highaltitude.log.20150303

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[00:59] <BUE_OSJ> hi good nights!
[00:59] <BUE_OSJ> how is it going?
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[01:18] <BUE_OSJ> daveake: sorry to bother... i have a pits module. i was trying to decode the RTTY signal. do you have any documentation to do that?
[01:19] <BUE_OSJ> daveake: it ll be very useful to me
[01:25] <Ian_> He will be fast asleep by now. Best you call back around 0900 UTC
[01:26] <Ian_> Do you have a copy of DL-FLDIGI as that will decode the rtty for you?
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[01:30] <Ian_> For RTTY read ASCII, not Baudot . . . just in case you are unclear.
[01:30] <BUE_OSJ> Ian_: thanks. Yes i have one
[01:30] <BUE_OSJ> Ian_: i m using it... but i think i m doing it very wrong :S
[01:31] <Ian_> OK, What are you using on the PITs side, Baudspeed, how many bits, no parity and how many stop bits?
[01:32] <Ian_> 50 baud 7n2 ?
[01:32] <BUE_OSJ> sorry Ian i m too newbie
[01:33] <Ian_> OK you drive me and I'll try to guide you.
[01:33] <BUE_OSJ> i m using a dvb-tv usb dongle
[01:33] <BUE_OSJ> to see the signal on SDR Sharp
[01:34] <Ian_> I'm not familiar with the PITS board, but imagine that for telemetry you will need to be set up at 50 Baud, 7 data bits, no parity and 2 stop bits.
[01:34] <BUE_OSJ> ahhh ok
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[01:35] <Ian_> Right, is the output from the SDR patched to DL-FLDIGI?
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[01:36] <BUE_OSJ> Ian_: yes... can you see these doc? https://docs.google.com/document/d/15UaNKCybl-hm3WkyiqTo0Pzzrs3lTzfLuBzuEEsscxo/edit?usp=sharing
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[01:38] <Ian_> Yes, tune slightly lower to put the centre between the tones at around 1.5kHz. in the centre of your rx band pass filter
[01:39] <BUE_OSJ> Ian_: ahhh ok... and the red lines? that they matter?
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[01:42] <Ian_> Not totally familiar, but if you can adjust your rx gain so that it is clear where the two tones are appearing please.
[01:44] <Ian_> The red cursors seem to be around 1200Hz between them, but you have RTTY 100 Baud)
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[01:44] <BUE_OSJ> Ian_: ahhh
[01:45] <BUE_OSJ> Ian_: so they should be less?
[01:45] <Ian_> (*) 450Hz shift 8n1 (the 8n1 isn't a problem)
[01:45] <Ian_> What is the PITS shift between tones specified as?
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[01:47] <BUE_OSJ> Ian_: i don t know :(
[01:47] <BUE_OSJ> i put the carrier shift to 350
[01:48] <Ian_> 450 should be good to go. OK. lets take the PITS as a given. If you are listening to someone else's signal we would concentrate on the rx side anyway.
[01:50] <Ian_> Speed needs to match, 50 Baud is a good standard. 100 Baud is a possibility. There is an INVERT switch on DL_FLDIGI which swaps the sense of your tones.
[01:51] <Ian_> Normally with a stable signal without data the idle state is Mark on the high frequency.
[01:52] <BUE_OSJ> ahhh ok i put 50 baud
[01:52] <Ian_> 450Hz shift?
[01:53] <BUE_OSJ> yes
[01:53] <BUE_OSJ> it s decoding strange characters
[01:54] <Ian_> Show me please
[01:54] <BUE_OSJ> i have put one screenshot on the doc
[01:55] <Ian_> Show me the current decode
[01:55] <BUE_OSJ> Ian_: the current decode is?
[01:56] <BUE_OSJ> ahh ok
[01:56] <BUE_OSJ> modem decode
[01:56] <BUE_OSJ> ?
[01:56] <Ian_> A current image from dl-fldigi
[01:57] <BUE_OSJ> there i send a picture to the doc
[01:57] <BUE_OSJ> *sent
[02:01] <Ian_> Can you see the invert switch on dl-fldigi?
[02:02] <BUE_OSJ> Ian_: sorry, but i can t. where is that? on config?
[02:02] <Ian_> I'm not ot sure where it is but there is a diamond or something that indicates when the signal is inverted.
[02:02] <Ian_> Meaning button pressed.
[02:04] <BUE_OSJ> may be reverse?
[02:04] <BUE_OSJ> :)
[02:04] <BUE_OSJ> ok i press it and i have rv on green
[02:05] <Ian_> Yes. On fldigi RTTY setup, open up the receiver filter bandwidth
[02:06] <BUE_OSJ> ok... it is set on 68
[02:07] <Ian_> 68Hz, but we are using a 450Hz shift, so let's set it at 2500Hz or so for rx filter bandwidth - we don't want to chop off half the signal or more
[02:08] <Ian_> A better defined signal on the waterfall would be good. - Nice to see two tones, so if PITS is in the same room as your SDR move them apart please
[02:08] <Ian_> significantly.
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[02:12] <BUE_OSJ> Ian_: i can put a bandwith bigger than 1000
[02:12] <BUE_OSJ> :S
[02:12] <BUE_OSJ> sorry i can't
[02:12] <BUE_OSJ> i put a picture on the doc
[02:13] <BUE_OSJ> the pits it s about 1.5 meters from the decoder
[02:16] <Ian_> OK.On the SDR, can you adjust the signal rf or af gain to give a better defined waterfall signal. (preferably two tones only) I would like to see some yellow or even a splash of red
[02:16] <Ian_> In the fldigi waterfall
[02:16] <Ian_> OK on 1khz bandwidth - I was guessing.
[02:17] <Ian_> Back in the day we listened to the signal for the tuning.
[02:20] <BUE_OSJ> ok i put it to 1khz but well
[02:22] <Ian_> So what's happening, have you adjusted the signal level to get a better waterfall picture on dldigi?
[02:23] <BUE_OSJ> yes
[02:23] <BUE_OSJ> but i still have wrong chars :(
[02:24] <Ian_> Have you put a current picture to your shared document? Unreversing is an option too
[02:24] <BUE_OSJ> there i put a picture
[02:25] <BUE_OSJ> i ll try to unreverse
[02:29] <BUE_OSJ> Ian_: thanks a lot for your help...
[02:29] <BUE_OSJ> Ian_: i couldn t but well i ll keep on trying
[02:32] <Ian_> OK. Sorry that I'm not totally familiar with the programs, but you want to get the level of signal received so that you can sink the rogue harmonics. Perhaps by removing or restricting the antenna on the SDR
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[02:34] <Ian_> Then as long as the tone shift is the same, the baud speed matches and 7n1 (or 2) then it should only be a matter of tuning and perhaps the signal might be inverted, but that
[02:35] <Ian_> is the limit of the permutations really as long as the two tones will fit into the rx bandwidth filter, which is why you try to centre the signal on around 1.2kHz (middle of your rx passband)
[02:36] <Ian_> Sorry we didn't make it tonight. i'll make notes when daveake gives you the grif tomorrow so that I'm a little slicker next time. Thanks for your patience also.
[02:37] <BUE_OSJ> Ian_: you are brillant tonight
[02:37] <Ian_> That is one of the reasons that off the shelf units haven't been available until recently. People would get to understand the technology before getting plopped into the deep end of things
[02:38] <BUE_OSJ> Ian_: you really help me a lot...
[02:38] <BUE_OSJ> Ian_: i m pleased for your time and good predisposition for this. I m a newbie but well i m trying to learn
[02:39] <Ian_> Keep asking here. Your knowledge will increase quite quickly and those that are asleep are recharging their brains. Mine is about flat for the night. I should be in bed by now.
[02:39] <BUE_OSJ> jajajaa ok thanks a lot again Ian
[02:40] <Ian_> I assume that you are US based and in your late evening about now. 0240 local here now. Ja ja ja suggests hispanic?
[02:40] <BUE_OSJ> and sorry about my english
[02:40] <BUE_OSJ> jajaj yes from argentina GMT-3
[02:40] <Ian_> Me Espanol es muy poco
[02:40] <Ian_> Mi
[02:40] <BUE_OSJ> jajaja but it s fine.
[02:41] <Ian_> Buenos noches
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[02:41] <BUE_OSJ> Ian_: well i let you sleep and on this week i ll try to be here asking again. Thanks a lot!
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[02:41] <Ian_> Nada. Good night
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[07:31] <mfa298> Ian_: looking at the scrollback. The receive filter bandwidth should be about the same as the baud rate - it's the bandwidth dl-fldigi looks at per tone, The other common mistakes people make is the dropdown next to the frequency readout should be USB or RTTYR (not RTTY), and reverse should generally be off.
[07:33] <mfa298> Looking at that persons screenshots I'd also query how he has the audio going into dl-fldigi as I'm not sure the dl-fldigi screenshot really matches up with what sdr# is showing. (would probably also be worth checking sdr# - i.e. make sure it's set to usb)
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[12:25] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/hdW2ENH.jpg
[12:37] <Ian_> mfa298, Thanks for the heads up. Unfortunately I was working blind - no DL-FLDIGI her. Missed the USB v RTTY option, didn't know about the BW per tone and wasn't making much progress on getting an acceptable waterfall display to be able to clean up my decisions.
[12:38] <Ian_> It didn't really help with the images getting further away from the point of enquiry and having to scroll them - That took me a few minutes to realise.
[12:38] <mfa298> I'd probably have looked at the link between sdr# and dl-fldigi first in that instance.
[12:38] <mfa298> but well done on attempting late night support :)
[12:39] <Ian_> Always good to have a quick reverse if all else is failing . . . thanks very much. I'll make some notes for when I'm the only one awake next.
[12:39] <Ian_> Appreciated.
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[13:49] <Vaizki> I also learned a bit there... Didn't know those dl-fldigi settings
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[13:51] <Vaizki> maybe I still don't understand the receive filter bandwidth thing
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[13:52] <Vaizki> I can't see how baudrate affects filtering frequencies out
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[14:07] <Ian_> Yes, it's a bit difficult working semi blind, from first principles and certainly the method of displaying images is probably better done with imagur, so that the new information /
[14:07] <Ian_> travels with the conversation and also doesn't have to be scrolled when found.
[14:09] <Ian_> The per tone bandwidth seems perhaps to have more to do with the exact shape of the keying - rise and fall times of the keying that is, but I may be corrected there.
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[14:19] <infaddict> When soldering SMA connectors to edge of PCB, do i want a large solder pad covering all the metal pins, or just solder down the sides/under?
[14:20] <adamgreig> usually just the sides is fine
[14:20] <mfa298> Vaizki: the receive filter bandwidth is more about where dl-fldigi will look for energy when looking for data. With higher baud rates the energy is spread over more space - at least that's my understanding
[14:20] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Is it side mouting or vertical to the board ?
[14:20] <infaddict> ok thx, there is a small gap between the pins and the board, where board thickness isnt quite perfect fit. so one side will have a gap for solder to flow. unless i bent pins slightly.
[14:21] <infaddict> i have to do both. first up is side mounting to the HabAmp
[14:22] <Ian_> So exactly the width of the individual tone filters.
[14:22] <infaddict> in a few weeks time i have to do one on bottom of PCB to connect to antenna
[14:24] <infaddict> guessing i have to get the pin hot for solder to flow and as its quite large (in comparison to other tiny pins) that might be tricky
[14:25] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Yep do you have a ground plane on the lower pins and just side tracks for the upper pins
[14:25] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> worth doing those with a larger bit on the iron.
[14:26] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> its not so much greater temperature but more mass on the iron to allow sufficient heat to transfer
[14:27] <infaddict> The HabAmp has fairly large solder pads on both top and bottom: http://ava.upuaut.net/store/image/cache/data/hav3_pcb-rr-500x500.jpg
[14:27] <infaddict> so i'd be putting SMA on either side of that
[14:27] <infaddict> yep good shout on putting my large tip on
[14:27] <infaddict> size wise those large pads are about 5mm wide and middle one <2mm
[14:29] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> looks about right, I usually solder the pin (top) first then put a larger bit on the iron and solder the top earths and then use more solder on the underneath if there is a gap due o a thinner board.
[14:30] <infaddict> yep so there is slight gap so i will let the top pin lay flat on board, meaning slight gap is on underside where i can fill with more solder
[14:31] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> These had to be soldered in position as no room to slide the habamp into the case! http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/HABAMP_and_DONGLE/HABAMP_and_Dongle.jpg
[14:32] <infaddict> so did you have to rotate to do underneath?
[14:34] <infaddict> decent about of solder too which is what i was wondering
[14:34] <infaddict> *amount
[14:34] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Yup, put the nuts on loose with the spring washers, lside the board in whilst vertical then rotate and solder the top then rotate and solder the bottom, finally do one nut up tight and then tighten the other sufficiently!
[14:34] <infaddict> looks like you are doing something similar to me actually, putting dongle and habamp into enclosure!
[14:34] <infaddict> and powering from USB header
[14:34] <infaddict> in fact identical to my plan, but i havent decided on what shape or type of enclosure yet
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[14:35] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Yup works well gives plenty of screening and a single unit as use that in the campervan when out so wanted it fairly compact without tow many flying leads!
[14:35] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> http://360.g8dhe.net/hab_flights/HABAMP_and_DONGLE/
[14:35] <infaddict> did u use external pigtail to connect habamp and dongle?
[14:36] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Yup see all the pics on the link directly above
[14:36] <infaddict> aha thx for link
[14:36] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> that way i can have the amp in or out
[14:36] <infaddict> yep i was wondering if i might put that pigtail interal
[14:36] <infaddict> yep good point
[14:36] <infaddict> for diff freq that dont require it
[14:37] <infaddict> can i ask where you sourced the enclosure?
[14:37] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> with the E4000 front end and out in the country very little likelyhood of over loading so the filtering isn't needed
[14:37] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> but on a hilltop or near towns with stronger signals then the filtering becomes a necessity
[14:39] <infaddict> thanks Geoff-G8DHE-Lap this has been very useful for me. I need to decide on what enclosure to use first i guess.
[14:41] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> The one I used is standard eddystone one from Farnell, which is just the right size, same range as the one used in the encased Habamp.
[14:41] <infaddict> nice, just building up a Farnell order actually so very handy
[14:41] <infaddict> did you cut/drill the USB shape etc yourself?
[14:42] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Trimmed the USB board down to fit, it had sufficent room to allow it so cut off about 1/2" or so
[14:43] <infaddict> ok will measure up my USB dongle to see what size box i need. Thanks again!
[14:47] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Oh sorry yes just cut a slot for the USB socket and its closed and held in position by the lid.
[14:50] <infaddict> np, so bit of cutting and drilling to do to make things fit. nice little project.
[14:50] <infaddict> my dongle actually has MCX but have a pigtail to convert. or i could solder SMA onto dongle i guess.
[14:52] <infaddict> just opened up dongle and the mcx is right angle connector with usual 5 dice layout pins, so could easily replace with SMA.
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[15:22] <tgreer> hey all. I have a query i was looking for some help for. I want to buy some mylar balloons/envelopes to hold ~4L of a gas...
[15:22] <tgreer> what should i be searching for on the web?
[15:22] <Upu> the equipment to make it yourself
[15:23] <Upu> oh 4L
[15:23] <Upu> probably the same answer
[15:24] <tgreer> also next dumb question, how do i work out what size the balloon is? :)
[15:24] <pc1pcl> http://www.signatureballoons.co.uk/helium-information/
[15:25] <mattbrejza> 4L = 0.004m3?
[15:25] <pc1pcl> that actually has some ttables converting shape and inch size to lift and even content
[15:25] <mattbrejza> then 4/3*pi*r^3
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[15:27] <tgreer> well i wasn't using helium for a start... it's just for flotation, not lifting something into the sky
[15:29] <mattbrejza> just use two fizzy drink bottles?
[15:29] <tgreer> not compact enough to fit on drones
[15:29] <tgreer> i was thinking nos canisters with mylar balloons
[15:30] <tgreer> apparently 4L of nos (8g canister) will displace enough to lift 2kg
[15:30] <tgreer> to the sufrace
[15:30] <mattbrejza> well that at least answers your qestion about sizs
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[15:31] <tgreer> 3:25 PM <mattbrejza> then 4/3*pi*r^3 << not understanding this
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[15:31] <mattbrejza> its maths
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[15:32] <tgreer> i get the maths
[15:32] <tgreer> i mean
[15:32] <tgreer> i get that its match
[15:32] <tgreer> maths*
[15:32] <tgreer> is that the formula for volume
[15:32] <mattbrejza> yea
[15:32] <tgreer> so i just reverse for r
[15:33] <mattbrejza> yep
[15:33] <pc1pcl> 4liter or 4 dm^3 isn't that big, so you'd need to look for some kind of miniballoon. and I guess they won't be spheres but more or less flattend (like a lollypop)
[15:34] <tgreer> whatever, i'm not that fussy :)
[15:34] <tgreer> shape wise that is
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> Err
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> No2 is heavier than air
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> It will sink
[15:34] <mattbrejza> party balloons are about the same size as two drinks bottles, so they cant be too far off 4L
[15:35] <pc1pcl> meant to float on water, not air, I think SpeedEvil
[15:35] <SpeedEvil> ah
[15:35] <tgreer> ^^
[15:35] <tgreer> just boyancy aid thingy
[15:35] <SpeedEvil> Most gasses float on water ;)
[15:35] <tgreer> not making stuff fly
[15:35] <tgreer> nos canisters are cheap, small and easy accessible
[15:35] <tgreer> so why bother fighting to find other gas :)
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[15:37] <tgreer> 4L = 4000cm3 which makes r about 10cm
[15:38] <tgreer> or 9.85cm if we're being accurate
[15:46] <tgreer> lovely right onwards
[15:46] <tgreer> science!
[15:46] <tgreer> thanks all
[15:46] <pc1pcl> for a ballshaped balloon. If it is pill shaped you'd need to use a higher radius
[15:47] <adamgreig> tgreer: you can just buy cute little autoinflating things
[15:47] <adamgreig> that have some chemicals probably and a balloon that deploys
[15:47] <adamgreig> oh and i'm told you should be very careful if the plan is to save quadcopters hitting water
[15:48] <tgreer> its more to bring them back to the surface after they've hit the drink ;)
[15:48] <adamgreig> water pressure goes up with depth, and very quickly your gas canisters are at ambient pressure and won't discharge into balloons
[15:48] <adamgreig> so it needs to be fully inflated before something like 7-10m depth
[15:48] <adamgreig> or you're stuffed
[15:48] <adamgreig> (depending on your gas pressure of course)
[15:48] <tgreer> well average quad is 2kg
[15:48] <tgreer> 4kg of displacement
[15:49] <tgreer> should be enough to bring it to surface
[15:49] <pc1pcl> I think balloons size is usually given in 'diameter', so remember to double your radius or they will be quite a bit too small.
[15:49] <tgreer> if not, 8kg of displacement will be
[15:49] <adamgreig> that's not the issue
[15:49] <tgreer> pc1pcl: yep
[15:49] <adamgreig> well, I'm assuming you're flying with balloons empty
[15:49] <adamgreig> and plan to inflate if it hits water
[15:49] <tgreer> adamgreig: yes i get that i need to trigger asap
[15:49] <tgreer> yes
[15:49] <adamgreig> yea
[15:49] <adamgreig> 2kg of quad will sink like a brick as you can probably guess
[15:49] <adamgreig> so yea, triggering and inflating fast will be key
[15:50] <tgreer> ya
[15:50] <tgreer> im also going to have it wired to Rx on quad so you can trigger by switch before it hits
[15:50] <adamgreig> sounds fun
[15:50] <tgreer> if you can see it's going in
[15:50] <adamgreig> yea
[15:51] <adamgreig> I take it you also inhibit the motors after you start inflating balloons :P
[15:51] <tgreer> yes you should disarm it
[15:51] <Ian_> Potentially how deep is the water likely to be?
[15:54] <Ian_> My logic. Even with a quad floating you need to get to it, It's going to be drenched anyway, so why not just attach a small bouy on the end of a spool of parachute thread.
[15:56] <Ian_> And lift it to the surface when you get to the bouy. No excessively unnecessary weight on your flight.
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[15:56] <tgreer> Ian_: personal preference there are spool type things out there, but failure rate is pretty high
[15:57] <Ian_> OK, you have obviously thought about it.
[15:58] <tgreer> Ian_: im also talking about ~100g unit
[15:58] <infaddict> have you considered hydrostatic release units for deployment instead of manual ?
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[15:59] <tgreer> infaddict: whats that?
[15:59] <infaddict> a small device that detects water and automatically does something. it is mandatory on liferafts on certain vessels
[15:59] <infaddict> vessel sinks, liferaft auto inflates
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[15:59] <Ian_> Alkeseltzer tablet
[16:00] <tgreer> ah. i haven't quite decided on the exact method of detecting the splashdown
[16:00] <tgreer> i was thinking some sort of water sensor
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[16:00] <tgreer> pressure sensor won't work well underneath prop wash i don't think
[16:01] <Ian_> Alkaseltzer tablet disolves quickly providing light mechanical release.
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[16:04] <tgreer> Ian_: hmm ok will look into that
[16:06] <pc1pcl> still need to somehow trigger the inflation after detecting you're underwater. how do you trigger those No2 cartridges?
[16:06] <tgreer> break the seal on them
[16:06] <tgreer> i was thinking some sort of pin
[16:07] <infaddict> google how liferafts work. very similar.
[16:09] <pc1pcl> so the pin would be springloaded, with e.g. the dissolving tablet holding it back?
[16:10] <pc1pcl> need to somehow allow the water to get to the tablet, but then allow the NO2 to flow into the balloon..
[16:10] <SpeedEvil> Or just use a hydrogen generator
[16:10] <infaddict> and not allow rain water or dew to get to tablet
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[16:17] <tgreer> yeh, will be having a nosey at all of this
[16:17] <tgreer> thanks for the info
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[16:30] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SUNCH1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SUNCH1
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[16:43] <infaddict> i'm mounting some breakout boards onto PCB. a few have pin headers down one side only so are supported only by one side. is there such a thing as a support to place on other side?
[16:43] <infaddict> maybe something plastic or rubber that the breakout rests on. dunno.
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[16:44] <infaddict> and i also have a question about mounting holes/fixings for PCB. is there anything that wil hold a PCB on a piece of foam for example? i.e. pins or fixings in each corner.
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[16:48] <mattbrejza> gluegun
[16:50] <infaddict> ok kinda permanent tho i guess
[16:50] <infaddict> sry was that for supporting breakouts or fixing PCB to foam?
[16:51] <mattbrejza> i just assumed you were referring to securing boards into payloads
[16:52] <infaddict> yep thx, i was on 2nd q.
[16:52] <mattbrejza> but like a little gps board inly needs supporting at one end
[16:52] <mattbrejza> i guess you could use a sticky pad or something
[16:52] <mattbrejza> or just gluegun...
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[16:53] <mattbrejza> but not sure its worth it
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[16:55] <infaddict> yer i can see your point. they are light and as long as no downward pressure the solder pins are enough maybe.
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[16:57] <mattbrejza> the smart arse answer is 'dont bother using breakout baords'
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[16:57] <infaddict> indeed. me being new to all this thought that would be a good place to start. v2 of my whole design wont use them.
[16:58] <infaddict> baby steps ;-)
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[17:00] <mattbrejza> :)
[17:05] <Vaizki> evening
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[17:07] <infaddict> hey hows Barca?
[17:08] <Vaizki> in a train today
[17:08] <Vaizki> but its nice and warm here
[17:11] <Vaizki> Yesterday was +22 in the afternoon. coming from Finland that's full blow summer.
[17:11] <Vaizki> blown
[17:11] <Vaizki> thank you autocorrect
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[17:22] <infaddict> nice. was -4 yesterday and 0 today up in North of England.... brrr.
[17:23] <Vaizki> same in Finland. Normal weather would be -15 though.
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[17:25] <fsphil> nice to know it's warm somewhere
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[17:44] <floris497> hey, im making a radion balloon sonde, but we need a radio that can reach 250km and i have no idea where to start..
[17:46] <floris497> we want to transmit some sensor data and if bandwith allows send images
[17:48] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KF5YVS - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KF5YVS
[17:49] <Vaizki> Radiometrix NTX2B is a 433Mhz radio, easy to use and can be heard for 500+ km from high up
[17:50] <floris497> Vaizki: im looking into it :)
[17:50] <Vaizki> it is very popular here
[17:51] <floris497> what kind of reaciever would you suggest?
[17:52] <floris497> *and can that handle small images?
[17:52] <Vaizki> I am not an expert yet
[17:52] <floris497> oke thanks for the help so far :)
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[17:53] <dbrooke> floris497: http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
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[17:54] <dbrooke> and for images http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ssdv
[17:54] <floris497> dbrooke: pff doesnt look easy :p
[17:55] <floris497> thanks :) this is what i need :)
[17:55] <dbrooke> it wouldn't be fun if it was too easy 8-)
[17:57] <dbrooke> it's worth having a browse round that wiki though some stuff can be a bit hard to find
[17:57] <floris497> dbrooke: lol, be we need to do so many things :p but we have half a year to build it :)
[17:58] <floris497> dbrooke: can i use a SDR with a good antena for this?
[17:58] <Vaizki> yes
[17:58] <floris497> nice :)
[17:59] <floris497> ehm what is the lowes temperature up there?
[17:59] <dbrooke> even the cheap RTL SDR devices can be used but they benefit from some extra filtering and amplification
[17:59] <infaddict> around -50 external
[17:59] <floris497> dbrooke: i guessed so, 250km is a normal range right?
[17:59] <Vaizki> floris497: -55 or so? hopefully a lot warmer inside your payload box
[18:00] <infaddict> but payload often insulated so sees something like -20ish
[18:00] <Vaizki> especially if there is a camera running
[18:00] <floris497> yes but ur temperature sensor can sense to -55 :S
[18:01] <floris497> i was thingking about using an UDOO (udoo.org) is that to overpowered?
[18:01] <Vaizki> I had an UDOO Nova in my hand today
[18:01] <floris497> Vaizki: ah cool
[18:01] <floris497> you where on that place they are now
[18:02] <Vaizki> syntax error?
[18:02] <floris497> i backed the projected, but now they are much cheaper.. :(
[18:02] <floris497> Vaizki: huh?
[18:02] <Vaizki> sorry I didn't undertand your question
[18:02] <Vaizki> what place?
[18:03] <floris497> oh lol, im not sure but they have a stand somewhere, and the are posting pictures al week on there facebook :;p
[18:03] <Vaizki> ah ok yes I'm at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona
[18:03] <Vaizki> Freescale stand had some Udoo Novas
[18:03] <floris497> ah oke, freescale is now NXP :)
[18:04] <Vaizki> and for temperature, you can use for example maxim ds18b20 one-wire sensors, they go down to -55
[18:05] <floris497> Vaizki: have DS18s20
[18:05] <Vaizki> but yes, normally an Udoo would be overkill powerful. but if you want to send down pictures via SSDV you will need a bit more crunching power.
[18:05] <infaddict> yep ds18?20 very cheap and can string several on 1 wire, so internal and external for example
[18:05] <floris497> coasts are not the problem we have 500 euros :D
[18:05] <floris497> *costs
[18:06] <Vaizki> it will go quick
[18:06] <floris497> and 500 for the balloon
[18:06] <Vaizki> oh ok
[18:06] <floris497> and hellium
[18:06] <Vaizki> then you're golden
[18:06] <infaddict> lol nice budget.
[18:06] <Vaizki> upu will sell you a ublox gps module and ntx2b-fa radio ;)
[18:06] <infaddict> depends what equipment you have too. i started with nothing (no soldering iron, no multi meter) etc.
[18:07] <floris497> yep :p we do this for altran as a Internet of Things project
[18:07] <infaddict> so equipment costs for me were high
[18:07] <Vaizki> floris497: where are you, spain?
[18:07] <floris497> The netherlands
[18:07] <Vaizki> ah ok well then you should definitely look into ntx2b and RTTY tracking I guess
[18:08] <floris497> TX2A is real cheap :O
[18:08] <Vaizki> you will get lots of help from other there in tracking your balloon
[18:08] <Vaizki> floris497: well you know not all balloons are found.. ever.
[18:08] <floris497> :(
[18:08] <Vaizki> so normally you don't want to spend 1000 euros on it..
[18:08] <floris497> we will find it :)
[18:10] <Vaizki> there was a netherlands balloon team just a few weeks ago.. I don't think they found theirs?
[18:12] <floris497> that is sad :(
[18:12] <Vaizki> they know where it landed but it was in a city so they didn't find it
[18:12] <Vaizki> or maybe they did
[18:12] <Vaizki> I just didn't hear about it
[18:12] <floris497> i need to eat, will ask for advice some tome later :)
[18:13] <floris497> cant find that ntx2b module :O
[18:13] <Vaizki> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=92
[18:14] <Vaizki> upu runs the shop and is on this channel...
[18:14] <floris497> but that is listed as short range :p
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[18:15] <Vaizki> you will hear it as far as you can see it
[18:15] <Vaizki> when you lose line of sight you lose the signal
[18:15] <floris497> ah oke, cool :)
[18:16] <floris497> and an RTL SDR?
[18:16] <floris497> cool speak to you guys later
[18:17] <Vaizki> if I had 500 to spend on payload + radio, I would get a better SDR..
[18:19] <fsphil> you don't need too much cpu to do ssdv, if the camera already does the jpeg encoding
[18:19] <fsphil> or memory
[18:19] <Vaizki> right, I forgot that some cameras do all the work
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[18:20] <floris497> what is the max payload weight to keep in mind?
[18:20] <floris497> we might just put 2 webcams in..
[18:20] <floris497> and a camera on the camera port
[18:20] <Reb-SM0ULC> evening!
[18:20] <floris497> but im gone
[18:21] <fsphil> weight depends on local laws
[18:23] <Ian_> If you are near the Hague, there is a strong HAB community there that are very often to be found on here.
[18:25] <fsphil> I normally fly payloads of about 500g. though possibly because I'm not trying hard enough :
[18:25] <fsphil> :)
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[18:32] <infaddict> lol fsphil
[18:34] <Vaizki> the udoo neo I handled today seemed interesting, has a cortex-a9 core + cortex-m4 low power core on the same chip
[18:35] <fsphil> hard core
[18:35] <fsphil> what's the memory like?
[18:36] <Vaizki> 1GB I think
[18:36] <fsphil> sheesh
[18:36] <Vaizki> ok of course the M4 has it's own memory
[18:36] <fsphil> 4k is enough for a tracker :)
[18:37] <Vaizki> well this is more like a raspi with cortex-m4, accelerometers etc taped on
[18:37] <Vaizki> oh and it has wifi + bt 4.0
[18:37] <fsphil> sounds useful
[18:37] <mattbrejza> (not for a tracker though)
[18:37] <fsphil> yea overkill for a tracker
[18:37] <Vaizki> yea not really relevant for HAB
[18:37] <Vaizki> just interesting in a general way
[18:38] <Vaizki> he said you can keep the A9 running linux in sleep and wake it up from the M4 side when needed, then share memory between the two
[18:39] <Vaizki> I may be lying but I think he said 55 euros for the price.
[18:39] <Vaizki> http://www.udoo.org/udoo-neo/?lang=en
[18:39] <Vaizki> this one
[18:40] <Vaizki> and yes, arduino arduino scharduino barduino blaa blaa :)
[18:40] <Vaizki> "The processor embeds an ARM® Cortex-M4 microcontroller which makes the board compatible with the Arduino environment allowing high performance at a low price."
[18:41] <Vaizki> this sentence makes very little sense to me...
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[18:45] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VENUS1-4 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VENUS1-4
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[19:02] <floris497> i can take the heatsink of my udoo, whe sending it up probbably dont need it :p
[19:03] <floris497> what is the max of sending up? by law?
[19:03] <Upu> well
[19:03] <Upu> you say that but there is no air to conduct up there so stuff can overheat
[19:03] <Upu> weight ?
[19:03] <floris497> yep
[19:03] <Upu> We recommend you keep it below 1kg
[19:04] <floris497> Upu, but it wont get to 40C right?
[19:04] <Upu> decide what you'd be happy having thrown at your head from a car doing 30 mph then half it
[19:04] <floris497> hahaha
[19:04] <Upu> We had some switch modes on a Pi flight get so hot they melted into the polystyrene case but I doubt it will be an issue
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[19:05] <Upu> you don't need hand warmers is what I'm trying to say
[19:05] <floris497> we have a parachute, what are the differences i height with different payloads?
[19:05] <floris497> or doesnt that chnage much?
[19:05] <floris497> the cpu can heat the thing :p
[19:05] <Upu> if you've bought the parachute before you know how much your payload weighs its probably the wrong parachute
[19:06] <floris497> Upu, no we laned on buying one :p
[19:06] <Upu> good :)
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[19:08] <domojn> Hey
[19:08] <Upu> Ho
[19:08] <domojn> lets
[19:09] <Vaizki> go
[19:09] <domojn> :)
[19:09] <domojn> Is there an online directory of all the scheduled launches?
[19:09] <Vaizki> there is an ical feed
[19:09] <domojn> What's that?
[19:10] <Vaizki> http://habitat.habhub.org/calendar you can import it into your phone calendar, outlook etc
[19:10] <Vaizki> it will show launches in your calendar, automatically updated
[19:15] <floris497> can i just put in a li-po 5000mAh 12v RC battery?
[19:15] <domojn> How do I view that calender?
[19:15] <floris497> or is that way to much?
[19:15] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> if you use Win7 try http://wlcalendargadget.codeplex.com/
[19:15] <floris497> i can view it with ical
[19:16] <Vaizki> domojn: it's also shown on tracker.habhub.org
[19:18] <Vaizki> floris497: I use 4 x AA lithium batteries..
[19:18] <Vaizki> but not with a linux computer, with a micro controller
[19:18] <floris497> Vaizki: but i need to power that computer indeed :p
[19:19] <Vaizki> it's not difficult to measure power consumption and calculate what you need
[19:19] <floris497> i send UDOO a message asking what the earliest date is i can get my hands on the Udoo Neo :D
[19:20] <Vaizki> but I would never go with 12V
[19:21] <floris497> hm why?
[19:21] <Upu> because you don't need it
[19:21] <Upu> 12v ffs its not a car :)
[19:21] <Vaizki> you need 3.3V to run modern electronics
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[19:22] <Vaizki> regulated 3.3V
[19:22] <floris497> we put wheels on it and then it drives home :p
[19:22] <Vaizki> so maybe you want something between 4-6V in your battery..
[19:22] <floris497> 5v for the computer
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[19:23] <Vaizki> no, you don't need 5V for that either
[19:23] <floris497> really?
[19:23] <Vaizki> if you need 5V for it, then it's probably not the right computer :)
[19:24] <floris497> and some sensors we use might need more then 3.3
[19:24] <floris497> we are including temperature humidity pressure GPS
[19:24] <Vaizki> 5V is legacy
[19:24] <floris497> i know most work on 3.3
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[19:26] <Vaizki> well you don't have to believe me but you'll be fine with 3.3v
[19:26] <Vaizki> and pressure sensor will not be very useful
[19:27] <floris497> why? there is not much pressure but we want to measure it :p
[19:27] <Vaizki> well then you probably want an expensive one :)
[19:27] <Vaizki> because the cheap ones are very bad at low pressure
[19:28] <floris497> have one for $19
[19:28] <floris497> *on the list
[19:28] <R34lB0rg> a pirani gauge would be more useful
[19:29] <R34lB0rg> should be quite easy to build one with an arduino
[19:29] <floris497> hm, good idea
[19:30] <R34lB0rg> did someone try to use ads-b on a hab?
[19:31] <Vaizki> what...
[19:32] <SA6BSS-Mike> quadracopter counts ?? http://dangerousprototypes.com/2014/04/21/hak5-video-quadcopter-with-wifi-enabled-linux-computer-and-rtl-sdr/
[19:32] <Vaizki> you are starting to scare me
[19:32] <SA6BSS-Mike> he must meen listening :)
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[19:38] <floris497> R34lB0rg: would this be good? http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/24PCCFA6G/480-2501-ND/1248836
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[19:40] <floris497> nevermind not going to work..
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[19:52] <Upu> I can save you some money floris497
[19:52] <Upu> as you go higher the pressure drops
[19:52] <Upu> its pretty linear
[19:52] <Upu> well
[19:52] <Upu> modelled
[19:52] <floris497> maybe we should drop the pressure..
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[20:02] <Reb-SM0ULC> R34lB0rg: could a cool experiment :)
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[20:04] <Reb-SM0ULC> R34lB0rg: realy a few figures of how many flights, maximum range etc, ICAOs of the ones furthest away etc
[20:05] <Reb-SM0ULC> R34lB0rg: AIS could also be something to try
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[20:07] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03coche_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=coche_chase
[20:07] <Lunar_Lander> evening
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[20:15] <floris497> what is a good SDR?
[20:15] <Geoff-G8DHE> For what purpose ?
[20:16] <floris497> listenig for: NTX2B-FA
[20:16] <Geoff-G8DHE> To start with not much point in spending on an expensive one so start with a Dongle for about £10
[20:17] <floris497> GeekShadow: budged is not the problem.. we might as well get it right in the first place..
[20:18] <floris497> *Geoff-G8DHE
[20:18] <GeekShadow> I think it was for Geoff-G8DHE ;)
[20:18] <floris497> sorry :s
[20:18] <GeekShadow> np
[20:18] <Geoff-G8DHE> In that case don't bother with SDR go for http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/191446719463?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=108&chn=ps&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108
[20:19] <floris497> lol oke that is a problem for the budged, we have about 500
[20:19] <floris497> for the hardware
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[20:19] <floris497> think we can spend 100 on an SDR
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[20:22] <Geoff-G8DHE> The web site is down at the moment but when its backup then try this https://www.cosycave.co.uk/product.php?id_product=323
[20:27] <floris497> ah google didnt cache :(
[20:27] <Reb-SM0ULC> floris497: get a couple of dongles on ebay to parallell stuff. then maybe an fcd+ or airspy
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[20:27] <floris497> Reb-SM0ULC: wow what?
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[20:28] <floris497> maybe an hackRF :p
[20:29] <Reb-SM0ULC> also ok :)
[20:29] <Reb-SM0ULC> floris497: enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7tGFUG4FFQ
[20:29] <floris497> thanks :)
[20:30] <Reb-SM0ULC> His swe-nglish is as impressive as his knowledge.
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[20:32] <floris497> sounds good to mee ,nice old stuff those signal generators
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[20:37] <floris497> this video is really long :O
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[20:51] <floris497> what is best for antenna?
[20:51] <floris497> or can that be build by hand?
[20:52] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://widerimage.co.uk/docs/Mountain_Yagi_434_4Element.pdf
[20:55] <floris497> that means i can build it myself :)
[20:56] <floris497> how much will this coast me?
[20:56] <Geoff-G8DHE> What wood and coat hangers ?
[20:56] <floris497> and a cable :p
[20:56] <Geoff-G8DHE> Try Ebay
[20:57] <floris497> oke about nothing i guess :p and if i buy something premade? or can is steal that thing from our nebours roof XD
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[21:36] <Laurenceb_> anyone here?
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[21:42] <Upu> lurking Laurenceb
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[21:44] Action: Laurenceb_ has been thinking up some crazy stuff....
[21:45] <Laurenceb_> a UKHAS cubesat
[21:45] <Laurenceb_> inspired by $50SAT
[21:46] <Laurenceb_> it could be useful for picoballoons
[21:46] <dave-away> An rfm22b?
[21:46] <dave-away> That would be crazy :)
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[21:47] <Laurenceb_> nah si446x
[21:47] <Laurenceb_> ive been putting a lot of work into an uplink recently
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[21:47] <Laurenceb_> I realised now i have a 156dB link budget at 200bps, thats enough for a simple dipole to dipole sat uplink
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[21:50] <Laurenceb_> I've also got AFC running with reported output value, which could be used for ARGOS style positioning
[21:51] <Upu> Speak to Stuart
[21:51] <Upu> he's done lots on this
[21:52] <Laurenceb_> Stuart == $50SAT ?
[21:52] <Upu> yes
[21:53] <Laurenceb_> ah
[21:53] <Laurenceb_> yeah he makes it look easy
[21:53] <Laurenceb_> yet his radio was quite simple
[21:53] <Upu> he's done some balloon launches testing the link budget on lora
[21:53] <Upu> "simple" is a very polite way of describing an RFM22B
[21:54] <Laurenceb_> yeah im not sure LoRa would be as useful
[21:55] <Laurenceb_> judging from $50SAT, supercaps might be worth trying
[21:55] <Laurenceb_> im not sure what the regs are for launching caps versus batteries tho
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[21:59] <Laurenceb_> Ukraine conflict has effected Kosmotras :-S
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[22:05] <Laurenceb_> bbl
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[22:47] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[22:47] <Laurenceb_> Kosmotras.
[22:47] <Laurenceb_> erm http://www.southgatearc.org/news/august2013/opusat_cubesat_to_test_lithium_ion_capacitors.htm#.VPY549eXWf4
[22:49] <Laurenceb_> lol channel 4
[22:49] <Laurenceb_> not sure if new Brasseye series
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[22:58] <domojn> hello
[22:58] <domojn> on tracker.habhub, before they land there is a little symbol, what does this mean?
[22:59] <Laurenceb_> http://www.murata.com/~/media/webrenewal/support/library/catalog/products/capacitor/edlc/o83e.ashx
[22:59] <Laurenceb_> nice
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[23:02] <mattbrejza> how much smaller is that comapred to a standard supercap?
[23:02] <mattbrejza> in terms of energy density?
[23:02] <domojn> IS there a legend or something?
[23:03] <Laurenceb_> damn
[23:03] <Laurenceb_> not for use in WMD
[23:03] <Laurenceb_> there goes my cunning plan
[23:04] <domojn> ^
[23:05] <Laurenceb_> looks like 6.3kJ/kg
[23:06] <Babs_> laurenceb - the guy doing the live take on C4 is my next door neighbour
[23:07] <Laurenceb_> wtf
[23:07] <Laurenceb_> guy doing the live take?
[23:07] <Babs_> exactly.
[23:07] <Laurenceb_> oh doing the drugz?
[23:07] <Babs_> yes
[23:07] <Laurenceb_> haha wut
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[23:07] <Laurenceb_> how did he get involved?
[23:08] <Babs_> he is a TV doc, normally does things with his twin brother like he eats all sugar, his brother eats all fat etc.
[23:09] <Laurenceb_> oh
[23:09] <Laurenceb_> him
[23:09] <Laurenceb_> lol you must live in a high class area :P
[23:09] <Babs_> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03t8r4h
[23:10] <Babs_> it is very meeja
[23:10] <Babs_> so being a 3D printing, illiterate programmer and city investor makes me fit in perfectly
[23:10] <Babs_> ahem
[23:10] <Laurenceb_> Matthew Paris?
[23:11] <Babs_> no, Dr van tulleken
[23:12] <Laurenceb_> oh
[23:12] <Laurenceb_> mattbrejza: ok those things are completely rubbish
[23:12] <mattbrejza> lol ok
[23:12] <Laurenceb_> lithium ion supercaps are 9 times better
[23:12] <Laurenceb_> 55kJ/kg
[23:13] <Laurenceb_> wonder what Maxwell are
[23:14] <domojn> on the tracker
[23:15] <Laurenceb_> looks like 28kJ/kg
[23:15] <Laurenceb_> not bad
[23:16] <domojn> was sunch launched or did it land in Walsall?
[23:17] <domojn> i cant find a key anywhere which show what the symbols mean
[23:18] <mattbrejza> li-ion being ~500kJ/kg
[23:21] <Laurenceb_> Panasonic have hit 970
[23:21] <mattbrejza> sounds like a good representation of the population there channel4
[23:21] <Laurenceb_> I was just looking at supercap for cubesat
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> looks like a good idea to me :D
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> dunno what the launch company would have to say...
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> leaking electrolyte would really ruin everyones day
[23:23] <domojn> anyone?
[23:24] <Laurenceb_> im not familiar iwth that stuff domojn
[23:24] <Laurenceb_> day job to keep up with rather than the tracker
[23:24] <domojn> ok
[23:27] <domojn> I was just interested in receiving the telemetry data
[23:27] <Laurenceb_> 50$SAT was http://pocketqub.org/standard/
[23:28] <Laurenceb_> looks doable to have a up/downlink with 50grams of supercap in that format
[23:28] <Laurenceb_> all we would need
[23:35] <Laurenceb_> holy shit
[23:35] <Laurenceb_> https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satellite-missions/g/gomx-1
[23:35] <Laurenceb_> ambitions antenna
[23:35] <Laurenceb_> *ambitious
[23:37] <Laurenceb_> http://hackaday.com/2013/10/02/pocketqubes-even-smaller-than-a-cubesat/
[23:37] <R34lB0rg> ambitious mission
[23:37] <Laurenceb_> In this case HOPE RFM223 seems like an appropriate name for a rx/ I lulled
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[23:43] <domojn> helix antennas are interesting
[23:43] <domojn> particularly that one
[23:43] <domojn> Looks like it was taken out of a box mattress
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[23:48] <Ian_> domojon, if the symbol had what looked like a parachute, then it's a balloon in descent after burst. If it looks a bit like a drum, then it's apparently on the ground.
[23:49] <Ian_> domojn if you really need someone to explain what a symbol means, best you show them what you are referring to, otherwise it causes a lot of guessing as to what you mean
[23:50] <Ian_> Does that answer your question?
[23:52] <domojn> kinda
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[00:00] --- Wed Mar 4 2015