highaltitude.log.20150326

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[02:12] <BobSaget> Upu: no problem
[02:12] <BobSaget> you still around?
[02:13] <BobSaget> just like to hear the details of any new hab preamp. i'm contemplating getting two more
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[06:35] <Upu> hi Bobsaget awake now
[06:35] <Upu> going to be months till I have a product
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[09:05] <tweetBot> @philcrump2: "Hello I found yesterday in the sea about 6 nautical mile Cherbourg your hardware." @SUSpaceflight #ukhas http://t.co/ixSu15r3YA
[09:06] <UpuWork> link dead
[09:07] <craag> one sec
[09:07] <tweetBot> @philcrump2: Emailed in: "Hello I found yesterday in the sea about 6 nautical mile Cherbourg your hardware." @SUSpaceflight #ukhas http://t.co/jLxzySSvoa
[09:07] <UpuWork> awesome
[09:07] <craag> Clearer origin :)
[09:07] <edmoore> splendid stuff
[09:07] <edmoore> that's what we like
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[09:08] <UpuWork> so they scooped it out of the sea ?
[09:08] <craag> sounds like it
[09:08] <UpuWork> nice
[09:08] <daveake> excellent
[09:08] <daveake> one day this may happen to me :/
[09:08] <UpuWork> pink tape I tell you
[09:08] <daveake> lol
[09:08] <daveake> Is this Friday's flight?
[09:08] <craag> daveake: yep
[09:08] <daveake> ha great :)
[09:09] <craag> sd cards are glued in - so should have many many eclipse pics
[09:09] <daveake> excellent
[09:11] <edmoore> last time that happened with a frenchy i sent back a bottle of english sparkling wine and some stilton
[09:11] <edmoore> the guy was actually delighted
[09:11] <Vaizki> whoaaaaa
[09:11] <craag> I think the plan is to send some english wine ;)
[09:11] <Vaizki> congrats guys!
[09:11] <edmoore> nytimber - it's actually good fizz by any standards
[09:11] <edmoore> not quite sure i'd send them normal english wine :)
[09:12] <craag> hehe
[09:12] <Vaizki> send them port wine, it's like adopted english
[09:12] <edmoore> we flew a bottle of port once
[09:12] <Vaizki> but that recovery is just awesome
[09:12] <edmoore> (space port, har har har)
[09:12] <craag> :D
[09:13] <Vaizki> edmoore, you owe me a coffeeless keyboard
[09:13] <edmoore> claim it at the conference
[09:15] <infaddict> amazing news craag!
[09:15] <daveake> Clearly, tracking is pointless, just "land" in the sea :)
[09:16] <craag> optical recovery beacon
[09:16] <craag> aka. Pink Tape
[09:17] <daveake> Careful, UpuWork will start claiming copyright on that pantone shade
[09:17] <Vaizki> yea start landing everything in the sea and include a co2 cartridge with water activation and a pink flotation balloon
[09:21] <gonzo_> actually, I wonder if it may be possible to make some sort of an inflation device that uses the water to react with something in a tube linked to the floatation aid (balloon). And some sort of valve to seal the pressure after the water has gotten in?
[09:22] <gonzo_> The only think I can think of as a reactant is calciem carbide. But an acetylene balloon could be an issue
[09:25] <Vaizki> this is a very normal thing in life vests you know.. :)
[09:26] <Vaizki> oh you mean chemically produced gas, not a trigger
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[11:48] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
[11:50] <infaddict> hello Lunar_LanderU
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[12:45] <Laurenceb> is there a way to show frame number in vlc?
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[12:48] <Vaizki_> Laurenceb, you are stopped on a freeze frame and what to know the seq# in the stream?
[12:48] <Laurenceb> yes
[12:49] <Vaizki_> I don't think there's a direct way
[12:49] <Laurenceb> anything that will let me do this on linux?
[12:50] <Vaizki_> if you play the file from the beginning and stop at the right spot, you might see number of frames played in VLC stats
[12:50] <mattbrejza> press the frame-by-frame button and count until you come across the frame you want
[12:50] <craag> you could use ffmpeg to make a copy of the video with frame number overlays
[12:50] <Vaizki_> but if you seek at all etc, then VLC is looking for a previous intra frame from your seek position to start decoding and you lose your framecount
[12:51] <Vaizki_> I recommend craag's solution
[12:52] <Vaizki_> or you could import the video into a real video editor which will tear appart the original container and repackage the video for nonlinear editing
[12:52] <Laurenceb> ill try PiTiVi
[12:52] <Vaizki_> craag's solution is probably fastest
[12:53] <Laurenceb> ok
[12:53] <Vaizki_> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15364861/frame-number-overlay-with-ffmpeg
[12:53] <SpeedEvil> Or dump out to jpegs
[12:54] <Laurenceb> yeah ill do that
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[13:33] <Vaizki_> so did it work?
[13:35] <Laurenceb> yeah thanks
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[13:38] <Babs____> Afternoon all - there are no problems other than wasted power with running atmega 328 at 3.3v but with the 16mhz boot loader right?
[13:39] <craag> err it's not rated to do it.
[13:39] <craag> The atmega requires higher voltage to reliably run faster.
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[13:39] <Babs____> Hmmm - I had it working on the breadboard
[13:39] <craag> 'reliably' :)
[13:39] <Babs____> But it just might not work reliably then?
[13:39] <tweetBot> @mattkennybrown: Look what was found out at sea :) #susf https://t.co/WU13aTOpSt
[13:40] <Vaizki_> it does work on your desk at +20C .. but will it work up there?
[13:40] <Vaizki_> http://cryoarchive.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Frequency-vs-Voltage.png
[13:40] <Babs____> Is switching to 8mhz a massive faff?
[13:40] <craag> The datasheet doesn't guarantee it'll work at all temperatures, under all conditions,etc
[13:40] <craag> no
[13:40] <Babs____> Reprogramming etc
[13:40] <Babs____> ?
[13:40] <Vaizki_> you need a 8MHz crystal and reset the fuses with ISP programmer
[13:40] <craag> Just change clock speed to 8MHz in boards.txt
[13:40] <craag> And Vaizki_ s steps
[13:40] <Babs____> Or just a case of 8mhz boot loader and a new crystal?
[13:40] <craag> yep
[13:41] <Babs____> Ok perfect thanks
[13:41] <Vaizki_> well you need to ISP program it
[13:41] <Babs____> I have that
[13:41] <Vaizki_> ok then you're fine
[13:41] <Babs____> Ok cool thanks
[13:41] <Babs____> And some power saving to boot
[13:41] <Babs____> No pun intended
[13:42] <craag> ;)
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[14:07] <malgar> are there images of eclipse taken from a balloon?
[14:10] <craag> There are :)
[14:10] <craag> http://susf.co.uk/launches/eclipse/
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[14:16] <malgar> congrats :) others?
[14:18] <craag> Dave did a flight with a load of HD cameras for the BBC coverage
[14:18] <craag> I haven't got round to looking at the shots he got.
[14:28] <Vaizki_> and one payload was just recovered today from the sea...
[14:29] <craag> Yeah the susf one - so hopefully we'll have more pics
[14:29] <gonzo_> washed up and found? or tracked?
[14:29] <craag> Just got more photos - pis are a bit rusty but sdcards are still in 1 piece :)
[14:29] <craag> found at sea
[14:29] <craag> 6 miles out
[14:29] <infaddict> craag will u ask him to send over just SD cards?
[14:29] <gonzo_> still txing?
[14:30] <craag> infaddict: Nah, whole thing. It'd be more interesting and the sdcards are glued in - we'd rather we break them than they do.
[14:30] <craag> gonzo_: Not a chance, they had 10hours+20hours battery life each.
[14:30] <infaddict> yer be interesting to see what water damage to what components
[14:31] <gonzo_> ok, just discovered by chance. Nice
[14:31] <Vaizki_> magic pink
[14:31] <craag> has to have been the pink ;)
[14:32] <craag> gonzo_: http://t.co/jLxzySSvoa
[14:37] <Vaizki_> was fsphil's payload found from the lake?
[14:37] <craag> Not yet afaik
[14:37] <Vaizki_> :(
[14:37] <Vaizki_> was there pink...
[14:38] <infaddict> i've gone for orange. think i've made a massive mistake.
[14:40] <mattbrejza> bad news for phil though, sharpie doesnt look that water resistant
[14:42] <gonzo_> english wine?!
[14:46] Nick change: lilafisc1 -> lilafisch
[14:48] <infaddict> yer so craag how did you protect contact details?
[14:49] <infaddict> where they easily readible for the guy
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[14:53] <craag> infaddict: A laminated info sheet (on the heart) and sharpie'd info on the egg
[14:53] <craag> see: http://susf.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/IMGP7389e.jpg
[14:54] <infaddict> ah right thx
[15:01] <number10> thats good news craag
[15:01] <craag> thanks number10 :)
[15:02] <craag> matt is currently sorting out DHL to bring it back home :D
[15:02] <number10> quite exciting to get some photos back
[15:02] <mattbrejza> i think he should have better secured the sign though, it was just gaffa taped on
[15:02] <mattbrejza> (eg put the string through the sign)
[15:11] <craag> Well it worked :)
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[15:48] <diegoesep> hello guys I have one question regarding decoding RTTY with dl-fldigi
[15:49] <diegoesep> using icarus sample wav file , I can decode one message after the other
[15:49] <diegoesep> but if for example I start to shift the cursor of FSK in the midlle of a message
[15:49] <diegoesep> all the characters of this message will be garbled
[15:50] <diegoesep> but it will recover decoding correctly only after the next message
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[16:11] <Ian_> The RTTY receiver is asynchronous meaning that the signal is of a start top nature. Having started to receive a character and for the sake of argument, let us assume 8 bits no parity 1 stop bit as a classic example. /
[16:12] <Ian_> The receive cam (on original mechanical RTTY receivers) would begin to turn and decode the following 8 bit places. If the start bit has been spurious due to noise. then that is not a concern of the /
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[16:14] <Ian_> Receiver. It will spit out a gable. If the cam is tripped and then half way though a valid character starts, then it will be garbled and at hand sending speeds, the next character is likely to be good, because the receive cam has had enough time to stop ready to be started correctly for the following character.
[16:15] <Ian_> In the case of a garble caused by a false start in a message where the transmission is automatic and there is only one, or two, stop bits between successive characters, there will not be an opportunity for /
[16:16] <Ian_> the receiver to become re-synchronised before the end of the message. Plain and simple. I think that this explains what you have observed ?
[16:17] <Ian_> esta verdad diegoesep
[16:18] <diegoesep> ok I understand Ian_ thanks
[16:18] <Ian_> It's not so much a dl-fldigi thing, but a fact of start stop communications. Depending upon the fortuitous nature of some character combinations it is possible that you might recover from a garble after a few characters, but that would be more good luck.
[16:19] <diegoesep> so there is no way to decode correctly if you start to receive in the middle of a message?
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[16:20] <Ian_> You are a bit reliant upon luck, but messages are short and you can tune up on one and hopefully the next won't be more than a few seconds away and not drifting badly.
[16:21] <diegoesep> ok I understand, so it is not good to have long messages in that case
[16:22] <Ian_> Interestingly if characters were sent with almost a character delay between them then recovery from a garble is almost guaranteed, but the noise margin of an effectively idle signal would make it slightly more susceptable to error too.
[16:23] <Ian_> As well as taking twice as long to send messaged :) so no recommended. 7n2 has statistically a better chance of recovery than 8n1
[16:23] <Ian_> Long messages are not a good idea, says the man who was a telegraphist and expected looooong messages to arrive by radio reliably by RTTY.
[16:29] <diegoesep> ok thanks!
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[16:34] <Ian_> nada
[16:35] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[16:37] <Ian_> Hello
[16:38] <craag> o/ Lunar_Lander
[16:38] <Lunar_Lander> hi Ian_ and craag
[16:38] <craag> FYI Lunar_Lander http://t.co/jLxzySSvoa
[16:38] <Lunar_Lander> that's a good news
[16:39] <craag> :D
[16:39] <Ian_> That is indeed excellent news.
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[17:26] <infaddict> Ordered my first ever PCB today. Next phase of project commences which is building the payload box/innards to hold everything ;-)
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[17:27] <diegoesep> infaddict, which provider did you used for the PCB?
[17:27] <jcoxon> evening all
[17:27] <infaddict> trying out hackvana
[17:27] <infaddict> evening jcoxon
[17:28] <Vaizki_> did you use hackvana cam files for the gerbers then?
[17:28] <jcoxon> I got an email this afternoon (it might have gone to others) from a publishing company who would like to use the wiki's beginners guide for a Alevel physics book
[17:28] <craag> :O
[17:28] <craag> that's awesome
[17:28] <mattbrejza> infaddict: everyone remembers their first
[17:29] <craag> which bit?
[17:29] <jcoxon> its quite good, they've lifted the guide and then the questions are about how we wrote it
[17:29] <mattbrejza> craag: home you dont intend to drive home anytime soon
[17:29] <jcoxon> and then about gas laws and parachutes
[17:29] <mattbrejza> *hope
[17:29] <craag> mattbrejza: errr
[17:29] <infaddict> Vaizki_: yes i used their cam file, with a small addition to also create a layer to place the manufacturers id in a certain place (their house stamps the board with a unique id)
[17:29] <mattbrejza> craag: the everything is red
[17:30] <jcoxon> i think we should go ahead with it but there is a slight issue about copyright
[17:31] <mattbrejza> youll have to ask everyone who contribuated to the page?
[17:31] <Miller> Hi all, sorry to interrupt your converstaion, but i was referred here by Anthony Stirk from the UKHAS site. I'm a new enthusiast and have a few questions if anybody has the time to help me out?
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[17:32] <jcoxon> mattbrejza, yeah i uess i will
[17:32] <SpeedEvil> Miller: sure
[17:32] <craag> mattbrejza: I can get on the junction after the accident - google maps reckons only 10 minutes delay
[17:32] <craag> compared to 1h20 yesterday
[17:33] <mattbrejza> well at least you arnt going east out the city
[17:34] <craag> mm
[17:34] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[17:34] <Miller> I've recently try contacting the CAA for some guidelines, but ha no response? Is this common with the CAA?
[17:35] <daveake> yup
[17:35] <mattbrejza> where did you want to launch?
[17:35] <mattbrejza> its generally 5nm away from airport approaches
[17:35] <mattbrejza> can be nearer but with restrictions
[17:35] <SpeedEvil> Miller: guidance about what.
[17:37] <Miller> I havent submitted an application to launch yet as I wanted to check that I was submitting the right form. The form I found on the CAA website refers to meteorolgical and research balloons - as my balloon would only be gathering footage for me, is this te correct orm to fill in?
[17:38] <daveake> yes don't worry about that
[17:38] <daveake> so long as it's not the one for tethered balloons (common mistake)
[17:39] <Miller> ok thsanks for that - my next question is - am i right in thinking that you can apply for a launch almost anywhere so long as it gets CAA approval?
[17:40] <daveake> You can apply for anywhere, though obviously you need permission from the landowner if it's private land
[17:41] <daveake> Actually getting permission depends on where it is
[17:41] <daveake> and if anything else is going on (e.g. local airshow)
[17:41] <Miller> Ive seen that the CAA want at least 28days notice - do they actually get back to you within that time?
[17:42] <daveake> 28 days is a theoretical minimum
[17:42] <daveake> you won't hear back till the permission is issued, which normally will be the last working day prior to the launch date
[17:43] <Miller> Anything else i should be aware of in the planning stage?
[17:45] <daveake> Have a read of http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=1732
[17:45] <daveake> That has advice about the caa side
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[17:46] <daveake> roughly where do you want to launch from ?
[17:48] <Miller> To be honest - I havent given that too much thought yet, as I am struggling to decide on what equipment to use etc... I know what I want to acheive, but not sure what is best. Thank you for the link by the way
[17:48] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Ah what has Leo been upto https://www.facebook.com/leobodnarelectronics/posts/685039294933229
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[17:54] <Miller> Is there a 'recommended' setup that most people use? I have been looking at GoPros for the cameras, but am a litte bit lost as to how best to track and recover the equipment... any suggestions?
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[17:56] <daveake> see that doc I linked to :)
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[17:56] <jcoxon> anyone know who boguard or mrspaceman2001 are?
[17:57] <Miller> ok, thanks dave - i'll take a look, take care
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[18:10] <mattbrejza> jcoxon: did those two wiki editors make any edits to the current version?
[18:10] <jcoxon> mrspaceman2001 corrected a grammer and spelling mistake
[18:11] <mattbrejza> obviously the easy way is for that person to say yes, but that seems easy enough to get around
[18:11] <jcoxon> and boguard added something in the battery section (which isn't included)
[18:11] <mattbrejza> ok
[18:11] <adamgreig> they must have provided an email address when they signed up...
[18:11] <jcoxon> well an email was easy
[18:12] <mattbrejza> so is the wiki page used as an example, then the reader has to answer questions based on the information from our quoted page?
[18:13] <jcoxon> yeah
[18:13] <jcoxon> both about how we wrote it and then onto the science
[18:13] <edmoore> what's being discussed?
[18:13] <jcoxon> then there is an activity about writing a proposal to your school for a club with a budget
[18:13] <mattbrejza> ah
[18:14] <jcoxon> its a work book rather than an exam
[18:14] <mattbrejza> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/ukhas/kDL0BQs8ie8 edmoore
[18:14] <edmoore> i should check my email
[18:15] <edmoore> more often
[18:21] <adamgreig> hmm early/late detectors when your transitions might not cross zero is a bit weird
[18:21] <adamgreig> sigh, wish i knew more real dsp
[18:22] <mattbrejza> do you get enough zero crossings to only update on zero crossings?
[18:22] <adamgreig> i get in theory half of my transitions crossing zero
[18:22] <adamgreig> but i get a transition every single symbol
[18:23] <adamgreig> on a zero crossing transition this early/late gets a positive sign if you're late and a negative sign output if you're early, no matter what direction crossing is
[18:23] <adamgreig> but if you transition without crossing zero, your sign depends on the direction of the transition entirely, and not at all on the early/lateness
[18:24] <adamgreig> not sure if that means i should only consider the zero crossing transitions (would like to avoid this as it's likely to be slower) or think of a different sort of early/late detector
[18:25] <mattbrejza> hmm
[18:26] <mattbrejza> i think the only updating on zero crossings method should work providing the symbols arnt terribly timed
[18:27] <adamgreig> hmm
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[19:04] <mfa298> mattbrejza: if you think craag's going to have issues getting home, I'm still waiting for the roads to clear enough to be sensible to go to work. Maybe it'll happen by the morning.
[19:04] <mfa298> that said I think I've probably been more productive at home.
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[19:06] <mattbrejza> has it been like that all day?
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[19:07] <mfa298> big crash at J9 just after 9am
[19:07] <Geoff-G8DHE> Apparently its only the East bound carraigway now blocked on the M27, until later this evening.
[19:07] <mfa298> and I think the M27 closed Eastbound since then
[19:07] <mfa298> and westbound has been closed at various points
[19:08] <mfa298> at one point google was suggesting going up the M3 to get just the other side of Portsmouth as the quickest route
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[19:10] <Vaizki_> You guys got snow or what?
[19:11] <mattbrejza> oh right
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[19:11] <mfa298> just idiot drivers (/me assumes someone was being an idiot)
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[19:15] <Ian_> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/m27-crash-motorist-killed-7-5403569
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[20:11] <mcbcurator> got that board posted back to you, upu
[20:11] <Upu> ah cool ok sorry about this
[20:11] <Upu> there will be a replacement in the post tomorrow
[20:12] <mcbcurator> it's not a worry
[20:12] <mcbcurator> good learning experience for the schoolkids with experiments in the payload. I've told their teachers to tell them that just like a real space mission, we don't launch until everything works and we are confident in it.
[20:12] <daveake> Did you return the battery holder and cable?
[20:13] <daveake> Possible that it's one of those two
[20:13] <Upu> I sent a full kit
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[20:13] <daveake> Though more likely the PSU
[20:13] <mcbcurator> I did not. I should have now that you mention it. I've left the multimeter on the battery cable for minutes at a time with no change though, so doubtful
[20:13] <Upu> don't worry about it
[20:13] <Upu> I sent a full kit with everything
[20:13] <Upu> consider it spares
[20:14] <mcbcurator> appreciate it. you guys have been great.
[20:15] <mcbcurator> Maybe in a couple weeks once we're up and running the weather will be better. We've had an unusually rainy and blustery spring in Texas.
[20:17] <mcbcurator> Also this is a good example for the school kids about the importance of repeated testing at every step of the process!
[20:17] <Upu> oh yes
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[20:20] <mcbcurator> Speaking of testing, what's the empirical testing show on the accuracy of the habhub predictor vs the soton ASTRA predictor?
[20:23] <Upu> I would be surprised if they don't use the same underlying code
[20:23] <Upu> they certainly use the same data
[20:23] <Upu> mattbrejza ?
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[20:26] <mattbrejza> the astra predictor doesnt assume a constant ascent rate for a start
[20:26] <mattbrejza> but i think its the same wind dta
[20:26] <adamgreig> astra's a totally different codebase
[20:26] <Upu> ok
[20:27] <adamgreig> mattbrejza: lol don't get me started on constant ascent rates
[20:27] <daveake> :)
[20:29] <mcbcurator> You can model things till the cows come home and include all sorts of extra computationally expensive simulations, but I was just wondering if anyone's plotted enough actual flights vs predictions to see how much difference there really is in real world flights.
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[20:29] <adamgreig> it's on my to-do list
[20:29] <adamgreig> but afaik no
[20:29] <adamgreig> and definitely not for the cusf predictor (habhub)
[20:30] <mcbcurator> well FWIW I've got two flights happening over the next $TIME, and I'm happy to share predictions vs. actual landing spot with whoever cares.
[20:31] <adamgreig> got the data
[20:31] <adamgreig> same people run habitat as the predictor so that's not the issue
[20:31] <adamgreig> just the time and effort to do a useful analysis
[20:31] <adamgreig> by all means do plot your predictions against your flights though
[20:31] <adamgreig> useful to see
[20:31] <mcbcurator> ah right, of course. Forgot about habitat data.
[20:32] <mfa298> I suppose what might not be in the data but could be useful is what the predictor also shows with the actual ascent/descent rate which might not be the same as the planned ascent/descent rate.
[20:33] <mfa298> although you can't really do that until after the flight :p
[20:37] <mcbcurator> Out of curiosity, how's the helium supply in the UK? Over here you can't buy it from most stores unless you already have an account with them, because of a shortage.
[20:37] <Upu> generally use H2
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[20:38] <craag> helium is just as availible (especially through resellers), just more pricey in my experience
[20:40] <TT7> Hello everybody
[20:41] <mcbcurator> over here it's running about $1/ft^2, give or take. (the internet tells me that's £23.78/m^3)
[20:41] <mcbcurator> ft^3 I mean
[20:42] <craag> Sounds about right - dependent on what quantity you buy though of course.
[20:43] <TT7> I've been just testing my tracker in a freezer and after about 20 minutes in -18°C the RFM22B stopped transmitting and stayed only in the carrier frequency. Does anyone know the origin of the problem? the RFM22B should function to -40 according to the datasheet.
[20:43] <adamgreig> try resetting and reprogramming it ;)
[20:43] <craag> hahaha
[20:43] <daveake> rfm22b?
[20:44] <daveake> try removing it
[20:44] <craag> (sorry)
[20:44] <daveake> and using something else
[20:44] <Upu> -40'C my arse
[20:44] <TT7> too late for that :)
[20:44] <Upu> keep it warm
[20:45] <Upu> serious answer : Yes they are prone to doing that
[20:45] <Upu> the crystal is cheap and only rated to -20 according to HopeRF
[20:45] <TT7> I guess I'll have to
[20:45] <craag> resetting and reprogramming regularly (about once per 2 minutes) can help
[20:45] <Upu> reset it on a regular basis
[20:45] <Upu> but they don't do cold soak well at all
[20:46] <mattbrejza> well if you have a carrier it shows the crystal is fine
[20:46] <mcbcurator> what do you mean it's too late? Surely it's better to fix the problem even at the expense of time and/or a little money as opposed to having a failure that loses the balloon?
[20:46] <daveake> usually the carriers goes awol
[20:47] <TT7> I'll try that. But the resetting was something I hoped to avoid, because it used to cause trouble in my code when I had tried it.
[20:48] <TT7> mcburator well the tracker is basically ready... except for this little inconvenience :)
[20:48] <craag> not having a working transmitter is a hell of an inconvenience ;)
[20:50] <mfa298> if it stops working when it get's a bit cold I'm not sure I'd call that ready
[20:50] <mfa298> still the odds are probably better than using GSM
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[20:53] <TT7> well I assume that not all the RFM22B flights in the past failed, so I'll just have to try replicate that
[20:53] <Upu> there is one in orbit which continues to prove all us ney sayers wrong
[20:54] <Upu> however personally they've screwed up on three of my float flights where they got cold
[20:54] <daveake> That round plug 'n' pava keeps on working
[20:54] <Upu> yeah but it never gets time to get cold :)
[20:54] <craag> But - orbit isn't as tough as hab
[20:54] <daveake> however TT7 you have one there that you know fails
[20:54] <Upu> fair point :)
[20:54] <Upu> you can change the crystal but I was never convinced it made much difference
[20:54] <Upu> still got some -40'C rated crystals for it
[20:55] <Upu> however I came to the conclusion the caps were crap on it as well
[20:55] <Upu> got bored and moved on to my own custom SI4060 design
[20:56] <adamgreig> can the si4060 do arbitrary frequencies or just steps? (or do you pull the xtal?)
[20:56] <Upu> sure you can pull it thats how the NTX2B/MTX2 work
[20:56] <adamgreig> oh, the mtx2 is crystal pulling a constant carrier? interesting
[20:56] <adamgreig> i need to investigate why my mtx2 was not doing what i expected sometime
[20:56] <Upu> I think
[20:56] <Upu> its the same circuit as the NTX2B
[20:56] <Upu> hang on
[20:58] <TT7> si4060 is what I'd like to try with my future tracker... but this time I'll have to work with this... on the other hand there will be a camera that heats a lot when capturing video, so some careful positioning and it might work itself out
[21:01] <mcbcurator> you could get free heating with a clear plastic container. Insolation and all.
[21:03] <TT7> well weight is a bit of a factor with this hab... I'll work it out somehow
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[21:06] <mcbcurator> oooh, NASA is inflating the new super pressure balloon in NZ right now. http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nasa-csbf-ldsd
[21:06] <arko> ha
[21:06] <arko> beat me to it
[21:06] <arko> was just about to link it
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[21:08] <mcbcurator> this balloon is so big that they have a pilot balloon above it that holds the inflator (it fills from the top).
[21:08] <TT7> I guess NASA already sorted their rfm22b problem :)
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[21:09] <mcbcurator> Hahaha, I'm imagining a multi-million cubic foot balloon with a sparkfun board ducttaped to the side.
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[21:10] <mcbcurator> don't know what they use for their LOS downlink. They say they have a ton of bandwidth for both data and reprogramming of experiments when they can see the balloon. OTH they use satellite and have a lot less.
[21:11] <TT7> tight budget :)
[21:12] <mcbcurator> one of their meteorologists gave a talk here last week. He said they use multiple tanker trucks full of helium for each balloon.
[21:12] <TT7> didn't even have to run with the wind
[21:14] <TT7> is there a reason why not use hydrogen for them?
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[21:15] <arko> hindenberg?
[21:15] <mcbcurator> NASA says safety.
[21:15] <arko> ^
[21:16] <mcbcurator> also the US government owns a shitload of helium.
[21:16] <arko> safety management of that much hydrogen is insane
[21:17] <mcbcurator> their biggest balloons are 60 million cubic feet
[21:19] <TT7> I see. I haven't really worked with hydrogen myself yet
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[21:27] <SpeedEvil> For 10m^2 helium is a no-brainer.
[21:27] <SpeedEvil> err
[21:27] <SpeedEvil> hydrogen
[21:27] <SpeedEvil> Tiny leaks that don't matter on the scale of a massive balloon can be quite adequate to support combustion
[21:42] <Babs> evening - capacitors like this http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/tantalum-capacitors/4647827/ have a voltage in their spec. what is the voltage in this specification and is it important when selecting a component? my board runs at 3v3
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[21:42] <Upu> its the maximum voltage they will run at before exploding
[21:42] <Upu> don't use tantalums use MLCC
[21:43] <Upu> tantalums are made from the tears of baby seals
[21:43] <Babs> i'm basically trying to find the components off https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10967
[21:44] <Babs> i am ambivalent to baby seals though
[21:44] <Babs> even if there was a bit of skin where there should be a soldering tab, i would still solder it
[21:44] <Upu> http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?st=68%C2%B5F&catalogId=15001&categoryId=700000005419&langId=44&storeId=10151
[21:45] <Upu> just make sure the voltage rating is over the max voltage you will ever put in
[21:45] <Babs> there is so much choice. it is like going to a tesco extra.
[21:46] <Upu> well generally I just narrow it down to the size I want (at that value probably 1206/1216)
[21:46] <Upu> make sure it runs down to -40'C
[21:46] <Upu> and make sure the voltage is more than I am ever going to put in
[21:47] <Babs> ok cool
[21:47] <Upu> on that particular stepup the inductor is fairly critical
[21:48] <Upu> I still have some NCP1402's I think if you want them
[21:52] <prog> hello folks
[21:52] <Babs> thanks for the offer Upu - I've already got a few of those but i appreciate the offer. PS your stuff arrived today
[21:52] <Babs> quality heat shrinkage
[21:52] <Upu> cool glad it got there
[21:52] <Upu> hmm ?
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[22:04] <Vaizki_> heat shrinkage.. that's what happens in Finland when you go from the sauna to swim at the hole in the ice
[22:08] <edmoore> Babs, further consideration with ceramic (mlcc) caps
[22:08] <edmoore> there are a whole bunch of dielectrics
[22:08] <edmoore> you can have high energy density (by volume) or high accuracy/stability, pick one
[22:08] <edmoore> for decoupling capacitors almost always the former
[22:08] <edmoore> for filters and stuff, the latter
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[22:09] <edmoore> the common dielectrics for the former are x5r and x7r - those are the best anyway, avoid others
[22:09] <edmoore> however, they have an absolutely shitty voltage coefficieinet
[22:09] <edmoore> i.e. capacitance goes down with voltage
[22:09] <edmoore> the upshot is that i would pick one with a voltage rating at least 2-3 times the desired operating voltage
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[22:10] <edmoore> for the precise capacitors for filtering, the common dielectric is c0g or np0 (same thing), they have basically no voltage coefficient
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[22:15] <rixarena> ?
[22:15] <rixarena> #winning
[22:16] <arko> edmoore: what type of dielectic do you usually use for RF pcbs?
[22:17] <edmoore> depends on what the cap is doing
[22:17] <arko> err
[22:17] <edmoore> but usually you get rf-grade capacitors
[22:17] <edmoore> they're made different
[22:17] <edmoore> lower internal parasitics and so on
[22:17] <arko> sorry, allow me to clarify
[22:17] <arko> i mean the material between the copper in the pcb, usually FR4
[22:17] <edmoore> the self resonant freqs are usually higher
[22:17] <arko> there are different types right?
[22:17] <edmoore> oh sure
[22:18] <edmoore> so 99% of the time i just use fr4 and deal with it
[22:18] <edmoore> i don;t go that high in freq
[22:18] <edmoore> maybe 5ghz tops
[22:18] <edmoore> but there are all sorts of substrates made of things like teflon
[22:18] <arko> ah
[22:18] <edmoore> rogers make stuff called duroid (teflon again) that is quite popular
[22:19] <arko> yeah all this fancy diy rf radar stuff im looking recommends against fr4
[22:19] <edmoore> yeah
[22:19] <arko> yeah, heard rogers before
[22:19] <edmoore> it's just lossy and not that well characterised
[22:19] <edmoore> but equally if you're hand tuning a prototype board it makes no difference
[22:19] <edmoore> or if you're not looking at mega-weak signals
[22:20] <arko> there it is, rogers 4000 series
[22:20] <edmoore> but if you need to make 1000 VNAs then you use duroid
[22:20] <arko> wow thats some beautiful materal
[22:21] <arko> uniform color
[22:21] <arko> i really wish the rf design class was offered before i graduate :/
[22:22] <arko> this stuff is so interesting
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[22:22] <BrainDamage> you want exotic substrates also if you plan to implement narrow filters on microstrip
[22:23] <BrainDamage> because losses limit your ultimate filter's Q
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[22:25] <mattbrejza> edmoore: what do you think of these http://uk.farnell.com/avx/gx02yd104kat2-500/cap-rf-x5r-0-1uf-16v-0402/dp/2094036
[22:26] <mattbrejza> someone here said they were using just one of these to decouple a high speed digital thing
[22:26] <mattbrejza> as opposed to the usual thing of a selection of different capacitors to decouple from MHz to gHz
[22:29] <gonzo_nb> duriod is nice, but expensive
[22:29] <edmoore> not used them but it was avx i had in mind when mentioning caps designed for v high frqs
[22:32] <Vaizki_> decoupling turned out to be much more of a black art full of debate than I thought it would be when I started looking into it last year...
[22:33] <edmoore> yeah
[22:33] <mattbrejza> cost wasnt an issue here when the asic cost them £15k or so
[22:33] <edmoore> 'just use 100n' works for the first layer of the 20 layer pyramid of understanding
[22:33] <edmoore> but that first layer is the biggest layer
[22:35] <Vaizki_> I was told to not ask questions and use 100n if I don't have anything past 10MHz
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[22:41] <mattbrejza> most ICs will tell you in the datasheet anyway
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[22:45] <Vaizki_> yes of course I check them first...
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[22:46] <Vaizki_> but it's time to sleep so I will relieve you from entertaining me ;)
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[23:12] <Dale> Hi guys, I know this GPS module wont work for what I want, but was wondering
[23:12] <Dale> on this data sheet
[23:12] <Dale> http://www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/Maestro_GPS_Receiver_A2235_H_User_Manual_V12.pdf
[23:12] <Dale> on page 14
[23:12] <Dale> is note 5, compulsory to get it working
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[23:15] <Dale> can't seem to get any coherent data out of the module
[23:15] <Dale> and im pretty sure the baudrate is right
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[23:16] <Dale> |11q1p1Vx11T0q011p1q1Tx1q10q1q11q0~001q11Tx1q1q1Tx is whats its returning
[23:16] <Dale> or do you think it could be a data type error?
[23:19] <zyp> that really looks like a baudrate error
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[23:21] <mikestir> of course note 5 is compulsory
[23:21] <mikestir> why do you think they wrote it?
[23:21] <Dale> I have it configured per the datasheet
[23:21] <mikestir> have you sent that binary command?
[23:23] <Dale> not yet, will try, from the note I assumed it was for users of the other module, in order to allow them to drop it in
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[23:23] <zyp> that's how I read it too
[23:25] <mikestir> I read it as A2235 defaults to binary, so if you drop it in as a replacement for the 2035 you have to command it back to NMEA
[23:25] <zyp> according to 3.6, default mode is set by straps on 2235
[23:26] <mikestir> I mean you could just ignore the first half of the sentence: "[you] have to send an OSP command to switch the protocol and baud rate to NMEA"
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[23:26] <mikestir> it does say in note 5 that you can strap gpio0 and gpio1 - did you do that?
[23:27] <Dale> thats how I have it configured, with the two 2.2k pull-up resistors to the 1.8v pin
[23:27] <Dale> from gpio0, and 1
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[23:28] <mikestir> why 1v8? the IO voltage looks to be 3v3
[23:29] <Dale> page 15 minimum configuration
[23:30] <zyp> and that makes it 4800 baud
[23:30] <mikestir> oh yeah. don't know then
[23:32] <zyp> I'm still inclined to believe you're reading it too fast, the characters in your string are mostly characters with series of multiple identical bits
[23:33] <Dale> just gave solder joints a quick heat with flux
[23:34] <zyp> 0 is 0001100001, 1 is 0001100011, q is 0011100011 (including start/stop bits)
[23:34] <Dale> $GPGSA,A,1,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,*1E
[23:35] <Dale> was crappy solder joints (y)
[23:35] <Dale> cheers
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[23:46] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[00:00] --- Fri Mar 27 2015