highaltitude.log.20150224

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[00:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KF5PGW-4 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KF5PGW-4
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[00:47] <cambazz> are there any uses for these nrf24l01's in hab? they are fairly low range right
[00:47] <cambazz> and how do you keep those balloons not exploding, i.e. are they buoyant?
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[00:54] <cambazz> and what would be difference of http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=51 and http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=52 except from antenna? we could get away with using a chip antenna for hab right?
[00:57] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 033144581269_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=3144581269_chase
[00:58] <cambazz> SpacenearUS: are you a robot or a person?
[01:00] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03lfahp2e86dgipo66_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=lfahp2e86dgipo66_chase
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[01:45] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03VZK-1 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VZK-1
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[01:51] <lz1dev> Vaizki: are you testing right now?
[01:51] Nick change: spe -> Guest42601
[01:55] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03W0WYX - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=W0WYX
[02:00] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03VZK-1 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VZK-1
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[02:12] <fxmulder> so anyone know how to make one of these si4012's spit out aprs/afks?
[02:12] <fxmulder> afsk
[02:20] <lz1dev> does it have FM modulation?
[02:28] <fxmulder> it does fsk
[02:28] <fxmulder> seems like fsk to afsk should just be a linear transformation
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[02:59] <fxmulder> looking at https://github.com/tkrahn/pecanpico5a it may be more complicated than that
[03:15] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03VZK-1 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VZK-1
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[04:05] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03VZK-1 after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VZK-1
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[07:11] <Vaizki> Sorry everyone for The Spam, i can't fix that,,, :P
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[07:27] <lz1dev> Vaizki: i've fixed the bug
[07:27] <lz1dev> don't worry
[07:29] <mfa298> cambazz: the chip antenna should be fine on a balloon as long as you don't have any sources of interference nearby.
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[08:04] <Vaizki> lz1dev, can I ask, what was it?
[08:06] <lz1dev> there was a certain piece of code, that assumed there is always a time variable
[08:06] <Vaizki> also, is there any way to nuke my tests from the db?
[08:07] <lz1dev> but in your case, there isn't, and the default time is 00:00:00, database fills in the current date, and you get the timestamp
[08:07] <lz1dev> then the bots makes query, that aggragets and orders by time, since there are many rows with the same time
[08:08] <lz1dev> occasionally you get them in different order
[08:08] <Vaizki> ah ok so it's now using the time of db insertion as the default?
[08:08] <lz1dev> now if there is not time, it uses current time
[08:09] <Vaizki> right. thanks.
[08:09] <lz1dev> common type of bug
[08:09] <lz1dev> make assumtion that aren't always true
[08:09] <lz1dev> only most of the time
[08:09] <Vaizki> so any way to nuke my data?
[08:10] <lz1dev> sure, you want to?
[08:10] <Vaizki> well if you want to find more bugs we can keep it for a while :)
[08:10] <lz1dev> nah im done
[08:10] <Vaizki> or maybe this timestamp fix will also fix the web tracker not updating?
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[08:11] <lz1dev> well the tracker orders the packets by gps_time
[08:11] <lz1dev> so if you get the same gps_time, it assumes it's the same packet
[08:11] <Lunar_LanderU> morning
[08:11] <infaddict> ah even if sentence id is different?
[08:11] <lz1dev> and discards it, if there is one already
[08:11] <lz1dev> yep
[08:11] <infaddict> we were discussing this yeterday
[08:11] <lz1dev> essentually you can feed packets in any order
[08:12] <infaddict> so if you have no lock (and therefore no time), the only thing to make your packet different each time is sentence id
[08:12] <SA6BSS> time bugs, interesting to se what happens when the ad a leap second in june http://www.livescience.com/49370-leap-second-added-2015.html
[08:12] <lz1dev> and it will sort them by gps_time
[08:12] <infaddict> but its now using db time where 00 time received right?
[08:12] <lz1dev> when you think about it, there shouldn't be more than 1 packet per seconds
[08:12] <lz1dev> yep
[08:13] <Vaizki> well then you can nuke my data.. payloads are named "vaizki-test" and yes I managed to make 2 with the same name
[08:14] <lz1dev> those don't get deleted
[08:14] <lz1dev> they are forever
[08:15] <Vaizki> so it doesn't matter that there's >1 with the same name etc, those are only for manual searching and dl-fldigi etc always use the payload doc id
[08:16] <lz1dev> habitat's logic is to always use the latest one
[08:16] <lz1dev> so you can have as many as the same name
[08:16] <lz1dev> with*
[08:17] <lz1dev> and you can't change existing one
[08:17] <lz1dev> you edit by copy essentially
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[08:20] <infaddict> Yep I've ended up with about 6 by editing
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[08:25] <Vaizki> right, but that just overpopulates the payload docs, the flight docs are more controlled because that's what shows up on dl-fldigi dropdowns etc?
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[08:31] <Vaizki> which I was also wondering about, my dl-fldigi only shows B-64 Contestia in the active flights
[08:32] <mfa298> the active flights list is controlled by the flight docs
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[08:33] <Vaizki> so most of the people who launch never file a flight doc?
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[08:34] <mfa298> most people that launch file a flight doc for the flight
[08:34] <mfa298> but there aren't many active flights at the moment
[08:34] <Vaizki> like there was OHUP about 3 days ago
[08:34] <mfa298> the key word there is "active"
[08:35] <Vaizki> so someone deactivates them manually or they time out?
[08:36] <craag> you set a time window when you create it
[08:36] <mfa298> the aprs flights dont have flight docs as they're imported from a different system, flights using habhub should have flight docs which will have launch dates on them
[08:36] <craag> morning mfa298
[08:36] <mfa298> morning craag
[08:36] <Vaizki> ah ok, yea I got that APRS import from the bot interaction on the channel earlier
[08:38] <craag> Got the ISP's IPv6 routed through to the websdr last night :D
[08:39] <craag> http://[2a05:5241:100:4000:223:aeff:fe59:a143]/
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[08:39] <lz1dev> Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at [2a05:5241:100:4000:223:aeff:fe59:a143].
[08:40] <lz1dev> wish i had ipv6 ;(
[08:41] <craag> Can now reach every device on the LAN by it's own IP \o/
[08:42] <craag> (although I've firewalled all but port 80)
[08:42] <lz1dev> you will be able to ping your shoes
[08:42] <lz1dev> future is bright
[08:42] <craag> ikr
[08:43] <craag> NAT-less shoes!
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[08:43] <daveake> you can reboot your feet
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[08:45] <mfa298> craag: sweet :)
[08:45] <lz1dev> i feel left out not having ipv6
[08:45] <lz1dev> :(
[08:46] <craag> sixxs.net ;)
[08:46] <mfa298> http://he.net/
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[08:47] <mfa298> I think I currently have the longest name on the websdr
[08:47] <craag> Although now having seen the light of ISP dual-stack - tunnels are a bit hackish
[08:48] <craag> hmm mine is a few pixels longer, probably just the font though!
[08:48] <mfa298> also looks like something (maybe the software) is truncating the last part
[08:49] <craag> mm
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[09:20] <Vaizki> June 9th, 2015 is the national IPv6 adoption day here in Finland.. I don't have very high hopes of ANYTHING happening..
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[09:30] <mfa298> There was a worldwide IPv6 launch day several years ago and not much happened (a few major sites added AAAA to their main domains but very few ISPs did anything)
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[09:40] <Vaizki> yea I know.. I guess for the ISPs a major hurdle is the quality of the $2 plastic boxes they call CPE
[09:41] <Vaizki> or settling on a method to allocate end-user prefixes to the CPEs
[09:49] Nick change: Guest42601 -> spe
[09:50] <mfa298> when I've talked to my ISP they just seem to bury their heads in the sand (we've got enough IPv4 addresses so it's not an issue)
[09:50] <mfa298> would be nice to have non tunneled IPv6 (or even only a tunnel from the ISP rather than from somewhere else)
[09:50] <Vaizki> I'd place 90% odds on our ISPs putting out 6rd and taking another 10 year time-out on thinking about it
[09:51] <Vaizki> but 6rd would be a start at least
[09:52] <mfa298> I'd like it if my ISP would do something even if it's not the end solution (I don't mind something I have to configure manually) and my IPv6 tunnel already ends on my ADSL router so it's more than capable.
[09:55] <craag> virgin media have had a successful trial of it - but I think they have to upgrade the cabs for it
[09:55] <craag> BT are supposedly rolling it out soon (they've not got enough ips, now using cgnat)
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[09:57] <Vaizki> you mean native ipv6 or 6rd?
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[09:59] <craag> not sure tbh
[10:00] <Vaizki> 6rd doesn't need any modifications to the ISP network outside of some central data center where they would set up a 6rd gateway
[10:00] <Vaizki> which is why it's easy-mode IPv6 which is why I think it will spread like wildfire ;)
[10:01] <Vaizki> ok you need to put a 6rd configuration option in your DHCP offers that go out from DSLAMs but that's easy as pie, has been standard fare for 20 years
[10:01] <Vaizki> that way your home router with 6rd support will know where to tunnel ipv6 at the ISP
[10:01] <gonzo_> I assume that you can still use the lagacy adressing on the internal nets?
[10:02] <Vaizki> you mean like 10.0.0.0/8 private ip's behind NAT?
[10:02] <Vaizki> at home
[10:02] <gonzo_> yep
[10:04] <Vaizki> yes sure but of course IPv6 + 6rd support in the router means it will send out router advertisements with your allocated IPv6 prefix (which is based automatically on your IPv4 address from ISP). Then any IPv6 enabled devices at home will get an IPv6 address using stateless autoconfiguration and/or DHCPv6
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[10:05] <Vaizki> so if your home router has 6rd support and the ISP has 6rd support + magic option in DHCP, IPv6 will appear magically in your home network
[10:05] Action: SpacenearUS is going for a nap.
[10:05] Action: SpacenearUS is back!
[10:05] <Vaizki> naturally I expect all home routers to simulate NAT-"security" by not allowing any incoming connections over IPv6 either
[10:06] <Vaizki> so only connections initiated from the internal network will be allowed
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[10:06] <Vaizki> otherwise the dream of IPv6 spec writers - a world where every device everywhere is fully connected to each other - gets realized
[10:07] <Vaizki> and moments later your printer is calculating dogecoin hashes
[10:10] <gonzo_> think I'mm happier behind my own firweall
[10:10] <gonzo_> expexy I'd just have to configure the dirty side port to accept ipv6
[10:11] <gonzo_> andcarry on V4 intenally
[10:16] <craag> Openwrt on the websdr router blocks inbound v6 by default.
[10:16] <Vaizki> yea it's a reasonable default in today's world
[10:16] <craag> I've got exceptions for websdr port 80, and for a Pi port 80.
[10:16] <Vaizki> not ideologically correct in any way but reasonable
[10:17] <Vaizki> every internet service and protocl is today crafted to work from behind multiple NATs if needed
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[10:17] <craag> I did open up all traffic to those ips - but then they're both already on my vpn so I don't gain anything, and opens up a massive attack surface.
[10:18] <Vaizki> and even though NAT is not a security mechanism really, it has basically become the main line of defence
[10:18] <craag> Plus I should probably change the ssh password on the pi if I do that ;)
[10:18] <Vaizki> buah
[10:19] <Vaizki> the only downside to that default no-incoming-connections policy is that even the cheapest home router needs to maintain a full table of all connections to make sure incoming packets match one of them
[10:19] <craag> NAT itself isn't, but it does make it impossible to route unsolicited incoming traffic.
[10:20] <craag> (unless you add selective rules, ie port forwards/dmz)
[10:20] <Vaizki> and when home routers do anything more than move bits from port A to B, they typiclaly are not up to the job :)
[10:21] <craag> heh yep
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[10:25] <Vaizki> also IPv6 will naturally blow those tables up to 4x their current size and kick all the matching from cheap asics to the router cpu
[10:25] <Vaizki> so it's going to be a bit of a mess but we should get on with it
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[10:26] <SpeedEvil> yeah - I mean - IPV6 has sudddenly come upon us with no notice.
[10:26] <SpeedEvil> Who knew about it before last November.
[10:26] <Vaizki> :D
[10:27] <Vaizki> I did, but only because my friend was co-chair of IPv6 Operations at IETF
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[10:28] <gonzo_> isp's will just roll it out without telling anyone. Mine had a tendency to change the connection params on a whim. After a week of calling tech support, would finally get the new params
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[10:29] <gonzo_> they probably assume that is their cheepo supplied modems will auto detec it, then that's good enough
[10:29] <Vaizki> I don't mean it's a mess because it's coming up suddenly, of course not. it's a mess because ISPs buy the cheapest home CPE they can find and then have their firmwares customized by some sweat shop in china but they probably don't test the results as vigorously as they should
[10:29] <gonzo_> cheap'o
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[10:32] <gonzo_> sad times when the accepted/expected level of engineering integrity is equiv to that of murfy roadmen
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[10:34] <cambazz> how do you keep a baloon buoyant, i.e. stop it from exploding when it goes high and pressure drops?
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[10:36] <SpeedEvil> Balloon rigidity
[10:37] <SpeedEvil> If at some altitude, the pressure that can be exerted by the balloon envelope is so high as to make the balloon neutrally bouyant - it stops rising
[10:37] <SpeedEvil> If at some altitude, the pressure that can be exerted by the balloon envelope on the contained gas is so high as to make the balloon neutrally bouyant - it stops rising
[10:39] <cambazz> SpeedEvil: but how do we accomplish that? I understand some baloons just pop at a certain altitude, and there are other types of balloons that dont pop.
[10:40] <SpeedEvil> Either a rigid envelope, made from a rigid plastic, or in practice, some latex balloons seem to have an overpressure of the order of 4mB or so at burst.
[10:40] <SpeedEvil> If the envelope is underfilled - latex - so that it rises slowly, it will often float.
[10:40] <SpeedEvil> This varies significantly between maker and batch of balloons and is not usually specified
[10:40] <SpeedEvil> What are you trying to do
[10:41] <cambazz> oh ok, so just fill it up with less helium, or use one of those mylar like baloons.
[10:41] <SpeedEvil> yes
[10:41] <cambazz> SpeedEvil: just trying to learn that was some question i had in mind.
[10:41] <SpeedEvil> If your latex balloon ascends at 5m/s - 'no' balloons will float
[10:41] <SpeedEvil> At 1m/s or 0.5m/s quite a lot may
[10:45] <cambazz> ok i also understand it is a factor of chance right
[10:50] <Vaizki> chance in terms of a specific balloon specimen's conformance to spec but other than that it's math?
[10:51] <Vaizki> if the balloon is mylar and it doesn't expand, then the amount of air it displaces stays constant and its weight is also constant (discounting slow dissipation of helium)
[10:52] <Vaizki> so it will float on some specific density of air
[10:52] <cambazz> Vaizki: ok i got it, so of course we can calculate, but sometimes specs arent right.
[10:52] <cambazz> where do I get those mylar baloons
[10:52] <Vaizki> I have not flown balloons, just using my basic physics skills :)
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[10:55] <Vaizki> how about this one? http://www.aliexpress.com/item/116-65cm-Oversized-Hello-Kitty-Cat-foil-balloons-cartoon-birthday-decoration-wedding-party-inflatable-air-balloons/32285198363.html
[10:55] <alxwntr> lol
[10:55] <Vaizki> :)
[10:56] <alxwntr> May I ask a question about phone networlks for backup trackers?
[10:56] <cambazz> oh come on
[10:56] <alxwntr> I have an old Galaxy ace on Vodafone
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[10:57] <alxwntr> me, cambazz?
[10:57] <SpeedEvil> alxwntr: Sure
[10:57] <Vaizki> cambazz, what?
[10:57] <craag> cambazz: The qualatex 36" silver foil balloons are one of the favourites
[10:57] <Vaizki> damn you ruined it!
[10:58] <SpeedEvil> alxwntr: Consider not how often you can get signal - but how often you can get signal if you turn the phone on at a random orientation on the ground
[10:58] <alxwntr> I was wondering if anyone had recommendations for a much preferred network - I'm going to run Space Tracker as a backup
[10:58] <SpeedEvil> This is much less than if holding it at head height.
[10:58] <craag> I've used a rocket shaped one ;)
[10:58] <craag> it didn't work as well :(
[10:58] <SpeedEvil> alxwntr: Coverage varies with location
[10:58] <Vaizki> that said, mylar balloons are not very environmentally friendly.
[10:59] <Vaizki> not saying you shouldn't do it but it's a consideration
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[11:00] <SpeedEvil> alxwntr: It's probably impossible to give a generic answer - look at the coverage in the area you intend to land, and realise that you're probably going to get somewhat less coverate than the maps say
[11:01] <cambazz> craag: does those have baloons have silver or any metal on them, i.e. would it create maybe interfeernce problem?
[11:01] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Try it yourself, place the working phone on the ground and then call it from your normal mobile phone does it ring? Try ditches and different orientations as well!
[11:01] <craag> cambazz: Interference with what?
[11:02] <SpeedEvil> Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: Also underwater
[11:02] <alxwntr> heh
[11:02] <cambazz> craag: gps reception or tracker?
[11:02] <Vaizki> cambazz, maybe put more than 15cm of line between balloon and payload if you're worried about shading gps satellites?
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[11:03] <alxwntr> Thanks Geoff
[11:03] <craag> cambazz: The tracker is received from the ground - so it's not in the way there.
[11:03] <craag> And for gps what really matters is satellites at the horizon.
[11:03] <craag> So it doesn't get in the way there either :)
[11:04] <craag> (I've flown them with a tracker on the neck, with gps chip antenna)
[11:04] <cambazz> nice.
[11:04] <cambazz> right now i am replicating cubex-1 on my breadboard.
[11:04] <craag> cool
[11:05] <cambazz> we'll see how this goes. have they ever recaptured one of those cubexes?
[11:05] <cambazz> i.e. found the payload after the landing?
[11:05] <craag> I don't know actually - haven't kept track of the flights over there
[11:05] <craag> you in california too?
[11:06] <cambazz> no i am in istanbul
[11:06] <cambazz> will launch probably from an island in the middle of marmara sea
[11:06] <craag> that's brave
[11:06] <craag> how are you planning recovery?
[11:07] <Vaizki> umm cubex-1 is way too heavy for mylar party balloons I'd think=
[11:07] <craag> Yes it is
[11:07] <cambazz> i am not. :) thats why trying to design something as little and as cheap as possible.
[11:07] <Vaizki> think 15 grams or something
[11:07] <cambazz> oh no. what is suitable for mylar baloons then?
[11:07] <craag> ~80g limit, 50g if you want any height at all out of it.
[11:07] <craag> for float: 15g
[11:08] <craag> (B-64 was ~11g I think)
[11:08] <Vaizki> so 50g would go how high?
[11:08] <cambazz> are those for payloads, or total weight with the baloon
[11:08] <craag> it would burst at ~4km in my experience
[11:08] <craag> jsut payload
[11:08] <Vaizki> and rope
[11:08] <Vaizki> well string :)
[11:09] <Vaizki> hmm so why does it burst at 4km with 50g on it? if it gets that high, why doesn't it float?
[11:09] <Vaizki> or do you have to put in so much helium the mylar can't take it?
[11:10] <Vaizki> I mean initial volume of the mylar balloon has to be so big for 50g that it will rupture from overpressure at 4km?
[11:10] <craag> yep (to the second one)
[11:11] <craag> >10g of free lift generally causes burst.
[11:11] <Vaizki> and silver balloon to stop the sun from heating it up?
[11:12] <craag> Wasn't really thinking that much about it at that point
[11:14] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Float data here at the bottom of the page http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:microballoons:data
[11:18] <Vaizki> interesting
[11:18] <alxwntr> In case anyone's interested, from the providers' graphs, EE has the most complete coverage across most of England. Most others have numerous small dead-spots.
[11:18] <cambazz> ok this part i did not understand: it the weight is more, the pop altitude is less? should not it be the reverse?
[11:19] <craag> so more weight, means you need more lift
[11:19] <craag> more lift means more helium
[11:19] <craag> more helium means the balloon is fuller
[11:19] <cambazz> ok and more helium is lower popping altitude.
[11:19] <cambazz> ok
[11:19] <craag> so it has less room to expand - and will reach it's limits quicker
[11:20] <craag> half the game with floating, is to put in as *little* lift as you can
[11:20] <craag> < 1.5g of free lift (additional lift once it's carrying the payload)
[11:20] <Vaizki> because those balloons are not pressure vessels, they are party toys where the helium is simply used to create a rigid lighter than air body
[11:21] <craag> too little however, and if it picks up moisture, it'll come back down :(
[11:21] <Vaizki> put rainx on it ;)
[11:21] <cambazz> ok. well i am just asking for curiosity, I think the first baloon i will send i will try to have as much lift as possible so it goes as quick as possible and does not go that far
[11:22] <alxwntr> it's the difference between the atmospheric pressure when the helium fills the envelope and the pressure at which zero lift is achieved - higher lift makes this difference bigger and so makes burst more likely
[11:22] <Vaizki> well too much lift and it won't go very high
[11:22] <alxwntr> (I think)
[11:23] <cambazz> well but what if we got a small payload, and more lift than the payload, but still little helium?
[11:24] <craag> that's exactly what you want
[11:24] <cambazz> craag: thanks
[11:24] <Vaizki> little helium as in envelope as empty as possible
[11:25] <Vaizki> so it has room for expansion under lowering outside pressure
[11:26] <alxwntr> Is the payload weight important? Isn't it to do with overall lift?
[11:26] <craag> alxwntr: Less payload weight, less overall lift you need :)
[11:26] <Vaizki> smaller balloon
[11:27] <craag> err why do you want smaller balloon?
[11:28] <Vaizki> I would think they are cheaper and use less helium?
[11:29] <craag> Use less helium yes - but generally a larger balloon will get you better volume/envelope-weight ratio.
[11:29] <Vaizki> well yes.. I did have math at school :)
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[11:30] <craag> If you want to achieve easier float/higher altitude, you want the biggest balloon you can afford, or is legal.
[11:31] <Vaizki> so you can underfill it as much as possible?
[11:31] <craag> Yep
[11:32] <Vaizki> right.. so now all we need is 8m diameter mylar balloons filled with hydrogen
[11:32] <craag> Leo made his own for the later B-* series to get more volume than the 36" qualatex
[11:32] <craag> yep
[11:32] <Vaizki> yea mylar film is not hard to work with if you find the sheets
[11:32] <craag> a lot of research done into massive mylar balloons
[11:33] <craag> Dan did a talk on them a couple of years ago at ukhas conf
[11:33] <craag> (and now works for loon)
[11:33] <Vaizki> hehe
[11:34] <Vaizki> loon is not mylar though?
[11:34] <Vaizki> those are BIG balloons
[11:34] <craag> I can't recall what they're made out of - also they do some clever altitude control stuffs ;)
[11:35] <craag> http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUGkq3Q2JQhN_ChjcPPwAW3A&v=ilaKtZz5fP0&feature=player_detailpage
[11:35] <craag> http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUGkq3Q2JQhN_ChjcPPwAW3A&v=cxkZViG4yoc&feature=player_detailpage
[11:35] <craag> That's his 2012 talk
[11:36] <craag> Titled 'small..' - maybe I'm thinking of the wrong one - but he does talk a lot about mylar balloons in that one.
[11:38] <Vaizki> well I'm not sending hostile mylar spy balloons into russia just yet
[11:38] <Vaizki> .. that's where any and every floater launched from Finland would end up instantly
[11:38] <Vaizki> and not sure how much help I'd get in tracking from there
[11:39] <craag> Yeah APRS would be the way to go up there.
[11:40] <Vaizki> well airborne aprs is possible here but requires a separate permit
[11:40] <craag> ah :/
[11:41] <Vaizki> there is a long history of APRS balloons here though
[11:42] <Vaizki> I think July 1998 at least there was an APRS balloon
[11:43] <Vaizki> first HAM balloons on 2m/70cm are from 1967
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[11:45] <Vaizki> "When an amateur radio station is to be used in an airborne vehicle, a permission must be gotten from the civil aviation authority as well as the communications regulatory authority"
[11:46] <Vaizki> my translation, but that's the law here...
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[11:56] <lz1dev> !aprs add SQ9NKH-7 testlol
[11:56] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Added 03SQ9NKH-7 as 10(testlol) to APRS Importer
[11:56] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03testlol - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=testlol
[11:57] <lz1dev> !aprs remove SQ9NKH-7
[11:57] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Removed 03SQ9NKH-7 from APRS Importer
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[12:21] <nats`> I thought kicad couldn't make a worse library management than their first choice.... and now I discover 2014/2015 release
[12:25] <Laurenceb> https://instagram.com/p/zeJT1clqic
[12:25] <Laurenceb> lol the ending
[12:28] <Vaizki> lol bikes on the wall and crap everywhere
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[13:48] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KF5PGW-4 after 0313 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KF5PGW-4
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[14:25] <alxwntr> Hey craag (and anyone who was listening to the floater conversation)
[14:26] <alxwntr> I was just doing some calcs about the superpressure at float for various lifts and payload weights
[14:27] <alxwntr> Perhaps I misunderstood, but you seemed to be saying that the most important factor is payload weight
[14:27] <alxwntr> but it seems like free lift is way more important
[14:28] <craag> yes
[14:28] <alxwntr> you do end up with higher floating superpressures at float foro heavier payloads
[14:28] <alxwntr> but the relationship is nowhere near as strong as with free lift
[14:28] <craag> getting free lift right is an easy problem to solve though
[14:29] <craag> getting a payload <15g is a lot more difficult!
[14:29] <alxwntr> ah of course
[14:29] <alxwntr> a gnat's eyelash, as my physics teacher used to say
[14:30] <alxwntr> well, it was an interesting analysis anyway
[14:30] <alxwntr> I don't think I've used PV=nRT since A-level!
[14:31] <craag> do post it on the wiki or somewhere if you have a chance
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[14:31] <alxwntr> sure thing - will do :)
[14:31] <craag> we had lots of people asking about the maths of it during the B-* series
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[14:46] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03K6RPT-11 after 0313 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=K6RPT-11
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[15:00] <fxmulder> yeah I think I was kind of being an idiot about fsk vs afsk
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[15:02] <jonsowman> greed
[15:03] <jonsowman> erm, sorry
[15:03] <jonsowman> ignore me :)
[15:03] <Vaizki> afsk and you shall be answered
[15:03] <fxmulder> heh
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[15:23] <alxwntr> Here's that spreadsheet I mentioned, craag (sorry, I just had to nip out)
[15:23] <alxwntr> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2ZhzFb9a2gsN1ktRWVRNllGLXc/view?usp=sharing
[15:23] <alxwntr> In case you're interested
[15:24] <craag> thanks :)
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[15:32] <alxwntr> Hmm, I was going to post it on the microballoons page
[15:32] <alxwntr> but it seems to be read only
[15:32] <alxwntr> http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:microballoons:data
[15:32] <alxwntr> I think it would be good there, as it's the data behind the graph at the very bottom of the page
[15:33] <craag> You need to register
[15:33] <craag> And then be approved I believe
[15:33] <alxwntr> I thought perhaps it would be useful for people wanting to understand the graph
[15:33] <alxwntr> oh ok - I've registered
[15:33] <alxwntr> I still can't edit, so I guess I must need approval
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[15:34] <craag> Try asking in #habhub
[15:34] <alxwntr> IRC?
[15:35] <craag> yeah
[15:35] <craag> type
[15:35] <craag> /join #habhub
[15:35] <alxwntr> got it
[15:35] <alxwntr> thanks
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[16:24] <Laurenceb> hi RocketBoy
[16:25] <RocketBoy> hey hows i going LB?
[16:25] <RocketBoy> it
[16:26] <Laurenceb> not too bad thanks, got my PhD now :)
[16:26] <Laurenceb> you?
[16:30] <adamgreig> have you graduated and all?
[16:30] <adamgreig> how long did that take in total :P
[16:30] <Laurenceb> 4 years
[16:30] <Laurenceb> brb
[16:31] <adamgreig> ntb
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[16:38] <fxmulder> Laurenceb: that's awesome, congrats
[16:40] <infaddict> well done Laurenceb
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[16:46] <Laurenceb> thanks
[16:46] <Laurenceb> doh now Steve has gone :PO
[16:46] <Laurenceb> yeah I graduated in December
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[16:49] <infaddict> question on flight computer. should i continue to send last known "good" position or revert to my "nofix" sentence if I lose fix?
[16:52] <Geoff-G8DHE> Its much more obvious when seeing the result in fldigi if nofix is sent, the last position will have already have been recieved in most cases
[16:52] <infaddict> yer that was my thinking. i *should* have been sending known positions that hopefully have been received and logged
[16:53] <infaddict> its possible sending out of date positions make me think the payload is somewhere its not
[16:53] <infaddict> i could keep the old time on the sentence but still confusing
[16:53] <Geoff-G8DHE> Only time it might be better is if it was a floater and might have been out of range
[16:54] <Geoff-G8DHE> but for an up,burst,down it seems best to me
[16:54] <infaddict> thx Geoff-G8DHE. really happy with my flight computer now. got a nice tight loop() with no delays and timed data retrieval for gps, temperature and voltage.
[16:54] <infaddict> with interrupt driven RTTY
[16:55] <Geoff-G8DHE> or maybe add the extra field with nofix as an extra
[16:55] <infaddict> only 2 things left to do other than a boat load of testing... 1) fix voltage detector - weird results.... 2) test my RTTY by actually receiving it
[16:55] <Geoff-G8DHE> habitat handles multipile sentences
[16:56] <infaddict> mmm does habitat have inteligence to identify a sentence with lat/long included as being nofix?
[16:56] <infaddict> would it show last known position on map and some sort of indicator its not current?
[16:56] <Geoff-G8DHE> I don't think so
[16:57] <infaddict> mmmm at moment i have nofix sentence which simply includes constant "NOFIX" and temperature/voltage only. my normal sentence has lat/long and altitude added.
[16:58] <infaddict> so i am hoping my balloon doesnt vanish from the map if a NOFIX sentence is received. i am presuming it shows the last known good position with date/time on it.
[16:58] <infaddict> thats whats seems to happen on balloons i see on there now
[16:58] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yes it won't loose the position as such.
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[16:59] <Vaizki> infaddict: I am going to have an 'extra' field where I put the last known good position in case of nofix
[17:00] <infaddict> sure, so you should see that in your decoder software, but on the map it will look like its a valid current fix right
[17:00] <Vaizki> syntax error?
[17:01] <Vaizki> send out 0,0 for lat/lon and put the last fix in the extra field
[17:01] <Vaizki> I don't know how habhub tracker will show that until I test it
[17:02] <infaddict> mmm thats the kind of idea i am toying with but not sure what benefit it gives you (unless all previously tx of your positions didnt work)
[17:02] <infaddict> as you last known position will already be on the map (unless i am mistaken)
[17:03] <Vaizki> well mainly I'm considering the (I think likely) scenario that I will lose LOS before payload loses fix on descent and there is a 'later' good fix in memory at the payload than what has been received
[17:03] <Vaizki> LOS = line of sight if my acronyms fail :)
[17:03] <Geoff-G8DHE> if you send 0,0 for lat/long it will plot that as a position I suspect not sure
[17:03] <Geoff-G8DHE> its certainly valid
[17:03] <Vaizki> Geoff-G8DHE: at least the sentence wizard allows specifying that as a nofix-indication
[17:03] <RocketBoy> ha - Ive retired - all but the randon engoneering stuff
[17:04] <RocketBoy> ignore that
[17:04] <infaddict> sure agree Vaizki that would be useful (esp if you are only person tracking, which should be default assumption i think)
[17:04] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KF5PGW-3 after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KF5PGW-3
[17:04] <Vaizki> the tracker might lose fix on hitting the ground and I don't want to drive around trying to find it without any coordinates being sent out
[17:05] <Vaizki> and the last coords received by a tracking station might be from when it's still 1km up
[17:05] <craag> So why not always send last known good lat/lon, but use the satellites field to indicate current lock status?
[17:05] <craag> (this is what I do)
[17:05] <Vaizki> that would probably work too :)
[17:06] <Vaizki> anyway, I want to keep broadcasting the last known good fix somehow
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[17:08] <pc1pcl> last good fix might have been sent out just when something else was interfering with the signal, so would be good to keep repeating it with e.g. minus 1 sats field?
[17:08] <craag> or '0'
[17:08] <craag> I think I set it to directly send what the ublox gives me
[17:09] <craag> then habitat to only take valid fix as >=5 sats.
[17:09] <Vaizki> I am even considering sending out 3 last good fixes in a packed format in the extra field if there is no fix
[17:10] <Vaizki> that might be a bit overkill though
[17:11] <craag> not a bad idea - although your string is really quite long at that point
[17:11] <pc1pcl> can probably pack quite a bit if you only send out e.g. the leas tsignificant part of the locations.
[17:11] <craag> or deltas :)
[17:13] <Vaizki> yes deltas packed, and well my code also allows me to interrupt a nofix transmission in the middle and start a new one if I get a fix
[17:13] <Vaizki> the sentence output takes 20 seconds but I poll GPS every 2 seconds
[17:13] <craag> I assume you're going to write a parser for this for habitat ;)
[17:14] <Vaizki> no it will just result in one in one incomplete sentence
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[17:15] <Vaizki> so basically in the middle of a sentence I will just send out \n\0\0 and start with new $$...
[17:15] <infaddict> now ive thought about, i think sending last known is very helpful if you are sole tracker and you lose the balloon. so will check habitat docs for options on sentences.
[17:15] <infaddict> thx guys
[17:16] <Vaizki> dl-fldigi at least should throw the incomplete sentence out because of no checksum
[17:16] <Vaizki> and just start on the new
[17:16] <Vaizki> but I am thinking of this reliability first so I might throw out some of this
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[17:17] <pc1pcl> make sure it handles 'good location start sentence' 'oops no lock' 'oh I got lock again, abort current sentence and redo' :)
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[17:31] <Vaizki> I also changed to the transmission infaddict described where the RTTY ISR code keeps a private buffer for the sentence to be sent out and just keeps sending it over and over again. also the radio is being fed directly from the battery and I hardwired the "enable" pin of the NTX2B instead of controlling it from the MCU.
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[17:32] <Vaizki> just for reliability's sake.. if the MCU locks up but interrupts run, it should keep sending out last sentence. if the MCU dies completely the radio should still transmit 'space'.
[17:32] <Vaizki> and even if the battery voltage goes too low for LDO, radio should still keep transmitting
[17:33] <Vaizki> I kind of forgot the only goal of the tracker - finding the payload - there for a while...
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[17:48] <alxwntr> In terms of finding a payload...
[17:48] <alxwntr> I've just been playing with SpaceTracker
[17:48] <alxwntr> it's excellent
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[17:49] <alxwntr> absolutely great hassle-free way of getting a backup locator
[17:49] <alxwntr> up and running in minutes
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[17:49] <alxwntr> and all you need is an old Android
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[17:55] <Ian_> UK based alxwntr?
[17:55] <alxwntr> Yep
[17:55] <alxwntr> I'm in Cardiff
[17:56] <alxwntr> oh, do you mean is the app only for the UK?
[17:56] <Ian_> Fine. As long as it's only a backup tracker for a primary radio tracker then that's ok. GSM devices for tracking are unreliable
[17:57] <Ian_> No I meant where were you based, but we have already ascertained that you aren't in the US trying to fly a gsm tracker which is illegal there I believe.
[17:58] <alxwntr> Oh yes, I see
[17:58] <Ian_> Trouble with gsm devices are that in rough terrain on the floor the chances of picking up a signal is remote. Good chance if your payload is unfortunate to be stuck 20m up a tree of course ;)
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[17:59] <alxwntr> yes, it's my first flight I'm preparing for and I want to give myself as good a chance of getting things back. I don;t mind flyingn the extra 120g if it means I have a better chance of recovery
[18:00] <Ian_> With a radio that is emmitting you aren't relying on a telephone mast receiving a signal, but would be locatable if you drive around on high ground to pick up a signal and then home in on it.
[18:01] <Ian_> The wiki's have oodles of info. More than enough to make you brain hurt a bit.
[18:04] <Ian_> If you start out flying small balloons (jumbo unlubricated) your payload weight will have to be small, your gas bill will be small and you have a super prop if you just want to impress the girls.
[18:05] <alxwntr> Sure, thanks. I've got my circuit breadboarded and have transmitted some sentences and received them on my computer, so I'm getting there. I just am a little shakey about the robustness of my code (not having writen anything liek that before)
[18:05] <alxwntr> But I guess it's always a case of test, test, test...
[18:05] <Ian_> It forces a number of good constraints that you have to meet but keeps you away from having to comply with CAA requirements and seek permissions.
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[18:07] <alxwntr> When you say small balloons, do you mean one-shot, disposable jobs?
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[18:08] <Ian_> Testing is an essential that is often skipped by those who later demonstrate their neglect for the finer points and manage to misplace their payloads after they stop working at launch.
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[18:09] <Ian_> They put it down to adverse conditions. not so much flying in the face of strong winds, but more flying in the face of good advice unheeded.
[18:09] <Ian_> What GPS are you using?
[18:10] <alxwntr> uBlox7-q breakout
[18:10] <alxwntr> from HAB supplies
[18:10] <alxwntr> The thing about small balloons..
[18:10] <Ian_> Ah, yes, I have one of those, but haven't programmed it yet. Life gets in the way from time to time.
[18:10] <alxwntr> if you are refering to fire-and-forget jobs
[18:11] <alxwntr> is that I can't really make the pico trackers myself
[18:11] <alxwntr> my hand's knackered and I can't solder small things :(
[18:11] <alxwntr> but the Uno scale stuff is just about ok
[18:12] <Ian_> Ah, you need to do the breadboarding and find yourself an apprentice that can take instruction.
[18:12] <alxwntr> do you know if anyone makes pre-fab pico trackers I could just let off an d practice the tracking?
[18:12] <alxwntr> heh
[18:12] <alxwntr> that would be nice
[18:12] <alxwntr> maybe I can teach my girlfriend how to solder...
[18:13] <Ian_> There is the Habduino and Pi in the Sky. which Hab supplies make. targeted at schools where time and skilled resources are likely to be in short supply.
[18:14] <Ian_> Women have very nimble fingers as long as they have the patience to learn. it's no accident that a lot of the hand soldering in China and the like is women.
[18:16] <alxwntr> oh I wasn't casting aspersions at women, I just don't think she'd be interested :)
[18:16] <Ian_> I have a group that is a little resistant to new ideas and so we have flown a few condoms with very cheap beacons comprised of temperature and serial numbers.
[18:16] <alxwntr> no gps?
[18:17] <Ian_> Beacon. No GPS. fly that when you stand a chance of getting the package back.
[18:18] <Ian_> The group has to learn about UKHAS tracking and embrace the idea before I'm going to fly a solid tracker. It takes a while for realisation to dawn with some people.
[18:18] <alxwntr> oh cool. Was it a pre-fab piece or did you put it together yourselves?
[18:19] <Ian_> The first beacon was a picaxe chip, tx and DS18B20 sensor hanging together with solder - no board.
[18:19] <Ian_> Two button cells
[18:20] <alxwntr> Heath Robinson :)
[18:20] <Ian_> It introduced the concept and we were able to read the Morse for upwards of 20 minutes.- Very Heath Robinson.
[18:21] <Ian_> I also surmised that if I sped up the Morse, then I could lie through my teeth if I wished to and no one would be the wiser for it :)
[18:21] <alxwntr> ha
[18:22] <Ian_> DL-FLDIGI copied the Morse in the first 5 minutes then gave out. The MkI earhole did significantly better.
[18:23] <alxwntr> what was your tx?
[18:23] <Ian_> Get a team, enthuse the team and slowly work towards your goals. Making 6 ele 70cm Yagis currently. When the evenings get lighter then we will be flying on Gas.
[18:24] <Ian_> For the beacon . . . £1 Chinese. approx legal. Have NTX2B for future flights.
[18:25] <alxwntr> "approx legal"? haha
[18:25] <alxwntr> ebay?
[18:25] <alxwntr> got a link?
[18:25] <Ian_> Hab Supplies for the NTX2B of course
[18:26] <alxwntr> Sure - I have one already
[18:26] <alxwntr> I meant the £1 beacon - sounds like a steal
[18:26] <Vaizki> hmm my ublox says it has 4 satellites inside on my desk but can't even get the time
[18:26] <Ian_> Great for doorbells. http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Set-433Mhz-RF-transmitter-and-receiver-kit-for-Arduino-project-/331422668455
[18:27] <alxwntr> awesome
[18:27] <alxwntr> thanks
[18:27] <Ian_> Not recommended for HAB for a number of good reasons
[18:27] <alxwntr> of course
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[18:27] <Ian_> Understood then!
[18:27] <alxwntr> :)
[18:27] <Ian_> Strictly condom training wheels.
[18:27] <alxwntr> sure
[18:27] <alxwntr> nice talking to you - must have dinner
[18:28] <alxwntr> thanks again
[18:28] <Ian_> Enjoy. Mine is still cooking. Haggis, mach and swede, with gravy of course.
[18:28] <Vaizki> so I am using UBX-NAV-PVT sentence, the numSV is 4 even though there is no fix?
[18:29] <Ian_> You are currently the expert Vaizki
[18:29] <Vaizki> ok.. doesn't feel like it
[18:29] <Ian_> I think that at this time of evening people are eating their tea.
[18:30] <Ian_> Yes but look what you have learned in the last week.
[18:31] <Vaizki> lots. I'm just confused because earlier today the discussion was to use the number of satellites as the fix validity indicator
[18:31] <Vaizki> yet I have 4 with no fix :)
[18:32] <Ian_> It must be possible to have four satellites before a fix. Is there not also a valid fix flag from the Ublox message?
[18:33] <Ian_> I take your point about 4 sats = good. Perhaps craag has yet to reach coincidence . . .
[18:34] <adamgreig> Vaizki: numSV means it's tracking 4 satellites
[18:34] <adamgreig> but does not mean it has enough information or satellites to know where it is
[18:35] <Vaizki> ok hmm
[18:35] <Vaizki> ok I'm an idiot
[18:36] <Vaizki> it's actually 0 sats
[18:36] <Vaizki> I had typoed the the length of one structure member
[18:36] <Ian_> Almanac needs to be downloaded and ephemeris for sats needs to be all valid. You don't lean what you have and become an idiot. Typos are a fact of life
[18:36] <Ian_> learn
[18:37] <Vaizki> yes well I'm 41 years old so I have typo'd some .. just can't read hex dump the way I used to
[18:37] <Ian_> It doesn't get better in the next 25 years, I can assure you.
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[18:38] <Vaizki> hmpf
[18:39] <Ian_> Nowhere that bad though.
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[18:52] <Vaizki> ok I am done berating myself, but a question.. it's suggested I put the UTC time in the sentence and I will, but how is the date handled?
[18:53] <Vaizki> I guess habitat can't just use the current date because a sentence sent at 23:59:55 might not make it to habitat until "the next day"
[18:53] <Vaizki> so is there smart detection of date wrapping or do I need to account for it?
[18:54] <adamgreig> habitat stores the time irrespective of a date
[18:54] <adamgreig> and separately habitat stores the exact date and time the message was parsed, and that it was received by each receiver
[18:54] <Vaizki> ok so I'm fine with just the date
[18:54] <Vaizki> TIME
[18:55] <adamgreig> yes
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[19:03] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-35 after 037 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-35
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[19:05] <Reb-SM0ULC> Pretty impressive results with WSPR from the PS-* balloons.
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[19:14] <infaddict> if i wanted to measure frequency/duty cycle of my PWM, where exactly do i put my DMM. red to the PWM pin and black to ground?
[19:14] <adamgreig> yea
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[19:15] <infaddict> bah i thought as much - not getting anything
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[19:15] <adamgreig> red needs to go to the right pin on your dmm
[19:18] <infaddict> nope sommick not right. getting 0hz and duty.
[19:19] <Vaizki> what are you outputting?
[19:19] <adamgreig> maybe just measure the voltage
[19:19] <infaddict> im supposed to be outputting a high vs low signal for sending bits at 50 baud
[19:19] <infaddict> yer just doing voltage no
[19:19] <Vaizki> oh ok well the DMM is going to have a hard time with that
[19:19] <Vaizki> because every 20ms your frequency and duty cycle changes
[19:20] <infaddict> yer first time ive had a DMM with frequency so wasnt sure of what they can handle
[19:20] <mclane_> you probably need a low pass filter tosee the dc component
[19:20] <mclane_> with a dmm
[19:20] <infaddict> weird voltage reading too. -64mV
[19:21] <Vaizki> infaddict: I suggest you toggle a pin every time the ISR is entered
[19:21] <Vaizki> that way you should see 25Hz on that pin
[19:21] <infaddict> ok thx Vaizki lemme try that and see what readings i get
[19:22] <infaddict> so toggle 0 to 255 right?
[19:22] <Vaizki> no, I mean use a digital pin
[19:23] <Vaizki> well I guess it's the same to use 0 and 255.. but 0 is not always true zero PWM on arduino
[19:23] <Vaizki> found out the hard way
[19:23] <infaddict> ok i can use digitalWrite
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[19:26] <Vaizki> so question about GPS time and fix.. if I have a valid UTC time but no valid fix, should I transmit the new time with old valid fix? or also old time (time of last valid fix)
[19:27] <infaddict> aha voltage now 1.56V
[19:27] <Vaizki> what count is your DMM?
[19:28] <infaddict> 25.03Hz
[19:28] <infaddict> yay
[19:28] <Vaizki> close enuff
[19:28] <infaddict> sry Vaizki what is count?
[19:28] <infaddict> duty cycle 50%
[19:28] <infaddict> so think my timers and interrupts are working
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[19:29] <Vaizki> yes looks like it
[19:29] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:29] <Vaizki> infaddict: http://www.tek.com/document/whitepaper/understanding-handheld-dmm-specifications
[19:29] <Vaizki> just a measure of display accuracy
[19:30] <cambazz> hey what was the name of the site that used noaa data to plot baloon tracks on weather forecast
[19:30] <Vaizki> apparently at least 4000 counts on your DMM :)
[19:30] <infaddict> Vaizki: on your gps q, i think it depends if you want to see the time of last known good fix. might be useful to see when that was (e.g. 30 mins ago)
[19:30] <infaddict> if the sentence id is still incrementing you know its still tx'ing
[19:30] <Vaizki> infaddict: yes, on the other hand seeing a good time pop up would indicate a fix being acquired
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[19:31] <Vaizki> but so does satcount
[19:31] <infaddict> true
[19:31] <Vaizki> actually my GPS now has good time but 0 sats
[19:31] <infaddict> yep i get that every time i start up
[19:31] <infaddict> almost to the second i get: no time, valid time, fix
[19:32] <infaddict> spread across around 4 mins from cold
[19:32] <infaddict> a nice green LED now alerts me to a good fix ;-)
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[19:34] <infaddict> cambazz: do you mean this? http://predict.habhub.org/
[19:34] <Zeusking19> Hi guys, the solution I got regarding my arduino problem the other day (missing format specifier, %s etcetc) seems to not be working, as instead of printing my callsign it is printing this: "$$L$$%s"
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[19:35] <Zeusking19> So in place of "L$$%s" i'd be expecting my callsign
[19:35] <Zeusking19> Willing to put my code on pastebin if it helps
[19:35] <infaddict> sounds like a print problem
[19:36] <infaddict> or you've ran out of memory
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[19:36] <infaddict> whats the code to put callsign into the string?
[19:36] <Zeusking19> http://pastebin.com/6zeRRdmD
[19:37] <infaddict> might need a \0 on end of your callsign string
[19:37] <Zeusking19> tried that, returns "$$,"
[19:38] <daveake> Change char callsign[] = {'B4YM1LL'}; to be char *callsign = "B4YM1LL"
[19:38] <Vaizki> yup
[19:39] <infaddict> i'd bet a pint on daveake
[19:39] <daveake> change char checksum_str[6]; to be char checksum_str[8];
[19:39] <infaddict> also do you need comma in front of checksum?
[19:39] <infaddict> as checksum wont match then
[19:40] <Vaizki> no
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[19:40] <Vaizki> get rid of it
[19:40] <infaddict> yep remove , in your checksum printf
[19:40] <daveake> yup
[19:40] <infaddict> should be: "*%04X\n"
[19:44] <Vaizki> hmm, the GPS clock is still running from 0:0:0 up with no time fix
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[19:53] <SpeedEvil> http://www.c-span.org/video/?324519-1/hearing-future-us-space-exploration&live=
[19:57] <Vaizki> also I don't think this ublox is ever going to consider it's utc time invalid after it gets it and sets the RTC
[19:57] <Vaizki> I wrapped the GPS in triple foil 20 minutes ago and it still has a fully accurate time according to output
[19:58] <Vaizki> = according to 'valid' field in UBX-NAV-PVT
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[20:01] <Zeusking19> daveake - sorry for not responding sooner, your suggestion worked great, thanks!
[20:02] <daveake> cool
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[20:03] <Zeusking19> now I have to figure out why nothing is being added after the checksum
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[20:04] <Zeusking19> whups
[20:04] <Zeusking19> callsign*
[20:04] <Zeusking19> checksum is still there
[20:04] <Vaizki> so 'time' field in my sentences.. before a valid time is gotten from GPS, send a) time since boot; or b) 00:00:00 constantly?
[20:04] <Vaizki> Zeusking19: you commented it out
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[20:04] <Zeusking19> I know, but I have just uncommented part of it
[20:04] <Zeusking19> specifically ", uptime"
[20:04] <Vaizki> well you ned to put %d for uptime etc
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[20:05] <Vaizki> in the format string
[20:05] <Vaizki> or actually %ul for the uptime
[20:05] <cambazz> has anyone tried a system to outlet gas from balloon at a certain altitude
[20:05] <Vaizki> but don't use millis() :D
[20:05] <Zeusking19> any better suggestion?
[20:06] <Vaizki> uptime++;
[20:06] <daveake> The sentence ID gives you an indication of uptime
[20:06] <daveake> Not sure why you'd need more
[20:06] <Zeusking19> I was going to use it as a sentence ID but given that point I won't bother
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[20:08] <Vaizki> millis is going to run in the millions during your filght, just extra bytes to send that you don't need
[20:08] <Zeusking19> fair enough
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[20:35] <Vaizki> ok so payload works fine at battery voltage down to 4.3V, then down to 4.1V with a shift in RTTY frequency.. below 4.1V I lose the NTX2B because Vcc on the board goes below 3.0V
[20:36] <Vaizki> so with 4xAA lithiums, that should be ok?
[20:37] <Vaizki> looking at the data sheet it looks like they are going to be empty at 1.1V but no idea how temperature might affect output voltage
[20:38] <Vaizki> hmm internal resistance probably goes up so the voltage will drop?
[20:38] <craag> How much current are you drawing from them?
[20:39] <Vaizki> 60mA
[20:39] <craag> You'll be fine.
[20:40] <craag> 4.1V / 4 = 1.025V
[20:40] <Vaizki> which doesn't vary with battery voltage (LD1117v33)
[20:41] <craag> When they get that low, you're <5% capacity anyway.
[20:41] <craag> 60mA is nothing for them
[20:41] <Vaizki> yea well 4.1V is pretty on the edge. waterfall gets really dirty at that point
[20:42] <craag> LDO, 1V dropout.
[20:42] <Vaizki> but at 4.2V it's still quite clean
[20:42] <craag> Ha
[20:42] <Vaizki> ?
[20:42] <daveake> "L" hmmm
[20:42] <Vaizki> yea I can still swap that out. these are what I have :)
[20:42] <craag> You could swap it out for a proper LDO and get away with 3x AA ;)
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[20:43] <daveake> yup
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[20:49] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP5NVX after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP5NVX
[20:51] <Vaizki> hmm, suggestions on LDO? MCP1702 or something even better?
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[21:14] <Vaizki> ok what the.. I'm not sure this LDO is any good at all? I'm seeing 80mV noise on the output
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[21:28] <SpeedEvil> do you have capacitators.
[21:30] <Vaizki> yes 22uF caps on Vin and Vout
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[21:31] <mattbrejza> 80mV seems fine?
[21:31] <Vaizki> ok well I'm asking because I have no idea :)
[21:32] <Vaizki> 2.4% of 3.3V
[21:33] <mattbrejza> also how much of that noise is from the scope/probe/environment etc
[21:33] <Vaizki> Output Noise Voltage 100uV in the data sheet
[21:33] <Vaizki> but.. I was just going to say.. breadboarded
[21:34] <mattbrejza> 100uV/(Hz)^.5?
[21:35] <Vaizki> I have no idea (again) sorry.. I was trying to decipher the data sheet where it would state expected stability of output voltage
[21:35] <mattbrejza> its fine :P
[21:35] <mattbrejza> providing there is 3.3V ontop of that 80mV noise
[21:36] <SpeedEvil> 100uv/sqrt(hz) over 0-10MHz is ~80mV
[21:36] <SpeedEvil> What does the output noise look like?
[21:37] <Vaizki> yea my power supply I was running it from earlier seems to also have about 50mV of noise
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[21:37] <Vaizki> SpeedEvil: I'm not sure what you're asking? my scope is old so no screenshots
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> if you turn the timebase up, the noise looks different.
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> At some point, you get so that there are no vertical lines shown - but 45 degree or so slopes are about the maximum.
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> At this point, the maximum frequency in the signal is approximately 1/2 divisions.
[21:40] <Vaizki> oh ok right, so this is pretty fast noise at about 40Mhz.. :D
[21:41] <Vaizki> I think this is beyond my scope tbh
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> What is the input PSU/
[21:42] <Vaizki> it's a 60MHz scope, it's just falling apart trying to divvy up time
[21:42] <craag> Do you have any caps but the 22uF?
[21:43] <Vaizki> input is an adjustable dc power supply
[21:43] <Vaizki> craag: only on the 8MHz crystal but nothing between Vcc and Gnd
[21:43] <craag> Might be worth trying a low-value ceramic or two if you're seeing RF noise.
[21:44] <SpeedEvil> Vaizki: measure the input pSu - what does it showw
[21:44] <Vaizki> SpeedEvil: it does have about 50mV of noise as I mentioned above
[21:44] Action: SpeedEvil should read more scroll
[21:45] <Vaizki> so I was running it directly from the PSU @ 3.3V, now running through regulator @ 6V input (4 x AA)
[21:45] <Vaizki> only reason I started to look at what the power looked like was because ublox doesn't get UTC time lock when run from the regulator
[21:46] <Vaizki> but gets it when run from the PSU @ 3.3V
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[21:46] <Vaizki> but it's inside on my desk
[21:46] <Vaizki> so it shouldn't really be getting anything here
[21:47] <Vaizki> so my power is probably fine, just maybe need a better LDO to squeeze out the last of the batteries
[21:47] <cambazz> Vaizki: I got that thing from circuits @ home
[21:47] <cambazz> for this purpose
[21:48] <Vaizki> that thing you do?
[21:48] <Vaizki> translated: what thing?
[21:48] <cambazz> http://www.circuitsathome.com/products-page/power-supplies
[21:49] <cambazz> and in sparkfun, there is one with lowest startup voltage
[21:49] <cambazz> nd something one sec
[21:50] <Vaizki> oh I have dc-dc converters from ebay, not very lightweifht though
[21:50] <cambazz> ncp1402
[21:50] <cambazz> they will work down to 1V
[21:50] <cambazz> these are not really dc-dc converters but charge pumps
[21:50] <Vaizki> ah
[21:51] <Vaizki> ok well that would be nice, does it do 100mA?
[21:51] <cambazz> the one in circuits at home does 120ma
[21:52] <cambazz> what are you planning to do?
[21:52] <Vaizki> yes I read that.. not bad
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[21:52] <Vaizki> well right now I just want to untether this prototype from my desk
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[21:52] <Vaizki> so I can take it outside for a lock and listen to it
[21:53] <infaddict> can u supply via usb laptop?
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[21:53] <Vaizki> aaand now it's running on 4xAA
[21:53] <Vaizki> whee
[21:53] <Vaizki> infaddict: this is finland, it's raining freezing water outside
[21:54] <Vaizki> board goes into plastic bag and outside in 5mins :)
[21:54] <infaddict> ok when raining here i do same with USB cable running 1m thru door and works great
[21:54] <Vaizki> btw, same 80mV noise when powered from 4xAA (alcaline)
[21:55] <SpeedEvil> Vaizki: have you posted the physical construction- a picture of your breadboard?
[21:55] <Babs_> how many vias is too many vias?
[21:56] <zyp> in general, you can't have too many
[21:56] <SpeedEvil> Ask your board house
[21:57] <SpeedEvil> They may constrain the number to a maximum.
[21:57] <zyp> unless your board house have limits or fees for lots of drills
[21:57] <SpeedEvil> Overuse of vias can increase track impedence
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[21:58] <Vaizki> SpeedEvil: no not yet
[21:58] <Babs_> just trying to get a view on whether this board i have is laid out baadly/ok/well
[21:59] <zyp> Babs_, are you talking ground vias or layer changes per signal?
[22:00] <Vaizki> ok here goes nothing
[22:00] <infaddict> Vaizki, any idea how long your ublox takes to respond to UBX request for data? Im requesting PVT message (92 length) and it takes around 800-900ms
[22:00] <Vaizki> payload is outside for the first time
[22:00] <infaddict> from request to full msg recv
[22:01] <Vaizki> well I just took it off the debug serials and carriet it outside
[22:01] <Vaizki> ok it got UTC time
[22:02] <Vaizki> still no lock... or my code is buggy
[22:02] <infaddict> mine takes 4 mins in clear garden
[22:02] <infaddict> from cold
[22:02] <infaddict> UTC within 20 secs but fix much longer
[22:03] <zyp> Vaizki, it takes time to download the almanac
[22:03] <infaddict> yep
[22:03] <Babs_> zyp. don't know, just the vias i get from running the autorouter
[22:03] <zyp> IIRC a full broadcast of the almanac takes around a minute (or maybe it was half)
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[22:03] <zyp> so that's the best case time for lock from a cold start
[22:04] <zyp> assuming you can get everything without dropping any data, which won't happen in practice
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[22:04] <infaddict> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_to_first_fix
[22:07] <Vaizki> well still no lock..
[22:07] <Vaizki> I know it can take time because I have no cell battery on it
[22:07] <Vaizki> to backup the RTC+almanac+ephemeris
[22:07] <zyp> Babs_, oh, that's bound to be bad
[22:08] <zyp> autorouters don't tend to be very useful for such low-complexity designs
[22:08] <Vaizki> ok it has 5 satellites but no fix apparently
[22:08] <infaddict> guys is 3mm nylon braided line ok for attaching payload to chute/balloon? or too thick/thin?
[22:08] <Vaizki> sounds too thick
[22:08] <daveake> too thick
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[22:09] <infaddict> ok mine sets the gpsOK bit when it gets to 3-4 sats
[22:09] <infaddict> ah right what size should i go for?
[22:09] <daveake> Steve sells some stuff that's 1.2 or 1.5mm iirc
[22:09] <infaddict> dont know balloon size yet, but wondered about this
[22:10] <Vaizki> http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Stuff.html
[22:10] <Vaizki> 1mm there
[22:10] <Vaizki> infaddict: why do you set a gps ok flag even if you don't have a fix?
[22:10] <infaddict> Vaizki: the ublox returs that flag for me i dont set it
[22:10] <infaddict> what message are you querying?
[22:10] <Vaizki> NAV-PVT
[22:10] <infaddict> ok in there is a status bitfield
[22:11] <infaddict> and in that is a fix flag
[22:11] <infaddict> thats what you need to check
[22:11] <Vaizki> yes, and I look at the lowest bit there
[22:11] <Vaizki> could be just my code bugging again :)
[22:11] <infaddict> checking my code as i might be getting it wrong
[22:12] <infaddict> There is a FixType field in that message
[22:12] <infaddict> 3 is good fix
[22:12] <infaddict> thats what i check (plus i add num of sats >= 4 for good measure)
[22:13] <infaddict> The bitfield i was thinking of was the Valid field and thats just for date/time
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[22:14] <infaddict> yep so steve has 1mm (22.5kg breaking) and 1.5mm (45kg breaking) nylon
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[22:25] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VZK-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VZK-1
[22:26] <Vaizki> ha!
[22:26] <Vaizki> and spot on
[22:27] <Babs_> looks cold up there
[22:28] <Vaizki> yea well not everything is wired in right now :)
[22:31] <Vaizki> but this calls for a celebratory refreshment
[22:38] <Vaizki> it's actually on a windowsill, not even outside right now
[22:38] <Vaizki> and the accuracy is very very good
[22:41] <Vaizki> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/367935/Photo%2024-02-15%2023%2058%2007.jpg
[22:42] <Vaizki> not too pretty but it works...
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[22:53] <darthsimon123> well, congrats to you, Vaizki, my gps is still not working, receiving only one satellite. It's outside, quite far away from anything metal and powered by a battery - ripple < 50mVpp.... :-/
[22:54] <Vaizki> well I went with a fool-proof Upu-grade gps package there as you can see
[22:55] <Vaizki> what gps are you using then?
[22:55] <darthsimon123> Yeah - I've got exactly the same one. That's why it's bothering me so much :-D
[22:55] <Vaizki> oh the one with the filter+lna?
[22:55] <darthsimon123> Yep
[22:55] <Vaizki> hmm
[22:55] <Vaizki> it gets UTC time though?
[22:56] <darthsimon123> sometimes... and sometimes it even gets a sort-of-fix using two GPS satellites and one GLONASS...
[22:56] <Vaizki> ok that's weird.
[22:57] <Vaizki> what else do you have in the payload?
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[23:01] <darthsimon123> just the gps, a raspberry pi to send me the data via wifi, a rather large lipo cell and a voltage regulators for pi and gps
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[23:02] <daveake> I'm counting 4 things with the potential to interfere with GPS
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[23:09] <darthsimon123> daveake, do you mean like radio interference or electronic interference? Anyways, i'll try to seperate those things a bit tomorrow...
[23:12] <Vaizki> wifi? really?
[23:13] <darthsimon123> it is just meant for testing purposes... and as it is rather cold here i didn't want to take my whole equipment outside
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[23:16] <darthsimon123> obviously it's not the final payload, that one will of course have "proper" radio transmitters (NTX2)
[23:16] <daveake> radio
[23:18] <darthsimon123> ok, then i'll try to put the gps a bit away from the rest - thanks for the hint!
[23:18] <Vaizki> darthsimon123: try hooking the ublox so that you only give it 3.3V + GND and hook up a led to the TP pin
[23:18] <Vaizki> the TP pin should output a pulse every second when the GPS has a good fix
[23:19] <Vaizki> remember to use a resistor with the led
[23:19] <Vaizki> or just hook it up to an usb ttl-serial converter (3.3v!) and see what's going on with the ublox when there is no raspi
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[23:22] <darthsimon123> fine, i won't get a chance to solder that together right now, but i'll definitely try that as well as soon as i can
[23:22] <Vaizki> I would just breadboard it, I've just proven it can be done :)
[23:22] <darthsimon123> :-D
[23:23] <Vaizki> !dial vzk-1
[23:23] <SpacenearUS> 03Vaizki: Can't find a flight doc matching your query
[23:24] <Vaizki> ah ok requires flight doc
[23:24] <darthsimon123> but still i don't have access to the stuff right now. or at least not without waking up a bunch of people ;-)
[23:26] <Vaizki> ah ok
[23:26] <Vaizki> so did you put a proto board on top of the pi and solder the gps on there?
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[23:30] <darthsimon123> the gps and converters are on a seperate board with the raspi connected by a ribbon cable: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ol5wk25trvvw3qa/11021405_652293664896749_76987078689910531_o.jpg?dl=0
[23:31] <Vaizki> duct tape? you wrapped the gps in duct tape?
[23:31] <Vaizki> or duck tape.. take your pick :)
[23:32] <Vaizki> well I guess it's not a problem.. hmm :)
[23:33] <darthsimon123> isn't that just some adhesive plastic? but i can try to remove that as well next time - just bare-bones ;-)
[23:34] <darthsimon123> i mean without anything interfering with radio in it...
[23:35] <darthsimon123> hmm, wikipedia says "the usual gray color comes from powdered aluminum mixed into the LDPE.".... mhmmm...
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[00:00] --- Wed Feb 25 2015