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[05:06] <Reb-SM0ULC> morrn
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[07:15] <mand> Is it possible to track actual balloons with a simple usb dvb-t tuner? I want to try if i could get it to work because i think it's an interesting idea to try and track a balloon.
[07:17] <mand> I think remember having read something about only using these for testing
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[07:19] <x-f> yes, it is possible, you just need a suitable antenna
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[07:20] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[07:20] <x-f> bare usb dvb-t tuner won't be as good as one with a preamp, but it should work anyway, you would get less range though
[07:21] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
[07:21] <mand> what would you advise for a suitable antenna?
[07:23] <x-f> you can make a simple omnidirectional 1/4 wave ground plane - like on the balloon payloads, just pointing it up
[07:23] <x-f> a directional one (a yagi) would perform better, but you have to aim it right
[07:25] <x-f> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:payload_antenna - ground plane antenna
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[07:28] <mand> Thanks, i will have a look
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[08:39] <SA6BSS> looks like ps-40 went down
[08:40] <edmoore> there will be no post script
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[09:38] <anerdev> hey guys =D
[09:39] <anerdev> I'm testing the telemetry of my balloom
[09:39] <anerdev> but I don't undestad why isn't show on habhub
[09:39] <anerdev> but my position of "radio tower" yes
[09:39] <Upu> ping prog
[09:39] <mfa298> anerdev: if you're uploading good data http://habitat.habhub.org/logtail/ should tell you whats happening
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[09:41] <anerdev> mfa298 there is my string
[09:41] <anerdev> Parsing [ascii] '$$ASSM1,3,9:40:36,4441.960890,1038.767515,115,28,*1A6C\n'
[09:41] <anerdev> isn't good ?
[09:41] <anerdev> is egual to the wiki :/
[09:41] <mfa298> Exception in UKHAS main parse: ValueError: Incorrect number of fields (got 7, expect 6)
[09:41] <mfa298> there are several lines related to what's happening you need to read them all
[09:42] <anerdev> mfa298 this is what I receive: ||||||||||||||| $$ASSM1,4,9:41:19,4441.964310,1038.771483,132,28,*8E1
[09:42] <anerdev> i need to change ?
[09:43] <mfa298> it sounds like your payload document says there should be 6 fields but your telemetry sting has 7. You either need to correct the telemetry string to have 6 fields or correct the payload document to have 7 fields
[09:44] <anerdev> one moment
[09:44] <anerdev> mfa298 in the payload generator I set 7 string, but I don't undestand why it save with 6 !
[09:45] <mfa298> how many data fields are you actually sending
[09:45] <anerdev> 7+
[09:45] <anerdev> 7
[09:45] <anerdev> callsign,counter,time,lat,lon,alt,temp
[09:45] <mfa298> looks like sequence, time, lat,long,alt, temperature? (28) and a null field then the checksum
[09:46] <anerdev> there is int he end a ,
[09:46] <anerdev> I remove (but there is in the wiki !)
[09:47] <mfa298> if you're looking at http://ukhas.org.uk/communication:protocol
[09:47] <mfa298> then I think the verry top example is wrong
[09:47] <mfa298> the other examples are right
[09:47] <mfa298> there shouldn't be a , before the *
[09:48] <anerdev> mfa298 I follow the first example uhauh
[09:48] <anerdev> ok .. I'm uploading the new code
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[09:48] <mfa298> wern't you asking questions about this last week and didn't you get told to remove the last , then
[09:49] <mfa298> wiki fixed
[09:49] <mfa298> remember that is only an example, you can send what you want
[09:50] <fsphil> the final comma was due to a very old parsing bug in dl-fldigi
[09:50] <fsphil> long fixed now
[09:50] <mikestir> has anyone fixed that off-by-one on the sprintf example yet?
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[09:51] <fsphil> where is that?
[09:51] <anerdev> not yet work :/ ... This is my string now: $$ASSM1,0,9:49:41,4441.964462,1038.761235,110,32*5958
[09:51] <anerdev> Exception in UKHAS main parse: ValueError: (field time): Invalid time value.
[09:51] <anerdev> why this error ? the time is correct 9:49:41
[09:51] <mikestir> needs the leading zero I guess
[09:51] <mfa298> time should probably have a leading zeros
[09:51] <anerdev> auchhh
[09:53] <anerdev> another problem -____-
[09:53] <mfa298> depending on how you're printing the lat/long values make sure they'll also have leading zeros after the decimal point (if it's just a single float you should be ok, if each one is made up of two ints you may have issues)
[09:53] <anerdev> the time is a string splitted and converted into int variable
[09:53] <daveake> anerdev This ^^^ is why I told you to test before you ask for the flight document to be approved
[09:54] <anerdev> daveake you are right
[09:54] <anerdev> :// but
[09:54] <daveake> Question for all - is there a wiki page about payload/flight docs, approval, testing uploads, logtail ?
[09:54] <anerdev> I'm nervous ! Because the notam is a problem to change in Italy
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[09:55] <mfa298> this is why you should start testing early and test lots.
[09:55] <daveake> I've been nervous since you said everything was working but yo hadn't uploaded anything
[09:55] <mfa298> dont leave it to the last minute to test
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[09:59] <anerdev> I'm a idiot
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[09:59] <fsphil> join the club :)
[10:00] <edmoore> but honestly, do some testing before letting go
[10:00] <edmoore> you're just going to lose it otherwise if you don't have it working reliably for a few hours with your whole setup
[10:01] <mfa298> 10:53 < anerdev> the time is a string splitted and converted into int variable
[10:01] <anerdev> mfa298 yes
[10:01] <mfa298> if you're snprintf'ing that back into the string to send should be easy to fix
[10:02] <anerdev> wait wait ... this my my string = 20150226193522.001
[10:03] <anerdev> I can split using this method: sscanf(time,"%04d%02d%02d%02d%02d%02d",&YY,&MM,&DD,&hh,&mm,&ss);
[10:03] <anerdev> I try if work
[10:05] <mfa298> the getting it into integers may well be working fine.
[10:05] <mfa298> however an integer is just a number. so 9am is stored as 9.
[10:06] <mfa298> when you convert it back to a string to send that's where you add the formating for leading zeros
[10:07] <mfa298> scanf/sscanf also are generally functions that aren't recommended as they can lead to buffer overuns. But in this case you might get away with it.
[10:09] <mfa298> also in a couple of minutes the time might start parsing correctly. that doesn't necessarily mean it's fixed, just that you'll have hit times where you need fewer leading zeros (hour and minutes will be >=10).
[10:09] <anerdev> mfa298 yes
[10:10] <anerdev> now are >10
[10:10] <anerdev> one moment ...
[10:11] <daveake> This is one reason I recommended testing for hours, not just seeing one position go through and thinking it's working
[10:11] <anerdev> now work ...
[10:11] <mfa298> anerdev: but have you *actually* fixed the bug.
[10:11] <anerdev> nope .. I uploading the new code with sscanf
[10:12] <anerdev> mfa298 I split the value and save in char
[10:12] <mfa298> if it's just working because the time is past 10:10:10 it'll break in ~50 minutes and also randomly if the second value is under 10.
[10:12] <anerdev> I think that it will save the 0 or no ?
[10:12] <anerdev> mfa298 yes .. I need to wait 45 minute to test again
[10:17] <mfa298> anerdev: can you show us your code. it might help determine if you're likely to have fixed it
[10:17] <mikestir> you'll only need to wait until the seconds <10 to see if it has worked
[10:18] <anerdev> mfa298 I'm uploading on pastebin
[10:18] <anerdev> mikestir oh, yeah ..
[10:19] <anerdev> one moment .. I'm testing the new code
[10:21] <anerdev> mfa298 there is the code: http://pastebin.com/jkyyNSf2
[10:22] <anerdev> doens't work ...
[10:22] <mfa298> that's got a load of bugs in it
[10:23] <mfa298> you've defined 1 character for YY but it needs 5 "2015\0"
[10:23] <mfa298> I think there was probably an easier fix as well
[10:23] <anerdev> yes .. I changed char YY[4];
[10:23] <anerdev> and other value in [2]
[10:24] <anerdev> I'm uploading
[10:24] <mfa298> for 2015 you need YY[5] there's also a \0 you need to store
[10:24] <mfa298> personally instead of changing all those int's to chars I'd have just changed the snprintf further down
[10:25] <mikestir> buffer overrun on line 338 as well
[10:25] <mikestir> and 329
[10:25] <mikestir> just search for all instances of sprintf and change them to snprintf(buf, sizeof(buf)
[10:26] <edmoore> )
[10:26] <mikestir> then when everything breaks you'll know where the buffers are too small
[10:27] <anerdev> one moment
[10:27] <daveake> don't rush
[10:28] <anerdev> mikestir it's the code that I found on the wiki
[10:28] <mfa298> one change at a time (and ideally in something like github)
[10:28] <mikestir> yeah I know - it's got a bug in it
[10:28] <anerdev> But I need to change how ?
[10:28] <mfa298> never trust code you find online - it's usually got bugs in it!
[10:28] <mikestir> char checksum_str[6] needs to be char checksum_str[7]
[10:29] <mikestir> that's all
[10:29] <anerdev> mfa298 for the YY I need to put char[5] YY; and another (MM, DD, hh, mm, ss) put char xx[3] ?
[10:29] <mikestir> because of that trailing '\0' that mfa298 mentioned. you need to allow for that on all strings in C
[10:29] <anerdev> mikestir ok .. I change from 6 to 7
[10:30] <anerdev> mikestir thank you
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[10:31] <mfa298> in simple terms all strings need to be one character longer than you think they need to be. for the '\0' which C uses to find the end of the string (snprintf doesn't know how big the string is)
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[10:32] <anerdev> mfa298 perfect ! I'm uploading the new code
[10:32] <anerdev> one moment .. thank you
[10:35] <anerdev> mfa298 I think that there is an error to this sscanf(time,"%04s%02s%02s%02s%02s%02s",&YY,&MM,&DD,&hh,&mm,&ss);
[10:35] <mfa298> still you could have left all those YY,MM variables as integers and just fixed the format in the snprintf further down.
[10:36] <anerdev> this is the time value: 103507:3507:07
[10:36] <anerdev> only the second is correct
[10:38] <edmoore> you don't say :)
[10:38] <mfa298> can you upload the code as it is now
[10:38] <anerdev> uploading
[10:39] <anerdev> one moment
[10:42] <anerdev> guys ... NOW WORK ! http://pastebin.com/XPbGtv2v
[10:44] <anerdev> =D
[10:44] <fsphil> sprintf(rtty,"ASSM1 HW CHECK\n"); rtty_txstring(rtty);
[10:44] <fsphil> you don't need sprintf() for this
[10:45] <fsphil> rtty_txstring("BLA BLA BLA\n"); is fine
[10:45] <fsphil> you only need sprintf if you have values, like %d or %s in it
[10:45] <daveake> Chilly in Italy
[10:45] <fsphil> it does no harm, but it just looks odd :)
[10:46] <fsphil> the rtty example should probably add a progmem variant too
[10:46] <daveake> Also, are you intending to only transmit once every 50 seconds?
[10:46] <daveake> Do you have alarge gap between sentences?
[10:47] <mikestir> s/sprintf/snprintf/
[10:47] <fsphil> and yea always use snprintf
[10:48] <fsphil> variables names in uppercase look a bit odd too
[10:50] <anerdev> thank you fsphil .. I change immediatly
[10:50] <mikestir> I was just trying to write a little program to illustrate what happens if you don't allow for the null with sprintf, and it's actually quite hard to make things go wrong. I think gcc must add some padding to stack arrays for safety
[10:51] <fsphil> yea
[10:51] <mikestir> I could only get it to corrupt an adjacent variable by declaring them both static and turning the optimiser off
[10:51] <fsphil> though I think you can turn that off
[10:56] <mfa298> anerdev: this is roughly what I was suggesting you could have changed. line 26 is probably the only difference from your original code (when YY etc. where ints). But if it's working and you understand your current code now probably isn't the time to be changing much
[10:56] <mfa298> http://pastebin.com/4BMVsufh
[10:57] <mfa298> helps if I add the link to what I'm saying
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[11:05] <anerdev> mfa298 thank you :)
[11:05] <anerdev> I'm uploading on pastebin the new code, with all changes
[11:05] <anerdev> thank you guys =D
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[11:14] <anerdev> LOL
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[11:14] <anerdev> now the first loop all work
[11:14] <anerdev> from the second the temperature sensors doen't work ... good
[11:16] <daveake> Yes I mentioned that:
[11:16] <daveake> <daveake> Chilly in Italy
[11:17] <anerdev> daveake nope =D
[11:17] <pc1pcl> anerdev: so somethign is messed up by the first iteration through the loop and not reset properly?
[11:17] <anerdev> daveake is hot today (for where I'm) .. at my house in sicily we have 27*
[11:18] <anerdev> pc1pc1 in the start of the loop there is the request value from the sensor .. all work.
[11:18] <daveake> Your payload was suggesting -127C
[11:18] <daveake> which is probably wrong
[11:18] <anerdev> in the first loop is ok (17 *) from the second doesn't work (-127 is the value that the sesnor is off)
[11:19] <anerdev> daveake yes, -127 is when the sensor is disconnected
[11:19] <anerdev> but in the first loop work it say that there are 17* O.0
[11:19] <anerdev> is a problem of space storage ? I don't think -___-
[11:20] <pc1pcl> so maybe it needs something re-set or re-primed, is the current program available somewhere?
[11:20] Nick change: BitEvil -> SpeedEvil
[11:21] <anerdev> pc1pc1 I'm uploading the code on pastebin
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[11:30] <anerdev> the sensor work (I upload a simple code that read the value) ... Now I search where is the problem
[11:31] <anerdev> pc1pc1 you think that at the end of the loop I must to reset the value ? Like a temperature = 0 ?
[11:31] <daveake> No
[11:32] <daveake> You need to upload the code that's failing
[11:35] <anerdev> daveake http://pastebin.com/ZWrE39ZG
[11:36] <anerdev> daveake watch http://imgur.com/qELEmiG
[11:37] <anerdev> first send is ok = 17, from the second = -127
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[11:45] <daveake> anerdev This works first time round the loop, or only in the setup function?
[11:45] <anerdev> work in the setup (pass the if controll) and in the first round loop only
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[11:49] <daveake> Well, the temperature code looks OK
[11:49] <daveake> So perhaps you are overwriting the oneWire variable
[11:50] <anerdev> daveake is the same of 1 hour ago ... what you think ?
[11:50] <cambazz> hello daveake: I changed the code for reading RSSI from rfm98w according to rev3 datasheet at http://www.semtech.com/images/datasheet/sx1276.pdf - (SX1276/77/78/79) - but now I read less rssi. page87 states that rssi(dbm) = -164 + rssi
[11:50] <daveake> correct
[11:50] <cambazz> so when the transmitter is setup to transmit at 5dBm, and when the antenna is side by side, is it normal to read like -40dBm
[11:50] <daveake> no should be higher ime
[11:51] <daveake> anerdev your rtty string is too short
[11:51] <cambazz> i think i either have a problem in my circuitry, or I am interpreting the rssi wrong.
[11:51] <daveake> and you're doing a strcat over the end of it
[11:51] <daveake> and then corrupting the oneWire variable
[11:51] <daveake> Using snprintf is *not* enough if you then append something to the result
[11:53] <daveake> Your latest transmitted string is (assuming I can count) occupying 74 bytes and you only have a 70-byte buffer
[11:53] <daveake> And the next variable you declare is oneWire
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[11:54] <anerdev> daveake put 80 ?
[11:54] <daveake> I don't know
[11:54] <daveake> You need to find out what the absolute longest line might be
[11:54] <cambazz> here is a picture of my LoRa scanner with OLED screen: http://pasteboard.co/2hW20PEK.jpg
[11:54] <daveake> and then add a few :/
[11:54] <anerdev> daveake ok .. I'm testing
[11:55] <pc1pcl> there is probably also a 'strncat' to try and protect from overruns like that.
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[11:59] <anerdev> daveake now work =D
[11:59] <anerdev> thank again
[11:59] <anerdev> :* <3
[12:01] <daveake> I impressed myself on that one :-)
[12:02] <daveake> I shall now go and lie down for abit
[12:03] <mikestir> did the arduino guys not do something useful like create a "string" class with a + operator and bounds checking?
[12:03] <mikestir> that would have actually been useful for beginners
[12:03] <anerdev> mikestir are you referring to me?
[12:03] <pc1pcl> anerdev: what value did you put for the rtty[] length? and did you add something to make sure you're not going over it?
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[12:04] <mikestir> anerdev: no I mean the arduino devs
[12:04] <anerdev> pc1pc1 now I'm using rtty[80], but I change to 100. And delete sdata[70] (because I need only in the setup)
[12:04] <anerdev> mikestir ah ok ok
[12:05] <pc1pcl> mikestir: this way its more educational as you get to learn about how variables are stored in physical memory and what the effects of overruning the bounds are.
[12:05] <mikestir> pc1pcl: except you don't, because ime what happens is everyone says "don't use sprintf, you're overrunning that buffer" and the response is "oh well it works so I'll just leave it"
[12:07] <pc1pcl> only way to learn seems to be to actually make the mistake yourself, just being told touching the hot pan is a bad idea doesn't work.
[12:08] <pc1pcl> if they had the string class, people would be saying 'don't use the string class, it's a waste of precious memory, think about what you're actually doing instead', and everyone would just use it anyway ;)
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[12:08] <mikestir> I agree. the problem is that with buffer overflows it's often too subtle to even have an effect, or it introduces weird corner-case bugs that hardly ever happen. I absolutely agree that learning about the architecture should come first, but arduino abstracts away things like a single assembly opcode (bset) to a class method like digitalWrite, so why did they stop there?
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[12:12] <pc1pcl> Maybe they realised the error of their ways and turned at the halfway point instead of getting lost completely ;) Or they just haven't gotten as far yet...
[12:12] <mikestir> I think on avr the simple led blinky is actually simpler _without_ arduino: int main(void) { DDRA |= 1; while (1) { PORTA ^= 1; _delay_ms(500); } }
[12:15] <mfa298> mikestir: it's simpler if you can understand binary and how it relates to bytes. Although with some good examples that really shouldn't be too hard.
[12:16] <pc1pcl> I'm just using the arduino as it's a convenient way to get relatively cheap hardware stable dev board to jumpstart getting start with 'embedded', I guess it works for that..
[12:17] <mikestir> one of the standard avr headers does define the "bit value" macro _BV though, so you can write _BV(<pin number>) for clarity
[12:18] <mfa298> if you treat it as a board with an AVR and don't deal with the arduino coding stuff they looks like reasonable dev boards. It's the arduino abstractions and libraries which cause issues.
[12:18] <mfa298> not that I've ever owned an "arduino", I just buy AVR chips and use a ISP programmer.
[12:19] <pc1pcl> yeah, so probably from an educational standpoint it's good it has many obvious flaws, so people will realise the 'arduino' part of it is best dropped once you've bootstrapped yourself.
[12:20] <mikestir> you'd hope so, but we do see a worringly high number of people coming to us at work to enquire about productionising something they've done with arduinos, expecting it to be a case of doing a hardware spin and just keeping the existing software
[12:20] <mfa298> problem is lots of people don't see the flaws. or that with a bit of reading/learning you can do things so much better
[12:22] <pc1pcl> (I have two chinese knockoff arduino's and one 'real' one (that I've actually never used yet), but mostly using the loose chips (tiny45) for now.)
[12:22] <mfa298> I just looked at a bit of avr code I wrote in the summer seeing how easy it was. 114 lines that blinks an LED, does some SPI and UART thigns. and ~1/3 is comments - I suspect the arduino version would be just as long - and probably have some timer conflicts.
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[12:23] <mikestir> and fewer comments
[12:24] <mfa298> and not use ISR routines
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[12:29] <fsphil> plus java
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[12:34] Nick change: Crashbone|Away -> Crashbone
[12:34] <mikestir> mfa298: re binary - with this renewed focus on "coding" in schools I'd expect all kids to be able to count to 1023 on their fingers. if they can't then the curriculum is wrong.
[12:36] <mfa298> then we need to go for trinary as I reckon that's doable on fingers and you can do 59048
[12:36] <mikestir> can you implement a full adder on your hands?
[12:38] <mfa298> I'd probably have to think about that. it's been a long time since I've done that level of logic
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[13:48] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[14:27] <Mark_B> Good afternoon
[14:28] <Mark_B> Can I do a quick functional check of my tracker on spacenear.us ?
[14:29] <chrisstubbs> Mark_B, have you made a payload doc?
[14:30] <Mark_B> Yep, just checking I'm not getting in anyone's way first
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[14:30] <chrisstubbs> shouldn't be a problem
[14:31] <Mark_B> THanks Chris
[14:31] <Mark_B> Have a good easter
[14:34] <chrisstubbs> When are you thinking of launching Mark_B?
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[14:38] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[14:38] <edmoore> depends on the performance of the Mark_A prototype
[14:38] <chrisstubbs> hah
[14:38] <chrisstubbs> hi Lunar_Lander
[14:38] <Lunar_Lander> hi chrisstubbs
[14:46] <Mark_B> <chrisstubbs> I'm hoping to launch next w/e 11/12 Apr
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[14:48] <chrisstubbs> Cool :) make sure to double check the predictions, post on the mailing list and get a flight doc approved
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[14:52] <Mark_B> <Chrisstubbs> willdo. Predictions looking good at the moment. I'm on hols until next Fri. If the winds are good I'll create a flight doc on Fri P.M. and request auth
[14:53] <Mark_B> I've done a couple previously. This is my first to bring back some imagary.
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[18:27] <anerdev> hey guys :)
[18:28] <anerdev> what I need to do for approve the flight documents ?
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[18:33] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Post the Flight Document number in #habhub and one of the admin's will autothorise it if its been tested etc.
[18:33] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> authorise it even!
[18:34] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> use /j #habhub to join the channel
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[18:37] <anerdev> Geoff-G8DHE-M done ... It say: Payload parse status: 1 untested (869c)
[18:37] <anerdev> but I tested today
[18:39] <daveake> You've got lots of payload docs
[18:40] <daveake> I guess you put the wrong one in the flight doc
[18:40] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Have you got the right payload document in the flight document? adamgrieg is asking back on the channel
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[18:41] <daveake> Same question I had then :)
[18:41] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> I suspect he's checking now ;-)
[18:42] <daveake> 6 to choose from all the same comment
[18:43] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Oh yes!
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[19:01] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah well he has a day or two to sort it out ....
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[19:25] <mfa298> I'm not sure how sucessful his flight is going to be. although at least it looks like he's got gsm as well so maybe ~50% chance
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[19:33] <daveake> Yeah I hope he realises that GSM is an unreliable backup
[19:34] <daveake> That Swedish lad had the opinion that radio didn't matter as GSM would work anyway
[19:34] <Upu> has he got anything on the map yet ?
[19:34] <Ian_> We remember how that one ended
[19:34] <daveake> Frozen lake
[19:34] <daveake> lucky lucky lucky
[19:35] <daveake> Upu yes he did
[19:35] <Upu> he was asking for approval earlier
[19:35] <Upu> but payload was untested
[19:35] <daveake> He had 6 payload docs
[19:35] <daveake> So probably referenced one of the untested 5
[19:35] <Upu> ah he haz confuzion
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[19:36] <daveake> much
[19:36] <daveake> Temperature reading was broken (-127) but I figured that one out for him
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[19:36] <daveake> Ah anerdev
[19:36] <daveake> When is your flight?
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[19:43] <anerdev> daveake thuesday
[19:46] <daveake> sorry tuesday or thursday ?
[19:46] <edmoore> theusday
[19:46] <edmoore> perfectly clear
[19:47] <edmoore> 25 a.m, in the afternoon ISH, Theusday the 32nd on Aprember
[19:47] <daveake> ascent rate 5 furlongs per femtofortnight?
[19:48] <edmoore> with a burst altitude on 49,000 feeters
[19:48] <edmoore> of*
[19:50] <Upu> ping prog
[19:51] <edmoore> your thai manservant?
[19:51] <Upu> not quite
[19:51] <anerdev> daveake sorry, tuesday
[19:52] <daveake> ok, well I suggest you spend a lot of time between now and then testing your tracker and testing your ability to track it especially at a distance
[19:53] <anerdev> sure
[19:53] <anerdev> tomorrow morning I will re-check if all is ok
[19:53] <anerdev> and test the telemetry :)
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[19:56] <daveake> Have a read of http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:common_coding_errors_payload_testing
[19:57] <anerdev> daveake I read now ... Never read
[19:58] <anerdev> but I have a question: in the database there are a duplicate of my documents ... Is possible to delete for non create confusion ?
[19:58] <daveake> no
[19:58] <daveake> well
[19:58] <daveake> we can't
[19:59] <daveake> someone with powerz probably could
[20:00] <anerdev> lol .. with powerz
[20:00] <anerdev> ok
[20:01] <anerdev> so .. Tomorrow morning I will re-test my code. If is all ok, and all work, I create a new payload documents. After created, I test if habhub track correctly. If all of this work, I create a flight documents and ask for the authorisation
[20:01] <anerdev> what you think about this ?
[20:02] <anerdev> My variable are: lat, lon, alt, speed = char. Temp, humidity, pressure, counter = integer. I don't think that I will have a buffer problem
[20:04] <prog> Upu: pong
[20:04] <Upu> hey prog
[20:04] <Upu> pm
[20:04] <prog> yep
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[20:08] <Laurenceb__> can someone tell me whats wrong with this?
[20:08] <Laurenceb__> shopt -s extglob; ls ~/processed_transport_data/!(B*)*/GPS_Record.dat
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[20:08] <Laurenceb__> i want to exclude everything starting with "B"
[20:09] <anerdev> Laurenceb__ what's this ?
[20:09] <Laurenceb__> bash
[20:09] <anerdev> yes ... but
[20:10] <Laurenceb__> but what?
[20:10] <anerdev> you need to esclude all that start with "B" in the GPS_Record.dat ?
[20:11] <Laurenceb__> no
[20:11] <Laurenceb__> i want to exclude folders with names that start with B in my search for GPS_Record.dat
[20:11] <anerdev> ahhh ok ok
[20:11] <anerdev> one moment ...
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[20:14] <anerdev> Laurenceb__ http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14132210/use-find-command-but-exclude-files-in-two-directories
[20:16] <Laurenceb__> ok thanks
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[20:17] <anerdev> :)
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[20:28] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7emG7bMqJiU
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[20:35] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
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[20:56] <azrimzdaas> Hi, anyone there?
[20:57] <azrimzdaas> I had a quick question about the top altitudes on arhab.
[20:57] <azrimzdaas> Most were with the Hwoyee 1600, but were any with other balloons?
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[20:58] <Upu> in short
[20:58] <Upu> no
[20:58] <Upu> 1600g Hwoyee + H2
[20:58] <Upu> and you probably won't be able to replicate them now
[20:58] <Upu> they changed something
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[21:02] <azrimzdaas> Yeah, they were all around the same time
[21:03] <azrimzdaas> :/
[21:03] <azrimzdaas> GSBC?
[21:03] <Upu> Yup
[21:03] <Upu> I'm PAVA on that list
[21:03] <Upu> 6th ?
[21:03] <azrimzdaas> I see
[21:03] <azrimzdaas> Any clue on highest alt w Totex?
[21:04] <azrimzdaas> I know they used to make a 5000 a while back, but sometimes larger is less efficient
[21:04] <azrimzdaas> In the end it's all about the envelope
[21:04] <Upu> those are generally heavy lifters
[21:04] <Upu> don't go any higher than the smaller balloons
[21:04] <Upu> and they are flipping expensive
[21:04] <azrimzdaas> Underfill?
[21:04] <azrimzdaas> That's strange
[21:05] <azrimzdaas> Must be shitty balloons
[21:05] <Upu> no they are very good
[21:05] <Upu> they burst very close to spec
[21:05] <Upu> unlike Hwoyees
[21:05] <azrimzdaas> How are the current batch of 1600 Hwoyees?
[21:05] <azrimzdaas> And what are you flying for GSBC?
[21:05] <Upu> probably 1600g Hwoyee
[21:06] <daveake> I have new and old (dunno how old) 1600s
[21:06] <edmoore> kept in the cellar for a special occassion
[21:06] <daveake> Will try both
[21:06] <Upu> Dave and I are team Bacon
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[21:06] <azrimzdaas> Payload weights?
[21:06] <Upu> I'm AnthonyS on the forum
[21:06] <azrimzdaas> You did need a camera
[21:06] <daveake> Number10 has a 1600 from that vintage year
[21:06] <Upu> >65g
[21:07] <Upu> err
[21:07] <Upu> <
[21:07] <daveake> Well
[21:07] <Upu> got a super light weight RasPi Model A
[21:07] <daveake> Needs a camera
[21:07] <azrimzdaas> There was some from 2012, some from 2013
[21:07] <Upu> with a very light cameras
[21:07] <azrimzdaas> (23g for raspi)
[21:07] <azrimzdaas> We're 65g too
[21:07] <Upu> yours
[21:07] <Upu> :)
[21:08] <azrimzdaas> Well 57
[21:08] <azrimzdaas> plus duct tape for seal off :)
[21:08] <Upu> won't be much
[21:08] <Upu> what are you doing for telemetry ?
[21:08] <azrimzdaas> 808 chinese ripoff for like $8
[21:08] <azrimzdaas> US, so APRS
[21:09] <Upu> which GPS ?
[21:09] <azrimzdaas> 50mw tracker from Alan Adamson
[21:09] <azrimzdaas> Ublox chip?
[21:09] <Upu> ah
[21:09] <Upu> the one he isn't selling
[21:09] <Upu> but is :)
[21:09] <azrimzdaas> lol
[21:09] <Upu> you should be fine then
[21:09] <edmoore> 808s i think are the ones that interfered with the gps units iirc?
[21:09] <azrimzdaas> well
[21:09] <edmoore> unless the chip changed
[21:09] <azrimzdaas> faraday cage
[21:10] <azrimzdaas> with aluminium foil
[21:10] <Upu> well be careful
[21:10] <azrimzdaas> tested, still got a lock in under 30
[21:10] <daveake> 808's have more varieties than Heinz
[21:10] <Upu> yes this is the thing
[21:10] <azrimzdaas> Lol
[21:10] <Upu> they work fine on the grounf
[21:10] <azrimzdaas> It's not even a real 808
[21:10] <Upu> then bang 100 meters up
[21:10] <Upu> fake 808 ?
[21:10] <azrimzdaas> ???!!!!!!!
[21:10] <Upu> wow
[21:10] <Upu> they will be beyond shite
[21:10] <Upu> yeah they don't lock out on the ground
[21:10] <Upu> but get in the air
[21:10] <azrimzdaas> We flew one on our last launch
[21:10] <Upu> and game over
[21:10] <Upu> have a nice day
[21:10] <Upu> :)
[21:10] <azrimzdaas> Only to 13k ft
[21:11] <azrimzdaas> But we had lock throughout
[21:11] <azrimzdaas> I'm really hoping on the faraday cage
[21:11] <Upu> well it may work
[21:11] <Upu> just take care
[21:11] <Upu> and throw it in the bin
[21:11] <Upu> and use a Pi cam,
[21:11] <azrimzdaas> LOL
[21:11] <azrimzdaas> heavy
[21:11] <Upu> btw 65 g for us was a raspberry Pi
[21:12] <azrimzdaas> with transmitter onboard?
[21:12] <azrimzdaas> all in one solution?
[21:12] <Upu> Lightened PITS board
[21:13] <azrimzdaas> Pi in the Sky?
[21:13] <Upu> yes
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[21:13] <azrimzdaas> They should call in GNSBC
[21:13] <azrimzdaas> Near-space
[21:13] <azrimzdaas> lol
[21:13] <Upu> just trying to find a pic
[21:14] <edmoore> it does er on the absurd
[21:14] <edmoore> if you look at the about section
[21:15] <edmoore> all the students organising it have little titles like 'VP of Technology'
[21:15] <azrimzdaas> lol
[21:15] <azrimzdaas> Lots of PR though
[21:16] <edmoore> in the absense of anything substantial to show, PR's all you've got
[21:16] <azrimzdaas> lol
[21:16] <Upu> can't find the pic
[21:17] <edmoore> best experiment competition is cool tho
[21:17] <azrimzdaas> We are flying one launch on the 10th
[21:17] <azrimzdaas> I'm also trying to scramble together an order for a Hwoyee 1600
[21:17] <azrimzdaas> For a second launch
[21:17] <azrimzdaas> H2 for both
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[21:18] <edmoore> what's your 1st launch balloon?
[21:19] <azrimzdaas> 4000. lol
[21:19] <azrimzdaas> Totex
[21:19] <azrimzdaas> Never really been flown before
[21:19] <azrimzdaas> I guess we were the suckers that coughed up 800
[21:19] <daveake> It's best if you the balloon hasn't flown before
[21:19] <daveake> -you
[21:20] <edmoore> gosh
[21:20] <azrimzdaas> luck or something?
[21:20] <edmoore> never flown one of them
[21:20] <edmoore> have flown a few 3000s
[21:20] <Upu> they are £1000 or something
[21:20] <Upu> spec is 40km
[21:20] <azrimzdaas> On what?
[21:20] <azrimzdaas> The 4000s?
[21:20] <Upu> yeah I had the data sheet somewhere
[21:21] <azrimzdaas> I have it
[21:21] <Upu> k
[21:21] <edmoore> so someone tried a ZP balloon last year with a view to doing a rockoon
[21:21] <edmoore> that's interesting!
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[21:21] <azrimzdaas> exsensive!
[21:21] <azrimzdaas> *expensive
[21:21] <azrimzdaas> Where would you fire that anyway?
[21:21] <azrimzdaas> Lots of pesky laws
[21:22] <edmoore> indeed
[21:22] <edmoore> sort of why we gave up
[21:22] <azrimzdaas> We're looking at the planning stages of a rockoon, assuming this goes well. 54mm minimum diameter L2000 single use would get close to 100km
[21:22] <edmoore> we built a zp too for rockoons
[21:22] <azrimzdaas> edmoore *built*?
[21:22] <edmoore> mmm we specced for 100km
[21:22] <edmoore> minimal diameter M
[21:22] <Upu> whats alans site azrimzdaas ?
[21:22] <Upu> or where is he selling the trackers ?
[21:23] <edmoore> oh give up
[21:23] <edmoore> f*cking yawn
[21:23] <azrimzdaas> inside link lol
[21:23] <Upu> was peachtrees or something
[21:23] <azrimzdaas> Peach3
[21:23] <azrimzdaas> We got one from a mutual friend, at Cornell
[21:23] <edmoore> azrimzdaas, yes
[21:23] <Upu> ok
[21:23] <azrimzdaas> He's building about 10
[21:23] <azrimzdaas> And selling them
[21:23] <Upu> yeah he supplies them for K6RPT too
[21:24] <edmoore> we made a prototype to test the 'natural shape' thing that was mentioned by last year's competitors
[21:24] <azrimzdaas> His name is Mike Hojnowski, KD2EAT
[21:24] <azrimzdaas> kd2eat@gmail.com
[21:24] <edmoore> then made a machine to build bigger ones much more quickly and less manually
[21:24] <edmoore> this was some time ago
[21:24] <edmoore> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK80MXHQ5hA
[21:24] <azrimzdaas> nice
[21:24] <azrimzdaas> sounds time comsuming
[21:25] <edmoore> also built a suitable rocket
[21:25] <edmoore> well yes, hence the building of the machine to automate it
[21:25] <edmoore> or at least a suitable-style rocket
[21:25] <edmoore> but with fins sized for ground launching
[21:26] <fsphil> that's a heck of a prediction (on the mailing list)
[21:27] <edmoore> but it was simming to >100km
[21:27] <edmoore> so if real life behaved like the sims? we'd then have the paperwork problems
[21:27] <edmoore> btw we abandoned zero pressure balloons because actually we could loft the whole lot with a 3kg balloon
[21:27] <azrimzdaas> Where are you lcocated edmoore?
[21:27] <edmoore> uk
[21:28] <azrimzdaas> I know the TA4000 can do 50lb/23kg to 31km acording to calc
[21:28] <azrimzdaas> *according
[21:28] <Upu> if someone turns up asking for an APRS import I'll be back in about 15 mins
[21:28] <Upu> or someone else can do it
[21:28] <azrimzdaas> And that's far more than necessary
[21:28] <edmoore> https://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/sets/72157621633883573/
[21:28] <edmoore> that's the first stab at the min-diameter carbone fibre rocket
[21:28] <edmoore> yeah that's plenty
[21:28] <azrimzdaas> That's gorgeous
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[21:29] <azrimzdaas> Real one would need giant fins!
[21:29] <azrimzdaas> So no fin can? Whole thing is carbon fibre?
[21:29] <edmoore> yep
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[21:29] <edmoore> real thing would have the motor casing built in too
[21:29] <azrimzdaas> Were you looking at giant fins, spin stabilization...?
[21:30] <edmoore> carbon fibre with a cermaic liner to take the heat
[21:30] <azrimzdaas> Just like the old suboorbital rockets
[21:30] <edmoore> spun
[21:30] <azrimzdaas> *suborbital
[21:30] <azrimzdaas> avionics?
[21:31] <edmoore> just a custom pcb
[21:31] <edmoore> usual
[21:32] <edmoore> that would have been a ublox 4 or 5?
[21:32] <azrimzdaas> Also, anyone had high altitude experience with HY3000?
[21:32] <edmoore> whatever ublox was on then
[21:33] <edmoore> what is hy3000 azrimzdaas ?
[21:33] <azrimzdaas> No clue. havent done much in custom board design
[21:34] <azrimzdaas> Hwoyee 3000
[21:34] <edmoore> oh
[21:34] <edmoore> nope
[21:34] <edmoore> only kaymont
[21:35] <azrimzdaas> Not sure if buying hy1600 or hy3000 for gsbc
[21:35] <edmoore> 1600s seem to be the thing
[21:36] <daveake> Steve's flown a couple of HY3000s
[21:36] <azrimzdaas> Any high altitude results?
[21:36] <adamgreig> i found a vintage 1600 recently, from the best year
[21:36] <daveake> He said that they are pretty close to prediction for heavy payloads but unimpressive for <100g
[21:36] <adamgreig> might have to let it go
[21:36] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[21:36] <edmoore> that was the same with the kaymont3000s
[21:36] <edmoore> never really broke 37/38km for light payloads
[21:37] <daveake> yes same with Totex
[21:38] <edmoore> it seemed like a bit of a magic barrier, 40km
[21:38] <edmoore> until the howyees came along
[21:38] <daveake> yup
[21:38] <Lunar_Lander> and hydrogen, right?
[21:38] <daveake> Well I managed >40km with He once
[21:39] <daveake> But since people started using h2, nobody uses He for altitude
[21:39] <azrimzdaas> daveake Totex
[21:39] <azrimzdaas> ???!!!
[21:39] <azrimzdaas> Oh, nvm misread
[21:39] <edmoore> lol
[21:40] <edmoore> i think i see
[21:40] <edmoore> the first ukhas flight above 40km was He
[21:40] <daveake> yup, mine, recovered from Belgium
[21:40] <azrimzdaas> adamgreig Do they still fly the same? and $$$$ wise?
[21:40] <edmoore> daveake, when was that?
[21:41] <daveake> dec 2011 iirc
[21:41] <azrimzdaas> edmoore With the rockoon, what was the plan for the COCOM limits?
[21:41] <edmoore> daveake, sorry, beat you
[21:41] <azrimzdaas> Ublox only goes to 50km
[21:41] <edmoore> mark brought a micronut with him when he viited
[21:41] <adamgreig> azrimzdaas: only one way to find out, and youdon't get many shots :P
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[21:41] <edmoore> i offered a launch at cam
[21:41] <edmoore> horus 15.5
[21:41] <edmoore> aug 2011
[21:42] <daveake> ah yes
[21:42] <daveake> now I remember
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[21:42] <daveake> Mine was to bring the record back to the UK :)
[21:42] <daveake> 17. Buzz 2 - 40986 m (134468 ft)
[21:42] <daveake> 17
[21:42] <daveake> was 1
[21:42] <azrimzdaas> How did Bello-Mondo 10 manage 2km above everyone else?
[21:42] <edmoore> yes i remember the reg article :)
[21:42] <azrimzdaas> Lol
[21:43] <azrimzdaas> Seems like pure luck for most of these
[21:43] <edmoore> we think good balloons and good atmospheric conditions
[21:43] <edmoore> where the pressure altitude was higher than usual above sea level
[21:43] <daveake> yeah Steve and I flew altitude attempts on the same day
[21:43] <daveake> 82m apart iirc
[21:43] <edmoore> you'll note they're almost all summer months
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[21:45] <edmoore> there is probably some advantage to launching at the right latitudes too
[21:46] <azrimzdaas> That makes sense. The cold/dry high/low belts
[21:46] <edmoore> mm
[21:46] <azrimzdaas> Now this is just an idea that probably doesn't make sense
[21:47] <edmoore> uve come to the right pkace then
[21:47] <azrimzdaas> Would it somehow be possible to launch a balloon from a balloon?
[21:47] <azrimzdaas> That is, carry another H2 cylinder, have an automated filling and second launch, say 30km up?
[21:47] <edmoore> probably but..... why?
[21:47] <azrimzdaas> Somehow increase the altitude because less gas will be needed at a higher altitude?
[21:47] <azrimzdaas> But it would probably even out due to the thinner atmosphere?
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> Doesn't really wortk that way
[21:48] <azrimzdaas> I have no clue
[21:48] <azrimzdaas> please explain
[21:48] <adamgreig> your lift comes from how much mass of air you displace
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> you can launch the 'top' balloon from the ground with exactly the same results
[21:48] <azrimzdaas> And the density is much lower at that altitude?
[21:48] <adamgreig> so yea - you may as well launch it from the ground, barring second order effecgts like UV degredation
[21:48] <azrimzdaas> So basically you're worse off for carrying a heavy ass cylinder too.
[21:48] <adamgreig> well yes but even if it wasn't
[21:49] <azrimzdaas> And the UV degradation
[21:49] <adamgreig> it's still the same situation as a ground launched balloon
[21:49] <azrimzdaas> Totex's don't even last 5 hrs
[21:49] <adamgreig> regardless of earth atmospheric density profile
[21:49] <edmoore> a balloon does go 30km up
[21:49] <edmoore> it goes to a certain ambiant pressure
[21:50] <edmoore> so you can't launch from the sea and have it go to 30km then launch from everest and have it go to 38km
[21:50] <edmoore> it'll just go to 30km in either case
[21:50] <edmoore> sorry typo first line
[21:50] <edmoore> a balloon *doesn't* just go 30km up
[21:50] <edmoore> i.e. increase it's altitude by 30km from launch
[21:50] <azrimzdaas> That makes sense
[21:51] <Laurenceb__> rockoons are fun
[21:51] <edmoore> mmm
[21:51] <Laurenceb__> *spoiler alert* I'll be giving a talk on rockoons at this years conference
[21:51] <edmoore> another frontier
[21:51] <azrimzdaas> What is this conference?
[21:51] <Laurenceb__> UKHAS annual conference
[21:51] <edmoore> ukhas conference
[21:51] <Laurenceb__> in London
[21:52] <Laurenceb__> azimzdaas: where are you?
[21:52] <azrimzdaas> US
[21:52] <azrimzdaas> (not currently)
[21:52] <Laurenceb__> ah
[21:53] <edmoore> i was hoping to give a (short) talk about my work research this conf
[21:53] <azrimzdaas> I've been to london on vacation though. perhaps again :P
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[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> Eurorockoon
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:54] <Laurenceb__> FAA makes rockoon fairly feasible
[21:54] <azrimzdaas> Would they approve a waiver?
[21:54] <Laurenceb__> yes
[21:54] <Laurenceb__> well...
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[21:54] <Laurenceb__> there is at least a known paperwork trail you can follow
[21:55] <Laurenceb__> unlike in the UK
[21:55] <azrimzdaas> Well, that's comforting, I guess
[21:55] <azrimzdaas> I worry they wouldn't because of the uncontrolled nature of the rocket
[21:56] <azrimzdaas> Where it drifts, that is
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[21:56] <edmoore> that's what put us off
[21:56] <Laurenceb__> yeah, the first thing you need to do is a risk assesment for ground impact
[21:56] <edmoore> just looking at the 3-sigma cross ranges
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[21:56] <Laurenceb__> whats the risk if it hits someone on the head
[21:56] <Laurenceb__> i.e. not the risk of it hitting someone
[21:57] <Laurenceb__> the risk of injury assuming its going to hit someone
[21:57] <Laurenceb__> thats where I started
[21:57] <Laurenceb__> if you can get that risk down to a low level then you are off to a winning start
[21:57] <azrimzdaas> I see.
[21:57] <azrimzdaas> What about launch in overseas waters?
[21:58] <Laurenceb__> theres lots of what ifs....
[21:58] <azrimzdaas> And all data on telemetry?
[21:58] <azrimzdaas> Even live ATV on camera
[21:58] <Laurenceb__> you could launch from Somalia
[21:58] <azrimzdaas> lol. serious?
[21:58] <Laurenceb__> erm....
[21:58] Nick change: heathkid|2 -> heathkid
[21:58] <azrimzdaas> I meant more along the lines of
[21:59] <edmoore> sending atv down from a rockoon might be a bit of a mass penalty
[21:59] <Laurenceb__> yeah, and its all been seen before
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[21:59] <azrimzdaas> Couldn't be that bad
[21:59] <Laurenceb__> more interesting would be high precision position
[21:59] <Laurenceb__> hasnt been done by amateurs before
[21:59] <edmoore> it's a few W of Tx power
[22:00] <Laurenceb__> on a very high altitude rocket
[22:00] <edmoore> that's going to be a few hundred grammes
[22:00] <azrimzdaas> hm. lots of L91s?
[22:00] <edmoore> which is a great deal
[22:00] <edmoore> it's very mass sensitive
[22:00] <azrimzdaas> The motor would be a few kg itself
[22:00] <adamgreig> rockets are so unfairly mass sensitive
[22:00] <Laurenceb__> you need to optimise for the last milligram
[22:00] <azrimzdaas> But it pays for itself.
[22:01] <edmoore> yes it's the 'dry' mass that kills you
[22:01] <edmoore> well, the ratio of dry to wet
[22:01] <Laurenceb__> have you simulated this thing?
[22:01] <adamgreig> if your 100kg rocket gets 20g of payload to apogee, you need 200kg of rocket to get 40g of payload to apogee
[22:01] <adamgreig> horrifying
[22:01] <azrimzdaas> What would you use for tracking?
[22:02] <azrimzdaas> Cocom limits are an issue
[22:02] <Laurenceb__> a 434mhz transmitter
[22:02] <adamgreig> 10g of battery and circuit board and gps :P
[22:02] <edmoore> we were going to do an onboard gps
[22:02] <azrimzdaas> GPS
[22:02] <azrimzdaas> Disable cocom limits?
[22:02] <azrimzdaas> Copenhagen suborbitals did
[22:02] <edmoore> diy gps
[22:02] <Laurenceb__> ive got CW wave tracking working
[22:02] <adamgreig> you'd do your own gps and just not implement them
[22:02] <Laurenceb__> just a 10mW beacon
[22:02] <Laurenceb__> ~4m position error
[22:02] <adamgreig> with multiple receivers and trilateration Laurenceb__ ?
[22:03] <Laurenceb__> yes
[22:03] <adamgreig> you know what the W in CW stands for right?
[22:03] <Laurenceb__> yes
[22:03] <azrimzdaas> lol
[22:03] <Laurenceb__> its got to be by far the easiest way
[22:03] <adamgreig> so tell me about your CW wave tracking :P
[22:03] <azrimzdaas> LCD display
[22:04] <Laurenceb__> adamgreig: just PLL and carrier phase integration
[22:04] <adamgreig> have you actually got it working?
[22:04] <Laurenceb__> not on a rocket
[22:04] <Laurenceb__> ive got it running on the ground with some SDRs
[22:04] <adamgreig> seems like doing a spread spectrum chipping on the tx would be a lot easier than just cw
[22:04] <adamgreig> and minimally more complicated
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[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> good night
[22:05] <Laurenceb__> and HITL simulation of a rocket flight
[22:05] <azrimzdaas> good night from lahore pakistan!
[22:05] <Laurenceb__> shrug
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[22:05] <Laurenceb__> CW works fine
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[22:06] <adamgreig> fe
[22:06] <edmoore> i think if the launch gondola has gps and you know it's in the same pos as the rocket then you can presumably lock and track the CW at each of your receive stations with a known starting ref
[22:06] <Laurenceb__> im doing MSK and a PRN sequence, then tracking with a Costas, so other stuff could be added if needs be
[22:06] <Laurenceb__> edmoore: you dont even need to do that
[22:06] <adamgreig> msk and a prn sequence doesn't sound like cw
[22:06] <edmoore> yeah was gonna say
[22:06] <Laurenceb__> you can init the rocket at 0,0,0 in ECEF and it will still converge
[22:07] <edmoore> if you have prn then you know which 'wavelength' you're in at the receivers
[22:07] <Laurenceb__> but this is old news, done in the 60s
[22:07] <Laurenceb__> im discarding the PRN atm
[22:07] <Laurenceb__> just tracking with Costas and doing carrier phase integration
[22:08] <Laurenceb__> atm i dont even align the files, ive got a matlab script that takes two wav files and their lat/log/alt
[22:08] <edmoore> what is the costas loop tracking?
[22:08] <Laurenceb__> just the carrier
[22:08] <adamgreig> how do you resolve the which-wavelength ambiguity?
[22:09] <adamgreig> if the rocket wasn't moving, say, so all receivers had a constant phase offset
[22:09] <Laurenceb__> adamgreig: you dont bother
[22:09] <Laurenceb__> seriously, this was all solved in the 60s
[22:09] <adamgreig> oh hmm there's just only one solution despite integer number f wavelength offfsets?
[22:09] <Laurenceb__> this is how they did explorer1
[22:09] <Laurenceb__> yes
[22:09] <Laurenceb__> im using simulated annealing
[22:09] <Laurenceb__> but thats just cuz im a show off
[22:10] <adamgreig> interesting
[22:10] <Laurenceb__> you need some point in the trajectory that can be modelled well, so i pick the apogee
[22:10] <Laurenceb__> lock there then extend the fix outwards
[22:11] <adamgreig> how do you know when that is?
[22:11] <qyx_> mhm, SA
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[22:11] <Laurenceb__> using a time delay from launch :P
[22:11] <edmoore> right, so you do need some sort of reference to collapse all the possible solutions to one?
[22:12] <adamgreig> seems like the moment before launch, with a gps refernee from the pad, would be better and easier
[22:12] <adamgreig> else you need to know the time from balloon release to apogee to high precision which is not easy..
[22:12] <Laurenceb__> edmoore: you need at least two ground stations, with a stable clock
[22:12] <Laurenceb__> thats all
[22:13] <edmoore> no, you surely need more information than that to get a 3d lock
[22:13] <Laurenceb__> so GPS -> silabs DLL ic
[22:13] <adamgreig> doesn't two ranges give you a circle of locus?
[22:13] <edmoore> yes adamgreig
[22:13] <SpeedEvil> You do. But you also know that it's a parabola
[22:13] <SpeedEvil> which is all you need
[22:13] <Laurenceb__> adamgreig: yes, but you can solve for the trajectory at apogee
[22:13] <Laurenceb__> what SpeedEvil said
[22:13] <edmoore> right, so you do need more information
[22:13] <edmoore> this is what we're saying Laurenceb
[22:13] <Laurenceb__> with three stations you can extend out further
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[22:14] <adamgreig> still sounds like you would have a much better time of it just using a couple more receivers and a good initial position
[22:14] <Laurenceb__> two stations is all you need to find the apogee
[22:14] <adamgreig> not like receivers are the hard or expensive part in all this
[22:14] <Laurenceb__> receivers with a good enough clock are fairly hard to achieve
[22:14] <edmoore> you keep writing that you just need just coherent receivers, we keep saying no you're wrong, and then all the explanations you give are contingeant on adding extra constraints to your problem
[22:14] <adamgreig> really? GPSDO not good enough?
[22:14] <Laurenceb__> lol ok
[22:14] <Laurenceb__> GPSDO is only just good enough
[22:14] <adamgreig> but GPSDO is pretty easy for "good enough"
[22:15] <Laurenceb__> ublox clock output is too messy
[22:15] <SpeedEvil> The problem starts out with the initial constraints already present
[22:15] <Laurenceb__> ublox -> silabs reclocking ic -> receiver works
[22:15] <adamgreig> ok, that's trivially quite easy to do several of compared to the rockoon itself
[22:15] <Laurenceb__> yes :P
[22:16] <adamgreig> sounds fun though for sure
[22:16] <adamgreig> the sort of 'reverse gps' thing we were discussing a year or two back
[22:16] <adamgreig> for ultralight hab trackers etc
[22:16] <Laurenceb__> yeah
[22:16] <SpeedEvil> But easier in this case as it's in freefall
[22:16] <Laurenceb__> the other option is to ping the rockoon
[22:16] <Laurenceb__> i ruled that out as having more failure modes
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[22:17] <Laurenceb__> but its def the easiest way
[22:17] <adamgreig> still feel like maybe flying a gps is the other option, but admittedly that does need a chunk mor emass...
[22:17] <Laurenceb__> trivially simple
[22:18] <SpeedEvil> Mass and qualification
[22:18] <SpeedEvil> flying a GPS at 20000RPM may make its clock unhappy
[22:20] <adamgreig> flying your 434MHz transmitter whose phase you're relying on for tracking at 20kRPM might make its clock unhappy too!
[22:21] <Laurenceb__> it doenst matter, as long as the clock to each ground station is ok, the solution comes out
[22:21] <Laurenceb__> also short period noise isnt an issue
[22:21] <edmoore> i got some data from golledge actually
[22:21] <edmoore> on this
[22:21] <Laurenceb__> the solution is most sensitive to phase drifts over 10s to 100s
[22:22] <edmoore> their tcxo's were impressively immune to acc and vibration
[22:22] <Laurenceb__> yeah i was searching for good enough tcxos
[22:22] <Laurenceb__> couldnt find anything... on digikey
[22:23] <Laurenceb__> but some of the old HP oscillator modules are good enough for example
[22:24] <Laurenceb__> Allan variance over 10 - 100s period is the key
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[22:59] <qyx_> is there a graph theory pro?
[23:01] <qyx_> what should i ask google if i want to roughly estimate the angle between two edges?
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[00:00] --- Sat Apr 4 2015