highaltitude.log.20150315

[00:00] nv0o_david (~dwhite152@c-67-162-187-71.hsd1.mo.comcast.net) left irc: Quit: KVIrc 4.3.1 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/ - 64bit Windows version by http://kvirc.d00p.de/
[00:00] ejcweb (~ejcweb@77-56-55-173.dclient.hispeed.ch) left irc: Ping timeout: 256 seconds
[00:02] ejcweb (~ejcweb@77-56-55-173.dclient.hispeed.ch) joined #highaltitude.
[00:03] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[00:07] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03MTG003 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=MTG003
[00:12] StephenACS (3fe49576@gateway/web/freenode/ip.63.228.149.118) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[00:15] Lunar_Lander (~kevin@p5488993F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) left irc: Quit: Verlassend
[00:16] DL1SGP (~felix64@dhcp183.signon1.uk.beevpn.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[00:18] DL1SGP (~felix64@dhcp5.signon4.uk.beevpn.com) joined #highaltitude.
[00:30] gonzo_nb (~gonzo@host-92-14-209-118.as43234.net) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[00:36] Steffanx (~steffanx@unaffiliated/steffanx) left irc: Ping timeout: 264 seconds
[01:02] jededu (~quassel@host213-122-104-212.range213-122.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[01:20] bertrik (~quassel@rockbox/developer/bertrik) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[01:35] DL7AD_ (~quassel@p4FD40055.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #highaltitude.
[01:37] scrapit85 (~scrapit85@87.114.213.142) joined #highaltitude.
[01:38] DL7AD (~quassel@p54996227.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) left irc: Ping timeout: 256 seconds
[01:38] scrapit85 (~scrapit85@87.114.213.142) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[01:43] Bob_Saget (~root@059149185193.ctinets.com) joined #highaltitude.
[01:45] ejcweb (~ejcweb@77-56-55-173.dclient.hispeed.ch) left irc: Ping timeout: 264 seconds
[01:47] thasti (~thasti@46.115.3.73) joined #highaltitude.
[01:48] DL7AD_ (~quassel@p4FD40055.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[01:57] Laurenceb_ (~Laurence@host86-150-3-251.range86-150.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[01:57] thasti (~thasti@46.115.3.73) left irc: Ping timeout: 264 seconds
[02:23] scrapit85 (~scrapit85@87.114.213.142) joined #highaltitude.
[02:25] scrapit85 (~scrapit85@87.114.213.142) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[02:46] KT5TK1 (~thomas@p5B37B774.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #highaltitude.
[02:47] KT5TK (~thomas@p5B37BE11.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) left irc: Ping timeout: 256 seconds
[02:53] ejcweb (~ejcweb@77-56-55-173.dclient.hispeed.ch) joined #highaltitude.
[02:57] ejcweb (~ejcweb@77-56-55-173.dclient.hispeed.ch) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[03:10] Bob_Saget (~root@059149185193.ctinets.com) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[03:50] Upu (~Upu@2a00:14f0:e028::2) left irc: Ping timeout: 265 seconds
[03:55] Upu (~Upu@2a00:14f0:e028::2) joined #highaltitude.
[05:58] es5nhc (~tarmo@108-40-71-217.static.internet.emt.ee) joined #highaltitude.
[06:13] DL1SGP (~felix64@dhcp5.signon4.uk.beevpn.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 264 seconds
[06:14] DL1SGP (~felix64@dhcp140.signon3.uk.beevpn.com) joined #highaltitude.
[06:37] scrapit85 (~scrapit85@87.114.213.142) joined #highaltitude.
[06:47] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4490357.home.otenet.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[06:54] jcoxon (~jcoxon@87.114.171.19) joined #highaltitude.
[06:58] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4490357.home.otenet.gr) left irc: Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz&
[07:00] thasti (~thasti@46.115.3.73) joined #highaltitude.
[07:06] edmoore (~ed@host86-158-21-53.range86-158.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[07:06] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4490357.home.otenet.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[07:31] thasti (~thasti@46.115.3.73) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[07:51] mikestir (~quassel@cpc10-brmb8-2-0-cust107.1-3.cable.virginm.net) joined #highaltitude.
[07:52] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4490357.home.otenet.gr) left irc: Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz&
[07:54] bertrik (~quassel@rockbox/developer/bertrik) joined #highaltitude.
[07:58] edmoore (~ed@host86-158-21-53.range86-158.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
[08:07] onnar (540dffe6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.255.230) joined #highaltitude.
[08:16] Babs_ (522fe266@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.47.226.102) joined #highaltitude.
[08:25] edmoore (~ed@host86-158-21-53.range86-158.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[08:29] polymorf (~polymorf@AToulouse-651-1-43-250.w90-30.abo.wanadoo.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 264 seconds
[08:35] bertrik (~quassel@rockbox/developer/bertrik) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[08:40] bertrik (~quassel@rockbox/developer/bertrik) joined #highaltitude.
[08:45] polymorf (~polymorf@AToulouse-651-1-43-250.w90-30.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[08:46] polymorf (~polymorf@AToulouse-651-1-43-250.w90-30.abo.wanadoo.fr) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[08:49] LazyLeopard (~irc-clien@chocky.demon.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[09:00] guido_ (~guido@s5596f950.adsl.online.nl) joined #highaltitude.
[09:13] number10 (5689cd14@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.137.205.20) joined #highaltitude.
[09:27] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
[09:33] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP5NVX after 037 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP5NVX
[09:33] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03STBAL2 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=STBAL2
[09:40] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486694.home.otenet.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[09:45] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[09:45] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486694.home.otenet.gr) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[09:51] infaddict (~infaddict@90.210.88.136) joined #highaltitude.
[09:53] mikestir (~quassel@cpc10-brmb8-2-0-cust107.1-3.cable.virginm.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[09:57] SushiKenBrown_ (~quassel@cmr-208-124-174-194.cr.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #highaltitude.
[09:57] DL7AD (~quassel@p4FD40055.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #highaltitude.
[09:59] SushiKenBrown (~quassel@cmr-208-124-174-194.cr.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 256 seconds
[10:04] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VE2WMG-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VE2WMG-11
[10:18] DL1SGP (~felix64@dhcp140.signon3.uk.beevpn.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 265 seconds
[10:20] DL1SGP (~felix64@dhcp221.signon1.uk.beevpn.com) joined #highaltitude.
[10:24] nv0o_david (~dwhite152@c-67-162-187-71.hsd1.mo.comcast.net) joined #highaltitude.
[10:46] <infaddict> morning. i'm getting some Eagle errors called "Stop Mask" on layer 29 which is the tStop layer. Looks like they refer to where text is too close or overlapping with drill holes.
[10:46] <infaddict> The Ava NTX2B library part is one such example
[10:46] <infaddict> Can these be ignored?
[11:00] <edmoore> if you're sure that the error is text (silkscreen?) and you don't mind it going over holes, then ok.
[11:00] <edmoore> perhaps whack up a screenshot though
[11:01] <infaddict> hey edmoore
[11:01] <edmoore> yo
[11:02] <infaddict> here's my board in gerb format: http://gerblook.org/pcb/ZTL77tNepwxfSCezqgCkC6#front
[11:02] <infaddict> after any general feedback too as first board i've ever done
[11:02] <infaddict> so not trying to make it as small as poss, keeping things nicely spaced and simple ;-)
[11:02] <infaddict> let me get a screenshot of the errors now...
[11:03] <infaddict> https://www.dropbox.com/s/gop9izwl61rtr00/Screenshot%202015-03-15%2011.03.18.png?dl=0
[11:04] <infaddict> That's one example where silkscreen text is v close or overlapping holes. i dont mind that as long as board house won't complain.
[11:04] <edmoore> oh i see
[11:05] <edmoore> yes should be ok
[11:05] <infaddict> this isnt my part, its from Ava library
[11:05] <infaddict> other LED's from spark fun lib do same thing
[11:05] <mattbrejza> the board house wont print over pads
[11:05] <infaddict> where LED shape silkscreen is part of the pads
[11:05] <edmoore> have you put the board houses' restrictions in your drc?
[11:05] <infaddict> yep
[11:05] <mattbrejza> but if you have text that has stopmask errors then itll probably look a bit untidy
[11:05] <edmoore> ok
[11:05] <infaddict> thats whats bringing these up
[11:05] <infaddict> but i have all layers on too
[11:06] <infaddict> not sure if i can move the text if its part of a library?
[11:06] <mattbrejza> youll have to modify the part
[11:06] <mattbrejza> right click, open package
[11:07] <infaddict> ah right! for LED's, the silkscreen is on top and also gives error like this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/152qnmihbhm1wb6/Screenshot%202015-03-15%2011.06.30.png?dl=0
[11:09] <infaddict> when i right click open package i get: "Library Ava.lbr was not found in current library path(s). Adjust library paths or export drawing libs first"
[11:09] <infaddict> weird as I have Ava.lbr and can see it when i add parts and its on my schematic/board
[11:10] <infaddict> brb
[11:12] edmoore (~ed@host86-158-21-53.range86-158.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
[11:13] WolfB (d9e04c8f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.224.76.143) joined #highaltitude.
[11:13] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03NERDTEST - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=NERDTEST
[11:18] edmoore (~ed@host86-158-21-53.range86-158.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[11:22] M0NRD_Andrew (56092859@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.9.40.89) joined #highaltitude.
[11:25] Strykar (~wakka@122.169.11.70) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[11:27] Strykar (~wakka@122.170.55.253) joined #highaltitude.
[11:35] edmoore (~ed@host86-158-21-53.range86-158.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
[11:40] PE2G (~PE2G@a83-161-208-176.adsl.xs4all.nl) joined #highaltitude.
[11:44] PD5TON (541aec32@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.26.236.50) joined #highaltitude.
[11:53] Hix (~Hix@97e05725.skybroadband.com) joined #highaltitude.
[11:55] infaddict (~infaddict@90.210.88.136) left irc: Quit: Leaving...
[11:57] M0NRD_Andrew (56092859@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.9.40.89) left irc: Ping timeout: 246 seconds
[12:06] polymorf (~polymorf@AToulouse-651-1-43-250.w90-30.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[12:15] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KF4OVF-2 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KF4OVF-2
[12:16] jededu (~quassel@host213-122-104-212.range213-122.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[12:19] jcoxon (~jcoxon@87.114.171.19) left irc: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
[12:21] nlincs1 (5772d58e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.114.213.142) joined #highaltitude.
[12:34] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) joined #highaltitude.
[12:34] DL1SGP (~felix64@dhcp221.signon1.uk.beevpn.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[12:36] DL1SGP (~felix64@dhcp177.signon4.uk.beevpn.com) joined #highaltitude.
[12:37] ejcweb (~ejcweb@77-56-55-173.dclient.hispeed.ch) joined #highaltitude.
[12:45] jcoxon (~jcoxon@87.114.171.19) joined #highaltitude.
[12:46] DL1SGP (~felix64@dhcp177.signon4.uk.beevpn.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 256 seconds
[12:49] jcoxon (~jcoxon@87.114.171.19) left irc: Client Quit
[12:51] mikestir (~quassel@cpc10-brmb8-2-0-cust107.1-3.cable.virginm.net) joined #highaltitude.
[12:51] gonzo_nb (~gonzo@host-92-14-209-118.as43234.net) joined #highaltitude.
[12:54] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) left irc: Quit: Ex-Chat
[12:54] DL1SGP (~felix64@dhcp32.signon1.uk.beevpn.com) joined #highaltitude.
[12:58] scrapit85 (~scrapit85@87.114.213.142) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[13:09] W1GIV (~quassel@c-76-23-151-251.hsd1.ct.comcast.net) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[13:10] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03FSUS after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=FSUS
[13:12] infaddict (~infaddict@90.210.88.136) joined #highaltitude.
[13:13] PE0SAT (~ineo@2001:981:356d:1::35) left irc: Quit: leaving
[13:19] Laurenceb_ (~Laurence@host86-150-3-251.range86-150.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[13:21] jcoxon (~jcoxon@87.114.171.19) joined #highaltitude.
[13:22] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SUSF after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SUSF
[13:25] PE0SAT (~ineo@2001:981:356d:1::35) joined #highaltitude.
[13:25] <Ian_> infaddict, I know nothing, but is the missing top copper ground plane surrounding the trace between the RF Ant and the NTX2, and between the Arduino and JP1, is this just something that looks odd or should it be fixed?
[13:27] <infaddict> hi Ian_ i'm not sure. Eagle removed that copper when I inserted the 6 vias around the main signal trace.
[13:27] <Ian_> A library is just a starting point for you to make it meet your needs/style. Not something to be considered as necessarily set in stone
[13:27] <infaddict> i believe it things they are maybe too close so removed the copper
[13:28] <infaddict> same thing happened between 2 traces to the GPS unit. It decided to remove the copper island in the middle.
[13:28] <infaddict> things/thinks
[13:29] <Ian_> I realise, but wondered if a slight mod to force the pour might be a good idea. I also actually was trying to get the opinion of those that know. Good work though, I haven't got to Eagle yet.
[13:30] <infaddict> mmm lets hope some other guys chip in with thoughts, as i said its my first ever board. i've triple checked schematic matches breadboard and PCB matches schematic.
[13:30] <infaddict> so i think routes/traces are in the correct place just need advice on how I've routed them, esp the RF line
[13:30] <infaddict> i also went for a 2 layer ground plane (top and bottom) and would like some opinion on that
[13:31] <Ian_> Distributed decoupling?
[13:31] <infaddict> Eagle was a PITA to begin with as some of the controls were alien to most other software. But I soon got used to it.
[13:32] <infaddict> sry but i have no idea what distributed decoupling is ;-)
[13:33] <Ian_> I suppose that it wouldn't be if it's ground top and bottom - Faraday cage maybe :)
[13:33] <Ian_> Is everyone away at lunch or watching the F1 I wonder?
[13:33] <infaddict> F1 was early this morning, 5am UK
[13:33] <infaddict> repeats on now tho
[13:34] <infaddict> as usual pole=winner. boring ;-/
[13:34] <fsphil> My F1 key isn't doing too much
[13:34] <Ian_> Ah, bed early then scraping the violin at Mothering Sunday service
[13:34] <Ian_> fsphil :)
[13:35] <Ian_> My thought is that the incomplete pour around the RF trace would affect impedance, although might not be significant
[13:35] RocketBoy (~steverand@05464950.skybroadband.com) joined #highaltitude.
[13:35] <Ian_> Any thought on that fsphil?
[13:35] <infaddict> fsphil: talking about this in case u missed it: http://gerblook.org/pcb/ZTL77tNepwxfSCezqgCkC6#front
[13:36] <infaddict> see incomplete pour around RF line (top left) and also between some traces to GPS.
[13:36] <infaddict> sry not to GPS, to SD card (bottom right)
[13:37] <fsphil> maybe your bottom and top layers are not in the same net?
[13:37] <fsphil> I'd have thought it would join them with the vias otherwise
[13:38] <infaddict> mmm they are both part of "GND" net
[13:38] <infaddict> unless vias have some sort of spacing rule
[13:38] <fsphil> is the via on the bottom layer connected ok?
[13:38] <infaddict> let me take a look
[13:39] <craag> You need to name the vias to GND too
[13:39] <infaddict> aha!
[13:39] <infaddict> craag: that is the issue then
[13:39] <infaddict> oops
[13:39] <infaddict> let me fix that and see what happens
[13:39] <craag> name one, then just copy it :)
[13:40] <Ian_> Seems I haven't a clue about the answers but may have the right questions to ask eh?
[13:41] <infaddict> Now looks better, like this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xukneqx9udbdwgj/Screenshot%202015-03-15%2013.41.07.png?dl=0
[13:41] <craag> :)
[13:42] <infaddict> is the lack of copper between those traces going down the the SD header normal?
[13:42] <infaddict> i think Eagle has done that because those areas are "islands"
[13:42] <craag> Put a GND via in the middle and it'll appear
[13:42] <craag> yep
[13:45] <infaddict> great that worked too craag
[13:45] <infaddict> what are the significance of the white crosshair on the via?
[13:46] <infaddict> Reason I ask is that one of those areas is a bit tight and the white crosshair touches a trace: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4a6g3an75sgvf1s/Screenshot%202015-03-15%2013.46.37.png?dl=0
[13:48] <craag> That's just the marking for the 'drill' layer I believe
[13:49] <craag> Don't worry about it touching anything
[13:49] <infaddict> ah ok cool
[13:49] <craag> (I think I have that layer off on my setup)
[13:49] <Ian_> You could also have put the via in a fatter bit further up I guess.
[13:49] <infaddict> so only issue i think i have left is 8 stop mask errors where silkscreen text is close or on top of drill holes.
[13:50] <infaddict> mostly caused by library parts that have that in built
[13:50] <craag> I don't worry about that as long as it won't make the text too unreadable - the fab house will just deal with it.
[13:51] <infaddict> yer its just edge of 1 or 2 letters and very insignificant and wont impact me being able to read it
[13:51] <infaddict> oh i also wanted to ask opinion on vert or horiz mounting of NTX2B. i've gone for vertical to save space. any pros/cons of either in terms of performance or protection?
[13:51] RocketBoy (~steverand@05464950.skybroadband.com) left irc: Quit: RocketBoy
[13:51] <Ian_> Skreen printing not over anything that is to be soldered?
[13:52] RocketBoy (~steverand@05464950.skybroadband.com) joined #highaltitude.
[13:53] <infaddict> Heres an example: https://www.dropbox.com/s/152qnmihbhm1wb6/Screenshot%202015-03-15%2011.06.30.png?dl=0
[13:53] <infaddict> seems to complain about 1 specific part of that basic LED, but not the fact the whole LED shape is also across the drill hole
[13:53] <infaddict> And this one, where edge of NTX2B lettering is just touching: https://www.dropbox.com/s/gop9izwl61rtr00/Screenshot%202015-03-15%2011.03.18.png?dl=0
[13:54] <infaddict> i dont care about losing any of these silk traces, just want to ensure its not rejected by fab house
[13:55] PE2G (PE2G@a83-161-208-176.adsl.xs4all.nl) left #highaltitude.
[13:56] rwsq1 (~rwsq1@host81-150-191-18.in-addr.btopenworld.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[14:01] scrapit85 (~scrapit85@87.114.213.142) joined #highaltitude.
[14:01] <infaddict> ok latest updates: http://gerblook.org/pcb/Xc5SnWFyvZwUG9sVBZFo39
[14:01] <infaddict> any further feedback much appreciated
[14:09] rwsq1 (~rwsq1@host81-150-191-18.in-addr.btopenworld.com) joined #highaltitude.
[14:12] infaddict (~infaddict@90.210.88.136) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[14:19] <Vaizki> you have so much space, why not break out a few extra pins from the arduino and the gps serial pins into headers
[14:20] <craag> Does anyone know how to fix the dl-fldigi dependency issues on ubuntu trusty (14.04)?
[14:20] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[14:20] <craag> dl-fldigi : Depends: libxmlrpc-c++4 but it is not installable
[14:20] <Vaizki> so if you want to add something small for a later flight for example, you ignt be able to just add it to this board
[14:21] <Vaizki> might
[14:21] thasti (~thasti@95.89.9.247) joined #highaltitude.
[14:21] <Vaizki> craag, any idea why that lib is not installable?
[14:23] <Vaizki> does it exist in repos?
[14:23] <mikestir> craag: are you installing from a binary package? The relevant dev package is libxmlrpc-c++8-dev
[14:23] thasti (thasti@95.89.9.247) left #highaltitude.
[14:24] <mikestir> I guess if you unpack the dev and edit the control file to make it depend on libxmlrpc-c++8 instead of 4 then it will probably work anyway, or just build it from source
[14:24] <craag> mikestir: I'm trying to install from the ppa/deb file
[14:24] <mikestir> s/dev/deb/
[14:25] <craag> 'just build it from source' - I seem to remember trying that before, would rather not go there again!
[14:25] <craag> I'll try editing the control file, thanks
[14:25] <mikestir> I built it just this morning - went ok
[14:26] <Vaizki> or just installl the libxmlrpc package separately and the force install of dl-fldigi?
[14:27] <mikestir> could do but in my experience that just makes the package manager complain a lot on every future package installation
[14:28] <mikestir> craag: I couldn't get the (vanilla) fldigi build deps to install, but I just installed the binary fldigi package to get the runtime perl modules, then install: libcurl4-openssl-dev libjpeg62-dev autoconf libxmlrpc-c++8-dev libfltk1.3-dev libsamplerate0-dev hamlib-dev
[14:29] <mikestir> then the only other non-obvious thing that is needed is commenting out that "TESTS" line in Makefile.am
[14:29] jcoxon (~jcoxon@87.114.171.19) left irc: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
[14:30] <Vaizki> yea apt will probably ask you to fix it on every subsequent run if you just --nodeps install it
[14:30] <Vaizki> I have not used debian/ubuntu for years
[14:34] <craag> Will have to build it - installed fine but is looking for .so.4 version on run.
[14:37] <mikestir> craag: follow the instructions on the wiki for the DL3.1 tag but skip the build-deps step and install the packages I listed above - that worked for me
[14:37] <mikestir> oh and install the vanilla fldigi package from the repo first
[14:38] <craag> thanks :)
[14:38] jcoxon (~jcoxon@87.114.171.19) joined #highaltitude.
[14:43] SP5NON (4e9a4085@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.154.64.133) joined #highaltitude.
[14:44] SP5NON (4e9a4085@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.154.64.133) left irc: Client Quit
[14:52] WolfB (d9e04c8f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.224.76.143) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[14:52] Hoogvlieger (~Hoogvlieg@ip41-37-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[15:00] edmoore (~ed@host86-158-21-53.range86-158.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[15:00] gb73d (~gb73d@81-178-180-134.dsl.pipex.com) joined #highaltitude.
[15:01] jcoxon (~jcoxon@87.114.171.19) left irc: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
[15:03] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[15:10] dl3yc (~yc@46.115.3.73) joined #highaltitude.
[15:15] malgar (~malgar@adsl-ull-239-53.49-151.net24.it) joined #highaltitude.
[15:16] jcoxon (~jcoxon@87.114.171.19) joined #highaltitude.
[15:18] jcoxon (~jcoxon@87.114.171.19) left irc: Client Quit
[15:23] Crash-1 (~Crash-1@104.131.48.176) left irc: Ping timeout: 255 seconds
[15:24] MoALTz_ (~no@78.11.179.104) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[15:24] MoALTz (~no@78.11.179.104) joined #highaltitude.
[15:26] Crash-1 (~Crash-1@104.131.48.176) joined #highaltitude.
[15:31] gb73dx (~gb73d@81-178-181-118.dsl.pipex.com) joined #highaltitude.
[15:32] gb73dx (~gb73d@81-178-181-118.dsl.pipex.com) left irc: Client Quit
[15:32] mfa298 (~mfa298@gateway.yapd.net) left irc: Quit: leaving
[15:32] gb73dx (~gb73d@81-178-181-118.dsl.pipex.com) joined #highaltitude.
[15:33] gb73d (~gb73d@81-178-180-134.dsl.pipex.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 265 seconds
[15:36] mfa298 (~mfa298@gateway.yapd.net) joined #highaltitude.
[15:37] mfa298 (~mfa298@gateway.yapd.net) left irc: Client Quit
[15:37] mfa298 (~mfa298@gateway.yapd.net) joined #highaltitude.
[15:40] mfa298 (~mfa298@gateway.yapd.net) left irc: Client Quit
[15:40] mfa298 (~mfa298@gateway.yapd.net) joined #highaltitude.
[15:42] PD5TON (541aec32@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.26.236.50) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[15:43] dl3yc (~yc@46.115.3.73) left irc: Quit: Leaving.
[15:43] mfa298 (~mfa298@gateway.yapd.net) left irc: Client Quit
[15:44] mfa298 (~mfa298@gateway.yapd.net) joined #highaltitude.
[15:50] mfa298 (~mfa298@gateway.yapd.net) left irc: Quit: leaving
[15:50] mfa298 (~mfa298@gateway.yapd.net) joined #highaltitude.
[15:51] mfa298 (~mfa298@gateway.yapd.net) left irc: Client Quit
[15:51] mfa298 (~mfa298@gateway.yapd.net) joined #highaltitude.
[15:52] infaddict (~infaddict@90.210.88.136) joined #highaltitude.
[15:56] mfa298 (~mfa298@gateway.yapd.net) left irc: Client Quit
[15:56] mfa298 (~mfa298@gateway.yapd.net) joined #highaltitude.
[16:00] mfa298_ (~mfa298@krikkit.yapd.net) joined #highaltitude.
[16:01] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) left irc: Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz&
[16:06] Crash-1 (~Crash-1@104.131.48.176) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[16:08] Crash-1 (~Crash-1@104.131.48.176) joined #highaltitude.
[16:09] scrapit85 (~scrapit85@87.114.213.142) left irc:
[16:10] NormanOK (6bcf2b74@gateway/web/freenode/ip.107.207.43.116) joined #highaltitude.
[16:25] mfa298 (~mfa298@gateway.yapd.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[16:25] mfa298 (~mfa298@gateway.yapd.net) joined #highaltitude.
[16:27] Crash-1 (~Crash-1@104.131.48.176) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[16:34] Crash-1 (~Crash-1@104.131.48.176) joined #highaltitude.
[16:36] mikestir (~quassel@cpc10-brmb8-2-0-cust107.1-3.cable.virginm.net) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[16:41] ejcweb (~ejcweb@77-56-55-173.dclient.hispeed.ch) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[16:42] <tweetBot> @SUSpaceflight: All ready to go, compact stills + video payload for once #ukhas http://t.co/F8aiHGCk5Q
[16:43] Stefan_____ (82589bb4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.88.155.180) joined #highaltitude.
[16:45] <craag> Launch tomorrow :D
[16:45] <lz1dev> !flights
[16:45] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Current flights: 0327.99 50.62 70.23 144.67 RTTY300bd7n2 10(c87f), 030x06 - Pico Flight 10(3ed8)
[16:46] <infaddict> nice craag
[16:46] <infaddict> wheres the electronics?!
[16:46] <craag> 2 separate tracker pods. (SUSF, FSUS)
[16:47] <mattbrejza> no trackers in the caera payload, leads to prolems
[16:47] <craag> Currently outside in the back of my car :)
[16:47] <infaddict> ah right
[16:49] <Stefan_____> Hello, everybody :). I have a uni project to launch a weather balloon and get some readings from the atmosphere. However, I stumbled across some difficulties with the calculations. We have a 500g mass budget including the balloon, 2m limit in every direction for the whole system and 3.75 m/s ascent rate. Is there a way to calculate the burst diameter and altitude of a 100g balloon carrying a 400g payload? Thanks!
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> Stefan_____: where are you?
[16:50] <Stefan_____> England
[16:50] <Stefan_____> Manchester
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> http://habhub.org/
[16:50] <mfa298> if only a team of people running a Hab Hub had some sort of calculator, a bit like http://habhub.org/calc/
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> http://habhub.org/calc/
[16:51] <SpeedEvil> specifically
[16:52] <Stefan_____> Yeah I've seen and used this. Is there a way to calculate the diameter of the balloon at 7000m. We are going to release it at that altitude?
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> http://habhub.org/calc/ gives you the diameter, if you click 'advanced' - but the burst diameter for a 100g hwoyee balloon is 7m or so
[16:53] <craag> 100g hwoyee burst diameter is more like 2.2m
[16:53] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> wait
[16:53] <Stefan_____> yeah it's not 7m that's why i dont like this calculator. i was asking for a more engineering solution to the problem
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> that souns way too high
[16:54] <craag> To calculate the diameter of the balloon at 7km, you'll need to look at the air pressure up there.
[16:54] <craag> compared to the volume you're filling
[16:54] <infaddict> guys what is "normal" PCB thickness for HAB stuff? 1.6mm?
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> infaddict: that is normal PCB thickness, yes
[16:54] <craag> infaddict: 0.8mm is fine for small boards.
[16:55] <infaddict> ok thx SpeedEvil and craag. my board is currency 65mm x 67mm.
[16:55] <infaddict> could make it a bit smaller but don't want things too tight.
[16:55] <craag> That's a small board :)
[16:55] <infaddict> yep! so 0.8mm would be fine i guess
[16:55] <SpeedEvil> Ah
[16:56] <SpeedEvil> Burst diameter is an input, not an output, which explains things
[16:56] DL7AD (~quassel@p4FD40055.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[16:56] <infaddict> debating whether i need mounting holes in the corners or whether to just glue it to the rigid foam in my payload box. Clearly need sommick to stop it bouncing upwards.
[16:56] <SpeedEvil> If you enter a 1.8m diameter (with payload right up against the balloon, and a 400g payload, you get a burst of 7000m or so
[16:57] <SpeedEvil> From memory, the hwoyee are specified to burst at 1.8
[16:57] DL7AD (~quassel@p4FD40055.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #highaltitude.
[16:57] <craag> 2.2m
[16:57] <craag> Why are you entering a burst diameter?
[16:57] <craag> They're automatically filled in..
[16:57] <SpeedEvil> It automatically filled in 7.6 for me
[16:58] <SpeedEvil> Maybe i was doing something wrong
[16:58] <Stefan_____> no you weren't its like this for everybody
[16:58] <mfa298> unless you're doing something special and know what you're doing it's probably best to leave the Advanced Constants alone
[16:58] <craag> The Advanced constraints don't fill in automatically.
[16:58] <lz1dev> ^
[16:59] <craag> It'll load the burst diameter when you select the balloon.
[16:59] <craag> I believe the data is 2.0m, although they tend to go towards 2.2 or so.
[17:00] <craag> But it loads it internally - doesn't fill in the box.
[17:00] <lz1dev> https://github.com/ukhas/cusf-burst-calc/blob/eb9929e2c34b9cd049ac7c281e0fbc177d222250/js/calc.js#L145-L186
[17:00] <mfa298> for some idea of burst diameters http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html
[17:00] <mfa298> which says Hwoyee 100g >=2m
[17:01] <mfa298> pawan 100g is >=1.6m so might be ok (as long as it's not a special one that goes to 2m, and your payload is very close to the balloon
[17:01] <Stefan_____> Has anybody here used the 100g Hwoyee and if yes did you have a payload? The manufacturer told me that the pilot balloons are not designed to carry payload.
[17:02] <craag> Yes
[17:02] <craag> It carried 350g for me.
[17:02] <Stefan_____> sweet
[17:02] <Stefan_____> what altitude
[17:02] <lz1dev> 5meters ;P
[17:02] <craag> Don't know - had a tracker failure due to a battery mixup :/
[17:03] <Stefan_____> ok cheers
[17:03] <mfa298> Stefan_____: that calc (if you've not played with the constants should give you an idea of how high a given balloon will go with a given payload weight
[17:03] <craag> That burst calculator is the most accurate I've come across though
[17:03] <craag> (from other, more successful, flights)
[17:04] <Stefan_____> Also how can i calculate the lift generated by the balloon at 7000m. im getting that the lift generated at that altitude is bigger than the lift generated at launch
[17:04] <craag> No, it'll be the same.
[17:04] <mfa298> however 100g Hwoyee and the 2m rule probably don't go together safely (Burst diameter of >=2.0m suggests your whole system will go over the 2m limit)
[17:05] <Stefan_____> yeah we are using a servo to release the balloon at 7000m
[17:05] <Stefan_____> thats why i need to know the diameter of the balloon at 7000m and also the lift generated
[17:05] <craag> err right, how is that going to help?
[17:05] <craag> lift will the same as measured on the ground (and as calculated by the burst calculator)
[17:06] <craag> diameter on the balloon can be derived from volume on the ground * (pressure on the ground / pressure at 7km)
[17:06] <Stefan_____> cheeers craag
[17:09] <mfa298> there's also a calculator at the bottom of the randomsolution pages I linked above (the best place to get your balloons)
[17:09] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) left irc: Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz&
[17:10] <Stefan_____> thanks mfa
[17:10] <mfa298> it's probably doing the same maths though as the habhub one
[17:11] <Stefan_____> do you guys know if a 50g balloon can carry the same payload (400g) to at least 7000m staying less than 2m diameter ?
[17:12] <mfa298> also dont forget that the balloon diameter at 7km will be somewhat dependant on the volume of gas and how accurately you can measure it.
[17:12] <mfa298> it might be safer to go for a larger balloon and get permission or go for a lighter payload weight
[17:12] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) joined #highaltitude.
[17:13] <mfa298> also try the calc for the pawan 100g, that might help answer your 50g balloon question
[17:13] <infaddict> i need to trim off some excess PCB (part that isnt being used and is in the way). its a straight line cut of about 3cm. whats best to do it with? junior hacksaw? or score and snap?
[17:14] jededu (~quassel@host213-122-104-212.range213-122.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[17:16] edmoore (~ed@host86-158-21-53.range86-158.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
[17:17] <craag> Either'll work.
[17:17] <infaddict> ok thx craag!
[17:19] <SpeedEvil> Score and snap - leaving at least half a cm margin
[17:25] Stefan_____ (82589bb4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.88.155.180) left irc: Ping timeout: 246 seconds
[17:32] Steffanx (~steffanx@unaffiliated/steffanx) joined #highaltitude.
[17:32] <fxmulder_> anyone have a good setup for charging a battery off of solar cells?
[17:36] Stefan_____ (82589bb4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.88.155.180) joined #highaltitude.
[17:38] jcoxon (~jcoxon@87.114.171.19) joined #highaltitude.
[17:39] Stefan93 (82589bb4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.88.155.180) joined #highaltitude.
[17:40] es5nhc (~tarmo@108-40-71-217.static.internet.emt.ee) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[17:40] Stefan_____ (82589bb4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.88.155.180) left irc: Ping timeout: 246 seconds
[17:41] Stefan93_ (82589bb4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.88.155.180) joined #highaltitude.
[17:43] <fxmulder_> I'm leaning towards a boost converter because if I try to cut these cells I'm going to need a bunch in series to get up to the battery voltage + regulator dropout, and even then I'll need close to maximum sunlight for that to work
[17:44] <craag> single solar cells (0.7v?)
[17:44] Stefan93 (82589bb4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.88.155.180) left irc: Ping timeout: 246 seconds
[17:44] <craag> and what battery? lipo?
[17:45] infaddict (~infaddict@90.210.88.136) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[17:46] Crash-1 (~Crash-1@104.131.48.176) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[17:46] Stefan93_ (82589bb4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.88.155.180) left irc: Ping timeout: 246 seconds
[17:47] <SpeedEvil> fxmulder_: voltage of a solar panel at 90% load is about 85%
[17:47] <SpeedEvil> err
[17:47] <SpeedEvil> 10% current
[17:47] <SpeedEvil> voltage at 10% current is about 85% nominal
[17:47] Crash-1 (~Crash-1@104.131.48.176) joined #highaltitude.
[17:47] <SpeedEvil> So it can be reasonable to simply use enough in series to beat your battery by a bit, and use a shunt reg
[17:49] <fxmulder_> SpeedEvil: what about on a cloudy day?
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> By that I mean the maximum power point at 10% output - not if you only draw 10% of the power when it can do 100%
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> Boost converters have to be properly designed for solar - or you will get the converter latching the solar panel to ~0V
[17:52] <fxmulder_> gotcha
[17:52] <SpeedEvil> Trying to boost to output voltage, but not managing a the cell is not a constant power, but a constant current device
[17:52] <SpeedEvil> as the cell
[17:52] <fxmulder_> I also heard they're noisy which is of convern
[18:03] <malgar> someone of you will launch a balloon during the eclipse?
[18:04] <fxmulder_> the limn batteries I'm looking at will charge between 2.8 and 3.2v so these cells being 0.5v each I can probably get away with cutting them into 3 and using two of them
[18:05] <fxmulder_> although charge current on these batteries is pretty low I may need different batteries
[18:08] Hix (~Hix@97e05725.skybroadband.com) left irc: Quit: Hix
[18:10] <Geoff-G8DHE> mattbrejza, Your annoucment for the LoRa based flights tomorrow is that sufficent info
[18:10] <Geoff-G8DHE> to set up the LoRa modes ?
[18:11] <Geoff-G8DHE> Not having used it yet I was expecting to see either just a Mode number or SF,Bandwidth and Implicit and coding factors ?
[18:16] onnar (540dffe6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.255.230) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[18:17] <Vaizki> lora receiving pretty much requires a lora chip
[18:17] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yup I have one of the boards all set up and ready to go on the RPi
[18:18] <Geoff-G8DHE> just that there hasn't been a flight using one since I got it so no chance to test it out!
[18:18] <Vaizki> ah
[18:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> daveake, code allows both a Mode operation where all the parameters are set by a single number or
[18:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> by setting them indicually but they don't all seem to be specified, but there is an extra implicit mode
[18:20] <Geoff-G8DHE> where I think it send the info required in the actual transmission which might be the answer as well!
[18:20] alxwntr (~alxwntr@cpc68289-cdif17-2-0-cust388.5-1.cable.virginm.net) joined #highaltitude.
[18:23] malgar (~malgar@adsl-ull-239-53.49-151.net24.it) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[18:23] <Geoff-G8DHE> I'm hoping that its the latter mode as the flight tomorrow uses three different settings, on the fly it seems ..
[18:24] <Geoff-G8DHE> ping daveake
[18:36] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03HABUni - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HABUni
[18:43] Kent_HAB (6d93cc7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.147.204.122) joined #highaltitude.
[18:46] ejcweb (~ejcweb@77-56-55-173.dclient.hispeed.ch) joined #highaltitude.
[18:48] <Kent_HAB> Could someone approve my flight document for Kent_HAB1
[18:49] <Geoff-G8DHE> Usually ask in #habhub and giving the flight doc number
[18:49] <Kent_HAB> okay thanks geoff :)
[18:49] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) left irc: Quit: Ex-Chat
[18:50] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) joined #highaltitude.
[18:50] ejcweb (~ejcweb@77-56-55-173.dclient.hispeed.ch) left irc: Ping timeout: 244 seconds
[18:55] <Kent_HAB> Is there a useful guide on tying the tether to the payload?
[18:58] <mattbrejza> Geoff-G8DHE: its explicit header mode, so you dont need length, coding etc
[18:58] <mattbrejza> and yea it sends lots of different modes (6 total) so i can test
[19:01] Kent_HAB1 (6d93cc7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.147.204.122) joined #highaltitude.
[19:02] Kent_HAB (6d93cc7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.147.204.122) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[19:02] Kent_HAB1 (6d93cc7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.147.204.122) left irc: Client Quit
[19:05] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PhilSUSF_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PhilSUSF_chase
[19:12] <Geoff-G8DHE> mattbrejza, OK so just the bandwidth and SF but you seem to specify several different ones so presuambly we can only copy one stream per Rx
[19:18] <mattbrejza> yea unfortinetly
[19:18] <mattbrejza> some of them are quite quick anyway, the >20khz ones are <10% DC between them
[19:21] alxwntr (~alxwntr@cpc68289-cdif17-2-0-cust388.5-1.cable.virginm.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 246 seconds
[19:22] jededu (~quassel@host213-122-104-212.range213-122.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[19:22] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[19:26] Lunar_Lander (~kevin@p54888304.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #highaltitude.
[19:26] Guest90 (~textual@cpc10-cosh13-2-0-cust947.6-1.cable.virginm.net) joined #highaltitude.
[19:34] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) left irc: Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz&
[19:35] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[19:39] nlincs1 (5772d58e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.114.213.142) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[19:43] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) left irc: Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz&
[19:45] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[19:55] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) left irc: Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz&
[19:56] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[19:58] malgar (~malgar@adsl-ull-141-15.49-151.net24.it) joined #highaltitude.
[20:05] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) left irc: Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz&
[20:07] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[20:09] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) left irc: Client Quit
[20:10] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
[20:11] mattltm (~mattltm@viking.pengimo.com) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[20:12] malclocke (~malc@121.99.231.192) joined #highaltitude.
[20:12] <Babs_> evening - so i run an autorouter (yes, i know i know...) and it says it is 100% done, then when i click on evaulate and hit ratsnest (to fill the ground plane back in) it says it still has 1 airwire. Only problem is i can't see it anywhere. I turn off all of the layers bar the unrouted one, and still i can't see it. is there anyway to highlight the airwire/is this likely to be a false result?
[20:12] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[20:12] mattltm (~mattltm@viking.pengimo.com) joined #highaltitude.
[20:13] Guest90 (~textual@cpc10-cosh13-2-0-cust947.6-1.cable.virginm.net) left irc: Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz&
[20:14] ejcweb (~ejcweb@77-56-55-173.dclient.hispeed.ch) joined #highaltitude.
[20:15] <Upu> link the files Babs_
[20:16] chrisstubbs (~chrisstub@host109-147-200-70.range109-147.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[20:21] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) left irc: Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz&
[20:21] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[20:25] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03HYDEST001 after 0314 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=HYDEST001
[20:35] guido_ (~guido@s5596f950.adsl.online.nl) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[20:36] Crash-1 (~Crash-1@104.131.48.176) left irc: Ping timeout: 255 seconds
[20:38] Crash-1 (~Crash-1@104.131.48.176) joined #highaltitude.
[20:44] SiC (Simon@cpc12-aztw24-2-0-cust193.aztw.cable.virginm.net) joined #highaltitude.
[20:48] Crash-1 (~Crash-1@104.131.48.176) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[20:50] <Vaizki> ok I'm really happy we have (dl-)fldigi..
[20:50] <Vaizki> but having just compiled it and trying to change a few things in the code.. :O
[20:50] <Vaizki> it's definitely not the prettiest
[20:53] Crash-1 (~Crash-1@104.131.48.176) joined #highaltitude.
[20:54] <mfa298> Vaizki: it can cause a lot of pain but currently it's the best we've got
[20:54] <craag> You're welcome to write us a better one ;)
[20:54] <Vaizki> as said, I'm really happy we have it :)
[20:55] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) left irc: Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz&
[20:56] nigelp (56af5cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.175.92.252) joined #highaltitude.
[20:58] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[20:59] HB9RSU (~BrunoB@92-32-149-5.dyn.cable.fcom.ch) left irc: Ping timeout: 246 seconds
[20:59] HB9RSU (~BrunoB@92-32-149-5.dyn.cable.fcom.ch) joined #highaltitude.
[21:00] Guest90 (~textual@cpc10-cosh13-2-0-cust947.6-1.cable.virginm.net) joined #highaltitude.
[21:00] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[21:01] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[21:08] Guest90 (textual@cpc10-cosh13-2-0-cust947.6-1.cable.virginm.net) left #highaltitude ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com").
[21:16] EwanP (~yaaic@cm-84.210.25.93.getinternet.no) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[21:27] maounis (~textual@athedsl-4486861.home.otenet.gr) left irc: Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz&
[21:28] gb73dx (~gb73d@81-178-181-118.dsl.pipex.com) left irc:
[21:42] <Vaizki> // supress <CR><CR> and <LF><LF> sequences
[21:42] <Vaizki> // these were observed during the RTTY contest 2/9/2013
[21:43] <Vaizki> mmm.. just in case you ever wonder, fldigi discards repeated CR and LF characters by design :)
[21:45] <lz1dev> thats good, otherwise someone naughty can spam new lines :)
[21:45] polymorf (~polymorf@AToulouse-651-1-43-250.w90-30.abo.wanadoo.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[21:45] number10 (5689cd14@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.137.205.20) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[21:46] <Vaizki> indeed
[21:47] Nick change: craag -> PhilSUSF
[21:48] jcoxon (~jcoxon@87.114.171.19) left irc: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
[21:53] <Ian_> Ha ha, The correct alignment functions used by the military when using RTTY was <CR><CR><LF> to allow the printer platen to return to the left margin. /
[21:54] <Vaizki> well that will then show up only as <CR><LF> on fldigi :)
[21:54] <Vaizki> bool bit_buf[MAXBITS];
[21:54] <Vaizki> that's a pretty innovative way to define a big array of bits
[21:55] <Ian_> I remember that a NATO tactical message switch, which had recently been updated stripped out all alignment functions and of course when they appeared at a Tape Relay Station as FLASH traffic (fortunately exercise) it wasn't of any use to man nor beast
[21:55] <Ian_> Just thought that the historical amusement might be just that - amusing!
[21:55] <Vaizki> not to mention how they are cleared.. for (int i = 0; i < MAXBITS; i++ ) bit_buf[i] = 0.0;
[21:57] <bertrik> so, setting a bool to false by writing it with floating point 0
[21:57] <Vaizki> yes
[22:02] <Vaizki> apparently it works
[22:13] <PhilSUSF> I would expect the compiler to catch that
[22:15] talsit_roam (uid30008@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ppvtghdprwoqqikr) joined #highaltitude.
[22:17] <Vaizki> also the RTTY decoder in fldigi requires a mark tone before the first character in a sentence or it will never catch it
[22:17] <Vaizki> at least half a bit ;)
[22:21] <Vaizki> and in general the decoder looks very much like it really really likes a continuous signal, if you stop transmitting for even a small while there's some noise floor detection code etc which looks like it's going to take 10-64 bits worth of data to stabilize
[22:21] <Vaizki> I am mainly reading the code to understand why things are done in a certain way..
[22:22] ejcweb_ (~ejcweb@74.125.122.49) joined #highaltitude.
[22:23] ejcweb (~ejcweb@77-56-55-173.dclient.hispeed.ch) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[22:26] ejcweb (~ejcweb@77-56-55-173.dclient.hispeed.ch) joined #highaltitude.
[22:27] ejcweb_ (~ejcweb@74.125.122.49) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[22:32] <Vaizki> also PhilSUSF, the compiler doesn't even warn about that assignment.. didn't check compiler flags though
[22:35] <adamgreig> -Wnone :P
[22:37] <lz1dev> -Wshhhh
[22:38] <Oddstr13> http://www.instructables.com/id/The-Ultimate-FM-Transmitter/?ALLSTEPS
[22:39] <Oddstr13> Is that an actual FM transmitter? I was under the impression that FM was quite more complicated to do than a few transistors and passive components
[22:41] edmoore (~ed@82.6.148.64) joined #highaltitude.
[22:45] <adamgreig> it can be that simple
[22:45] <adamgreig> you just need something that resonates (like a coil and a capactor, an LC tank)
[22:45] <adamgreig> and some way to change its resonant frequency (like by changing the L or the C)
[22:45] <Oddstr13> hm.. ok
[22:46] <Oddstr13> that circuit uses a simple air-core coil and a trim pot
[22:46] <Ian_> Standard practice would be to FM the oscillator using a varicap diode
[22:46] <Oddstr13> varicap diode?
[22:47] <Ian_> Variable capacitance diode. Cheap way is to use a 1N4001 diode reversed biased - it's the size of the depletion layer that provides the variable capacitance.
[22:48] <Oddstr13> hm..
[22:48] <Ian_> The C is decreased as the diode is reverse biased
[22:49] <Oddstr13> so, rectifier diode
[22:49] <Oddstr13> those I have.
[22:50] <Ian_> They are much cheaper than a varicap diode but obviously the depletion layer is not as tightly controlled so good for individual equipments but not a production run.
[22:51] <Ian_> [22:17] <Vaizki> at least half a bit ;) I think approx one character length just in case the TTY receiver has just been tripped.
[22:51] <Vaizki> yea
[22:53] <Ian_> :) that saves a potential disappointment
[22:53] <Ian_> http://streampowers.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/vfo-circuit-diagram-with-varicap.html
[22:55] <Oddstr13> L1 is an aircore inductor?
[22:55] <Ian_> Very effective but probably not particularly refined for good frequency control. In the past the way to get VHF FM was to use a low frequency oscillator and FM it then multiply it up to the working frequency, this multiplying also the deviation.
[22:56] <Ian_> A technique that is now somewhat dated.
[22:56] <Ian_> L1 could be aircored or could be a torroid these days.
[22:56] <Oddstr13> but the symbol on that diagram indicates aircore, right?
[22:57] <Ian_> I'm talking principles, not specifics. . . . These days, getting a lot of Tokyo coils is difficult and so torroids are used instead. Time has marched on.
[22:58] <Ian_> Back in the day ferrite coils were not as readily available as they are today.
[22:59] <Oddstr13> sure, I was just wondering what exactly the meaning of the symbol was
[22:59] <Ian_> Temperature sensitivity would likely be dramatic.
[23:00] <Oddstr13> I'm not expecting a simple circuit like this to operate well on the rf spectrum
[23:00] <Oddstr13> I just stummbled uppon that circuit on instructables, and was puzzled by it's simplicity
[23:01] <Ian_> Looking at it (I hadn't before . . . ) it's an RC tuned oscillator and so very low frequency. The circuit demonstrates the technique, it doesn't warrant that it is good for any particular purpose.
[23:02] <Oddstr13> the VFO you linked? yea, I noticed it was for low frequency
[23:02] <Ian_> In fact I will find a better LC oscillator to demonstrate the technique. One of the Fundamental or Intermediate RSGB training manuals almost certainly shows the technique
[23:04] <Ian_> Here is a better implementation, but again merely an example. The use of two diodes back to back means there is no DC short, but halves the capacitance available
[23:04] <Ian_> http://my.integritynet.com.au/purdic/voltage-controlled-oscillators.htm
[23:05] <Ian_> The technique is valid as the voltage controlled oscillator as part of a phase locked loop arrangement.
[23:05] Lunar_Lander (~kevin@p54888304.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) left irc: Quit: Verlassend
[23:07] <Ian_> Of course the circuit would be translated to use available devices, so the fact that a particular FET is specified shouldn't be an impediment, it may not be manufactured any more, but the principles are good.
[23:08] <Ian_> The difference between an air cored transformer and a torroidal transformer, in a nutshell:
[23:09] LazyLeopard (~irc-clien@chocky.demon.co.uk) left irc: Quit: Now QRT
[23:09] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[23:10] <Ian_> A specified air cored transformer may or may not be currently available or manufactured any more and can have x and a half turns upon it. The frequency can be trimmed by inserting something other than air as the core.
[23:11] <Oddstr13> cool
[23:12] <Ian_> A torroidal transformer can only have complete turns and each turn adds the same amount of indictance so can be looked up on a table, but size and ferrite material are important. The field of a torroid is tight,
[23:13] <Ian_> All good stuff, but fairly minor in the HAB world. It might still come in useful, but isn't something to major in at the moment for sure or you will miss the bigger picture. :)
[23:13] <Vaizki> Ian_: and just to clarify, I just leave a stop bit "hanging" so I'm tranmitting mark all the time between sentences
[23:14] <Ian_> No you aren't you are just setting the idle mark condition . . . SEMANTICS :) Now I know what you mean though.
[23:14] <Ian_> Now//Know
[23:15] <Ian_> Cancel my last I got it right the first time !
[23:15] <Vaizki> yes well my interest in fldigi goes beyond hab so took the time to see how it's buil
[23:15] <Vaizki> BUILT
[23:15] <Vaizki> I didn't
[23:16] <Vaizki> and apparently dl-fldigi downsamples input audio to 8khZ
[23:17] <Ian_> I understand that the fldigi code is a bit cludgy and difficult to work with. Probably a case of bolt on bits or lots of maintainers that have all added their own style to the mix.
[23:17] <Ian_> I wish that I was brave or smart enough to get to grips with it. But sadly, I'm not.
[23:18] <Ian_> I take it from your recent trip and from what I have read here, that you work with signal processing at some level. Coming from Finland I could even suggest Nokia . . .
[23:22] <Vaizki> kHz even.. so at 1200bps you are only going to have ~6 samples per symbol to work with which is halved when detecting start bits.. so you have 3 samples only being looked at there. quite down to the wire.
[23:23] <Vaizki> also it allows max 6 errant samples in a half-symbol which means at 1200 and 600bps it will accept any signal as valid :P
[23:23] <Vaizki> and no, I don't work for nokia and I have never done any signal processing before :)
[23:23] <Vaizki> that's why it's so interesting :)
[23:23] <Vaizki> and yes this is quite cludgy
[23:26] gonzo_nb (~gonzo@host-92-14-209-118.as43234.net) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[23:26] RocketBoy (~steverand@05464950.skybroadband.com) left irc: Quit: RocketBoy
[23:33] chrisstubbs (~chrisstub@host109-147-200-70.range109-147.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[23:35] edmoore (~ed@82.6.148.64) left irc: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
[23:37] <Ian_> Very interesting. If my memory servies me correctly the famous 8250 UART chip had a clock that sampled receive data at sixteen times the baud rate to determine where the middle of the received bits should be.
[23:38] RocketBoy (~steverand@05464950.skybroadband.com) joined #highaltitude.
[23:38] <Ian_> So that would be 8kHz for a 50 Baud signal and that was assuming a probably good square signal to begin with.
[23:38] <Vaizki> well this is my initial take on surfing through the code
[23:39] <Vaizki> it is 8kHz for everything
[23:39] <Ian_> No wonder that it craps out beyond 600(?) Baud
[23:39] <Vaizki> yea
[23:40] <Vaizki> include/rtty.h:#define RTTY_SampleRate 8000
[23:40] <Ian_> Not that a typical comms receiver bandwidth would be much use beyond that as well, so probably a good decision?
[23:41] <Vaizki> well I would have used whatever I get :)
[23:41] <Vaizki> I am quickly checking if it's possible to bump that up to 16kHz at least
[23:43] <Ian_> Given the processor speeds when fldigi was first written, then I'm sure that if you were for example feeding the program from an audio source other than a receiver, where there was not necessarily any audio /
[23:43] <Ian_> bandwidth limitations, then I guess that it should be quite possible.
[23:43] <Ian_> In theory at least.
[23:43] <Vaizki> yea another limitation on dl-fldigi is the max 4kHz on badnwdith it can process
[23:44] <Vaizki> and look for RSID for example
[23:44] <Vaizki> that 4kHz limitation is hardcoded DEEP
[23:44] <Vaizki> not even going to try changing it
[23:45] <Ian_> By deep you don't mean not parameterised by using a global variable, but repeated in various modules, probably with different variable names . . . Hmmm :)
[23:46] <Vaizki> not even variables, just written out as 4000 in various places
[23:46] <Vaizki> and some precalculated magic numbers that include a 4000 somewhere along the line :)
[23:47] <Vaizki> but I got myself an 800 pixel high waterfall which was a one-line change...
[23:47] <Ian_> Obfuscated !
[23:48] <Ian_> I have always been fascinated by DSP, but never known where to even start.
[23:48] <Vaizki> well I'm starting with SDR & fldigi
[23:48] <Vaizki> probably not the best place...
[23:48] <Vaizki> symbollen = (int) (samplerate / rtty_baud + 0.5);
[23:48] <Vaizki> so there's the magic number.. and samplerate = 8000
[23:49] <Ian_> Soundcard always seemed to be a black art. Given the end points some of the theory makes sense. I will read of your progress with interest, but I'm a bit of a lightweight :)
[23:50] <Ian_> My background was as a telegraphist and I got interested in RTTY back in the day, but am also fascinated by some of the more modern modes. Not tried them in anger yet though.
[23:50] <Vaizki> so for 1200baud we get a symbollen of 7 samples
[23:51] <Vaizki> which is actually also not very accurate because 8000/1200 = 6.66666...
[23:52] <Vaizki> so that's a 5% error right there
[23:52] <Vaizki> in terms of timing
[23:52] <Ian_> The 8250 I think used to use more than one sample to validate a symbol, but a lot of software takes one sample in the middle of an assumed symbol and makes a decision, particularly where it is done in software, which is why the 8250 was always such a good chip.
[23:53] <Vaizki> oh you mean like this? return bit_buf[symbollen / 2];
[23:53] <Vaizki> :D
[23:53] SiC (Simon@cpc12-aztw24-2-0-cust193.aztw.cable.virginm.net) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[23:54] <Vaizki> yes, fldigi only looks at the middle sample from what it assumes is a symbol
[23:54] <Ian_> I think that you have covered a fair bit of technical ground in the last 45 days.
[23:54] bertrik (~quassel@rockbox/developer/bertrik) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[23:54] RocketBoy (~steverand@05464950.skybroadband.com) left irc: Quit: http://randomaerospace.com/
[23:55] <Vaizki> the only place where fldigi looks at more samples is when it's looking for the start bit
[23:55] <Ian_> I can understand the logic behind that.
[23:55] malgar (~malgar@adsl-ull-141-15.49-151.net24.it) left irc: Quit: Sto andando via
[23:55] <Ian_> decision
[23:55] <Vaizki> and even there it is a flaky implementation
[23:55] <Ian_> Ha
[23:56] <Ian_> It was a lot better than what was there before it . . . nothing!
[23:57] <Vaizki> it basically trusts that the detection code whether a sample is a 0 or 1 works 100% of the time
[00:00] --- Mon Mar 16 2015