweb> mattbrejza: I assume the u-center info is exactly what I can see from the NMEA strings, though?
[11:48] <ejcweb> The window might not be ideal - I sat outside for a bit yesterday but didn't have much joy. Perhaps it just needed longer though.
[11:48] <jonsowman> hey ejcweb
[11:48] <ejcweb> The fact it gives me some sensible info (eg. time) gives me hope that nothing is too wrong.
[11:48] <ejcweb> Hey jonsowman :)
[11:48] <jonsowman> how's it going?
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[11:50] <ejcweb> Good thanks - getting back into the HAB world after a brief hiatus. This time not with Android for a change!
[11:50] <jonsowman> excellent :D what's the plan for the payload?
[11:50] <jonsowman> apart from to have a working gps :P
[11:52] <ejcweb> 360 degree video footage above the desert if all goes well.
[11:52] <jonsowman> cool
[11:56] <mattbrejza> yea but seeing some graphs over time for each sat is easier than looking at nmea strings and trying to work out whats going on
[11:56] <craag> Yep get ucenter running and try different positions along the windowsill
[11:56] <craag> ucenter will tell you about how many satellites it can see, but not lock on to, so you know how close you are.
[11:57] <mattbrejza> and you can see how many dB your signals drop by when you put a camera near it (for example)
[12:02] <Vaizki> I have the same ublox breakout from upu and it works fine from a windowsill.. but my windows are not selective or antiglare
[12:11] <ejcweb> I'll relocate outside and report back.
[12:11] <adamgreig> may be worth a quick photo of the setup, the modules tend to be fairly quick unless you have something noisy or a poor power supply or something
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[12:13] <Matt_PrjHet> Afternoon all
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[12:17] <Matt_PrjHet> I've just had a thought about SSDV. I was hoping to point some friends to SSDV.habhub.org during my launch. Does SSDV get the picture data from my laptop's internet connection (pushed from DL-FLDIGI) or does it get picked up by the rest of the HAB rx network automatically, regardless of my laptop?
[12:17] <craag> Both.
[12:18] <Matt_PrjHet> My laptop will be in the car with me without a web connection.
[12:18] <Matt_PrjHet> Ah cool :)
[12:18] <craag> Ah
[12:18] <craag> In which case you'll be relying on others to upload from dl-fldigi to ssdv.habhub.org
[12:19] <craag> It is useful to have a web connection in the car if you can do it.
[12:19] <craag> Allows you to make use of the live predictor
[12:21] <craag> dl-fldigi does, if set up, save all received ssdv images - so you won't lose anything if you receive an image that no-one else does, but obviously it won't go up live on ssdv.habhub unless you can upload it at the time.
[12:21] <Matt_PrjHet> OK. Thanks craag. I'll have to do some reading up on tethering.
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[12:23] <Matt_PrjHet> When you say relying on others... Is that pretty hit and miss or do people do it whenever there's a launch?
[12:23] <craag> If you announce it in reasonable time, there tends to be a few people who'll have the time to switch their kit on and help receive from home.
[12:24] <craag> Where are you launching from?
[12:24] <craag> obviously launching at the weekend helps with numbers :)
[12:25] <Matt_PrjHet> Cambridge. Hopefully in the next week to 10 days.
[12:25] <Matt_PrjHet> It'll be in the week though as those nice chaps at CUSF are lending me their 3 day NOTAM.
[12:26] <craag> Plenty of people around there, send out an email to mailing list at least a day before with frequencies and stuff.
[12:26] <craag> Cool, you should be ok, but it would really help to have one more live receiver in the chase car ;)
[12:30] <Matt_PrjHet> My buddy is setting it up as we speak...
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[12:31] <craag> If you're using windows, you can tell it that it's a metered connection so it won't try to download a 500MB update pack mid-chase ;)
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[12:33] <Matt_PrjHet> Like ^ :D
[12:34] <craag> It also means that if you're lost or need some advice, you can quickly hop on here and ask for directions.
[12:36] <Ian__> Name of the farm at the top of the lane and a telephone number magiced out of the air by the distributed armchair network. Priceless
[12:36] <Ian__> magicked
[12:38] <Matt_PrjHet> Hive intelligence eh :)
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[12:41] <Ian__> I have a lot of that, for sure . . .
[12:41] <Ian__> :)
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[12:43] <Laurenceb_> ude
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[13:18] <Matt_PrjHet> Ooops. Accidental upload to SSDV.habhub.org.
[13:19] <Matt_PrjHet> For info I'm testing my aerial/rx on 434.530MHz this afternoon.
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[13:34] <ejcweb> Update: I managed to get a fix after sitting outside in the end. Time to first fix is ~3 minutes which is longer than I expected in clear view of the sky,
[13:34] <infaddict> thats normal (in fact good)
[13:34] <infaddict> my tests in clear sky are 2-4 mins
[13:34] <infaddict> from a cold start
[13:35] <infaddict> UTC time is usually first to arrive (< 1 minute) but it needs to download the almanac to get a proper GPS fix
[13:35] <craag> most gps (in phone, satnav) have a backup battery/cap allowing it to remember the almanac and never cold start.
[13:35] <infaddict> mmm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_to_first_fix
[13:37] <craag> Phones also assist by telling the GPS hardware roughly where it is based on the cell tower - which saves a lot of time.
[13:38] <craag> standalone gps modules have none of that
[13:38] <infaddict> yer never really considered why phones and car sat navs are much quicker
[13:38] <infaddict> i know my car satnav really doesnt like it if I'm moving before its locked
[13:39] <infaddict> strangely, some parts of my house (like in a certain chair in the lounge) get a full lock as if I was outdoors. probably a fluke of reflecting signals or something!
[13:40] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
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[13:57] <Vaizki> cell phones actually get the almanac over agps
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[13:59] <Vaizki> and of course the cell network gives an accurate time to the phone
[13:59] <Vaizki> so they never really cold start unless you fly to another country and turn your phone on there without data roaming active
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[15:02] <infaddict> any advice on length of line between payload and chute, then chute to balloon? Also is this just single line? Tried the wiki but must cant seem to find it.
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[15:03] <fsphil> a 2/3 1/3 split seems popular
[15:04] <fsphil> payload <--- 2/3 ---> chute <--- 1/3 ---> balloon
[15:04] <daveake> and it's 2 lines
[15:04] <fsphil> yea dont have a single line with the chute tied to it
[15:04] <fsphil> it'll flop around and make things unstable
[15:04] <daveake> handy hint - use slightly weaker line for the top section
[15:04] <craag> I haven't quite understood how attaching the balloon to the top of the chute works.
[15:05] <fsphil> the chutes I've used have cord at the top and bottom
[15:05] <craag> Surely the weight of the remants pulls down one side of the chute canopy?
[15:05] <fsphil> ah that
[15:05] <daveake> it can do
[15:05] <daveake> varies
[15:05] <daveake> the remanants act as a streamer
[15:06] <mattbrejza> craag: https://www.flickr.com/photos/104821768@N06/16406949834/
[15:06] <craag> Ah ok - I sort of assumed they were more of a dead weight.
[15:06] <daveake> One of Steve's flights you can see the balloon flying along in parallel with the payload
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[15:06] <daveake> which it then thwacked just before landing
[15:07] <craag> Yeah different lengths definitely.
[15:07] <daveake> There was some chat about this on https://community.balloonchallenge.org/t/parachute-deployment-method/101/9
[15:11] <craag> I've been tempted to try chute <- 5m -> balloon <- 10m -> payload.
[15:13] <craag> https://www.flickr.com/photos/104821768@N06/16891039306/
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[15:13] <craag> 3x payloads + balloon remants under the chute.
[15:14] <craag> Does use more cord for a given pendulum frequency.
[15:16] <craag> Almost got away with trying it out on OLAF/MAJORA (I'd been thinking about it before and forgot mattbrejza wouldn't like it)
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[15:17] <mattbrejza> chute might get tangled with the other line before deployment that way?
[15:24] <craag> It would... but it's only attached at the non-critical end, so it'd be a lot less of an issue than if the traditional way tangled up during freefall.
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[15:30] <bradfirj> Hey guys, thinking of launching a floater in a few months, my first balloon but by no means my first circuit board or firmware .... Is LoRa worth trying out for the first time around the block or should I stick to RTTY or Domino for my first one?
[15:30] <mattbrejza> you can get a lora module to transmit rtty too remember
[15:30] <mattbrejza> so both is fine too
[15:31] <fsphil> not nearly as much coverage with lora, and floaters tend to cover large areas
[15:31] <mattbrejza> oh floater
[15:31] <fsphil> are you planning to send images over radio?
[15:32] <fsphil> dominoex would be too slow for that
[15:36] <bradfirj> Just telemetry at first
[15:36] <infaddict> sry fsphil, daveake, craag - call came in and was afk for a while. thanks for advice on chute and line etc.
[15:37] <bradfirj> Light as possible, im in Northern Ireland so I need either a good float duration or a rare southerly wind
[15:37] <craag> infaddict: Ignore me - use the traditional way, it works :)
[15:37] <infaddict> hehe
[15:37] <infaddict> traditional as in: payload <--- 2/3 ---> chute <--- 1/3 ---> balloon
[15:37] <craag> exactly
[15:37] <fsphil> bradfirj: I know the feeling. where abouts in NI?
[15:37] <infaddict> thx craag
[15:37] <bradfirj> south belfast
[15:37] <craag> 10m, 5m seems to work for us.
[15:38] <fsphil> ah, opposite site of the lough from me
[15:38] <bradfirj> Mate is a farmer outside dromara, lots of hills to launch and track from
[15:39] <bradfirj> I'm not a ham though, so i'll need to outlay on a receiver, thats the big expense by the looks of it
[15:39] <infaddict> craag: got myself a 100m reel of 1.5mm braided nylon so plenty to go around
[15:39] <fsphil> there are cheaper options
[15:39] <bradfirj> i'm ok with spending a few quid if it's worth it, I would prefer spending the money and getting reliable reception
[15:39] <craag> infaddict: More the better, to a point, makes the payload more stable and easier to retrieve from a tree :)
[15:40] <fsphil> the rtlsdr USB dongles and the habamp together make a good receiver
[15:40] <infaddict> trees! really hoping for no trees!
[15:40] <fsphil> zeusbot you're no fun
[15:40] <bradfirj> Ooh interesting
[15:41] <daveake> infaddict: longer lines = more stable, higher chance of reaching payload when chute lands at the top of a tree, higher chance of hitting a tree (or pylon)
[15:41] <fsphil> the rtlsdr is not very sensitive, the habamp makes up for that
[15:41] <fsphil> together with a decent antenna it'll work fine
[15:41] <bradfirj> I saw the AirSpy but that's nearly the price of a mid range transceiver
[15:41] <prog> hello folks
[15:41] <fsphil> the rtlsdr on its own is fine for testing
[15:41] <infaddict> yep i am using rtlsdr+habamp for my first project
[15:41] <bradfirj> Decent antenna, a cobbled together 70cm yagi you mean?!:p
[15:41] <fsphil> that or a little 70cm magmount
[15:42] <bradfirj> coat hangars ahot...
[15:42] <bradfirj> ahoy...*
[15:42] <prog> so airspy is expensive. hmm.
[15:42] <fsphil> http://cpc.farnell.com/1/1/21033-wsm-270-mini-mag-antenna-wsm-270-watson.html
[15:42] <fsphil> this is a handy little antenna
[15:42] <fsphil> though if you're floating and not chasing, a yagi might work better
[15:43] <infaddict> prog: any further news on the airspy lite project?
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[15:44] <prog> infaddict: coming.
[15:44] <infaddict> so's Christmas ;-)
[15:44] <fsphil> ah there's a budget version in the works?
[15:44] <prog> yes
[15:44] <prog> $99
[15:44] <fsphil> oooh nice
[15:44] <bradfirj> fsphil: I think i'll do a bigger one in future, cameras etc, and maybe drive out to omagh for a launch
[15:44] <prog> the balance is hardly positive on this one hehe
[15:45] <prog> but it should be fine
[15:45] <bradfirj> hopefully catch it on its way east
[15:45] <prog> is 12bit @ 6msps enough ?
[15:45] <fsphil> bradfirj: summer is the best time to launch here, when the higher winds are going opposite to the lower ones
[15:45] <fsphil> you tend to get a zig zag flight path, keeps it in range
[15:45] <prog> that gives like 15bit ENOB at 12kHz bw
[15:45] <prog> which is more than respectable on VHF/UHF
[15:46] <fsphil> I've launched from a site between omagh and cookstown twice before and got it to land in NI
[15:46] <fsphil> once near armagh and another near the north coast
[15:46] <fsphil> (in a tall tree on a mountain, surrounded by 2 miles of marsh)
[15:47] <bradfirj> Gonna need to learn my radio basics all over again, sa I have a stack of older UHF TV antennas from before the digital switchover
[15:47] <bradfirj> Can i butcher one into a 70cm yago
[15:47] <bradfirj> yagi*
[15:48] <fsphil> probably not well
[15:49] <fsphil> tv antennas tend to be wideband, from about 500-800mhz, and not very good at any frequency
[15:49] <fsphil> though I've never tried
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[15:52] <infaddict> bradfirj: i bought a kit for a 70cm Yagi. It is 0.9m length and I have all the precise measurements/distances between the elements if you wanted to make one yourself.
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[15:52] <infaddict> http://www.nuxcom.de/pdf/B7-70-50.pdf
[15:53] <infaddict> thats the datasheet with lengths and positions
[15:53] <fsphil> could use the individual elements of the old tv antenna to make that
[15:53] <infaddict> the /pdf/ folder has more for different lenghs and freqs
[15:53] <fsphil> cut to the proper size
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[15:55] <bradfirj> Yeah that's what i meant
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[15:55] <bradfirj> Use the elements and modify them
[15:55] <bradfirj> Might not be wide enough thoigh
[15:55] <bradfirj> though*
[15:55] <fsphil> yea longer wavelength
[15:56] <fsphil> though you could join two of each
[15:56] <fsphil> have fewer elements
[15:56] <bradfirj> Not sure on the theory of it tbh, readin required
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[15:56] <fsphil> yagis are a bit magic
[15:57] <bradfirj> The non-dipole elements work as wave guides right?
[15:57] <fsphil> the smaller forward ones do yea
[15:57] <fsphil> http://www.radioworld.co.uk/A430S10R_Diamond_430-440MHz_70cm_10_el_Yagi
[15:57] <bradfirj> What about the 'tail' behind the dipole?
[15:57] <infaddict> reflector
[15:57] <fsphil> a reflector I believe
[15:58] <infaddict> great video on this on YT - finding it now for you
[15:58] <bradfirj> Aha
[15:58] <fsphil> I don't understand the physics of how yagis work
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[15:59] <infaddict> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lslHtCUSfN4
[15:59] <infaddict> more general than just Yagi but I found it v useful intro
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[15:59] <fsphil> yikes. that video is 5 years old
[16:00] <infaddict> yep but still holds true! her use of a lightbulb to show signal strength is a great way to explain it
[16:01] <infaddict> and she adds the elements one by one to show what they do
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[16:12] <bradfirj> infaddict: That company sell a kit for a 70cm lightweight yagi for ¬15
[16:12] <bradfirj> Definitely worth considering, thanks
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[16:12] <infaddict> yep they have a good selection. just watch for P&P costs which iirc were a fair bit on top.
[16:13] <bradfirj> ah, will keep an eye
[16:13] <infaddict> as they are Germany
[16:22] <bradfirj> I'm planning on using a SAMD20 processor, which you guys may be interested in as it has a true built in DAC
[16:23] <bradfirj> 10-bit resolution
[16:23] <bradfirj> PPU is normally less than the ATmega
[16:27] <Vaizki> PPU?
[16:27] <bradfirj> price per unit
[16:28] <Vaizki> right.. and what are you using the DAC for?
[16:29] <mattbrejza> stm32 ftw
[16:32] <bradfirj> Fiddling the voltage on the MTX2B TX pin
[16:32] <fsphil> dac is useful for multi-fsk modes
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[16:33] <daveake> hmm is it Thuesday yet?
[16:33] <bradfirj> It's 10-bit resolution, external reference voltage (so you can run the processor at a different voltage to the radio), and the time-between values is specced as 2.85uS
[16:33] <fsphil> nes
[16:33] <bradfirj> which I think is fast enough for almost every multi-fsk mode
[16:34] <bradfirj> But yes the STM32 is also an excellent core
[16:34] <bradfirj> I just happen to have a box of SAMD20Es here from an unrelated project
[16:34] <bradfirj> :D
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[16:35] <infaddict> daveake: is that a cross between Tuesday and Thursday?!
[16:36] <daveake> Yeah, it's the day that anerdev said he would be launching on
[16:36] <daveake> Hopefully sense was seen
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[17:54] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[17:55] <SpeedEvil> hey
[17:56] <Lunar_Lander> hope all are well
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[17:59] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
[17:59] <Lunar_Lander> had a campus wide power surge today
[17:59] <Lunar_Lander> wasn't nice
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[18:41] Action: mfa298 read scrollback
[18:41] <mfa298> 10:36 < craag> It's probably sitting in the university postal system.
[18:41] <mfa298> good luck getting that back then.
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[18:50] <craag> :)
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[19:25] <Lunar_Lander> hello craag :)
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[20:22] <anerdev> hey guys
[20:22] <anerdev> ballooon launced
[20:23] <anerdev> all ok =D
[20:23] <anerdev> this days will post the video
[20:23] <craag> habhub tracking??
[20:25] <bradfirj> :refreshes habhub furiously:
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[20:27] <anerdev> crag unfortunately today my adel provider putted off the service for maintenance -_____-
[20:27] <anerdev> small photoshot http://cl.ly/image/051H0X1R350b
[20:28] <anerdev> me when found the balloon: http://cl.ly/image/3E440s2a2q1S
[20:28] <anerdev> me at launch: http://cl.ly/image/3M3r0D1W1s3P
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[20:28] <anerdev> I've created the scheme of the data: temperature, humidity and pressure ... are very strange O.0
[20:29] <mfa298> that's a new way of taking captures from a video
[20:29] <Lunar_Lander> nice
[20:29] <Lunar_Lander> well done! :)
[20:29] <anerdev> mfa298 ahuhua
[20:29] <anerdev> thank you guys ...
[20:29] <anerdev> thank you so much <3
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[20:29] <anerdev> but I've learn that the next launch I need to modify the payload box "form"
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[20:30] <bradfirj> That man is wearing a bowtie, is he important anerdev? :)
[20:30] <anerdev> is my future teacher of aerodynamics
[20:30] <edmoore> nice
[20:31] <edmoore> bet he enjoyed it
[20:31] <anerdev> the most important is the first in the right: the university rector
[20:31] <daveake> The aerodynamic properties of a bow tie are often underestimated
[20:31] <anerdev> EDMOORE they liked so much :))
[20:32] <anerdev> daveake LOL
[20:32] <anerdev> I think that the bow tie is british style ... think correctly ?
[20:32] <edmoore> quite possibly
[20:32] <edmoore> definitely professorial
[20:32] <bradfirj> A little Dr.Who thrown in
[20:34] <anerdev> yep asd
[20:34] <anerdev> the gps will stop at 10k meters ?
[20:34] <anerdev> is possible ?
[20:34] <anerdev> this link you can read the parameters: http://cl.ly/2x1m1z3q342u
[20:35] <craag> What gps did you use?
[20:35] <anerdev> SIM908
[20:35] <edmoore> it's quite possible yes
[20:35] <edmoore> many of them do not work at altitude
[20:35] <anerdev> (I think is very bad module)
[20:35] <edmoore> either at all, or not without being set to an airborne mode as with the ublox
[20:35] <craag> Try ublox MAX-8 next time ;)
[20:35] <anerdev> edmoore max what's altitude ?
[20:36] <edmoore> depends on the module
[20:36] <craag> (and set it to airborne mode)
[20:36] <edmoore> often they die at 60,000ft
[20:36] <anerdev> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=68
[20:36] <anerdev> good
[20:36] <edmoore> i think some die at 12km
[20:37] <anerdev> I used a hwoyee with 4 meter cube of helium
[20:37] <edmoore> varies from model to model - but yes the ublox 8 is a really great gps
[20:37] <anerdev> I think that 30k altitude maybe
[20:37] <Vaizki> anerdev: go 3.3V.. worth it ;)
[20:37] <anerdev> Vaizki next time I will use another and MUCH better components
[20:37] <Vaizki> 5V is.. legacy
[20:38] <craag> SIM908: Altitude Max 18288 km
[20:38] <craag> Should have been fine :P
[20:38] <daveake> hah
[20:38] <craag> http://www.sos.sk/a_info/resource/c/SIM908-C.pdf
[20:39] <anerdev> crag if you watch my data there: http://cl.ly/2x1m1z3q342u he stop at 10k O.0
[20:39] <bradfirj> What's the diff in the two UBLOX models on habstuff
[20:39] <anerdev> maybe the Arduino library is bad
[20:39] <bradfirj> Think it's a Q and M suffix?
[20:39] <craag> anerdev: Yep, it was a COCOM limit, use a better gps next time :)
[20:39] <craag> I was joking
[20:39] <craag> Datasheet has a typo
[20:39] <anerdev> sure craag :)
[20:40] <craag> bradfirj: One runs at 3.3V, and has a TCXO for better performance. The other runs at 1.8 - 3.3V but only has a normal XO.
[20:40] <bradfirj> cheers
[20:41] <bradfirj> 3.3V is where it's at anyway ;)
[20:41] <Vaizki> I have the M8Q with SAW+LNA and it's been amazing in my tests
[20:41] <edmoore> 1.2V
[20:41] <edmoore> 0.9V!
[20:41] <edmoore> 0V!
[20:41] <craag> -12V!
[20:41] <Vaizki> -48V mostly
[20:41] <edmoore> a 0.9V gps could be fun
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[20:41] <edmoore> tough to fit the rf front end in with so little headroom
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[20:42] <bradfirj> +12V DC HAB
[20:43] <bradfirj> How much balloon to lift a marine battery? :P
[20:43] <craag> You wouldn't be the first to come here and ask that seriously...
[20:43] <bradfirj> oh dear
[20:44] <bradfirj> I imagine the bbc would find it interesting when it drops through the windshield of someones car
[20:44] <bradfirj> Well, them and the police
[20:44] <mfa298> there's even a picture for when people ask that question seriously (or possibly more than one picture)
[20:44] <craag> To be fair - they were from the other side of the pond.
[20:45] <daveake> possibly another planet too
[20:46] <craag> Most likely, given the radio transmitter they wanted to fly was heavier than the battery..
[20:46] <daveake> :)
[20:47] <Vaizki> did the 10kg shuttle guy come back here btw?
[20:48] <daveake> I don't think so
[20:48] <edmoore> not that I've seen
[20:48] <edmoore> maybe i wasn't polite enough
[20:48] <edmoore> oh actually i wasn't rude to him
[20:49] <edmoore> it was the rocket-cigar-hab guy
[20:49] <bradfirj> rocket-cigar-hab you say
[20:49] <craag> Vaizki: The guy earlier today?
[20:50] <Vaizki> no I think it was 2 weeks ago
[20:50] <craag> Ah ok.
[20:50] <mfa298> this took way to much grepping of the log files: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/Images/Funny/pico.jpg
[20:51] <craag> lol that was re: the MIT flight iirc
[20:51] <daveake> yeah, this was a student who has a "shuttle" (whatever that means) of a mere 10kg or so
[20:51] <bradfirj> is that a hammer
[20:51] <Vaizki> even I knew it was a hammer
[20:51] <mfa298> although by the standards of the guy talking about the ft101 that really is a Pico
[20:51] <craag> I have an ft101
[20:52] <Vaizki> he wanted to fly a ft101?
[20:52] <mfa298> craag: but you're not planning on flying it (at least I hope not)
[20:52] <craag> Can probably mod it for HF ISM bands...
[20:52] <craag> ;)
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[20:53] <edmoore> wonder if you could make a steampunk radio
[20:53] <mfa298> craag: if you're going to do that, borrow the club linear. at least then you'll know it's working by the RF field you can feel near it.
[20:53] <edmoore> a little multipole dynamo on a steam turbine
[20:53] <edmoore> a little steam turbine should be good for 100krpm
[20:54] <edmoore> so with multiple poles you could get yourself an oscillator possibly even as high as 1MHz
[20:54] <Vaizki> if I had that kind of energy I'd go for a steam powered tesla coil
[20:54] <SpeedEvil> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexanderson_alternator
[20:55] <craag> Steam powered tesla coil would be incredible
[20:55] <edmoore> splendid SpeedEvil
[20:55] <SpeedEvil> Got to 40KHz or so
[20:55] <edmoore> thank you for that
[20:55] <SpeedEvil> It is an awesme machine
[20:55] <mfa298> I look forward to seeing such a payload at the next conference when everyone shows off how small they've got their payloads this year
[20:55] <edmoore> flying a boiler could be tricky
[20:56] <edmoore> i guess a gas turbine is an acceptable alternative
[20:56] <bradfirj> There are probably some regulations governing that
[20:56] <edmoore> well a long enough antenna would eb tricksie
[20:56] <edmoore> i would have thought there are not too many regs about specifically flying gas turbines
[20:58] <bradfirj> I think there are
[20:58] <bradfirj> Somewhere under jet aircraft one would assume
[20:59] <edmoore> well it's just a power source
[20:59] <edmoore> a gloried battery
[21:00] <Vaizki> a bit OT but is there a RF connector to fit a "pad" on a PCB which is a 3mm circle with a hole through the center surrounded by RF ground.. :P
[21:01] <edmoore> probably
[21:01] <edmoore> 'some coax'
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[23:21] <Laurenceb_> http://www.neowin.net/news/here039s-what-happens-when-you-plug-a-surface-3-into-itself
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[23:40] <arko> haha
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[00:00] --- Wed Apr 8 2015