highaltitude.log.20150309

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[02:08] <Bob_Saget> Does anyone know a place that will make some custom silver foil balloons? Just looking for something a tad bit bigger than the 36 inch qualatex
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[04:14] <Bob_Saget> man I wish somebody would write a simple program to track HAB balloons using an SDR dongle
[04:15] <Bob_Saget> for use on a raspberry pi
[04:15] <Bob_Saget> would have a lot more trackers out there I think. I'ved tried setting up dlfigi on my RPi a few times, given up every time
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[08:52] <Vaizki> yes my battery was definitely DEAD.. well I replaced it and am going to see if the old one can be revived but I give it a 1% chance :)
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[11:32] <alxwntr> Hi all
[11:33] <alxwntr> can anyone explain what the position and time masks are for in the config UBX commands?
[11:33] <alxwntr> they are simply mentioned in the protocol doc
[11:33] <alxwntr> but don't seem to be defined anywhere
[11:33] <alxwntr> there are four variables:
[11:34] <alxwntr> pDop, tDop, pAcc and tAcc that I don't get
[11:34] <alxwntr> with other masks there are little diagrams to show what they mean
[11:35] <alxwntr> but I can't find any masks specifically for these cars
[11:35] <alxwntr> *vars
[11:36] <alxwntr> and that's 8 Bytes in total, so presumably they carry a fair bit of info...
[11:36] <alxwntr> any ideas?
[11:37] <Vaizki> I think you can use those to set the upper DOP limit for a fix to be considered valid
[11:37] <Vaizki> so if you set pDop to 1.0, then your fix is only valid if pDOP <= 1.0
[11:38] <Vaizki> check 6.3 Navigation Output Filters
[11:38] <Vaizki> in the protocol doc
[11:38] <alxwntr> ah great
[11:38] <alxwntr> thanks for that
[11:39] <alxwntr> presumably using zeros keeps default values?
[11:39] <Vaizki> which CFG message are we talking about?
[11:40] <alxwntr> CFG-NAV5
[11:40] <alxwntr> to set mode to airbourne <1g
[11:40] <Vaizki> there is a "mask" parameter
[11:41] <Vaizki> with bits for the DOPs
[11:41] <Vaizki> if you don't set the bit, it won't change the dop mask
[11:41] <fsphil> query it first, change just the mode, send it back to the module
[11:41] <alxwntr> ok thanks both
[11:41] <Vaizki> so first 2 bytes of CFG-NAV5 are the 'mask' where you need to set the bits for the parts you actually want to change
[11:42] <alxwntr> oh!
[11:42] <alxwntr> so it is
[11:42] <Vaizki> I think you are only setting the 'dyn' bit there
[11:42] <alxwntr> that's useful
[11:42] <fsphil> that's probably a better way
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[11:43] <Vaizki> I don't even know how the DOP is really represented
[11:43] <Vaizki> there are no units for pDop for example
[11:43] <Vaizki> so probably it isn't meters but some weird unit of accuracyness :)
[11:43] <alxwntr> hmm in the uBlox7, the mask has bits for app, ppp, wknRoll, initial3dfx, minCno and minMax
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> It's dilution of position
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> it's arbitrary
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> it's precision compared to precision in good geometry
[11:44] <Vaizki> I know what the acronym for
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> so it's a ratio, unitless
[11:44] <Vaizki> ok so what does a DOP of 2.6 mean?
[11:45] <SpeedEvil> 2.6 times worse than with good geometry - as I understand it
[11:45] <Vaizki> ok so it never makes sense to set a DOP mask under 1?
[11:45] <Vaizki> and 1 would require a perfect solution
[11:45] <Vaizki> which would not be a great idea in the real world anyway
[11:46] <alxwntr> oops, forget that last thing
[11:46] <alxwntr> wrong section
[11:46] <alxwntr> sorry
[11:46] <Vaizki> ah the default values for pDop and tDop are 25
[11:48] <alxwntr> so, the 'good geometry' solution has a specified +/- accuracy
[11:48] <alxwntr> and the DOP is the multiple of this for a real solution?
[11:49] <Vaizki> thttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilution_of_precision_%28GPS%29#Meaning_of_DOP_Values
[11:49] <Vaizki> oops
[11:49] <Vaizki> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilution_of_precision_%28GPS%29#Meaning_of_DOP_Values
[11:49] <Vaizki> easier to click
[11:49] <Vaizki> anyway, there's all the math and a nice table to see what it means in real life :)
[11:50] <Vaizki> so basically the default mode of the ublox with pDop = 25 is to declare a fix valid when it has even the slightest idea of position ;)
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> yeah - which may be what you want for balloons
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> as long at least as you broadcast the DOP
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> (well, on the ground)
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> You want any position you can get - as long as it also shows the uncertainty
[11:53] <alxwntr> nice
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[11:53] <alxwntr> I'm feeling matrically inadequate looking at that...
[11:54] <alxwntr> but I'm sure it all makes sense
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[11:55] <Vaizki> does anyone use the static hold... not sure I understand it 100ยค
[11:55] <Vaizki> it is basically saying it will send out a constant position to filter out wandering of the position due to environmental factors
[11:56] <SpeedEvil> tatic hold in terms of GPS may be 'output the same position till you're sure you've moved'
[11:56] <SpeedEvil> yes
[11:56] <Vaizki> but I'd think it tries to refine the location still
[11:56] <Vaizki> so does it just keep the last position it had before movement stopped?
[11:56] <Vaizki> or does it keep trying to see if it can make it better?
[11:56] <SpeedEvil> I think it'll stick at one position, until it can justify moving it
[11:57] <SpeedEvil> Rather than assume it's static, and treat it as an averaging issue
[11:57] <Vaizki> right.. so not much help from that
[11:57] <SpeedEvil> Averaging may not actually help to improve positioning in all cases.
[11:57] <SpeedEvil> In some cases, - constrained horizons and strong multipath - you can get active errors that are not resolved by averaging
[11:57] <Vaizki> yea I'd rather have a cloud of possible locations to look for the payload than a dumbed down average of where it's not going to be
[11:58] <Vaizki> I can average visually myself if needed :)
[11:59] <SpeedEvil> For example, if you're standing 5m from a 20m high building with another 20m tall building across the street - there will tend to be a satellite behind the building you're standing behind, reflecting off the building across the street
[11:59] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[12:00] <SpeedEvil> this means you 'see' extra path-length to that building, and are 'pushed' away from it.
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[12:12] <db_g6gzh> I've seen that on my satnav once while driving down a valley, it plotted a parallel path several 100m away from actual due to reflection from the far side
[12:12] Nick change: db_g6gzh -> dbrooke
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[14:16] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DL5ARG-9_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DL5ARG-9_chase
[14:25] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DC2EH-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DC2EH-11
[14:34] <gonzo_> on older rx's we used to often see them confused by reflections. When they could only follow so many signals, I assume the reflections would appear as new sats on a different time delay
[14:34] <gonzo_> so you could see good sky, but still get no lock
[14:39] <Reb-SM0ULC> dbrooke: must have been old receiver and very few satellites in view?
[14:43] <gonzo_> it was one of the new 12chan ones!
[14:43] <gonzo_> I thibnk the us had only just turned of the SA. So poss a few years ago!
[14:43] <dbrooke> was a tomtom one but probably not getting many sats in the valley, I was most surprised how the error stayed constant for quite a while
[14:46] <pc1pcl> if using a map in concert with the GPS, the software might try to make some sort of correction for you,
[14:47] <pc1pcl> e.g. have you drive along a 'road' it has as much as possible.
[14:48] <pc1pcl> Seen it place me on a bycicle or parallel road due to an initial wrong position and taking quite some convincing before considering the option that perhaps I was actually on the highway.
[14:48] <dbrooke> it does for small errors but in this case drew a dotted line between its calculated position and the nearest on-road position
[14:49] <pc1pcl> Yeah, in that case you'd expect it to do a correction instead, even if you were offroading in parallel ;)
[14:50] <Reb-SM0ULC> gonzo_: few = 15 ? :)
[14:53] <Reb-SM0ULC> pc1pcl: a friend has a "dual" gps for land and boat. sometimes when going to close to shore the gps switches to "land-mode" and "attach" to nearest road. not very impressive..
[14:53] <gonzo_> seeing a few real sats, with reflections from a few more, that means that the GPS can't find enough combinations where the intersections match, poss doesn't take much to confuse a simple one
[14:55] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC9ZMJ-11 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KC9ZMJ-11
[14:55] <gonzo_> one of the gps units we were trying had the most apauling internal clock. When you dropped back to three sats, the location would start to wander off in a direction. could be a few 100mtrs out in minutes
[14:56] <daveake> that's apalling
[14:56] <gonzo_> never could spell that
[14:57] <daveake> t-h-a-t
[15:02] <gonzo_> that too
[15:04] <gonzo_> (Awaits a T-O-O.....)
[15:05] <daveake> Sorry, time for T ...
[15:10] <gonzo_> S. OK.
[15:10] <gonzo_> F.U.N.E.M.
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[15:45] <Reb-SM0ULC> gonzo_: how bad was the DOP values?
[15:53] <gonzo_> phew, I really don't remember. But the things also had a bug where it would switch to the japan elipsoid for no reason. So the location would shoot off 5oomtrs to the south west
[15:53] <gonzo_> 500
[15:53] <gonzo_> so we ditched those
[15:54] <gonzo_> I recall they also had some odd vontage on the antennas, so you were stuck with their one active antenna offering
[15:55] <gonzo_> we ended up with the jupiter12 ones. Far gbetter and those had the 10kHz output in addition ton the 1pps. Great for making GPSDO's
[15:59] <daveake> Ah yes I flew one of those on my first HAB
[16:06] <gonzo_> I started building with them, as I had plenty. But the current drain and size is a bit outdated.
[16:06] <daveake> yup
[16:06] <gonzo_> Had my eyes opened by upu's little ublox breakout boards
[16:07] <edmoore> ubloxes were a breath of fresh air
[16:07] <edmoore> the 5 was anyway
[16:07] <edmoore> i think the 4 was quite hungry for current
[16:07] <edmoore> iirc
[16:08] <gonzo_> I was gob smacked that they could get time lock from inside the building with that farty little chip ant. Serious advance on the old crape I was using
[16:08] <daveake> iirc power wasn't much different to the Lassen (but much spikier)
[16:08] <gonzo_> I forget what I first had. 6 or 7?
[16:08] <Reb-SM0ULC> gonzo_: the first phone i tired with gps had a batterytime of about 2 hours when gps was turned on.. some current...
[16:08] <daveake> It was the not having to wait 15 mins for a lock that did it
[16:09] <gonzo_> I've still had that with even the laterd ones.
[16:09] <gonzo_> slow lock.
[16:10] <gonzo_> I wonder if the pico foil was an issue. Blowing around above the payload, poss it never saw any sats long enough
[16:10] <gonzo_> learned to leave the payload in the garden to lock first, then tie on the balloon.
[16:10] <gonzo_> Though that has caught me out more thanonce, with nkt being aboue to get into the car to drive to the release site
[16:11] <Reb-SM0ULC> gonzo_: mm, how much of the sky is covered by the ballon for the pico?
[16:12] <gonzo_> probbaly most of it, but not at one time. But as the breeze blows it about it will be seeing different sats
[16:13] <mattbrejza> max7?
[16:15] <gonzo_> 6 by the looks of the one I have waiting to fly
[16:16] <gonzo_> latest I mean, latest I have brought!
[16:19] <mattbrejza> i still have a lassen as a backup tracker
[16:19] <edmoore> badger1 was a lassen
[16:19] <edmoore> it worked every time
[16:20] <mattbrejza> yea they do Just Work (providing the ground plane doesnt touch the antenna)
[16:20] <mattbrejza> almost forgot to attach it once, that also wouldnt have worked so well
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[16:31] <Laurenceb> any ubuntu gugurs here?
[16:31] <Laurenceb> *gurus
[16:32] <Laurenceb> i want to print some svg templates for cutting parts
[16:32] <Laurenceb> so i need to print with no scaling
[16:32] <Laurenceb> and idea how to do this?
[16:32] <Laurenceb> convert to pdf first perhaps?
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[16:39] <Laurenceb> ah that worked, ignore me :P
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[17:08] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PROJECT1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PROJECT1
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[17:11] <Piet0r> Hi guys
[17:12] <Piet0r> I was wondering if the U-blox 6M supports GLONASS
[17:12] <Piet0r> Does anybody here know this?
[17:17] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> http://www.u-blox.com/en/firmware/gps-modules-firmware/u-blox-6-firmware-update.html
[17:22] <mattbrejza> 'As the behavior of GLONASS signals during leap seconds change is not well defined..' lol
[17:25] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03METRONOT1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=METRONOT1
[17:29] <Upu> 6 doesn't
[17:29] <Upu> 7 does but not concurrent with GPS GNSS
[17:29] <Upu> 8 is concurrent
[17:30] <Vaizki> Is there a cheap USB GPS puck with ublox8?
[17:30] <Upu> whats it for ?
[17:32] <Vaizki> Boat stuff
[17:32] <Upu> ok
[17:32] <Upu> not aware of one
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[17:34] <Vaizki> I found some but they are close to 100 euros
[17:35] <daveake> make one
[17:35] <edmoore> yeah you could make one for less
[17:35] <Upu> link ?
[17:35] <Vaizki> Sure that's what I'm thinking
[17:35] <Vaizki> Upu, navilock was the brand
[17:36] <Vaizki> On phone here, no direct link
[17:37] <mattbrejza> http://www.navilock.de/produkte/F_505_eKabel-Empfaenger_1075_u-blox.html
[17:38] <mattbrejza> http://www.navilock.de/produkte/F_1075_u-blox_62532/merkmale.html ?
[17:38] <Vaizki> Yea that's the one
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[17:39] <mattbrejza> it is a nice waterproof case and stuff though
[17:39] <mattbrejza> not sure the usual polystrene and gaffa tape would quite work so well
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[17:40] <Vaizki> Yea I could also keep it indoors like a car dash puck. The boat is fiberglass, gps works great inside
[17:41] <Upu> well you're paying for the enclosure
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[17:44] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[17:52] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03METRONOT2 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=METRONOT2
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[18:10] <li4m0> Hi. Anybody know if the Wickes 2 cm polystyrene sheets would be ok for payload
[18:10] <li4m0> http://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-25mm-General-Purpose-Polystyrene-600x2400mm/p/210801
[18:11] <li4m0> 25 mm actually
[18:11] <daveake> horrible stuff
[18:11] <daveake> I have some for underfloor insulation in the shed
[18:11] <li4m0> Thanks Dave. As in not strong enough or makes a mess
[18:11] <daveake> which is about all it's suitable for
[18:11] <daveake> yes and yes
[18:12] <li4m0> Ok thanks. I'll go for the blue styrene, would have been easier for me to pick it up that's all
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[18:15] <li4m0> daveake have you ever used the pi camera in flight purely for video?
[18:15] <edmoore> many payloads have been made with the denser blue stuff
[18:15] <edmoore> it has a proud history
[18:16] <daveake> In before Upu) Also available in pink
[18:16] <li4m0> Yeh ill stick with the blue
[18:16] <daveake> I've use the Pi cam for brief videos only
[18:16] <li4m0> With pink tape
[18:18] <edmoore> very daring
[18:18] <li4m0> I'm trying to work out best option for video for the duration. Looks like I will have to try and pick up a 2nd hand gopro hero2
[18:18] <li4m0> With battery bacpac. Was looking at the sj4000 but battery life would be an issue
[18:21] <li4m0> At least the gopro is proven (without a case) albeit a bit expensive
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[18:22] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03EDUPICDX1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=EDUPICDX1
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[18:44] <Ayu-Dag> test
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[19:06] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PI_SKY_PLUS after 0310 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PI_SKY_PLUS
[19:08] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[19:53] <infaddict> hey guys, dumb question. with a 1/4 wave mag mount antenna, would you expect it to work at close range, like 3m from NTX2B or is that far too close?
[19:53] <infaddict> my tiny little DAB/FM type antenna is working and receiving but my proper mag mount is not
[19:54] <Geoff-G8DHE> It should work, but at any range in the same room it will probably oveload!
[19:54] <Geoff-G8DHE> Why do you say it doesn't work no signals at all ?
[19:55] <infaddict> yep zilch
[19:55] <infaddict> and its brand new
[19:55] <infaddict> i suppose it could be the BNC to MCX connector but that is brand new also
[19:55] <Geoff-G8DHE> Check continuity at the plug for the mag-mount - there shouldn't be any continuity!
[19:56] <Geoff-G8DHE> Then check between aerial in inner pin
[19:56] <Geoff-G8DHE> in/and
[19:57] <infaddict> ok grabbing DMM now Geoff-G8DHE
[20:03] <infaddict> ok no continuity from inner to outer BNC plug, which is correct
[20:04] <infaddict> when you say between "aerial" you mean the actual upright bit? i'm getting nothing from that to either centre pin or shield of BNC.
[20:04] <infaddict> not sure if its coated maybe - its black
[20:06] <Ian_> Scratch the tip or close by for good contact
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[20:12] <Geoff-G8DHE> They haven't sold you a rubber one have they ;-)
[20:15] <infaddict> lol, rather than damage my nice new antenna, i've checked the BNC to MCX and whilst i have outer to outer continuity, i cant get any inner pin to inner pin continuity
[20:15] <infaddict> no matter how i wiggle against the tiny pin
[20:15] <infaddict> so that is prime suspect!
[20:15] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah yes rather likely!
[20:15] <infaddict> so its going back in the post tomorra!
[20:16] <infaddict> ive switched to small pointy DMM probes and even with those i cant get any inner pin continuity
[20:18] <Vaizki> that's weird
[20:21] <infaddict> indeed. gonna check it a few more times to be 100% sure. hard to hold it down with 1 pair of hands so enlisting some help. then its getting returned to seller.
[20:24] <infaddict> concluded its duff and started ebay return. thanks guys.
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[20:28] <jededu> At last sorted dominoex timings :) now to launch it :)
[20:28] <Geoff-G8DHE> Sounds good!
[20:28] <Vaizki> infaddict: if you don't need the dab/dvb antenna, just strip the coax for a 1/4 wave off it?
[20:29] <Geoff-G8DHE> or extend the short existing aerial to 1/4wave for 70cms
[20:30] <Vaizki> hmm true
[20:30] <Vaizki> you should always stop and think before taking my advice
[20:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> then then stick it to an old tin lid for the earth
[20:31] <Vaizki> yea or a foil pie pan :)
[20:31] <Vaizki> well actually it won't stick..
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[20:35] <pc1pcl> You could put a coin (with nickel in it) behind the tinfoil sheet to make it all stick together
[20:36] <pc1pcl> Or a steel washer.
[20:38] <Vaizki> btw, I was wondering about making a bit better enclosure for my r820t2 stick.. if I put it in a metal hammond box, should I just ground both usb and antenna connector to it?
[20:39] <Vaizki> the MCX-SMA pigtail I have actually has an SMA with panel mounting washer & nut on it
[20:40] <Geoff-G8DHE> I don't have a problem doing it that way http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/HABAMP_and_DONGLE/
[20:40] <Vaizki> so it would be a dead easy mount on the box but will naturally connect RF ground and the box
[20:41] <pc1pcl> I'd say yes. in this case you want them all at the same ground. probably want to ground the entire thing somehow to something big though.
[20:41] <Vaizki> right
[20:41] <Vaizki> pc1pcl: it's for mobile use...
[20:42] <Vaizki> Geoff-G8DHE: how the ... did you get the habamp in there? did you desolder the SMAs?
[20:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> No I got a naked one and then put the connectors in place and slide the board in and soldered
[20:43] <Vaizki> ah ok so they came unsoldered
[20:43] <pc1pcl> Vaizki: maybe a use a kind of clamp (alligatorclip?) to ground to the chassis of the vehicle?
[20:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> Two types boxed or naked
[20:44] <Vaizki> pc1pcl: well I can get an easy ground from the cig lighter
[20:44] <Geoff-G8DHE> Youe aerial on the vehicle won't that be gounded ?
[20:44] Nick change: fl_0|afk -> fl_0
[20:44] <Geoff-G8DHE> my r's have gone!
[20:46] <infaddict> Geoff-G8DHE: i have soldered my habamp into hammond, so hopefully done the hardest part. still gotta do the dongle part.
[20:47] Nick change: fl_0 -> fl_0|afk
[20:47] <Geoff-G8DHE> on mine the dongle part is just held in place by pressure, not even a nut on the SMA input ;-)
[20:48] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=72_73&product_id=82
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[21:19] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03INFCU1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=INFCU1
[21:19] <infaddict> at last ;-)
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[21:20] <pc1pcl> infaddict: congrats!
[21:21] <infaddict> turns out my breadboard was causing some major issues. tonight i have transplanted to a diff board and its much better. s/n ratio a lot lot better.
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[21:26] <infaddict> i am rather relieved as had spent hours debugging my own code. turns out its fine. time for a beer!
[21:26] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[21:27] <pc1pcl> At least now you've got really great code... I've had good luck with bread boards sofar, but one more data point to just use real boards..
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[21:29] <infaddict> yep pc1pcl! I have a draft PCB design I'm working on so hopefully move to proper board in the next few weeks.
[21:29] <infaddict> bit nailbiting to press the button on a PCB order as I'm very new to all that stuff
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[21:29] <infaddict> cant believe i am getting 10 satellites sitting in lounge 10ft from window which has blinds and curtains drawn
[21:29] <theRealSIbot> In real units: 10 ft = 3.05 m
[21:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> Have you checked your roof recenty ? ;-)
[21:31] <infaddict> 11 now!
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[21:32] <infaddict> anyway habitat sentence working great, just voltage to test now so will power it down and connect battery
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[22:06] <infaddict> running great off batteries now. result! calling it a night chaps.
[22:08] <Reb-SM0ULC> infaddict: great work :)
[22:08] <infaddict> i'm relieved more than anything. thought something was really wrong with my soldering, code, wiring or components.
[22:08] <infaddict> dodgy breadboard was the answer
[22:09] <infaddict> sick to death of debugging and rewiring now so gonna move onto the payload box design and yagi stuff for a few days ;-)
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[22:42] <maounis> Hi, Anyone knows if Icom 7000 can be used to decode RTTY onscreen from a balloon?
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[22:44] <Ian_> I take it that you mean the built in RTTY facility. I have an IC-7000 and think the RTTY built in option is a crock.
[22:45] <maounis> Ok. So you mean is not decoding right?
[22:46] <Ian_> I'm not sure what the settings are, but wouldn't think about it other than in rapidly passing. Never taken the time to try it, but don't rate it. Look at the built in band scan option /
[22:47] <Ian_> It displays a graphic of what's close by. Notice that in doing so it chops up your receive audio . . . don't rate that either. Other than that, the IC-7000 is a good radio
[22:47] <maounis> Ok thanks a lot!
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[22:49] <Ian_> Sorry that I couldn't be more hopeful. Try four of these for tx/rx transformers in an isolated interface.
[22:50] <Ian_> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/151042257761?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=108&chn=ps&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108&ff19=0
[22:50] <Ian_> They work great at audio as a cheap source of transformer.
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[23:02] <Vaizki> Ian_: if it has only one VFO, how could it scan and display closeby frequencies without chopping up audio momentarily?
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[23:20] <Ian_> The point is that the facility is essentially useless
[23:21] <Vaizki> ok.. time to sleep&
[23:21] <Ian_> Gnite.
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[00:00] --- Tue Mar 10 2015